that 61% of all americans believe abortion should remain legal in most or all cases. compared to 37% believe that it should be illegal. that same poll found that one group of americans are in extreme opposition to the country's views on abortion, white evangelical protestants. among that, group 74% believe that abortion should be illegal in all or most cases. 24% think it should be legal. but that wasn't the case five decades ago. in response to the supreme court's decision, in roe v. wade, in 1973, the leader of the southern baptist convention at the time remarked, quote, i've always felt that it was only after a child was born and had a life separate from its mother that it became an individual person. end quote. the issue that the religious right with actually irate about at the time was the desegregation of schools and society. in the years before roe, america was in the midst of an era of racial turmoil as the civil rights movement was

underway. america was undergoing the process of desegregation, sparked in part by the supreme court's 1954 decision in brown v. board of education of topeka, kansas. that racial segregation and public schools was unconstitutional. it's a ruling that white conservative christians really didn't like. the religious right responded to brown by creating their own racially segregated private schools, some of which persist in the south to this day. but segregationists largely lost that battle. unable to stop the legal desegregation of america. but with the religious right could do to maintain political power and potency was to coalesce around a different single issue, and that issue was abortion. in the following years, they discovered that they could manufacture and then channel their moral outrage toward abortion. creating a new litmus test for conservative politicians to rally the base and to oust politicians from the center and the left. decades, later we are

continuing to see this play out. it is especially important this year, as midterm elections approach and roe v. wade appears likely to be overturned by the supreme court in the coming weeks. and the so-called culture wars rage on. stoking anti lgbtq rhetoric, for instance. references to god and christian believes are often invoked in these political instances, with some saying at right that they believe america is a christian nation. that is despite the fact that our constitution explicitly states, right there in the very first amendment from 1971 -- 1791, not 19th of the, one from 1791. quote, congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise there of. that's the first line of the first amendment to the united states constitution. it protects headphones from the establishment of a state religion. it's called the establishment cause because it prevents the

establishment of a state religion. and hence, protects religious freedom or freedom from any religion at all. most people think of the first amendment as being about freedom of the press, but even before it talks about the press the constitution covers religious freedom. but the modern republican party has been a lively hijacked by this anti-freedom movement. it's most powerful figure is a twice impeached insurrectionist ex president who has makeable used religion to bolster his political ambitions. and many of his followers are comfortable with wearing the boundaries between their political affiliation and their religion. america is constitutionally protected from becoming a theocracy. but sometimes that resembles one. the idea to channel moral outrage over abortion into a political strategy has actually worked and, nearly five decades later, that outrageous set to undo a fundamental right. despite the fact that the majority of americans want to preserve that particular

specific right. the religious right is playing the long game, it always has and it will not end there. joining me now is dr. athena butler, chair of religious studies at the university of pennsylvania and msnbc columnist and author of white evangelical racism, the politics of morality in america. doctor butler, thank you for being with us. i want to talk about this, because i think it's important for people to understand that, when abortion and abortion rights first became meaningful in america, this was not where we were. the religious right was not fully in opposition to it as clearly as they are today. it became a political tool to use, to get people out to vote, to fire up the bases. >> that is correct, ali. good morning. i think what's really important here is to realize that, at the point of roe v. wade, you don't even have a religious right. you have conservative religion. and many of those who are there right at the inception of roe are talking about not wanting

to be involved with abortion at all. i think it's very interesting that you showed w a criswell. criswell was an avowed racist and also was the pastor of billy graham. we need to make the historical connections here to set the stage for all of this. one of the things i think is important for people to know at this particular junction in our nation's history is that evangelicals have always used morality to put forth issues that will allow them to have political power. and so, if we look at abortion as being symptomatic of all these issues you would miss the point. the issue has always been for them, how do we get power? how do we assert ourselves in the nation's history based on a religious beliefs? and i think it's important to understand that they don't necessarily see this first amendment like we would. they see it as the way that god has created the constitution, and therefore, god was over manslaughter. >> but it's actually written to

the constitution. so, how does one conveniently miss that? justice alito, the other day, said there is no enumerated right to abortion in the constitution. because the word abortion doesn't appear in this little book. but the preservation of a country free of the establishment of a state religion is actually written in the book. >> exactly, exactly. but you know, toledo is also going back to the 13th century and other old laws that existed before the country was even formed. so, i think we have to look at this as a ploy in which to substantiate the claims that they are needing to take away the right to choice, the right to have an abortion because of their religious beliefs and the way that they see the world. so, if we take a step back and begin to look at how these things come about. it's not just abortion, it's about race, it's about gender. it's about all of these things. that they believe are the biblical ways to be, as opposed

