♪♪ hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. what does it each mean for those of us on planet earth to be a republican in the year of 2022. a wave of primary contests across the country ahead of the midterm elections reveals that the main fault line in the gop is one thing, fidelity to a dangerous conspiracy theory that led to a deadly domestic terror attack at the u.s. capitol. the big lie. the lie goes like this, that the 2020 election was stolen from donald j. trump. the governor who was at the capitol on january 6th and faces a subpoena from the select

committee for his role in facing a false slate of electors for donald trump was so committed to the big lie that he said that he would completely purge the voter rules there. >> i get to appoint the secretary of state of state and that secretary of state will clean up the election logs. you have to re-register and we'll start all over again. >> what could go wrong? >> earlier this week in michigan, republicans nominated a trump-endorsed election denier. who has appeared in qanon rallies to be the state's top election official and they nominated another 2020 election denier who sued to overturn michigan's 2020 election results to be their candidate for attorney general. the seemingly relentless march of big lie republican candidates faces its biggest test perhaps in georgia where as we reported earlier this week, trump endorsed election fraud conspiracy theorists. david purdue is running on a

platform of lies about the 2020 election in his bid to unseat sitting republican governor brian kemp from "the washington post," with less than a month to go, purdue's laser-light focus election fraud seems to be falling flat. kemp, who has avoided criticizing trump has logged double-digit leads in recent public polls and enjoys a fast fund-raising advantage. the race perhaps more than any other in the country represents a test. both in the power of trump's endorsement and the potency of his false 2020 fraud claims as a motivating force among republican voters this year. a purdue defeat could help defy the limits to both. it is against the backdrop of the big lie and its animating force in the republican party in these 2022 primaries and the january 6th select committee is conducting it's wide-ranging

investigation and preparing to make all of the evidence they gathered and preparing their testimony public. in the last hour bennie thompson told nbc news that the committee is preparing to ask several republican lawmakers once again to appear before the committee. there will be at least eight public hearings beginning in june in which the committee will tell the full story, the true story of the insurrection. what happened, why it happened and what could be done to make sure it doesn't ever happen again. it comes in the new reporting that those who spread the big lie and those who profited off of the big lie before it led to the capitol insurrection are also under scrutiny from the select committee. politico reports this, quote, multiple current and former republican national committee staffers have spoken with the january 6th select committee amid questions about the party's messaging and fund-raising in the weeks after the 2020 election. the interviews underscore the select committee's interest in how political messaging by the

national gop apparatus which partnered with the trump campaign on digital fund-raising efforts may have stoked falsehoods about the 2020 election. committee investigators have said they're interested in who authorized the rnc's specific messaging about the election outcome and whether it played a role in stoking the violent mob that breached the capitol on january 6th. a republican party defined by the big lie is to start the hour. politico national correspondent, also an msnbc contributor. her byline is on that piece of reporting that we started with. also michael steele is here. former rnc chairman and now an msnbc political analyst. amy stoddard is back, associate editor and columnist for real clear politics and bacile sparkle is here with the policy program at hunter college. i want to start with you and i want to dig deeper into your reporteding. i remember that in the reporting in "the new york times" about

the select committee looking into the fraud, the co-mingling of the lie and fund-raising. is that the nexus with this part of the investigation from the 1/6 committee? >> what we know is the committee has specifically shown a lot of interest in people who worked on the rnc's fund-raising and digital operations in the days before and after the january 6th attack. so those are people who would potentially have knowledge and the way that the republican party was raising money off of these lies about the election outcome as well as the way that that strategy was shaping the party's messaging overall. any time you have any political campaign going on, the most complicated legal issue is almost always these fund-raising challenges is complex. you can get in trouble really quick. so that's something that we're

confident that the select committee is interested in. there's just no question on that front. the other thing that's important to remember here is that the rnc leaned really hard into this notion that trump had had the election stolen from him and he was a victim of the dry-by effect and they used fund-raising email as containing those claims to raise tons and tons and tons of money, i believe one number was they raised upwards of $200 million in the time after election day. there are a lot of questions about whether or not the way they used that money and the way they raised it all lines up with the laws that govern the complex work and operating a party apparatus and there's no question that the select committee is keenly interested in and the fact that they had multiple current and former rnc staff cooperating is something that's a real asset to them. at the same time, we have to say it doesn't mean the rnc is

opening their books and playing ball with the select committee. far from it. in fact, the rnc has sued to try to block salesforce, which is the company that helped provide much of its messaging tools from complying with the subpoena from the select committee related to the work that salesforce did on and around january 6th. salesforce released statements indicating we might have accidentally contributed to this violence. the judge is expected to rule at some point this week on whether or not salesforce can cooperate with the committee. >> michael steele, we already know that one of the things that is likely of interest is whether they knew that the messages, and this is all about the rnc messages. the messages were a lie and we already know because it's been reported already and the trump campaign manager authored a memo telling everybody that the stuff

coming out of sydney powell and rudy giuliani's mouth was hogwash, was wrong, was not true. now we don't know the whole chain of command of that memo, but bill steppian, the trump campaign manager was in possession of a memo that circulated among the trump campaign. you tell me, you ran the rnc, a presidential campaign and a general election in the rnc. would they have access to the campaign manager's memo saying that all of rudy giuliani's claims were false? might they be on the d.l.? >> yeah! let me see? yeah. not only would they have access. i wouldn't be surprised if the memo was directed to the chairman of the party. look, of course, they have access to it. it is no secret in this town, no one should be running around acting surprised that there was a direct nexus between the white house political operation and

the republican national committee and in fact, it was largely embedded inside the white house on many occasions and vice versa. so absolutely they would know and they're not going to step outside those bounds. the white house controls the political operations of the party when it's in power whether that's democrat or republican and there's no secret with that part of it. what is important is how they operationalize the desire of the president to steal the election. the desire of the president to win an election he lost and that was operationalized legally. it was operationalized economically through fund-raising and it was operationalized politically through the rnc and all of the ancillary organs of the republican party including the

senatorial committees. so i think it will be very interesting to hear and find out what those staffers said about those operations and the marching orders they were given. there's very clear evidence, there are emails and memos and a paper trail as long as, you know, whatever, but the reality of it is it is there and the commission has it, and i think that that says a lot about how we will further expose the entanglements of the political operation in the white house operations and how, together, they force out into the political landscape. not just a narrative, but an operationalized effort to overturn the election on january 6th. >> yeah. and i mean, i guess you and i are old enough to remember when it was a scandal if you were using a computer inside the white house even if it was a political computer to do

political work during your work day. they were now taking that sort of norm, ethical question and using the white house to overturn the will of the american people and i want to ask you about these primary contests and i want to ask you about judge luttig's comments and you can explain who he is to the republicans, the old republicans because even though he advised mike pence, clearly the david perdues and the big lie advocates aren't listening to him. he talked about trump trying to use the government to overturn the election like this. trump invoking these emergency powers would have been unprecedented in all of american history. he said this in "the new york times" at this moment there's no other way to say it. this is the clearest and most present danger to our democracy, trump's efforts to overturn his

defeat. they're preparing now to lay the groundwork to overturn the election in 2024 where trump is designate to lose the vote for the presidency and when i try to explain who he is to my democratic friends and you take dick cheney as an ideological space on the spectrum and this is sort of his legal analog. >> yes. >> that is how conservative he is in the legal world, right? >> yeah. no. >> explain what it means in the context of the primaries that are very much up in the air and up for grabs. >> well, what the warnings are trying to get folks to understand is look closely at who is being put forward as the standard bearer for the republican party and to represent the party in general elections in november. these are individuals who are bought and paid for by the trump operation. how do we know that in because they sold themselves to the

