♪♪ ♪♪ >> hi there, everyone. happy monday. it's 4:00 in new york as the january select committee gets ready to blow the roof off the house in congressman jamie raskin's words and some of them in prime time next month the intense and largely secretive phase of its work is coming to an end. today politico pulls back the curtain of the sheer number of evidence the committee has gathered about the events leading up to and surrounding the insurrection. despite a concerted effort to stonewall the committee by many of donald trump's closest allies in the last administration,

quote, time and time again, the panel has managed to pierce the secrecy of trump's inner circle by turning to the aides entrusted of carrying out logistics with their bosses and that's according to interviews with their lawmakers and committee records. some of the select panel's most crucial information has come from trump world staffers who were often in the room or briefed on sensitive meetings even if they weren't central players themselves. it is a classic, investigative strategy that has paid dividends for select committee investigators, many of whom are seasoned former federal prosecutors, but new snapshots of donald trump's quest to hold on to power after he lost the 2020 election continue to emerge in the weeks leading up to the start of those public hearings. that includes a sweeping and comprehensive new piece of reporting out this morning in "the washington post" about the extraordinary measures donald trump's chief of staff mark meadows undertook to subvert the election report.

quote, a review of meadows' actions with reviewses depositions, congressional documents and recently published memoirs by key players and other material shows how meadows played a pivotal role in advancing trump's efforts to overturn the election. in doing so, meadows repeatedly violated legal guidance against trying to influence the justice department. that's according to a majority staff report from the senate judiciary committee. meadows granted those peddling theories about a stolen election. direct access to the oval office and personally connected some with the president. that's according to congressional reports and interviews of former white house officials. meadows pressed the justice department to investigate spurious and debunked claims including a bizarre theory that an italian operation changed votes in the u.s. it's an allegation a top justice department official called, quote, pure insanity, according

to email correspondence that was released by congressional investigators. meadows also pushed doj unsuccessfully to try to invalidate election results in six states through federal court action. this new profile which provides extraordinary narrative, re-telling all of meadows' actions in the run-up to january 6th, rests on the key question now before the 1/6 committee, quote, now depending on what meadows knows and when he shares it, his next steps determines when prosecutors seek to press charges against trump and others for the events leading up to the storming of the capitol. that is where we begin with the aforementioned guest. he authored that new piece of reporting that we read from. claire mccaskill and msnbc political analyst as well now and luke broadletter is here.

i want to start with this incredible piece that tells the whole story, as you said of these brand-new memoirs that each have a little piece of what is extraordinary in the white house of chief of staff. talk about your reporting. >> thanks for having me. mark meadows is a figure for investigation and the justice department is investigating whether to press charges on that. so while he turned over thousands of text messages in this story, there's a lot more that he would know. his testimony would be crucial to this investigation. so while the committee's talked to hundreds of witnesses, they want to talk to mark meadows. he is one of the few people with president trump in the room and he has a story and he's so far declined to tell that after deciding not too cooperate in december, and i put together

essentially a documentary, a narrative and putting together a lot of information that's been out there and recent information looking at the court filings and memos. just two weeks ago in a court filing the committee had said that meadows on the morning of january 6th in response to a member of congress which said pence could not certify the electors in certain states and meadows wrote back in the morning of january 6th. he didn't think it would happen and that's something very important to include because that's in his own words he was more of an observer according to the documents and the story that we write, he is an essential player in these events. >> michael, what swirls around -- as these questions around donald trump's culpability would be what he thought to be true and people who talked to donald trump right after the legislation suggests that he knew he'd lost and it was a grist for extensive legal

battle especially if you look at the recent donald trump performances. what does your reporting suggest mark meadows thought? did mark meadows believe all of this stuff? did he really not believe bill barr when he said mark, i look at this and there's no evidence of systemic fraud? >> great question. in his memoir "the chief's chief," mark meadows said the most important job he had as chief of staff was to tell president trump when he was wrong. i asked a lot of white house officials if they were aware of him doing that and they had not, and what i think is significant in the story is even after december 14th when the state certified their electors which would then be going to congress on january 6th. mark meadows met at the white house and met up with trump and members of congress who wanted to push this and then he tweeted that they were still looking into these allegations ever voter fraud.

this was after december 14th phone call and joe biden on victory and even after that very significant date and then i do you wanted how he was pushing the justice department and the officials and the acting attorney general and others to look into claims even in late december and early january. so he was playing a very central role. was he conveying at every point what trump wanted him to do. that's something that he would have to answer if he office your show, but clearly he was doing this and putting it out on twitter and emails that we now have access to and saying it in text messages that thanks to court filings as soon as two weeks ago. so luke, broadwater, i know for this reporting michael reached out to meadows with questions and comments and were aren't particularly forthcoming, but by far, some of the most valuable evidence that is at least public facing that the 1/6 committee is in possession of is the mark

meadows body of text messages. have you been able to piece together what happens to willager's document production of all of the text messaging from the president's son, the president's closest media allies. people like sean hannity and conduct that now has them facing criminal contempt of congress charges. >> yeah. it's a fascinating question why he initially cooperates and then stops, right? one thing i think that's important to note about that is he doesn't turn over all his text messages. many of the text messages that have come out have included explosive material that the we write about and the post has written about and you talk on the show, but there's a lot that he held back, right? and so that is going to be the material that mark meadows thought was the most sensitive that he thought was protected by

executive privilege and he never gives that to the committee in the first place. what mark meadows and his attorney were trying to do was give the committee enough material to keep them happy to avoid a contempt of congress charge and at the same time, president trump happened by not giving them too much. and then the book comes out, and there was some reporting that he was displeased that mark meadows was cooperating and he was writing this book and now all of a sudden he stops cooperating and refuses to give any more information to the committee, and he refuses to come in for an interview as promised, ditto. i talked with members who believe it was pressure from donald trump that got him to stop doing that. if you talk to meadows' attorney they will say they cooperated up to an extent and could not go

any further. i'm not exactly sure who to believe here, but there is more material that mark meadows has that he has not given it. >> if you look at who has come in in the last couple of weeks to the 1/6 committee and the president's son, and the president's son-in-law and the president's son's girlfriend, kimberly guilfoyle. the difference between those witnesses can testify to and mark meadows can testify to is mark meadows was the one with his hands on the control pulling the levers of government power. >> is there some concern that the conduct and is there any evidence that it differs from the son and daughter's evidence? >> ivanka trump and jared kushner and people like that are aren't necessarily in the middle to overturn the election whereas

mark meadows is. he starts meeting with members of congress very shortly after the election and start to plan out different paths to objects and different challenges to the election. they come up with a marketing strategy or a communication strategy for how we will talk about the election and spread the belief among the public that it was perhaps rigged and it delves into his trip to georgia and just how involved he was and the efforts there as they tried to overturn the results of the georgia election. so he has his hand in all different aspects, and he knows -- he's in the white house for meetings where sydney powell and rudy giuliani. he's meeting with people who have wild theories about

overturning the election and the conspiracy theories and mark meadows is such a central witness, and you can see why the january 6th committee wanted so badly and pressured him so much to try to come in. >> so, claire, here's that piece that luke was talking about from michael's reporting about the georgia trip. s trump continued to fixate on georgia at this time. meadows met brad raffensperger, whose office sought voting. raffensperger thought it was a prank and ignored it. meadows later called raffensperger's deputy after trump made 18 failed attempts to reach raffensperger through the main office line to set up a call with the president. those reports as he's running for re-election declined comment. there's also the reporting about bill barr getting ready to resign. he does this extraordinary interview with the associated press and says privately that

