♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. the january 6th select committee now at a standoff with the man who arguably did more than anyone else other than donald trump himself in trying to overturn the results of the 2020 elections. donald trump's ex-personal attorney rudy giuliani backed out of an interview with the select committee just hours before it was set to start this morning. julian's attorney at an impasse

and the new york times says this about the significance of giuliani's cancellation, quote. giuliani has been negotiating with the panel about testifying for months and had finally reached an agreement to speak about matters other than his conversations with trump or any other topic he believes is covered by attorney-client privilege. that's according it his lawyer, robert costello. it threatens what could be a major breakthrough for the investigation. his testimony could have included details about interactions with members of congress and others involved in the plan who were not giuliani's clients and with giuliani under a subpoena to testify the standoff raises the specter of yet another protracted legal battle between the committee and a formy trump aide. giuliani's decision to stonewall the committee now puts him on the very same path as other trump allies like mark meadows, dan scavino and steve bannon.

they are dangling holding giuliani in contempt. mr. giuliani is an important witness to the conspiracy to overthrow the government and he remains under subpoena. if he refuses to comply the committee will enforce all options. the committee faces two challenges, holding giuliani accountable if he continues to refuse to testify and continuing their probe in which giuliani is a central figure. his fingerprints are on every single aspect of the failed trump coup plot from the dozens of court cases challenging the election results, every single one of them except one failed, to the scheme to set up those fake slates of trump electors and to push pence to stop the electoral college count from being certified to the various plans to get government agencies, national security agencies at that to seize voting machines, to peddling the big lie that millions upon millions of americans still to this day believes. the same big lie that encited

the attack on the capitol. it is facing off with the ex-president's former personal attorney is where we start this hour. jackie a, well emany, a washington reporter and also joining us msnbc contributor, charler sikes and former deputy assistant attorney general during the clinton administration. jackie, i start with you. take me inside sort of how this fell apart and what did giuliani want to record the interview for? >> yeah, nicole. i'm not exactly quite sure giuliani wanted to record this interview, but this is something that several other associates of giuliani's had also requested. perhaps there was a thinking that the request would cause the dissolution of the committee and costello, giuliani's lawyer, had come to.

there had been more conversations in recent weeks amongst republicans and trump allies of ways to potentially weaponize these deposition and interviews, perhaps giuliani wanted to do something with that recording. i know his lawyer has said that there are certain people on the committee that he distrusted people like adam schiff who he viewed as overly political and partisan, but it is a blow to the committee's work. giuliani was front and center and involved in a lot of -- most of the conversations that the former president was having with various lawyers and people who were involved with the plots to overturn government and the result of the election and he was also a confidant for the president. he was on the phone throughout these months after january 6th, on the lead-up to january 6th and was the person that was the thread running through the white

house, the outside plots and -- and everything that really was accumulated up to january 6th and the committee is now heading into a sprint of a month and with hearings in june where they're going to have to put together a really comprehensive narrative that giuliani could have contributed a lot to. i think he's also in a little bit of a different boat legally than mark meadows. former president trump's chief of staff since he was on the outside. we could see the committee to potentially hold him in contempt and move forward with that process. >> harry littman, i may remember some of the details, but i believe rudy giuliani is under legal scrutiny by the fdny, the eastern district, as well and national that's a national security investigation. i believe there's attempt to scar him.

he's got a lot of legal bills. does rudy giuliani does want to act in contempt of congress to that? >> no kidding. until recently, he would record messages for you for $25. he is in the suit. he's facing a billion dollar verdict, it's true, for defamation with -- >> that's right. >> it's exactly as you say with the fdny. look, this video thing really doesn't hold up because they were going to transcribe it anyway. he's been dithering with them for months. he's in the thick of everything. not simply his conversations with trump which the committee was willing to put off the table. he's mr. trial by combat. remember, at the rally itself? he's also very involved in the phony elector slate so he's everywhere, and also as jackie says he's like bannon because he's not in the government and not like scavino and meadows.

in other words, the department really ought to be able to make quick work of him. i think they should give him a 24-hour deadline and even though they might lose some testimony, refer him immediately. that's something that he really doesn't want to have happen. he's older. he'd be looking at some time in prison, but they've got to after being dithered for months by him, they have to play it hard and straight. >> and speaking of dithered, here is giuliani. >>. >> they don't decide the election. the call for joe biden isn't -- who was it called by? all -- oh, my goodness. all the networks! wow! all the networks! we have to forget about the law. judges don't count. >> if this happens it will

become venezuela. we cannot allow these crooks, because that's what they are, to steal an election from the american people. they elected donald trump. they didn't elect joe biden. >> what we're dealing with here was a plan, not just an accidental oh, gosh, detroit stole an elections or chicago stole an election or new york stole an election, but i think you have a responsibility to go into session, take back your -- look, the people who certified your election, what are they worth? >> over the next ten days, we get to see the machines that are crooked, the ballots that are fraudulent and if we're wrong we will be made fools of, but if we're right, a lot of them will go to jail! [ cheering ] so let's have trial by combat!

>> it's really important before we go any further, charlie, that we have to forget about that they don't count. rudy giuliani failed in court 100% of the time i think with one exception in pennsylvania alone there were 18 cases. he lost them all. he says we're going to become venezuela. they elected trump. they're crooks. the only crooks we've seen evidence of were trump and clark and the people around trump. he talks about a conspiracy. it's not just chicago. it's not new york. the only people charged with seditious conspiracy are the oath keepers and a group of them with the most serious charges and then he's the one who calls for combat. i think he is the only one who uses the word combat that is exactly what ensued and they described it as medieval hand to hand combat. it's what giuliani calls it,

trial by combat, medieval hand to hand combat. i don't know how the person who calls for trial by combat which is described as the victims of that combat as medieval hand to hand combat is an investigation into the pre-insurrection events. >> well, i mean, that's the key and here's the reality check that the january 6th committee is running out of time. though the clock is running on them, they're not going to have the really the -- they don't have the luxury of waiting to litigate all of this and even if rudy giuliani is charged with contempt, that doesn't compel his testimony. it merely has relatively minor consequences. that's easy to say, but ultimately this does have to go to the department of justice. rudy giuliani refusing to testify before the committee is perhaps the least surprising story of the day because as you suggest he's not merely a witness, he is a target and i

also think that it's important to note that this committee is about to go prime time and despite the fact that they're not getting the testimony and the cooperation of key people. we shouldn't overlook how impressive their work so far has been. i talked on my bull work podcast yesterday with adam kinzinger who is on the committee. he said they're quite confident that they know the breadth, the scope and they know for sure at this point what donald trump did for 187 minutes, that he sat on his behind, he said, and clearly did not give a rat's ass that his supporters were ransacking the u.s. capitol which kinzinger said clearly to be a violation of his oath of office. whether that is a criminal offense, it will be up to the department of justice and to others, but this committee know it is the tore and its job now will be to tell that narrative

and to make that narrative grafshgly clear to the american people and then in terms of holding people like rouge -- we're not going to be left up to any illusions because the january sixth exit was in may and they had a short window to finish up their work. >> i've had the kfrgd with members of the committee and with all of you. we focus on the speed bumps and we sometimes obscure the 90 mile-an-hour highway that they're tearing down. >> exactly. >> jackie, to charlie's point, i'm not sure how many more pieces of the giuliani story they would need. they've spoken to the people close to pence. they spoke to mark short. they spoke to greg jacob. this is what i alone can fix it

