actually. >> president trump has never been sweatier. >> really? >> yeah. >> he is sopping wet and hopping mad. >> you lost. >> only the fool would think that. >> an interview so heated trump starts melting. >> excuse me. >> excuse me. >> he is like a pumpkin slathered in margarine. >> let's finish up the interview. >> history's two greasiest men go head to head. >> oh, my goodness. it is 6:00 a.m. look how beautiful it is. >> yeah, the lights are on. >> it is really nice. >> people are getting to work inside the white house. >> it is friday, april the 22nd. look, it is sunrise. it is absolutely beautiful in washington, just like it was onset there with donald trump. i saw somebody say that he actually, his people were spritzing him during the break with baby oil.

>> ooh, okay. >> that was -- >> come on. >> that was some rough stuff there. i'm not going to lie. >> we'll see what it turns out to be. we have a big story out of washington, d.c. this morning where house minority leader kevin mccarthy is backed into a corner. >> so, willie, you want to talk about sweating. >> oh. >> wow. >> i mean this guy, woo-wee. speaker kevin, we hardly knew ye. >> yeah. yesterday he adamantly denied. >> how about that? >> what's that, willie? >> how about that, there's evidence on tape but he's still going with the argument that i didn't say that. the things you are hearing and seeing me say did not actually happen, the words of kevin mccarthy. >> yeah, it is unbelievable. >> unbelievable. he denied it, as willie said, reported from a new book by political reporters alex burns and jonathan martin that mccarthy wanted donald trump out after the january 6th capitol attack. it is a logical thought, by the way, and reaction to that attack --

>> everybody else was saying the same thing at the time. >> mccarthy had a call with house leadership in the days after the attack in which he said he planned to call donald trump and tell him it was time for him to go. >> yeah. >> but the denial from his team yesterday was in no uncertain terms. his spokesman saying, quote, mccarthy never said he would call trump to say he should resign. >> lordy, lordy, lordy. there are tapes. >> yeah. the authors of the tape provided the audio to msnbc, and just ahead we are going to play that for you. >> willie, i'll tell you what else we are going to do. we are going to talk about -- like kevin -- what did donald call him? >> steve. i think he still thinks he is steve. >> yeah, steve, steve mccarthy, the former future speaker of the house. he -- 2016, remember all of the republican leaders were together and he said that donald trump was on the payroll of vladimir putin. >> yes. >> and he said, swear to god,

guys, swear to god, i think he is. they denied that. kevin denied that. was shown a transcript of that. he said it was fake news. then they played him the tape. >> right. >> and it is the same thing. like again, willie, these people, donald trump, mike, kevin, steve, whatever his name is, and it seems about half of the republicans in congress, it is like they think that videotape has not been created yet, that like cassette tapes are just around the corner, but nobody can actually record their spoken words, and they just keep lying. >> how about that picture we're looking at right now? it is another example. he said, according to the book and according to burns and martin in the new book, that he was annoyed that there was a picture of his visit on january 28, 2021. he didn't want people to know. he wanted donald trump to know that, hey, we're okay, but he

didn't want the world to know that he had gone down there. but, yes, the sequence of events here is astounding. you have the reporting from the book. by the way, that original piece we talked about yesterday said there were tapes, and yet kevin mccarthy went out and said i absolutely, unequivocally did not say that to which jonathan martin and alex burns say, here are the tapes. >> right. >> so the question will be does kevin mccarthy pay a price for that, will donald trump come out and say something, or will republicans hold it against him or can he get away with saying in his bubble, it didn't happen, it is the corporate media, it is the liberals out to get me, even though it is on tape? >> yeah. well, we are going to talk about that and we have john heilemann coming up in a minute, mika. but first, joe biden announced another big package yesterday. >> yes, $800 million aid package for ukraine, the second in two weeks. according to the department of defense, this latest package is tailored to meet the needs of ukrainian forces after russian

troops began a new offensive in the eastern part of the country. this latest aid includes 72 howitzers and 144,000 rounds of artillery. dozens of tactical vehicles and drones, field equipment and spare parts along with other items that will remain secret. >> in the past two months we have moved weapons and equipment to ukraine at record speed. we've sent thousands of anti-armor, anti-missile helicopter, drones, machine guns, rifles, radar systems. we won't always be able to advertise everything our partners are doing to support ukraine in the fight for freedom, but to modernize teddy roosevelt's famous advice, sometimes we will speak softly and carry a large javelin because we're sending in a lot of those as well. >> there you go. according to the department of defense the u.s. has committed more than $4 billion in security assistance to ukraine since the

beginning of the biden administration. >> yeah. you know, willie, reports, initial reports are after the ukrainians were trained on the howitzers they turned to their u.s. trainers and said, we like these. these work. >> yeah. >> they were very positive in their up close inspection of the howitzers. >> they certainly were. president zelenskyy said something along the same lines to president biden, which is thank you, this is what we've been waiting for. we have heard that urgency from president zelenskyy maybe saying, these are the arms that you are giving us, there are a lot of them but they're not what we need. now he is saying, this is the stuff we are looking for. >> yeah. >> it all comes in the context of another grim discovery in ukraine. new satellite images show what appear to be mass graves near the besieged city of mariupol. pictures released yesterday by the u.s. technology firm maxar reveal more than 200, 200 graves in the russian-occupied village about 12 miles from the port

city. according to maxar, the graves were dug in late march and have been expanded in recent weeks. the city's mayor accused russian forces of, quote, hiding their military crimes by taking the bodies of civilians and burying them there. in a telegram message, members of the mariupol city council say they believe as many as 9,000 civilians are buried in those graves. ukrainian officials estimate 20,000 civilians have been killed in mariupol since the invasion began, and said the new grave site appears to be significantly larger than the plots discovered after russian troops retreated from bucha. local officials also saying the discovery of the graves is more evidence of war crimes by the russians. so, joe, sadly this is what most people expected to see once there were some eyes on mariupol after the russian invasion and the siege there. bucha, those images haunting and horrifying, and now we're seeing them in mariupol. >> right. and obviously the russians have

many strategic reasons to try to hold mariupol, but they also have just a more base reason, and that is so vladimir putin can cover up his war crimes, just the atrocities on a monumental scale. >> so we have so many different angles to get to here. with us we have the president of the council on foreign relations, richard haass is going to talk a little bit about what is the end game here. and former nato supreme allied commander, retired four star navy admiral james stavridis. he's chief international security and diplomacy analyst for nbc news and msnbc. >> and, of course, by the rules of "morning joe," admiral stavridis has one or two more stars on his shoulder so we need to start with him. hope you are already with that, richard haass. you have the green jacket with your sleepy hole owe country club. >> we like that. >> that's important, but i think we need to start with the

admiral here. admiral, obviously we have heard about the howitzers. we heard what joe biden said yesterday, heard what zelenskyy said in return. now this, as willie said, it is paraphrasing, this is what we have needed for sometime. i'm just curious. we've spent the first four weeks of this war hearing about how the russians, it was inevitable that the russians would take over kyiv. i was skeptical. now we're hearing it is inevitable that the russians, because of mass -- i love what you say, that i think you say quantity has a quality all of its own. i think it does in normal circumstances, and you certainly know better than any of us here. that said, you are looking at this new equipment coming in, these new weapons coming in. you look at a russian military that -- whose morale is about as

low as, my god, any -- maybe the germans in retreat from russia, from the soviet union, maybe that matches how low their morale is. but, my god, i just don't think it is a given that putin gets what he wants in the donbas. tell me, how are you sizing up the early stages of this campaign? >> first and foremost, war is the most unpredictable of human activities, right, because of all of the attendant variables that are so difficult to quantify. you have put your finger on the most important one, the center of gravity in this fight remains the will and determination of the ukrainian people, kind of personified by this remarkable churchillian president who has emerged. when you couple that, joe, to the kind of package and foot race to get the weapon systems in the hands of the ukrainians

that we're seeing right now, which is being won. this is a foot race of our logisticians against the logisticians of russia. those are two powerful factors that would tell us we don't know how this is going to come out, and i wouldn't bet against the ukrainians. certainly holding those lines and being able to blunt a major russian offensive. but, joe, on the other hand there is a significant amount of combat power that is flowing forward. it is not well-managed combat power. it is certainly not well-led combat power. it doesn't have the kind of motivation that the ukrainians have on their side of those lines, but it is big, it is forceful, it is concentrated, and it has the will of vladimir putin behind it, because i don't see much quit in vladimir putin. so bottom line, it is a balance.

i'll close by saying these mass graves we are talking about potentially could be something that start to move other segments of global opinion here. remember in the balkans, 1995, 8,000 men and boys killed in the balkans in the town of serbonitza. it helped shift the global sense of what is going on. i wouldn't under estimate that as an information pivot point here. we are at an inflection point and an unpredictable one. he wouldn't bet against the ukrainians at this point. >> could you answer a larger question for me? obviously you know military history so well and russian history so well. why is it that whether you go back to the beginning of the 20th century with russia's war with the japanese, you talk about world war i, even the early stages of world war ii,

the russian troops just usually seem to dramatically underperform expectations. do you have any operating theories on why that has been their history? obviously in world war ii without 26 million russians dying in that battle we would not have gotten to normandy in june of '44. i certainly do understand that. but that was a fight to the death, but when they're invading other than czechoslovakia in '56 and hungary in '68, they're not good at it. they weren't good at it in afghanistan obviously in '79. >> yeah, it is hard to point to the kind of overwhelming tactical victory on the part of russian forces, and you are right to point out the russo/japanese war in 1904. by the way, our president at the

time, teddy roosevelt, gets the nobel peace prize for negotiating an end to that conflict. so often with russia they throw huge amounts of military power. it is a vast country with great strategic depth, and it has been that they don't take advantage. they try to grind their opponents into powder. if we put the tools in the hands of the ukrainians i think there's every reason to believe

they will hold on to the vast majority of their country here. it will be another defeat to russia. >> to that points, richard haass, you have a piece out about the west really needing to define success in ukraine, figure out what an end game is. there's been a lot of discussion on this show that the strategy basically right now basically just by default because there aren't any better ones is to wear the russians down, as admiral stavridis was talking about, completely supply them with weapons until they push the russians out. i don't see the russians then saying, okay, let's just go home now. that doesn't seem like an end. how do you define success in ukraine? what are the options? >> it is a big question, mika. what is so interesting is two months into the war almost no one has asked it. think about it in the conversations here and everywhere else. 99% of them have been about what are we providing ukraine, are we providing them enough, should we

have a no-fly zone, what have you, more sanctions. it has almost not been about success. is it to get the russians out of ukraine? if that's what it is about, are you talking about where things stood two months ago or eight years ago. do we want them out of the east and south and crimea? that's ambitious. is it to make sure russia can't keep what it has gained this time over the last two months because right now they have gained a lot more than they had two months ago when this began in february. is it to get back to where we were. then the question is do we insist that this be a peace agreement. are we comfortable with the possibility there might not be any battle ship missouri ceremony here? indeed, i find it really hard to imagine some outcome that would be enough for russia and not too much for ukraine. so i actually can't imagine. i don't have the imagination

right now to imagine a formal peace agreement. i know everybody would like one in principle. >> right. >> so this could be a very, very long war. my view is simply one of the things i take from having observed or studies the history of war is it is important not simply to let events on the ground dictate policy, i think now the united states, its allies, ukraine need to start having really serious conversations about what is it exactly our definition of success is, what are our goals, what will it take to get there, what are we trying to avoid, and we had better be prepared more than anything else for a long, long war. >> yeah. i'm sure you are right, richard. i will say maybe it is just the lawyer in me, always mediating in my mind. it is hard for me to imagine a peace deal that at the end doesn't end up giving russia part of the donbas that they've been fighting for for eight years, acknowledging crimea and

the neutrality of ukraine, which means they won't be a nato member but they can be an eu member. of course, willie, that would be offensive to both sides now, but if we're talking about the war coming to an end it is hard to imagine any other conclusion to the war. again, it will be -- that is offensive to both sides, which means that's probably -- if putin ever wants peace -- where it is going to end up. let's go back six weeks. just six weeks ago if you said, what are the three things that the united states and the west want in this war, it would be the survival of zelenskyy as president of ukraine, because that was very much in doubt six weeks ago. >> yeah. >> the survival of kyiv as the capital of ukraine, because that certainly was -- nobody thought kyiv was going to hold up against this onslaught six weeks ago. the third thing would be the survival of something called

ukraine, whether it was half of ukraine or three-fourths of ukraine, that's where we were six weeks ago. the fact now that these outlines for a peace deal that i just laid out would be offensive to most ukrainians and most in the west shows how much the dynamics have changed on the battlefield since the beginning of april -- the beginning of march, excuse me. >> yeah, no question about it. i mean there was supposed to be a victory parade for the russians in kyiv about a month ago, and now they're scrambling for the border and reframing the terms of this debate. but, richard haass, vladimir putin as you have said cannot accept defeat. he has presented this to his people as a great crusade to bring russian people home, to reunite them with their homeland. he can't walk away with nothing. so to take on the question that you present in your new piece this morning, from the united states' point of view what is acceptable? what should the united states be willing to say, okay, russia, you can have that, but not this?