there was no systemic or broad-based fraud that would change the election and the reason for government to seize voting machines which some trump allies were encouraging on the same day as all of that. meadows attends a meeting with trump and gop lawmakers about vote fraud allegations and tweets this, quote, several members of congress just finished a meeting in the oval preparing to fight back against mounting evidence of voter fraud. stay tuned. we know that he knew that there was no evidence of voter fraud. we know that because bill barr told him. what do you think meadows' sort of body of conduct that could end up under scrutiny really is, claire? >> well, this article lays out very clearly the path for prosecution for his involvement in committing fraud and trying to object to and stop the vrp of

the united states and the vote. it's fascinating when it comes to bill barr because i think it's important, nicole, to remember to remind everyone who bill barr was in the white house. he is somebody who had done donald trump's bidding over and over again, busting norms in doj agreeing to take the job under circumstances where he knew the president was using his office inappropriately to leverage the fbi and the justice department. bill barr said take me, guy. i'll come and be your guy and i'll be your bag man and he was a reliable bag man for trump for most of his tenure as attorney general and he said in front of mark meadows and the president all of this stuff you're being told is bull -- [ expletive ]. sorry. that's what he wrote in the article. i'm not cursing on tv. >> it's not claire cussing on tv on a monday afternoon.

so bill barr says this, in front of the president and meadows and what does meadows do with that from the attorney general? their attorney general by any description that's reasonable, he decides to go ahead and try to steal an election for this president. so i think this is really something, and this committee has done a masterful job of connecting a lot of dots here and what they've done in the process that they've made a circle of those dots, mostly from aides and guess who is trapped in the middle of that circle? donald trump, michael pence and mark meadows. >> michael, you -- you give us the closest thing we have to sort of meadows' explanation as claire articulated here from his own memoir where he writes that he was unpersuaded by dozens of court losses. i think it was everyone but two, about six dozen and an array of federal and state officials telling him they'd failed to find widespread fraud and it was not looked at by the judges

adding that the supreme court was in the election results and i know i'm sort of wrapped around this axle of my own disbelief. the chief of staff for trump specifically, and this is chief of staff john kelly who had to endure people on both sides of the now infamous charlottes charlottesville kkk rally. as he shakes his head he knows he's on the wrong side of that and there was a portrait of kelly who emerged of understanding trump's disdain and not an ability to understanding an appropriate role from the u.s. military. all you get from meadows is zealous acquiescence for a coup plot. is there any evidence to the contrary? >> well, you know, if there is -- well, let me put it this

way, mark meadows was given the opportunity by me and the lawyer to comment and say there are cases where perhaps meadows might have dissuaded the president. he has not taken the opportunity. if you read the book, the book sort of stops in the middle of the day in january 6th where meadows says he didn't think trump said anything to incite the rioters and if anything, he was more subdued than usual and so you have to imagine what trump said to meadows in private and he goes into the things that happened later that as i recount there are all these people including the prd's of fox news, you have to do something in his memoir doesn't get into that and he basically stops the narrative after the talk by trump. so normally when you see a memoir, you are getting an inside look. he simply doesn't recount cases regarding the january 6th matter where he might have disagreed

with trump and he doesn't tell the rest of the story. maybe he just felt he couldn't because he was being asked about this in the committee and there's still an awful lot for meadows to explain to the committee and to the public about what happened and what he knows about what happened. >> you know what's amazing, too. i get to the end of your piece and the fact that he worked and you have ted cruz and he recants it on tucker carlson and he shows flashes of disgust. you saw those flashes of a normal human reaction from republicans. >> mark meadows worked in the u.s. capitol and nowhere is there any evidence that he was haunted or disgusted or pained or anguished by the sector of trump supporters naming the law enforcement officials who protected him and his family at the capitol. >> i don't think -- i don't think that far in fairness to

mark meadows, there is a quote in there where someone is saying he has to do something and mark meadows responds in a text, no, i'm pushing this, i agree. >> to get trump to respond? >> yeah. i'm sure that mark meadows was not pleased by what he was seeing in the capitol. the point here in the three weeds leading up to january 6th, mark meadows was out there time and again and in the lead of the story about mark meadows going down to georgia meeting with elections officials. i think it was the third week for december and after the certification and it ranges a phone call between trump and the official and this is the most call with brad raffensperger. so i think when you put it another day by day. so you get a good chronology and

his own words, emails, texts and other things. >> claire, i want to give you the last word on this point and there is one response and it's to luke's point and i don't have all of mark meadows' tax where i'm weeping into my sleeve and i have to go into the oval. we don't know what we don't know. that stipulated there has been no sort of public repudiation of donald trump's conduct that there's been no public offer to testify before the 1/6 committee and embodiment and what he has as a distinction is to have been a white house chief of staff at the time of the deadly insurrection against the building in which he worked for years before heading down to the other end of pennsylvania avenue. what is your sense of what the sort of coming months and weeks mean for him? what sort of questions he'll face again if he ends up under scrutiny by another group of investigators at doj?

>> well, first of all, doj has a referral for criminal contempt. >> right. >> and doj has had it and had it and had it and had it for weeks and weeks and weeks. now, i will say this, if his lawyer advised him to give out as men checks as he could in order to avoid a contempt filing. if the analysis that's going on, he cooperated to enough of an extent that he's avoiding a content and we can't convict him on content we're not going to try, then, you know, he needs to pay that lawyer a bonus because the lawyer is giving him good advice. we do not know what we do not know, i'll tell you what i do know, he heard from the top justice official that there was no fraud. i know he heard from judge after judge after judge, was there no basis to go forward with any

challenge to the election. none. and then he let those kooks in the oval office in the day before january 6th and i mean, he was letting in the mypillow guy, and he was shelling it in and giving him a cup of coffee. who does that? why wasn't he blocking the kooks from the office and that's the question i'd like him to answer. >> the questions. michael, i hope we're among the first at least in cable television to get to congratulate you and your post colleagues and will pulitzer prize for january 6th coverage. we have pored over all of it and we've learned a lot from it. "the washington post". >> that's my colleagues behind me. >> and the january 6th attack and thank you for joining us. thank you, luke, broadwater for joining us. your coverage, you know we've consumed every word of every sentence and every piece of what

your colleagues have reported and thank you to both of you. when we come back, the president of ukraine putting his own mark on russia's victory day with a powerful message for the world. up next, our friend and the former president adviser to president zelenskyy novikov, and u2's bono are helping ukrainians to keep up the fight and plus chuck schumer and the democrats went to put their colleagues on the record when it comes to reproductive rights in america. a big week ahead on capitol hill. how january 6th divided and distracted america may have opened opportunities for putin's brutal war against ukraine. all of those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. stay with us. use" continues after a quick break. stay with us

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>> in russia today, vladimir putin is attempting to use his country's annual victory day parade, the day that celebrates the soviet union's triumph over nazi germany to show off his country's military might filling the streets of moscow with nuclear-capable missiles, tanks and thousands of troops. it comes after russia has faced setback after setback in ukraine with a high casualty rate among troops and heavy equipment losses all while failing to gain a foothold they have pursued. joining us now is our friend igor novikov. igor, are you there? >> yep. i am. >> tell us what the other side of this looks like. i know it includes a trip from first lady -- dr. jill biden.