to the laws of the land. then, we get to see a different picture about what they are saying and what they're doing. >> but for those of us who believe in the establishment clause, we wish no fight with people who are religious liberals, religious conservatives, atheists. one of the antidote to this? one doesn't want to be against people who are people of faith or religious or impose any views upon them. so, how do we solve them imposing views on the rest of society? >> this is very difficult. the way i like to talk about this is to say that we have ignored what's happened throughout all this time. we have ignored the fact that evangelicals have had very big lobbying organizations like focus on the family and others, family research council. that have come together. this is a very strong network. one of the things i think people don't even realize that it's not just about supreme court justices, it's about the over 200 justices and judges throughout america that were appointed during the trump

administration. and, so while people had scoffed about the religious right, evangelicals, however you want to turn them. what they have done is organize very well, the money is strong and powerful, that is second. and third, you all are playing catch-up. and that is a problem here. the networks that have been formed on the left or four liberals or even for moderates who believe in this need to start thinking about had a come together to shore up the systems. to shore up our democracy. because our democracy is in peril, and i don't think that people really understand how much that is the case these days. between this potential supreme court ruling, 16, everything else. all of these things are the set pieces that are happening. >> i hope people are starting to understand, if they don't already. we thank you for the work that you've done it for being with us this morning. and be a butler is the chair of religious studies at the university of pennsylvania, she's also the author of white evangelical racism, the politics of morality in

america. well, the women's health protection act, a bill that seeks to codify abortion rights into law, is not new. it was first introduced back in 2013. and it has been reintroduced every year since, until the house of rub representatives finally passed last september. it's been stalled in the senate ever since. that, is it was stalled until justice samuel aledo's draft opinion overturning roe v. wade, which was leaked last monday, jolted the senate to put it on the schedule. now, the senate is set to vote this coming wednesday. the democratic congresswoman judy chu of california is the lead sponsor of the women's health protection act and she joins me now. congresswoman chu, good morning to you, thank you for being with us again. you've been a set been at this for a while. you have taken the view and offer the view that this needs to be codified. it's going to be struck down by the courts at some point, we actually need this to become law. tell us where you are in your thinking in the process of this bill right now. >> clearly, we need roe v. wade

to be the law of the land. and that is why this bill would do. it would enshrine the protections of roe v. wade into law and also prevent states from passing laws that would chip away at this right. that is why i did introduce the women's health protection act back in 2013. it was because we could to see the laws passed by states and, at this, point there have been 500 of them chipping away at this right that we have had since 1973. and so, i was just thrilled that we were able to pass this in the house on a very strong vote. 218 to 2:11. it was actually the most supported pro-choice bill ever passed by the house in its history. but now, if that the senate. i was so glad that, immediately

after the draft decision, leader schumer decided to put it up for a vote. and that vote will take place on wednesday, and we can pass into law. >> there's a bell, it's in the senate. it's sponsored by, i believe, demi baldwin and richard blumenthal. there is some hope that there would be some republican support on this, probably coming from senators collins and murkowski. but they've put up a different bill now. have you talk to them? do you know what's going on with this different bill and how -- it seems like there are enough people who are on the right side of this, although there's still this awkward senate filibuster, but there's enough people. more than 50 senators, or at least 50 senators. will support where you're trying to do. how do you make sure that it's not 48 plus two? >> well, there isn't support as of now for the collins murkowski bill, yes. there are two women senators on the republican side who are

pro-choice. we hope that they will do the right thing and, on wednesday, vote for the women's health protection act. right now, we believe that we have 49 democrats who will vote to uphold this bill. and it's really important for the american public see where their senator stand on this issue. they need to see what their vote will be, and we certainly hope that, if senator collins and murkowski really believed that they were deceived by gorsuch and kavanaugh on the supreme court when they cast their votes, then it is important for them to make up for the deception by voting for wipha. >> democratic representative judy chu of california, we always appreciate your time. thank you for joining us this morning. >> thank you. >> still ahead, you may never

have heard of the summer of mercy in kansas, but it's an and to girl part of the battle for abortion rights in this country. we're going to get into the history and how it affects abortion access in the state of kansas and in the nation today. and, it is our very first nonfiction velshi banned but club. the new york times bestseller white frigidity author robin deangelo will assess her criticisms and the feces behind it. right after the, break we have an update on ukraine through the camera lens. photojournalist lindsey de dario joins us. dario joins us

i know there's conflicting information about dupuytren's contracture. i thought i couldn't get treatment yet? well, people may think that their contracture has to be severe to be treated, but it doesn't. if you can't lay your hand flat on the table, talk to a hand specialist. but what if i don't want surgery? well, then you should find a hand specialist certified to offer nonsurgical treatments. what's the next step? over the last 11 weeks, the visit findahandspecialist.com today to get started.