reports. pence who was accompanied by jacob and mark short calling him politely refuted eastman who another federal judge likely committed felonies with trump. provided based on extensive research, was there simply no legal way for him to reject the electors to overturn the election. the constitution would not permit it. after the meeting eastman said to giuliani, there's no way this is going to happen. i don't have the exact minute by minute timeline, but i think eastman tells giuliani it's not going to happen on or around the same time he calls for trial by combat. i don't know anyone closer to trump explicitly calling for violence other than rudy giuliani. do you think they're looking at some of these other individuals in addition to trump, jackie, in

terms of criminal referrals or do you think their assumption is if they see it doj sees it? >> this topic exactly, nicole is the conversation that's lively debate amongst the members. i'm not sure if there's been an agreement yet, but i want to note the very strong language that was used in the statement yesterday about giuliani. important witness to overthrow the govern am. that phrase has not been publicly used by the committee in quite some time. it does remind me of chairman thompson comments their work last year when he did have an election, we weren't there to steal anything, and -- if they keep coming back, and there

wasn't the con pir see. ps his subpoena came last month despite mark meadows and get corroborating opinions bns are witnesses who are potentially more credible witnesses to begin with. we know bernard kerik who testified before the committee months ago along with some of the other people who were working with him and the willard who were working with him in the campaign capacity and who we're potentially dealing with him in the white house. so we have to remember the committee has had multiple ways of gathering their information. whether or not that has painted a picture or been enough evidence to make other criminal referrals, that remains to be seen. >> harry, we cover rudy as daffy because he plays the part, but

when you look at the reporting on what trump was blessing doj to do or dod to do. there are new revelations in the book by mark esper, just to look at some of the crazy things he said differently and when rudy giuliani gave the speech about venezuela with sydney powell it seems so wacky, but then when you read in about how donald trump could have operationalized his desire to seize voting machines, this is in "the new york times" story. when giuliani read a draft ordered to have federal agencies seize voting machines he told trump that the military can only be used if there was clear-cut evidence of foreign interference in the election. can someone examine the conduct and work backward from that? >> does that sound pham familiar to seize voting machineses? >> look, he's daf, but he is

also braisen, sin and shamelesses and he propolls theity innive and he's having the american people. it is it is so p/e benign hu of trumpism and back to jackie's point. it's true. they have 800 witnesses and they are confident. i spoke on my podcast with congressman rankin that they have a few exceptions and they don't involve giuliani like the one phone call with pence. everything in there, there has been a spate of cooperative interviews, including don jr., ivanka, and giuliani is now stopping in his tracks. i do think they think they will get it anyway, nevertheless, he is so panoramic in his role that

the -- that his information would be very valuable, but i agree with charlie. i think it's getting too late to get it. they just have to do a final kind of put up or shut up, rudy and shut up means go to the department of justice. >> charlie, i'm still mulling over your comment about kinzinger's remarks to you. it's a fantastic interview. everyone should turn it on at 6:01 and listen to the whole thing. your point that they've got the story is a good one and it brings me back to this frame that people had around the two impeachments. wow! you ask people right, left and center, what do you think's going to happen? they've got to have a smoking gun. they had a smoking gun, right? they had sonde lynn, hill, and he exported zelenskyy, and take his word for it. by the end of the whole thing he basically copped to it. second one, same thing.

wow, they need a first-hand witness and no one knew when he was doing. he was watching tv and he called kevin mccarthy and said we are more mad than you. everybody knew what happened. i am concerned that we will be looking for a smoking gun and mueller had the six smoking guns and the alleged obstruction of justice. nobody ever read it. impeachment one had a smoking gun to everyone who heard him on the perfect call with zelenskyy. and with the impeachment, everybody knew what he did. everybody. i wonder what you think. the measure of success will be for the public hearings of the 1/6 committee. >> first of all, there are not only smoking guns. the ground is littered with smoking guns here. learning what happened that day and also the scope and the breadth of the attempt to overturn this election and how serious the conspiracy was.

why all of those former secretaries of defense signed that remarkable letter saying the military had no role and saying that they thought it was a possibility. many of us were alarmed and apparently we were not sufficiently alarmed, but your question is the key one. how will we know whether or not there's accountability and that will be up to the department of justice. i think people ought to be prepared for donald trump and his supporters, the people in maga world to basically cop to everything that the committee comes up with by saying, okay, you're partisan, but yeah. we did this. we did all of that and we are glad we did. january 6th was a patriotic protest -- patriotic americans who were objecting to a stolen election. they are revising history to make it look like the steps that we regard as a coup and an insurrection were, in fact, legitimate responses and that is

based on a big lie. we need to understand the alternative reality that they're existing in. it will come to congress and it will come to the department of justice and to the american people who decide whether or not they want to give donald trump a second crack at being commander in chief. whether they want to put him back in the noval office and give him the nuclear codes and give him control of the department of justice again because nobody should be under any illusions would a trump presidency 2.0 would be now that he knows where the levers of power are and what he's capable of doing and the kinds of people that he would have there. >> it's what it all comes down to. thank you very much so putting it in those stark and disturbing terms. when we come back, more sound has been unearthed with republicans speaking publicly, not to us, the public after january 6th. another example of the wild

swings from denouncing the ex-president's behavior to gleefully rehabilitating him as their dear leader and a full plate ahead for nancy pelosi, pledging to stay focused on protecting a woman's right to choose as the select committee investigating the capitol riot wrapping up possibly about hearing from some of the ex-president's enablers and there's what to do as we move forward in the war in ukraine. lots to talk about with her when the speaker joins us coming up later in the program, a former drug czar weighs in on new revelations that the ex-president proposed bombing mexico's drug labs and not telling them. that's right. all of those stories and more when "deadline: white house" returns after a quick break. don't go anywhere. k. don't go anywhere. we're carefully designing our bottles to be 100% recyclable, including the caps. they're collected and separated from other plastics, so they can be turned back into material that we use to make new bottles.

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there's more evidence to be a republican in good standing is to debase yourself in the altar of trump and trumpism. jonathan martin and alex sander. they've been releasing tape after tape filled with galling revelations and private conversations about the republican party and its members and trump in the aftermath of january 6th. they released more tape last night. this time of lindsay graham on the phone praising donald trump's golf game while the ex-president was being interviewed by the reporters. this was back in april of 2021. four months after lindsay graham reportedly discussed invoking the 25th amendment to remove donald trump from power and

after he took to the floor of the senate and said count me out. remember that? he said enough is enough. it's been fun when it came to donald trump. so here he is. they described him on "the daily show" as a dancing monkey. >> and more importantly, would you tell them one thing, can trump play golf? legitimately play golf? >> okay. so listen, i thought it was all bull [ bleep ] too. so we go play for the first time, you know, i've heard this. i've heard that, so he shot an even par. >> yes. >> he was at one under, but even par playing by the rules of the gods and after that he started helping me with my game. >> he's with huge hands, too.