it includes an impromptu concert by bono in the subway. tell me what the reality is. pierce through this propaganda on the streets of moscow. >> well, look, we need to basically divide it into two separate subjects. so first of all, kyiv. what bono did and what the first lady did and what our friends are doing for us is incredibly important because we need that positive reinforcement and we need that sense of hope. we need that sense of being able to dream. so every little bit counts and it's like me waking up the message, and motivated the entire day, but yeah. it's incredibly important and heroic and the war isn't over and ukraine is being bombarded with missiles at the moment and, you know, coming here is something, you know, out of the

ordinary and we appreciate that. as far as russia is concerned, i have good news there because i've got the sense that putin blinked today. there were no ultimatums, there were no victories announced. nothing. so nothing new from them, and it looks like, you know, they don't know what to do. he's scared. you know, with the land sign i think it's ukraine's to win now. we can say with all certainty, so let's hope we get to that real victory day because we need it. >> well, you were always very -- i think diligent at keeping our coverage focused on these twin realities, right? that ukraine is prevailing on the battlefield and there's an extraordinary amount of ukrainians suffering economically with ptsd and obviously, the loss of life in the heinous civilian massacre in bucha and what we don't even know yet about what's happened

in mariupol. i believe dr. jill biden's interactions with some of the folks she's met is the closest person to our president to be able to be there and see how it has affected people. i'd like to -- we're having technical difficulties on our end, not your end. let's see if i can play some of dr. biden's visit. >> oh, she's a little shy. hello. how are you? hello. great to see you. >> my name is -- >> julia? how do you explain it to your kids? >> how do you explain the war to julia? >> it is very difficult how i explain. [ speaking foreign language ] >> it's difficult to explain.

i don't want -- i only say that it's war. i cannot explain. i cannot explain because i don't know myself. >> thank you. thank you for talking with me. thank you, julia. can i have a hug? thank you. thank you. happy mother's day. >> thank you. >> it's the same that we've put our finger on. how do you explain something to your children that you can't explain to yourself. it just felt like something that's really happening and sort of beaming through the television to us back here. does that -- does that capture as well as anything what kids and parents are grappling with there? >> it does capture it. it's far worse than you can imagine and one of the things is discussing when there's victory and when this whole horrible ordeal is over, and how do we keep those memories alive and

how do we make sure that the world gets to come and see for themselves what a terrible tragedy that was to make sure we never repeat it again and once again, for the first lady to come there and comfort ukrainian children is an act of humanity and it's one thing that shows that you're human. i pray for more humans rather than politicians running the show. by the way, you know, i need a positive story and i have a special one today. >> okay. >> it's actually a challenge. sometimes the things that i tell you get shown on fallon and colbert. so this is the one for them. >> okay. >> a little-known fact about me. i was the person behind the first counter disinformation center in ukraine. so i know a lot about how that world works and how fakes work and how russian propaganda works. one of the first things that you do is you fact check everything.

so today my team inspired me because they ran a fact check exercise on a victory day concert showing primetime on the tv channel and will i've actually sent you picture. so if you could show that picture now. basically to set the scene, yeah. this is half way through the show. this woman is singing an incredibly sad song and they're showing pictures of russia's veterans. they're commemorating the veterans. do they, really? if you look closely at this picture i encourage people what bonnie and clyde look like. they are showing a picture of bonnie and clyde as russia's veterans. they just shows you that their respect for history is as real as putin's speech. one thing is creating fakes. the whole other thing is when they don't even bother anymore. i mean, can you imagine?

it's the veterans and what do you do? you just google old pictures and show a picture of bonnie and clyde prime time on russia's tv commemorating them as world war ii veterans for russia. >> how did the picture of bonnie and clyde end up on the screen? >> well, my guess is that they basically said we need some pictures looking old from those days and some managers of that show basically did a google search from old pictures from the era and were two of the first ones they saw. so my challenge for colbert and fallon is to try and think of who else they could have shown, but haven't. other russian veterans. >> and the bigger point is that it's all b.s. it's all window dressing. >> yeah. i mean, russia basically, they've created a fake reality and now they don't even bother

anymore. they just need to show old pictures. people don't care and they don't even care what google is at this point. the other thing that russia is following well is the divide and conquer strategy. left, right, male, female. >> yeah. >> lgbt+, whatever, they're looking for those divides and they're trying to enforce those divides. so instead of uniting and they're trying to weaken you by getting you to fight amongst yourselves and you just need to make sure that you can resist that because, like, it's not going to end well for the world if russia gets its way in the information war. >> let me ask you about a story that i caught in this area. there was a tweet by a bbc journalist that said this, this morning the online russian tv page was hacked, on your hands is the blood of thousands of ukrainians and hundreds of murdered children, tv and the authorities are lying.

no to war. is that, to you, a sign that even within the sort of propaganda-riddled information ecosystem there are some people trying to punch out and get through and get the truth out? >> well, we don't know if it was that, it could have been ukrainians and it could have been somebody else and russian opposition doing it, but as somebody who understands how the information world works, let me tell you, it's not going to have a major effect because people are brain washed. we need to be working with the trust. so -- and you know, if, for example, bono as i keep saying metallica or somebody else addressed them and said okay, guys you need to know that this is wrong. that will have more of an effect. they know what's going on. they just approve. >> yeah. we never like to let you go without asking how you and your family are doing. tell us, you're going on the third month here.

i think it's day 74 -- 75? how are you and your wife and your young girls doing? >> the family is incredibly homesick. basically, we got stuck in europe because of the fuel crisis in ukraine and we're told by friends in kyiv, look, unless your name is bono, you're not getting any fuel. you can work remotely. so, but yeah, they really want to get home and to the pets and everyone, and hopefully they'll get their chance really soon, so -- >> igor, please stay safe. thank you so much for spending some time with us today. >> thank you. switching gears to our -- as igor just said divisive politics in america, for all of the debate and effort to try to protect women's reproductive rights, did republican leader mitch mcconnell signal where he and his party are heading out loud when it comes to a national

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every senator stands. they can't duck it anymore. the republicans have tried to duck it. >> majority leader chuck schumer at what is expected to be a symbolic attempt on wednesday for legislation to right abortion rights into law with a vote that will put every senator on the record in terms of telling all of us where they stand as democrats in the national, state and local levels warn their colleagues and voters this week about just how far republicans would likely push a supreme court ruling overturning roe, overturning federal abortion protections after minority leader mitch mcconnell said this, it was possible that his party would try to restriction abortion nationwide rather than stopping at a state's rights position. >> joining our conversation, fatima gossgraves and claire mccaskill. here's what i don't understand. you have two ostensibly pro-choice republican senators

and i understand you've got 48 votes in the senate. why not try to get something that will get 50 votes and pass it? >> because i don't think those two women senators that believe in abortion rights who would be willing to blow up the filibuster over it. i think -- >> why not? i mean, claire -- look at the numbers. you've got -- >> oh, listen. i don't want to defend them. i get what you're saying -- i'm just saying that's the reality. >> you have 64% who want roe to just stay as it is. they don't want more access, but they don't want less. you have 67% who oppose the federal law making abortion illegal and have they been engaged, do you know from your former colleagues that they've engaged collins and murkowski? if they still believe in abortion rights it would seem that they owe the rest of us something after their role in --

i mean, why not engage them on a law that they might be for? >> i think they have, and i think they are. susan has said out loud that she cannot support the bill as it passes the house, because it does not make exceptions on the basis of religions, catholic hospitals from performing any abortion and the very strong political argument because what has happened on the subject matter is the republicans have gone to the extreme. >> right. the supreme court has a draft opinion that doesn't reflect the majority of this country and in many states these right-wing legislators have gone so far that they're losing the vast majority of the citizens that are in those states and they're traveling down a path where it makes some forms of birth control illegal where it will

make in vitro fertilization very difficult and all of that is being done under the auspices of extremism and that's what the democrats have the opportunity to run against, extremism and i think it is a really good umbrella to go after the republicans in the fall. i don't think this show vote is going to make a difference, but who gets elected in november really will. >> i mean, this is not a talking point. fatima, this is what's happening. this is what republicans are doing today out loud. in mississippi, republican governor tate reeves is not ruling out banning contraception. banning contraception. in arizona, blake masters says he will, quote, vote only for federal judges who understand that roe and casey and griswald, again, contraception, were wrongly decideded. in louisiana they would classify abortion as murder, homicides.