world has seen horrifying footage documenting the war in ukraine. however, if you have been able to capture the full scope, a motion, and told that the roar has had on the ukrainian people like -- journalist. have this image, lindsay dario has. a child sitting in the driver seat a vehicle, window shattered. the boy is one of millions of ukrainians who have fled their homes due to russia's war in a of aggression. -- is one of the leading photojournalist in the world, covering the war in ukraine right now. lindsey adarius in the donbas region of ukraine. she's a pulitzer prize-winning photojournalist for the new york times, covered a number of

-- and humanitarian crisis, including in sudan, syria, and many others. she has authored multiple books, including, of love and war, and it's what i do. lindsey, thank you for being with us this morning. i want to go through a number of your images, because this is just one of those situations where those images catcher more, sometimes, then people of us on like us on the ground. there is an image of a ukrainian soldier, that was on the front page of the new york times, reuniting with his wife in zaporizhzhia. she and her children have fled the city that they were in. this is a remarkable picture because the separation of families is one of the most poignant aspects of this war. >> yes. it is something i have been seeing since the beginning of the war. i was here for six weeks starting february 14th and in those early days of the war, in those early weeks of the war, and was a scene that i saw so many times. men putting their wives and

children on trains to flee west. this was a really interesting scene, because it was through zaporizhzhia. it was a soldier who had gone to find on the first day of war. he had not seen his family since those first few days. and they stayed in a top mask, which is now occupied by the russians. so they were finally able to flee and they made several attempts attempts to flee, and were finally able to reunite. >> lindsey, i want to show our viewers. it is of an elderly woman. you took this picture. it is around separation as well. it looks like a basement. i don't know shooting that as a shelter or bunker of some type. tell us about that. >> this is in the front line village of kharkiv, these towns are being hammered. they are on the lines between the russian and ukrainian forces. they are subject to constant shelling. this is an old woman. many of the older ladies and

men have decided to stay in the villages, because where else with a? go they thought they would stay the rest of their lives out in the villages in their homes. so this woman had decided to stay in kharkiv. when we walked and in your basement shelter, it was very bare. there was almost nothing there. she was just crying and crying, and saying that the shelling is constant. really just crying. yet she refused to leave, she was still there. >> as i met people, refugees in the western polling in hungary who had left their parents behind, their parents had said, leave me here to die. if i'm going to die, i am going to die in ukraine. i want to show you another picture that i have taken. a picture of troops. these are ukrainian troops inside the house. they were in an area in which there were drones over flying them. russian. drones ukrainian troops taking shelter. tell me the story here, and where are the residents of this house? >> i think that for journalists

and soldiers, one of the most terrifying aspects of this wars that it is an artillery war. it is a war fought from a distance. it is very hard to gauge where the front lines are. because essentially, there are frontlines everywhere. it is everywhere that artillery can reach. and that is something the 20, 6:27 miles distance. which is incredible. and when you have drones flying overhead, it means that they are gathering intelligence for russian forces. they are calling in artillery strikes on troops. so we arrived in the village, we will be heading out to the front line. this was a stopping point. we arrived in this village and immediately were whisked into this house. and they said, there is a russian drone overhead, get inside. if they see troops, if they see people on the ground, they will call in a strike. that strike that was called in was not very far from where we were taking cover. >> did you hear the drought? because often you can't see them. often they are too high to actually see.

