it is time for a man, a man, how are you doing, man? >> i am doing great, sam, it is great to see you, as always. i am always impressed by the ability you have to do everything at every hour of the day. enjoy the rest of your evening, my friend. >> i will try, thank you very much, man. >> take care. good evening to you at home and welcome to ayman, tonight. we will imagine a post roe america, and we are doing so

because we are about to enter the first part in american history where women and children will have fewer rights than their mothers and grandmothers had. women and united states might be breaking the law if they decide to end a pregnancy. i will speak with legal experts, activists and congressional democrats to understand what exactly lies ahead, and what is being done to protect the woman's right to choose in this country. plus, the far-right militia leader the try to call trump during the january six insurrection, and the kremlin propaganda campaign that is taking cues from american conspiracy theorists. i'm ayman, let's get started. this hour, we are going to have an honest conversation about abortion in america. it is important to this show that our viewers are armed with facts about abortion because we

can only have clarity around this complex issue when we, as a society, are actually informed. we will start by dispelling some of the common misconceptions about it. we can only have clarity around this complex issue when we are informed. we will start by dispelling some of those misconceptions, like the notion that abortion is not a common medical procedure. that is false. nearly one in four women in the united states will have an abortion by the age of 45. people who get abortions are doing so devoid motherhood, in fact the opposite. six in ten women who have had an abortion are already mothers. you might hear that women who have abortions often regret the decisions but, according to one poll, five years after having the procedure, more than 95% of women who've had an abortion stand by their decision. there are many reasons why women make that decision, including the inherent danger

that comes along with being pregnant in america. antiabortion advocates might have you believe that giving birth is always the safer option. but in the knighted states, carrying a pregnancy to term is 33 times riskier than having an abortion. roughly 700 women die each year as a result of pregnancy or delivery complications. black women are over three times more likely to die from a pregnancy related cause than white women. let's also set the record straight about when abortions are actually happening. a favorite scare tactic that we often hear from the right is to highlight so-called, late term abortions. the truth is that 90% of abortions have been in the first trimester. let's talk about the myth that abortion rights have skyrocketed since roe was decided. in fact, abortion rates are lower now then they were back

in 1973. here is the truth. there is no evidence that restricting abortion access we're deuces the number of abortions. but restricting access takes a moons ability to get a safe abortion. that is the difference. joining me now are joyce vance, a msnbc legal analyst and co-has of a podcast, and michelle goodwin, professor of law at the university of california and bourbon. a little snow and and talk about this possible decision. if roe falls, it would be a patchwork of standards varying state by state, some banning abortion outright, others severely limiting procedures, even expanding production as safe haven states. talk to me about the legal fight ahead and what we could see play out if in fact roe is overturned on a legal front? >> overturning roe does not

create a new national standard, it simply returns decisions to the states about what the law regarding abortion will be there. in many states, as you point now, there is a confusing patchwork will, not just about the pillars and different states, but also multiple laws and different states because a number of states that want to outlaw abortion have passed overlapping laws in an effort to narrow any misconceptions. you might have a bill that says life begins at conception -- the impact of this uncertainty inside states and across state lines is that it makes it more difficult for women to obtain abortions and other medical services. it means that doctors and people that could potentially be at risk of finding themselves prosecuted in states where these new laws criminalize abortions, will be this incentivized to help women and provide services, to take women to obtain services. this uncertainty is a

deliberate part of the process on camping down on women's rights. >> professor goodwin, the minute that were roe false, if it does in fact fall, there will be immediate consequences, according to estimates. if you look at michigan, a law that was last updated in 1931 and never repealed, it would actually make it a felony to have an abortion. that could carry a penalty of up to four years, even in the case of rape and incest. roe made these laws unenforceable. without that protection, what is that risk? do they come back to life or what happens afterwards? >> there is a lot of subjectivity here. there will be sex and gender profiling. as we already know and regard to race in policing, there is a lot of profiling. the same will take place in these instances. criminalization and civil punishment are what's next because those are the things that have already been taken