women would face murder charges in texas. if roe fails they'll focus on preventing texans, they will track them, they will follow them and prosecute them. this is what's happening out loud. what do we think is on a white board inside the think tanks? if this isn't an emergency, if this isn't a time to say let's not have a show vote and let's get in a room and say what can get 50 votes, what is? >> you know, this is absolutely an emergency, it is an emergency because abortion has effectively been banned and it's an emergency because they're not limiting it to abortion and it is contraception and it is trying to keep people from leaving their states. it will go to criminalizing doctors. it will go to criminalizing patients. i don't know that there is a bottom. it is critical that every senator stand up right now and be on record on where they are

and if senators collins and murkowski are as alarmed as they say they are, they can get on record right away. >> i want to read a little bit from maureen dowd's piece from over the weekend because it articulates the aggression that the republicans are with less resistance than they've conceived, of the think tank conference rooms. as i was contemplating the comeback of the sartorrial symbol of american sduk, i got another news bulletin, strapping us into a time machine hurdling backward. the two simultaneous emails was the bizarre duality of sexuality and purgishness. the founding fathers would be less surprised that there is a popular musical about alexander hamilton that in the age of space travel, netflix and ivf,

the majority of the court is relying on a literal document from the agrarian 1870s. >> the republicans are trying to take the united states of america in 2022 is something, and this is the mainstream position in america. 64% and 67% agree that roe should stay as it is and that any law making abortion illegal should not pass. how do you harness those wide majorities and those wide swaths, not just of women, of women and men in america around a cohesive message? >> you know, the vast majority of people in this country, not just women, don't think that roe should be overturned. this is not a controversial idea. what's controversial is these

dramatic abortion bans and what's controversial is the idea that you can start going after contraception and you can start going after same-sex marriage and that 50 years of precedent doesn't matter. what matters is hundreds of years ago common law in england, people don't understand what happening right now and there is a thing you can do about it and congress can act. i think this administration needs to act. no one is off the hook in this moment, filibuster or not. >> we will talk about exactly what people can do. we have to sneak in a quick break. we'll ask both of you to stick through it and we'll pick this up on the other side. through it and we'll pick this up on the other side

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her republican opponents, who she says follow the mcconnell agenda and promise to help him criminalize abortion nationwide. we're back with fatima and claire. again, claire, i just want your thoughts on how democrats best use these broad majorities of american men and women, 64% of all americans want to keep roe as it is. 67% oppose any federal law to criminalize abortion, the message in that ad. what do you think? >> i think it's going to be powerful. i think mitch mcconnell may not admit it, but the talking points they sent out from republican senatorial campaign committee and from the governor's organization is really telling because what they're telling the republicans to do is to try to change the subject. they're telling republicans to talk about late-term abortion, as if that's the problem that this decision is going to solve. you know, and that's what

they're telling them. they know they are in the bad side of this argument, especially because the extreme views -- i mean, remember, nicole, ten years ago, i won a statewide election in missouri that is not a friendly state for people who believe in women's reproductive freedoms. i won it because a candidate spoke out saying that rape should not be an excuse to allow a woman to have an abortion. now, that is fundamental to the republican party. they do not believe in rape and incest exceptions. look around the country and the trigger laws that have been passed. most of them do not have rape and incest exceptions. that's the extremism is what they should campaign on. tomorrow or wednesday, when the vote occurs, it's going to be very sad to me that we won't have 50 votes, but it will be very motivating to a lot of voters, especially if the democrats message this right over the first time the court

has taken away a constitutional right that has been in place for over 50 years. >> and claire, how do you -- you know, i played gavin newsom's comments at the end of last week and his exasperation with his own party seemed to sort of intersect with what you're saying. we talk about 64% and 67% who want roe to stay as it is. you go up from there in terms of opposition to abortion bans that do not have exceptions for rape, incest, and the life of the mother, which lot of these state bans do not include. you're up in the 80s and your majorities and pluralities of republican women, at least, who oppose those statewide bans. how do you make sure the conversation keeps the republican proposals, which are extreme by any historic measure of the abortion debate in america over the last 50 years, how do you stay on that high ground as a democratic party message?

>> i think it's really important here to realize that these laws, many of them have been on the books for years. missouri's law has been around for several years, but nobody knows it's there because roe v. wade was in place. so, now, when roe drops, it's going to be in plain view, and the problem that these republicans candidates have, let's just take missouri for an example, all the republicans running for the senate have already said they support missouri's law with no exceptions, so now they're going to own that in the general election and it gives us an opportunity no missouri and many other states to win when we didn't have any chance, i don't think, of winning prior to this. >> it's such an important point in terms of not taking our eye off what's happening out in the state and the country. fatima goss graves, claire mccaskill, thank you so much. when we come back, how russia's war on ukraine could have looked if january 6th succeeded. on ukraine could have looked if january 6th succeeded.t all plastic is t

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imagine if trump had actually succeeded on january 6th. we'd be in a totally different place. vladimir putin would have just driven right into ukraine himself because he then would have seen the united states is completely finished from a leadership perspective, because we would be no different from any other country in the world that had just had a coup. >> imagine that. we'd be no different from any other country that had just had a coup. hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in new york. imagine if the coup attempt against our government, created by donald trump, inspired by him, launched by him, had been successful. what it would have meant not just here but for the rest of

the world's democracies, what message it would have sent to the world's authoritarian leaders. what you just heard described there by fiona hill, the former senior director for europe and russia at the national security council, is a frightening near reality. we came dangerously close to that happening. vladimir putin even more emboldened than what we see now by the demise of america's democracy, meaning that the war in ukraine, in her view, could have been even more brutal, even more unchecked if russia felt that the american experiment had finally failed. and it's actually that extreme division in the united states on full display on january 6th that some experts believe solidified vladimir putin's ambitions to go to war in ukraine, because even though trump had not succeeded, putin saw a window of opportunity in january 6th to strike while america wrestled with its own deep conflicts, and now, that invasion launched by russia is in its 75th day, a significant day where earlier the russian president spoke from moscow's red square to celebrate

this country's victory day, marks the defeat of the nazis in world war ii. putin defended his actions in ukraine and blamed the west but did not claim victory or call for a broader mobilization of russian troops. his comments may have not been as escalatory as many feared, but what was clear from his remarks was that russia's not backing down, which means ukraine and the west cannot and will not either. in a joint op-ed in the "washington post," congresswoman liz cheney, a republican, and jake, a democrat, implore america to stand with ukraine, saying this fight for democracy is so crucial to our survival as a nation that it goes beyond partisan politics. they write this. "democracies, though, draw succor from one another. in defending ukraine's democracy we stand up for our own. in combatting tyranny overseas, we strengthen our own at home. so yes, the partisan temperature is high. the parties disagree on plenty. but from deep red wyoming to deep blue massachusetts,