the portions told you there was a drone in needed to go inside the house. >> yes. a lot of the time,. we have been spending on the front line is with ukrainian military. they have intelligence of course, if they can't see the door on the cells they're getting calls from their commander saying, there is a drone in your position, take cover. so it is as dangerous as it is to be out there it is helpful to be with ukrainian military, because they are getting realtime intelligence estimate is going on. some not always, but more often than not. >> as you have often said and right about in your book when people say okay we can't do this war coverage everywhere? part of it is because you are not often working with the protection of the government or soldiers. some as we are actually on the wrong end of that, as you have found yourself in your career. lindsey, please stay safe as always. lynsey addario pulitzer prize-winning for the journalist for the new york times. thank you so much. >> for decades, kansas has been

at the center of the abortion wars. from wichita in the 19 80s and 90s to the massive protests in 1991, to the assassination of dr. george taylor in 2009. a landmark state supreme court ruling in -- affirming abortion rights. now, a woman's right to choose might be up in the air once again in cannes kansas. i will speak to sharif davis, congresswoman, after this. sswoman, after this. were delayed when the new kid totaled his truck. timber... fortunately, they were covered by progressive, so it was a happy ending... for almost everyone. so it was a happy ending... andrea: this is the hardest thing we will probably ever have to go through. st. jude has given us transportation, treatment. to know that we don't have bills, they take every other stress off of your shoulders.

(dad allen) you know when you see a great deal on a phone, and then realize it's not for you? not at verizon. (mom allen) yep, they just gave us all a brand new iphone 13. (vo) now everyone can get a new iphone 13 on us on america's most reliable 5g network. for every customer. current, new, everyone. to show the love. out-of-state corporations wrote an online sports betting plan they call "solutions for the homeless".

really? the corporations take 90 percent of the profits. and using loopholes they wrote, they'd take even more. the corporations' own promotional costs, like free bets, taken from the homeless funds. and they'd get a refund on their $100 million license fee, taken from homeless funds, too. these guys didn't write a plan for the homeless. they wrote it for themselves.

does daily stress leave you feeling out of sync? new dove men stress-relief body wash... with a plant-based adaptogen, helps alleviate stress on skin. so you can get back in sync. new dove men. a restorative shower for body and mind. i did tell you before the break that we are going to talk to sharice davids of canvas, you're going to do that but we have some breaking news right now. about ukraine. i want to go to mike memoli, who is with the first lady at the border of ukraine. mike, what's the story? >> ali, some news for you right now. i'm traveling as part of the motorcade with the first lady.

we have spent the better part of the last two hours inside of ukraine, inside of ukraine in the city of -- a 50-minute drive from the slovakian border into ukraine. but just as a significant, ali, that the first lady of the united states traveled into a country that is actively at war with its neighbor. but significantly she met with the first lady of ukraine, elena zelenskyy. that significant in itself because we haven't seen elena zelenskyy in public since the invasion of ukraine began about two months ago. this is a part of the trip that it's been significant for the first lady. . all day today we have seen her working with refugees who fled ukraine. she got to sit down with the first lady, we will be able to have video momentarily. but let me describe to you what we saw. the first lady was seated across from the first lady of

ukraine, and she said that she wanted to come to ukraine. it was important to show the ukrainian people that this war has to stop, this war has been brutal and the people of the united states stand with the people of ukraine. the first lady of ukraine than thanked dr. biden, said it was a courageous act. we understand what it takes for the u.s. first lady to come here during a war, when military actions are taking place every day. arid sirens happening every day. she said we all feel your support, we feel the leadership of the united states president. she continued, it is mother's day, a symbolic day for us. we feel your support on such an important day. this is a rather significant moment. we've seen a number of high-level u.s. officials cross into ukraine. secretaries blinken and austin, meeting with president zelenskyy on april 24th. we saw speaker pelosi leading a congressional delegation and kyiv just last weekend. but now, the first lady of the

united states spending about two hours. and ali, as i'm talking to you now, we're going to the checkpoint back into slovakia. so, the first's visit to ukraine just concluding off. >> the first lady of the united states, having been on the border with ukraine, having been in slovakia, has now gone into ukraine and met with the first lady, olena so let's see. and is now traveling back into slovakia. our mike memoli is with. her remarkable news that the first lady of the united states entered a war zone. we've seen senior officials do that until now. , but to have the first lady go into ukraine is a strong symbol of the u.s.'s ally ship with ukraine in this war. mike memoli, please keep us closely posted. we'll stay here as you get more information as this develops. mike memoli for us. now in slovakia, but moments ago in ukraine with the first lady of the united states. i want to switch gears here.