it makes me vomit in my mouth a little bit even though i know it is what they all do. i don't know what to do with it. >> you know, it's worth remembering that lindsay graham didn't always used to be this way? remember he was a serious guy? he was a presidential contender. he was john mccain's best friend. he used to have a sense of humor and he's been a running joke for the last several years. what's striking to me is he's not alone. this willingness to self-humiliate and grovel has been a feature of the republican party and it never ceases that the members of the united states senate, these are important people, they look at lindsay graham and they think, maybe he's figured this out. maybe i could be more like lindsay. i'm going to call up the president and tell him how beautiful he is and what a great golf game he has, and so this

has now become -- this has become the requirement. you watch the senate debates in places like pennsylvania and ohio and it's one suck-upfest after another because again, this is what is required in the republican party and it's required by donald trump and the voting electorate, the primary electorate has no problem with it. >> i'm going to quibble with one thing. i don't think anyone says how i can be more like lindsay graham. let me read you this, harry littman, also from this new book by jonathan martin and alex burns. on january 6th, an enraged lindsay graham called pat cipollone, that he if he didn't denounce the mob he'd be asking for the 25th amendment to remove trump from office. after they evacuated lindsay

graham expressed optimism that the riot could become a turning point. people will say i don't want to be associated with that, end quote. there will be a rallying effect for a while. graham suggested biden was the right man at the time and now mad can you be at joe biden? >> i'm not alarmed by calling trump skinny and good at golf. i'm alarmed about this, because for me, i thought the 25th amendment was a moment to exhale. i worked at the white house and whatever comes out is the tip of the iceberg in the mayhem. what was coming out when the op ed was published and it was miles taylor and they saw what we saw. i wonder, harry littman if you take these statements and examine these witnesses under oath in any sort of probe into what the people who had first hand knowledge of what trump was doing and saying if they at some point have to testify to these

kind of statements. their true observations on january 6th and their true conversations with the white house council about using the 25th amendment to get rid of him immediately that day. >> as everyone with any sense felt at some point. look, i want to zero in on his statement. we are better than this and what is so toxic about it. a nice detail, by the way, in the report. what happened is they're talking to trump. lindsay graham calls up and trump just puts it on speaker and says dance, lindsay. tell us about our golf game and lindsay starts dancing. look, this is the guy who committed and was in the history of the american presidency and for him to go back and forth and now start talking about golf or whatever he did and it's repugnant precisely because it makes it seem as if the whole thing wasn't serious. whatever he said before it's all kind of a joke. i mean, there were some

republicans, even mcconnell who understood the gravity here and when a guy like graham waffles, it means even when he was condemning, it was all a political performance, nobody cares at all. it's just trivial and that is nauseating, as you say. >> i wonder, pat cipollone, the white house counsel has talked about by a lot of people phil rucker, right in their book that they thought donald trump could be charged that day. we have hannity texting that he believes that cipollone and the whole team will walk. you have the testimony that there was at least one phone call between pat cipollone and lindsay graham on january 6th. i wonder what you'd know about how his story has been reflected by the 1/6 committee?

>> we know that the committee has spoken with the two white house counsel that were closest to president trump with pat cipollone and the extent to the cooperation is still unknown, but you're exactly right. there were two people who were raising red flags along the way and doing their job to some extent and one of the items that the committee requested in their initial request to the national archives and records administration that they issued in july or august was actually the handwritten notes that one of the lawyers was contemporaneously keeping during the meetings with trump and by all accounts as nora has handed over, it's very likely that the committee has gotten their hands on these notes and we know that investigators have been sort of operating in a prosecutorial model, most likely using those

items and notes that they've been collecting along the way to probe people during their depositions and interviews meaning that it's very possible that the lawyers who were a part of the white house counsel's office have answered candidly, but again, the committee has done a very good job at keeping the most precious nuggets of information under very tight wraps and are likely to reveal that in june. >> those public hearings, back to where we started that those have the potential to really be revelatory, but back to charlie's point to everyone still opening up revelations. harry littman, three of the very best of the best. thank you so much for spending some time with us. when we come back, was there one lawmaker who was not afraid to stand up to donald trump and he's done so publicly so many times.

house speaker nancy pelosi will be our guest and the january 6th investigation and her rcent trip to kyiv to meet with president zelenskyy after a short break. stay with us. president zelenskyy after a short break. stay with us hey! for a limited time, get 50% off a complete pair. visionworks. see the difference.

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this is an assault on privacy. who knows what's next? who knows what's next? marriage equality? there are so many things that are rooted in privacy in the

constitution that they could go after now. it's really appalling, and so let's -- people say we should march -- maybe, but right now we have to keep our eye on the ball. this is what they're doing. this is what it means to you. >> house speaker nancy pelosi with a stern warning about the stakes for civil liberties for the future of the united states supreme court's most likely forthcoming decision to overturn roe versus wade. plus they're vowing that democrats would keep their eye on the ball and work toward legislation that would protect abortion rights in america. there's a hitch there. they don't yet have the votes to do so. andy carney in "the new york times" rights this, to cement abortion rights into law. the legislation is all, but certain to be blocked by republicans falling short of the 60 votes needed past the filibuster. it appears to lack the simple majority to pass the 50/50

senate given that joe manchin, the centrist from west virginia who opposes abortion rights bringing up an identical measure in february and has shown no signs of him shifting his position despite overwhelming evidence the majority of the american people support abortion rights. the abc news poll last week finds that by a two-to-one margin americans think roe versus wade should be upheld rather than overturned and conservative charlie sykes of our last two blocks points this out, he says the law is poised to be enacted in red states assuming roe is overturned or too radical even with most republican voters. in state after state gop legislators have made it without exceptions for rape and incest and the extreme cases the life of the mother. to put it mildly, this reflects a dramatic change in the position that pro-life republicans held until about five minutes ago. joining us now, house speaker

nancy pelosi. madam speaker, thank you for making some time for us today. i know it's been a really busy couple of weeks. >> thank you. it's wonderful always to be with you, nicole. >> so here's what i haven't heard from democrats yet, and i know the house has moved to protect abortion rights so i'm not asking you this in your role as speaker, but as your role as leader of your party. democrats and republicans decided roe for the very reason you said in that clip we played, privacy. they saw democratically appointed supreme court justices. all of the republicans on this supreme court didn't vote to overturn it, that's how radical it is and to charlie's point how do you make sure that your party's messaging keeps you where you are which is in the mainstream of public opinion and that republicans don't successfully turn themselves into the ones advocating for the mainstream when they are not. they are way out of the mainstream on this.

