happening in ukraine, i think it was a really important moment, to see the first correspondents dinner in several year, because of the pandemic, for people to get together and honor what journalists are doing. as you said, first amendment rights which is something we're not seeing in the war and happening in russia right now. i was very grateful, you know, to be part of the u.s. press and the american press and be able to defend the first amendment right. >> yeah, that message was nicely underscored at the dinner. alayna treene, thank you being with us. thank you to all of you for getting up "way too early" on this monday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. >> jd is the conservative outsider. jd vance. >> i'm jd vance. >> i'm jd vance. >> i support jd vance. >> jd vance is different. jd is strong on borders. >> donald trump has officially endorsed senate candidate jd vance. >> we've endorsed jp, right?

jd mandel. he is doing great. [ laughter ] >> oh, my god. you know, you know, if the current occupant at 1600 pennsylvania avenue had done that, there would be headlines for, like, months. >> about his age. >> oh, he can't remember. which, of course, underlines the fact, how funny it is. you have people, right-wing trumpists attacking joe biden for his mental acuity. right before donald trump couldn't remember who even endorsed, he -- this is when he was going through his cognitive test. >> right. >> i aced my cognitive test. this is a water puff low. buffalo. this is a ladder. do we have jonathan lemire here? he is our cognitive test specialist. jonathan, what were the six or seven words he could remember?

>> it was man, woman, camera, light, and then one more. it was all very -- water buffalo, you had that one right. >> water buffalo. >> water buffalo is essential. actually a cheat code for anyone about to take a cognitive test, water buffalo, always one of the words. but this from the former president was a remarkable performance, perhaps fusing together these republican candidates. maybe he thinks it'll be the best chance in ohio. >> maybe so. i've just been told by alex, it was person, camera, tv. fortunately, vance, jd vance, wasn't listed in there. seriously, the guy -- like, what planet is he on? good morning, my friends. i'll tell you what planet we're on. we're on planet mika because it is may the 2nd. it is, of course, the happiest day of the year. it is mika's birthday.

>> yay. i'm 55. thank you. >> arrive and live. >> it is the speed limit. >> exactly. >> oh, my god. >> you know, it is very interesting -- >> that's a lot. >> mika had asked me, she said -- i'd asked her, what would you like me to give you for your birthday? you know, like a princess in the new testament, she didn't say "bring me the head of john the baptist." >> no. >> she said, "bring me the head of richard haass and jonathan lemire." >> okay, well -- >> i said, "well, i can't do that. this is not going to be a new testament thing about" -- >> this is weird. we have a lot of news to cover. >> you know, john the baptist, if only he could have been on "morning joe." you can, so you were safe. i'll tell you, though, who was not safe. anybody that was at the

correspondents' dinner the other night. richard haass, you have the black hole of kolkata, and then you have the 2022 washington correspondents dinner. have you ever seen such a superspreader event in all your life? it seriously looked so dangerous for a community of people that have been telling everybody to stay locked in their caves for two years. >> tuesday will be an interesting day. probably by tomorrow, we'll see if there is space, shall we say. the subways are empty. buses are empty. no traffic in washington. we'll just check it out. >> yeah, we will. we will check it out. there you see joe biden and the first lady, dr. jill biden. and president biden, actually, he told a question jokes at the correspondent dinner. by the way, he didn't forget his name or the name of people that he was endorsing.

here's joe biden. >> it's the first time president attended this dinner in six years. [ applause ] >> understandable. we had a horrible plague followed by two years of covid. everyone had to prove they were fully vaccinated and boosted. so if you're at home watching this and wondering how to do that, just contact your favorite fox news reporter. they're all here, vaccinated and boosted. all of them. i'm not really here to roast the gop. that's not my style. besides, there is nothing i can say about the gop that kevin mccarthy hasn't already put on tape. republicans seem to support one fella, some guy named brandon. he is having a really good year, and i'm kind of happy for him.

>> i thought he was good. >> fun. >> he was speaking there, of course, of steve, who donald trump, the guy -- all his cognitive capabilities right there -- talked about steve, the next speaker of the house. also, trevor noah, i thought trevor noah actually -- i thought he was -- i thought he was pitch perfect. one of the better comedians to host the event. he didn't go too heavy on anybody. told the jokes. there were a few tough jokes in there. more importantly, he paid tribute to a free press, which, of course, is something we didn't see over the past five years. here is trevor noah telling a few jokes at the correspondents' dinner. >> it is my great honor to be speaking tonight at the nation's most distinguished superspreader event. no, for real, people, what are we doing here? let's be honest, what are we doing? did none of you learn anything from the gridiron dinner? nothing, huh? like, do you read any of your own newspapers?

i mean, i expect this from sean hannity, but the rest of you, what are you doing here? you spent the last two years telling everyone the importance of wearing masks and avoiding large, indoor gatherings. the second someone offers you a free dinner, you all turn into joe rogan, huh? i mean, dr. fauci dropped out. that should have been a pretty big sign. fauci thought it was too dangerous to come tonight. pete davidson thinks it's okay. and we all live with pete, okay. >> well, exactly. if pete davidson says it is okay, then i guess it's okay. >> look at that room. >> packed. they were packed in there. you know, like richard haass said, we'll see what happens on tuesday, wednesday. anyway, so happy birthday, mika. >> thank you. can we do the news now for my birthday? >> is that what you'd like to do for your birthday? >> absolutely. >> by the way, trevor noah told a joke about us. >> he did. >> it was funny.

>> time for you to stop talking. >> okay. nancy pelosi visited ukraine, becoming the highest ranking u.s. official to do so since russia invaded more than two months ago. leading a congressional delegation, pelosi met with ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy in kyiv on saturday, to reaffirm washington's support for ukraine against russia. >> we believe that we are visiting you to say thank you for your fight for freedom, that your fight is a fight for everyone. and so our commitment is to be there for you until the fight is done. >> after departing for neighboring poland, pelosi discussed her meeting with ukraine's president and the united states response to russia's aggression. >> do not be bullied by bullies. if they're making threats, you

cannot back down. that's my view of it. we're there for the fight. you cannot fold to a bully. our conversation with president zelenskyy is no surprise, not only his courage and his leadership, but his detailed knowledge of every subject we brought up. >> zelenskyy also had praise for the house speaker and awarded her a civil honor during their meeting. the medal is given to women who have made outstanding contributions to the ukrainian state, and was meant to highlight pelosi's quote, significant personal contribution to strengthening america's ties with kyiv. >> richard haass, we have seen a dramatic evolution of america's policy toward this war, toward ukraine, toward russia over the past few weeks. i know it's made you uncomfortable at times, still

looking for an off-ramp, a way to avoid possible world war iii. make no mistake, make no mistake, after secretary austin talked about being in it to win it, nancy pelosi went over and said the same thing, we are there to help ukraine win this war. what are the ramifications of official washington taking this position now? >> well, the good news, joe, is the united states is clearly there. we saw that with the $33 billion package proposed by the president late last week. we are there for the long haul. most of the package, the lion's share, is for all sorts of our weaponry, quantity and quality. also to help the economy of ukraine, which is obviously suffering. to help the humanitarian side. i think that's all good. but when the speaker goes there and says, "we're with you until the fight is done," i just wish one person speaking for this government, whether it's the president or the national security adviser, secretary of state, will say what they mean

by "until the fight is done." is it like february, or eight years ago, where the united states is supplying weapons to liberate crimea and eastern and southern ukraine? honestly, we have interests that obviously include the ukraine, but also we have a larger relationship with russia. we have a larger set of interests in the world. i think we need to have a serious conversation about, again, where we're going here. >> yeah. jonathan lemire, the white house was very careful at the beginning of this war, and rightly so, because of all the nuclear threats, the threats of world war iii that vladimir putin was putting forward. state-sponsored television, his talking heads on state-sponsored television were parroting every night. we heard diplomats talking about the possibility of world war iii. lavrov and putin have done it again this past week. but any suggestion that we are going to take an arm's length

approach to this battle, well, that's long gone. it was long gone with austin, and nancy pelosi yesterday, and, of course, the $33 billion aid package we're sending that way. it seems to me the calculation has been made in washington, d.c., that, subtlety is a loser's game. if you're a public figure in washington, d.c., you say you're in it to win it. do not pull back from that at all. >> yeah, that is right. the rhetoric has certainly changed here. i talked to a number of administration officials the last few days in washington, and they all are coming to that consensus, as well. they feel like this is a moment where, you know -- and there are still concerns about escalation. there are concerns putin could play the chemical or nuclear weapons card, though they've seen not signs of that at this point. but there is a mission here to make sure that putin is not able to do something like this again.

that was the message from sec secretary of defense austin a few days ago. they also feel this war is, indeed, settling into what will be a protracted phase. the war of attrition is a phrase i heard from u.s. officials the last few days. they think these sides are going to be shooting at each other in the donbas, the eastern region, for months and months if not longer. u.s. officials are encouraged. they think at this point, the ukrainian army is just about as well armed as the russians. they think they'll be able to stand their ground there. the russians, of course, will have the advantage in sheer manpower if putin floods the zone with conscripts. we've seen how poorly that's done. the morale is bad for russian forces. training is bad for russian forces. it'd be a meat grinder from putin's perspective if that were to happen. as another piece of evidence as to how poorly this russian assault has done, putin's right-hand man, a russian general to the front over the

weekend, narrowly escaped an attack there. some reports, he may have been injured. the u.s. does feel like this is a moment where they have been flooding the zone with weapons and equipments to keep the russians at bay. to richard's point, what will this look like at war's end? >> richard, i've been hearing things since the beginning of this war. i've been skeptical, first of all, of kyiv. oh, it'll overwhelming them. the first couple weeks in, they were having logistical problems. more importantly, they have cultural problems. again, you can move troos wherever you want to move troops. if your culture is rotted at its core, it doesn't matter where you move the troops. it doesn't matter what the mass of your troops are. suddenly, quantity does not have a quality all of its own.

so this leads to a couple of questions. first of all, how long can vladimir putin afford to keep firing missiles, keep firing long-range artillery, keep firing munitions into ukraine? it's not like this isn't costing him money he doesn't have. secondly, richard, and, again, this is where it requires a bit of subtlety of thought that you aren't hearing. i know it is disturbing you. but i said when they moved from kyiv to the donbas region that there was no guarantee that they were going to be able to sweep through there. in fact, that could be one more humiliation for vladimir putin. let me say it now, maybe he takes over the donbas. i think it is far more likely if you look at the last eight weeks, it's far more likely that he will soon be humiliated there, as well. so the question diplomatically is, what do you do when you have

nothing left to give vladimir putin a pull-back from world war iii? >> couple points. your basic theme is right. what people call the order of battle. add up the tanks, aircraft, and it doesn't tell you a lot about the leadership or morale of troops. the beginning of the war, russians were divided. they thought they didn't have the mass force. they learned it was wrong. i think they'll be somewhat better in this phase, but i don't deny what you suggestion. the russians will once again do badly. this could, as jonathan described it, bog down as a war of attrition. i think that is more likely than peace. what i don't see is any scenario where you have the setting for a formal negotiation and a diplomatic outcome that is acceptable to the two sides. the most that ukraine would ever, ever agree to sign off on is not going to be enough for

vladimir putin. the atrocities have hardened the calculations of ukraine. putin has invested too much. i simply don't see this ever settling down under this leadership with an agreement. what i think is possible is it winds down, almost like it was in the donbas for the last eight years. a low-level war. let me say one other thing about what defense secretary austin said. this idea that our goal is to weaken russian troops. they are being weakened. that's a different issue. i think that's, you know, all things being equal, a good thing. but to set that out as a goal, europe hasn't signed on for that. one of the really interesting things of this struggle so far is nato has really come together on the defense of ukraine. nato and the germans, in particular, have not signed off on a long-term strategy of essentially weakening russia in a significant way. the administration needs to be very careful. that's a potential division. i'm not sure that is sustainable in terms of keeping nato on the

same page here. >> mika, let's just be very clear right now. in these calculations that everybody is making in washington, d.c., people have to understand, regardless of what politicians say, either on a campaign trail or what they say on the floors of the house or the senate, vladimir putin is not going to surrender. >> no. >> there is not going to be a "uss missouri" moment where he is on the deck with, you know, the 21st centuries mcarthur and say, "okay, you got me. you win." regime change will come from within russia. we're not going to do that. we're not going to go into russia. so, again, there are a lot of considerations that are not just military considerations. they're diplomatic considerations that we have to constantly be moving through, again, on how we bring this to an end. >> yeah.