if you understand the seriousness of the abortion were better than the people of kansas. back in the 19 80s and 90s, the state became ground zero for the abortion wars. and it all started with this man, dr. george taylor of wichita. he was the son of a local doctor. he would later in his own medical degree while serving in the military. after his parents were killed in the 1970s, taylor took over his father's health clinic in wichita. while working in the office, he discovered that his father had been providing women safe access to abortions since at least the 1940s. by the mid 1980s, about ten years after teller took over his father's medical practice, well past the roe v. wade supreme court decision, radical evangelicals had push the antiabortion into the mainstream. and the conservative anger over a woman's right to choose was white hot. in 1986, doctor tellers clinic was bombed by antiabortion activists. he moved his practice to a secret location the next day

and continue to see patients. in 1990, one protesters blockaded the clinic. they refused to let patients or workers inside. many were arrested in a massive protest the anti-abortion movement dubbed the summer of mercy. two days later, in antiabortion extremist shot doctor killer in his car, in the parking lot of the clinic. she later admitted to trying to kill the doctor for performing abortions. then, on sunday, may 31st, 2009, another antiabortion extremist walked into the reformation lutheran church and fatally shot the doctor while he was attending service. in 2009, doctor taylor was the owner of the only clinic offering abortion services in wichita. his murder effectively shut down abortions and most of the state for almost four years. since, then however, the state has made considerable progress when it comes to protecting a woman's right to choose. in 2016, the state determined that a woman's right to an

abortion was protected under the kansas state constitution. but today, in 2022, a woman's right to choose a slated to be on the ballot in kansas in august. this summer, cans ins will vote on an amendment that will determine if abortion is protected by the state constitution. joining me now is the democratic representative, sharice davids, of the great state of kansas. she represents kansas's third congressional district. she sits on both the pro-choice caucus and the caucus for black maternal health. congresswoman david's, good to see you again. it's always good to talk to you, but these are tough times. kansas is grand isle for a lot of things. it is central to the fight for abortion rights. it was actually central to the fight for segregation that activated the far-right religious movement throughout the 50s, into the 60s and 70s. until abortion actually became the thing that took over their fight. so, what happens in kansas that influence the rest of the country right now.

what is going to happen in kansas? >> yeah, this is, actually my heart of racing in the lead up to this conversation. because, certainly, kansas has been grounded zero and essentially the front line for so many different issues. dating back to the beginning of i restate coming into the union as a free state. and, so i think that right now, where in this situation where the kansas legislature has, essential, been barred from passing laws that place undue burdens on folks who are trying to seek access to the full range of reproductive health care. and this constitutional amendment that will be on the ballot in august is, again, where at the front lines of trying to make sure that, as we watch these other states, our neighboring states, oklahoma,

missouri, nearby states like texas, pass whatever very extreme laws that often we are seeing states introduce legislation that don't have exceptions for rape or incest, criminalizing things like ectopic pregnancies. we are at a place where we are about to decide in august whether or not our children have more rights or less rights than we do right now. i can't overstate the importance of this. >> how do you separate this, meaning reproductive rights, as well as other rights that could be imperiled if roe v. wade is overturned. because they're a lot of people who say that the idea that if abortion rights and roe v. wade isn't a tried in the constitution, a lot of other rights we have like a marriage and the right to marry people of another color, those are not in trying to the constitution. and you get people to separate all of that stuff about rights from their political or religious beliefs?

how do you get cans ins to say this is not about your religion, this is about your rights. >> i think, that first of, all we have to make sure that people recognize what is on the ballot in august. sometimes we are pushing back against false natives. roe v. wade in kansas, our ability to make our own health care decisions, to have that decision be between the person and their medical provider in their family, is something that is broadly supported. this is settled law we're talking about. i think that making sure that people are even aware that this is going to be on the august ballot. which, all adds, was intentionally done. because they wanted -- the kansas legislature has tried to introduce more extreme laws restricting access to not

just abortions but making the ability for people to make their own health care decisions that much more difficult. and so much of this depends on us making sure that people are aware that this is an issue that is going to be on the ballot. >> given that you are one of the first two native american women elected to congress, do you see the connection between the eradication or the erosion of women's reproductive rights and all of these other things? including gay marriage, including a series of other rights upon which we have come to depend and have been fighting for for the past few years? >> well, certainly i think that there is of course a connection between our ability to exercise the autonomy that we have over our own decisions and our own bodies and the --

not just the need to push back on policies that might restrict that, but also the importance of making sure that we are able to access the ballot box. that were able to reduce down the barriers to opportunity. the barriers to so many of the things that we all hope for or expect to be able to access in this country. >> cherice david, good to see you. thank you for being with us. representative sharif davis of kansas, we appreciate your time this morning. >> thank you so much. have a good day. >> still ahead, my conversation with robbyn deangelo, whose book seeks to explain racism to white people. up for our next meeting of the velshi banned book club. banned book club. policies to farmers, you could save yourself an average of seven hundred and thirty dollars. (customer) that's something. (burke) get a whole lot of something with farmers. ♪we are farmers.bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum♪