>> well, thank you, nicole for focusing on this very important issue in the lives of american people, america's families, and america's women, of course. roe v. wade was not an extreme position. it weighs equities in terms of timing and all the rest. we have to make sure we keep the focus on enshrining roe v. wade in the law so that there cannot be undue burdens placed on it in different states in the union to overturn a woman's right to choose. now when you hear the debate now, the republicans are saying oh, they want this. they want that. no, we want this calibrated position that was declared by the supreme court really upheld by casey, and 14 times there had been legal decisions addressing the precedent and the privacy that is contained in roe v.

wade. again, in other words, let's not take our eye off the ball and the republicans want to say let's talk about how the leak came out. no, we're talking about what this means in the lives of the american people and our commitment to the calibration that is contained in roe v. wade and we want to enshrine that in the law. we passed that in the house months ago. the senate will take it up on wednesday. it will take us down a path and we have to keep fighting until that right is protected because i had very serious concerns about what that means in the lives -- and i have five children and six years and one week. i have to add the one week. i appreciate and respect the differences that we have in our own lives, but the fact is it's not up to the justices of the supreme court or members of congress to determine the size and timing of america's families. >> part of how we got here, and i'm to be blunt, partly to blame

is republicans have been man ikely focused on supreme court picks and nothing else. it's how they plugged their nose and vote for donald trump. they say so. in making sure that we don't have five justices that excludes george w. bush's pick for chief justice don't take away a constitutional right. how do you match the intensity at an emotional gut level on the other side. >> you're right. there has been a single focus on the part of republicans and i put some of the -- all of this at the doorstep of mitch mcconnell. mitch mcconnell had over and above his priority to put justices on the court that would overturn a woman's right to choose. it was not only how people voted for president, but it was how they voted in the senate.

i do think that once they win in this election in november which we fully intend to do and we have a couple more senators who were pro-choice would be able to enshrine roe v. wade as the law of the land and that means we have to win two more who are pro-choice, but also who are willing to pull back the filibuster in order to do that with 51 votes. so again, you're right, though. we often wonder, why don't people understand when they vote for president that it's about the third branch of government that this president will appoint and it's not just the supreme court. it's all of the justices along the way. sometimes it really just takes something as appalling and such an assault on privacy on precedent, on the constitution, on personal liberty and the rights of women and families and not country, that bring people's

focus into this is what your vote means in the election and how it affects the courts and how it affects you. >> you and i are both from the states in which this right probably isn't at risk in california and new york, but claire mccaskill, our friend isn't and she fears that in missouri as soon as this decision if the majority opinion does represent where the court will go and there's no reason to think it doesn't based on justice roberts' comments that in her state abortion will become legal immediately. what do we do, you know, starting in july? because -- i hear you and i have heard other democrats talk about how motivating this could be and it could change the tide of midterm history and this is a right now crisis for women in this country and what do we do for them right now? >> yes, i think you're absolutely right. we have to be -- we have to have clarity in what this draft

decision means so that the final decision doesn't go that far. the chief justice has said this is authentic, but it is not final. i don't want to use the word authentic, it's real, but not final. again, lincoln said public sentiment is everything and with it you can accomplish almost anything and without it nothing. women just have to weigh in. i don't think there's a good outcome here, but i think there's a better outcome than what we have seen in the first draft which is radical. it dispenses with precedent even though some of these candidates for when they were candidates for confirmation said they support it as what you've seen over and over and they support the precedent and what it means especially the precedent that has repeatedly been reinforced, but again, you are completely right. this cannot wait. that's why right now instead of people going off on the -- on

the republicans would like us to talk about, the leak -- we're talking about your life, the life of women in our country and how we have again, a calibration of all of this in roe v. wade and how we must have it be enshrined as the law of the land. they will make charges about it and we have to stay very clear and very focussed about what it is and what it means in people's lives. had is a severe danger to women. it is a severe danger to the constitution of the united states. it's a severe danger to other rights of privacy that are in the constitution, but again, it's the here and now. the here and now and the focus that we must have. >> we woke up -- was it a week ago and i was here and you were in kyiv and it was a big deal for you to show up there. i wonder if you can tell us what

president zelenskyy needs that he still isn't getting or if those sort of pleas for weapons have been answered, and tell us if you have thoughts about the stories over the last two days about american intelligence sharing enough to help them make decisions about taking out some very senior russian generals and perhaps even that flagship. >> well, starting with that, as a person involved in intelligence for more than 25 years in the congress, the first person in the leadership to have a security credential, i am very concerned about newspapers reporting if i don't confirm or deny what that report is, but i don't think it's helpful to have that kind of reporting. i say that with all of the respect in the world, and i protected the rights of -- of the press to be protected when they put information out there

that the burden of proof has to be on the government to prove them harmful this any event, but i don't think it's helpful to say whether it's true or not. i can't confirm. what i do know, it's not helpful. in terms of what we did, very proud of president biden and what he has done to unify -- unify us in congress. we will have bipartisanship when we pass this legislation. very unifying within nato, bringing countries together in timing and the rest that we all shared the same values, had to come to it in timing, and we went there very prayerfully, before we went in, we had our moments of silence and prayer in our own faith traditions about what it meant, and we were very, of course, impressed by president zelenskyy. he is quite remarkable. we know that he is, from what we have seen in the press and in his presentation to congress,

but what we did see more of in our meetings with him, we had one meeting and then another dinner meeting in addition to that, was his complete knowledge of the intricacies and the differentiation among weapons systems. the values that we bring to the humanitarian assistance, whether they're refugees, whether they're displaced within the country, or whether they're under fire in ukraine, the knowledge that he had about his own economy and how it was dependent on freeing up the port so they could export the bread for the world and that's a humanitarian issue as well. and again, the economic -- he wants to -- he needed economic help to pay the troops and to pay the teachers for the children. he autographed my flag, which i had -- which i was given by many of the grassroots people with their thanks and friendship and that, and he signed it about,

this is all about the children. of course, i love that. but we had a great delegation. we had the chairman of the foreign affairs committee, who knows sanctions, sanctions, sanctions. a member of the armed services committee and intelligence committee who knows weapons, weapons,weapons, and the chairman of the intelligence committee, who -- adam schiff, well, i said greg meeks, chairman of foreign affairs, adam schiff, chair of intelligence, jim mcgovern, chair of the rules committee, and an expert on hunger security, food security and then jason crow, member of intel, and armed services, who knows the weapons systems so well. and it was interesting to see, with all the knowledge that the house members brought to it all, how up to date and just so informative was zelenskyy.

he's remarkable. he's a hero to the world. we felt very honored to be meeting with him, and he started out by being very grateful to the people of the united states for the help that we have given him, very grateful to president biden for his leadership in support of the people of ukraine, and we brought our admiration and commendation to the people of ukraine for their courage and fighting for democracy, because that's what this fight is about. >> madam speaker, do you support his request for the biden administration and congress to designate russia a state sponsor of terror? >> absolutely. i've been advocating that for a while. if russia is not listed as a state sponsor of terrorism, tear up the list, because here you have the leader of a country, a nuclear power, a country invading another country, and in the -- in doing so, threatening tactical -- use of tactical

nuclear tactics. you have a president of a country who has turned his own soldiers into such acts of violence, raping children, little girls, 11 years old, repeatedly, in front of their mothers or raping their mothers in front of the children, taking children and kidnapping and sending them -- see, i'm all about the children, as you probably know. that's been my whole reason. that's my why i'm in congress, about the children, and the acts of violence that are outside the circle of civilized human behavior, and then as a coward, putin is -- zelenskyy is a hero. putin is a coward. he's fighting -- instead of fighting a war, he's fighting against civilians. he's fighting against children. he's using that as a weapon of war. so, i think absolutely, they should be on that list of state sponsored terrorists and i'm hoping that will happen. now, i've been advocating it for a while, and i think it's a

discretion of the president to do that. since we -- president zelenskyy a while back, early on, made that suggestion in conversations i had with him, but i've been on that place for a while anyway. but now, their parliament -- their parliament passed a -- since we left -- passed a resolution asking the house and senate to do just that, place russia on that list, and i still think it's the prerogative of the president. there's some legalities involved in how global is their violence and terrorism, but nonetheless, i think it must happen. when it happens, this is why it's important, it happens, it strengthens sanctions, sanctions, sanctions. it makes it easier to implement the sanctions. >> right. >> it has secondary sanctions in it as well. i think it's very important to do. >> i mean, i -- i appreciate

your candor. if they don't belong on the list, we should tear up the list. that's how, i think, a clear-eyed person who covers the atrocities in bucha and the use of rape of children and women as a weapon of war, you're right. if they're not on the list, we should rip it up, as someone smart just said a few moments ago. house speaker nancy pelosi, not mincing words today. thank you very much for spending some time with us today. . >> pleasure. thank you. we'll pass the bill, i'm hoping next week, to send additional military, economic, humanitarian assistance to ukraine. it will be very strongly bipartisan. thank you, nicole. >> come on back when that happens. we'd love to talk more about exactly what is in that. it's a huge package, and i think people gloss over all that is in there because you're right, it is helping him do what you just said, run his country at this point. and his economy. thank you so much, madam speaker. >> my pleasure. thank you. up next for us, cities all across ukraine are bracing for