>> it is a big question. as you say, you know, it only took vladimir putin to start this war. it takes certainly putin as well as ukraine to end it. as you both pointed out, the process of war, fighting war tends to harden positions. what might have been acceptable two months ago won't be acceptable now. i don't think, for example, putin should be allowed to keep the entire donbas, essentially what he is sitting on now and establish a land bridge to crimea. it seems to me that would be too much of a reward for aggression and it would leave a kind of ukraine that wouldn't be sovereign in any, i believe, real sense. i think they need to be rolled back. ukraine needs to claw back some of what russia has gained. certainly ukraine would insist on that. the problem is, willie, as you asked, i don't think vladimir putin could or would ever accept that. he is worried about the appearance of looking weak, of

not having succeeded, which, again, is why i find it really hard to imagine he is going to put his pen to paper and sign an agreement like joe says because, among other things, he would then have to accept the permanence of a sovereign ukraine unless the piece of paper was worthless. in some ways it is easier for wars to continue, to have de facto arrangements than it is for people to take ownership of agreements that give them less than they think they need politically. interestingly enough, that might have applied for different reasons to both zelenskyy and putin. each now have to meet, if you will, their own publics as they see them. so, again, i find it really hard to imagine a formal end. think about also some other wars we have had. the korean war never had a formal end. here we are three-quarters of a century later. in some ways the gulf war didn't. in some wars they do a formal end like afghanistan the papers that are signed are meaningless.

again, we may have to think about something that is much more open ended, low level fighting continuing, occasional flare ups. then we have to think about what does u.s. foreign policy look like towards russia in that environment and towards europe in that environment. this could be a long-term game changer for europe and for the united states. >> you know, david ignatius recently sanctioned david ignatius by russia has a piece for "the washington post" entitled "are biden and putin agreeing on limits to the war? just read their statements." here is what the newly sanctioned op-ed columnist writes. quote, the latest statements by president vladimir putin and president biden offer public descriptions of each side's goals in ways that may reduce the risk of miscalculation, perhaps setting the parameters for what the cold war strategist would have called an agreed battle. putin's new message is

retrenchment. biden's message by contrast has become more assertive, stepping up u.s. military aid. putin's renewed emphasis on the donbas with its implicit message of limited war aims could reduce some of the pressures for escalation. let's end right there because there was -- admiral, i thought it was very telling. david ignatius talked about in this column, which we have reprinted it in its entirety for everybody to have me read, but i will let them go ahead and read it. but he talked about a young girl from the donbas coming to see him, and he was quietly assuring her, don't worry, things are going to go back to normal soon. this is why we had to fight the neo-nazis. it wasn't for kyiv. it wasn't for this, it was for your home region. so vladimir putin is signaling that to his own people now, this is all about the donbas.

so that's why i don't know that this is going to be a long-term war because vladimir putin can't afford for this to be a long-term war because he's going to want some of those sanctions to be lifted. it becomes, of course, far more difficult because of war crimes, but i'm not so sure in the end that zelenskyy doesn't go to his people and say, we're going to take 80% of what we want and we have to start rebuilding our country. we will let the international community figure the war crimes out later after we protect our children, after we protect our families, after we protect our country. what do you think, admiral? >> i am going to start by saying i want to get sanctioned by putin. i have sanction envy for david petraeus and i want to get sanctioned. look, you are on the right note. war is hell but it is also

expensive, and it is bleeding out russia. now, putin's still got oil and gas. i am watching the sanctions ratcheting up to the degree those can be placed on oil and gas, you are going to fulfill that theory, joe. i think that's very powerful. i do think there is ultimately going to be a negotiated solution here. there might be a frozen conflict, is kind of the term that's used. the model that i have in my mind is to look at 1939 at the invasion of finland by the soviet union. stalin's tanks roll in there. the fins fight them to a standstill in what is called the winter war. google winter war, finland, 1939, and how did that end? finland gave up about 10 percent of their territory, but they sailed on as an independent sovereign state. they blunted the soviet advances. i think there's an outline of a

deal there, but it is going to be months in coming and we have to bleed vladimir putin more than we have so far. go after the money. >> yeah, i'm so glad you brought up finland because i think that is a perfect model, or at least the closest model to what we have for how this could end. richard was asking the question, and i'm so glad somebody is finally asking the question instead of what does putin want, asking the question what does the west want. as somebody who had a little bit to do with nato, admiral, let's -- again, we are talking about what has happened over the past six weeks. and then, richard, we will give you a quick shot at this. look what has happened. we will have finland in nato most likely, sweden in nato most likely. the balkan states which were always teetering are confident when joe biden says we will protect every inch of nato soil,

they believe it. you also have, of course, the swiss who were neutral in world war ii against the nazis who have chosen sides here. you have germany, who i think most significantly other than finland becoming a member of nato and sweden becoming a member of nato, you have germany upping their military budget. it will be a larger military budget than russia's by the time they're done if they stay true to their words. what does the west want? my god, putin has already given us more than we could have ever imagined six weeks ago. >> yeah, this is grand irony of this, is that everything putin doesn't want is happening right before his eyes. he must wake up every morning and feel like i'm in some kind of groundhog day nightmare here, finland and sweden joining. by the way, the combined defense budgets of finland and sweder

sweden are about one-fourth of russia. germany has leaped over to create a defense budget that will be bigger than russia's. all of that plus the unity of the west, pretty remarkable, and you add to it the failure of his military, at least thus far. you know, if you are a dictator job 101 is make sure your military intimidates everybody. boy, that is not what is happening right now. so it is an explosion of badness for vladimir putin, and i think what we want out of this is to preserve the sovereigty of ukraine, preserve zelenskyy. whether we end up negotiating something along the lines of what you and i were discussing, let's see what the next couple of cards are that we turn over here militarily. >> right. >> but i think we have accomplished an awful lot. we have challenges ahead for sure. >> richard haass, final

thoughts? >> i think there are just two scenarios we have to be prepared for. what is it we are not prepared to let the russians have? second of all, if the battle turns what are we prepared to do in the way of supporting ukraine? do we put any brakes on them if it comes to that? i just think again, i can imagine bad scenarios and i can imagine positive scenarios. the question is how we manage them because, joe, the last thing we want to see at this point are major fissures opening up between the west and ukraine, between the united states and ukraine or within nato, say germany is prepared to agree to certain things and others aren't. we have a lot of diplomatic management still ahead of us in addition to the military battle itself. >> we might find ourselves where we were in 1973 with the israelis and the soviets threatening nuclear war if we don't pull them back. so, you know, that's something that we do, mika, have to look at. what if the ukrainians are so successful that they start pushing towards the russian

border, and then that creates a nuclear crisis? >> richard haass and retired admiral james stavridis covering the many fronts of the war in ukraine for us on this friday morning. thank you both very much for okay.. still ahead on "morning joe," we will be joined by pentagon press secretary john kirby on the heels of president biden's new pledge to send more weapons to ukraine. we can pose a lot of those questions to him. plus, the big political story this morning. kevin mccarthy denies he told republicans in the days after the january 6th attack on the capitol. >> kevin, kevin. >> that he would urge donald trump to resign. he made that promise, it was the right thing to do. >> poor kevin is home alone now without donald. >> apparently mccarthy isn't aware of this new phenomenon known as audio recordings or i would say he is using a trump tactic which is pretending something very real doesn't

exist. >> it will never work. >> florida republicans -- >> light bulbs? no. >> escalate their fight with the magic kingdom. >> come on. how stupid. >> we will talk about the rights ahead on free speech. you are watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. [sound of helicopter blades] ugh... they found me. ♪ ♪ nice suits, you guys blend right in. the world needs you back. i'm retired greg, you know this. people have their money just sitting around doing nothing... that's bad, they shouldn't do that. they're getting crushed by inflation. well, i feel for them. they're taking financial advice from memes. [baby spits out milk] i'll get my onesies®. ♪ “baby one more time” by britney spears ♪ good to have you back, old friend. yeah, eyes on the road, benny. welcome to a new chapter in investing. [ding] e*trade now from morgan stanley.

(johnny cash) ♪ i've traveled every road in this here land! ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ crossed the desert's bare, man. ♪ ♪ i've breathed the mountain air, man. ♪ ♪ of travel i've had my share, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere. ♪ ♪ i've been to: pittsburgh, parkersburg, ♪ ♪ gravelbourg, colorado, ♪ ♪ ellensburg, cedar city, dodge city, what a pity. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere. ♪ finding my way forward with node-positive breast cancer felt overwhelming at times. but i never just found my way, i made it. so when i finished active therapy, i kept moving forward and did everything i could to protect myself from recurrence. verzenio is the first treatment in over 15 years to reduce the risk of recurrence for adults with hr-positive, her2-negative, node-positive, early breast cancer with a high chance of returning, as determined by your doctor when added to hormone therapy.

hormone therapy works outside the cell while verzenio works inside to help stop the growth of cancer cells. diarrhea is common, may be severe, or cause dehydration or infection. at the first sign, call your doctor, start an antidiarrheal, and drink fluids. before taking verzenio, tell your doctor about any fever, chills, or other signs of infection. verzenio may cause low white blood cell counts, which may cause serious infection that can lead to death. life-threatening lung inflammation can occur. tell your doctor about any new or worsening trouble breathing, cough, or chest pain. serious liver problems can happen. symptoms include fatigue, appetite loss, stomach pain, and bleeding or bruising. blood clots that can lead to death have occurred. tell your doctor if you have pain or swelling in your arms or legs, shortness of breath, chest pain, and rapid breathing or heart rate, or if you are nursing, pregnant, or plan to be. i'm making my way forward, my way with verzenio. ask your doctor about everyday verzenio. this is a game changer who dares to be fearless even when her bladder leaks. our softest, smoothest fabric keeping her comfortable, protected and undeniably sleek. depend. the only thing stronger than us, is you.

♪♪ beautiful shot of new york city on this friday morning. time to get up and turn on your computer. >> yeah. >> and work remote and then head into the city and go out to dinner. >> oh, boy. i tell you what --? that's a good day. >> working in 2022, isn't it, for a lot of people? >> yeah. >> what is going on. tj, what is going on with that

camera? >> tj. >> yeah. >> what are you doing? you say technical -- >> all right. >> what a beautiful -- i tell you what, new york, it is so beautiful. when you see these shots tj has been dialing up this morning, it is like it is the prettiest place in the world. sometimes you forget the smells in the middle of the summer in new york. >> oh, yeah. >> but look how beautiful the city is from a distance, willie. look at that. it is so gorgeous. >> you know, when it starts to get warm out, it is starting to get warm out and when it does in new york i can say in my neighborhood and everywhere else, the smells that start to come off the sidewalk that have been laying dormant the last six months, it is all released into a beautiful vapor and you know spring is here in new york. >> oh, yeah, it is a bouquet of smells. sometimes you are trying to sort things out. is that like a horse, is it a dog, is it a human? it is really pretty -- it is a fantastic -- >> it is like a mist over a lake, yeah. >> yeah, just a mist.

>> all right, guys. >> you just -- >> i have a little more valuable to talk about. >> horse, human. okay. go ahead. >> not much, but back in 2007 it was. >> yes. >> how long have we been on the air? >> well, this morning i think we will be on for 28 hours, unlike jerry lewis. >> i know. so it was 2007, i believe, this guy crashed our show. >> what? who? >> are you going to be here for all three hours, bill? >> if you allow me, joe. >> my god, look at you. joe, you have changed a little bit. >> i know,. >> bill karins, he hasn't changed a bit. >> what happened? 15 years of gray hair. >> you look fantastic. 15 years later, bill karins is heading to a new time slot here at msnbc. boy, does he deserve it. he will also be doing more in-depth climate reporting for nbc news and cnbc, which is much needed. >> he is going to miss us because, you know, the thing is the second we met bill. >> here we go.