republicans and democrats must demonstrate to our allies and to our enemies alike that there are no half measures on the front lines of the free world. the united states must stand with the people of ukraine. they are not just fighting for their own freedom. they are fighting for ours too." and that's where we start the hour with some of our most favorite experts, reporters, and friends. former deputy national security advisor to president obama, ben rhodes, is here. also joining us, julia ioffe, washington correspondent for puck news. with us onset, daniel goldman, former assistant u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york. and former majority counsel during donald trump's first impeachment trial. lieutenant colonel alexander vindman will be along in a couple minutes and he'll jump right into our conversation. i want to start with you. that was fiona hill, obviously, at the beginning, making something that may not have been shocking to you because you had that window into her thinking as a witness in the impeachment but was still shocking to hear, that -- and it explains a lot. it explains this connective

tissue between vladimir putin's obsession with january 6th, some of america's hard right sort of putin fans in american media, like tucker carlson, and donald trump's ongoing reluctance to criticize him. it all clicks together in a haunting way. >> it does, and it really lifts up the importance of january 6th to what is going on right now, and you hear the former president talking so much about how, in his four years, russia never invaded ukraine, and now they are. but what fiona brings out, i think, so powerfully is the dislocation of the entire united states democracy, american democracy, from january 6th opened the door for vladimir putin to think that he could -- that now was the time, you know, to push in. the last time he had invaded was 2014. we're now in 2022. that's eight years. what has he been waiting for? clearly, he's had his eyes on

this. and so, that was the triggering moment for him, and fiona puts it so powerfully, which is to say, imagine if it had worked. then, you know, all of the defense that ukraine has right now, which has been led by united states intelligence, which has been led by the western world, gathering together, uniting together to fight for democracy, if we don't have a democracy, how can we lead? and that is really startling to hear her say that. >> and ben, i know that's how liz cheney sees january 6th, that it was an attack on our democracy and that our democracy is worth protecting from that national security perspective, but it's what makes it all the more disturbing that there are only two republicans who understand the national security implications of january 6th. >> yeah. i mean, if we don't have a strong democracy here in the united states, how on earth are we going to be relied on in a sustained way by other countries and other democracies around the world? just to make a couple points

about this. it continues to be the case that if you talk about something like the war in ukraine, we're going to have to sustain over not just months but years, i think, an effort to push back against the kind of aggression we see from russia to support the ukrainian government, and people in other countries and other capitals are -- want to know that we are a reliable partner, that we can be counted upon to be there, and if our democracy is in such chaos that we can't even move forward with the most basic transition of power in a peaceful way, i think it plants seeds of doubt that are continuing to be a challenge for the biden administration as they try to get europeans to stay in their commitments to sanctions and to support the ukrainians. i think more fundamentally, though, if you think about the idea that the united states may lose its own democracy in the continued regression that we're seeing around the world, where autocracy is on the rise in country after country, we are a part of a global fight between democracy and autocracy. and if we, as the largest and,

well, as the most powerful democracy, the oldest democracy -- india's the largest, but they too are teetering on the brink here -- if we can't hold on to democracy in this country, there is no hope for democracy in the face of people like xi jinping and vladimir putin. and that's something that every republican who tries to talk tough about russia should know but conveniently avoids when they try to take a tough stand on ukraine but try to duck the questions when it comes to january 6th. >> yeah. i mean, julia, what fiona, i think, puts into undeniable and uncomfortable reality for republicans is that everything about january 6th made everything about invading ukraine easier for vladimir putin. and i remember the first time i heard vladimir putin say ashli babbitt's name. i thought, why is he talking about ashli babbitt? talk about how january 6th is this -- it's almost like a record on repeat in russia. >> it was. now the record on repeat is a different record, and it's all

about ukraine and nazis on russian state tv, but it was, for a while, and i do want to push back a little bit on the idea that january 6th was the deciding moment for putin. i think there were many, many moments along the way in the last couple of years that encouraged him or gave him the false idea that he could go into ukraine, go further into ukraine, and achieve his insane, paranoid aims without meeting much resistance. it's not just january 6th, although vladimir putin today on red square took a shot at the idea of american exceptionalism, which he derided as hollow and hypocritical. but you also have to look at, you know, the first impeachment in which mr. goldman -- to which mr. goldman was privy. i mean, that first impeachment is where america learned about volodymyr zelenskyy, about ukraine, about all of these issues, right?

and look at where republicans stood on that. now -- who are now calling for more weapons, more aid, who are criticizing the biden administration from the right. just go back a little bit further and see what they said about ukraine then. and i think it showed all of it, the withdrawal from afghanistan, all of it, i think, showed vladimir putin that, a, the u.s. was not a reliable partner to its geopolitical partners, that it was -- we were so busy chasing our own tails internally that everybody could be manipulated every which way, especially the republican party, and so he kind of had a clear path to kyiv. >> i want to bring into our conversation retired army lieutenant colonel alexander vindman, the former director for european affairs for the national security council and now a board member with the renew democracy initiative. and you can jump right in. we started with your former colleague, fiona hill's comments about this sort of haunting

thought, provocative thought, that had january 6th succeeded the way trump wanted it to, had the coup been successful, it might have been an even more emboldening act for vladimir putin. i think julia's point and context is that he had a -- he was emboldened by a whole lot of things. but i want to hear your voice on this idea that our divisions here are a national security problem for the world's democracies. >> of course, you know, it's an interesting counterfactual to think through what would have happened if january 6th was successful, but we don't have to guess about the reality and how that massively emboldened vladimir putin. the fact that there was a january 6th in the united states, the fact that a president of the united states tried to retain power through a coup, through overturning an election, massively emboldened vladimir putin. it was probably one of the last

tick marks on his checklist of whether this was going to be a low-cost exercise or not, and i think the january 6th was also not coincidental that just weeks after, russia started to build up for this offensive. the ultimate decision wasn't made until months down the road, and of course, julia's absolutely correct that there were a whole host of factors. we looked the other way, way too often. we somehow sacrificed our values to short-term interests, looking the other way back in 2004 when the russians interfered in ukraine's -- in ukraine's revolution -- orange revolution, precipitating the orange revolution, and the georgian war. all these things are absolutely right. but january 6th should not be underestimated as a turning point. and neither should the president's interference in national security and attempting to extort an investigation. this was the substance of the first impeachment. now, i think we are in a different world. the fact is that vladimir putin and russia overplayed its hands.

authoritarianism overplayed its hands, and the weakness and the hollowness of authoritarianism as a model is laid bare. it's not just about russia and ukraine. it looks like russia's going to lose. i think that's an apparent statement now. what is the lesson for the rest of the world? russia -- the second most powerful military in the world lost to, at best, a regional power. china now needs to consider where it maybe have gone awry, whether cult of personality rule around president xi is the right way to go, or is it to go back to the deng model of committee rule that allowed china to flourish? and i think that's really what's at stake here. what's at stake is the democratic world has proven itself to be tough, resilient, at times distracted, at times naval gazing about how far -- what our issues are. we sometimes lack perspective

because of how successful we really are, but when, you know, when it really counts, we consolidate around our values, and we should never forget that central to our interests are our values. it provides that compass heading that allows us to stay on track to move forward both the united states towards a more perfect union and the world, frankly, to progress and i believe we've actually -- we've done what we needed to in large part, there's a lot left to do. putin's not down for the count. he didn't withdraw specifically because there's still a path to victory. he could use his air power. he could use his rockets and that's why we need to take the next steps in order to make sure ukraine wins but we're heading in that direction. >> let me show all of you this protest today. this is the russian ambassador -- russian envoy to poland, and this was the act of a protester at a war ceremony today. threw paint on him. i wonder, julia, if you can just