meanwhile, let's go to mariupol, the long-awaited evacuation of that besieged steel plant in mariupol is under way. according to president zelenskyy, more than 100 civilians, mostly women and children, were evacuated yesterday and were being taken to ukrainian-controlled territory. this video of the evacuation has not been verified by nbc news. zelenskyy said many more are expected to be moved to safety today. as you can see, it is precarious for these people. the evacuations, which are being carried out by the international red cross and the u.n., along with ukrainian and russian officials, comes after weeks of attempts and negotiations. in a new video, the deputy commander of ukraine's far right group welcomed the evacuations but said that he hoped the soldiers who are still inside would also be safely removed from the sprawling plant.

his appeal comes just a day after the ap released video of wives of two azov commanders, whose hundreds remain inside, and called for evacuations to include soldiers. they fear the troops will be tortured and killed if captured by russian forces. take a listen. >> i wanted to say that the lives of soldiers matter, too. we can't talk only about civils. we are hoping that we can rescue the soldiers, too. not only dead, not only injured, but all of them. >> yeah, i just don't think that is going to be a possibility, especially when we saw one of the ukrainian fighters say russian bombing of the plant resumed after the evacuation was

completed. far more likely that after all this time, far more likely the civilians will continue to be evacuated but, actually, those soldiers are not going to be evacuated. the russians won't allow them to be evacuated so they can go back -- >> i'm surprised the civilians are getting out. >> -- and join other forces and continue the fighting against the russians. i suspect that won't happen. but for more insights on that and everything else, let's bring in retired u.s. army general steph twitty. he served multiple tours in iraq and afghanistan. prior to his retirement in 2020, he was the deputy commander of the european command. general, thank you for being with us today. let's begin with the conversation richard haass and i were having earlier, what is going on in the donbas region. do you have any reason to believe that a russian army that is so horrific with logistics, and whose culture, it seems the

culture of the armed forces is rotten to the core, do you have any reason to believe they're going to be able to start rolling up victories in the east, in the donbas region. >> no, i do not. joe, first of all, let me just tell you, you're talking about kyiv earlier. i think the optimism changed from the west when all the west saw that kyiv wasn't going to fall. you had ukrainian forces doing a pretty good job protecting kyiv. that's when we started to see this turn in the west with optimism. that continues to this day. what i will tell you down in the donbas, what we're seeing is the russians are still plagued with the issues that were up in kyiv. they continue to have problems, morale problems. they continue to have leadership problems. on the ukrainian side, you can't

underestimate the will to fight. you know, the ukrainians are fighting for their survival and their democratic way of life. that is motivation in itself to take this fight to the russians and break their backs. what i will tell you is this is going to be a protracted war. in the donbas, if you notice over the last couple of days. you wake up one day and russians seized a city. the next day, the ukrainians took it back. that'll be the war of attrition you continue to hear. that'll be the soldiers fighting back and forth that's going to make this war a protracted war. i know we're putting various equipment into ukraine to make this an even playing field, but i think we're going to find that the war is going to continue for months and maybe years to come, based on my assessment.

>> general, richard haass. could you drill down on the phrase what war of attrition means? are there larger battles? is it skirmish after skirmish, engagements? what does this look like? >> number one, you have to remember that the russians have not had a strategic victory during this war. when i say strategic victory, mariupol, it is a strategic objective because it is a major port. it is the fifth largest port out of the 15 that ukrainians have. kyiv, strategic objective, the house of power, where the house sits. odesa, that's where the region and port city and port complexes reside, on odesa. their route to getting to

crimea, strategic. none of those have occurred. so they have achieved tactical objectives. that means they've taken small towns, small cities. this bridge and that bridge to try to achieve a strategic objective. when it comes to protracted, that means that, based on what i'm seeing in the fighting right now, this give and take, back and forth, it started as even playing field right now. it is going to continue for a while unless there's some type of overwhelming combat power or strengthening of the russian forces to where they can overwhelm or encircle the ukrainians. they have not demonstrated that they can do that yet. therefore, this is going to be back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. >> general -- >> so that would be my point to you, richard. >> general, good morning. jonathan lemire. administration officials i spoke to the last couple days have looked at the state of play in

the donbas and said, to this point, it is largely long-range shelling, as both sides wait for the terrain to get better. it is muddy season. as well as they're replenishing and refueling ahead of what is expected to be this ground battle in the east. tell us a little about what that means. what does it mean to replenish and get your forces ready here for the combat to come? >> yeah, the most important thing in combat is making sure that you have an in-depth, detailed logistics plan to be able to sustain your fight. for the ukrainians and the russians, that's going to play key here. all this american equipment we're putting in ukraine right now, we have to make sure that we have the maintenance equipment to sustain it, the spare parts to sustain it. all that stuff has got to be pushed forward. also on the russian side, it's

got to be the same case. the russians have demonstrated that they can't logistically sustain themselves. the fuel depots being blown up, both on the russian side and, allegedly, the ukrainians have blown up some fuel depots inside russia, that is very key. because all this heavy equipment needs to be sustained by fuel. as we go through the days, the month, it is not so important of the combat that's going on. what is more important is that we have the logistics to sustain this combat for the long term. that's where the money is going to come from, that logistic sustainment. >> retired u.s. army general steph twitty, thank you very much for your assessment this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," millions have fled from ukraine, but russia is also seeing a mass exodus.

how the ongoing invasion is having a huge impact on moscow's tech industry. >> what a shock, they want to go to capitalistic free countries instead of working for a company under an autocrat in russia. i mean, again, another colossal miscalculation by vladimir putin. plus, a special grand jury will be seated today, as prosecutors in georgia investigate former president trump and his efforts to overturn georgia's 2020 election results. >> well, i mean, they don't have good evidence. they only have him telling the guy who counts the votes, "give me one more money." >> just find them. >> find those votes. i don't know. maybe that is pretty good evidence. >> might be. we'll get a live report from outside the fulton county courthouse this morning. beijing ramps up covid restrictions over the weekend but stops short of a full

lockdown. the new measures china is putting in place to try to avoid an outbreak. as we go to break, some images just in to us. house speaker nancy pelosi and a u.s. delegation is meeting with poland's leadership right now. the president of poland. it follows that high-level congressional visit to ukraine over the weekend. pelosi was greeted by u.s. ambassador to poland, my brother, mark brzezinski, as the american government reiterates its steadfast support to nato allies. >> they're meeting right now with president duda. we'll be right back. now with president duda. we'll be right back. (johnny cash) ♪ i've traveled every road in this here land! ♪

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i was a little confused about why me. i was told you get your highest approval ratings with a biracial african guy standing next to you. ever since you came into office, things are already looking up. gas is up. rent is up. food is up. everything. not to mention, no president in my memory has given more marginalized groups opportunities. talking about women, lgbtq community, the taliban, and the list goes on and on. >> trevor noah was so good. >> mika, it was also great, we had a president there who wasn't a little snowflake. >> no. >> who could actually handle somebody telling jokes about themselves and poking fun at the president and being confident enough, being man enough to, dare i say, be able to laugh and smile at the jokes, which donald trump never was.

and it was great to see that. it was -- you know, a lot of people voted for joe biden for a return to normalcy. the "wall street journal" editorial page writes about that today, which i want to talk about a little later. but we saw that. a president who not only could laugh at himself but could phrase -- praise a free press. praise a free press that attacks him and goes after him every day. something joe biden appreciated. something trump most definitely did not. >> in his closing remarks, trevor noah got a little serious about that, about what it means to be free. it means so many different things, but it includes freedom of speech, freedom of expression. he honed in on that. take a look. >> every single one of you, whether you like it or not, is a bastion of democracy. and if you ever begin to doubt

your responsibilities, if you ever begin to doubt how meaningful it is, look no further than what is happening in ukraine. look at what is happening there. journalists are risking and even losing their lives to show the world what's really happening. you realize how amazing it is. like, in america, you have the right to seek the truth and speak the truth, even if it makes people in power uncomfortable. even if it makes your viewers or your readers uncomfortable. you understand how amazing that is? i stood here tonight, and i made fun of the president of the united states, and i'm going to be fine. i'm going to be fine, right? [ laughter ] like, do you really understand what a blessing it is? maybe it's happened for so long, it might slip your mind. it is a blessing. in fact, ask yourself this question. [ applause ] honestly, ask yourself this question.

if russian journalists who are losing their livelihoods, as you were talking about, steve, and their freedom for daring to report on what their own government is doing, if they had the freedom to write any words, to show any stories, or to ask any questions, if they had, basically, what you have, would they be using it in the same way that you do? ask yourself that question every day. because you have one of the most important roles in the world. >> richard haass, it was a beautiful conclusion to that event. again, a spirit of celebration for speech, free speech, that we haven't seen for some time. of course, we still have problems. we have problems, you know, with book banning in elementary schools and middle and high schools. we have problems with speech

codes on -- and illiberalism on college campuses. even college deans, left of center, are starting to awaken to. there are challenges from both sides, but what we saw the other night was a return to normalcy. people could get together, disagree with each other, tell jokes about each other, and still celebrate how great this country is. celebrate freedom. celebrate freedom of speech, western democracy, in a way that just was not celebrated during the trump era. as the "wall street journal" said, editorial this morning, there is a reason why in a lot of places in wisconsin joe biden won by ten points over donald trump and outperformed donald trump by ten points. where republicans were winning local and congressional races because americans were

exhausted. i've got to say, anybody seeing that the other night would be like, okay, a return to normalcy and decency. >> yeah, normalcy is nice. it is reassurance. it's comforting. i felt what trevor noah said, joe, at the end was really interesting. it is a reminder that none of us should take for granted anything. when he was talking about freedom of the press, thomas jefferson looking down on that dinner would have liked it. the sense of just how central it is to the functioning of any democracy. it is what holds us all accountable. what you had there was someone reminding us of just how essential it is, and a president who was comfortable with the freedom of the press, even if, at times, it comes at his expense. that is what makes a democracy work. it is an acceptance of those rules. those are the norms, nd we have to accept it even when it is not always in our immediate self-interest. i thought that was a special

moment. >> yeah. of course, just for anybody watching, don't be confused, i'm not talking about the event itself. i am not a huge fan of that event. i'm not taking away from it. people who want to go with certainly go. i'm talking in general about how the president, how republicans, how democrats, how speakers, how trevor noah, how they spoke. you know, we talk about freedom of the press and the celebration of the press. very early on, jonathan lemire, as you know better than most, donald trump was talking about the media being enemies of the state. using that stalinistic term, calling the free press enemies of the state. it was an affront not to the press, it was an affront to western democracy. the freedom of speech. to the values that, actually, we see joe biden, republicans, and democrats holding up right now, and our allies, in this fight in ukraine.