>> yeah. >> we knew. what did i say? i said to both of you guys this guy is special, we have to treat him like family, he is very sensitive so let's handle him with kid gloves. >> here it is. >> we were very gentle. >> yeah. >> i think what separates our show from any other show is like bill karins, we are not afraid to say on the air, i love you. >> god, take was a horrible forecast. >> who does bill karins think he is. >> first, bill karins, who really should have retired. >> he never gets it right. >> bill karins, a man who can put a little bit of meat on his bones. >> what! it makes me want to cry. memories that could last a lunchtime. >> my hair is white. >> i know. >> we were mean to him. >> do you guys know for a while on google the number one search for my name was bill karins fired "morning joe." that was like the number one search. >> wow. >> that was -- >> let me tell you, bill, better than my number one search for

about a decade. >> never mind. okay. >> well, we can't share the best clips between bill and myself. >> no, they're so inappropriate. >> they're totally inappropriate. >> things have changed. >> a lot. but, bill, you really are special. you mean an awful lot to us. >> we love you. >> and we do love you, and we are also glad you are going to be able to get some sleep. >> yeah. >> you are going to a better place. >> yeah, i'm going -- in the tv world my alarm goes from 1:45 a.m. wake-ups to like banker hours, noon to 8:00 p.m. shifts. we go back to scarborough country, 18 years ago covering hurricane katrina and then mika came in, we know your value for women. couldn't be more proud, mika. willie, the conversation we have in the makeup room, i live in my hometown and raise my kids, in willie's hometown on his

recommendation. i will be back, but just not on a regular basis. >> we're happy for you. >> bill, we love you. i'm thinking about "way too early" when we started in 2009 and we couldn't get anyone to come on the show. bill was there every day. we would say, can you stick around for sports? can you stick around for the segment? you were a co-host and you became such a great friend. you are a great dad. you run marathons and, meanwhile, you are great at what you do, too. we are happy for you. let us know what it is like on the outside now that you have been released. >> we would like that. >> love you guys. >> by the way, it was so great. bill you think is good at weather and sports. right now he is going to the big board and will tell us what is happening in ukraine. his military analysis is over the top. if you don't want to do that, what's the weather look like? >> our final weekend outlook. >> you owe me one, too. this will be like the most beautiful weekend in the world

too. let's take this full screen to get my mug off the screen. 83 in tampa. 88 in tampa. unfortunately in the middle of the country we have a nasty spring storm. my apology to our friends in montana, nebraska, wyoming, you will have a blizzard. someone is going to get one to two feet of snow. the east coast is about as beautiful as it gets and it is about as ugly as it gets this weekend in the northern plains. then heading towards sunday, still gorgeous for the east coast. d.c., 84. a chance of showers or rain st. louis to oklahoma city. one of my best parts of the show, for a while we had the starbucks sponsorship. every single time i had to say the catch phrase at the end, you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. for a year after that, i would be every time the segment ended, you're watching "morning joe" brewed by -- and then fail. those were the days. >> those were the days. >> bill, thank you so much. enjoy your kids.

enjoy your sleep. thank you for everything you have done. >> we love you, bill. >> bill karins, happy friday. >> we love you, man, and we will see you again soon. all right. coming up, john heilemann is standing by for the big political story of the morning. kevin mccarthy flat-outlying and not understanding that tapes actually prove he is lying. we will lay it out for you. >> and how it is going to affect whether kevin is ever going to be speaker of the house or not. >> yeah. >> you know, on these tapes you actually have liz cheney and kevin agreeing that trump has to go. what changed? liz stayed true to what they were saying that day. she decided to do what was right instead of what was politically expedient. we will break that down. also, republicans, they're going after the magic kingdom in the political war against mickey mouse, and they're going to raise taxes on millions of

floridians when they do it. we will be talking to john heilemann about that when "morning joe" returns.

[sound of helicopter blades] ugh... they found me. ♪ ♪ nice suits, you guys blend right in. the world needs you back. i'm retired greg, you know this. people have their money just sitting around doing nothing... that's bad, they shouldn't do that. they're getting crushed by inflation. well, i feel for them. they're taking financial advice from memes. [baby spits out milk] i'll get my onesies®. ♪ “baby one more time” by britney spears ♪ good to have you back, old friend. yeah, eyes on the road, benny. welcome to a new chapter in investing. [ding] e*trade now from morgan stanley. refresh italiano subway now has italian-style capicola

on the new supreme meats and mozza meat. just like my nonna makes when she cooks! i don't cook. wait, what? it's a good thing he's so handsome. subway keeps refreshing and refre- ["only wanna be with you" by hootie & the blowfish] discover is accepted at 99% of places in the u.s. ["only wanna be with you" by hootie & the blowfish] after my car accident, discover is accepted at 99% of places in the u.s. wondnder whahatmy c cas. so i called the barnes firm.

i'm rich barnes. youour cidedentase e woh than insurance offered? call the barnes firm now to find out. yoyou ght t beurprpris

ci had no idea how muchw i wamy case was worth. c call the barnes firm to find out what your case could be worth. we will help get you the best result possible. ♪ call one eight hundred, eight million ♪ ♪♪ all right. 47 past the hour. a beautiful shot of capitol hill this morning. >> you know. >> washington, d.c.. >> it really wasn't so beautiful on january 6th. >> no, it wasn't. >> and for kevin it wasn't beautiful in the days following. >> that's the big political story of the morning. >> a lot of cart wheeling and somersaulting going around.

>> wow, taking lying to a new level. just can't stop lying. >> hard to say that in the age of trump, but anyway. >> msnbc has obtained new audio of house minority leader kevin mccarthy saying he would urge donald trump to resign after the january 6th capitol attack. the remarks were revealed by new york times reporters jonathan martin and alex burns for an upcoming book entitled "this will not pass: trump, biden and the battle for america's future." according to martin and burns, mccarthy told a group of raj republican leaders, i've had it with this guy. the democrats were driving hard at an impeachment resolution, mr. mccarthy said, and they would have the votes to pass it. now he planned to call mr. trump and tell him it was time for him to go. what he did was unacceptable. nobody can defend it.

he told the house republican leadership team, "the new york times" stated in the original reporting, that it had audio of the republican leader's remarks but mccarthy still denied it, calling the report, quote, totally false and wrong. nbc news also reached out for comment, asking if mccarthy said he would push trump to resign. a spokesman again denied mccarthy said it. then last night the reporters provided this audio to msnbc. >> liz, you on the phone? >> yeah, i'm here. thanks, kevin. um, i guess there's a question. when we were talking about the 25th amendment resolution, um. >> yeah. >> and you asked if, you know, what happens if it gets there after he is gone, is there any chance? are you hearing that he might resign? is there any reason to think that might happen? >> i've had a few discussions. my gut tells me no. i'm seriously thinking of having

that conversation with him tonight. i haven't talked to him in a couple of days. um, from what i know of him, i mean you guys all know him too. do you think he'd ever back away? but what i think i'm going to do is i'm going to call him. this is what i think. we know that it'll pass the house. i think there's a chance it'll pass the senate, even when he's gone. and i think there's a lot of different ramifications for that. now, i haven't had a discussion with the dems, that if he did resign would that not happen. now, this is one personal fear i have. i do not want to get into any conversation about pence pardoning. again, the only discussion i would have with him is that i think this will pass, and it would be my recommendation you should resign. i mean that would be my take,

but i don't think he would take it. but i don't know. >> nbc reached out to mccarthy's office for comment after the audio was released, but we've heard nothing. let's bring in the host and executive producer of "the circus" on show time, msnbc national analyst john heilemann and white house editor for "politico." it is remarkable listening to that and it is remarkable we have somebody in trump's republican party even when they're talking about getting rid of donald trump that lies through their teeth. kevin mccarthy, his people deny that he ever said this, calls reporters liars. he's provided a transcript, denies it. then the audio tape is provided proving yet again he is a liar, and it is the same thing that happened with the 2016 tape that came out that said that -- where

kevin mccarthy was telling other republican leaders that donald trump was on putin's payroll and said, swear to god, i think he's paid. he denied it. he was shown a transcript. he said the transcript was fake news. then when he played the tape he said he was just joking. this doesn't sound like a joke. this sounds like a man who will lie through his teeth and do anything to be speaker of the house. the question, john heilemann, is that now endangered because of this tape? >> good morning, guys. was it in danger, joe? i think it is definitely in danger. there's no question. i'm in south florida right now, probably not very far -- i can't mention how many miles from here where i'm sitting in miami to mar-a-lago, but whatever it is, that's where the future of kevin mccarthy lies now is in donald trump and what his reaction to this is going to be. we had no idea what the private conversations of trump and mccarthy have been in the last 12 hours, in the last 24 hours, in the week before that or even all the way back to january 7th

of 2021. so what does -- i mean trump is not going to punish mccarthy for lying in the way you are saying, joe. i mean there's no bigger history of liars in the world than donald trump. the standard will be does trump feel betrayed by mccarthy. that question i think is what the whole future of mccarthy's speakership. the number of votes will be a lot of the democrat party. depending on how big the republican majority is in the house, assuming they get one, it will be a narrow margin. if trump were to indicate he doesn't want mccarthy to be speaker of the house, there are enough trump loyalists it would be done. mccarthy has between now and the mid terms to make it up to trump, however offended trump

is. i think you will see him doing some extraordinary bowing, scraping and putting himself at the knee of trump over the weeks, more than he already has, to make sure trump doesn't give the party the high sign and basically kill his future. >> it is hard for me to see trump not doing that, willie, when you look at the fact that we have, of course, this audio tape now where he's scheming with liz cheney to get donald trump out of the white house and get him to resign. we've got him on the floor where he's blaming january 6th on donald trump. we have him talking to other members after january 6th, saying that he screamed and yesterday at donald trump when trump suggested that it wasn't his people there that were rioting. we have him saying that donald trump is on putin's payroll. that's on audio tape as well. yeah, willie, i think this may be the final straw. again, for a guy who just never

learned the lesson. you can't bow and scrape to donald trump enough. he will end up throwing you under the bus at the end no matter what. >> yeah. there's no question about it. donald trump, by the way, uncharacteristically quiet the last two days as all of this has been out in the public. we will see if he speaks out about kevin mccarthy this morning and the tapes. on the other hand, he knows that kevin mccarthy always will be his lap dog so if he runs for president again he wants kevin mccarthy perhaps to be speaker so maybe he doesn't go as hard as you might think. sam stein, what an extraordinary snapshot. that was on january 10th, that phone call we listened to, four days after the attack on the capitol. you had liz cheney and kevin mccarthy on the same page, this was a terrible thing, something had to be done about it, that kevin mccarthy was going to ask trump to resign. what happened from there? kevin mccarthy has now totally changed his tune. he did very quickly. he was at mar-a-lago a few weeks ago. and as a matter of fact, trying to run liz cheney out of the

party. he is now supporting a challenger to liz cheney in wyoming in her race. he has made liz cheney a pariah, yet, sam, he completely agreed with her in real-time. >> not only that, there's a few little gems sprinkled on that recording. if you notice the first line, it revealed they had a separate conversation earlier in which they were talking about using the 25th amendment to get trump out. so that's now revealed. i would love to hear a recording of that phone call too if one exists. secondly, he talks about making sure mike pence doesn't retroactively pardon trump, which means he was thinking ahead to the possibility of trying to make sure that whatever punishment they gave to trump was permanent. so, you know, it is one thing to say, yeah, kevin mccarthy wanted to call donald trump and push him out of office. it is deeper than that. he was scheming of ways to do it, not just by having a phone call with him. of course, that's all passed now. within a couple of weeks he was at mar-a-lago begging for forgiveness.

this is why i somewhat disagree. i think for trump it is not -- the past, it may matter, it may irritate him, but i think he knows that mccarthy is subjugated, that he is forgiven for this. >> i am so fascinated by the tape. can we play it again, tj? i know a lot of our viewers probably heard it the first time and want to hear it again just to digest it. we have a senior citizen who watches the show a good bit in palm beach area. he might want to hear it again too. can we play it? >> liz, you on the phone? >> yeah, i'm here. thanks, kevin. um, i guess there's a question when we were talking about the 25th amendment resolution. >> yeah. >> and you asked, you know, what happens if it gets there after he is gone, is there any chance, are you hearing, that he might

resign? is there any reason to think that might happen? >> i've had a few discussions. my gut tells me no. i'm seriously thinking of having that conversation with him tonight. i haven't talked to him in a couple of days. um, from what i know of him, i mean you guys all know him, too. do you think he would ever back away? but what i think i'm going to do is i'm going to call him. this is what i think. we know that it'll pass the house. i think there's a chance it'll pass the senate, even when he's gone. um, and i think there's a lot of different ramification goes for that. now, i haven't had a discussion with the dems, that if he did resign, would that not happen? now, this is one personal fear i have. i do not want to get in any

conversation about pence pardoning. again, the only discussion i would have with him is that i think this will pass, and it would be my recommendation you should resign. i mean that would be my take, but i don't think he would take it. but i don't know. >> my recommendation, he should resign. you know what, tj? i didn't get every -- >> he and liz seem to be on the same page. >> they are on the same page. i didn't get everything about the 25th amendment. i'm so sorry, but could you play it one more time. could you play this one more time? thank you. >> liz, you on the phone. >> yeah, i'm here. thanks, kevin. um, i guess there's a question. when we were talking about the 25th amendment resolution, um. >> yeah. >> and you asked, you know, what happens if it gets there after he's gone, is there any chance, are you hearing, that he might resign? is there any reason to think that might happen?