place, mostly against black and brown women. we could see evidence of that in the late 19 80s and late 1990s, were literally, there were black women being dragged out of hospitals in shackles and chains. there were people in mississippi, a 16-year-old girl who was charged with murder in mississippi, because she had a stillbirth. in south carolina, a woman was also charged with murder for having a stillbirth, the first person to be charged with murder, a black woman in her early 20s, because she had a stillbirth. what we see is what we have been seeing before, except that they were black and brown women, the canaries in the coal mine. now this will be expensive, and there will be a lot of policing because who will know which are the women who are trying to have an abortion? who are the people that are trying to aid or abet them in terms of terminating a pregnancy? we will see a level of chilling people behavior and seeking to

scare them, which is also a part of the tactics. this is part about making people feel uncomfortable, it is about scaring people, it is bucking people in their place. that means keeping women and girls in this place. that is what this is about. >> to that point, joyce, the tennessee governor just signed a bill that would impose more restrictions on abortion pills. these bills are regulated by the fda, which is a federal agency. what potential power do they have to protect access to medication abortions? >> this is such a smart question because it is a canary in the coal mine for a lot of issues that involve federalization of abortion, and also traveling across state lines. the short answer to your question is, what is legal is not whatever five justices on this newly-ultraconservative supreme court say is okay. will they permit tennessee to interfere in something that the fda has already said is safe?

will they say that you can regulate this sort of commerce within your borders? one would think that if you look at the issues and legal doctrine, which is not as clear as we might wanted to be in this area, that there would at least be a suggestion that states could not interfere. with this court, all hands are off. they have had special jurisprudence with abortion that has permitted them to do things that were really unthinkable. you will recall that we've discussed a lot, the texas law, which seems a little big quaint, like it's a prior generation of abortion restrictions that allowed these vigilante lawsuits to be brought to people that they had no connection with who saw abortions. that's not the court to go along with, it seemed, but they did. now we look at this tennessee law, and it is up to the supreme court. >> professor goodwin, let's shift to the long term consequences for a moment if we can. even before this leak decision,

republicans were actually floating the idea of a nationwide abortion ban after six weeks of pregnancy. if this were to happen, talk us through how enforcement would work? could states refused to comply? >> certainly, states could refused to comply because there are states like colorado, new york, california, etc, that have already established themselves as sanctuary states, or calling themselves that. they welcome women and girls from other states that have already restrictive abortion laws. the reality will be a bit of a mess. there is this question of whether federal trump state law, traditionally, that is what it has been for over 230 some odd years that we have had a supreme court. it has been clear that the supreme court is the supreme arbiter of the land. but we have seen in the last year that the supreme court is willing to turn the other way when it comes to a state actually challenging law that

has been put into place by the supreme court. that is what we saw in texas. roe v. wade, the law of the land, texas enacted sba which bans abortions after six weeks of pregnancy in most cases. there is no exceptions for rape or incest. that is something that should have been, right away, struck down by the united states supreme court. the court looked the other way. i also want to say that there is something that is a bit toothless with industry after opinion that was leaked. justice alito suggested that there are many other areas of privacy that would be safe and there are guardrails around them. but justice supreme court shadow docket and looking the other way in the texas case lets us know that that is not the case. we will see many other areas where states are challenging federal law through congress or challenging decisions that the supreme court has come up with. everything is at stake. one last matter, this is not just about a matter of legislators, we could be looking at local clerks deciding that they do not want

to issue a marriage license for a same-sex license couple. they want to issue a marriage license for an interest to a couple or for adoption. this is what's next because we have already seen it before. >> i am so glad you brought that up, what does decision. >> joyce vance, professor cohen thank you both for starting this. still ahead we'll effect midterms politically, i will speak to debbie dingell of michigan, just at the break, stay with us. michigan, just at the break, michigan, just at the break, stay (sighs wearily) here i'll take that! (excited yell) woo-hoo! ensure max protein. with thirty grams of protein, one gram of sugar, and nutrients to support immune health. does daily stress leave you feeling out of sync? new dove men stress-relief body wash... with a plant-based adaptogen,