trump operation. it doesn't take rocket scientists to figure out what's going on where he's candidates are falling all over themselves. witness the senate race among republicans. they couldn't be more trumpy. they couldn't say they were closer to trump and they could not make greater claims about how they were going to further undermine the constitutional normless of this country should they be given power. so you have this judge saying very clearly, look, this is what this is and this is a setup for what's going to be coming down the pike. you've got to pay attention to this. we may not catch it all, and so it is incumbent to get that information and that notice out there. when you look at the trump judges, nicole, who in the 2020 cycle refuted the proposition, turned back the lawsuits and said no, this is not

constitutionally nor legally appropriate, a lot of them were those appointed by donald trump. and so there there is this thread, though, for a lot of these judges that the constitution still matters and we should listen to what they're saying in these rulings and take note of what that means when you look at it politically at the candidates who are lining up to become general election candidates and subsequently the next congressman, senator or whatever. >> and basil, the focus on republicans is because they've been on the democracy question the whole time, but they're not the thread. they don't stand on the intersection of the violent extremism and the belief that the 2020 election was stolen and if you look at it, it's sort of an effort to counter extremists which is what they've become in

the 2020 election. they believe something that is not true. they believe something that chris krebs, a life long republican was the opposite case that the 2020 election results was had in the most secure election in our country's history. the reason i keep highlighting these messages from incredibly conservative voices is i wonder at what point or if ever would democrats try to chief apart the dangerous wing of the republican party, the people peddling the lie and benefiting from the lie and the people who at least see questions of democracy the same way? >> you know, one of the things that i think we could do to start down that path is change the narrative from the big lie to the big criminal conspiracy. >> yes. >> and michael in running the national party is the former executive director of the party and it is striking to me the level of coordination that is

necessary to put out these messages at multiple levels of government. you know, at the state party if any candidate sends out a piece of mail we had to approve that. so the fact that you had all of this money, all of this messaging and whether it's mail and whether it's digital or whether it's just speeches, there is a level of coordination that is almost unprecedented in perpetuating, and i'm going to continue to call it. this criminal conspiracy when you add in and potential tampering with the voting. the concerns that i have with respect to the democratic respond is two things, time and passion. time because, unfortunately, historically in many ways we kind of respond to the very action oriented and we respond to these things with cycles and what is clear is that the republicans did this over an

extraordinarily long period of time, and multiple venues and if you're talking about judges and if you're talking about they're contending and putting up candidates for secretaries of state. those were the kind of things ordinary builders really want to make sure that the party is with the state or national level is really contesting everywhere that it can. >> we saw that in jirja, that needs to be replicated across the country and then passion. i was driving upstate new york a couple of days ago, all rural communities and i'm still seeing trump signs from 2016, from 2020 and a couple for 2024. it should not escape us that whether we like to call it this or not, and whether we acknowledge it or not, there is a significant, political and social movement occurring on the right and this is not something

that democrats can do, can push back against by running a good candidate by talking about what we should and should not be doing and we have to match it with as much or more passion and creative movement on our own. we used to stand for american exceptionalism and 75% of the people that live in the world right now according to research live in countries where their democratic institutions are in danger of collapsing. the united states for the first time is part of that. i have to talk about that in my classes now. >> yeah. >> and so if we're going to be exceptional again, we -- maybe democrats can partner with some republicans to s.t.a.r.t. to call this criminal conspiracy what it really is. >> and a.b., i know this is a topic of a piece you wrote this week and we covered it here. if i were a democratic campaign operative here's the point i would push back with.

mitch mcconnell referred donald trump for a investigation, bill barr described donald trump unfit for office and both men said they'll vote for him again in 2024 help while judge luttig's comments are a warm knife through ice, cold butter of the republican intransigence, but i think this idea that republicans are zealots in their anti-democrat conduct in the voting restrictions. they're passing buddy restrictions in states without allegations of fraud. florida stood up and said our state is a model and they still went ahead and passed voting restrictions. texas went for trump big time and trump asked them to and they recounted several counties in texas and the zealousness to carry the lie to drag out approximately sees and we found a great person to run for the

district. how do you be in the moment to sabotage the right? >> i don't know if democrats can make their appeals as emotional as the ones that are so compelling on the right to voters on the right, but i know this will fall on the democrats. when you ask about conservatives warning about this kind of thing and how it will affect the primaries. it won't because establishment republicans and the primaries are not fighting back to any extent that we can see. they're not mobilizing to stop. these big candidates across the board are largely going to succeed and be able to create narratives of fraud at the state level where they have desertification at the state level so that the federal level by the time the certification process comes to congress, if there's protections against another insurrection at the capitol or an amended electoral count act where congress is not

going to be able it to play games anymore, they intend to stop the count and the certification at the state level. that is the goal of these candidates as they're not being shy about it. these are happening in primaries. the general election season this year democrats will be facing off against big-lie candidates who are in positions to open the books and they must prepare for this. it's a reality and biden will have to talk about it at the federal level. members of congress will have to address this even in their races if they're not running against someone for secretary of state or attorney general. this has to be addressed head on. it cannot be side swept. whether or not the passion will equal on the right is -- is irrelevant. they have to tell the voters that these people have run on campaigns in their primaries when swing voters were general

election voters weren't paying attention and they have to tell them what their intentions are and they have to be preparing for it now. there is an army, remember, not just of candidates. steve bannon on his very, very, very podcast since january 6th that they need to control the elections and they need shock troops and they are volunteering everywhere to be poll watchers and election workers and volunteers. this is not just people who will win elections to get out the count and corrupt the count. it will be from the bottom up. if democrats don't wake up to this, they can't mitigate the damage and it has to be their singular focus this fall. >> we have some new reporting about the plan for public hearings where a lot of this will come up, and i want to ask all of you about it, and everyone is sticking around. on top of that we will cover the ongoing fallout among republicans in congress from

that really shocking leaked audio of house leadership describing for a moment how they really felt about even other on january 6th. will they need to grovel for forgiveness from one member who committed illegal acts and happens to be facing allegations of sex trafficking a minor. he got the apology. plus signs that the biden administration is preparing for ukraine to remain in its fight against russia for the long haul. president biden asking congress for an additional $33 billion in foreign aid. later in the show the january 6th committee bringing in another member of donald trump's innermost circle and they'll speak to rudy giuliani soon. congresswoman zoloft will be our guest and all of that and more when deadline: white house continues after a quick break. stay with us. white house continues after a quick break. stay with us

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and it can connect hundreds of devices at once. that's powerful. unbeatable internet from xfinity. made to do anything so you can do anything. >> there's a lot of information that we're gathering, and i think when we put that all in front of the american people, some of the stuff is known, some of it is unknown, and when we put it in a narrative form. a i this is a danger and b, this is what happened. it goes to show that the american public still needs to know about it. what's most concerning to me is less about what happened that day. that was bad, but what were the conditions that led to this and how did we fix them because i don't think we have. >> that was january 6th select committee member adam kinzinger with garrett haake on the mission of the select committee as it gets ready to make this

big pivot to share everything they've got in their far-ranging probe with the public. betsy, i want to just follow up with some nbc news reporting that eight public hearings starting in june are what they planned. they will re-ask the republican lawmakers, liz cheney who was in leadership have said what they have known for a very long time and it's not just house members or people that were asked that will include the folks like leader kevin mccarthy. will it include senators we asked? perhaps cruz and lee whose texts have been part of the mark meadows text message dump. i wonder, betsy, if you will get them returned and the idea of the narrative to be not just written in the report, but told through the public for eight hearings and what sorts of lessons are a applying to hold

donald trump accountable? >> the biggest takeaway that the members have gotten to do this work harkens back to special counsel robert mueller's russia probe. congressman schiff was a key player into trump's relationship with russian nationals and one reason that many congressional democrats think that that probe didn't have a larger impact on the public perception of trump was because they felt ultimately the hearings that resulted from that probe congressional featuring counsel mueller didn't tell the story in a way that was accessible to most americans and special counsel mueller's team put out a multi-hundred page report and it was two volumes that was not super user