>> i've had a few discussions. my gut tells me no. i'm seriously thinking of having that conversation with him tonight. i haven't talked to him in a couple of days. um, from what i know of him, i mean you guys all know him, too. do you think he would ever back away? but what i think i'm going to do is i'm going to call him. my -- this, this is what i think. we know that it'll pass the house. i think there's a chance that it'll pass the senate even though he's gone. um, and i think there's a lot of different ramifications for that. now, i haven't had a discussion with the dems, that if he did resign would this not happen. now, this is one personal fear i have. i do not want to get into any conversation about pence pardoning. again, the only discussion i would have with him is that i

think this will pass, and it would be my recommendation you should resign. i mean that would be my take, but i don't think he would take it, but i don't know. >> we -- so we have now heard this, and i think the seniors in palm beach county and across america have probably gotten all of this down. as you listen to this, we have an upcoming guest who can talk about this a little bit more, but the parallels actually between the disinformation that is spewed out, the firehouse of falsehoods that are spewed out by vladimir putin that have become a part of russian state, really was a part of russian state craft through the 20th century, and then you add to that what le pen is saying in france, what right-wing

populists say where they create their own reality. we see this with kevin mccarthy. by the way, we're going to talk to david remnick at the top of the hour on russia. we are going to talk to david remnick on russia. we are going to talk to the epa administrator on earth day. we have a lot ahead. >> on sanctions. >> on sanctions. john heilemann, again, we are joking a little bit about kevin here because he sounds so stupid. >> this is a bombshell. >> but this is a bombshell, and it will impact american politics. i think it is more telling though the dies that are constantly told by this populist trump wing of the republican party. >> right. >> and that that has become the defining feature of a political party in 2022. absolutely frightening. take it from there. >> well, yeah, right. so i mean the leader of the party, not just the leader but the guy who is the personality, who has created the cultive

personality, the main feature of his personality was being a pathological liar. that has obviously infected the party as much as any of the positions. even the grievance, the racism, the populism, all of the stuff trump infected the party with, that personality trait of trump's, the core one, the one where he will say anything in any given situation and lie shamelessly, like without any hesitance contradict himself between just hours apart and claim that things that are on tape that he never said those things, that these were made up. i still to this day, joe, says that the ""access hollywood"" tape was fabricated, the billy bush tape. that's the guy we are denying with, the tape that caught him in the middle of the campaign talking about touching women's private areas he says it is a fraud, it is not a real thing.

he attacked piers morgan saying, you're not real, you heard him laughing about it on the show. but that's trump. at the top of the segment you made a comment about how nbc news has reached out to the speaker's office to get the comment now that the tape is out and i want to say this as clearly as i can. i'm glad nbc news is doing that, that's standard journalist protocol, but on the other hand why? why would anybody believe anything that comes out of the leader's house. as bad as the tape is, as much as it gets him in trouble with trump, the thing that is worse is what his office did yesterday. for normal people he is the minority leader of the house republican party, house republican caucus. he was presented with facts of the things he said. his office baldly, totally, categorically denied that they were true. said, no, never happened, no

way, no way, no way. now we have the tape. why should we ever believe anything that comes out of that office again, whether he is minority leader or speaker or -- >> we shouldn't. >> -- a state legislator from california? i think he has proven he is utterly untrustworthy. that's the larger question, because it is still the case he is most likely the next speaker of the house. how are we going to handle that going forward and believe anything out of his mouth or the people who speak for him? how do we believe them ever again? >> again, the sequence of events, the article was posted yesterday with the quotes in print. the speaker's office said, quote, they're totally false and wrong. the reporters, alex burns and jonathan martin, present tapes, audio tapes and still the office says it is totally false and wrong. sam stein, i mentioned that you listened to the tape and kevin mccarthy is on the same page with liz cheney. the evolution away from liz cheney began quickly. here is where he is now.

this is kevin mccarthy talking about liz cheney in february of this year. >> wyoming deserves to have a representative who will deliver the accountability against the biden administration, not a representative that they have today that works closer with nancy pelosi going after republicans instead of stopping these radical democrats for what they're doing to this country. >> kevin mccarthy on february 17th talking about liz cheney. again, he is backing her challenger there. so, sam stein, is there any cost to this anymore? does anything matter? do words matter anymore? is there any accountability to the people in bakersfield, california, who kevin mccarthy represents, are they going to vote for him again knowing that he baldly lies about it and, by the way, he showed his true feelings about donald trump and what happened on january 6th, and can he get away with saying it is the media up to its old tricks, it is totally false and totally wrong despite the existence of an audio tape where he says exactly what he claims not to have been said? >> i mean i don't want to be too

depressing about it, but i don't think there's an overwhelming cost to being caught in a bald-faced lie. you know, what we've learned in the past five years is trump, as jon pointed out correctly, repeatedly lied, pathologically lied and managed to find his way to the presidency. we live in a political system in which people are completely inoculated from getting punished for transgressions like these. he is in a safe district where voters primarily want to see him be combative in support of trump. i suppose if there's a price to pay it is people saying he wasn't close to trump in that moment of need on january 6th through january 12th. but they will also see that he went down the mar-a-lago and made up, and they don't like liz cheney and they're fine with him turning on her, too. so we have a political system that kind of buffers you against ever facing retribution or punishment for being exposed as lying as crassly as kevin mccarthy has been exposed right now. i honestly don't think he ends

up being hurt all that much by this. i do agree with john it is very difficult for us to say as journalists we trust something from his office again. he has been proven to be a liar. not just on this. in the article, too, he is reported as saying he wanted to oust fellow republicans from twitter. he wished twitter intervened and got them off the platform. now he is talking about twitter being a terrible censor of free speech. it is on multiple levels that he did. in terms of the political consequences, i'm not sure he faces much of a punishment. >> joe real quick, coming in cnn is reporting there have been accusations widespread yesterday liz cheney is the one that leaked the tape. her office saying representative cheney did not record or leak the tape and doesn't know how the reporters got it. just wanted to sprinkle that into the conversation. >> good to know. as we talk about lying here, it is important to understand how in races across america this year that this sort of lying has

become a defining part of so many republican campaigns across the country. you have, of course, kevin mccarthy lying here. you have donald trump lying about the election being rigged, being stolen, even though, again, all of the overwhelming evidence from all of the courts have shown that's not the case. you even have donald trump saying again to piers morgan when he confronts him, a guy that many have considered to be close to donald trump and an ally, donald trump's response, you're not real. you have at least an opponent and so many other opponents, we saw this actually play out on -- in michigan a couple of days ago. they're using qanon theories, accusing democrats who don't want to ban books of being

groomers, of being part of a pedophilia cult. this lying is surreal. again, you look at the war in russia and on a massive scale you have had what is called fire hose of falsehoods coming from russia for years before the war. you see that disinformation. you see the disinformation that we've seen out of hungary on a different level in the past out of other parties in central europe, out of populous movements in brexit. even though, you know, i personally, you know, brexit, fine with me, but why did it pass? so much disinformation, so many lies, and that's the defining feature of donald trump's presidency and now we see it

with kevin. we see it happening time and time again in republican races across the country where, mika, you actually -- you don't get support of a large chunk of the republican base unless you are willing to parrot donald trump's lies about the election being stolen, unless you are willing to parrot qanon lies about pedophilia. it is so dangerous. so, again, we have played this tape. we have made light of kevin's bungling here. but you peel back the bungling and there is a much graver threat -- >> yeah. >> -- to western democracy, and that is, again, that a large portion of a political party in the house of representatives is driven by creating an alternative reality, lying about

it and being unashamed of those lies. >> and amplified not just by politicians but by networks that either won't cover the story or cover it in a way that continues to feed trump. sam stein, thank you. john heilemann, stay with us. you are in florida and we want to ask you about the battle republicans are waging against disney. that will be in a few moments. we are also going to speak with "the new yorker's" david remnick on the latest with the ukraine war. that war is looming over most of what we are covering, including today's earth day. in seats president biden will deliver remark in seattle, making the case for his bold agenda to tackle the climate crisis. this as gas prices continue to soar, in part due to russia but also as biden tries to wean the u.s. off fossil fuels. it has his administration scrambling to show progress including the environmental protection agency. joining us now, epa

administrator michael regan. thank you so much for joining us. i guess we will star with gas prices. what is the effort to try to bring those down? >> thank you for having me, mika. i think the president made it clear this war on ukraine would not be a painless one. we know people are hurting. they're feeling the pinch at the pump in terms of prices, so the president has taken action. he has tapped the strategic petroleum reserve, injecting 1 million barrels of oil into the market per day to help bring the price pain down. he also announced last week the environmental protection agency would issue an emergency waiver to allow more e-15 fuels to be sold during the summer months. we know these aren't silver bullets, but the president is using every tool in his tool box to, again, relieve the price pressure while we continue to invest in a clean energy economy. i have to say that 80% of the

investment in new energy capacity over the past year was in wind, solar and battery storage. we have our auto manufacturers announcing that the future is electric vehicles. had we made these investments sooner, we would not be held hostage to these rising volatile international prices we are seeing as a nation. >> so in terms of wind, but especially electric, i feel like we've been talking -- we have been talking about this for decades. what will it take to actually wean the u.s. off fossil fuels or at least significantly enough that there isn't a dependence that still exists on russian fuel? >> we have to do two things. the first is we have to respond basically to what industry is asking this administration to do and the epa to do, which is provide clear rules of engagement so that they can make long-term investments in our automobile and our power sector. but the other thing we need in

addition to the president using every tool in his tool box in our agencies, we need for congress to pass legislation that gives the proper tax incentives to the clean energy companies, to all companies that are pursuing a more sustainable, clean future. we believe that if we have the rules of the road done in a way, epa's technology standards will create longer term investment opportunities, the proper tax incentives, mika, we can win the 21st century. this is really about protecting the planet, creating the public health, but also about creating millions of good-paying jobs across the country and being globally competitive. so the president is having to walk and chew gum at the same time. yes, we are having to rely more on fossil fuels today because of the war in large part, but we are continuing to put the regulations in place and fighting for the tax incentives so we can continue to support where the market is already going, which is a clean energy future.

>> all right. epa administrator michael regan, thank you so much for being with us on earth day. you know, it is so interesting, earth day began in the early 1970s and it seems that a lot of republicans look at the environment as an issue that is owned by the far left, owned by the squad. my gosh. younger americans, whether they're democratic, whether they're independent, whether they're conservative are so concerned about the environment. >> they're really scared. >> this is going to be an area, this is going to be an area, we saw it on the issue of marriage equality from 2004 to, you know, over the next decade, we saw that move a lot quicker than anybody thought. you are going to see the same thing with the environment because younger americans are really focused on this. i think there are actually even some republicans that understand that. so thanks so much to michael regan for being here.

let's bring in the editor of "the new yorker," david remnick. david an expert on russia. before we talk about the war, i want to talk about the kevin mccarthy clip and how you can draw a straight line from putin to le pen to mccarthy to trump. explain. >> well, i think we're -- as your previous guest made plain we are sleep walking through history. we are sleep walking and ignoring our greatest obligations to our children and grandchildren, and part of it is because we have fostered an environment, really a global environment of untruth, of lying. i mean remember donald trump's attitude toward the environment, that it is a joke, it is a conspiracy theory devised in beijing. you know, don't worry your heads about it, and he acted on it politically. in fact, one of the most assertive ways he acted politically was in deregulation. but if you listen to the tape of

kevin mccarthy, just lying in the most extraordinary way, denying he ever said it. that's the moral environment that he lives in. you listen to marine le pen in her debate the other night, quite frankly she is using russia as her banker and her moral inspiration and she is doing pretty well in that election. she will probably lose, but she's doing scarily well. then you see, you know, vladimir putin who has fostered an environment in which it is famously said nothing is true and everything is possible. you listen to him yesterday talking about mariupol where there are mass graves, where there are tens of thousands of citizens most likely dead as the result of this pointless so-called special military operation and de nazification. an environment has been created step by step, not only by

vladimir putin but by other leaders around the world, including our own, our ex-president, the man who wants to be the speaker of the house, and in major positions in areas of media that have gone along with this environment of nothing is true therefore everything is possible. it has poisoned the way we speak to each other, the way we understand facts and nonfacts. as a result, a real conversation, an effective conversation about real issues like the environment become impossible. >> yeah. you know, john heilemann, it struck me over the past several years going around washington, d.c., talking to democratic leaders on both sides of pennsylvania avenue how vexed they have been at handling the fire hose of falsehoods, whether

it is about the election, whether it is about covid, you name it, whether it is about qanon conspiracy theories, charges of pedophilia. top democratic leaders just sit there and they go, my god, what do we do? how do we respond to all of the lies that seem to come at us nonstop, lies that people know are lies? it has been really vexing. i would just recommend, again, that they look at a speech senator mcmorrow gave out of michigan earlier this week that you and i have talked about. i will tell you why, and i don't think i'm overstating this, that was a moment in time where a woman was accused of being a groomer, of being part of some qanon pedophilia ring. and i say if every democrat in

america takes that pose or anybody, any person who is being lied about in the political arena takes that pose, it will be every bit as important as when welsh said to mccarthy, have you know shame, sir? have you no shame? let me just say, all over america republican candidates are accusing their democratic candidates of being groomers. you have ron desantis's spokesperson accusing people who do not agree with desantis of being groomers, of being champions of pedophilia. that is how widespread this has become, john. >> well, joe, i mean you can't -- i mean you truly can't overstate it. you know, i have been in florida this week, right, in tallahassee for all of this desantis stuff,

and just on this one issue talking to democratic legislators, members of the house, members of the senate, republican legislators, members of the house, members of the senate, the way in which these particular charges, the notion -- i mean you had disney land -- disney world is not just being attacked. it is being portrayed as pedo world. that's what the protests were over the weekend. that's the language of pedophilia and grooming as you suggested, it is not an isolated case, but i'm truly stunned in tallahassee and all over the state of florida there's not a congressional race, there's not a state legislative race in which the democrat in that race is not by someone, an outside group, voter or opponents for the strategist for the opponent being accused if they oppose any element of the desantis culture war agenda, being accused either implicitly or explicitly of

being on the side of pedophiles or being on the side of groomers. what the michigan legislator did is broader. as much as it is in the water, that video is out there. the virality of the video is incredible. legislators in tallahassee, every one we talked about and asked, have you seen the video? oh, yeah, we've seen the video, it was incredible. i don't know the long-lasting effects of the speech will be but two's noticed down in your home state and a lot of democrats took notice and said, that's the way we have to go. will they be able to adopt it, stick to it, deliver it as well as she did, i don't know about that. they're like, what, michigan, i never heard about that thing. that was the shot heard around the world in democratic politics because they're all confronting this particular lie which is running in tandem with the big lie about the election being stolen. that's the two things you hear

on the campaign trail early in the race. if you are a republican you have to say that the 2020 election was stolen and democrats are on the side of pedophiles. >> her name is senator mallory mcmorrow. we had her on the show a couple of days ago. i asked her, the woman that accused you of being a groomer, when what did she do? she said he was looking at the back of her head. you are talking about governor desantis taking on disney in florida, which is staggering on its own. i read from conservatives yesterday who said, okay, governor desantis, you won the fight over this bill. now you don't need to go in and sort of salt the earth and take away disney has, the special privileges of self-governing and everything else, you don't have to tear down disney world which is the largest private employer in the state of florida.