speak to the embarrassment, the grave embarrassment of being, i guess it's not a world that hates this war, but certainly the west does. how does this land with vladimir putin? >> so, the thing is that maybe the west -- the rest of the world doesn't mind and this is something that russian propaganda often brings up, that the world is not the west and that there are many other countries that support russia and don't like the u.s. but the world that putin does care about is the west. that's the table he's always wanted to sit at. and that's who he cares about. and it's funny, last night i was watching russian state propaganda so you don't have to, and there was a political talk show. >> thank you. >> a political talk show on the main kremlin kind of flagship propaganda channel, and they were just obsessing about this,

you know, why does the world hate us so much? why are people so angry at us? why are people yelling at russians on the street? in, you know, tblisi. like, well, you invaded and took 20% of their territory. i wonder why. but they're kind of obsessed, and it's -- part of it is just very russian, which is, like, we keep beating you over the head, but why don't you love us? we keep threatening you with nuclear weapons, but why don't you speak to us respectfully and with love and adoration? we don't get it. it's this kind of bully who wants to be loved. but they're also telling their population, right, this isn't just them rending their clothes and wondering why everybody hates them. they're telling their population that the world is against you, that the only person standing up for you and for russians everywhere in the world is vladimir putin. and that the world hates him for fighting naziism. that basically now the world, i.e., the west, which is the

only world that vladimir putin cares about, really, is nazi and that's why they're all against you. and so, the only person you can rely on is vladimir putin. >> you know, you could take out vladimir putin and the west and replace it with donald trump and "the new york times," and it was the same thing, even though fox news fawned all over donald trump every single night of his candidacy and presidency and still, and that, to julia's point, is what i watch so none of you have to. it's the same sort of psychological profile, right? i mean, donald trump had plenty of adoring fans. he had 30% to 40% of the country at any given time, and he had an entire, you know, highly watched cable network devoted to basically propaganda about his presidency. it wasn't enough. he was always tweeting at my colleagues, joe and mika, obsessed with "new york times'" maggie haberman. it is the same psychological profile that julia is describing about putin and the west. >> the degree of insecurity that donald trump has is stunning, and it's part of the reason why

he projects so much, and he accuses his opponents and antagonists of doing exactly what he does all the time. and his need for adoration from his cabinet members. i mean, it became a running joke that just like vladimir putin would have, he would sit there with his cabinet and they would go around the table and everyone would -- >> dear leader. >> exactly. would pay homage to the wonderful leader that donald trump is. and what we're now seeing coming out from folks in his administration, some degree of reputation laundering, but that they were, many of them, and they don't get, you know -- they don't get off the hook so easily, but many of them were just startled at the degree to which even three, four years into his presidency, he had no understanding of policy, of national security, of strategy. it was just all about him, primarily about his re-election,

and that that was his sole focus. and so what you see from donald trump is so similar to what you see from vladimir putin, and it may be, perhaps, why donald trump adores vladimir putin so much and why he catered to him, and why he decided -- he chose to believe vladimir putin over his own intelligence agencies in helsinki in 2018. it is so similar and so parallel, and the danger that we are in right now is that it's not just that there's 30% or 40% of the country that still supports him. it's that the vast majority of republicans who are elected officials are still bowing down to him. >> right. >> and that is the real danger that we have now going forward. >> yeah. and i mean, ben, just to keep it where dan has brought it, the most alarming thing about the tapes of kevin mccarthy talking to his leadership team of steve scalise and liz cheney, who was purged from it, isn't that he publicly said something totally

different and bowed down, as dan said. what's so alarming is that he saw january 6th the same way the five of us did. the same way liz cheney still does. the same way adam schiff and nancy pelosi -- the alarming thing is that he saw his own caucus as a threat to the safety of other members. the alarming thing is that he thought donald trump had to go and that the only problem with the 25th amendment, while totally appropriate, was that it would, quote, take too long. kevin mccarthy's quote. and that he had to go either business resignation which kevin mccarthy said, he probably won't do, 25th amendment was going to take too long, or impeachment, which he said he knew would pass, would pass the house. what's alarming to me is that we sort of flowed along. we can't be at, you know, 10 on the richter scale every day, but he remains the most probable nominee in the republican party for president in 2024. >> yeah. i mean, this is the core point. this isn't over yet, nicole. and to go all the way back to

your first question about what if january 6th succeeded? it reminds us there are real-world consequences. these aren't just games. and i think the most important substantive way is, donald trump pulls out of nato if january 6th succeeds. we know donald trump wanted to pull out of nato. that's the unraveling of the western alliance. that's the unraveling of democratic alliances and that's the open door that allows vladimir putin to just walk right into ukraine. and all of this is still on the table going forward, and we talk about this personal personality dynamic. we have more than enough information from the last five, six, seven years, culminating in january 6th, that donald trump is on this autocratic spectrum that we see around the world. what may seem like they begin with small steps and small compromises from leaders, will look the other way when he does this, we'll look the other way when he insults somebody or violates this norm or intrudes too much upon the national security or intelligence or law enforcement community of this country.

that got all the way to, we will look the other way when he attempts a violent insurrection to overturn the result of an election, and we won't take action in impeaching him that could have prevented him from running for president again, so we as a country are going to be right back in soup after the 2022 election and through the 2024 election. these are going to continue to be existential moments for american democracy, precisely because the leadership of the republican party, the elected officials of the republican party, the infrastructure of the republican party in this country cares more about winning and not getting on the wrong side of donald trump than they care about salvaging and strengthening the democratic institutions of this country, which matter not just to every single american but matter as we see every day in ukraine to people around the world who want to live in freedom. >> and the people telling us the story of just how dangerous he is are all calling from inside the house. no one's going anywhere. later in the hour, there are new revelations from inside the

house, from ex-defense secretary mark esper, about how obsessed the ex-president, donald trump, was at getting back at colonel vindman for speaking the truth about what he thought was a perfect phone call to ukrainian president zelenskyy. we will put colonel vindman on the spot about that. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. t. "deadline white house" continues "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. just like my nonna makes when she cooks! i don't cook. wait, what? it's a good thing he's so handsome. subway keeps refreshing and refre- (all): all hail, caesar! pssst julius! you should really check in with your team on ringcentral. oh hi caesar. we were just talking about you. yeah, you should probably get out of here. ♪ ringcentral ♪

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my city, and when they be in the camp, smile me like i his friend. i don't feel so. >> the last women, children, and elderly civilians who had been trapped in that steel plant in mariupol were evacuated to safety over the weekend as soldiers there say they will fight until the end to defend their city. the city that has been reduced to rubble also saw this weekend a parade of sorts of russian occupiers celebrating victory day. an advisor to mariupol's mayor said on social media the people have been lured there because of promises of food. meanwhile, the russian assault on eastern ukraine is ongoing. at least 60 people are feared dead after an air strike hit a school where people were sheltering. we're back with our panel. julia, these pictures today of vladimir putin walking alongside a very north korean-like

military parade stand in such stark contrast to president zelenskyy, who we've come to be very familiar with, wearing his -- either his t-shirt or his, you know, buttondown that he has on there, walking really through the streets of kyiv, which is a little more inhabited than it was at the beginning of the war. but how much does this sort of -- the west, again, fascination with and approval of and admiration of president zelenskyy really bother vladimir putin? >> i think it probably bothers him a lot. interesting to note, the street that zelenskyy's walking down was completely destroyed in world war ii and was rebuilt after world war ii and the thing that vladimir putin is now writing out of the narrative is that ukraine, which was part of the soviet union, was central to the defeat of nazis in world war ii, as were many, many ethnic

minorities who faced ethnic -- who faced discrimination and humiliation at the hands of the kind of ruling ethnic russian majority, which he now is -- that's who he's fighting for, and that's who he's ascribing victory to in world war ii. i think what's interesting in those two parades, if you can call them that, i mean, you have this solitary parade of zelenskyy and this kind of parade down red square, is, in some ways, the two different visions of the countries that are competing. that both have a soviet past and that are going in different directions. vladimir putin, you can tell, is so steeped -- he's so deeply soviet inside that this is what he considers beautiful and moving. this is what he thinks will get through and inspire his population to keep fighting. and will scare america. this is also very much aimed at us and scaring us.