friendly. the most typical americans who didn't have a lot of free time on their hands wanted to get home after a long day of working and that was something that was quite disappointing and the challenge for the january 6th select committee is how do they take all of the information that they have and just a massive, vast amount of information and process it for people who perhaps are newer to this story and you and i and folks watching this show might be. for us, the biggest question is what does the select committee know that we don't know? what scoop is the select committee sitting on, but the target audience for the committee is likely to be the much broader group of americans who know what happened on january 6th in broad brush terms, but who haven't closely tracked the steps and the twists and the turns of this investigation. the fact that they're having eight hearings is notable because that's a lot of hearings. we're talking an hbo mini

series-plus of content that the select committee will be putting out. >> most people won't watch congressional hearings on anything, so how does the committee structure these hearings. how do they organize them? do they have audio, visual companion content that could be shorter, more shareable ask accessible to typical people. these are all questions that the people will be processing for the next month as they gear out for the rollout of what they've found over the course of this immense investigation. >> you know, michael steele, i spent time in the communications side and my time in politics and just what the committee has and congressman kinzinger says there is a lot that you don't know is the code red on every page. on every page. you have kevin mccarthy, damn right laws i thought were broken. you have donald trump, damn right i wanted to use the u.s. pentagon, the state department and dhs to seize voting machines and what the committee has an opportunity to do, is say, adam

schiff this time, not even robert mueller who worked for republicans after 9/11 and all of you. i think robert mueller was in front of congress more times than any other government official ever in light of the fact that they led the fbi, but it didn't matter. they turned them into someone like you and me, michael steele, someone who goes on msnbc and tells the truth of what the republican party has become. all of them are inside the trump tent. the opportunity they have is to recede and let trump's people explain what they did. >> i absolutely agree and i love the idea of an hbo mini series starring the january 6th -- absolutely that's what you want to do. i mean, look, since republicans have this nexus and connections to hollywood and get them to write some of this script out if need be. you've got to tell this story in

a way that captures the attention, the imagination, the energy of the country. take us into the summer, baby. i'm at the beach with an ice, cold drink with my feet up, listening and watching what is going on with these hearings. that's where they need this thing to go to. look, you don't have any runway left here. there is nothing left to do at this point except sell, sell, sell. we are fix atsed on what, you know, elon musk is doing on twitter. we are fixated on whether donald trump will get back on twitter. baby, you need to eclipse that level of attention-grabbing nonsense to something that's substantive and real for the country. so they need to bring not just an a game. they need to redefine what the a-game is with this. the only thing at stake here is

democracy itself. i'm not trying to scream and shout something that isn't true. everybody knows it. and my hearing, outside of my hearing knows it because come november 4th, you get this part of the movie, the mini series wrong, the rest of the movie, baby, you don't want to watch. >> basil, i never -- i never pick on you because i pick on the democrats and it's all i've got on this experiment in democracy. i'm coming back to you as aes is vessel and not a target of my exasperation. democrats believe that there is a hard wiring and they can only talk about one thing, and i would just pause it that you walk around new york or frankly, all across the midwest and there are churches and schools with jars outside of ukraine.

one, there is a democracy being attacked by brutal autocratic leader in vshg lad mir putin and two, eight weeks ago their lives were a lot like our lives. americans care about democracy if they can be made to understand what happens if you lose it, and i wonder. i saw you nodding at michael steele, what is your advice? >> i think everything that's been said about getting that narrative right is incredibly important because we need to get people to buy into why -- what's happening here and the consequences if this is allowed to occur and metastasize into something larger that we probably can't comprehend at this moment, but in addition to the narrative, one thing that really is important for me and i think for so many people is the notion of accountability. okay. so let's say that we find that all of these folks who we're

bringing to the table and who we're bringing in front of us, we find that they did do something wrong. what then? >> yeah. >> the one challenge that i think we had with the impeachment hearings and the russia probe is that there was this sense that trump's not going to get punished, that a lot of the other folks who were involved may not get published in the way that we think that we should be and there's again, this sense that a lot of people who should be in jail, who should be punished in other ways are not going to get punished and that, i think, is the important part of extending the narrative. yes. this is must-see tv, but at the end of the day there are people who are going to go to jail as a result of this, and we need to be able to talk that up a lot more, as well, and the fear that i have is that if there isn't accountability, the democrats

won't have anything after the january 6th hearing to be able to go after, and then we're in a world of trouble at that point because that suggests to me and to probably some of the others that the republicans will be able to get away with anything and at that point, how do we stop that? >> yeah. you know, what's interesting, a.b., is if you step back, donald trump waged a war against a rule of law, against jim comey personally, andrew mccabe personally, and pete strzok personally, jeff sessions he made cry, bill barr, you know, writes about being screamed at, but that's a little more of the tarantulas in a bowl if you ask me, and the people who no longer believe in the rule of law are aren't the republicans. it's the democrats. >> democrats believe in the rule

of law. >> democrats don't believe that it applies evenly. the lack of thinking that these are potent, political issues is because democrats think that if robert mueller wrote a volume this big the second half there were six criminal acts that donald trump had engaged in and there were no consequences for him. the extortion of president zelenskyy was a clear abuse of power. they saw the republicans just shrug their shoulders and say i don't think so and then they saw republicans participate in condemning donald trump and he wasn't convicted for that, so what the republican rule on the rule of law did to the country, basil's been talking about 40 minutes about a criminal conspiracy and if if he took it to campaign operatives, maybe, maybe not, people don't really believe that they're held accountable to the same rule of law that we are. people don't believe that the

rule of law is for every american and no matter their standing and the proximity to power are by and large, democrats and independents. not republicans. >> it is unfortunate that democrats are afraid of this subject because they think it doesn't poll well and that americans don't care about the threats to democracy and the erosion of the rule of law by the right in the last six years. yes. they also know that voters are burnt out on the fact that people who -- who melt the rule of law in our institutions face no accountability and someone like donald trump has gotten away with everything. this is part of the reason why i wrote that piece. look at what the republicans have gotten away with. don't you think it's important that we discuss before they take control of the congress? it's really -- it's tough for

democrats to face this, but they don't really have a choice and they're optimistic than anyone else about the january 6th hearing. i do believe they know what happened. they know the democrats as a party did not respond that bill barr destroyed the mueller report, and the idea of it being amplified and digested by the american public by lying about it and not releasing it until three weeks after he lied about it and the democrats did not fight back about that. i think they learned and they have been burned and i do believe that as betsy describes, they are trying to make this coverageling and if you don't don't sit down to ride the hearings. it will be shared, it will be talked about and parts of it will go quite viral and it would

woshl through and they go with the invest dwagdz and the administration. >> i think so, too. i think michael steele's idea, take it to hbo. michael steele, bacile smarkel, thank you for joining us. ambassador michael mcfall is our guest. stay with us. ambassador michael mcfall is our guest. stay with us over-the-counter eye drops typically work by lubricating your eyes and may provide temporary relief. those'll probably pass by me. xiidra works differently, targeting inflammation that can cause dry eye disease. xiidra? no! it can provide lasting relief. xiidra is approved to treat the signs and symptoms of dry eye disease. don't use if you're allergic to xiidra. common side effects include eye irritation,