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just say watchathon into your voice remote to watch now. judge schumer says that the senate will vote next week on a bill that would federally legalized abortions in the united states. here is the catch! it is almost certain to fail because it won't have enough republicans on board to reach the 60 votes needed to pass. what's worse is that democratic senators, like joe manchin and kristen sinema don't want to abolish the filibuster. time and time again, when our country is faced with the most pressing issues, some of them literally a matter of life and death, democratic senators are still reluctant to do away with this relic of the past. whether it is to save the lives of black people seeking criminal justice reform or the survival of the democracy by

protecting voting rights. even now, as we are seeing in realtime, the lives of women who could be denied safe reproductive rights. so long as democrats keep the filibuster intact of the issues and the rights that matter to your survive ability, and to the survive ability of the country's democracy might continue to be slowly chipped away by republicans. as democrats stand by and watch. with me now is democratic congresswoman debbie dingell of michigan. she is the co-chair of the democratic communication committee. thank you so much for speaking with us, your reaction to this leaked supreme court draft opinion. what do you make of it so far? when do you make of how the democrats have handled it? >> first of all we have to remember that it's a draft. and at the moment we still have the right to choose. we have got to remember that that -- i think that is a wake up call for a lot of people with --

they really did not believe when we talked about what the consequences could be, now you can see what it might really be. i think this is going to be one of many that will still matter in november. i think people have to get off of the sidelines. maybe people who thought, my vote doesn't matter. it doesn't count anyway. you can't make a difference. i think people are waking up and understanding that their vote does matter, it does have consequences. there are things happening in this country that are very concerning. >> i know the republicans, anyone who have been following these issues closely, they have made it clear for decades that the goal was to overturn roe v. wade. president trump spoke about this exhaustively. he talked about using roe as a litmus test as the nominees he was going to put on the supreme court. were democrats sleeping at the wheel all of these years? today not do enough to shore up roe v. wade when they could've had the chance? >> i think that there are a lot

of different ways that you could talk about it. i think the house, for sometime, we once again passed a bill that senator schumer bill which will be up at the senate. to try to put into statute roe v. wade. it's really about the women's way to choose, it's about the separation of church and state. i'm a traditionalist. i have to tell you that. i'm not gonna go back and read the federalist papers. but we are at a point where the minority is nominating. the minority's ruling. how do you protect minority rights? they have taken over! it is very, very, very concerning. next week, people will be put on record. they need to be put on record. i think senator schumer, while we have it on record we know that the votes aren't there, we brought up the supreme court justice nomination. saying, okay you can't

filibuster this one. i think we need to hold people accountable. we are letting the minority rule. and very key issues, including the separation of church and state. >> there is a new yougov poll that finds 47% of democrats overturning roe versus raid will make them more likely to vote in the midterms rather than 24% of republicans. politically speaking here, do you think this possible decision by the supreme court, overturning roe, will be a major factor in the midterms to mobilize and energize democrats. >> i think it will be one. i think we make a mistake, if you think it's gonna be the only issue. just as we have from the very beginning, it's gonna be about president biden. the democrats working hard to protect working class families. they did when they pass the american recovery act. when we had covid-19 under control. the question is going to be, several issues. this is going to energize a lot

of people. those who think, whatever can i make anyway? well, you show what happens when you stay home. when you don't think about who you are electing. i think we will work on all of these issues. i think there are people who have been angry, independents who are maybe, not just gonna turnout this time. these people are going to realize, elections have consequences. they need to be a part of this year's election. >> yes, and to your point, actually, i'm glad that you brought that up. it is not just going to be roe v. wade. we have the issues of inflation, at a four decade high. we have gas prices that are up. interest rates are up. obviously the war in ukraine. how are democrats campaigning on these issues? yet balancing the message on abortion so that it doesn't get lost with everything else that is happening? >> you have to talk about all of those issues. we have to talk about what the republican agenda is. they are fighting for billionaires. by the way, they are hurting