>> under then president trump, it wasn't just the rhetoric about enemy of the people but also just that some reporters could be jailed for what they did. they were committing treason. and that's why the event saturday night was important. the administration wanted to have the president participate despite the covid risks. they did want to showcase a big event like this, if people test and are vaccinated, it could be held safely, let's hope. but also that it was an important message to send. that this president, this is a return to normalcy, a break from his predecessor and how he treated the first amendment and the press, but also to have a contrast from what we're seeing in russia. trevor noah opened his show by saying, look, if i was trying to make these jokes in moscow, i would be jailed. that's not going to happen here. for the president of the united states, he made that point, too, and said we are a free people. he was a good sport, the jokes at his expense. delivered some good zingers of his own. the message of why he wanted to be there was a celebration of democracy of the free press.

without question, the most moving moment of the night is they ran a montage of the about nearly a dozen journalists who have been killed during covering the war on ukraine so far, including some of our colleagues from fox news. they ran this montage. when it concluded, the first person out of his seat applauding was the president of the united states. applauding with real emotion in his face. you could see it. he seemed almost like he was fighting back tears. as he stood up and clapped loudly, the rest of the room stood up, too. that's why the administration wanted to be there saturday night. >> because the free press is so essential to american freedom. just like federal courts, which donald trump went after early, as well. by the way, if you think i'm overstating this, i mean, you're looking at somebody that donald trump accused of murder 12 times and was calling for my arrest. 12 times. >> had to get security. >> you ask why. you ask why? i was critical of his covid response. it was that simple. do you think that joe biden, or i'll say any republican who is

thinking of running for office right now, any republican in the senate right now, any republican in the house right now -- well, some republicans in the house would call for the arrest because they don't think a whole hell of a lot about western democracy either. but the key thing to recognize here is that what happened over the past four, five years, that was the exception, not the rule. what is critical in the coming years is we continue to work together as a nation, to make sure that that just remains a dark chapter in our history. i'm not talking about politics. i'm not talking about populism. i'm not talking about somebody's world view on taxes or spending or any of these other issues. i'm just talking about the respect for freedom. freedom of speech. freedom of the press. a reverence for western democracy. a lot of people are admitting on the trump right, they're not

fans of western style democracy. >> and that must be the exception and not the rule. it was the exception and not the rule, but it needs to continue to be the exception and not the rule. it can't continue. and we see signs of trouble in terms of some republicans still struggling to free themselves from the trip of trumpism. coming up, there are signs that president biden's approval rating is starting to recover. meanwhile, that same polling shows support for republicans might be slipping ahead of this year's midterms. we'll dive into all of that next. and we'll have a look at the headlines in this morning's papers, including an effort to take away some pandemic-related privileges for restaurants. we'll be right back. d privileges for restaurants we'll be right back. biden: we have a crisis: the price at the pump. our prices are rising because of putin's actions. we need to double down on our commitment to clean energy.

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so they gave me the test, and he'll tell you, i aced it. every question right. one person said, i've never seen anyone ace it before. i said, i aced it. it is a good thing. they're no longer calling me stupid. i lost one race, they say, trump was humiliated. that's what they're waiting for. they're waiting for one race. you know, we've endorsed dr. oz. we've endorsed jp, right? jd mandel. he's doing great. >> i think he meant jd vance, the guy who was against trump and now sucks up to him. >> i can want get over this whole -- i still can't get over the fact that he is so proud -- >> he can't remember his name. >> -- that he could say water buffalo, cow, cat, dog, person, leaping lizard. >> different than jd vance. >> jd vance is easy to remember.

again, imagine if joe biden made that slip-up. >> a guy who works a full day. >> trump t-vo'd, as he said, tv shows like ours and watching it every day. joe biden puts in a full day and works. >> it's great for vance's opponent. josh mandel. >> i don't know if you saw this or not, but joe biden's approval ratings ticked up a little bit in the "washington post"/abc poll. 42% compared to the low point of 37%. it's not great, 42%, but it is a hell of a lot better than 37%. he is underwater with disapproval at 52%. republicans, meanwhile, lost ground on the generic this is fascinating.

45% said they'd pick the candidate from the party on jewish lasers and qanon freaks. they'd pick from the party of stolen elections. like, chinese conspiracy theories, if the election were held that day. 42% would pick the democrat. well, maybe my old theory that crazy doesn't pay -- >> crazy doesn't win. >> -- maybe that theory is coming back into vogue. 45% chose the republican. 46% chose the democrat. republicans held a ten-point advantage, as well. listen to me. i can tell you, these numbers mean nothing. when i was campaigning, people showed me numbers. i said, "i don't care what they look like today. i only care about trend lines. show me what they looked like a month ago, six months ago."

guess what? republicans have lost ten points because they're crazy. because they've allowed crazy people to talk about jewish lasers. they've allowed crazy people to take over their primary process, accusing anybody that doesn't believe in them of being pedophiles. they have been repeating and parroting conspiracy theories, not just from qanon but from chinese religious cults. every day. that's what they've stood for. again, look at that number. look at the trend line. they've gone from being ten points ahead to being one point. i must say, jonathan lemire, in part, this crazy may be catching up because, in part, it is exhausting. one candidate after another.

like, jd mandel. take what jd mandel said before. what jd mandel, as donald trump calls him, is saying now. it is crazy. he is running around talking about stolen elections. he's the one who said, if you loved jesus, you wouldn't support donald trump in the past. this shift to democrats the past couple months, not surprising. also not surprising, it's from self-identified independents. this reminds me so much of the french election. a lot of voters said, you know what, i don't really like -- i don't really like macron, but, you know, he's arrogant and everything. le pen, she seems to understand my plight better, but she's too dangerous and crazy. i'll vote for macron.

i guarantee you people like mitch mcconnell, sane political operators are thinking, we have got to push these crazy nutjobs to the side. these people that are talking about orgies in republican meetings. these people that are talking, you know, and bringing loaded guns to the airport. >> so far, that's all one person. >> the same guy. >> people talking about qanon theories. that are talking about jewish space lasers. >> now you have some others, yeah. >> italians that are stealing elections. they're talking about pedophile rings. >> there you go. >> they're still saying, if you don't agree with us, you're a pedophile. people talking about burning books, who are talking about banning books. i could go on all day. >> just for the record, the orgies, the gun at the airport, the licensing, that's one guy. >> that's just one guy. >> one guy. >> as it says in the bible, already talked about john the baptist. in the bible, you know, that's

one guy, but they are legion. they are legion, especially in the house. jonathan lemire, independents saying, whoa nelly. what say you? >> jd mandel, whatever his name is, was one of trump's sharpest critics in 2016 and has come the other way and embraced some of the craziest parts of the former president's platform. all this is alarming, mainstream republicans. you mentioned mcconnell. he is far from alone. and heartening some democrats. the more these characters become center stage, marjorie taylor greene, boebert, it's good for democrats. i have a new story out this morning about how the white house is leaning into this. president biden, to this point, in term hasn't really gone on the offensive that much against republicans but is now doing so and really trying to draw a sharp contrast between what he and his party have done and republicans and, in particular,

fringe elements of the republican party. they feel that's their effective argument going into the midterms. they know they have faced economic headwinds. they know historical trends are against them. democrats feel this is the way they can show voters, particularly those independent vote e those swing voters, the suburban voters. those are the voters that gave biden the white house, along with african-american support back in 2020. they feel like those are the same voters who are going to be so turned off by this republican extremism, they might be able to stay with the democrats this fall. the other thing white house officials are cheering for, a number of them told me this over the weekend, if elon musk indeed takes twitter, they hope the first thing he does is put donald trump back on it. they think if trump starts tweeting again, it will remind these voters of the crazy from his time in office, particularly around january 6th. he'll amplify the fringe messages and fringe right-wing candidates, and that can only be

good for democrats, they think. >> bring him back. he is crazier than ever. this is today's "wall street journal," talking about the lunatics that have taken over the republican party in wisconsin. this is what the "wall street journal" says. it isn't hard to figure out what flipped wisconsin. many voters, republicans included, did not want four more years of mr. trump's antics. 10.5% of mr. biden's voters picked the gop for congress. this beats the evidence of vote fraud detected by everyone who has looked. everyone who has looked. mr. trump lost wisconsin in 2020 on his own. if republicans keep chasing ghosts, he will also lose them in 2022. so, again -- >> all right. >> -- mika, you look at the same poll. republicans do better than democrats by almost 20 points on

inflation. they do better than democrats on the economy. they do better than democrats on foreign policy. democrats don't know how to, like, play this game. yet, and yet, independents are going, republicans are too crazy. maybe i'll take a second welcome look at the democrats. coming up, reverend al is going to weigh in on joe biden's approval ratings. at the top of the hour, we'll have the latest on nancy pelosi's visit to kyiv. she is the highest u.s. official to go visit with the ukrainian president. also, some civilians escaping that steel plant in mariupol. we'll have the very latest when "morning joe" continues. we'll be right back. "morning joe" continues. "morning joe" continues. we'll be right back.ember, you can instantly start saving on your travels. so you can go and see all those, lovely, lemony, lemons.

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all of america waking up to a beautiful, beautiful morning, especially new york city. we look at mika's penthouse apartment, complete with the --

what is that on top of your penthouse apartment, mika? is that a -- >> i don't know. people are going to really think i live there. >> nobody thinks you live there. it says comcast. >> it is the top of the hour. >> anyway, it is mika's birthday today, everybody, may 2nd. >> i am 55. >> 55 and alive. >> i've been doing this show since i was 40, 15 years. 15. >> keeps getting harder, doesn't it, sweetie? >> yeah, well, jus -- welcome back to "morning joe." developing news from ukraine. civilians who have been trapped in the horrific steel plant, horrific conditions there, are finally being evacuated. >> thank god. >> now, the wives of the last defenders in the city are pleading for their husbands' lives, as well. plus, the second major u.s. visit to kyiv in a week. this time led by house speaker nancy pelosi. adding more weight to america's commitment to ukraine. now, we've learned the first lady is headed to the region, as

well. in a moment, we're going to bring in the "washington post" david ignatius and get a live report from ukraine. first, we were just talking about more evidence of joe's political mantra, that crazy never wins. >> it did, though. that was my operating theory. crazy did win. >> it has been winning a little. >> crazy has been winning a good bit in the republican party over the last several years. but, i don't know, i think the tide is turning. let's bring in the host of "politics nation" and president of the national action network, reverend al sharpton. rev, we were talking about how the republicans were up ten points in a generic ballot test some time ago. they're now down by one. i think that just -- it doesn't have to do with issues because most of americans are on the side of republicans when it comes to issues. i think it has the do with just crazy, absolute crazy. i say that just so people don't tweet at me, oh, what do you

mean? if you look at this poll, americans trust republicans more on inflation and the economy. americans trust republicans more on foreign policy. yet, their support keeping bleeding, especially from independents, because they have a lot of crazy people that they refuse to call out. rev, i want to look at joe biden's approval rating. it's gone up from 37% to 42%. that's kind of like, as we like to say around here, that's like being the tallest building. it's okay. it's not where he needs to be if he hadn't lost so much support from black voters. explain, why has joe biden lost 10, 15, 20 percentage points from black voters. january of '21, 87% approval rating among black adults. now, he has a 67% approval rating among black adults. and if you want to put that in