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>> bottom line, all of these actions we've been taking are about the truth, this truth, investing in ukraine's freedom and security is a small price to pay to punish russian aggression to lessen the risk of future conflicts. throughout our history we've learned that when dictators do not pay the price for their a dregz they cause more chaos and engage in more aggression. they keep moving. the cost, the threats to america and the world keep rising. we can't let this happen. >> president biden on the cost of allowing russia to continue the war against ukraine. cost isn't cheap. the president asking congress for another $33 billion for military and humanitarian relief

as they have the conflict to stretch for months and they're seeking new legal powers to enforce sanctions on the creme line propose the authority to liquidate assets and pay the funds toward the ukrainian war effort. all of that comes as ukraine files the first criminal charges against russia. the ukrainian prosecutors investigating war crimes in bucha named ten individual russian soldiers accused of taking civilian hostages and they covered 400 dead civilians after russian forces retreated late last month. joining us is former ambassador to russia michael mcfall. i believe you were the first person i heard say on tv on this show or another one that it was knowable which unit this was and that you could find out exactly the chain of command for the

russian soldiers responsible for the civilian massacre in bucha. what do you make of how quickly charges have been brought for war crimes? >> i think it's fantastic and it sends a powerful signal to soldiers when they learn of this and it will be a deterrent, and i am deeply impressed with the speed with which the ukrainians do everything, nicole, and not just this, but they, i think this is really important what they're doing and that they're doing it quickly matters, as well. >> i want to read just for our viewers who they were because they were awarded by vladimir putin and this is what they face in the rest of the world. all ten were noncommissioned officers and privates from russia's 64 separate guards, motor rifle brigade and one of the units that took part in the

month-long occupation of bucha. putin granted the rifle brigade a guard's honorific in a friday announcement in the telegram's channel. the ministry of defense promoted an officer in the unit to colonel. so for russia, it's not just a parallel reality. it's rewarding the most heinous acts of the war. i'm not sure there is a moment that encapsulates the brutality and reward structure for it. more than this. >> i agree. i've run out offage tifrs to describe how horrible this is, and i don't even like the war because killing children with cruise missiles is not war and the second part is what you just noted and these people are being rewarded. what happened in bucha is not a

mistake. when we kill these people in afghanistan, yes, we killed people in iraq. yes on occasion u.s. forces have killed civilians and it's been by accident and not on purpose and we don't reward soldiers when that happens and we investigate those kinds of killings. this is on purpose. remember, we had talked about this before about bucha. putin could have cleaned up bucha. he could have done that. no, he wanted this to be there as a deterrent to terrorize ukrainian people and that's why he's rewarding these soldiers and i hope some day they will seek -- there will be justice before them through the national channels that the ukrainians are now using. >> amal clooney, a human rights lawyer married to george clooney tried to get the u.n. to not look away. i think that can be harder than people might think about a body like the u.n. let me show you her blunt message about russia's brutality today. >> ukraine is today a slaughterhouse right in the

heart of europe. i still read news headlines not knowing quite how to process them. could it be that thousands of children are being forcibly deported to russia? could it be that teenage girls are being raped in the street in front of their family and their neighbors? was a building that had the word "children" on it really bombed? and are civilians today in mariupol systematically being tortured and starved to death? unfortunately, the answer is yes. >> you know this better than i do, but i think one of the ukrainian's concerns and fears is that not only will we look away, but we'll get numb to it. she seemed to do a service to that end in making sure we do not and that the u.n. does not. what do you think? >> what a great, very powerful,

but two, we need more actions. it's not sufficient just to investigate what's already happened. we need new sanctions. i'm part of a team, a working group of international experts, we just published a big paper last week where one of the things we call for is to label russia a state sponsor of terrorism. there are four countries in the world that the state department does that now. we think russia meets the criteria for that and we lay out many other things. it is not sufficient just to say this is horrific. we now have to act and we have to punish russia, russians, and the entire russian economy so that they'll begin to think about ending this war. >> and you know, i want to ask you about that. we have to sneak in a quick break but i asked congressman jim himes about that and he agreed with you and said speaker pelosi agreed too. i want to press you on where that debate is behind closed doors. press you on where that debate is behind closed doors.

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we're back with former u.s. ambassador to russia, michael mcfaul. so, ambassador mcfaul, what i want to understand is, does the state sponsor of terror designation weaken putin inside russia? does that make it easier for his opponents to say, hey, this is totally off the rails, this is -- he's such a reckless steward of our country, he must go? what do you think the effect would be inside russia? >> well, inside russia, it would make things more financially difficult for russians because when you're on that list, it's

harder to transact with state sponsors of terrorism and i want to remind your viewers, the list right now is north korea, iran, syria, and cuba, and i want people to make me an argument that cuba is sponsoring more terrorism in the world today than russia, and if they're not, then i think we have a moral responsibility to put them on the list. and i do think it makes it much more difficult for transactions to happen, and remember, another really important thing about sanctions, that i think is not well appreciated, when you do a sanction like that, individual businesses also think twice about what they should or should not do with a country like russia. already, several hundred american and european businesses have pulled out because they don't want to be associated with the regime like this. >> and it's a stain that lasts forever. it's an extraordinary step, but you're right, even i've asked state department spokesman ned price and nobody quibbles with the technical definition being

met by what russia is doing in ukraine. we'll stay on it. thank you for raising that today, ambassador mcfaul. thank you so much for your time. pentagon spokesman john kirby will join us in the next hour on what we know about a pair of explosions just this afternoon in kyiv. up next for us, zoe lofgren will be our guest. there's a lot of information out today. we'll talk about it all next. lot today. today. we'll talk about it all next time for ache and burn! over-the-counter eye drops typically work by lubricating your eyes and may provide temporary relief. those'll probably pass by me. xiidra works diffe, targeting inflammation that can cause dry eye disease. xiidra? no! it can provide lasting relief. xiidra is approved to treat the signs and symptoms of dry eye disease. don't use if you're allergic to xiidra. common side effects include eye irritation, discomfort or blurred vision when applied to the eye, and unusual taste sensation. got any room in your eye?

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it's a fraud, an absolute fraud. i mean, you can't just submit these ballots and not have them checked. this election was stolen by mail-in ballots. those are the ballots that were stuck in the machine eight times, nine times, ten times. they elected donald trump. they didn't elect joe biden. joe biden is in the lead because of the fraudulent ballots. let's have trial by combat.

>> literally indecipherable from the "snl" caricature. it's 5:00 in new york. subpoenaed by the 1/6 committee back in january, donald trump's former personal lawyer, rudy giuliani, is a central figure in the story of the ex-president's effort to overturn the results of an election he lost in 2020. rudy giuliani actively spread the big lie, going state to state to state, spouting bogus claims of voter fraud, getting laughed out of court for doing so. he promoted lies about rigged voting systems, lies he's been sued to the tune of $1.3 billion over telling the committee also points out in its subpoena of giuliani this, quote, on january 6th and in the days prior, you were in contact with then president trump and members of congress regarding strategies for delaying or overturning the results of the 2020 election. today, two sources familiar

confirmed to nbc news that rudy is expected to appear before the 1/6 committee soon. no date has been set. giuliani coming before the committee follows other notable appearances by some in donald trump's innermost circle, including his daughter, ivanka, and ivanka's husband, jared. donald trump's son, don junior, is also expected to meet with the 1/6 committee in the very near future. since it began its work, the committee has conducted nearly 900 depositions and interviews and has received more than 102,000 documents. in addition to the mountains of evidence and testimony it has already gathered. the committee is also grappling with this week's bombshell leaks of audio of kevin mccarthy and republican leaders talking amongst themselves in the aftermath of the deadly insurrection, saying, among other shocking things to the rest of us, that donald trump was responsible for the attack, at least partially, and that they were worried that the