our democracy with their fearmongering, their spread of hate, quite frankly encouraging division in this country. which is really endangering our democracy. we, the war in ukraine, is a fight for democracy everywhere. we have to talk about that, and what is at stake. how there are people around the world trying to destroy democracy. we also have to understand and remember that it's the kitchen table issues. you'll remember, i told you in 2016 i told you donald trump could be elected because the democrats weren't talking about those issues. tree being the big issues. people are hurting! gas, michigan felt the surge the most over the last week. but it is being caused quite frankly by corporations that are gouging, through price gouging. they're playing $30 a barrel right now and what are they charging the consumer? i think we have really got to go after lowering those costs. we have to finally get this vote done on bringing our supply chain homes. we need chip production back in

this country. we have too many parking lots full of vehicles that can't be sold right now because we don't have chips. we have to talk about how we are trying to get work done, focused done, and continue to talk about how we've delivered. and we will continue to liver. one of those examples being the infrastructure bill. e ofall right congresswoman debe dingell from michigan. congresswoman, always a pleasure. thank you for making time with us tonight. coming up, the woman who will be most affected if roe is in fact overturned. >> affected if roe is i fact overturned. >> your projects done right . with angi, you can connect with and see ratings and reviews. and when you book and pay throug you're covered by our happiness

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out-of-state corporations wrote are now an online sportsificial flavorsbetting plantives. they call "solutions for the homeless". really? the corporations take 90 percent of the profits. and using loopholes they wrote, they'd take even more. the corporations' own promotional costs, like free bets, taken from the homeless funds. and they'd get a refund on their $100 million license fee, taken from homeless funds, too.

these guys didn't write a plan for the homeless. they wrote it for themselves. by targeting all the cells in your body? try tru niagen. life as we know it cannot exist without nad. as we age, nad can decrease by as much as 50%. tru niagen is proven to increase nad, to support heart and muscle health, and energy production that starts in your cells. address one of the root causes of aging with tru niagen, researched by the world's top scientific institutions. conversations about abortion rights often become heated political debates. disconnected from the very people they effect. tonight, i want to share a story from brenda hancock whose job it is to ask your patients to the last remaining abortion clinic in mississippi. lovingly called the pink house.

back in april 2017, brandon noticed there was a car that was rushing into the parking lot. so the couple that was inside of it, they had missed there a portion at the clinic due to a flat tire. durand told the man and woman that if they weren't seen that day, they would likely not be seen for weeks to come. the couple frantically looked through their car and followed brenda through a crowd of angry protesters outside before reaching the front door. the woman stopped and she asked, will they take $149. pulling out a lot of crumpled bills and coins. i only have $149? i'm $1 short. brenda stopped, she comforted the woman. she took $1 out of her own pocket. yeah, $1. that's what one woman feared would stand in the way of her getting a safe abortion. that couple had driven more than 150 miles from the mississippi delta, half of that journey on a spare tire, to

barely make that appointment. now the pink houses days could be numbered. the clinic's director is currently directing from a move to mississippi to mrs. -- planned parenthood clinics are also getting ready to ship resources to blue states where abortion rights are still protected. joining me now is kelly robinson, executive director of planned parenthood action plan. it's great to have you with us, kelly. your reaction to the lead draft decision of roe v. wade and what this means going forward? >> as an advocate it was challenging and it was scary. as a woman, as a person of color, as someone who sees people going to plan parent hood health centers every day it was terrifying! it was a reality. at the end of the day this draft opinion will go into effect. we are looking at 26 states swiftly moving to ban abortion access. 13 with trigger laws that could go into effect almost immediately. this could impact half the women of reproductive age in this country. this is a scary reality that

doesn't change the fact that people will still need access to health care. they will still need access to abortion care. it just puts more and more barriers in front of them getting it. >> so in this league draft, kelly, justice alito argues that abortion is not an economic issue. while saying that in the very same breath it is a modern-day eugenics. it certainly caught me by surprise, him using that terminology in describing it. what is your reaction to that? >> this is absolutely an economic issue! this is absolutely an issue of freedom, and of rights. in a league of opinion he also says an abortion is unprotected because it is not named in the constitution. that opens the door for so many of the rights that we have gained over the last 50 years, and actually the last hundred of years to be rollback. i'm talking about same-sex marriage, i'm talking about access to contraception. i'm talking about the ability to own our bodies of people of