what does the fight look like in the state of florida? does governor desantis largely have the backing of republicans on this? >> governor desantis has -- i mean, look, willie, you can't -- again, i will use that you can't overstate, but desantis is in a position that everyone in florida politics in the republican party says he's the strongest governor. when i say strongest, i don't mean best. i mean exerting his political will over his party with greater strength and force than any republican governor in the history of the state, probably than any other democratic governor in the history of the state. jeb bush was a strong governor in terms of having party loyalty. desantis is a different beast. he is way more powerful. it is not a question whether he has the backing of the party. it is that he is telling the state party what to do and they are doing it. in this case the two things that happened in the special state legislative session, one was the redistricting situation. that was a situation where the house and the senate had proposed a new district map to try to get approval from the

governor. so it was already a map that was favorable to republicans and was chose to curry favor with desantis. desantis looked at the map and said, no, i don't want that map. here is my map and put a map in front of them that was even more favorable towards him and towards republicans and diluted black voting power even more. they said, okay, whatever you say, governor desantis. adding this case with disney, a lot of people thought they were winning on the issue as a culture war issue, that beating up disney over what the opponents of the bill call the don't say gay bill, that it was a winning culture war issue for the republican base, but symbolic only. don't take the next step. don't actually go after disney on an economic basis, don't hit their bottom line. desantis was thought to be leaning in that direction, and then out of nowhere, shocking every one, democrats, republicans, reporters, he decided on tuesday, no we're going to punish disney. it wasn't that they fought the

passage of the bill, they said critical things about it after it became law. what happened? 48 hours later disney has lost a tax, special tax status they had since they came to orlando in 1967. that just went away like that because ron desantis wanted it. he has the whip hand and the politics here. whether it is going to work for him long term, i know, joe, you think it is not, but at this moment he is on an incredible roll, winning left, right and center and his approval rating keeps going up. >> i have to say it is so stupid, because disney created new florida, modern florida. >> i know. >> this is an awful lot like the texas governor deciding to own the libs in a way that cost taxpayers in texas and the economy $4 billion. the taxes that are going to be like piled on millions of floridians because of this, absolutely insane.

going after disney, the magic kingdom still i'm thinking probably, probably among floridians, probably among americans a much higher approval rating than the tallahassee republicans have. david ignatius though, i want to -- david remnick, i want to -- here, i'm sorry. i just couldn't help myself. >> this was funny. >> but the florida gop agenda banned math books. they are banning math books and lying about critical race theory being in math books, and they're lying about it. they declare a war on walt disney and raise state taxes on floridians by attacking the magic kingdom. they want to raise federal taxes on millions and millions of working class voters and middle class voters because rick scott is angry. he thinks taxes fall disproportionately on his richest donors.

these guys are crazy. these guys are out of their mind. these guys have lost the plot. this extremism will fall back on them. david, i want to -- you can talk about that. you can talk about my tweet because i know that's why you came on this show. >> i did, i did. that's why i'm here. >> yeah, something that struck me as i hear all of this talk about pedophilia, and it struck me as being a former republican and listen to what donald trump did, like the others. it was about the others, right? so first hispanics were breeders. you remember that during the campaign? he said hispanics were breeders. then in december of '15 he talked about the muslim registry. he became president and we had charlottesville and he preached moral equivalency. then we had -- remember, just

the ugly scene of trump telling black members of congress and muslim members of congress, go back home, go back from where you came from, right. so now what are they doing? they're desperate to make white, christian, suburban moms the other. so how do they do it? because they can't call a michigan senator who is a white, christian, suburban mom the other by her lifestyle, by her upbringing as they do with hispanics, as they do with muslims, as they do with black americans. so what do they do? they accuse her of pedophilia. they're not only doing it to her, they're doing it to other members of congress across michigan, across florida, across america. that's their new other.

agree with donald trump, be on our side in the culture war or you support pedophilia. it is sickening. >> well, i think what you have just said and what john has just reported from florida makes enormous sense and is absolutely true. we have to look at it in an even more wholistic way. every time this kind of culture war from the republicans is used it work goes. why is glenn youngkin in the position he is in now? because of his incredibly subtle analysis of the economics of virginia? no. it is because he exploited a hot button culture war, complete nonsense issue, critical race theory in the schools, which doesn't exist, and it put him over the top. he won. rick desantis is waiting in the wings to succeed donald trump. i don't know that he will run against donald trump for the nomination, but if trump steps

aside there is rick desantis and there are any number of other hot button culture warriors in various positions. the question is, is the pushback against this going to be limited to conversations on msnbc or "the new yorker" or the like? that's limited. we have a president whose pap pap -- popularity rating is low, who is struggling from all kind of issues from ukraine to gas prices at the gas pump and all of the rest. we need figures of national authority to exert their moral authority to fight back against this in a very direct way. this business of ignoring donald trump, of ignoring rick desantis and hoping that it will go away, i just doubt the efficacy of that in the most severe way. the democrats are most likely going to get really badly beaten in the mid terms, and not just in a cyclical way, especially in

the house. they're hoping to hold on to the senate. who the hell knows if that's remotely possible. the president of the united states has a very low rating, and it is not just because of the price of gas. it is because these cultural issues are exploited and these -- with the helium of lies that comes out of palm beach and elsewhere every single day, and it works and it needs to be combatted. yes, obama gave a nice speech the other day about this, but he's not in office. he doesn't have the platform that he used to. joe biden is who -- does not have the capacity in rhetorical terms like obama, but he has the platform, and he has to get it together to be among the leaders who fights back against this in a morally clear way. otherwise, disaster ensues and the really, really big issues that need confronting, whether

it is the environment or foreign policy or the economy are not going to get the proper attention to say the least. we will pay for it and pay for it and pay for it. >> all right. david remnick, stand by because we're going to still speak with you about the war in ukraine more specifically. john heilemann, thank you so much. we will be watching "the circus" this sunday on showtime. coming up on "morning joe," department of defense spokesman john kirby joins us live from the pentagon. we will ask him about the new u.s. military aid for ukraine as well as the new horrors uncovered outside the besieged city of mariupol. plus, gruesome details surrounding two russian oligarchs found dead along side their families. why investigators believe they took their own lives. also ahead, former ambassador to russia michael mcfaul and former ambassador to

ukraine john herbst joins the conversation. as we go to break we want to mention richard engel, reports on the ground in ukraine tonight, shining a light on the resilient spirit of the ukrainian people as they fight back in the face of war, brutality. watch "on assignment, ukraine or death." you are watching "morning joe." we will be right back. (johnny cash) ♪ i've traveled every road in this here land! ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ crossed the desert's bare, man. ♪ ♪ i've breathed the mountain air, man. ♪ ♪ of travel i've had my share, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere. ♪ ♪ i've been to: pittsburgh, parkersburg, ♪

♪ gravelbourg, colorado, ♪ ♪ ellensburg, cedar city, dodge city, what a pity. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere. ♪ what does the future of strength look like? it's dynamic weight that adjusts for you in real time for a more efficient workout. and you can only experience it... (sigh) on tonal. ♪♪ hey businesses! you all deserve something epic! so we're giving every business, our best deals on every iphone - including the iphone 13 pro with 5g. that's the one with the amazing camera? yep! every business deserves it... like one's that re-opened! hi, we have an appointment. and every new business that just opened! like aromatherapy rugs! i'll take one in blue please! it's not complicated. at&t is giving new and existing business customers our best deals on every iphone. ♪ ♪ stuff. we love stuff. and there's some really great stuff out there.

but i doubt that any of us will look back on our lives and think, "i wish i'd bought an even thinner tv, found a lighter light beer, or had an even smarter smartphone." do you think any of us will look back on our lives and regret the things we didn't buy? or the places we didn't go? ♪ i'd go the whole wide world ♪ ♪ i'd go the whole wide world ♪ your heart is at the heart of everything you do. and if you have heart failure, entrust your heart to entresto. ♪ ♪ it's the number one heart failure brand prescribed by cardiologists. entresto was proven superior at helping people stay alive and out of the hospital. heart failure can change the structure of your heart, so it may not work as well. entresto helps improve your heart's ability to pump blood to the body. and with a healthier heart, there's no telling where life may take you. ♪ ♪

don't take entresto if pregnant; it can cause harm or death to an unborn baby. don't take entresto with an ace inhibitor or aliskiren, or if you've had angioedema with an ace or arb. the most serious side effects are angioedema, low blood pressure, kidney problems, or high blood potassium. ask your doctor about entresto for heart failure. entrust your heart to entresto. before nexium 24hr, anna could only imagine a comfortable night's sleep without frequent heartburn waking her up. now, that dream... . ...is her reality. nexium 24hr stops acid before it starts, for all-day, all-night protection. can you imagine 24 hours without heartburn?

family and supporters will gather in grand rapids, michigan, today for the funeral of patrick lyoya. the unarmed black man who was

killed by a police officer earlier this month, he was shot in the back of the head while laying face down on the ground. police won't release the name of the officer but have released several videos of the incident. you can see lyoya be pulled over and talking with the officer before taking off running. the officer and lyoya struggled before the officer shot him while on top of him. let's bring in right now the host of msnbc's "politics nation" and the president of national action network, reverend al sharpton. rev, tragically this has happened and once again you will be going at the family's request to deliver a eulogy for a young man who should still be alive. >> absolutely. i'm leaving as soon as i finish talking with you to again join a family who was given the task no family wants, and that is to bury their child where it should be the opposite.

their child lives to bury their parents. this is so egregious because according to the independent autopsy done by the pathologist that the family and attorney ben crump brought in, this young man was shot in the back of his head while a policeman was on top of him, and there was some kind of struggle. but how you justify shooting someone in the back of the head, clearly you were not in a position where your life was threatened. clearly you were not in a position where this young man could have done something that would be considered life extenuating circumstances because he was unarmed and you knew that because you were on top of him, and they will not release his name, the name of the officer, saying, well, he has not been charged. so now do we have a rule in america that you cannot release the name of an officer unless they've been charged? so if they're never charged we will never know who did it?

we will never know if this policeman had a record of complaints, a record of these kinds of situations close to them before? this is as bad as it gets. and what is so burdensome to this family is that this was a fine young man with two children. >> yeah, and it unfortunately reminds us of the story from charleston where a man was shot in the back as he was slowly ambling away from the police officer. here you have a traffic stop, i guess a sticker on a license plate was expired or something. >> right. >> but the officer knew he posed no risk. he ran away. the officer had his vehicle. there was somebody inside of his vehicle, and the officer went running after him. i just -- i want to note for those watching who may not watch

our show every day, rev, you are a big believer in giving a fair hearing to police officers in dangerous situations, when they go in to apartment buildings on domestic cases where their lives may be in danger and they don't know what is behind doors. we've had that discussion repeatedly here. that's just not the case here in grand rapids with this young man who posed no threat, no risk to this officer, but who chased after him, pinned him down and shot him in the back of the head. >> you know, you are absolutely right. i can't tell you the amount of conversations i've had with police officers, black and latino and white, that have said you have to understand our fear. and with that real fear going down hallways, going into situations where they go into people's houses, not knowing

what they're facing. they want to go home to their family just like anyone else, and i understand that. but when you have situations where you are not under threat, where there's no fear, where you have an officer that will, with having someone down even take his gun out and then shoot him in the back of the head or when you have an officer put his knee on someone's neck nine minutes and 29 seconds, that is not the area where you could say the officer was operating out of fear. we must protect and we must stand by law enforcement when they're right, but those that go way beyond that, that go beyond their training and express their rage by thinking they can take people's lives, they must be held accountable because they're not defending the law, they have broke the law, and the judgment of those of us that are trying to fight for balance in this society from those that are criminals as well as those that are supposed to not turn criminal themselves. >> and what a tragedy for

patrick's children, patrick's family, for people in the community. reverend sharpton, thank you for being with us. if you can, please, please let patrick's family know that so many of us here today, the family of "morning joe" that are watching will be keeping them in our prayers. we will be watching "politics nation" this weekend on msnbc. coming up next, a horrific discovery outside the decimated city of mariupol. a mass grave with thousands of bodies. the mayor there calling it the biggest war crime of the century. we have "the new yorker's" david remnick still with us. we will talk with him about that. plus, we'll also discuss the fighting going on in the donbas and whether it can get any worse for vladimir putin and his russian troops. we will be right back.