context, barack obama over eight years never went under 75%. if he were at 75%, his approval rating would likely be closer to 44%/45%. what's going on there? >> i think that what we must put in context is that the unusual, unusually high turnout among black voters, supportive black voters, in 2020 was in the height of the george floyd movement that all of us were part of. wanting to deal issues. wanting to deal with how we were disproportionately impacted by the pandemic. how it exposed the health deserts in our communities. all of that drove us to voting for joe biden and the democratic ticket. as well as the offensive nature of the trump presidency. now that we have gotten two years in and we did not get the

george floyd bill, largely because of two democrats, manchin and sinema. we didn't get the john lewis voting bill, largely because of the same two with the filibuster situation. and we don't have trump there, which is why if elon musk puts trump back on twitter, you'll start seeing a lot of black voters remembering what hostility we faced. i think that the messaging on what biden has done and the biden-harris team has done some things. i mean, you can't say that what they've done in terms of dealing with the impact of the pandemic in black communities and working with black health black churches and all has not been effective. it has. what they've done in terms of investment in several of our communities, in terms of what they've gotten through infrastructure has been good, and it has. other things, all the way to

ketanji brown jackson. but i think that they have not been able to message it well, and they have not gotten trusted messengers out there. so i think a combination of their not being the right messaging machines for what they have done, and not being realistic about the expectation of black voters is what has led to a decline. what is troubling about that is turnout. if you do not have an enthusiastic turnout in the black community, and, again, you've got to deal with police issues, you have to deal with voting issues, if you do not have the turnout, you will have a critical problem when it comes to what we see as the new congress and the new senate in the midterm elections. turnout is going to be key in the black community. >> reverend, we know democrats often have trouble turning out voters in midterms compared to the republican counterparts. let's zero in on voting rights. you and i had this conversation a lot. it became an existential thet to

the -- threat to the party. joe biden said it is the biggest threat since the civil war, the idea of taking away voting rights from voters, namely democrats and minorities, senior citizens, et cetera, in the states. we've seen the republicans do that backed by donald trump's big lie. democrats, though they talked big, don't have anything to show for it yet. that's, in part, because of the members of their own party. you and i talked about it, around the martin luther king holiday, that civil rights groups said, if they can't get something done, we'll stay home in november. is that what we're starting to see? >> organically. it doesn't require civil rights groups, though some of us have warned that. organically, people are saying, if we don't see something, if it is not executive orders, if it is not even more aggressive moves by the justice department, then what are we talking about? you said going back to the civil war, about the civil war. after the civil war, the big fight was whether we're going to let blacks vote. >> yup. >> we're going to let them be free, but are we really going to let them vote?

we are, what, a century later with the same argument? where you are aggressively seeing people doing what they can to limit our vote and to make the impediments that would make it more difficult for us to vote put in place, and there doesn't seem to be the aggressive portion on the other side, the executive orders and other things the justice department ought to be dramatically doing. >> reverend al sharpton, thank you so much. let's get to our headlines this morning. house speaker nancy pelosi visited ukraine over the weekend, becoming the highest ranking u.s. official to do so since russia invaded more than two months ago. leading a congressional delegation, pelosi met with ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy in kyiv on saturday. there they are on the streets of kyiv. to reaffirm washington's support for ukraine against russia.

>> we are visiting you to say thank you for your fight for freedom, that we are on an affront of freedom and your fight is for everyone. so our commitment is to be there for you until the fight is done. >> after she flew to poland, where she met right there with poland's president duda. had some meetings and dinners and really reaffirmed not just the united states' support for ukraine, but the united states partnership and shared challenges with poland. had some bilateral meetings there, meeting with the pols and the ambassador and, of course, her delegation. but the importance of the united states relationship with poland and their fight together to not only help the refugees but to stand tall against ukraine is as

reinvigorated as ever. >> columnist for the "washington post," david ignatius. also professor of history at new york youth, ruth. thank you for being with us. i was talking to richard haass earlier today and general twitty. we find ourselves in this difficult position, i think. i will say, perhaps i'm being a bit too optimistic for the ukrainians, but just as they get -- russians got ran out of the kyiv area, i suspect they're going to have trouble because of their logistical problems, because of their morale problems, because of a military culture that is rotted to the core, and making great progress in the donbas. we have the sec def talking about it we're in it to drain the russians. we're in it to win it.

nancy pelosi going over there saying we're in it to win it. this isn't going to end on the "uss missouri," david, so how in the hell do we bring this in for a landing with a guy who has nuclear weapons and reminds us of that every day? >> it's not going to end with a treaty signed on the "missouri" or anywhere else. it is going to end, presumably, in some kind of stalemate, a line of control across ukraine, a partition. then a lengthy and probably unproductive negotiation to get the russian forces out. we're now, joe, i think, in a period in which the russians, having learned from their mistakes in the north and the battle of kyiv, are being very careful about moving their forces forward too fast. this is, from everything i see, a battle of long-range fires, of artillery. the howitzers we're sending in responding.

back and forth, increasingly precise targeting because of the radars we're sending the ukrainians that can locate exactly where the fire is coming from. russians are not taking big chances moving forward. they don't want the logistical disasters that we saw a month, six weeks ago. so this will go on a long while, as people are saying, and it is not surprising. you're not seeing big shifts in terrain every day, as we did before. the question, i think, is whether the russians really have the firepower to attack along the southern coast. if they can take oodesa, if the can begin to move west and landlock ukraine, so it has no seacoast access, that will be a decisive change in the war. no sign yet that they can do that. >> right. >> one point, joe, that i would make on the pelosi visit. i thought it was great. i thought it was courageous of her and the delegation to go. the little film clip you show was the message. our commitment is to be here with you until this is done.

what i wish -- this is just a kind of little snapshot of our politics. i wish this had been a bipartisan delegation. i wish speaker pelosi had not just led democrats to go to kyiv but brought republicans with her. so her statement, we're with you no matter what, carries the resonance of the congress as a whole, not one party. because this is going to go on a long time. we're already seeing in the polling that i look at, significant divisions between republicans and democrats about how much they support ukraine in the war. what they feel about russia. so i think that's job one for biden and pelosi in the coming weeks. make this a real bipartisan commitment to support ukraine. absent that, as we get toward the midterm, i worry it'll become a political issue. our poor ukrainian friends will again to look at washington and just go, oh, my gosh.

are we really becoming a political football? >> yeah, you know, so many of the trips over have been bipartisan. >> yup. >> in fact, the overwhelming majority of them have been. they've been very positive. you've had republicans and democrats working together, being shoulder to shoulder there. i also noticed, david, you are right, in the clips that we saw out of there that it was an entirely democratic delegation. it is critical that we send a message, let me say, continue sending the message there is bipartisan support for the ukrainians, as we have shown up to this point. david, i'm curious. you spoke with the secretary of the air force about nuclear deterrents in the age of putin. obviously, this is something that we worried about. you talked to dr. brzezinski about a great deal, looking back over his time in the white house. that you talked to others about,

something we worried about from the late '40s to the early '50s until the soviet union collapsed and we're worried about it again. what is the plan for nuclear deterrence? >> this is the nightmare of the cold war years. this is something mika's dad, that generation lived with, the ever-present, real threat of nuclear war and having -- needing to have the arsenals to deter russian actions. what we're seeing is that the pentagon budget is reflecting more and more the need to modernize our nuclear forces. it's painful even to talk about this, the idea that we're getting ready to, again, have these weapons of ultimate destruction. parts of our deterrent forces have not been modernized since dr. brzezinski's days. goes back to the 1970s.

the minuteman 3 force that's in the ground, that part of the so-called triad. one of the things the secretary of the air force told me about is the modernization of that icbm missile force. there is a new missile called the sentinol they're bringing in. this is the age of electronic warfare and cyber, so you have to have modern systems you can depend on. they'll be doing that. have other new weapons coming in. a big bomber called the b-21. what is deterrence about in the end? when russia rattles its sabers and says, you know, we may use nuclear weapons in this crisis, deterrence is about having forces that are so overwhelming and reliable that any rational adversary would hesitate, simply wouldn't take that step. it would be utterly unthinkable. this is a war that can't be thought because it can't be won. so you need to make sure your weapon systems are solid and up

to deliver on that warning of deterrence. i think it is, as painful as it is, good the pentagon is thinking again about this and spending the money. it'll take some years before these systems come online, but our conversation with secretary of the air force took place a month into the war in ukraine. the war in ukraine clearly shadowed our conversation. it is just one of the realities of today. who would have thought a year ago we'd be talking about modernizing our nuclear forces as an urgent requirement? >> professor, we know that vladimir putin doesn't really answer to anyone. as a senior white house official put it to me, putin doesn't have midterms. he is not concerned about voters. there are key voters we know might have a little sway over his decision making process. one of the generals apparently got himself wounded near the front. there's also the oligarchs, influential, very wealthy

members of the russian elite could have some sway over what he does. you've been watching them carefully. give us the latest as to where they stand now. we're two months in, and the war is not going well. >> yeah. first, it is very dangerous to even open your mouth, regardless of who you are, even an oligarch in russia. so when we see people -- like there is a steel magnet of vladimir leason who said, well, we shouldn't be asking people to pay in rubles because it boots us further out of the international system. these things that may seem not a big deal or kind of tepid criticisms, never of putin but of economic policy, or retired generals speaking out early on against what we now know was severe military inpreparedness, this is a really big deal. putin lives on perceptions of overwhelming popularity, seamless consent for his

policies, and competency. autocrats get into trouble when their incompetence, which 245i they all have, is exposed. we had a lesson in awe thok rah autocracy. no wonder they invest so much in warfare, it is to cover up the incompetency because of professionalism, compromised military. the reason so many generals have been killed, and we're up to 24 senior commanders, is that the troops, many of them are conscripts. they're not very disciplined. so when you have that situation, you have to have more senior people there on the field. then they're getting killed. so we're living through this profound exposure of the wreckage of autocracy, the destructiveness of it. that's why people are starting to speak out. we have to follow that very carefully. >> you know, ruth, i wanted to

ask you about that. i love that, the wreckage of autocracy. i love how you say that because we have been seeing over the past several years, during the trump era, the rise of autocracy. of course, there was richard haass' organization. i'm sure you remember, they had a magazine, cover of the autocrats. china, russia, you know, from the rise of, of course, hungary and across the world. it was the rise of autocracy. my god, it's been one failure after another. you look at this collapse of russia, and i'm not even just talking about the military collapse, but this is a historic collapse that reminds me of, you know, what happened to russia when they lost a war to japan over 100 years ago. like, this seems to be an era-defining moment in that

country's collapse. i will say the same of china, though. it doesn't get reported on as much. xi has made one miscalculation after another over the past five years. he has been a dismal president for china in just about every way. i suspect he will be rubberstamped to run that country again. but they had such an advantage five years ago, and they have lost that advantage on one front after another right now. >> mm-hmm. >> just how badly has autocracy been exposed over the past year or so? >> in fact, that's why you see xi's personality getting a puff up. you know when personality cults become more prominent, it is either because they're, you know, planning new aggression or they know they've blundered and they need to kind of distract the population and seem

invincible and infallible, right? so, really, one of the reasons i wrote "strong men" was to de-bunk these myths of autocracy. one we're seeing de-bunked in russia is authoritarianism is an efficient and superior model of governance. another elite of vladimir putin was complaining about, you know, economic polities as counterproductive. what we see in the history of autocracy is that it is a highly destructive mode of governance. putin was saying, well, it is not a good idea to seize the assets of foreign countries that are leaving russia. but this is just a cover-up. because what no one can talk about, or they'll go to jail or worse, is that putin is a predator. over 70,000 businessmen over the years have been jailed, russian businessmen. if you have a business that is worth anything, the state will