color in this country. this bill is so dangerous it represents the first time that our courts will actually be rolling back constitutional rights. we have to stand up, we have to fight back, this is not just the tipping point for abortion access. this is tipping point for so many of our freedoms! >> if roe is overturned, kelly, how will it disproportionately affect people, certainly women of color? >> the first thing you have to remind folks is, as of right now abortion is legal. it is your right to obtain an abortion! planned parenthood houston is working all across the country to make sure, how to navigate this new environment. how to get access to care. we are increasing our telehealth capabilities. we are working with abortion access funds. however, we are also preparing for this very scary reality to come into fruition. those 26 states that i mentioned that will be moving quickly to ban abortion if and when the strap becomes rear,

those states are mostly in the midwest and south. mostly in places where you have large numbers of black folks, folks of color. this law would actually impact working people. their ability to get access to the care that they need. i think we have to be clear that at the end of the day if this goes into effect, the people who will experience at the most who are the people who are already in the margins of our health care system. we have to make sure that we are taking action. we also have to make sure that we are supporting practical funds, like abortion funds. helping people get the resources that they need to still access care. >> i want to ask you, really quickly, kelly, about what this means for the functioning of our democracy. the new york times noted this week that repealing access to abortion is the sign of a backsliding democracy. do you agree with that? do you see that as such? >> absolutely! i just have to say, again, we have never lost a constitutional right.

we have to sit with that, we have to wrestle with that. we also have to make our voices heard. the thing i also want to say is this is still a draft opinion. it does indicate that the dire reality of something we may face in the coming weeks and months. i am also reminded that, we have got to stand up and we have got to fight. within hours of this opinion coming out there were thousands of people on the steps of the supreme court here in d.c., within 24 hours hundreds of thousands of people turned out all across the country. on may 14th, that is going to be another day where we make our voices heard. we have a national day of action, all across the country. the goal of that is to ensure peoples outrage in the fear that folks are clearing thing is not for nothing. we are channeling it into the movement and we need to actually get elected decision-makers to do something different, to protect our rights. >> kelly robinson, kelly thank you so much for joining us.

i greatly appreciate your time and your insights this evening. coming up, why did the founder of the far-right oath keepers alicia try to call donald trump on january 6th of all days? ♪ ♪ i came, i saw, i conquered. (all): hail, caesar! pssst caesar! julius! dude, you should really check in with your team on ringcentral. i was thinking like... oh hi, caesar. we were just talking about you. ha ha ha. yeah, you should probably get out of here. not good. ♪ ♪ ♪ ringcentral ♪ trelegy for copd. ♪ birds flyin' high ♪

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surrounding the attempt to derail that certifying of lecture votes in the capitol was how and where the political effort might have overlapped with the violent one on that

day. while the capital was still under control of the rioters, stewart rhodes and other members of the right-wing group, oath keepers, gathered in a hotel room and placed a call to someone close to donald trump. william wilson was part of the group and explain the call as part of a plea agreement on a seditious conspiracy charge. because of wilson, we know wet roads tried to do. he tried to speak directly to donald trump, but was rejected by this mystery person. who this person is makes in a different amount of difference in determining possible links between the oath keepers and the trump white house, as well as what they knew about that day. democratic congressman noisy of illinois, part of the house oversight committee. congressman, great to see you again. thanks for making time with us tonight. from this oath keepers testimony we now know that the group wanted to urge trump to use them to stop the transfer of power. what do you make of that, your reaction?

>> i think it's shocking. i have two reactions. one is what did donald trump or someone in the wrong white house say in the way of encouragement to believe that donald trump would actually provide this assistance on january 6th to the oath keepers. secondly, who is that person who was so close and thought that he or she could actually influence the president to do with they asked it goes to show that the link it is to the white house are perhaps the greater than what we thought before interesting lee they also thought linkages throughout congress. those people could also relay some of their concerns and thoughts to the white house, to. >> do we expect all that to be made public in the hearing? the naming of specific members of congress?

