on cartoon at work now. marvel and dc are both releasing tributes to press. those who know him say he was a kind soul. i know he inspired millions of kids and adults to see their dreams play out on paper and in bright and authentic colors. he will be greatly missed. that does it for me tonight. the reidout with joy reid is next. joy reid is next ♪ ♪ ♪ >> good evening, everyone! we begin the reidout tonight with a frightening shoots about where we are headed post row. as the public did used to grow, and protest and identify. abortion rights protesters demonstrated outside the homes of justice brett kavanaugh and chief justice john roberts. some democrats joined right wingers and criticized him. if the justices don't like first amendment, they could just put another state or determined were the constitutional right applies. that's what they're telling women to, do they want to control their own bodies, right?

i digress. tonight, i would like to draw your attention to a rather telling footnote, just as samuels elitist on stripping worth of have our population by overturning roe. it caught a bit of online attention this weekend. in this footnote, it cites a report from 2008 that notes, quote, nearly 1 million women were seeking to adopt children in 2002, whereas the domestic supply of infants relinquished at birth or within the first month of life, and available to be adopted, had become virtually nonexistent, unquote. the domestic supply of infants. that line caught twitters interest as kind of creepy. in fact, the citation backs up and argued that was pushed by ultraconservative justice amy coney barrett during her questioning in the case last december. after varied noted both roe and casey emphasize the burdens of parenting and focuses on the consequences of parenting and

obligations of motherhood, she asked, why don't the safe haven loss take care of that problem? safe haven laws fertilize in several states allow people to drop off invents latent want, at firehouses, police stations, and other safe locations without legal consequences, like being charged with abandonment. it is, in short, the forced birth adoption option. there's a long history in the christian right seeking to do that, to make abortion illegal, but to push women who don't want to be pregnant tuesday pregnant anyway, and give the resulting infant up for adoption, long history of that. and pushing evangelicals to have big families, and to adopt large amounts. take this -- for trying to resettle migrant children who arrived in the u.s. unaccompanied, or who were stolen from their parents by the trump administration's child separation policy, to put them into question adopt a palms, something the organization vehemently denied. lessened, out the recent case in march of this year up matt shea, a far-right former washington state representative

who was accused of domestic terrorism, in relation to allegedly helping to plan the 2016 bundy ranch standoff with the federal government in the state of nevada. you remember that? he was in poland in march, trying to secure adoptions for more than 60 ukrainian children that he arrived with from across the border. now, of course, shutting down roe would increase the number of domestic available children, overlooking the fact using women against for adoptive families is literally the bthern on what was and wasn't legal during the 19th century. he notes by the time the 14th amendm three quarters of states have made abortion a crime. yet another footnote, he writes, in relation to massachusetts, now defunct 1845 law, case law, he said, held abortion was allowed with according to the judgment of physicians in the relevant community.

the procedure is necessary to preserve the woman's life or, or her physical or, emotional health. it is telling that alito notes the timing of the 14th amendment. one citing the legality of abortion for the physical and emotional health of women, that could only have meant certain women. in 1845, enslaved women had no protection under law, and were not treated as citizens, or even as people. it was indeed the 14th amendment that granted at least, on paper, citizenship, rights to the formerly enslaved. women for whom the reality of abortion had a different significance in bondage. the college of charleston notes that enslaved women knew that enslavers valued and depended upon their ability to bear children, and to increase the slave population. with understanding, insight from and participated in acts of resistance, specific to the labor demands of them. from avoiding sexual intercourse, to terminating pregnancy, to taking the lives

of their own infants. that includes the very real tragedy of margaret garner who took the life of her own daughter rather than subject her to the horrors of slavery. that slavery is the, that story, is the inspiration behind tony morrison's beloved, which goes a long way towards explaining this big push to ban that book in schools and libraries. as the aclu points out, like slavery, maximizing wealth and consolidating power motivated the antiabortion enterprise. republicans -- making clear that they are not finished trying to consolidate power by not just overturning roe, they want to go further. mississippi governor tate reeves evaded all sorts of questions this weekend while refusing to rule out banning contraception. senate minority leader mitch mcconnell said a national abortion ban would be possible. would be possible if roe is a returned. joining me now is chair of the religious teddies department at the university of pennsylvania

and author of white evangelical racism, the politics of morality in america. former rnc chair michael steele who is an msnbc political analyst. thank you for being here. i do want to start with you, i went into a deep wormhole about the history of enslaved women and abortion over the weekend, and the reality is it was an act of resistance and an act of desperation for a lot of women who would take roots, things passed down to them, their knowledge from the continent, africa, their mothers and four others knew about herbs you could take to abort. they did it because slavery was worse than death. i know that the anti-education republicans would like to portray slavery as benign institution that wasn't so bad, people would rather die, would rather have their children die, and would abort on their own to stop creating more product, more available domestic supply of children. what do you make of this fixation, samuel alito has with that era, but in his mind, that 1970 area was the good old days?