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>> reporter: ivan used to be a builder. now he teaches the art of the molotov cocktail. the civilians who come to this old warehouse aren't just getting an education in esprit de corps. they're weaving camouflage net that will be used by real soldiers and sewing body armor. much of this civilian-made material will go to civilian soldiers, the militias who still rank among ukraine's most effective fighting units. here in zaporizhzhia, old cars are stripped and smelted into body armor, and russian weapons are used to test them. >> hi there, everyone, it's 5:00 in new york. no one, we're guessing not even vladimir putin himself on day 72, can at this point doubt the ingenuity, the courage and the spirit of the ukrainian people have shown the world these past 72 days. those virtues will be critical over the next 72 hours. in the lead-up to russia's tremendously symbolic, if not propaganda-rooted victory day. the mayor of kyiv this morning warning his people there is a

high probability a russian rocket fire across all regions of ukraine coinciding with that holiday next week. vladimir putin might see the city as mariupol as a prize to be presented to his people on monday, but a russian victory there is by no means complete. fighting at that steel plant rages on with civilian evacuations starting and stopping. 500 people have been rescued in recent days, but there are undoubtedly still ukrainians trapped, including civilians. the u.s. has done its part, sending not only weapons and supplies to ukraine, but aiding in the intelligence effort, we're learning, as well. yesterday on this program, nbc news was first to report that u.s. intelligence helped with the mission that sank russia's flagship in the black sea back in april. this afternoon, at the pentagon briefing, press secretary john kirby reiterated that the information provided did not include any targeting information. watch. >> we provide them what we believe to be relevant and timely information about russian

units that could allow them to adjust and execute their self-defense to the best of their ability. the kind of intelligence that we provide them, it's legitimate. it's lawful. and it's limited. >> and meanwhile, as we speak, first lady jill biden is in ro romania, having met with u.s. service members who are part of rotational deployments in support of our nato allies. before she left, dr. biden spoke to our colleague, simone sanders. >> have you spoken with mrs. zelenskyy? >> i've gotten a letter from mrs. zelenskyy, and i've also spoken to the first lady of poland, and she gave me her list of things that they needed so, you know, i think it's -- i mean, we're in a conversation, but it's not really, you know, one-to-one, although i did talk on the phone with mrs. duda. >> this pivotal moment in the war is where we begin the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends.

former u.s. ambassador to ukraine, william taylor, is back. he currently serves as the vice president for russia and europe at the u.s. institute of peace. also joining us, retired four-star general barry mccaffrey is here. former member of the national security council, now an msnbc military analyst and john brennan is here, an msnbc senior national security and intelligence analyst. dr. brennan, i want to start with you. are we saying two things that are getting mashed up together? sharing intelligence is not the same as helping another country target their adversaries in a war. what clarity can you bring to the reporting over the last couple days about intelligence sharing with our ukrainian allies? >> well, i think, as john kirby said, the intelligence sharing is limited, which means that there's no realtime intelligence sharing that allows the ukrainians to target a specific russian unit or group. and what they're trying to do is to stay short of hitting the

threshold of becoming a belligerent within this war. we certainly have supplied ukraine a lot of support in terms of weaponry, training, intelligence, but we're not giving them any type of specific intelligence that basically allows us to do everything except pull the trigger. and i do think that the lawyers and appropriately so, because there are a number of domestic and international legal implications of becoming a belligerent in this conflict, but also there's been reporting about u.s. intelligence going after, providing information about the whereabouts of russian generals, and there are prohibitions against assassinations, and the leadership within the russian military, that would be assassinations, so i think therefore, there are very important legal limitations. but also from a practical standpoint, it's not unknown to the russians in terms of what we are doing, but what we don't want to do is to push the envelope so far that it's going to trigger some type of escalation that may not be in our interests. >> you know, ambassador taylor,

cal perry, who is a phenomenal journalist and is in kyiv for us after being in lviv for the first month of the war, made sort of an adjacent point, that -- he said, you have to understand, this is not like spy games, like cold war era. the russian soldiers are talking on their cell phones with family back at home, and the ukrainians have been broadcasting on their television news, the intercepts from those calls, which are not secure calls being made from battlefield skiffs or anything secure. what are sort of shades of gray in terms of how sloppy the russians have been and how many high-level generals are on the battlefield? it feels like some of what is in these stories assumes that people understand everything that cal was trying to explain about how this war is really going down. >> so, nicole, one thing it's important to understand, what cal is describing, is that the ukrainians are very good at using the intelligence that they

pull together. they pull it together with what the united states provides, what other allies provide, and they then fuse it, and they then determine what their targets are going to be. the ukrainians have been doing this for eight years, nicole. they have figured out how the russians work. they've figured out where the vulnerabilities are, and they are taking advantage of those as a rulebility vulnerabilities. as you say, when there are unsecured phones being used by the russian military and indeed even by the senior russian military, the ukrainians pick it up. they have very sophisticated capabilities that we've worked together with them to develop, and they use them well. >> you, ambassador taylor, were i think the first person in the early weeks of the war to say that this is, in light of the fact that they have been at war with russia in the donbas region for years now, this is one of the best trained militaries anywhere right now.

it just seems like these are important things to keep in mind when these stories sort of land and light up our alerts. >> absolutely right. the ukrainians have been fighting the russians for eight years. and they have developed capabilities, some of which they use our equipment to develop, even more than we've been able to use, so they've been ingenious at using what they've got, and they're very well prepared. the weapons that are now on the battlefield, the 155 millimeter artillery pieces, the long-range artillery, a friend of mine is in the front line. he told me he's seen them in action. so the ukrainians are doing very well with what we've given them and what they've developed themselves. the missiles that took out the flagship, those were ukrainian missiles. they weren't from anywhere other than ukraine. >> i want to show all of you -- i actually don't have it. i want to share something speaker pelosi just said at the end of the last hour of our

show. i asked her, president zelenskyy asked the biden administration to place russia on the state sponsor of terror list, an official designation. speaker pelosi said she's been calling for that for a while, and that if they don't belong on the list, we should tear the list up. general mccaffrey, do you agree with the speaker that if russia doesn't belong on the state sponsor of terror list, the list should be torn up? >> that was an incredibly good interview with speaker pelosi. >> she's great. >> she's entirely correct. i mean, it's a useful statement. it puts it in the correct political context, and we don't have to just stay with ukraine in this massive, deliberate targeting of civilians and their infrastructure, which is a war crime in and of itself. but mr. putin has been failing people around the world. he kills people in london, in his own country.