incendiary rhetoric from some of their own caucus members in the gop would result in more violence. the mccarthy tapes, along with the thousands of texts obtained by cnn, which we know mark meadows likely handed over to the committee before he stopped cooperating with it, turn up the heat even more on the panel to investigate the full scope of involvement by some congressional republicans in the coup attempt. this afternoon, we heard from committee chairman bennie thompson, who in the last hour, said that the first of at least eight public hearings will take place on june 9th. chairman thompson weighed in on the committee preparing to ask several republican lawmakers to provide testimony. take a listen. >> and then you said by the end of the week, you would decide whether to ask additional republican members to come in. mccarthy was going to be asked. can you give us an update on that in is >> yeah. we will do that. before the week's out. >> for mccarthy? >> and the others too. >> and the others too. so you're going to ask all three

once again, voluntarily, to appear before the committee? >> that's correct. well, some other members will be sent letters, and we plan to provide the press copies of the letters. >> folks, we don't already know about? >> that's correct. well, we will ask more than three people. >> this week? >> who are members. yes. >> all republicans? >> at this point. >> in the house? >> yes. >> any senators? >> yes. >> would i be wrong to say senator cruz, senator lee? >> you got to stand by. >> fun reporting to showcase from my colleague, ali vitali. our first guest joining us right now, congresswoman zoe lofgren of california. always very generation with her time. we have to start by pressing you to see if there's any more you

can tell us about the republicans you will ask again to share their recollections, maybe those audiotapes refresh them, with the 1/6 committee. >> let me just say that as the chairman said, we will be asking quite a few members to come in and speak to the committee and we will release the letters publicly, and here's why i think members may want to respond. we have detailed some of the questions we have based on some of the evidence that we have obtained, so it's not just general, gosh, we'd like to know what's on your mind, but specific areas of inquiry, and i would hope that the members that received these letters would respond, because this is serious stuff. >> congresswoman, the first audiotape that leaked, in a -- it's notable that kevin mccarthy is speaking as though he's

certain that donald trump will be impeached, and he's talking about a pardon. obviously, no one gets pardoned unless they've committed crimes. are you interested in knowing what crimes kevin mccarthy thinks donald trump committed? and is that important enough to subpoena him, if he doesn't come in? >> well, i'll let you just read the letter. you'll have it very soon. that we will be sending to mr. mccarthy. and it outlines what we want to talk to him about. but for myself, he had conversations with the president. we'd like to know about that. when he said the president was to blame privately, he said that publicly right after the insurrection, as did senator mcconnell say that the president did this. so, the fact that it was on tape and, you know, was a private conversation was not that different than what he had said publicly. of course, now he's completely changed his position. we would like to have more information about his communications with the

president, both on the day, and really, we're very interested in the variety of activities that occurred leading up to the 6th, as i've said before. this wasn't just some random event. this -- there were a number of things that preceded it. this was a plot that involved many people, and we need to untangle every element of it. >> you're always very -- you know, there's the sanctity of sort of the evidence that you protect on the part of the investigation that you and your committee and the investigators, many former u.s. attorneys and assistant u.s. attorneys are conducting and we don't get many glimpses of it, but we did in the filing for mr. meadows, and we saw that one of the witnesses, ms. hutchinson, was able to name almost a dozen republican members who were at the white house and made aware of the plans. obviously, something you knew before we did, but does that make it an unacceptable outcome

not to have their information or their testimony in some form as part of your probe? >> well, we are certainly asking a variety of members to come in for a serious reason. we hope that they will. we expect that they will, because not only will they be obliged to do so, but it will be given that we've outlined what the concerns are in these letters. i'm sure they'll want to tell the truth if they think they did a good thing, presumably, they would want to come in and tell the committee about the good that they have done. i do think that as we proceed, and we've -- the chairman has announced we'll be having hearings in june -- we have compiled a huge amount of the information, and as we do, sometimes additional questions are raised, and certainly the

filings in the motion to dismiss on mr. meadows' lawsuit really called out a need for the committee to outline some of the evidence, which we did. i mean, it wasn't everything we have, obvious, but just let the court have some idea of what we were dealing with here. >> and we're going back in time, but we -- we thought it was really striking in that filing, along with ms. hutchinson's testimony, was the sworn testimony to all of you that mr. meadows was made aware of the possibility of violence, which makes some premedicated knowledge of how violent things would become or could become, something that at the highest levels of the white house, they possessed. does that change or alter any of your thoughts? i know it's a deliberation, not a decision point that's been reached about a criminal referral. >> well, obviously, we have to make that decision when we've

finished the whole presentation. i don't think that what happened on the 6th was a minor matter. there was an effort to overturn the constitution, and as judge carter noted in his decision, in california, it was more likely than not that the president and his lawyer, mr. eastman, engaged in criminal activity or fraud. so, the information about prior knowledge of violence is very serious. but it's not the only significant information that we have that leads us to great concern about the actions of many people involved in this plot. >> conservative judge ludig has been quoted in "the new york times" and the "washington post" and he's authored his own post in cnn that shifts the conversation to 2024.

he describes the republican efforts in the states and in congress as a clear and present danger. just a word that has, frankly, a cinematic connotation, but a very real constitutional connotation in the old republican party, the one that i used to work in. do you have a -- an ability to sort of quantify how much of the committee's work will be focus on the safeguarding our elections and our democracy for the next election? >> well, obviously, telling the truth about what almost happened in the 2020 election is part of protecting ourselves in the future. people understand the truth, how close we came to eliminating our system of government, really. but we're also working on a variety of legislative matters that we think will strengthen our democracy, whether or not we can get those all enacted, we don't know yet, but we do think,

first, shining a light, having americans understand the truth is the first, most important thing that we can do to safeguard the democracy. obviously, we're not prosecutors. we're a legislative body. all of our information will be available to the public as well as the department of justice to do whatever they think is right, and that's not our judgment, but we're certainly not going to keep our evidence a secret. >> i want to ask you about rudy giuliani. can you confirm reports that he is scheduled to come before the committee to share something? >> well, as you know, we are -- the rules of the committee prohibit us from confirming who's coming in or not, but you do know that we have asked mr. giuliani to come in for some time. we have a lot of questions for him. we have received a lot of evidence relative to his conduct that we would like to discuss with him. so, i hope that we can soon have

that opportunity. >> i want to just ask you one last question about what you will deem a success. public hearings are now, we have a start date, we know when they'll start. they'll start june 8th. it's clear that the investigation is this churning, massive undertaking, so the timetable makes perfect sense when you get these little glimpses, as i said, a filing here or a revelation there, but i wonder what, in your view, will be deemed a successful phase of public hearings. >> well, i guess i'll leave that up to the public to some extent, but for me, it's to tell the complete story about what happened in a way that's accessible to americans. i mean, we have to go to where people are, not expect them to check out a thousand-page report. we need to explain this in ways

that are truthful, that are credible, understandable, and a result where all of us recommitted to our free democracy, our free democratic republic would be a success. >> including the republican leader. >> you bet. >> congresswoman zoe lofgren, thank you so much for being so generous with your time today. we're grateful. >> thanks. joining our conversation, barbara mcquade, a former u.s. attorney, now university of michigan law professor, with us onset, former top state department official rick stengel. both are msnbc contributors. barb, i start with you. on this information, i won't call it evidence yet because that seems like a term of art, but this information and this audio that we now all know of because of the two "new york times" reporters who have written a book and shared some of their audiotapes that they used for their reporting, we

know that kevin mccarthy thought that donald trump hadn't just committed a crime but that he would certainly be impeached and he didn't want to start talking out loud about the p-word, pardon. no one gets pardoned unless they've committed crimes. what do you do with that in terms of a congressional investigation and if there is one, a doj investigation? >> well, it really begs the question, nicole, about what it was that was on his mind that caused him to believe donald trump had committed crimes. you know, certainly, it may be some of the things we're already aware of, but maybe there's more. kevin mccarthy is a really critically important witness here. i think, you know, for the two different missions that the department of justice have in terms of finding whether there was any kind of criminal conduct that was occurring and needs to be held accountable but also more broadly the congressional inquiry, which is really just figuring out what happened so that they can document it for history and enact any legislation that's necessary to shore up the gaps they were trying to take advantage of. and so, you know, so often, we

see congress really reluctant to call its own, members of its own house, as witnesses, because what goes around comes around and nobody wants to find themselves on the other end of a subpoena down the road. but in this instance, it's so different from normal situations, because the members of the house are the victims themselves. it was an attack on congress. so, i don't see how you get away without talking to mccarthy as a witness. >> and i've lost the plot, rick stengel, other than his political concerns, or his fear of donald trump, and i'm not sure how you win an election for anything if you're a scaredy cat. of why he wouldn't want to share this. this is the best version of kevin mccarthy. let me play some of these tapes that the "new york times" reporters writing "this shall not pass" have obtained and shared. >> let me be very clear to all of you and the president. he bears responsibilities for his words and actions,no if, ands or buts. i asked him personally today, does he hold responsibility for what happened?