>> for samuel alito, i am sure that he would like to be able to sell babies again, if he possibly could. let's take it back for a minute and talk about the 19th century. i think this is really important to part of what is going on. this idea about family, and the way family gets constructed for evangelicals really starts in the 19th century, post reconstruction period, were the [inaudible] of white women, the protection of white men comes out of fear of rape by blackmon. we know this is a lie, but on the other hand, i think what is important here is two things, number one, black women were never afforded these kinds of protections because they were always in peril and their children were always in peril. their children could be sold from them at any particular time. it's no surprise they would want to have their children not grow up in slavery, and take their own lives instead of letting their children be sold by a slave master. that's number one. let me put a finer point on.

that you showed a picture of a plantation. i'm not sure everybody knows where that plantation is. it's oak alley in louisiana. when i visited that plantation, resend whatever euthanized this picture, it's a very arresting one that looks go all the way up to the plantation. you get a list of the slaves on the back porch of that plantation, and many of the slaves were -- how did they get there? it was because of rip by the white slave masters. i think this whole thing that alito is alluding to in this document is about two things. number one, wanting to make sure that the white personhood of babies is preserved. that is number one. that they will be protected. number two, that there will be enough children so that if you want to cross racially adopt, you can adopt. that doesn't matter if somebody has a baby and you are not able to get an abortion. >> you know, listen, michael, my friend, here's the challenge. if you go back and read the old testament of the bible, which

is the same as reading the jewish bible, the tara, the traditions, the abrahamic traditions all share books, they share every hammock storylines, characters, etc. the idea of the handmaiden is in there. you know, when market atwood wrote this book, it shouldn't take it out of -- she took it from old, biblical stories. the idea the woman who was barren, this was an agrarian society, 1600, 900 bc, or being barren, the described as a woman, never the man, until very recently, was horrible. it was a curse from god. you would take your handmade, your servant, in those cases, and they would have the baby. this is not a consensual situation. it's a servant. i feel like trying to ground american law in that kind of, not even new testament christiane 80, but old testament christianity, that is a frightening start. it doesn't end with just a portion.

you now have mississippi kate reeves, the governor there, state of the union, sort of, it may try to ban plan b, iuds because of these -- marsha blackburn opposing the griswold decision, that is the one about contraception. they're saying that's wrong, we decided we have this guy in arizona, he is peter's guy. he says, no, we want to go further, we want to overturn griswold. that's the plan, that's the contraception one. which mcconnell saying national ban abortion entirely possible. this is the definition, michael, of a slippery slope. is it not? the definition, >> it is, on a f levels. to your first point, it is much more difficult to reconcile this emerging theocracy within this conservative, evangelical, slash political space against the new testament story, against a new testament background. it doesn't align.

the new testament narrative is very different, where the christ embraced everyone. the prostitute, the center, the tax collector was a representation of all those great scenes that were condemned in the old testament. christ talked about the fixation of the rule, and the order to the extent and ignored the person, and that is exactly what we see now emerging in this space, and as someone who is pro, and who always had a problem with the ignoring of the human person part of this e, and this idea it's a zero sum situation, particularly in the draconian laws you are seeing now that say we won't even acknowledge-y the -- we want to do away with the

child conceived, we won't will allow that to happen in report insist. so, there is this sense that the party that is now trying to write this new narrative is doing so, and the basis is going to be put in this old testament space to make those folks who probably would have some problem otherwise feel better about where this is going, because it's aligning with the christian narrative. they are putting pieces out right now that have been written by some christian philosophers and doctors of the evangelicalism, david french, for one, that are beginning to peel back that a bit more, expose it and talk more honestly about what is really going on here. >> it's interesting. i know, my brother, he went to seminary, we all grew up in the church, all three of us that are on this panel right now grew up in a church. i thought sunday school when i

was in high school. so, we're not supposed to talk religion and politics, it's quite rude. we have to do it now. you have to understand these, this is not book of matthew christianity. i want to bring you and the. what is missing here is the book of matthew christianity, the christianity this is blessed are the immigrant that we got to care for their immigrant. where is the christianity that says children deserve to have food and close? they deserve to have a school lunch, school kids being called greedy if they are having school lunch? where is the believe children should have health care? none of that is there. if you force a woman and say you must give a rapists baby life, but we are going to do nothing for you to make sure that life survives, that you survive, that is not the christianity i think any of us, whether you are antiabortion, or believe abortion is a woman's choice, nobody is supposed to recognize that. i want to play one person who i think crystallized it for me. this is a woman, an antitrust activist, ashton pitman, in mississippi.