obviously, syria, the incredible international crimes committed in aleppo, chechnya, so it's time to move on and to embrace this concept that russia has to be a pariah state, not just economic sanctions, but also the political abhorrence of the global community. >> you know, to people without all of your expertise and your collective expertise is truly humbling, it seems so obvious, and when we watched interviews like this one. this is a woman who survived bucha. let me play this for you. >> it was so fast. i didn't understand anything. i screamed, lay down. my mother fell because she had a bullet in her head and me and my father, we also lay down. then my father turned around. he saw that my mother was shot. she asked me to hide behind her body, and i told him that i saw something going through her head.

i wanted to be proven that this is war crime. my father came back, and he told us he was -- that russian soldiers put him somewhere. they asked him questions, and now we want to prove that it was a war crime. >> so, director brennan, it's -- i'll pull back the curtain a little bit. it's really hard to make a choice about playing things like this. these are horrors that are hard for anybody to hear. the horrors of bucha are hard to talk about when they happen, but the more important processes now, they're trying to prove a war crimes case against russia, and it seems really important in the context of the state sponsor of terror designation. i wonder what you make of this debate, and what your concerns are in terms of sort of europe and the united states continuing with this forceful response to what are heinous atrocities being committed against civilians. >> well, they certainly are. they're horrific. they're depraved. this is something that vladimir

putin has decided the russian military machine will do, and so i couldn't agree more with speaker pelosi, as well as with general mccaffrey, that russia more than qualifies and has for many years because as general mccaffrey pointed out, the poisonings of russian dissidents and others outside of russia, as well as what they do inside, qualifies them to be a sponsor of terrorism. cuba is still on the list. >> right. >> cuba. if you look at what russia has done, certainly over the past ten weeks, but even before that, it more than exceeds the threshold for state sponsorship of terrorism identification, and that will trigger some additional sanctions and additional measures against russia that i think what we need to do is to put as much international pressure on russia as possible and as soon as possible. >> i want to show all of you president zelenskyy's comments today on mariupol, which there's -- there's some thought that it's getting cleaned up by

russian -- not civilians but civil servant types to, i don't know, showcase, perhaps, next week. let me show you president zelenskyy's comments on mariupol. >> translator: mariupol will never fall. i'm not talking about heroism or anything. the fighters, the army that we have, but there is nothing -- there is nothing there to fall apart. it is already devastated. there is no place. there is no structure. it is all destroyed completely. >> general mccaffrey, mariupol can't fall because it's already destroyed. in fact, when we show footage from mariupol, someone asked if it was black and white, why were you showing black and white footage? but that is what it looks like right now because of the dust and the ruin. you talked about aleppo and you talked about some of the hallmarks of russian war

strategy. it seems that even the russian victories aren't really victories at all. what do you make of where things will stand on monday, a big day in russia? >> well, one thing we have to understand is that defense of mariupol by the ukrainian military was simply phenomenal. it remind me in a way of bhatan during world war ii. they've sucked in huge numbers of russian combat forces, caused enormous casualties, given the ukrainian army time to re-equip, rearm, and fight off the russian interventions north of kyiv. so, it's something to be admired. the ukrainians will talk about that defense for a thousand years. another thought i would offer publicly is to the russian army, don't be in that parade in mariupol on the 9th of may. talk about a great target. you know, i sort of hope they do try something like that, because

zelenskyy will intervene and try and wreck their day in the sun. i also doubt they're going to have the city under their control by monday. so, i don't know. look, the ukrainians are just magnificent people. they have maintained a democratic institution. they're fighting for their freedom. we're helping them appropriately to include with intelligence, and by the way, just sort of to add to director brennan, we have incredible satellite systems, intercept systems, we can locate transmitters, and if you've got 25 transmitters in the same spot, it's a headquarters. the russians are talking insecure. they're not camouflaging. they're sort of amateur soldiers, and that's one of the reasons they're getting pounded and losing so many high-ranking people. >> ambassador taylor, we see snapshots from here. we understand what we understand because the three of you help us

contextualize it and we see president zelenskyy's appearances, but we don't always have a full appreciation of the scale of suffering and devastation. tell me what you're hearing from people you know in the country and maybe take us through the regions. it seems like everyone is on alert and dealing with some sort of trauma adjacent to national pride and determination. >> they are, nicole. and it is grim. i, again, have friends that are on the front line. they go back and forth between kyiv and izum, where there are battles taking place, which, by the way, he reports some real progress. the ukrainian military is making some real progress in these counteroffensives that are going after russian locations, russian units, cutting them off in some sense, in some cases, from their own supply lines, surrounding them and then moving in and pushing them back. so, there is that. however, your point about

suffering, the russians are using air strikes, and he even says these thermobaric weapons that are horrible against people and against soldiers, and the ukrainians are not able -- in the east, the ukrainians are not able to defend against air strikes and so thus the importance of this heavy artillery but also the importance of the anti-aircraft weapons that they need, because that is -- that is causing great damage to the ukrainian military in the east. >> it is a remarkable thing, a remarkable moment, and in this time, we spend most of the time on this show, as you all know, talking about the broken state of our politics, but probably a good thing for us and them that the politics around support for ukraine aren't quite as fraught. director brennan, i want to ask you one more question about support for ukraine. outside of the intelligence.

i see things on the cipher report and other sort of -- i won't call it obscure, but not on the front pages of this analysis of what putin's calculations might be about a nuclear weapon and whether to use one and to perhaps even look back at history and its historical use. can you just sort of calibrate the degree of anxiety that people have about that possibility for us right now? day 72. >> well, i think it certainly always has to be something that we are concerned about, and i know the biden administration is looking at what potential scenarios, in fact, could lead putin to use some type of nuclear weapon, whether it be tactical or something else. but at this point, i do believe that putin is trying to win this war with conventional means and not escalate to nuclear or chemical or one of the other types of weapons of mass destruction attacks. because he doesn't want to, i think, bring nato into this. with the sheer incompetence and the ineptitude of the russian forces, i think the last thing that vladimir putin wants to do is to engage with nato forces

that are qualitatively superior, far superior to russian forces, so again, i think, if he believes that this is, in fact, going to be a losing proposition, that's when i think we have to worry more that he may opt for some of these desperate measures, but at this point, i think what we see with mariupol and other areas in eastern and southern ukraine, i think he's going to try to continue to chip away with conventional military means against the ukrainian forces. >> director john brennan, ambassador william taylor, thank you so much, it's an honor to speak to both of you. general mccaffrey sticks around a little longer because whether we come back, we want to ask him about some stunning new revelations and accusations from former defense secretary mark esper that, you know him, twice-impeached disgraced ex-president proposed missile strikes against drug labs in mexico that he wouldn't tell anyone about. that really happened. plus, we'll meet two democratic state lawmakers on the front lines in fighting back

against an unprecedented wave of cruelty and far-right extremism. and the frightening prospect that your phone could reveal whether a woman has had or inquired about an abortion and could be used as evidence against women if roe vs. wade is overturned. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break.