(johnny cash) ♪ i've traveled every road in this here land! ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ crossed the desert's bare, man. ♪ ♪ i've breathed the mountain air, man. ♪ ♪ of travel i've had my share, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere. ♪ ♪ i've been to: pittsburgh, parkersburg, ♪ ♪ gravelbourg, colorado, ♪ ♪ ellensburg, cedar city, dodge city, what a pity. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere. ♪ trelegy for copd. ♪ birds flyin' high ♪ ♪ you know how i feel ♪ (coughing) ♪ breeze driftin' on by ♪ ♪ you know how i feel ♪ copd may have gotten you here,

but you decide what's next. start a new day with trelegy. ♪ ...feelin' good ♪ no once-daily copd medicine has the power to treat copd in as many ways as trelegy. with three medicines in one inhaler, trelegy helps people breathe easier and improves lung function. it also helps prevent future flare-ups. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. do not take trelegy more than prescribed. trelegy may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vision changes, or eye pain occur. take a stand and start a new day with trelegy. ask your doctor about once-daily trelegy. and save at trelegy.com. my name is douglas. i'm a writer/director ask your doctor about once-daily trelegy. and i'm still working. in the kind of work that i do, you are surrounded by people who are all younger than you. i had to get help somewhere along the line

to stay competitive. i discovered prevagen. i started taking it and after a period of time, my memory improved. it was a game-changer for me. it's sunday, which means we've prevagen. healthier brain. better life.

another meeting of the velshi banned book club coming off. this week we will discuss the new york times bestseller, white fragility, by author robin diangelo. well going through our discussions from the banned book club members, we found a message which reminded me of one of my favorite msnbc colleagues, jonathan -- and the important work that he does. janice hebert wrote. and joining me staffer mentioned jonathan kaye part, host of the sunday show. i notice i think with your show, kate part, but i had to share it with you, because it is even more interceptions. >> well thank, you ali. i told people to read robin deangelis book, white fragility, because for me it was one of these most important books

still that i have read. and it is important because it is a white woman writing to white people about racism. she holds the mirror up to white people. she puts herself on the line to, talking about instances where she has fallen short in terms of confronting racism. it is an unflinching book. one of my favorite books that i have read. >> when he got coming up on the show? >> as usual it is a packed sunday. i'll be talking to amy klobuchar about the witness health protection a, and the possible overturning over overseas weight. with that looks like for the future of the country. also, congresswoman karen bass of california, congresswoman from -- come to the show to talk about the personal and political implications of the potential death of roe. we also have a panel of experts to discuss the reputation of the supreme court moving forward. color change president richard robinson will sound the alarm

on how lgbtq+ rights could be eroded. and marianne williamson, terrence ethan mayer, coren bell shun, we'll be live to sound off on the other sunday shows. as usual ali, don't want to miss that all coming up, at 10 am eastern on the sunday show. >> i absolutely will, not my friend. good to see you, as always. jonathan kaye part, right after val tree. to catch the sunday show which starts this morning, at 10 am eastern. as we talked about, we have robbyn diangelo, author white for jollity, coming up. you don't want to miss this. the velshi banned book club is next. next ♪ ♪ with a little help from cvs... ...you can support your nutrition, sleep, immune system, energy...even skin. and before you know it, healthier can look a lot like...you. ♪ ♪ cvs. healthier happens together.

wayfair has everything i need to make my home totally me. ♪ ♪ sometimes, i'm a homebody. can never have too many pillows! sometimes, i'm all business. a serious chair for a serious business woman! i'm always a mom- that is why you are smart and chose the durable fabric. perfect. i'm not a chef- and, don't mind if i do. but thanks to wayfair, i do love my kitchen. yes! ♪ wayfair you got just what i need. ♪ does daily stress leave you feeling out of sync? new dove men stress-relief body wash... with a plant-based adaptogen, helps alleviate stress on skin. so you can get back in sync. new dove men. a restorative shower for body and mind.