you write for the mississippi free press. he did an interview with this woman the day after the scotus lead. here's what she said. take a look. >> abortion should be obsolete. >> does that include pregnancies? >> everything. he's in control. >> even if a woman would die, the doctor said this woman will die without an abortion? >> yes. i have to put it in his hands. he is the maker of all. if he wants that woman to live, and he's not ready to take her home, he is going to make it happen. we are at his mercy. >> this is a guy that smite, not the god that loves. it's not the kind of christiana tea -- i guess they think it's a winning version of christiana to? this is madness. your thoughts? >> well, i want to put a point on this. i think it's a very important point. we can't really judge what kind of christiane adi. there are many. what that means is there are different people who determine

what they think from the reading of scripture what it means. there are many questions out here right now who are pro-choice. we are paying a lot of attention to the pro-life people right now, but there are people out here who believe in jesus, and all this stuff, and who are pro choice because they respect the woman's right to choose. secondarily, i want to pick on the scriptures you picked and go back to something you said. let's talk about who was a surrogate in the bible. a surrogate for sara. because of that, she got cast out. i am wondering about all the women who are going to be cast out because of these rules, because of the way these laws that are draconian will put harm to them. how will we deal with women who are forced to have births and forced to be pregnant when they have these babies and can't take care of them? this is the problem. it's not about the old or new testament, it's about the fact that these people do not want

to care for anyone else other than themselves. but they care about is prosperity, their prosperity, not the nation's prosperity, not women's prosperity, not anyone else is. why are we sitting here talking about even shuttles now, michael steele, it's about catholics as well. catholics are in the mix of this. we don't get here without talking about catholic starting this drive against abortion, and about catholics saying that, back in the 1960s, during vatican two, they did not want to have contraception. we cannot talk about this as though this is just an evangelical story. this is an evangelical catholic story. it's a story of people who don't understand what's going on. >> we are out of time, but i will let you respond, michael. is happening in a country that is increasingly secular. we are all believers. this country is not a country that is full of people who are christian catholic, or not. there are people not in the church. how is it people who are

extreme right, you know, a certain niche of christianity can impose their biblical version of the bible on 327 million people? >> so, to the point that was just made, the catholic church, we may disagree with the theology behind the pro life position, but you cannot disagree with the work and that is the difference. between the hospitals and institutions, the catholic charities, all the organizations that are designed and built around the idea of giving women who make that choice of life, the opportunity to bring that child to term, to receive what they need, that is the rest of the story, to joy's point, that is not being dealt with politically. when you look at this, you can look at it holistically, or look at it in individual pockets, but at the end of the day, it is about how do we, if we are going to do this, how do we continue to care for those

folks ones we say of them you must do this or that? >> we are not. you know what, we aren't going to do this. women are not going to be slaves of the, state woman will not allow their bodies to be state property. i don't care what you are saying. you think people respect the supreme court decision? they will not. women will not become property of the state. watch what happens. it's not going to go down. sia butler, michael steele, thank you both very much. next on the readout, putin's victory day speech came with usual propaganda, but no claim of victory. first lady jill biden became the latest high-profile visitor to ukraine's capital to show international support. she was not alone. documents reveal no evidence of what ron desantis called indoctrination in florida map books. he banned them anyway. what is up with that, ron? the republican operatives with kremlin ties who keep popping up in presidential campaigns. the readout continues after this. readout continues afte this

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annual victory day parade. russia celebration of the soviet union's role in the defeat of nazi journey where a lot of rakuten, once again, tried to justify his murderous attack on ukraine by basically framing it as a continued fight against the nazis. the russian dictator did not announce any new escalation of the war as some observers thought he might do. parade comes as russia really is not doing well in this war. the senior u.s. defense official telling nbc news that russia's progress in the donbas is somewhat anemic, and the u.s. has seen anecdotal evidence that some russian officers are refusing to obey orders. ukrainian president zelenskyy remains confident saying, today, quote, very soon, there will be two victory days in ukraine. someone won't have any. this comes as the west has given him a big show of support. first lady doctor joe biden crossed into ukraine yesterday to meet with her counterpart,

canadian prime minister justin trudeau also made a surprise visit to meet with zelenskyy, and to raise the canadian flag at the reopening of the country's embassy. members of the band you to travel to keep to perform any -- troops inside of makeshift bomb shelters. today, president biden signed a full bill reviving a world war ii lend lease program that would speed up the process for u.s. military aid to reach ukraine. joining me now, julia davis and maxine borden, mariupol city council member. thanks for being. here julia, this victory parade, there's a lot of preceding what might happen on the ninth, and it might be an opportunity for putin to announce an escalation of the war, to proclaim some sort of victory. he did neither. what do you make of that? what are they saying on russian state tv about it? >> there is no victory for him to proclaim. they aren't doing well, and even on state tv, that kind of