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for those of us on planet earth that can still be shocked and horrified, this is for you. there's new reporting that confirms some of the most horrific and erratic behavior we've ever heard reported about the disgraced ex-president.

this batch is not on tape. this batch comes from his former defense secretary, mr. mark esper, who says that donald trump asked him at least twice in 2020 if the military could do this. quote, shoot missiles into mexico to destroy the drug labs, end quote. "the new york times'" maggie haberman reports this exchange taken from esper's new book which was vetted by the pentagon and reviewed by four-star generals for accuracy. nbc news has reached out to the ex-president's team for comment. quote, they don't have control of their own country, mr. esper recounts mr. trump saying. when esper raised various objections, mr. trump said we could, quote, just shoot some patriot missiles and take out the labs quietly, adding that no one would know it was us. trump said he would just say that the united states had not conducted this strike, esper recounts, writing that he would have thought it was a joke had he not been staring mr. trump in

the face. we're back with retired four-star general barry mccaffrey, who served as drug czar during the clinton administration. general mccaffrey, what is wrong with sending missiles that we deny sending into mexico? >> well, you know, i think it's going to turn out we owe a lot to secretary esper and general mark milley for keeping us inside the constitution, particularly during the last year of what in some ways is a gangster, low iq government. it's just astonishing. the two most important countries in the face of the united states are canada and mexico, in terms of economic prosperity, in terms of sensitivity to sovereignty issues. by the way, patriot missiles are anti-air missiles. that we would strike another democracy and lie about it is so comical and illegal, it's hard to know where to begin. trump also told esper, why

didn't -- and the chairman, why can't you shoot u.s. citizens protesting in the streets and shoot them in the legs or something? again, you know, when esper got fired by trump, and he put five surprising ideological types in charge of the pentagon, he was preparing the way for a coup against the u.s. government. >> well, and the reason he needed those people for the coup part of his presidency was, i mean, mark esper writes this. quote, he's an unprincipled person, who given his self-interest, should not be in a position of public service. it's something that john bolton writes in his book, bolton said trump's national security decisions were motivated by political self-interest. john kelly seemed to struggle mightily with the lack of any

idea that the generals were loyal to the country and the constitution, not an american president. what is the -- you know, i feel like we still just have the tip of the iceberg. what's under the surface in terms of what trump wanted from the military and how much strain he may have caused there? >> well, i think he never got inside the armed forces, basically, constant discussion about it. the armed forces are not extremist organizations in any way. they're not a battalion level and a marine infantry battalion, they're not at the four-star level, they're apolitical. they swear an oath to the constitution. they've been put in a military culture for years that says, whoever the american people elect, that's who we're supporting. and by the way, two civilians, the president of the united states and the secretary of defense, are the only people who give orders to the armed forces. not the generals. they are the ones that instruct the joint commanders on what to do. so when you had a president who

essentially was lawless and ignorant and impulsive, and didn't listen to expert advice from anyone, we were in trouble. you know, there was just no limit to the damage this man actually did to us in terms of wrecking our alliances in the international community, never mind this kind of illegal order directly to the secretary of defense, who he expected to carry it out. >> it's amazing. do you spend any time worrying about or thinking about what a second trump term would mean for the pentagon? >> well, i think it's a threat to our constitutional democracy and our freedoms if people of low character and ignorance end up in the white house and put the same caliber of women and men in key cabinet positions. we shouldn't kid ourselves that it can't happen here also.

so, the election's coming up. i'm not saying vote democrat, vote republican. vote for people of character or you'll get what you deserve in the government. >> wow. general barry mccaffrey, thank you very much for sticking around and spending more time with us. when we come back, two state lawmakers who stood up in the ugly fight against far-right extremism and republican fear mongering. their stories are next. m and re mongering. mongering. their stories are next ♪ this magic moment ♪ but heinz knows there's plenty of magic in all that chaos. ♪ so different and so new ♪ ♪ was like any other... ♪ and, we're back! it's time to see which chew provides the longest-lasting flea and tick protection. bravecto's the big winner. 12 weeks of powerful protection, nearly 3 times longer than any other chew. bravo, bravecto! bravo!

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i've been watching the news and watching these children who are here in these chambers, and they are here to raise their voices, and so we're going to see these kids -- i don't think y'all understand how much courage it takes for these children to show up every day. >> i am a straight white christian married suburban mom who knows that the very notion that learning about slavery or redlining or systemic racism somehow means that children are being taught to feel bad or hate themselves because they are white is absolute nonsense. >> powerful, heroic, timely, much-needed messages. we've played here, we've covered both of those speeches in the time that they happened. we focused on them here from two state senators who are now on the front lines for all of us,

fighting against the culture wars, the unceasing right-wing extremist agenda and the lies. florida's chevron jones on the school children who came to the capitol to protest that state's "don't say gay" bill that's now been signed into law and michigan's mallory's takedown of the alarmist smears and accusations by republicans to back their efforts against those protecting lgbtq rights. their messages made more urgent and resonant this week, news that the supreme court majority opinion draft likely to overturn abortion rights is a major sign that other fundamental, established privacy rights are now at risk, something speaker pelosi confirmed during this broadcasts. many americans rely on those rights, have come to assume they'd always be there, things like same-sex marriage. joining our coverage, florida state senator jones and michigan

state senator mallory mcmorrow. i will say, you are also here because you both made me hope -- you both gave me hope that things could be different and i want to start with you, senator jones, and i want to read you something my colleague wrote this week about the draft opinion. he said, until supreme court justice alito's leaked draft opinion was published monday, i didn't fully understand just how dependent my same-sex marriage is on a woman's right to choose an abortion. now, i do. and i'm terrified. the 6-3 conservative supreme court majority is packed with ideologues. how could it resist taken alito's radical thinking to its logical end. i wonder what your thoughts are this week. >> first of all, thank you so much, nicole, for having us. and i do share his concerns.

i also share the concern for a lot of americans to see the court and how that all of our rights are in limbo right now. we are seeing in the state legislatures all across the country is just what we're seeing now in our supreme court. it is the trying of our judicial system, from florida to texas to tennessee, they are pushing legislation to the supreme court to push back on the changing of the society that we are in right now. because america is going in a totally different direction. and because they cannot pass it outright, what they have done is what they are doing is not telling the truth to constituents within their states all for the sake of passing the legislation and pushing on our courts as we see right now. >> senator mcmorrow, do you have

in your head clear the why? i mean, most people, even bipartisan numbers, viewed -- viewed all of this as progress. what is your theory of the case of why this sudden frenetic legislating against the rights and frankly the dignity of people that don't fit their mold, i guess, of what america should revert back to? >> i mean, this is 50 years of attempts coming to roost all at once. and what we're seeing right now is we're all connected. this is extreme minority rule. these are supreme court justices that were appointed by presidents who didn't win the popular vote, and it relies on stoking energy by fear. it's convincing people that their problems are because of somebody else, and secretary pete buttigieg said it perfectly in a video that went around yesterday. if all you have is a hammer,

then everything looks like a culture war, so anybody who doesn't fit the mold is under attack right now to scapegoat and blame for the fact that healthcare costs are too high or the roads aren't fixed and it's just not true. it's much harder to govern than it is to scare people. >> you know, both of you managed to, in your posts, cut through what feel like intractable and sometimes, i won't say hopeless, but uphill climbs against a very organized, very energized, completely disinformed in a lot of instances opposition on the right. and i wonder what gives both of you hope and what your -- i mean, do you feel optimistic that this tide can be pushed back, that the culture wars can return back to any sort of fact-based negotiations for compromise? or do you think this is a new normal? you first, senator jones. >> no, one, i think we are