[zoom call] ...pivot... work bye. vacation hi! book with priceline. 'cause when you save more, you can “no way!” more.

no wayyyy. no waaayyy! no way! [phone ringing] hm. no way! no way! priceline. every trip is a big deal. medusa lived with a hideous curse. uhh, i mean the whole turning people to stone thing was a bit of a buzz kill, right? so she ordered sunglasses with prime, one day delivery. ♪♪ clever girl. people realized she's actually hilarious once you get to know her. eugh. as if. ♪♪ well, he was asking for it. prime changes everything. this is the sound of nature breathing.

and this is the sound of better breathing. fasenra is a different kind of asthma medication. it's not a steroid or inhaler. fasenra is an add-on treatment for asthma driven by eosinophils. it's one maintenance dose every 8 weeks. it helps prevent asthma attacks, improve breathing, and lower use of oral steroids. nearly 7 out of 10 adults with asthma may have elevated eosinophils. fasenra is designed to target and remove them. fasenra is not a rescue medication or for other eosinophilic conditions. fasenra may cause allergic reactions. get help right away if you have swelling of your face, mouth, and tongue, or trouble breathing. don't stop your asthma treatments unless your doctor tells you to. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection or your asthma worsens. headache and sore throat may occur. this is the sound of fasenra. ask your doctor about fasenra.

♪♪ we're back with david remnick. i want to bring in elyse jordan, of course, former state department person, employee. st employee, a staff. i don't know, elise, what itself the proper way? smr speech writer. anything you say -- >> states prefer -- you know, i was going to say state department bureau. but that's all conservative. now staff, adviser, whatever, it works. all right. we also have david remick here. during the first war george h.w. bush mispronounced saddam hussein's fame intentionally, because he got it under his

skin. you totally cauldron desantis rick. >> a morphing of rick scott. >> i am deeply apologetic. >> deeply apologetic. okay. so, i love your latest take as one of the foremost experts on russia. i love your latest take on what's going on in the ukrainian war, of course, on one side, we have a complete failure of russian troops, of course, the war crimes and now this mass grave we are hearing about, give us your insights. where are we right now in this war? >> well, it's a hor fayeing prospect, because on the one hand, very clearly, the blunted russian military not so blunting. we have gotten intelligence reports and articles about the fantastic modernization of the

russian military in recent years. this has been one of putin's signature issues, he was going to rebuild the russian military and strategically it was supposed to be so incredibly fist indicated with asymmetrical warfare and shutting down the cyber capacity components general farosimov was celebrated in the russian press day of day after day. what we discover in the event to invade, decapitate ukraine is that it's a mess. it's hollowed out and disorganized and corrupted as so many other aspects of russian life and russian society. many analysts are now coming to the conclusion that the reason you have trucks running out of fuel stalling on the road, poor communications, in general, being killed, precisely, they're

communicating on open lives, all of this is because russian military is so poor as the result of corruption wint and within the state. so, but on the other hand, it's gigantic and there is a lot of fire power there and the combination of fire power and absolute heedless cruelty has result reasonable doubt in the deaths of tens of thousands of people. the reports in mariupol are such that you have tens of thousands of civilians killed, people starved out. people thrown into mass graves and this is in line with what we have seen in the past with the russian military under putin. we saw nit chechnya. we saw nit syria. now we are seeing it in ukraine, all of ukraine and in eastern ukraine, the battle. the assault, let's tall it, has only just begun. it promises to be absolutely

ruthless and bloody. >> over the last 24 hours, russia has been making a lot of noise about a part of moldova it believes to be liberated. that is on the western border of ukraine, just something to keep in mind. but to david's point, we just this morning are seeing these images, satellite images of mass graves in mariupol confirming tragically and horrifically what one can expect, with understand the ukrainian military get in there. the satellites and journalists can have a peek at mariupol, makeing what happened in bucha summarily by comparison, perhaps this is the beginning of ba we are seeing in that terribly ravaged city. >> willie, it's awful. you see the villages and the wreckage that putin has brought on the ukrainian people and the

images of so many ukrainians, millions who have had to plea for their lives and every day that this war continues, the human carnage continues and so many lives are uprooted and lost. and that's why i really want to know what's going on with the negotiations at this stage in the game. as we are talking about how much aid we are sending of. how many arms we are sevengd remember richard haas established what the end game would be and finding something that's palatable for both the russians and ukrainians, the possibility of that task. i really hope we aren't looking at a year's long, ongoing war that destructs ukraine even more and that really at this stage is

the tragic outlook. >> yeah. david remnick. i'm glad elise brought that up. we had a conversation with spreads, which are hots on what the west wanted at the end. obviously, we have been masking what does putin want? the question is, not what does the west want but what can the west swal low, war crimes have been committed. obviously, mass graves, it's hard to imagine vladimir putin still in power and being welcomed back into the world community after all this is over, at the same time, it's hard to imagine ukrainians suffering for how does the west gram with the question of how we bring this to a peaceful resolution an how do we live for that peace? >> well, first and foremost, let's make clear the horrendous

outrage we all should feel but ukrainians are feeling middle east intensely, they have been raided without reason, without justification, branded nazis. tens the and thousands of citizens being killed indiscriminately. all kind of weapons have been thrown at them with the threat of chemical and nuclear weapons as well. so that's the moral position. that's the sense of outrage we all vould begin with and ukrainians do as well. now, richard haas is not wrong that there has to be some kind of end to this, but when the you ask where negotiations are now. they're nowhere. how can ukrainians possible accept the word of russia in anyway at this point, where not only are they being invaded but when there is agreements made about humanitarian corridors to get people out of harm's way,

they're violated over and over and over again. it becomes target practice. so how has ukraine supposed to negotiate? it is this invasion did not begin a couple of months ago, it began if 2014 with the capture and annexation of crimea and the virtual annexation of parts of eastern ukraine and you know it may well be that putin's end game here is to try to assert himself even more so in eastern ukraine and possibly have a corridor to the black sea and then call it a day and declare victory and go home. but how is ukraine supposed to accept that presence? it's clearly accepted the notion of not being in nato. zelenskyy signaled that quite clearly already.

but how much is he supposed to swallow in how much death and suffering and humiliation and violation is ukraine supposed to accept? negotiations are nowhere. >> it's another way of asking what is the end game here. david remnick. retired general kirby joins us next from the pittsburgh. we'll have the top headlines. we are back in 90 seconds. . we are back in 90 seconds.

at xfinity, we live and work in the same neighborhood as you. we're always working to keep you connected to what you love. and now, we're working to bring you the next generation of wifi. it's ultra-fast. faster than a gig. supersonic wifi. only from xfinity. it can power hundreds of devices with three times the bandwidth. so your growing wifi needs will be met. supersonic wifi only from us... xfinity. xfinity mobile runs on america's most reliable 5g network, but for up to half the price of verizon, so you have more money for more stuff. this phone? fewer groceries. this phone? more groceries! this phone? fewer concert tickets. this phone? more concert tickets. and not just for my shows. switch to xfinity mobile for half the price of verizon. that's a savings of over $500 a year. switch today.

. it is the top of the hour as we launch into the third hour of morning joe. welcome back to "morning joe." it's friday, april 22nd. we have an awful lot to talk about over the next hour. we will be talking to john kirby, admiral, pentagon spokesman in just a minute. and so much more throughout the hour. >> we have so much more of ukrainians in mariupol as the war reaches a new phase. nbc news correspondent erin mclaughlin has the latest. we warn you, some of the images may be disturbing. >> reporter: despite vladimir putin's claims of victory in the

besieged city of mariupol, the standoff continues. >> every day the situation in mariupol is very dangerous. we can possibly be shot and killed. >> reporter: one of the people trapped inside the plant. he sent us this video saying even though putin claims the russians sealed off the plant to starve everyone my, the ukrainians are still fighting. ic thating out this russian tank. still, he says, hundreds of civilians remain trapped calling the situation desperate. >> the most heart breaking thing is we run out of supplies. we are trying to share everything with civilians. >> across the city, death seems to be everywhere. ukrainian officials say these satellite images show freshly dug graves outside a cemetery, among the horrors in the rest of the city. chilling images are familiar. now investigating war crimes in the raf and city.

this week, they uncovered another mass grave. this time outside the city hospital, including the body of a 15-year-old. he alleges was shot in the chest by the russians. this is genocide, he says, they are trying to disturb our people. on thursday, president zelenskyy expressing gratitude for the latest round of u.s. military aid, president biden announced another $800 million in support. ukrainian military official tells us war is not good. >> despite a lot of demands, but again, it's not an off to transfer the face of the war. >> reporter: and in this war, he says, there is no such thing as victory. only heart break.

>> we are getting reports of publicly that's unbearable. >> nbc's erin mclaughlin joining us from ukraine, retired admiral kirby. you can hear it in the voices of the ukrainian military leaders and president zelenskyy they are very happy with the latest package of $800 million in weapons from the united states into ukraine and rising. what is your valuation of the pentagon's point of view of what russia is calling a new phase of the war, this new invasion of the east. what does it look like from your point of view? >> what we are seeing in early days is number one shaping operations. they are continuing to move in, enableing capabilities that allow them to do larger operations, helicopter, rotary

aviation support. command and control elements, communication elements. they're also at the same time conducting limits offensive operations inside the donbas, particularly in the northern part of the donbas. if you look out there, you will see a town called isiam, they have been moving on and they are pushing more closer to where the ukrainian forces are inside the northern donbas area. now the ukrainians are pushing back. we see them resist the efforts and going on the offense against these russian attempts. so far in these early days here of this new phase of the war, we haven't seen much territory in the donbas change hands, they're pretty much fighting over that same sort of lean of contact, if you will. in the south, as we have been talking about. they're still trying to take mar pot we don't believe they have. we believe if they do, their intent is to dedicate the forces and the fire power they have

been applying in mariupol, at least most of it up into the donbas, so they will try to encircle tell ukrainian troops in the donbas from the north and the south. >> that's interesting. president putin has declared victory in mariupol. you see footage of troops celebrating in the streets under the russian flag. that's not your assessment right now. how is ukraine holding up, if it is holding that city? >> well, we still have seen resistance inside mariupol. obviously, that resistance has been dwindling over time as the russians have continued their onslaukt. we see pockets of resistance in mar poll and the russians applying more air power. most of it is focused on mariupol and the north to the donbas. they have definitely still been pounding mariupol. >> what can you tell us, admiral, about the failings of russia's military and the

challenges that they're even having now as they try to move into the donbas? >> yeah. you know, it's a great question. joe, you saw they've announced a new general who will be running the whole show now. it's clear they are learning the mistakes from the early days and weeks, command and control, unit cohesion. operational maneuver, making sure they are maneuvering forces in an efficient way. the integration air and ground deeply lacking in the first few days, where air commanders weren't talking to ground commanders. you can begin to see the siege of those efforts to improve their performance in these early days in the donbas. as i was telling willie, before they started moving in forces, they moved in helicopter support and lodgistics and sustainment. they didn't want to run out of supplies. clearly they are trying to learn

from it. but there is a lot of challenges they have to overcome. this is not a military known for being very adaptive. it's not a military urging leaders to encourage initiative and change the way they are doing things in the moment. so this is still going to be, we believe, a challenge for them. >> so let's talk about nukes and nuclear blackmail. early on, we heard vladimir putin talking about the possibility of world war iii. tactical nuclear weapons deployed in ukraine a. bit more silence here. we also are of course hearing from russian diplomats and russian tv that talk quieted a bit. you had lavrov last week, the foreign minster saying, no, we won't deploy nuclear weapons. now you have the disturbing spectacle of russian state tv having open discussions about the nukeing of new york city and

russia's ability to destroy everything in new york city in an instatute general mccaffrey talked about just how reckless and irresponsible this was on vladimir putin's part, to have his state-run television section talking about nukeing american cities. what -- how should we put all of that in context? >> we absolutely agree with general mccaffrey. this is irresponsible rhetoric coming from a nuclear power, especially one that has the nuclear arsenal mr. putin does and has available to him. this is a -- look, the war has already gone on longer than it should. it should have never started. to have a nuclear power exhibit that kind of belicosity, talk about that, completely reprehensible. what i will tell you, we are machine toreing this every

single day. secretary austin gets updated every single da i from russian capabilitied and their posture. i will tell you, joe, we take this seriously, our strategic posture for our homeland as well as our deterrent posture with respect to allies and partners. we see nothing to indicate that we ned to change that posture that we need to make any kind of nuclear capability changes to be able to defend the homeland and allies and partner. who ill the rhetoric is certainly trouble and irresponsible, we haven't seen anything that gives us cause to have to change our foot print. >> so as disturbed as i was from the former president seemed to move away at times from the importance of defending fellow native countries under attack, i have been cheered by this president, the current commander in chief, president biden saying that the united states will defend every inch of nato

territory. that i know means an awful lot especially to those in the balkan states. i am curious where moldova fits in the white house thinking, obviously vladimir putin and other russians talking about the possibility of moving on moldova. if they did that, what would the united states and nato response be? >> reporter: it's very worrisome to hear that rhetoric. they haven't kept any of the strategic objectives in ukraine, quite frankly. that doesn't mean we don't take it seriously. that is concerning to us. i wouldn't get ahead of operational decision or policy decision by the commander-in-chief, by president biden. i would just tell you that we are, in fact, committed to every inch of nato territory and making sure that's defensible. in fact, over the last several weeks, we've gone from 80,000 american troops in europe to