[♪♪] did you know you can address one of the root causes of aging new dove men. by targeting all the cells in your body? try tru niagen. life as we know it cannot exist without nad. as we age, nad can decrease by as much as 50%. tru niagen is proven to increase nad, to support heart and muscle health, and energy production that starts in your cells. address one of the root causes of aging with tru niagen, researched by the world's top scientific institutions. we have now obtained audio of

that january 10th phone call that leader mccarthy held with other top republicans, in which he in fact said that he is going to call trump and tell him that he must resign. >> the only discussion i would have with him is that i think it will, pass and it would be my recommendation you should resign. >> mr. mccarthy flooded and categorically denied that, today. he denied that he said he would tell trump to resign. he in fact said exactly that. >> all right, as promised, i got robin diangelo standing biontech. but we do have breaking news. the first lady of the united states is now back in silica. from her very short visit into ukraine. which she made with the first lady of ukraine. mike mentally as with the first lady, and he actually shot this video of the meeting between

them. that is a first lady of ukraine on the right. olena zelenskyy is her name. you don't see how much. and then you are the first lady of the united states, dr. jill biden on the left. they had a meeting just inside the border of ukraine. this was not a publicized plan, obviously, for the safety of the first lady. but there are been other u.s. officials who have gone into ukraine including the secretary of defense and the secretary of state. there been a number of european officials, including some heads of state, who have gone. and it is obviously a very serious concern if that stuff is found out ahead of time. you will remember that when joe biden was in poland, even then, the russians sent a missile to a military base that was just 16 miles from the polish border. there tends to be a response whenever high-profile western government leaders and officials, or someone like the first lady, goes into show their support for russia. russia likes to remind everybody when that happens,

that they are still around and in charge of the skies over ukraine right now. this is quite a dramatic development. the first lady of the united states and meeting with the first lady of ukraine. inside ukraine, this exclusive video brought to us by mike memoli. thank you mike memoli. i want to talk books. take you back in time, 20. 20 black lives matter was gaining steam and gripping the nation. america angered by the murder of george floyd, breonna taylor, and others. march is growing across the country, spreading to other cities around the world. a desperate need for way shortchange was crystallizing. while the book white frilly had already been out for two years at that point, it suddenly became a much read for americans. particularly for white americans, who were legitimately trying to understand their role in the problem, but more importantly what their role could be in the solution. but if you have not cracked

your copy of white fragility sense then or at all, let me reflect for a moment on its contents. the author robin diangelo discusses the phenomenon she describes a white peoples fragility. when what people are faced with the racial structures of our society, it might not be their fault. in their participation within those racist structures, they often respond with emotions such as anger, fear, and gills. and behaviors such as argumentation, silence, and withdraw from the stress inducing situation. and quote. throughout white, frilly robbyn diangelo gives multiple real life examples of racism and it's different, insidious form. which struck me in particular it was a conversation that diangelo had with a white friend. quote, she was telling me about a white couple that she knew. i just moved to new orleans and bought a house earlier. $25,000. of course, she immediately added, she also had to buy a gun.

enjoy is afraid to leave the house. i immediately knew they had bought a home in a black neighborhood. much of the book looks at understanding and destroying white fallacies, or as diangelo tells them, the pillars of whiteness that propel racism. one of those pillars is the concept of individualism. the idea that only individuals act in a racist way, not white people as a collective. this idea helps why people believe that even if racism exists, they are not personally a part of it. deangelo illustrates this with an anecdote about in the tally in american man who addressed her after a speaking engagement. quote, the first in line was a white man who explained he was italian american and italians were once considered blackened it discriminated against, so i don't think that what people experience racism too? that he could be in that overwhelmingly white room of coworkers and exempt himself from an examination of his whiteness because italians were once discriminated against isn't all too common example of individualism.

end quote. now, white fragility has been met with a lot of backlash, and of course calls for bands. that is how makes it onto the show. in one case, it was successfully banned from high school in florida. the teacher who signed the book is required reading says that she received calls from several parents, in what could be seen as a perfect example of white fragility. they argue that racism, is, quote, not an issue. the media over anti racist school curriculum, frequent sighting of student apparent discomfort to justify the beginning of a book. any book. that fits in perfectly with diangelo definition of white fragility. let's look at it again. quote. silence and withdrawal from a stress inducing situation. feeling uncomfortable? get rid of the book. we've explored this with two other velshi banned book club features, derrick martin, and all boys are. blue on another level, both

books grapple with race in america. but it is more than. that they disrupt and challenge, conflicted the comfortable worldview of the person who is reading it. that is the point of a book. reading books like a deer marlin, all boys aren't blue, and white fragility is uncomfortable. it is supposed to be. that, itself, is the point. the best change comes when we are made to feel uncomfortable, and then cause to examine the cause of that very discomfort. i'm thrilled to be joined. i'm joined by rob deangelo. she is spent decades working in critical analysis unwitnessed adiz, leading training seminars on the subject. she's currently an associate professor of education at the university of washington. she, is of course, best known for her new york times bestseller which spent 155 weeks on the bestseller list. robin, thank you, welcome. thanks for being with us today. we are privileged to talk to you. >> thank you for having me.