seeing it right now. i think our hope is in our young people. i think we should look at the young people in our high schools right now, because i know we think that they can't vote, but in four years, many of them will be at the voting booth. i had a conversation with a group of young people within the miramar teen advisory council. it was 13 of them. and they are very clear on what's happening across the country and within our state, and they can't wait to vote. but many of them are -- they have already started groups within their own schools to push back on the legislations that are being forced within our state right now. so, my bet is on the young people. >> and i wonder, the same question to you, senator mc mcmorrow, but do you worry about what happens while we're waiting for them to take over, what we do in the here and now? >> no. not at all. right here in michigan this week, we had a special election over on the west side of the state for a state house seat, and carol glanville, a democrat,

flipped the district that was a trump plus 14, i believe. deep, deep red district, on saying exactly this. that hate and targeting and extremism aren't welcome here in michigan, and then centering her campaign on getting out, talking to people, working, and reiterating our values. we love our communities. we love our family. we love our diversity. that's what our strength is. and i agree with senator jones. listen to our young people and then go out and do the work, and it's going to win. >> senator mcmorrow, we played your speech in its entirety, got a lot of attention because it was so emotional, it was so visceral, and it felt in some ways more real and more emotional than the kinds of things that sometimes come out of washington. and i wonder if you can both speak to or sort of offer any humble lessons learned in terms of the conversations coming out of official washington.

they sometimes feel detached from people's real lives. they sometimes feel less emotional than the -- what are usually amount to lies, but the attacks on the other side of the aisle. >> sure. i think that, you know -- >> i'm sorry. let me -- i'm not doing a good job traffic copping. let me ask you to speak first, senator mcmorrow, and then you, senator jones. >> absolutely. and it's so exciting every time i'm on with senator jones because i just want to reach out and hug him from michigan. look, i watch his speech, and vulnerability is a strength, and i think we see that with young legislators that, you know, we grew up, at least in college and beyond, with social media. there isn't a disconnect between who you are as a person and your job, and i think that that's what people are looking for, is to get to know us and who we are as people and we are not just legislators. we're people. we are friends and family members and community members, and i think that that is what

people are craving is, why aren't you as mad as i am? why aren't you as upset as i am? and if you can see that in the people that you elect to represent you, there's a connection there that is really, really powerful and motivating. >> that's such a good point, but it also argues, senator jones, for some generational diversity, which we don't always see out of washington. i wonder, your thoughts about this sort of -- i mean, i don't want to gloss over your first point either, this being vulnerable, i think, is what made both of your speeches jump out in terms of the crush of news that we were looking at both days and what you said really leaped out for that very reason. and i wonder, for you, senator jones, what is -- what is sort of the part of it, when you look at the response and your ability to talk to this next generation, reassure them that even in the face of these laws, the future will be better, what part of that could be instructive to

democratic party leaders? washington? >> i think it's very important to say, and just to copy cat off senator mcmorrow, who i love, and the same thing, hugs to you, but you have to be clear that we're not hypotheticals. there's no better thing to do than storytelling. telling your story of who you are, where you come from, because so often, republicans, they speak in these hypothetical states, not realizing that myself and others, we have families. we have children. we have real jobs. and i think my message to young people is clear. the fact that you don't have to be afraid to be honest and truthful of who you are. and you are not a hypothetical. you are someone who lives, walks, and breathes on this planet. you are loved, and everyone is rooting for you. that is the message that we, as elected officials, have to convey to our young people for them to stand up for themselves, especially to the bullies that

we're seeing right now, whether in washington or whether in our state legislatures. >> and we know -- and i would love to have both of you here at the table if your schedules ever permit. we know young people are in crisis and that you both make this about your constituents and about the future, it's so important, and it really inspired us. i'm grateful to both of you for what you said in the moment and for taking the time to talk to us about it. state senator shevrin jones and mallory mcmorrow, thank you so much. we want to tell you about a special program airing this weekend about extraordinary people who are making a big difference in the lives of others. it's called "inspiring america: the 2022 inspiration list." it airs tomorrow at 9:00 p.m. eastern on nbc and then over on msnbc, it's on at 10:00 p.m. eastern. when we come back, the very real concern that big tech and the gop could use data and internet history to help arrest women trying to obtain reproductive healthcare services. that frightening new reporting is next for us. stay with us. that frightening ng

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at ingrezza.com. as americans prepare for a world without the protections of roe vs. wade, one of the tools that could be used against them is their very own cell phones. earlier this week, a reporter from vice was able to purchase for only $160 location data showing information relating to visits to clinics that provide abortions, including data that, quote, shows where groups of

people visiting the locations came from, how long they stayed there, and where they went afterwards. with this aggregated location available to anybody on the market, customers could include anti-abortion vigilantes as well, our next guest writes, the leak of a sfrourt draft opinion proposing to overturn roe vs. wade raises a data privacy flash point. if abortion becomes criminal in some states, might a person's data trail be treated as evidence? joining our conversation, one of the reporters byline on that piece, tatum hunter. this is just a stunning layer of reporting you've done this week. you write, phone location information has been used by activist groups to target ads at people in abortion clinics to try to dissuade them. in 2017, prosecutors used internet searches for abortion drugs as evidence in a mississippi woman's trial for the death of her fetus.

in 2015, text messages about getting an abortion helped convict a woman of child neglect. in 2019, the period tracker got pushed back for sharing aggregate data on some users' familypushback from their employers. what i read from your reporting is this already happened, and if roe is overturned, there is a concern that it would be on overdrive. help us understand that. >> this is a really good example when people talk about this, it's a lot more than targeted advertising. because we don't have strong privacy legislation, once our personal data and even aggregated data about us hits that data economy, it's really tough for the average person, and in many cases, keep track of where it lands.

a data broker may collect huge amounts of data and sell it to whoever wants to pay. it's just incredibly difficult to know where it lands. >> are there ways to protect -- do women have any ability to protect themselves with their phones now, or is all of this short of any legislation or short of any protections, sort of the wild west? >> i think there is two prong to see that question. there is absolutely things that individuals can do to make themselves safer. legal experts told me this week that people don't have to hand over their phones or other devices to police. people can opt for encrypted messages if they text family or friends about personal decisions. however, these things are a lot to ask from people in their already busy lives. there are people, both advocates

and legislators, pushing for more protections about how apps can treat the data they receive from us, which would kind of take some of that burden off of the consumer. >> it was a really, really important piece of reporting, and i'm sure you'll stay on it. thank you so much, tatum hunter, for spending some time to talk to us about it. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. a quick break for us we'll be right back.

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britney greiner is still being accused of carrying hemp oil in her luggage. she is considered wrongfully detained. that means her case will be handled by the special presidential envoy for hostage affairs. there is a sign that the u.s. is ready to get more hands-on in its efforts to secure her release. in the meantime, all 12 nba teams will feature a decal on their courts with her initials and jersey number. we will be right back. an no canceling. (laughs) flexible cancellation.

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes for another week of shows. we're so grateful. "the beat with ari melber" starts right now. hi, ari. >> hi and welcome to "the beat with ari melber." i'm ari melber. giuliani may face a contempt vote. we'll get into that tonight. and ceos tout high prices. some of it may be legitimate, but some of it may be corporate greed. some executives caught on tape saying they can drive prices and blame inflation. we'll get into that. we begin right now