>> i don't know. it partly depends on, you know, what's members of congress -- how they respond to the various inquiries that have been directed at them. we know in certain communications that for instance, one member of congress actually had such linkages to the oath keepers, that the oath keepers wanted to provide security to him on january 6th, during the insurrection. they call some of the data, quote unquote, critical data that needed to be protected. once that critical date was, i don't know. but it needs to be probed for sure. >> the january 6th committee did request interviews from three house republicans this week, ronny jackson, and the biggs, moe brooks. all three of them have declined. interesting lee the committee is interested from tech sent by the oath keepers. saying that congressman jackson needed protection because he

had, quote, critical data. this seems serious. as you are just elaborating on, it takes it into a slightly different direction. >> that's right, i mean, then it starts to look a little like coordination. exactly why was that data critical? what was a critical for? how did that relate to what's actually unfolded on january 6th. you >> should congressman jackson be subpoenaed by the committee? >> i think the committee is going to do whatever it has to do to get him to comply. really, at this juncture we have to figure out what's the hard truth are about january 6th. if we don't, then we are liable to have this repeated again. >> and of course the big news this week is the committee was set to interview rudy giuliani. he backed out after his last-minute request to record the interview, which was

denied. and obviously it seems as an outsider to me that this was some stunned by giuliani. he knew the committee would never allow a recording. what do you make of that development? should he be held in contempt? >> giuliani pulling a stunt! i am shocked, amen. >> yeah, exactly [laughs] >> giuliani will make himself available for any number of network interviews but he can't come before the committee. i think they should hold him in contempt. i think that would receive favorable consideration from the house, and it should be referred to the doj. some people might ask, is it a harmless request on his part? she recorded? he did not request the committee to record this particular interview. he wanted to record it himself. what he would've done with that recording is obviously anyone's death. he could've played it at a contest. he could've even manipulated it, we don't know. it was a transcribed interview,

it would've provided ample information. and context for what would have happened during that interview. >> i want to ask you about just the public perception of these hearings for a moment. the january 6th committee expected to start these hearings, the public ones, next month. are you, and perhaps the democrats, or any of you worry that, you know, these drifts, these leaks to news outlets could drain the publics interest? we could see something happened similar to the mueller report? when it was released, the public interest have been drained by how much leaks were coming out? >> i'm not concerned. i think what is going to be most interesting or fascinating is the testimony of the witnesses, amen. the witnesses are the ones who could bring a lot of detail to

what has happened in a way that you cannot necessarily understand reading a news article or a published report. and they would be subject to questions, which will obviously reveal new information, as well. i'm not worried about that. >> all right congressman man krishnamoorthi, always a pleasure. thank you so much for making the time with us tonight. >> thank you ayman. >> still ahead the kremlin propaganda campaign in ukraine is taking a page from the right wing conspiracy theorist right here in the u.s.. we will take a look at that when we come back. dontake a look at tha dontake a look at tha when nothing like a weekend in the woods. we come . do like screening for colon cancer... when caught in early stages it's more treatable. i'm cologuard.

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nbc news that intelligence shared by the u.s. help ukraine sink the rushing cruiser moskva, confirming this -- the most embarrassing brawl to vladimir putin's troubled invasion of ukraine. moscow has denied tax of a

missile attack, saying that the ship sank because of a fire. that is just one example of the kremlin's company and a campaign to hind inconvenience truth about this war. here is some startling new reporting. that propaganda campaign is using the same language that the far-right does to spread lies right here in the u.s.. the bombing of a maternity hospital in mariupol, russia dismissed that atrocity by lying about the bombing saying it was quote states provocation by ukraine. the bloody pregnant women evacuated from the rubble, all of them were crisis actors. a fascinating piece in the new york times highlights the connections between that language and it's used by the far-right, in the wake of the 2012 sandy hook shooting. buy more on this we're joined by the author of that piece, elizabeth williamson, a feature author for the times. this is a fascinating piece of analysis, elizabeth. you spent years in europe and russia as a reporter.