does he feel bad about what happened? he told me he does have some responsibility for what happened. and he needed to acknowledge that. >> this isn't a mealy-mouth, squishy or undecided kevin mccarthy. this is -- he bears responsibility for his words and actions, no if, ands or buts, i asked him personally, he told me he does have responsibility for what happened. >> well, if kevin mccarthy had a conversion on the road to damascus, then i would say, yes, i've seen the light. i knew what was the truth, you know, on january 6th and january 11th, but he's an incredible hypocrite, and so i think part of the task of the january 6th committee, as we've been saying, is to tell the story but to tell the story in a way that makes sense to people, that there was this conspiracy to overturn the constitution, this conspiracy to not have a peaceful transfer of power, and that there are people who knew it at the time and still know it and now deny it

and then there were people that were conspiring, probably criminally, to overturn the constitution and obstruct justice. that's the job of the committee. the job of the justice department, as barbara said, is to prosecute, but i think until the american people really know what happened, that's partially what will preserve our democracy. >> well, i mean, i guess if i were to push back, i mean, barbara mcquade, the american people were given all of the information and a lot of people today have made the point that bill barr smeared the results of robert mueller's investigation in the three weeks between its conclusion was announced and its substance was released to the public. but just giving people information seems to be, you know, half of it. i mean, we have this information. we have kevin mccarthy in his own words. we have the evidence that liz cheney, who's on all those recordings, was purged from leadership and kevin mccarthy is funding her primary challenger to try to get her out of the

republican party and out of congress. if you're looking at this in terms of a potential -- whether any crimes were committed, does the conversion really matter? or do you look at the conduct and the words when the incidents or alleged incidents or incidents under scrutiny occur? >> absolutely. i don't think you worry about any sort of conversion that, well, he's seen the light and now everything's okay. i think it is important to separate the two things and the two functions. the justice department's role and congress's role. just as we saw with the 9/11 commission report, they gathered all the evidence, they figured out what happened in congress, and then they enacted legislation to shore up some holes that existed in the law to prevent problems from occurring again. that needs to happen on the congressional side. on the justice department side, i think if they can put together enough evidence to find crimes that were committed and to me, the two i would be looking for here are conspiracy to defraud the united states, which is a

fraud scheme to obstruct the proper functioning of government, or conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, and it seems like there's lots of good evidence to support those things. if they can find enough to prove a case beyond a reasonable doubt, i think holding people accountable is critically important to sending a strong message of deterrence and to protecting the institutions of our government. >> and i think that's why we're watching. they have already charged some of the insurrectionists with those charges, right, obstructing an official proceeding and i think three jury trials that have been had, they've all been found guilty. on all counts. so we keep an eye on that for that very reason. barbara mcquade, thank you so much for spending time with us and making sense of it. rick sticks around for the hour. when we come back, with republicans still pushing big lie candidates to oversee, of all things, elections, in swing states, all across this country, from one coast to the other, one democrat is launching a brand-new effort to take them on and fight back. former senate candidate amy

mcgrath is making a big announcement. she makes it right here with us next. plus, on the ground in ukraine, where officials in kyiv report two new russian strikes against the ukrainian capital. we'll have the live report from there. and later, pentagon press secretary john kirby will be our guest on how president biden's request for more military aid will help ukraine defeat the russian army. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. >> tech: when you have auto glass damage, trust safelite. this dad and daughter were driving when they got a crack in their windshield.

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here in washington, they don't build monuments to secretaries of state, but maybe they should. donald trump thinks this is the

weakest link in the chain because it's an office no one pays attention to. so, he's been recruiting election deniers to run for secretary of state in crucial swing states this year. people who will do whatever he asks when they count the ballots in the next presidential election. we have to stop this from happening. >> it's the story we led with the top of the last hour. that's amy mcgrath there, about to join us with her brand-new announcement on this fight, her fight against the disgraced ex-president's attempt to hand-pick election deniers for secretaries of state to replace those few who bravely walk the line and did their jobs and likely had more to do than anybody else in preventing his attempt to overturn the result of the 2020 election. here's what she's talking about. in georgia, there's congressman jody hice, who, according to the january 6th committee testimony, participated in a white house meeting on overturning the 2020 election. he's now campaigning for

secretary of state on donald trump's lies about the election result. in arizona, state congressman mark finchum, a member of the oath keepers, yes, the oath keepers militia group, who participated in the capitol insurrection, is running for the office there. in michigan, the first election denier to officially receive a party endorsement, republicans overwhelmingly backed kristina karamo, who has repeatedly spread lies about election fraud and far-right conspiracies. again, all of them have already been endorsed and chosen by trump and his team in his effort to get who and what he wants from the individuals who oversee our elections at the state and local levels, loyalty that can do a lot more damage this time around, next time. joining us onset to announce this new effort, against those efforts, amy mcgrath, former kentucky senate candidate, a retired u.s. marine corps lieutenant colonel. rick stengel, still here. tell me about the effort and then tell me how it's going to work. >> well, look, we have a clear

and present danger to our country right now. in donald trump trying to subvert our very elections system, and it's something that we're not paying enough attention to, and it is happening right now. it's happening in states like arizona, michigan, minnesota. >> georgia. >> nevada. georgia. all over. and what he is trying to do is to help support and then get elected these election deniers who are trump loyalists who are basically going to do his bidding in 2024. okay? and if you look back at 2020, and the elections there, you know, he was thwarted in his attempt to overturn the election by people in these key positions of secretaries of state who were people of integrity. >> democrats and republicans, right? >> exactly. it's nonpartisan. people of integrity who just -- their job is to count the votes.

their job is to certify the election. and he has said, this is the weakest link, this is the path to the white house. if i can replace these people of integrity with people who will do my bidding, with these election deniers, then i can get there. that's his path. okay? and it's happening -- it's not just a theory. >> it's happening. >> as we saw, last weekend, in michigan, 70% of the convention, the gop convention in michigan, supported this one candidate who is an election denier, qanon conspiracy theorist, i mean, this is happening. and right now, there needs to be an effort, a coordinated effort, to push back on that. if you love this country, you love our democracy, you're going to stand up for our democracy, as i have in uniform, as those of us who have served, we've got to do something, and that's what this project is about. it's called the american s.o.s. project, and it's about fighting back and making sure we do not

have these election deniers in these key positions. >> we bang the table every day and say, when is someone going to do something? you're doing something. tell me who's involved in the effort. tell me how you support people of integrity, and you're right. i mean, these are not -- when he -- it's so funny. everything is opposite. so when he calls it the weakest link, they're the strongest link, right, the people of integrity, democrats and republicans, who simply didn't cheat. >> right. >> that's what they did. how are you going to find the candidates? >> the candidates are already out there and our job is to make sure that the election denier candidates do not win. these are very important races. a lot of them are happening in battleground states. they're going to be contested races. and quite frankly, the reason why this effort is so important is often these races are overlooked. in the past, we've been privileged here in america to have people of integrity in some of these key election positions, just count the votes properly. but now, we're in an age, in the age of trump, where we have to -- patriots who love this

country have to make sure that these election deniers do not get into these offices, and really, it's a grassroots effort around the country to stand up. we got to do this. it's nonpartisan. >> they were, in their own words, the targets of threats of violence. is it harder to recruit people for these jobs? >> i think it is. but there are enough people who have stood up and said, you know, i'm going to run, and i'm going to count the votes properly. unfortunately, in all these states that we just talked about, the front runners, at least on the republican side, are all election deniers, and this is the problem. so we have to fight back. we have to come together. and support this effort because you know, it is our democracy. >> and your role is to coordinate the national effort but to drop resources and -- >> absolutely. we're going to run a campaign in these states where there's an election denier. we're going to be watching each state very closely, and to make sure that we educate the voters in those states.