100,000. we are actively talking about what that posture ought to look like going further, the security environment in europe has changed. not is changing, it has changed. and we don't know exactly what that's going to look like going forward, but we know we've got to posture ourselves differently for a new environment on the european can't. with are actively talking with our partners what that looks like. >> two questions, very different the first is, i understand you have been sanctioned by russia along with david ignacious and our friend beanna and i believe it was ned price saying that is actually a sign of weakness to an extent that the strategy keeps change and the sort of lashing out. how do you see that beyond it being a badge of honor at this point? >> yeah. it's a pretty good group to belong to. you sanctioned journalists, david and others.

i don't, nobody called to tell me i was being sanctioned or why. it clears information bothers mr. putin. he doesn't want to have to deal with the truth and people telling the truth. journalists on the ground, writers like david, me, ned from the podium being honest and opened of what we are seeing the russian force do inside ukraine. clearly, he wants to shut down the free flow of information and that is a sign of weakness, that's what tyrants do, dictators do siphon off the truth from people and lie to them. >> so the second question is about mariupol and the people who are still in that steel plant along with troops, ukrainian troops and if there -- i know you probably get asked this a thousand times a day, but there is no way to help these people. will they die there? is there a way to create

humanitarian ukrainian zone, humanitarian no-fly zones to keep it in ukraine but somehow help those people? >> look, we're just as bothered and concerned and devastated by the images that we are seeing coming out of mar poll and other places in ukraine. nobody here at the pentagon has taken this lightly. we know that there are real leaves at stake and lost. that's why we are working so hard to give ukraine the tools they need to defend themselves in mariupol and elsewhere in the country. the kind of things we are sending them. over yesterday, are things that we believe and they believe because they've told us will actually help them beat back the russian aggression in places like mariupol and the donbas. that's our that cuss right now, making sure they can defend themselves as ably and quickly as possible. >> we spoke on this show two months ago at the dawn of the russian invasion. i asked you whether or not there

is a chance american troops would be on the ground in ukraine. you were very clear, the president made this clear, there will not be american troops on the ground. have any of the horrors we've witnessed in mariupol or bucha changed your cull calculus? is there a chance american troops will be oak in ukraine? >> the president has been asked about this, he says, there will be no u.s. fighting in this war. back to the conversation i was having with joe about nuclear capabilities, i think we can all understand that escalating the war and making it about the united states versus -- two nuclear powers, it's certainly an escalation between the united states and russia would not be good for ukraine and the ukrainian cities an towns or the european can't or for our own national security. so it's a tough place to be.

but the president is right. i mean, we have to be mindful of the possibility that a much broader, deeper, even global war could result from that kind of outcome. >> elise jo were. >> admiral kirby, your point about president biden's insistence, no troops on the ground taken. we have given a total of $3.4 billion in arms to the ukrainians. you just announced $800 million in new arms shipment. do we have american advisers, military adviser who's are helping the ukrainians use these weapons and targeting? and are any of them in ukraine? >> we don't have any advisers or trainers in ukraine. as you know, just before the invasion, when we knew it was coming. we had a small amount of troops there, florida national guard, a part of a long training mission we've had over the last eight years rotationally. they've left the country. nobody is in ukraine now.

that said, we have provided training in the united states on that switch played unmanned aerial system as well as other coastal defense capabilities in the states. there is training going on right now with ukrainian soldiers, more than 50 of them outside the country on the howitzers. we said we will send another 72 howitzers and 144,000 artillery rounds to go with those as well as the vehicles. then that's not a howitzer the ukrainian field are familiar with. so we are doing training outside ukraine right now to make sure that they know how to use them and it doesn't always have to be american troops that are doing that. and we're going to put those ukrainian troops back in, so they can train their colleagues and teammates. if other systems go in ukraine that require familiarization, we are absolutely committed to getting that training done.

again, it would most likely be outside ukraine, though. >> pentagon press secretary, retired rear admiral john kirby. as always, thank you for coming on the show and updating users. two russian oligarchs are believed to have killed themselves along with their wives and children. according to the russian news agency. the former vice president of one of the large evidence banks was found dead of a gunshot wound inside a moscow apartment on monday remember investigators say they are working on a theory, he shot his wife and daughter before taking his own life. >> what investigators? russian investigators? do we believe anything they've said? >> it's scary, it's awful. one day later media outlets in spain say the body of another ole dpark was found hanged to death alongside his wife and daughter. it is believed the former vice president of a top russian gas

company killed his family with an axe. >> examine. seriously, what is this? jason borne stuff? are we supposed to believe this. >> neither man were reportedly on the international sanctions list in the ukraine-russian war. >> i don't mean to be skeptical. dam a. father is going to kill his family with an axe and then hang himself? this is ridiculous. this is like all people that speak out against vladimir putin who fall off of balconies and die. c'mon. c'mon. all right. still ahead on "morning joe", how the presidential election in france could have world wide impact on everything from the economy to the role of nato in holding vladimir putin in check. we will go to paris for that story. plus, why the tug-of-war over the cdc and mask guidelines

goes far beyond the covid pandemic. how a judge's ruling could affect public decision long into the future and in our 9:00 a.m. hour of morning joe, an update on one of the most heinous examples of abuse in sports. the new effort being wajd by some of the victims of imprisoned gymnastics coach larry nassar. you with watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. u with watc" we'll be right back. (johnny cash) ♪ i've traveled every road in this here land! ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ crossed the desert's bare, man. ♪ ♪ i've breathed the mountain air, man. ♪ ♪ of travel i've had my share, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere. ♪ ♪ i've been to: pittsburgh, parkersburg, ♪ ♪ gravelbourg, colorado, ♪ ♪ ellensburg, cedar city, dodge city, what a pity. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ole zblomplts ole zblomplt

[sound of helicopter blades] ugh... they found me. ♪ ♪ nice suits, you guys blend right in. the world needs you back. i'm retired greg, you know this. people have their money just sitting around doing nothing... that's bad, they shouldn't do that. they're getting crushed by inflation. well, i feel for them. they're taking financial advice from memes. [baby spits out milk] i'll get my onesies®. ♪ “baby one more time” by britney spears ♪ good to have you back, old friend. yeah, eyes on the road, benny. welcome to a new chapter in investing. [ding] e*trade now from morgan stanley. before discovering nexium 24hr to treat her frequent heartburn... claire could only imagine enjoying chocolate cake. now, she can have her cake and eat it too. nexium 24hr stops acid before it starts for all-day, all-night protection. can you imagine 24 hours without heartburn?

do you think any of us will look back in our lives, and regret the things we didn't buy? (camera shutters) or the places we didn't go. ♪ ♪ (music) who said you have to starve oryourself to lose weight?. who said you can't do dinner? who said only this is good? and this is bad? i'm doing it my way. meet plenity. an fda -cleared clinically proven weight management aid for adults with a bmi of 25-40 when combined with diet and exercise. plenity is not a drug - it's made from naturally derived building blocks and helps you feel fuller and eat less. it is a prescription only treatment and is not for pregnant women or people allergic to its ingredients. talk to your doctor or visit myplenity.com to learn more. ♪ it wasn't me by shaggy ♪ you're never responsible for unauthorized purchases on your discover card.

why do people who live with generalized myasthenia gravis want a new treatment option? because we want to be able to get up and get ready for work. because the animals need to be cared for, and we like taking care of them. because we want to go out to dinner with our friends. because, in family photos, we want to be able to smile. a new fda-approved treatment for adults with generalized myasthenia gravis could help them do more of the daily activities they care about. to learn more, go to now4gmg.com and talk to your neurologist.

msnbc obtained new audio of mccarthy saying he would encourage donald trump to

resign. an upcoming book entitled, this will not pass, trump, biden and the battle for america's future. mccarthy told a group of republican leaders, quote, i've had it with this guy. the reporters write this. the democrats were driving hard at an impeachment resolution. mr. mccarthy said and they would have the votes to pass it. now he planned to call mr. trump and tell him, it was time for him to go. what he did is unacceptable. nobody can defend that and nobody should defend it. he told the house republican leadership team. the "new york times" stated in its original reporting that it had of the republican leader's remarks, but mccarthy still denied it, calling the report, quote, totally false and wrong. nbc news also reached out for comment, asking if mccarthy said he would push trump to resign a.

spokesman again denied mccarthy said it. len e then last night reporters providing this audio to msnbc. >> lirksz you on the phone? >> yes, aim here. i guess there's a question. when we were talking about the 25th eemt resolution. >> yeah. >> is there any chance you are hearing he might resign? is there any reason to think that might hap? >> i had a few discussion. my gut tells me no i'm seriously thinking of having that conversation with him tonight. i haven't talked to him in a couple days. from what i know of him, i mean you guys all know him, too, do you think he'd ever back away? but what i think i'm going to do is i'm going to call him. this is what i think.

we know that it will pass the house. i think there's a chance it will pass the senate, even when he's gone. and i think there's a lot of different ramifications for that. now, i haven't had a discussion with the democrats, that if he did resign, now, this is one fern e personal feeling i have. i do not want to get into any conversation about pence pardoning. the only discussion i would have with him is that i think this will pass, and it would my recommendation that you should resign. i mean, that would be my take. but i don't think he would take it. but i don't know. >> nbc reached out to mccarthy's office for comment after the audio was released. we heard nothing. let's bring in the producer of "the circus," john heilemann and

sam stein, it's good to have you both in here. it is remarkable listening to that and yet again here we have somebody in trump's republican party even when talking about getting rid of donald trump that lies through their teeth, kevin mccarthy denies, his people denies he says this, calls reporters liars. he is then provided a transcript. denies it. then the audio tape comes out he is a liar. this is the same thing that happened in that 2016 tape came out that said that where kevin mccarthy was telling republican leaders that donald trump was on putin's payroll and said, swear to god, i think he is paid up. he denied it. he was shown the tran script he said that is fake news and then when they played the tape. he said, oh, he was just joking. this doesn't sounds like a joke. this sounds like a man who will

lie through his teeth and do anything to be speaker of the house. is that now in danger because of this tape? >> morning, guys. well, is it in danger, joe? it's definitely in danger. i'm in south florida right now, probably not very far. i can't mention the miles from where i am from mar-a-lago. that's where the future of kevin mccarthy lies. now, it has been donald trump and what reaction is this going to be? we have no idea what the private conversations of trump and mccarthy have been the last 12 hours, in the last 24 hours, in the weeks before that or before january 7ing of 2021. so, trump is not going to punish mccarthy for lying? there is no bigger liar in the eastern world than donald trump. that is not going to be the standard. the standard is going to be does trump feel as though he is betrayed by mccarthy. that question is what the whole future of mccarthy's speakership

rests on. to win the speakership vote, you go to get a majority of the house, so the number of votes mccarthy needs will be an awful lot no democrat will vote for him for speaker. depending on how big the republican majority in the house, assuming they get one. there will be a relatively narrow margin, if trump doesn't want him to be the speaker, he would be done him mccarthy has hourly weeks to make it up to trump, how offended trump is. i think you will see kevin mccarthy doing extraordinary bowing and kneeling and subjugateing and kill his future. >> it's hard for me to see trump not doing that, willie, when you look at the fact that we have, of course this audio tape now

where he's scheming with liz cheney to get donald trump out of the white house and get him to resign. we got him on the floor, where he is blaming january the 6th on donald trump. we have him talking to other members after january the 6th saying that he screamed and yelled at donald trump when trump suggested that it wasn't his people there that were rioting. we have him saying donald trump is on putin's payroll. that's on audio tape as well. yee, willie, i think this may be the final straw. for a guy who never learned the lesson, you can't bow and scrape to donald trump enough. he will end up throwing you under the bus, no matter what. >> donald trump uncharacteristically quit the last two days. we'll see if he speaks out about kevin mccarthy on the tames.

on the other hand, he knows that kevin mccarthy will always be his lap dog. he wants kevin mccarthy perhaps to be speaker so he doesn't go as hard as you might think. sam stierngs what an extraordinary snapshot. that was january 10th four days after the attack on the capitol, liz cheney and kevin mccarthy on the same pages that this was a terrible thing something had to be done about it. kevin mccarthy was going to ask trump to resign. what happened from there? kevin mccarthy totally changed his tube. he was at mar-a-lago a few weeks ago, as a matter of fact, trying to run liz cheney out of the party. he is supporting a challenger to liz cheney in wyoming to her race. he has made liz cheney a pariah, yet, sam, he completely agreed with her in real time. >> not only that, there is a few little gems sprinkled on that recording. if you noticed the first line, he revealed they had a separate

conversation earlier, in which they were using the 25th amendment. that's now revealed. they'd love to hear a recording of that phone call, too, if one exists. secondly, he talks about making sure pence doesn't retroactively pardon trump. he was thinking ahead to make sure whatever punishment they gave to trump was permanent. so it's one thing to say kevin mccarthy wanted to push him out of office. it's deeper than. that he was scheming things by not just having a phone call. of course, that's now passeding within a couple weeks, he was in mar-a-lago begging for forgiveness, for trump, the past may irritate him. he knows that mccarthy is subjugated, a loyalist at this point in time. i think tore that point alone, trump end up forgiving him for this and doesn't interfere.