but what you see in zelenskyy is this kind of new, modern vision. he's young. he is steeped in the traditions of hollywood and the west. he knows what gets through to the west and to younger people. he is much more modern and forward looking and western looking and in some ways, you have the two competing visions, but i just can't get over that street with the anti-tank -- what are they called in english? i'm thinking about this. my grandmother, who survived the war and went to university in kyiv, she was from western ukraine, when she arrived in 1947 for her first day of college, that street was still in ruins after world war ii. >> just amazing insights. dan goldman, now you're in my head with this profile, and if you look at the parades and you remember all the reporting about, after donald trump was in france with macron, he wanted a bastille day parade and i

remember all this incredible reporting in the "washington post" and "the new york times" that he wanted a parade that looked a lot more like we saw today in moscow than anything we saw in ukraine. and i mean, the parallels are almost infinite. >> yeah. i mean, he wanted a parade on july 4th, and it was right up until the very last, you know, very close to it that i think he finally relented as everyone told him that we're actually a democracy, we don't have military parades here. >> he wanted tanks. >> yeah. he wanted tanks. he wanted fighter jets flying over. he wanted the whole thing. and of course the expense is enormous, but even aside from that, the message of, you know, this guy showing off his power. look, we all know the story now. he sucked up to authoritarians, and he confronted and antagonized all of our democratic allies from merkel to macron to the entire nato alliance to the eu, and so, it's sort of an old story now, but

the stark contrast that we're seeing between zelenskyy and putin and the marching of the parades is exactly what is at stake here. it is authoritarianism vs. democracy. you know, we try to make this clear in 2019 with the impeachment when this was also what was going on, and alex made some really, really important points when he testified about how -- what a -- that the actual military support itself, the $400 million, is important, but it was the message to putin that was even more important, and the united states' unequivocal support for ukraine that was more important. and over the last two or three years, and i think part of why we are where we are under the trump regime, is that he diminished the united states' democratic reputation around the

world and it opened the door for authoritarians to push forward more and more, and it was only because of joe biden and the work that the biden administration has done to reunify nato and the western alliance that we have been able to supply ukraine, the whole western alliance, with what they need to push back russia. >> yeah, i mean -- >> i just think -- >> go ahead. >> sorry. you have, again, this contrast that we've seen throughout, right? you have zelenskyy in a flak jacket and a helmet, constantly visiting his troops on the front line, whereas vladimir putin has never once gone to the front, much the same way joseph stalin never once went to the front during world war ii, and then remember when donald trump went to france for a d-day commemoration? no, it was world war i commemoration, and it rained and he didn't go to the cemetery to honor american troops who had

fallen in world war i and it's that contrast between these strong men authoritarians who are deterred by rain and the democratic leaders who actually go down and go and meet with their troops in the trenches. >> well, and you know, ben, what is so haunting now to me is your comment that if re-elected, donald trump has made clear a commitment to withdraw from nato, and i don't know if it was that trip that julia's talking about, but i think it was his very first trip, i remember hearing from h.r. mcmaster, who was the national security advisor, dina powell was his democrat and at every stop they were trying to get him to reaffirm his commitment to defend an ally, to article v, something that took three or four public appearances to get him to do. i think the chiefs of staff, certainly before mark meadows, would say that among their greatest accomplishments, i think john bolton writes about this, was keeping trump in nato. it's not something we've stitched together, not something unearthed by the people who

investigated donald trump or the people who bravely testified to the private phone calls between america's allies like president zelenskyy. these are things he said out loud. donald trump's anti-democratic impulses are spoken. they're in the public record. what do you do with a republican party that's a-ok with that? >> i mean, i think the reality is that you have to connect these dots and make this big contrast between what does it actually mean to support democracy? because it impacts every other aspect of american policy. it impacts our foreign policy, you are national security policy, our domestic policy, our capacity to solve problems as a country. if we drift away from democracy and embrace this kind of authoritarianism, we're in an entirely different world and i think part of the problem is that this is a very live situation. we are not out of these woods yet. if you, again, just look at russia where i think we rightly have celebrated the degree to which the democratic world has rallied behind ukraine, that has definitely led to a battlefield stalemate in most places and the failure to take kyiv.

look, if russia is able to hold on to big chunks of eastern and southern ukraine, and mariupol connect those lands, and then just try to hunker down, terrorize the surrounding ukrainian civilian population, and bet on the fact that european countries will get tired of sanctions, what may look like a russian likely defeat now, over time, people like putin think they can wait out the united states. and they surely think that if we are driven by chaos, if donald trump gets back into office, the kind of unity we've seen and the forceful response will no longer be there. xi jinping of china takes an even longer view of these things, right? so i think we have to recognize that we could be back in 2025 with a president of the united states who likes those military parades, who doesn't like nato, who doesn't care much for democracy, who is an ideological reactionary, you know, fellow traveler of people like vladimir putin and others around the world who are against democracy.

we could be right back there. all these chips are still on the table, and the one thing that could help assure that we don't end up back there is if the republican party decides to separate from donald trump and they will not do. january 6th should have been the final wake-up call and if that didn't wake us up, i don't think we can have any confidence that something between now and election day 2024 is going to do that. >> no one's going anywhere, but in the old days, something like -- sorry. did i cut someone off? >> yeah. i just wanted to come in and maybe offer a different perspective. we sometimes overassess what -- we sometimes overassess what the u.s. role is in a lot of places. it's natural. i think there is something to be said about u.s. exceptionalism and we could accomplish a lot around the world but we should remember that this is not us that's playing a decisive role in this struggle for -- between good and evil, democracy and authoritarianism. it's the ukrainians. and almost nothing that we do at

this point will change the outcome. i think the fact is it's bigger than just the ukrainians thwarting russia's offensive. it's the fact that ukraine will roll back some of those gains. if you look at the military math, russia has broken itself on ukraine when they tried their northern offensive, when they tried coming in from all these directions. now they're trying a much more limited scope operation. for three weeks, they have attempted to break through. they have not succeeded and that is in a situation where before u.s. military equipment, advanced equipment started to pour into the country. russia is going to be on the losing side with regard to advanced equipment. of course their big advantages in terms of air power and rockets are still there and that's where my constant refrain that we need to be doing more is most relevant. but the ukrainians will make some gains back and russia cannot win this war. as a matter of fact, russia's high point was weeks behind it. before february 24th, russia was

a power. now it's in decline, and every day that it's in this war is going to get harder for it. >> and it's all been revealed, to your point, maybe they all knew that but now the world have seen that. we're going to ask colonel vindman about those revelations in the book about the lengths donald trump was willing to go to and the depths of his obsession with punishing colonel vindman for telling the truth in the first impeachment. that's next. r telling the truthn the first impeachment. the first impeachment. that's next. we wouldn't go.. with our divorce and.... great divorce guys. yeah... search 100s of travel sites at once. kayak. search one and done.