that was an excellent summary of the book! >> well, let's talk about some of the stuff that's in the book that i sort of talked around. including some of you right about which you called a pillar of whiteness, which you think is the framework of racism. this is what causes fragility, you say. what are these pillars? >> yeah, as somebody who is trained in sociology and in this course, when you listen to the kinds of evidence that white people will offer up to establish that they are not racist. as i listen to it, i thought to myself, so, what understanding of racism is this resting on that would cause this person to offer up this as evidence? what you'll notice is that most of the evidence white people offer up some form of proximity. i had a black roommate in college, i've traveled the world, i work in a very diverse environment, my kids play on a sport team with other kids.

it's always some form of proximity. so, if that's my evidence to distinguish me from a racist, then i guess a racist can't tolerate proximity. and when you think about it like that, i think you can see that that's rather absurd. because i can assure you that even and avowed racist can tolerate proximity. so, i got this image in my mind of a peer worried talk, it looks like it's just floating on the water but of course it's being propped up by these pillars. the good bad buy-in areas one of them, that simplistic idea that a racist is always an individual. which then, of course, allows me to say that one over there, now this one over here. who consciously does not like people based on race. if it's not conscious it doesn't count. and intentionally wants to hurt them. so, if it's not intentional it doesn't count either. i'm not sure you could come up with a more effective way to protect the system of racism

then that simplistic definition. which exempts mostly everybody, and guarantees defensiveness. >> how do you overcome it? and what have you seen in people who overcome it? in other words, the ability to say okay, i get, it you're not blaming me for all the problems. you're not saying that i am intentionally any of these things. but i am part of a structure of power. i am part of a structure of patriarchy, as we saw on the me too movement. i'm part of a structure of racism. and it's okay that i'm part of that structure. now that i recognize, it i can possibly do something about it. >> well, exactly. when you recognize that as a system or a structure that you are, in that you did not choose to be born into but that you were. it makes guilt moot. right now, rather than feeling bad about it, i can take responsibility. i didn't choose to be socialized into systemic racism but i was. and so, now, i can ask myself well, how is it manifest to get my life?

what can i do now that i'm here, to challenge it? and this is exactly why books like this are being banned, to prevent us from understanding it as a system. and protecting the status quo. >> one of the things you write about that reminds me of james baldwin's criticism is that you criticize progressives. a group you yourself identify as a member of. you criticize them in the book by saying aversive racism is a manifestation of racism, that well-intentioned people who see themselves of educated and progressive are more likely to exhibit. it exists under the surface of consciousness because it conflicts with consciously held beliefs of racial equality and justice. what do you mean about this, and why is that central to white fragility? >> because there is a tension between, on the one hand, what i have been trained not to see, but on the other hand which i really do know. so, i'm going to say something rather bold.

no one grows up in the society and doesn't know it's better to be white. right? i know that it's better to be white, i understood that from a very early age. we all get that message. of course, the impact of that message varies based on whether you are or are not white. but on the one, hand we understand that. but on the, other we can never admit that. there's all of these taboo's all-round talking openly about race for white people. there's this idea that that might mean that i am a bad person. and so, you have what ends up making us fairly irrational on this topic. this awareness that must be denied. and the more important it is to our identities, to see ourselves as not prejudiced and free of racism, and more defensive we're going to be, the more we're going to need to protect our self image and our worldview. >> >> ramy, robbyn d'angelo, we deangelo we can talk for can talk for hours hours about this about this. we are grateful. we are grateful for your for your time this time this, morning and morning, hopefully

we'll be able to continue this hopefully we will be able to continue this important conversation you've got yourself, until we are grateful for your time. robin diangelo is the author of white fragility. we have another author on deck, a special saturday edition of the velshi banned book club. rj palatka, author the bestselling children's book wonder, and white bird, a wonder story. white birds pacific lee is the coming late story of a white jewish girl coming of age in nazi germany. there are been calls to ban this in texas because it could lead to the skewing of a young child's life. we are gonna get into all of that next weekend. make sure the right into my story. get your comments and reactions. it is going to be a good. one you won't want to miss it. we'll catch you next saturday and sunday morning, 8 am to 10 am eastern. happy mother's day to all of you. the sunday show with jonathan kaye part is up next.