come after it and force a sale. the same thing goes on in turkey. the state has seized over $32 billion of assets. it is happening in viktor orban's hungary. no one talks about that because it is supposed to be good for business. but it's not, as we're seeing. >> we're going to talk about the evacuation going on in mariupol in just a moment. while we're on the topic of china, let's bring in from beijing nbc news foreign correspondent janis mackey frayer. talk to us, if you could, tell us a little bit about how china's leader is scrambling on covid as it pertains to life inside his country and also the world economy. >> reporter: well, right now, it's not been declared a lockdown here in beijing, but it sure does feel like one. there are so many restrictions that are in place now. restrictions that have been in place since before the olympics that are just being tightened. right now, we can barely travel

anywhere. schools are closed. you can't dine in a restaurant, but you can buy the food on the side of the road. theaters are closed. theme parks are closed. you have to show a negative covid test to get into a public park or go onto public transit. there is this mass testing dragnet that has 20 million people in beijing getting tested for covid basically every single day. they've only found about 400 cases. so there are a lot of people who are debating the merits of this zero covid policy that carries such high political stakes for xi jinping. this is, of course, a very important year for him, as he expects to secure his third term in power at a party congress this fall. there doesn't seem to be the sense they're going to untighten the screws on this policy at all, having seen what happened in shanghai. it is why there's still a lot of anxiety here in beijing. even with these restrictions,

there could be a city-wide lockdown. it triggered panic buying last week. i went to the supermarket. store shelves were empty. the government was assuring there is enough food in the city, but it hasn't done much to ease concerns that a full lockdown could be coming. here we are, two years into the pandemic. this moment of truth for the zero covid policy. there are now more than 118 million people across this country that are now impacted by some sort of lockdown. including the country's two biggest cities that are being hobbled by restrictions. we're seeing it show up in the economic data. global supply chains have been impacted. so the rest of the world is going to feel the economic impact of this, too. still, xi jinping is apparently very proud of the zero covid policy. the fact that the better part of two years, cases were largely contained. he does see it as a triumph of the system, so there is no

expectation, or little expectation, that we're going to see much change in this policy before the end of the year. >> janis, i want to ask you about internal political dissent. i'm speaking mainly in the political system, because, obviously, there's been a real consolidation of power as western observers have said, that we haven't seen since mao. whether you're talking about this zero covid policy, whether you're talking about the repression in hong kong that scared some entrepreneurs off, whether you're talking about the fact that entrepreneurs in general, that five years ago, were rushing to get into china are now very weary about china. certainly have concerns. also, just about the growth. i asked jon huntsman after he came back from beijing, i said -- as u.s. ambassador to china -- i said, what do they want? what does china want? he smiled and said, 9% growth. the communist party wants 9%

growth. because if they get that, they think that everything else will take care of itself. well, this morning, the "wall street journal" reporting that while they're not in a recession, they certainly are moving that direction. with all of these problems, is there any internal political dissent inside the system against xi? >> reporter: i would say no. that's what has been interesting about how the pandemic -- how this latest outbreak was handled in shanghai. the fact that the virus just ran rampant. there were tens of thousands of people being literally corralled into these mass quarantine centers after beijing imposed a way of doing things there. there is some discussion here politically that we could see some sort of shakeupin the

party congress. the failure of the system in shanghai gives grounds for the leadership in be beijing to do a little political house cleaning. removing some officials who may or may not be opposed to the way xi jinping does business. having them removed from their positions ahead of the party congress as a way of shoring up the support in shanghai with people who are more loyal to the current leadership. so there are some political levers that have been pulled over the past few weeks with the way that the outbreak has been transpiring in shanghai. as well, there was this outpouring of anger, particularly on social media in shanghai, that was really rare here. it is rare at any point, but, certainly, during the pandemic. if we look at how people have been able to pent their frustrations the past couple years with these zero covid rules. now that some people in shanghai are being allowed out of their homes, it doesn't mean they can leave their neighborhood, but

they're being allowed out of their homes, we're seeing actual acts of civil disobedience. vegetables being thrown. pots and pans being banged. banners being hung. being taken down quite quickly. but still, this sense that there is a growing public anger with the beijing leadership in shanghai that has been percolating for five weeks during this lockdown. >> all right. nbc's janis mackey frayer in beijing, thank you so much for your report. now back to ukraine. the long-awaited evacuation of that besieged steel plant in mariupol is under way right now. according to president zelenskyy, more than 100 civil ians, mostly women and children, were evacuated yesterday and were being taken to ukrainian-controlled territory. this video of the evacuation has not been completely verified by nbc news. joining us now live from southeastern ukraine, nbc news

foreign correspondent matt bradley. matt, what's the latest? >> reporter: yeah, mika, so we're here in zaporizhzhia. this is a receiving center. as you can see, this is a big box store with a huge parking lot. a lot of people arriving from all over the region, not just from mariupol. we're still waiting on the huge number of people coming out of the azovstal steel plant. some people are arriving from the surrounding region, areas still very much under shelling. i want to introduce you to lisa, our excellent local producer here. this is yulia. she's just arrived. can you tell us, what have you seen? what was it like traveling here? [ speaking foreign language ] >> translator: at the moment when they passed the checkpoint where there was russians, she was crying.

and when she saw the ukrainian checkpoints, she was looking to hug all of them. >> reporter: did you feel in danger at any time during this journey? [ speaking foreign language ] >> translator: the russians come to their place and it was under occupation. six days they were in the shelter. they destroyed the hospital. they almost completely destroyed. right now, the new hospital is damaged, and they were supposed

to stay in the shelter. it was horrible. she's -- she was working as a nurse in the hospital that was destroyed. >> reporter: i'm sorry. so glad you made it out safe. you heard from yulia. she just came from around this region. as you can see, she is one of so many people, you know, her car she came with, all the marks with these white flags. this is the trademark of a lot of the cars. again, she's not coming from mariupol. she's coming from elsewhere here in zaporizhzhia. regions that are very much under shelling. here's another car. this is what we're seeing. and we see this all the time. this means "children." all of these cars are well marked. as you can see here, also further white flags. these are sign after sign that says, "don't shoot. this car contains civilians." we always see these cars,

often -- this one is in tact -- but often they've been shelled and contain shrapnel. often, they've seen horrible signs of carcarnage. >> matt bradley, thank you very much for the live. you get a sense, the woman just breaking down immediately, what they've been through. i can't imagine these people escaping the steel plant. >> yeah. >> who were facing death's door every day they were in there. i'm sure they're shocked that they're even free. unbelievable. >> the entire situation is surreal. you look at pictures from two months ago, before this war began, and you understand just how much has changed for their lives, how things will never be the same again. david ignatius, the question is, when does this misery end for them? five days ago, six days ago, you were writing about, talking about an exit ramp.

does it look more inviting to vladimir putin now? of course, right now, certainly, with the problems he's having, it does not. i'm just curious, though, how do you see this ending? >> so we're all struggling to understand that question, how does this end? right now, we say it probably ends in a grinding stalemate. a bitter slugfest with heavy casualties on both sides. general milley or chairman of the joint chiefs talked about this. months or even years of battling. when i look at footage like what we just saw of the ref yu we just saw of the refgees leaving mariupol and the region, i'm reminded of the x-factor in this war. the x-factor is the resolve of the ukrainian people. russians didn't count on it. the united states didn't count on it. we thought this would go quickly. kyiv would fall in a week.

it didn't. it is because of the toughness of the people like the ones we just watched. think of their brothers and fathers and cousins, sisters back home who are still in the fight. as long as that resolve is present, the russians are fighting on territory that is not generous to them. they're far from home. they're fighting people determined to protect their land. it is a reminder of why this war is going to go on. why russia didn't in the beginning and isn't now sweeping the victory. it's because of the tough people. >> very tough people. ruth, i'm just curious, again, this could be a very long, grinding war. i'm just curious, though, how vladimir putin survives a long, grinding war against the united states and the eu supplies, where i said before the war, it made no sense because, together, we had economies of over $40

trillion. 40 times the size of putin's economy now, if he's even at $1 trillion, given how much he's been pummelling the last weeks. you have ukrainians fighting for democracy, fighting for their country, fighting for their very survival. i just -- i don't -- i don't know how long -- i guess my question to you, how long do you think vladimir putin can afford fighting this expensive war against not only the ukrainians resolve, but against allies with gdps of $40 trillion a year, 40 times as large as russia's? >> you know, when you're vladimir putin, you just engage in more repression of your own people, more censorship, and more thievery. that's why he is talking in part about seizing the assets of companies that have left. and he can't back down.

that's not in the nature of autocrats. indeed, now people's eyes are watching moldova. the logic we're seeing, like a civics lesson in what i call ladies and gentlemen stage autocracy. when you've made a blender, you can't back down constitutionally, psychologically, so you actually do the opposite of what people expect, which is you become more -- excuse me -- more aggressive, more imperialist, more repressive. and it leads to nothing good. >> all right. professor of history at new york university, ruth bin-ghiat. and the "washington post" david ignatius. thank you both for being on. ahead, we'll go to atlanta for a live report as a special grand jury will be seated in a case against former president trump and his allies. >> when he called the secretary of state, who was counting the votes, and said, "hey, buddy, i need you to find me one more

vote that i need to win." >> in other words, help me cheat. also ahead, we have a look at the headlines in papers across the country. why medication to treat covid is being unused. there's new signs that isolation during the pandemic has harmed the development of young children. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. we'll be right back. ♪("i've been everywhere" by johnny cash) ♪ ♪i've traveled every road in this here land!♪ ♪i've been everywhere, man.♪ ♪i've been everywhere, man.♪ ♪of travel i've had my share, man.♪ ♪i've been everywhere.♪ ♪♪ if you have advanced non-small cell lung cancer, your first treatment could be a chemo-free combination

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42 past the hour. live look at st. louis this morning. >> st. louis cardinals. you know, the cardinals actually, mika, they won last night. >> yeah.

>> 7-5. it must be nice to follow a baseball team that actually wins games. here's a look at stories making the front page headlines across the country. two years after the start of the pandemic, covid continues to dominate many of those headlines. in new jersey, antiviral pills used to treat covid are going unused because eligible patients and doctors either don't know about them or are having trouble finding them. >> see, we've been hearing this now for well over a month. okay, you got the pills. figure out how to use the pills. >> two medications, one from pfizer and one from merck. >> this is not hard. you have a pill, use the pill. >> received emergency use. >> look, here's a pill. let's use the antiviral pill to help this patient who needs it. >> they received emergency use authorization in december amid the omicron surge. according to the paper, less than half of the available supplies have been used since

january. according to the "chattanooga times," the expiration of federal programs that paid for uninsured patients and helped stabilize hospital finances during the pandemic is threatening a new kind of crisis. the infusion of aid is ending at a time where hospitals are facing tremendous unmet needs from patients who delayed care for chronic conditions and other health problems, even more during the pandemic. the "portland press harold" has this headheadline. on this summer's menu, reduced dining. portland's ruled allowed restaurants to expand outdoor dining to attract customers. now, the city is tightening restrictions and forcing those restaurants to reduce the amount of outdoor dining space. at least one restaurant owner called it a disappointment to restaurants and tourists alike. >> it seems the outdoor dining

is getting in the way of mobs roaming through the streets, burning things down. >> okay. in wisconsin, the "stevens point journal" reports children born during the covid-19 pandemic are experiencing more developmental delays. those who work in childcare say they haven't seen delays to this extreme before, especially in social and communication skills. >> you know, mika, it is something we were talking about for a very long time. >> wow. >> it is concerning. not just the developmental skills, not just the problem with education, but also, again, let's say it again, mental health concerns for younger americans and for americans of all ages. the lack of socialization over the past couple years causing so many mental health crises. so many problems. for some people, there's the crisis of going back out into society. going back out into having a

normal life. we really as a country have got to confront our mental health crisis. >> it has impacted every age group across the board. coming up, a 2019 call with ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy got donald trump impeached. could his 2021 call with georgia secretary of state put the former president in handcuffs? >> he gets away with everything. he is above the law. even when he is trying to rig the elections and they got it on tape. >> live report from atlanta, where a special grand jury will be selected in the criminal investigation into whether trump tried to influence the 2020 election. "morning joe" is back in a moment. momente for a nunormal with nucala. nucala reduces asthma attacks it's a once-monthly add-on treatment for severe eosinophilic asthma. not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur.