before we even get to the sandy hook connection here for a moment, is there something about the kremlin's messaging efforts around this war that feels different to you than, let's say, there are other propaganda campaigns? whether it involve operation in syria or elsewhere? >> well ayman, it is really interesting because for years russia has capitalized on gun violence in the united states as a kind of way to show that they are superior culture. they do a lot of propaganda broadcasts around incidents of gun violence in the u.s.. it was really striking to me to hear them use the exact language used in the aftermath of the sandy hoax shooting by conspiracy theorists. especially the use of the term, crisis actors. it was actually coined after the sandy hook shooting to describe the parents of the children murdered in that tragedy. >> as you mentioned, you are the author of the book, sandy

hook an american tragedy in the battle for truth. you have conspiracy theorists like alex jones who played a prominent role in an attempt to deny the truth around sandy hook. including the offensive claim that the tragedy was made up. the grieving families themselves were crisis actors. how did that phrase first come to be used by someone like alex jones? do we know the origins of that terminology? >> yes, actually, we do, ayman. it was a professor at florida atlanta university named james tracy who had looked online and seen a website for an organization that supplied quote, crisis actors, for example for first responders who were looking to test in a drill their response to a mass tragedy, a mass casualty event. these people would come in, they would pose as victims so they could practice triage and

emergency medical care, first aid. this professor then seized on this website and said, these people were all actors! they were supplied by a company to sandy hook, to the town of newtown and they acted in the crisis. whether they were parents, first responders, the staff at the school or officials. and so he betrayed them that way. that use of the term is extremely specific. that is what struck me when i started hearing about the bombing of the hospital at mariupol. >> yes and the interesting thing is the russian ambassador to the united states use that very same phrase, crisis actors, in relation to the maternity hospital bombing. i was just curious, what was your reaction when you heard that? seeing the same terminology being used by these officials? >> i mean, it is surprising,

kind of shocking, also really depressing! because, it kind of tells you what a round robin this is. this in misinformation, obviously russia has been interested for decades in spreading misinformation in this country in 2016, you know during the election,. during the campaign they were spreading misinformation online. especially on january 6th, and i talk about this in my book. around the 2020 election line you see people using terminology that russia used and then vice versa. so it sort of says to me, that's someone who is a correspondent in eastern europe and russia, among the people that we have to worry about meddling in the next election, not only the russians but people here in the united states. in 2020 they prove themselves more than willing to meddle in

the election ourselves. it no longer takes a powerful foreign adversary like russia to meddle in our elections. now it's just anybody with a cell phone who is willing to deploy these types of terms in these types of theories to call into question the results of an american election. >> yeah and can i go back to the election for a moment you're reporting traces the direct line from sandy hook to qanon to ultimately the january 6th insurrection. tactics employed by people like alex jones, who was there. there are no longer fringe. they are now embraced by mainstream conservatives. can you chart that passed for us? can you explain how the use of these tactics have spread? absolutely, so what you are seeing is the delivery methods, meaning social media, there is really no penalty for social

media companies themselves for carrying these lies about whether it is about sandy hook or pizzagate or qanon, the 2020 election. they are not ones to be sued for defamation. they are treated by law, section 2:30 in the telecommunications act, treat them as the pipeline through which these guys throw. they are now responsible, according to the law. then you had to go after the sources of these lies, the delivery method is really important, that is a constant, has been from sandy hook to january six. then you are also looking at what people get from this, this sense of superior knowledge, that they question all official narratives. finally, there is a political reason for this. donald trump identified this segment of americans who are deeply distrustful of all official narratives,

distrustful of the federal government, and they are a very important constituency for him. they helped put him over the top in 2016. he has always cater to them. he amplified and then they, intern, amplified what he said, particularly when it comes to the 2020 election. >> it becomes a dangerous loop of feedback, just themselves echoing the same conspiracy theories over and over. elizabeth williamson, thank you so much for your time, appreciate your insights. coming up, joe biden's message for ukrainian mothers. up, joe biden's message for ukrainian mothers.

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is on a four-day trip to eastern europe. her european ship has been timed around mother's day on sunday, an occasion that might feel vastly different for ukrainian mothers and children this year. she spoke about that with an exclusive interview with msnbc 's symone center. >> like most americans that watch the tv, we saw all the mothers gathering their children, kissing their husbands get by and then leaving the country. it was just so emotional, just so heart-wrenching. mother's day was coming up and i said to joe, i am going to go stand with the mothers of ukraine. they have to know that we are standing with them. they have been my inspiration because if they can be strong, than i