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dan goldman aptly called it reputation laundering. we'll go with selling books as well. but among the new information gleaned from former defense secretary mark esper's new effort at all of that is donald trump's fixation on punishing colonel vindman. "over the weeks leading into march and then april, the president asked me a couple of times about vindman. quote, when will army kick him out, he would say. it was surprising how animated one army lieutenant colonel was able to make the leader of the free world. i never understood it. the president would then follow up his questions with a long recounting of how vindman lied about my perfect phone call, that he was a never trumper, and that he was very arrogant and insubordinate." we're back with retired army lieutenant colonel alexander vindman and the rest of the

panel. this might not have been a surprise for me, but it certainly puts it all back into public view. what are your thoughts? >> well, i'm shocked, frankly. i don't know why the president would be so animated, but my wife tells me i do the same thing to her sometimes, so i guess there's something to that. you know, it's -- it is -- i think it's amazing to see the president maybe respond to reflections of everything he might not be. i try to be candid. i try to be forthright, truthful. i try to think about my duties and my obligations, the army values, selfless service. it's everything that trump is not, and i think that reflection, the fact that i was challenging him, is probably what drove him to madness in certain regards, and it's okay. i'm okay living in his head and toying with his mind. it doesn't bother me at all. he's probably going to, you

know, break some glasses here later on today when he sees this interview. you know, but i don't know. this is -- to me, this is, you know, this is kind of a side show. this is about selling books at this point. it's about reputation laundering. i have an issue with, frankly, the abrogation of responsibility. in the military, a uniformed service member has an absolute obligation to disobey illegal orders. there's also an obligation to report fraud, waste, and abuse, so clearly the president's actions on multiple occasions, including instructing the military to potentially fire on peaceful citizens, that's abuse, and the template for me was clearly, i reported my -- the president's wrongdoing, resulting in the impeachment. it worked its way through od&i, worked its way to congress. it's an abrogation of responsibility to not report the president's abuses. if it's not explicit, it's

absolutely implicit. part of the duty to disobey an order is also to report it for oversight and that's the part that i have a hard time understanding how so many people in senior positions didn't do that. >> are you surprised -- >> and maybe on a slightly -- >> go ahead. keep going. >> i just want to say, you know, this notion that this individual could somehow be viable in 2024, i find it a bit farfetched. i mean, to a certain extent, it's the democrats' election to lose, both in 2022 and 2024. they have all of the advantages. they've done -- they've kept unemployment down to 3.8%. they've addressed issues -- kitchen table issues for american families. one part that they're missing is messaging. they are just absolutely a basket case in terms of messaging their successes. the republicans could repeat the same word ten times, and even if you don't believe them by the

first several times, you start to come around. this is the shortfall. it's democrats' election to lose. i find it shocking that the independents and the democrats, when they come to vote in 2022, will vote for a failed party bereft of ideas rather than people that are actually offering some reasonable ideas and certainly by 2024, the president, you know, he will have his 30%, but he can't go any further. he might get through primaries, but general election, maybe i'm just an optimist. i don't believe he's viable. >> if you hadn't been -- if you hadn't left over all of this, would you still be serving? in the government, colonel vindman? >> yeah. i think so. i remember, actually, at one point, while i was on the national security council as the director, i weighed my options and recognized that there were a lot of opportunities to move on from that lofty position to do something else. i mean, lieutenant colonel might not be -- it's middle

management, but director of the national security council is a serious position. but as i weighed what i wanted to do, i determined that i think i could do more good in the military. i thought i could continue to advise senior military leadership and political leadership on how to deal with the russia challenge. and the reason i ended up leaving is because i just found myself to be a pariah, radioactive. at no point did secretary esper or mccarthy, the secretary of the army at the time, or senior leadership say, hey, you're fine. just hold on. you'll make it through. i had no idea about any support that may have resided with these senior leaders and of course i was aware, under the fact that they were under great pressure. i knew that mark meadows was berating secretary esper to fire me and things of that nature, but not having the other side of the equation, i wasn't going to take -- collect a paycheck and serve some place that's

irrelevant just to collect a paycheck. i thought i could do more good outside and continue to advance national security issues, try to advocate for values and advocate for public service and so forth. that's what i chose to do. >> i want to get dan goldman in on this, who is a unique tie to the end of time with the truth that you told and the price that you paid for it. i have to sneak in a quick break. i'm going to ask all of you to stick around. we'll be right back. sfloechl g to ask all of you to stick around we'll be right back. sfloechl for investors who can navigate this landscape, leveraging gold, a strategic and sustainable asset...

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everybody's back. you have this bond, dan goldman, as one of the people that introduced the public to colonel vindman's testimony about the call. >> yeah, and what is so striking to me is -- and why i think secretary esper's book -- at least the excerpts that we've seen just sort of falls flat is colonel vindman was subpoenaed to testify before congress as a government official. he of course -- anybody -- everybody's obligated to, buts a government official you could be fired for not adhering to a subpoena to testify before congress. he went and testified and toll the truth. that is what our rule of law is based on is that everybody goes, they tell the truth, and that's

how we ferret out and that's how the law ultimately prevails. then he gets death threats. his family is in jeopardy. he has the president of the united states fixated on him for some unknown reason. and where is secretary esper to defend his own official from these inappropriate, improper attacks? it reminds me of secretary pompeo with masha yovanovitch, the secretary of ukraine. where was he to defend her, an incredibly decorated and spectacular -- by all accounts, spectacular diplomat for 30 years? where is secretary pompeo to stand up to donald trump and say, you're not going retaliate against these people? they were nowhere. i'm happy to see that alex is out there now doing so much good, but he got the rawest deal you could get, as did masha, as did michael atkinson, the

inspector general for the intelligence community, who did exactly what he was required to do and also upheld his duty to the rule of law. and where was anybody to defend these people in the trump administration? they were nowhere to be found. and so it really irritates me that esper is trying to put this all on trump. where were you to defend vindman? nowhere. >> whose job is it to tie all this together? trump was impeached for withholding military aid for ukraine, our ally who's at war, fighting valiantly, but at war with russia, america's adversary. who ties to republican failures to convict him there to what's happening on the ground in ukraine? >> remaining question as to whether or not -- the democratic party has to do it. it will fall to democrats and citizens, really, to be tie

together these pieces for people, because you know, this thing that jumps out to me, in addition to what's all been said, about that esper passage is when he indicates that he didn't understand why trump kept asking him about colonel vindman. what planet was this man inhabiting during the years he worked for donald trump? we do understand what this person is, the extremism, the autocracy, and it's clear that smart people, accomplished people like mark esper, like kevin mccarthy, are going to look the other way, are going to duck and cover so long as it services their own ends and maybe they'll tell us on the back end when they can profit from their own book. but it's not going to come from within the republican party, and that's sobering truth we've absorbed in this country. thank you so much for spending the whole hour with us. it was really a treat and a privilege. thank you so much. quick break for us. we'll be right back.

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thank you so much for letting us into your home on this monday. we are grateful. "the beat" with our friend jason johnson in for ari melber starts right now. >> thank you so much. welcome to "the beat." i'm jason johnson. for ari melber. we start with the january 6th committee closing in on donald trump. they connect the dots without the help of allies who have been stonewalling the committee. adding that aides are helping fill in this gap about private