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hey, it's 7:50. welcome back to "morning joe."

>> beautiful shot. so pretty. >> you have to watch "slow horses" on apple plus. this song plays prominently. it's great. it's a great show. you need to see it. jonathan lemire, i've got to say that somewhere "shoeless" joe jackson is resting comfortably in his grave because he knows that soon the 1919 boston black sox scandal will be the second largest in the history of major league baseball. of course we're talking about the fixing of all of these games with baseballs. and if we look at the standings in the american league east, we know that they are working overtime, major league baseball, to fix red sox games because that's the only way you can explain that our beloved red sox on the 2nd of may, mika's

birthday, already 7 1/2 games behind -- let's just face it, the people who have been rigging this sport through 27 world championships, the new york yankees. >> baseball coming off blackout, wanting to make sure the fans are out. how do you do that? our most successful franchise ever. >> exactly. >> the most money, the biggest fan base. let's them have the baseballs that have the little rubber ball inside of it so it flies out. everyone else has to hit bowling balls. good news for you, the red sox, i guarantee it, won't lose today because they're off. but that comes on the heels of a miserable road trip in which they are crushed. tampa, toronto, they just lost 2 out of 3 to the orioles this weekend. the orioles got renamed. they've been for a few years now, the hapless baltimore orioles. >> no more. >> but no more.

we probably are going to inherit that title. and, yeah, there's a long way to go, but 7 1/2 games, the thing about april is, the cliche is you can't win anything in april but you can lose it. 7 1/2 games out on mika's birthday, not good. >> not good. >> other than this extraordinary plot to rig every game the red sox and the yankees play, those two teams specifically, what else is going wrong with the red sox? >> where to start? first of all, baseballs or not, this team is not hitting. they left a ton of guys on base yesterday. they had one of their longest streaks in more than a decade in terms of games out a home run. no one is hitting the ball. at a certain point, it becomes less about the ball and a shortened spring training. the rotation has been thin. the bullpen has blown a couple late leads, having unvaccinated players unable to play in

toronto, the ripple effects from that also unhelpful. everything that could go wrong has gone wrong to this point. >> speaking of rigging the game, more than a year after announcing that criminal investigation -- >> this is a very good segue, by the way. really. >> -- into former president trump's infamous call with brad raffensperger, fulton county begins jury selection today. many the recorded call made just days before the assault on the capitol, trump can be heard pressuring raffensperger to find enough votes so he could win the state. >> i only need 11,000 votes. fellas, i need 11,000 votes. give me a break. so, look, all i want to do is this. i just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have. there's nothing wrong with saying that, you know, you've

recalculated. >> if that's not a crime, i would like to know what is a crime. he gets away with everything. why would we believe that actually he would not once again be above the law? >> joining us from outside the fulton county courthouse, nbc news correspondent blayne alexander. if you could explain the time line for this special grand jury, how it's going to work. >> reporter: certainly. this represents a very major step forward. it all gets under way in just about an hour in downtown atlanta. the district attorney is charged with seating 23 people who are going to make up this special grand jury. let me talk to you about the parameters. they have the power to meet for up to a year, and they're going to focus only on this case. they're not going to hear other cases as a normal grand jury would do. they don't have the ability to approve indictments, but here's what's important, they have subpoena power, which means they

can compel witnesses to testify. of course the most notable of those would be the secretary of state himself, brad raffensperger. so this really represents the most serious threat of potential charges against the former president. i think when you look at the scene in downtown atlanta, you can see that. not far from where i'm standing, there are blockades, sheriff's deputies, vehicles, lighting flashing providing security around the courthouse. the d.a. herself has had to step up her security after receiving a number oaf threats. all of this is certainly wrapping into the magnitude of all of this. the d.a., this is her first term as district, she's a democrat but says that politics don't matter. she plans to bring charges if the evidence bears that, guys. >> nbc news correspondent blayne alexander, we'll be following this. thank you very much. and still ahead, the very latest from ukraine as civilians who have been trapped inside that mariupol steel plant are finally being evacuated, at least some

of them. retired navy master sergeant jason beardsley joins us with expert military analysis. >> and we'll get you up to date, nancy pelosi's historic tour to ukraine, to poland, to the front lines. some pretty extraordinary things said. "morning joe" is coming right back. "morning joe" is coming right "morning joe" is coming right back only from discover. ♪ ♪ i came, i saw, i conquered. (all): hail, caesar! pssst caesar! julius! dude, you should really check in with your team on ringcentral. i was thinking like... oh hi, caesar. we were just talking about you. ha ha ha. yeah, you should probably get out of here. not good. ♪ ♪

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welcome back to "morning joe." you are looking at mika's hometown of washington, d.c. everybody's celebrating all over the world. what do you say, mika? your birthday today. >> i'm 55. it makes you uncomfortable. >> it doesn't. >> what's that song? i don't know why they won't play it. this show is known for its music being sort of representative of

the moment. >> i ms. that. >> where is that song? >> what is the song? what are the lyrics? >> something like i can't drive 55. whatever. looking for it because that's my age. i'm kind of excited. >> you should be excited. it's a wonderful age. >> i know. >> welcome back to "morning joe." birthday wishes to mika. it's monday, may the 2nd, mika's birthday. >> thank you. >> jonathan, i just had this breaking over my flip phone, and it is abc news "washington post's" poll on what americans support and don't support about the war. fascinating, 73% of americans say the united states is either doing the right amount or too little in ukraine. only 14% say we're doing too much, which is pretty remarkable, about 1 in 10. that's donald trump's extended family and certain people on

cable news shows. but get this. at the same time, 72% oppose the u.s. taking direct military action against russian forces, while 21% support the deal. get this, 76% of americans think we should provide more humanitarian support to the ukrainians than we already have. that's pretty amazing. so much for fortress america. these are -- like 76% of americans actually give a damn about freedom. 76% of americans give a dm about european allies who are suffering. i think that's fascinating. 67% say they want us to increase sanctions against vladimir putin and russia. 55% say provide more military support to ukraine than we have so far. and only 21% want us to take direct action. so americans are all in on

helping the ukrainians. 3 out of 4 are all in on helping the ukrainians. about same percentage, though, say let the war stay between the ukrainians and the russians. we don't actually want to confront the russians head on. >> this poll surely to be received with open arms by the white house because the approach the biden administration has taken where the president from the beginning said he would not commit american troops to ukraine, it's not a member of nato, would not put american forces on the ground, american people per that poll certainly agree with that. but we have seen from this administration just an an absolute flood of arms and weapons and money heading to support the ukrainians in their defense efforts. and we saw it just a few days ago, the president asked for $33 billion. that's huge number to help those in kyiv. there's going to be some congressional machinations to

make that happen. >> right. >> and i'm sure some drama over title 42. but odds are that money will get there. the poll suggests the american people are for that, that this is what they want. it's the central issue of this administration, in political terms, will this also improve biden's numbers going forward. to this point, even though americans support his handling of the war, he hasn't received much of a bump in the polls for it, at least not yet. >> a slight ramp. five percentage points ain't nothing. he's managed it extraordinarily well through i would say this war's already been through three or four phases in the past eight weeks. again, headline if you're just waking up, if you're a politician in washington, d.c., if you're working at the pentagon or the state department, white house, i know a lot of you all watch this abc news/"washington post" poll, three big headlines. americans want the united states

to provide more military support. they want the united states to provide more humanitarian support. and they want the united states to engage in more sanctions against vladimir putin's russia. mika, at the same time, they don't want us to get into a hot war with the russians. so, mika, that is actually a tight rope for politicians in washington to walk, difficult to do, but joe biden has been doing just that as jonathan lemire said. he's been doing just that over the past eight weeks. >> and some incredible moments over the weekend when house speaker nancy pelosi visited ukraine, becoming the highest ranking u.s. official to do so since russia invaded more than two months ago. pelosi met with ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskiy in kyiv, walked on the streets with him. she reaffirmed washington's support for ukraine against

russia. >> we are visiting you to say thank you for your fight for freedom, a frontier of freedom, and this your fight is a fight for everyone. and so our commitment is to be there for you until the fight is done. >> jonathan lemire, again, the highest ranking -- >> i love it. >> -- official in the united states to go there. if president zelenskyy hears the speaker's words, hears the words from the secretary of defense, general austin, a very clear message that the united states is there for ukraine to the end. >> yeah. right now the administration and leader of the house of representatives speaking in one voice, saying we're going to be there for you. we're going to keep that funding we talked about, $32 billion, assuming it's passed.

in the weeks ahead, that is headed to europe as well. trump administration, this has changed from a war that ukraine is trying not lose to a war that ukraine can win. that is what the administration is trying to make happen. to this point, they've also done a really good job of keeping its european partners in line, nato allies, more unified than ever, nato likely expanding in the next few weeks with new countryings, the exact opposite of what vladimir putin wanted to do when he launched this invasion at the end of february. to david ignatius' point earlier, it would be nice if a republican had been on that visit as well, b but but it's c where the united states stands on this. even those from the gop saying the president is managing this crisis about as well as he can. that's not where they're targeting their political attacks. >> first lady jill biden is set

to visit een europe later this week. she'll make stops in romania and slovakia, two of ukraine's neighbors who have opened their doors to refugees during the war. after leaving washington on thursday, the white house says dr. bide listen spend two days in romania, where she'll meet with u.s. embassy staff, as well as humanitarian aid workers and teachers assisting refugees. on sunday, a visit to a town in slovakia will put the first lady just miles from ukraine's border. meanwhile, the long-awaited evacuation of the people inside the besieged steel plant in mariupol is under way. according to president zelenskyy, more than 100 civilians, mostly women and children, were evacuated. you see them climbing up the ladderings amidst the rubble there. they were taken to ukrainian

territory. >> great news. some people are calling for the fighters to also be evacuated. that's not going to happen. the russians aren't going to let fighters evacuate so they can go back into action and try to kill more russian troops. it is great news that the civilians have gotten out of there or at least some. let's hope they can get every civilian out of there soon. >> what a nightmare. this comes as the top general in russia's army was on the front lines in eastern ukraine over the weekend in an effort to, quote, change the course of the russian offensive there. that's what ukrainian and u.s. officials told "the new york times". ukrainian forces learned the general may have been at a russian base in izyum near kharkiv but left before it was destroyed by ukrainian fighters. however "the kyiv post" and other ukrainian media report the general was wounded in the leg during the attack.

those claims were notary peted by armed forces. ukrainian forces claimed 200 soldiers including a separate general killed on saturday in the russian-controlled city of izyum. the visit to the front lines by such a high-ranking member of the russian army is unusual. the general is known as vladimir putin's right-hand man. >> let's bring in national executive director of the association to have u.s. navy, retired master sergeant jason beardsley. he is a decorated combat veteran and an intelligence officer. jason, let's just say it up front. we don't know whether the russian general was injured or not. the fact, though, that you have the highest ranking military official on the front lines is insanity. the fact that these russian generals continue to get killed, reports of another russian general being killed this past weekend, insanity.