>> thank you both for being on this morning. coming up, we'll turn overseas to the hard-not presidential election if france. nbc news' keir simmons has the latest on a race with global implications. that's next on "morning joe." implications that's next on "morning joe. wealth is breaking ground on your biggest project yet. worth is giving the people who build it a solid foundation. wealth is shutting down the office for mike's retirement party. worth is giving the employee who spent half his life with you, the party of a lifetime. ♪ ♪ wealth is watching your business grow. worth is watching your employees grow with it. ♪ ♪

[♪♪] worth is watching your eif you have diabetes,. it's important to have confidence in the nutritional drink you choose. try boost glucose control®. it's clinically shown to help manage blood sugar levels and contains high quality protein to help manage hunger and support muscle health. try boost® today. before nexium 24hr, anna could only imagine a comfortable night's sleep without frequent heartburn waking her up. now, that dream... . ...is her reality. nexium 24hr stops acid before it starts, for all-day, all-night protection. can you imagine 24 hours without heartburn?

when you join ihop's new rewards program, the international bank of pancakes, and start stacking pancoins toward free food, you get a smile on your plate. download the app and join the rewards program today. [sound of helicopter blades] ugh... they found me. ♪ ♪ nice suits, you guys blend right in. the world needs you back. i'm retired greg, you know this. people have their money just sitting around doing nothing... that's bad, they shouldn't do that. they're getting crushed by inflation. well, i feel for them. they're taking financial advice from memes. [baby spits out milk] i'll get my onesies®. ♪ “baby one more time” by britney spears ♪ good to have you back, old friend. yeah, eyes on the road, benny. welcome to a new chapter in investing. [ding] e*trade now from morgan stanley. [copy machine printing] ♪

♪ who would've thought printing... could lead to growing trees. ♪ ♪ baby got back by sir mix-a-lot ♪ unlimited cashback match... growing trees. only from discover.

. welcome back to "morning joe." the candidates for the french presidency are campaigning hard in the final days before sunday's vote. nbc senior correspondent keir simmons is in par res with the

latest. >> reporter: this morning marie le pen with a flag far right, not been in france since world war ii. why do you support marie le pen? >> immigration. >> reporter: because of imfromition? >> she's glorious. >> reporter: le pen opened supporting president putin and quick to congratulate president trump in 2016, riding a familiar ain't establishment way against the current president emanuel macron, polls suggest he'll hold on to power. listen to huh reluctant she is to admit it. >> i think i'm going with the other candidate. >> reporter: the other candidate, not macron? >> no. >> reporter: you don't want to say her name. >> because it's not my political -- >> reporter: the win over wavering voters leak that, le pen has focused on the soaring deposit of living and posts pictures on social media with

her cat. the candidates clashing for the first time on television this week. we are watching the debate with a group of students, none of them don't like macron, they definitely don't like le pen. yet their vote could determine the future of europe. macron accused her of financial connections with putin. she called him elitist. young voters none inspired. >> none of them talk about how it is to be in this country. >> reporter: macron fighting for every vote. >> i think he's solid, this woman says, and loves his country. this weekend, french voters will decide. the world will be watching. >> if you vote le pen, you vote for putin and you vote for the western world, a huge world surviving. >> that was nbc news' keir simmons reporting. you'd think golfers would welcome tourism in their state?

coming up, not ron desantis. apparently, he is attacking a crusade against disney. details on that. and the gop's wider result on free speech next on "morning joe." ch next on "morning joe. bipolar depression. it made me feel trapped in a fog. this is art inspired by real stories of bipolar depression. i just couldn't find my way out of it. the lows of bipolar depression can take you to a dark place. latuda could make a real difference in your symptoms. latuda was proven to significantly reduce bipolar depression symptoms and in clinical studies, had no substantial impact on weight. this is where i want to be. call your doctor about sudden behavior changes or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. report fever, confusion, stiff or uncontrollable muscle movements, which may be life threatening or permanent. these aren't all the serious side effects. now i'm back where i belong.

ask your doctor if latuda is right for you. pay as little as zero dollars for your first prescription. ["only wanna be with you" by hootie & the blowfish] discover is accepted at 99% of places in the u.s. ["only wanna be with you" by hootie & the blowfish] [zoom call] ...pivot... work bye. vacation hi! book with priceline. 'cause when you save more, you can “no way!” more. no wayyyy. no waaayyy! no way! [phone ringing] hm. no way! no way! priceline. every trip is a big deal.

i brought in ensure max protein, with thirty grams of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks! (sighs wearily) here i'll take that! (excited yell) woo-hoo! ensure max protein. with thirty grams of protein, one gram of sugar, and nutrients to support immune health. [sound of helicopter blades] one gram of sugar, ugh... they found me. ♪ ♪ nice suits, you guys blend right in. the world needs you back. i'm retired greg, you know this.

people have their money just sitting around doing nothing... that's bad, they shouldn't do that. they're getting crushed by inflation. well, i feel for them. they're taking financial advice from memes. [baby spits out milk] i'll get my onesies®. ♪ “baby one more time” by britney spears ♪ good to have you back, old friend. yeah, eyes on the road, benny. welcome to a new chapter in investing. [ding] e*trade now from morgan stanley.

. with some of the mixed messaging when it comes to masks on planes and trains, some cities now are issuing their on mandates. morgan chesky has details. >> reporter: this morning somehow experts fear the federal mask mandate struck down could inadvertently have a far-reaching impact on the cdc. the white house defending an appeal by the justice department. >> it's really important we reserve the authority of the

cdc, the ability of the cdc to be able to reach out in public hem st crises like this -- health crises like this one and become normal. >> some city agencies are saying not so fast n. l.a. county, a new order requires masking up on all public transit, buses, trains, taxis and ride sharing services as well as inside bus terminals and busy lax. as l.a. tells riders to mask up, philadelphia, where there has been a matchwork of rules is set to end its indire riernlths citing hospitalizations and a leveling of cases the different rules forcing some travelers to make their own call. >> i just know it's no confusion wearing them. >> the biggest names in domestic air travel standing if i recall on no mandated max in the sky. >> i think it's very unlikely a

mask requirement is going to come back any team in the foreseeable future. >> we have to do something that makes sense. right now, we need to get them back to servicing. >> president biden also weighing in on the deba it. >> mr. president, should people continue to wear masks on planes from that's up to them. >> reporter: now with the justice department appeal in play, legal experts see a potentially dangerous precedent on the horizon. >> if they lose the appeal, it can forever handcuff the cdc and that would be a real problem because when the next big crisis hits, we want a cdc that's strong, nimble and decisive. >> that was nbc's morgan chesky reporting. coming up, governor ron desantis says he likes neither can sell culture or government interference. >> that's curious. >> so why is he doing both with his campaign against disney? we'll get into that. a programing note as we go to

break, the prime time event, inspireing america is back for a second year honoring true leaders who are making an impact in their communities, you can watch the 2022 inspiration list saturday may 7th on msnbc, cnbc, sunday may 8th on telemundo. you can stream it on today all day nbc news now and msnbc hub on peacock. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. >> never be afraid of your strength, because your body is capable of amazing things.

own your strength, and see how far it takes you. tonal. be your strongest. [ joe ] my teeth were a mess. i had a lot of pain. as far as my physical health, my body was telling me you got to do something. and so i came to clearchoice. your mouth is the gateway to your body. joe's treatment plan was replacing the teeth with dental implants from clearchoice. [ joe ] clearchoice has changed my life for the better. it's given me my health back. there's an amazing life out there if you do something for your health now. ♪ ♪ i'm the latest hashtag challenge. and everyone on social media is trying me. i'm trending so hard that “hashtag common sense” can't keep up. this is going to get tens and tens of views. ♪ ♪ ( car crashing ) ♪ ♪

but if you don't have the right auto insurance coverage, you could be left to pay for this... yourself. call a local agent or 1-888-allstate for a quote today. ♪ we could walk forever ♪ ( ♪♪ ) ♪ walking on ♪ ♪ walking on the moon ♪ ♪ some ♪ ♪ may say ♪ ♪ i'm wishing my days away ♪ ♪ no way ♪ ♪ walking on the moon ♪ ♪ ♪ nice suits, you guys blend right in. the world needs you back. i'm retired greg, you know this. people are taking financial advice from memes. [baby spits out milk] i'll get my onesies®. ♪ “baby one more time” by britney spears ♪ e*trade now from morgan stanley.

with my hectic life, you'd think retirement would be the last thing on my mind. thankfully, voya provides comprehensive solutions, and shows me how to get the most out of my workplace benefits. voya helps me feel like i got it all under control. voya. well planned. well invested. well protected.

florida's republican governor ron desantis is one step closer to his goal of punishing disney after the company's ceo criticized the

state's parental rights in education legislation after it became law. nbc news correspondent kara sander joins us from orlando with the latest. kerry? >> reporter: good morning. you know, legislation usually takes time to work out and then there is a period of deliberate discussion. but in this case, the move to strip disney of its self-governance is happening in a matter of days and with no debate. >> senator bradley, senate bill -- >> reporter: chaos erupting thursday in florida's house chamber. >> the previous question. [ screams ] >> reporter: it was so disorderly, no one debated if disney should lose its self-governing authority. lawmakers just voted. >> the bill passes. >> reporter: all that's needed now to dissolve what was established back in 1967, the

governor's signature. republican governor ron desantis pushed to end disney's self-rule but only after the entertainment company called for the repeal of florida's parental rights in education law. what protesters have dubbed the "don't say gay" law. it bans classroom discussion on sexual orientation and gender identity in kindergarten through third grade. but dismantling disney's self-government known as the reedy creek improvement district comes at a cost. firefighters, ems, power, and other government functions on the 40 square miles that include disney world are mostly paid by disney. >> it could be a financial fiasco for orange county residents. >> reporter: orange county tax collector scott randolf, a democrat, says reedy creek funds more than $100 million in recurring costs as well as a

billion-dollar debt obligation. without it, the disney money stops. where does the money come from, taxpayers? >> it would have to. because the minute that reedy creek doesn't exist, that money doesn't exist. >> reporter: we pulled an actual tax bill for a three-bedroom, two-bathhouse in orange county, currently the homeowners paying more than $4,000 in taxes, slightly more than a thousand of that going to the county. without reedy creek, randolf says that portion of the tax bill climbs 25% to $1,300 every year. >> i mean, nobody wants to pay more taxes, but there's nothing we can do. >> reporter: and so the home we're talking about in that example is about a $200,000 home. in florida, your property taxes are established based on the time you buy your house and what you pay. so a $400,000 house, a $600,000 house, all of them would see a similar 25% increase in the tax

bill. so it could be very costly and then of course businesses are also taxed that would have to make this up. one thing that i find very curious here, joe, is that there are some constitutional questions as to whether it would simply take the governor's signature, which is expected later today to dissolve now the reedy creek improvement district. it is possible here that there needs to be a vote of the local community to do that. that would mean the self-governoring group of the reedy creek improvement district, disney itself, would have to vote themselves out of existence, which at the end of the day means call in the lawyers, joe. >> kerry, you know the old florida politician me, i find this hard to believe, to get my arms around that you have florida politicians who are attacking disney world, attacking the magic kingdom, which, as you know very well, created modern florida, created

the florida that we all know. i'm just wondering whether you picked this up because i'm picking a little bit of this in tallahassee, that some of these republicans maybe like the dog that caught the car. they don't know what to do now. i'm sure that a lot of these republicans did not expect to move this quickly and do not want to hide taxes by a billion dollars on central florida residents. >> reporter: well, you know, many people have said this was not thought through because this is a political retribution against disney by the republican governor ron desantis and those who are in the republican party. so when you start considering that we're in the i-4 corridor, orange countycounty which deter how this state goes in terms of

voting, if you're sticking it to taxpayers and they pay more, there could be some repercussions for those who have been elected into office and really for the republican party in general. a lot of this stuff needs to be sorted out, but there are many folks waking up today going wait a second, i'll have to pay more in my property taxes because of this? and why? >> no, thank you. >> kerry sanders, thank you for being here. let's bring in the senior editor of "the dispatch," columnist for "the atlantic" and elise jordan and donny deutsch back with us as well. david, as you and i know, the republican party, the trump wing of the republican party, which is most of the republican party right now, has been engaging in really stupid reform tif politics over the past five, six years, talking about building the wall when of course when

republicans were in power they were, like, wait, we don't want to build a wall. that was just a punch line in donald trump's speeches. you have lindsey, you have cornyn, all of these other republicans that when they had the chance said no, a wall is a stupid idea, it won't work. here you have reform tif politics in florida with a billion-dollar consequence. they're taking on the most beloved institution in the state of florida, and we just saw this in taxes. the texas governor trying to own the libs ended up costing the texas economy $4 billion. i have to say et, these are idiotic moves by people -- you have to learn the line between reformative politics and real costs for taxpayers. >> it's not just performative to

cheers on the twitter crowd, it's especially in the florida situation, he's taking aim at disney but hitting the 1st amendment. look, it's been the law for a long time in this country that you can't administer -- you can't deny a benefit, a government benefit, based on punitive political retaliation. there's a case going back years, 1996, involving a towing company in illinois that was taken off a list because the towing company wouldn't support the current mayor's re-election effort. the supreme court said you can't do this. this is basic stuff you don't politically retaliate on the basis of the political or cultural stance of a corporation. you know what, joe, i remember the year 2019, all the way back in 2019, when san antonio wouldn't let chick-fil-a operate in its airport. and conservatives were rightly