again, these are not races that are normally -- that we normally spend a lot of resources on. but boy, we have to. here's why. we don't want to be, in 2023, 2024, looking back and saying, wow, we've got five battleground states where the secretaries of state, in those states, are all trump supporters and election deniers. we don't want to be in that position. if we're in that position in 2024, it's too late. there are 27 states up for re-election for this particular job, this year, so we have to put the effort in this year. it's a six-month sprint right now and honestly, i didn't think i would have to do something like this. you know what changed my mind? when i started to really worry about this was when i listened to the tapes. that president trump made when he called secretary of state raffensperger. >> it's incredible. >> if you had never listened to

your tape. >> it's incredible. 90 minutes. it's incredible. >> take a moment. it's a long tape, but take that moment of that one or two minutes to listen to donald trump berating the secretary of state. >> and what he's asking him to do. >> just find 11,000 -- >> find me 11,780 votes and just do it. not only that, but threatening him with criminal prosecution. that's something where, you know, the bells should be going off in any american's mind right there. and that's when i was like, okay, this is a theory. this could happen. now we're seeing it being executed. and again, this is what the republicans, what the trump -- what donald trump is trying to do to get back into office. he knows he can't get elected legitimately in the united states. so, he has to build the plot here to make sure that he can get in through these means. >> is it illegal, what he does on that call? >> i think it is. i mean, i would hope it is.

if you listen to the tape, it's outrageous. >> it's unbelievable. >> i mean, for me, i never thought in my lifetime that i would be listening to an american president trying to rig an election like that. trying to find the votes. >> after the fact. i mean, he's -- you know, i listened to -- i don't get -- our viewers have had enough and they're steeped in every twist and turn of the trump story, but i listened to that tape. that was the sunday before the insurrection and i came on the air monday, and i said i know it's long, but you have to listen to the whole thing. and now that we talked to the 1/6 committee and we have super opaque to us what, if anything, doj is doing, you listen to the tape, he's clearly asking a georgia official to go change a thrice counted -- once city counciled, once recounted and a second audit result in the state. it's amazing there have been no consequences for that call. amazing, rick. >> so he knows this was the weak link in his plot in 2020 and he knows if he can change that and just have people that will do his bidding next time, that when

it's a close race, he's just going to call up his buddy and they're going to throw the election to the legislature, by and large republican-controlled legislatures in these states, or they could have endless investigations, decertify the vote and then what happens when you have a republican potentially house of representatives? >> you throw it into chaos. >> this is a problem and this could throw our democracy completely up in the air. >> rick, how important do you put these secretary of state races? >> super important. i mean, i applaud what you're doing. people don't pay attention to them. in fact, i mean, as steve bannon has been telling people, you have to run for all of these lower level electoral offices, not just secretary of state. ladders up to secretary of state. it's not just who votes but who counts the vote and trump wants to make sure his own people count the vote and it's the beginning of authoritarianism where the loyalty is to the person, not the system. as you said, traditionally, these were nonpartisan people

who were loyal to the system so i think this is so important but all those other smaller races are important too. >> that's right. >> it's interesting. if he thought he could win, he wouldn't need them. so it is, like, if you really back up, it is a sign of incredible weakness. please keep us posted in terms of how it all goes. >> i appreciate it. americansos.org. >> you're sticking around. and rick, you're stuck for the whole hour. we'll have a live report from kyiv where two large explosions were heard in the city center. ions were heard in e ions were heard in e city center. ♪ ♪ we believe there's an innovator in all of us. ♪ ♪ that's why we build technology that makes it possible for every business... and every person... to come to the table and do more incredible things.

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what i feel, i imagine my family in one of those houses. that is now destroyed, and black. the war is an absurdity in the 21st century. the war is evil. and when we see these situations, our hearts, of course, stay with the victims, our condolences to their families, but our emotions are, there is no way a war can be acceptable in the 21st century. >> the war is evil. that was u.n. secretary general antonio guterres today in kyiv speaking firsthand about the horrors he has seen while on the ground touring the capital city. after his meeting with ukrainian

president zelenskyy, two explosions were heard in kyiv as the russian attacks continue. all this comes as prosecutors today announced the very first criminal charges for those war crimes and that investigation into the atrocities in bucha. ten russians have been charged for their actions during the occupation in the kyiv suburb. let's bring in nbc news correspondent cal perry on the ground in kyiv. cal, i know you've got reporting on all these fronts, so just take us through all of it. start with the explosions and then just take us through your reporting today. >> reporter: okay, so, first on the explosions, about three and a half hours ago, not far from our location here, so, in central kyiv, a building, residential building, hit, at least ten people wounded in that strike. the president of ukraine saying at least five cruise missiles were fired at the capital. not clear if some of them were knocked down by air defense. that doesn't really matter. things knocked down by air defense still hit the ground and cause casualties.

erin mclaughlin making it to the scene and reporting one of those residential buildings was damaged. we were under an embargo for about three hours where we don't show the scene. it was a residential area. i explain that as a way of explaining to the viewers that the ukrainian government does not want to give away these locations because they don't want the russians to hit there again. we were on the ground in bucha as well. we can show some of this video of this main morgue in bucha. this is where death is counted from this war. we spent most of the morning there. it's an international effort. these are two american volunteers you see on your screen now. at least 400 civilians were massacred, according to the united nations in bucha. there, of course, is an investigation under way. you see there some of the french forensic experts who are trying to identify these bodies. it's an impossible scene in many ways. this video was shot by our photojournalist. you're seeing videos of families

waiting for sometimes weeks to identify their loved ones. there was a scene that we witnessed of a woman who identified her loved one who had been decapitated. she was only able to do so by looking at a sock. for the volunteers, it is an everyday impossible job. take a listen to what one of the american volunteers told us. >> it's unlike anything i've ever experienced. it's probably the hardest thing i've ever had to do, not just with transporting and moving the bodies but just to see the family members in pain. it rips my heart out. i just -- it's almost -- it's just hard. it's hard. very hard. >> reporter: sometimes i think we talk in a sanitized manner about this war, but when you look at this woman, this is the woman who identified her husband based on a sock, you get a better picture of what it is the ukrainian government is weighing when they look at these battlefield gains, when they look at continuing this war,

when they look at rushing weapons to the front and then the human cost. we witnessed a child coming to the site today. there he is. with his mom. looking for his father. and of course, the person he needed most was in one of those coolers and this is playing out across the country, nicole. this is the end of the line of war, and it is truly horrific. >> the horrors are rewarded. the unit that was charged today, all ten of those soldiers, were awarded by vladimir putin himself. one of them was promoted to colonel. how does that affect these victims, and how does that manifest in the proficiency and the determination on the battlefield? one doesn't erase the other. one doesn't avenge the other. these people are gone forever, but how does that ripple? >> i think it creates a momentum