can you please explain to our viewers just what it shows about how badly things are going for russia's army? >> joe, i think you make a great point. this is a very tough position. the russian military l is failing at this invasion, and vladimir putin is looking for scalps. he wants to save face. the fact they've lost general after general after general in the lead-up to this attack this weekend indicates that the ukrainians are getting fed good intelligence and they're targeting the senior leadership. so having this top -- equivalent to like the secretary of defense -- circulating on the battlefield to assess it is a real sign that putin is probably pretty upset and putting up -- trying to hang heads on this one. we're not sure whether the report indicates that he was wounded, but the very fact he was there during this battlefield assessment so close and proximal to this danger

indicates that russia is in a desperate place. they can't afford to lose this kind of senior leadership. they don't have an nco that will reinforce battlefield auk sessions. everything points to they'll have a difficult time many the next few weeks recovering and continuing this advance. >> you just said something so important. can you again explain to our friends who are watching about -- because we keep hearing this, about them not having an nco corps. can you explain how that provides american troops agility, american fighters agility so they can take whatever is thrown at them during the fog of war? and compare that, again, to just culturally how terrible russia's military is in part because they don't have that same flexibility. >> yeah. i really like the way you framed this. it's about culture and inside this fog of war, what individuals inside a battlefield

do. united states culture is one of great independence, distributing sort of command decisions down to the lowest level so that soldiers in the field can make decisions when leadership is in that fog of war. so we're training our soldiers from the outset from a culture like the united states to be decisionmakers in the battle. the russian forces have traditionally not been that, so they have a light on command decisions, senior generals telling the soldiers at the ground level what to do, and think rely on continue vicinities who aren't really in this fight in the same way the united states would be. when you lose senior leadership, it sort of incapacitates forces on the battlefield, making it a very dangerous play. you've seen this from the beginning where soldier are leaving their vehicles or looking to steal local civilian vehicles. it's been a disaster. it's logistics, background, poor leadership, everything that putin has done to get us here as

jonathan lemire said, he's going to end up in a position that puts him exactly opposite of where he wanted to be -- expansion of nato, hmiliation of his own forces -- and now he has to look for a tactical retreat to save face. >> the washington post talking about a major design issue with tanks from the russian force. it has a jack-in-the-box flaw that can be fatal to the crew inside the tank. russian soldiers are essentially sitting on a powder keg. in most western tank, the ammunition is behind heavy armor and away from the crew. but the t-72 stores it right underneath them and is covered by relatively thin armor. a military analyst told "the post," "american tanks have for a long time preserved survivalability in a way russian

tanks hasn't. for russia, the people are as expendable as the machine. the russians are have known about this for 31 years. you just have to say they've just chosen not to deal with it." so, again, i mean, the question, joe, that many have is how the russian military, how russian soldiers, how their families are processing all of this. we know that they are delivered a lot of disinformation from vladimir putin and from the government in russia. at the same time, the losses and the deaths and the blown-up tanks and the generals dead can't be completely lost on them. >> no, it can't be lost on them at automatic. jason, this is like having the company that designed the ford pinto, designing russian tanks, except ford, because of tort laws, had to change the pinto because it kept blowing up

whenever people would rear end it. here the russians once again show how callous they are, their callous disregard for their men and women in uniform where they allow this design defect to continue the go on because it was said that the russian generals don't call their conscripts cannon fodder, they call them cannon meat, just complete disregard for rank-and-file. again, i guess, what do you think, that probably leads into this culture, right? >> yeah. part of that is culture. it was a great cut-away you showed. the russian tanks have been known for this. there's been great analysis. there are great threads about how poor their design features are. the crew has survivability. that leads to morale. morale leads to come bat

effectiveness. that's term we use to mean when the soldiers go in to fight they have a trust in their equipment. the you look back at how the americans in iraq and afghanistan did this, every iteration of warfare against the ieds, we were continually developing more enhanced systems. happy birthday, mika. >> thank you. >> 31 years of knowing these design flaws and they haven't made adjustments. you're seeing the empire of russia being dissolved in the muddy fields of ukraine. what's catching up is years of indecisiveness, underperformance and reliance as the conscripts are seen as just sort of churn for the battlefield. that's kind of typical russian and it reflect where is the white house has advantages here. the united states military operates differently. you opened your segment with the $33 billion package, the unification of policymakers in d.c. but i'm going to frame this a little bit differently.

we have an opportunity right now to look at what's happening on the ground here in ukraine and avoid the same kind of disaster in a place like taiwan. our united states navy, which we watch closely is underperforming and does not have the funding they need to keep a national nhl strategy up to par with their near pure rival, china. so while we're funding the ukrainians on one hand, i think the united states people have voiced their opinions. we want to support, but i think they also want a robust military so we don't get behind in the next conflict. that's an opportunity for decisionmakers and policymakers to get ahead of this on the next front. >> retired master sergeant jason beardsley, thanks for being on the show with us this morning. earlier this morning we showed you the latest abc news/"washington post" poll on which republicans have lost ground on the generic congressional ballot. they held a ten-point advantage last fall. >> by the way, they're losing a lot of independents, which is

why that number is going down, because the independents obviously turned off by the craziness in the party, even if they agree with republicans on most issues. >> but if the republicans do retake the house, senior white house officials have begun strategizing a response to the expected aggressive investigations. "the washington post" reports the administration has begun hiring new staffers and restructuring various departments to strategize the best response if democrats lose control of the house or the senate. just last week, house gop conference chair elise stefanik tweeted "we will investigate the biden crime family as a matter of national security." >> it's shameless. >> she is so painful. >> so painful and shameless. >> i can't take it. one of those evolutions like j.d. man dell or whoever donald trump said. we met her when she came in to congress. >> smart, bright. >> gifted.

>> gifted. >> and just decided -- >> throws it away. shameful. >> -- at some point she was going to, well, do what she does, the biden crime family. >> let's bring tom rogers into this conversation. >> unl believable. pathetic. >> in a new piece for "newsweek," he's co-written a piece looking at what a gop-controlled house could mean for the ability to control the outcome of the 2024 presidential election. quoting from the piece, "if the house goes mashgdedly republican in 2022, we are setting the stage for donald trump to be handed the presidency in 2024, whether he wins it or not. it is really that simple that the card house republicans could play would prove that american democracy is no more than a house of cards. the 2022 ballot cry needs to be a vote for house republicans is a vote to destroy democracy."

>> tom joins us now, editor at large at "newsweek," cnbc contributor and founder. let me start with what i say to mika all the time. we live in a madisonian democracy. you had federal judges that said hold on one second. doesn't your argument suggest that the federal judiciary would take a pass on this and let republicans steal an election they didn't win? >> well, not necessarily, joe. happy birthday, mika. i'm sorry this column is not intended to bring you good birthday cheer. you'll remember -- >> it's okay. >> -- two years ago in may of 2020, senator wirth and i laid out exactly how donald trump would try to steal the 2020 election, and most people didn't believe us and unfortunately that's exactly the game plan that he followed.

and this column is about the midterms and the big lie and how this really sets up the next steal. and i hope, joe, you are absolutely right that independents see the republican candidates as loonies and liars because of the predictions of the big pickups by republicans in the midterms pan out this november. we are really setting up the likely election of the next president and that president is likely to be donald trump. here's how. as we all know, mike pence thwarted the plan to have the joint session of congress overturn the electoral college results, but the dems were in control of the house then. under a republican house where the liar in chief, kevin mccarthy, is speaker, the path is actually laid out by continue law that's how lawyers refer to

constitutional law, con law. it's combination of the 12th amendment and the electoral town act which really puts this in play, because the way this works, when that joint session happens, if one senator, one congressman october to any given state slate of electors, the two houses retreat to their respective bodies and make a decision on those objections. well, if the house is controlled by a big lima joe torre, the house can deadlock with the senate, and this time they'll have plenty of support from state legislators. to your point about the courts, there's plenty of speculation the supreme court is going to support an independent state legislature doctrine giving that a lot more -- >> well, but -- hold on. i have to stop you right there because you've talked about the i electoral count act of 1887 and it seems to me if this is your fear, then you need to look in your camera and you need to

talk to chuck schumer and democrats in the senate and say there have been republicans who have said they will reform the electoral count act of 1887 and allow -- and take this out of the hands of the house of representatives where they believe it should be taken out of and put it into the hands of the court. shouldn't democrats in the senate stop doing what they've been doing for the past year and a half and go -- stop swinging for the fences and the grand slam and just take that single? if they can get ten republican who is will agree to reform the electoral count act to stop what you're doing, then why don't they do that? >> well, reforming the electoral count act would help. i'm not sure even if they do get together and pass something, i'm not sure that it will take away from congress the ultimate ability to certify the electoral college count. there are things they could do.

i'm somewhat skeptical they will do it. you're absolutely right. it's a necessity. but if they do deadlock, what happens under the constitution is that this is thrown into the house. as you know in the house, the republicans win that state by-by-state delegation vote and in fact gerrymandering recently has only hardened the likelihood that that state-by-state count in the house remains republican through 2024 and beyond. what really concerns me is history here, because in 2010 when the republicans had a big pickup as you remember, 63 house cements went republican. and even though obama in 2012 regained his traction and won re-election, the democrats only picked up eight of those seats that they lost in that big sweep in 2010, leaving the house in a substantial republican majority still. if that replays, that's why i'm

so concerned that a sweep in 2022 will stay put for 2024, and if the electoral count act is not only not changed but not changed significantly, you set up a big lima joe torre being able to thwart the ability of congress to take an electoral college legitimate count and allow a legitimate election to take place. >> well, i'll tell you what, first of all, i think you're right. history would suggest that the republicans are going to win. i don't know how big they're going to win, but the republicans have history on their side to certainly win in the house. we'll see what happens there. i'm not being pollyannish here, a lot to be concerned about but democrats could certainly help by working with whatever republicans they can find to really change the electoral count act of 1887 to make sure again that you actually have

courts that take care of this instead of politicians in the house. the new piece is online now for "newsweek." tom rogers, as always, thanks for being with us. >> thanks, tom. great great having you on this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," poland's resources running dry as ukrainian's refugee crisis continues. we'll have a look at a new effort to hire more teachers for the children coming into poland. you're watching "morning joe." you're watching "morning joe." (johnny cash) ♪ i've traveled every road in this here land! ♪

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missile strikes. according to lviv's governor, jolie spent time visiting a boarding school and promised the students she would visit again. she also met we vak wees at the city's central train station along with ukrainian doctors and volunteers helping refugees. however, her trip was cut short after air raid sirens started to sound, prompting jolie along with her aides to quickly leave the station. anjalee. jolie has been a special envoy for refugees since 2011. last month, she was in yemen visiting ukrainians displayed by the war. more than nine weeks into the war in ukraine, the country's neighbors are struggling with the fallout and the influx of refugees. poland welcomed thousands of refugees when the war broke out including more than half of the 5 million people who fled ukraine. but now it's threatening their cities. they have more than 3 million people come over the boarder

into poland with warsaw and krakow warning they cannot take more refugees, and warsaw's population soaring 15% alone since the invasion began. resources like volunteers, housing, classroom space, and jobs are all running thin. this morning, we have a closer look at what program that is hiring and training refugee teachers for polish schools. the co-founder and ceo of the group all in together, lawrence o'donnell leader, was recently in warsaw to witness this program first hand. >> reporter: more than 5 million people fled ukraine since the war started, according to the u.n., and poland took in more ukrainians than almost any other nation, more than 2.7 million people, mostly women and children, in just two months. that's more than warsaw's entire population. some services already hit capacity in big cities like warsaw and krakow, and officials

are urging refugees to find shelter elsewhere. and the polish school system is under extreme stress, despite being among the best in europe. in the last few weeks, more than 75,000 new students will be registered with warsaw taking in more than a thousand a day. officials expect the total could soon hit 700,000 students, a number higher than the entire l.a. school district. but a new program by the global aid organization care and their polish partner pttm is addressing this by hiring and training thousands of refugee teachers for polish skills. the ceo michelle nun says is goal is twofold -- help teachers make a living and help traumatized child refugees get adjusted to new schools with polish kids. >> you have opportunity to go to school and go to school with other ukrainians and to speak with a teacher who actually understands your language. that can be, you know, really a huge transformational comfort.