that you then can't stop. so, you know, i think about that child looking for his father, and he'll find his father, probably, in one of those, again, one of those mortuary coolers. so, it perpetuates war. because how do you stop fighting on the eastern front when this is playing out in the towns that you're from, if you are fighting on the eastern front? these explosions across the border in russia looks like, you know, a new front to this war, even the threats that vladimir putin made against the capital, which came true today. he did strike the capital. you talk to people here, look, our local producer who came with us to the morgue, i said, what do you want the world to know? i ask everybody that question. she said, send us more weapons. she cursed when she said it. send us more weapons. the kneejerk reaction to burying loved ones is, let's go kill the people who did this. and again, when you travel to bucha and the secretary general would have seen this today, the city has been destroyed. everywhere you go is destruction. people are still buried in

gardens. you still have family members going to these morgues with just a piece of information. i heard my husband was killed on this road and that he was mutilated in this way, and you have french doctors trying to match that up. when that's going on, it's impossible to have the conversation, i think, in many ways, about how do you stop this war, nicole. >> well, you have that conversation, and you don't sanitize anything and i'm so, so grateful to you. cal perry, your reporting's in a league of its own. thank you so much. stay safe, my friend. how do you hear that? i mean, this isn't -- can't be sanitized for you either. >> i mean, vladimir putin is evil. and we have to call it out. we have to -- i give credit to the biden administration for their handling of this. i am just so thankful that we have a president who has surrounded himself with competent individuals in the cabinet to be able to care about

our alliances, our partners, and to push back on vladimir putin and do whatever we can, use as many means, as many elements of national power, you know, that we can do right now. certainly, in giving the ukrainians military aid, but also in helping with intelligence, in helping squeeze the russian oligarchs, using our department of treasury and commerce and these other elements of power that we have, and i'm just really thankful we have an administration that knows how to do that. >> that can call putin evil. should putin be designated as a state sponsor of terror? >> i think he should. although you know, i defer to the diplomats on this -- >> he's already there. he said so last week. >> i say that because i know that that creates problems with trying to get somebody to the table to come up with a solution. >> settlement. >> a settlement. i mean, we want to be -- we want this thing to stop. so, you know, that's why we need to have diplomats that know what

they're doing. >> you're already there, right? >> i'm already there. compared to the other countries that are already designated state sponsors of terror, syria, cuba, libya, iran, i mean, they're small potatoes compared to what putin is doing. i heard mike mcfaul say earlier, which i agree with, the word "war" is a euphemism for what vladimir putin is doing. it's an atrocity. it's an obscenity. it's beyond any rules of law, which is why they are a state sponsors of terrorism and by the way, the secretary general, fine to express all those sentiments, but the u.n. has to do something. the u.n. has been passive here, so it's like -- >> russia has a seat on the security council. >> expel them. >> i'm with you. >> i'm just happy we have nato. >> we want to bring our friend, pentagon press secretary john kirby, into all this on today's announcement by president biden. we'll let him talk to us, explain how it's going to help

ukraine. that's next. explain how it's going to help ukraine. that's next.

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president joe biden today asked for $33 billion in aid for military and humanitarian assistance for the ukrainian war effort, as well as increase sanction powers that will allow officials to liquidate the assets of russian oligarchs. joining our conversation,

pentagon protection john kirby. we were talking about whether or not to designate russia's state sponsored terror. i know that debate is playing out behind closed doors. is there anything you can say about that? >> that's the purview of the state department. we want to respect their right to do that. i think they're having the appropriate discussions about. that what we're focused on, and as you just led into, we're really focused on making sure ukraine can better defend itself. we just got back from germany. secretary austin hosted 40-some odd nations from all around the world, not just europe, on that task. >> $33 billion to ukraine. tell us about this aid package. just in size. and i know for americans, sometimes these numbers are too big to process. that is a lot of money. tell us how that flows and when that flows. >> it is a lot, and i think it's a very clear commitment that you can see from president biden, from the administration, about

how seriously we take our support to ukraine, and it's not just military security assistance. now there's $16 billion dedicated to that. security austin spoke to that today. there's $8.5 billion of effect assistance, another $3 billion for humanitarian assistance to help all the people flung into refuge inside and outside ukraine. there's an awful lot here, a lot of goodness, and we hope congress will approve this speedily so we can get it on its way. here at the pentagon, the security assistance it will help provide us, it will give us flexibility to contract and buy material we can send into ukraine as well as draw down from our own stocks, stuff we have on the shelves. so we're eager to get start on the this. >> what can you tell us about the two blasts in the capital city of kyiv today? do you have any reports on that? >> we've seen reporting here at the pentagon on those two strikes. we don't exactly know what was hit, and we're not sure at this

early stage what it was hit with, but kyiv has not been immune to air strikes and missile strikes, even since the russians were treated out of kyiv. we have seen strikes in the past. difficult to know exactly what they're hitting. in the recent days and weeks we've seen them strike predominantly military targets, places they believe the ukrainians are storing weapons and ammunition. so again, not sure what was hit, but we'll monitor as best we can. >> how did you at the pentagon receive news of the five strikes on the day after secretaries blinken and austin were in the country? was it coincidence? >> i think the general feeling was this was of a piece of their efforts to increase pressure on the ukrainians' ability to rearm themselves, resupply themselves.

we don't have perfect b.d.a., battle damage assessment, but it looks like they were hitting -- of the ukrainians themselves. that was a first assessment. haven't seen anything that would cause us to change our minds on that. >> we talked right after the horrors of bucha were made known to the world. today the first war crimes were charged against russian soldiers the, same ten vladimir putin elevated. what do you make, what is america to make of the criminals charged with war crimes being rewarded by vice president? >> i think rick stengle said it best before the break. this is a representation of the atrocities, the brutality with which the russians are persecuting this war, this conflict inside ukraine.

sadly, nicole, i wish we could say it's not going to expand beyond these ten, but i have a feeling it will. the situation in bucha is sadly not by exception here. and i think we're going to find more and more atrocities, more criminal behavior by russian forces moving forward. it's a piece of the way mr. putin continues to wage this completely unprovoked war. >> secretary austin said that the aim of the -- not just america, but our allies' efforts in ukraine, is to weaken russia's military. how do we move toward that goal, and how far away frit are we? >> well, look, i think he's already been weakened. he has suffered significant casualty to his ground forces. he has suffered significant losses to armor, aircraft, missile defense systems of his own. his military is absolutely weaker now than it was 63 days ago. and what the secretary was

talking about is a longstanding administration policy here since the beginning of this war that we don't want to see russia able to do this again in the future, and that is why the economic sanctions and the export controls are also having an impact on his ability to wage war. we know for instance, some of the components he needs for precision guyed munitions, he's having trouble getting because of the export controls and sanctions. so we are already having an effect on his ability to not get stronger militarily because of this. there has to be consequences for what mr. putin is doing. this can't be cost free. now, it hasn't been, but it's really up to the rest of the world, not just the west, not just nato, to make sure that the real -- that there's real implications, real effects, real consequences for mr. putin going forward. >> hang on, press secretary john kirby, who fields questions from all sorts of people. we're grateful to be among them. thank you for answering our

questions today. thank you both so much for being with us on set. feels like old times having people at the table. thank you so much. we're so grateful. quick break for us. we'll be right back. grateful. quick break for us we'll be right back.

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go to stamps.com/try and never go to the post office again and to all of you, thank you so much for letting us into your homes this thursday. we're so grateful. "the beat with ari mel we are" starts right now. >> the january 6th committee is holding at least eight public hearings this summer in june, beginning on the 9th. one member of that top committee says the hearings will, quote, blow the roof off of the house. the chairman tells nbc news they'll be reaching out to republican senators for meetings soon. that brings us to a special guest coming up shortly, congressman adam schiff is live here in this segment, as we say on the news. he'll be joining me live. we're going to get into it. that's in a couple moments. what's going