>> reporter: we talked to four women who have signed up to teach. they all said it was important for them to support ukrainian kids, especially in the classroom. >> translator: when i heard about an american organization helping teachers get involved by working with ukrainian children, i felt like that was god's answer to my prayers. >> translator: in our situation, it's like hitting the jackpot for us. there are no job offers for women in warsaw. >> translator: for my daughter and others, they feel like ukraine is closer to them, like ukrainian teachers are part of ukraine, and to them, it's easier to get used to adjusting this way, by having someone from our community, from our country. >> reporter: despite getting to safety, ukrainian child refugees are still grappling with trauma of war and the stress of adjusting to a new environment, with most of them having left behind brother, fathers, even grandfathers who are fighting in

the war. but the simple routine of attending school can do wonders, providing normalcy and structure amid the chaos. and the teachers are adjusting too. daria fled her small town in ukraine with her son, max, and mother, olga, when the war broke out. they drove more than 2,000 kilometers through four countries before making it to poland. she was a language teacher before the war, and now she's working with care to ramp up the teacher training program. >> it is very important to have routine for all of us, to wake up and to know that you will do that, then you do that. this instability, it's the worst. >> lawrence o'donnell joins us now with more. lawrence o'donnell, what an incredible program, at the same time, it's really a microcosm of the bigger problem that warsaw, krakow, city asian cross poland are dealing with where there are too many people for the services that they have. >> right. and across europe, where there

are refugee children from ukraine, i heard from the teachers that i met with that many of the former students from ukraine are not in school at all because they're in country where is there aren't programs to help them integrate. but it is a bright spot in poland that these amazing teachers who desperately want to help and contribute are able to work and support the kids in the classroom, many of whom are struggling with, you know, a lot of trauma from what they've dealt with. i heard about children who won't sit near the window. a young girl who carries a pillow with her everywhere. the sort of stress and anxiety these kids are carrying makes it difficult for them to learn and have any kind of normal life. these teachers are going above and beyond. one other thing i learned that i thought was amaze, a lot of the ukrainian teachers who are now living in poland and elsewhere, they're running ukrainian school every day by zoom in order to stay connected with their former students, to give them some sense of normalcy and some connection to one another.

but they're really scattered to winds and the challenges of getting these kids any kind of a normal life is enormous. >> all right. lawrence o'donnell, thank you so much for that report. we appreciate it. coming up, while you may have seen mitt romney in public and not even known about it. new reporting says the senator wears a disguise in public to hide from trump supporters. what it means for him and other potential leader who is might take a pass on public service to avoid the ugly strain of hate in american politics right now. beal right back with much more "morning joe." back with much me "morning joe."

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i was a little confused about why me, but then i was told you get your highest approval ratings when an african

biracial guy is standing next to you, so -- ever since you've come into office things are looking up. gas is up, rent is up, food is up. everything. not to mention no presidents in my memory has given more marginalized groups opportunities. i'm talking about women, the lgbtq community, the taliban, the list goes on and on. >> trevor was so good. >> mika, it was also great, we had a president there who wasn't a little snowflake who could actually handle somebody telling jokes about themselves and poke fun at the president and being confident enough, being man enough, dare i say, to be able to laugh and smile at the jokes, which donald trump never was. and it was great to see that. it was -- you know, a lot of people voted for joe biden for a return to normalcy. we saw that a president not only

could laugh at himself but could praise a free press, praise a free press that even goes after him and attacks him every day. that's actually the difference between the united states and russia, something that joe biden appreciated something that donald trump most definitely did not. >> and in his closing remarks, trevor got a little serious about that, about what it means to be free. it means so many different thing, but it includes freedom of speech, freedom of expression, and he honed in on that. take a look. >> every single one of you, whether you like it or not, is a bastion of democracy. and if you ever begin to doubt your responsibilities, if you ever begin to doubt how meaningful it is, look no further than what's happening in ukraine. look at what's happening there. journalists are risking and even losing their lives to show the

world what's really happening. you realize how amazing it is, like in america, you have to right to seek the truth and speak the truth even if it makes people in power uncomfortable, each b if it makes your viewers or your readers uncomfortable. you understand how amazing that is? i stood here tonight and i made fun of the president of the united states and i'm going to be fine. i'm going to be fine, right? like, do you really understand what a blessing it is? maybe it's happened for so long it might slip your mind. it's a blessing. ask yourself this question -- [ applause ] ] honestly, ask yourself this question -- if russian journalists who are losing their livelihoods, as you were talking about, and their freedom for daring to report on what their own government is doing, if they had the freedom to write any

words, to show any stories or to ask any questions, if they had basically what you have, would they be using it in the same way that you do? ask yourself that question. because you have one of the most important roles in the world. >> richard haass, it was a beautiful conclusion to that event. again, a spirit of celebration for speech, free speech, that we haven't seen for some time. and of course we still have problems. we have problems, you know, with book banning in elementary schools and middle and high schools. we have problems with speech codes and ill liberalism on college campuses that even college deans left of center are starting to awaken to. there are challenges from both

sides, but what we saw the other night was a return to normalcy where people could get together, disagree with each other, tell jokes about each other, and still celebrate freedom, freedom of speech, western democracy in a way that just was not celebrated during the trump era. as "the wall street journal" said, editorial this morning, there's reason why in a lot of places in wisconsin joe biden won by ten points over donald trump and out performed donald trump by ten points where republicans were winning local and congressional races because americans were exhausted. i've got to say anybody saying that the other night would be, like, okay, a return to normalcy and decency. >> normalcy is nice.

it's 'v reassuring and comfortable. i felt what trevor noah said at the end was interesting. it's a remind they're none of us should take for granted anything. when he was talking about freedom of the press, thomas jefferson looking down at that dinner would have liked it. the sense of how central it is to the functioning of nip democracy. it's what holds us all accountable. what you had there was someone reminding us of how central it is and a president who was comfortable with the freedom of the press even if at times it comes at his expense. that is what makes an democracy work. it's an acceptance of those rules. those are the forms and we have to accept it, even when it isn't always in our immediate self-interest. i thought that was a special moment. >> coming up, here's something house speaker nancy pelosi had to say over the weekend in ukraine. >> do not be bullied by bullies. if they're making threats, you cannot back down. that's my view of it, that you were there for the fight.

and you cannot -- you cannot fold to a bully. >> people also say you have to punch a bully in the mouth to get his attention. is that where this fight is heading next david roth join usr that discussion coming up on "morning joe." "morning joe." if you have type 2 diabetes or high blood pressure you're a target for chronic kidney disease. you can already have it and not know it. if you have chronic kidney disease your kidney health could depend on what you do today. ♪far-xi-ga♪ farxiga is a pill that works in the kidneys to help slow the progression of chronic kidney disease. farxiga can cause serious side effects including dehydration,

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so they gave me the test. and he will tell you, i aced it every question, right. and one person said i've never seen anybody ace it before. i said i aced it. i aced it. and they got -- you know it is a

good thing because they no longer called my stupid. i lost one race, they say trump was humiliated. that is what they're waiting for. you know we've endorsed dr. oz. we've enjoyed jp -- jd mandel and he's doing great. >> i think he meant jd vance. the guy who was against trump and now sucked up to him. >> i can't get over this whole -- >> he can't remember his name. >> he's so proud that he was able to say water buffalo, cow, cat, dog, person and leaping lizard. >> that is different than jd vance. >> no, but jd vance is easy to remember. but just imagine if joe biden made that slipup. >> i guy who works a full day. >> that is the thing, donald trump watched news all day. he tivo-ed shows like ours an watch it all day. you actually have joe biden who works. puts in a full day in and works.

and, yeah, and -- >> tnd as great for vance's opponent. josh mandel. >> yeah, jd mandel. i don't know if you saw this, but joe biden's approval ratings ticked up. in "the washington post" and abc news poll he said 42% compared to 37%. it is not great, 42%. but it is a hell of a lot of better than 37%. he's under water with his disapproval at 52%. republicans have lost ground on generic congressional ballot. this, i find, to be fascinating. february, 49% of registers votered said they would pick the candidate from the party of jewish lasers. they would pick the candidate from the party of qanon freaks. they would pick the candidate from the party of stolen elections.

like, from china conspiracy theories. if the election were held that day. and 42% said they would pick a democrat. and the new poll, well, maybe my old theory that crazy doesn't pay. >> crazy doesn't win. >> maybe that theory is coming back into the vote. ome e only 45% chose a republican and 46 chose a democrat. republicans held a ten-point advantage. listen to me. listen to me again, because i could tell you these numbers don't mean anything. when i was campaigning, people would show me numbers, i said i don't care what they look like today, i only care about trend lines. show me what they look like, a month ago, six months ago. well guess what, republicans have lost 10 points because they're crazy. because they've allowed crazy people to talk about jewish lasers. because they've allowed crazy people to take over their primary process. accusing anybody that doesn't believe in them of being

pedophiles. they have been repeated, they've been paritying conspiracy theories from not just qanon, but from chinese religion cults. every day. that is what they have stood for. and by the way, again, look at that number. look at the trend line. they've gone from being ten points ahead to being one down. and i must say, i have to say, jonathan lemire, in part, this crazy may be catching up to this party in part because it is just exhausting. one candidate after another. like, j.d. mandel. you take what j.d. mandel said before, what j.d. mandel arks donald trump called him now, it's crazy. and he's running around talking about stolen elections. when he's the one who said if you loved jesus, you wouldn't

support donald trump in the past. so this shift toward democrats over the past couple of months, not surprising. also not surprising, it is from self-identified independents. this reminds me so much of the french election and that there were a lot of voters who said i don't really like -- i was going to say mitt romney, i don't really like macron. but, he's arrogant and everything, and le pen, she seems to understand my plight better, but she's too crazy and dangerous. i'm going to go ahead and vote for macron. and i guarantee you people like mitch mcconnell, i guarantee you sane political operators are thinking we have got to push these crazy nut jobs so the side. these people that are talking about orgies, and republican meetings, these people that are bringing loaded guns to airport.

>> so far that is all one person. >> that is the same guy. >> qanon theories that are talking about jewish space lasers and they're talking about italians that are stealing elections. they're talking about pedophiles. >> there you go. >> that are still saying if you don't agree with us, you're a pedophile. people who are talking about burning books. who are talking about banning books. i could go on all day. >> just for record, the orgies, the gun at the airport and the license, that is one guy. >> that is one. that is just one guy. >> one guy. >> and as it said in the bible, we've talked about john the baptist that said, in the bible, you know, that is one guy but they are legion. they are legion. especially in the house. jonathan lemire, so independents say, whoa, nelly, what say you? >> yeah, jd mandel, or whatever his name is was one of trump's