admission is starting to break through. they are admitting their economy is not able to maintain this war effort, they've even talked about having to crowdfund drones. they are envious of ukraine's supply of turkish made drones. also, for putin to announce any type of an escalation would already be at admission of defeat. he framed this offensive as a special military operation because he counted that it would be something akin to what happened in crimea. it would be quick and relatively painless. the sanctions would be manageable, and it would be all over before you knew it, and he would be sitting with an entire country and his pocket. of course, it didn't work out that way. if he starts calling it a war, that would mean he failed to achieve's goals through the military operation, and i don't think he is willing to admit that. there are things happening at

the military enlistment offices in russia, and people are growing more and more resistant to this war. on state television, they are trying to scare people into fighting against ukraine, which they are framing as war against nato. they are claiming that the west, if they managed to crush russia, would open up concentration camps and subject all russians to mandatory sterilization. their fear tactics are being applied internally and externally, where the rest of the worlds, the russia keeps threatening with nuclear weapons. that's basically all they've got to threaten us with. >> meanwhile, they're putting out what looks like north korea. those images look like straight out of north korea with the big military parade. i'm wondering how much money they spent on that, how many rebels that are worth us at this point. maxine, it must be strange to

watch this propaganda failure take place across the border while, in reality, in ukraine, russian forces are still massacring people. >> it's hard to look at the russian propaganda videos. they always fly, a lot of lies. we've seen some short videos from mariupol where invaders and collaborates take part in celebration. most people in this video are not local. what's cynical in this celebration, the invaders are shown with the biggest flag in the world, and they did it against the background in mariupol, [inaudible] getting bodies out of the rubble is nearly finished. warm weather will make them

gain faster, and atrocities is in the air of this celebration. >> and at this stage, does it mean a lot to ukrainians were people like doctor jill biden to come, for bands to come and perform the canadian prime minister to come? what does that mean? what does that do, if anything, for the people in ukraine? >> i think any help for ukraine, any moral help is very important. in addition to obtain high precision weapons, we need ship planes and to enforce total sanctions on russia. no russian gas, no russian oil, to the united states or to any eu countries at all. with this help, we can stop putin. without the south, putin will not be stopped in ukraine, and

will go further and further to other eu countries, and even now, we see the global problem of the russian war in ukraine. the problem with grain, the problem with food for all the people, for all the world. putin doesn't just kill people in ukraine, he kills people in the whole world. but e it will be made for tomorrow. >> i agree with that. everybody watching this sciutto agrees with you. i wonder, there was even this attack on russian satellite tv, this message hacked into it, it altered the message people saw on their screens that said you have blood on your hands, according to screen grabs that were obtained by reuters. does there -- is their value, in your mind -- what is the reaction, i should say, two things like that, and to things like doctor biden, and pop culture, and the sort of world country verging in --

does that have any residents inside of russia? >> i believe it does. a lot of people simply choose to believe in propaganda because it frees them of accountability or feeling guilt. these reminders are powerful. there was also an entire website where there was a number of articles that were published exposing putin's role in this war, calling him paranoid, describing the bloody massacre he is inflicting upon ukraine. it is very important, especially putin is all about symbolism, and every gesture of support is important, not only for ukraine, but a reminder to russia that it is not getting away with what it's doing, and it'll be up to the global community to stop him. >> julie davis and maksym,

thank you very much. i appreciate it. ahead, the distorted device of a downright bizarre process that led to florida banning dozens of math textbooks. we will discuss when we come back. discuss when we come back your projects done right . with angi, you can connect with and see ratings and reviews. and when you book and pay throug you're covered by our happiness check out angi.com today. angi... and done. panera chefs have crafted a masterpiece... and when you book and pay throug y succulent, seared chicken...s a secret aioli... clean ingredients... in a buttery brioche roll. made fresh, to leave you... speechless. panera's new chef's chicken sandwiches. $1 delivery fee on our app.

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you both stay comfortable all night. it's also temperature balancing so you stay cool. save $500 on the sleep number 360 c4 smart bed, queen now only $1,299. plus no interest until january 2025 ends monday. fanduel and draftkings, two out of state corporations making big promises to californians. what's the real math behind their ballot measure for online sports betting? 90% of profits go to the out of state corporations permanently. only eight and a half cents is left for the homeless. and in virginia, arizona,

and other states, fanduel and draftkings use loopholes to pay far less than was promised. sound familiar? it should. last month, for his education it's another bad scheme for california. department made a big to do about publishers allegedly trying to end alternate children through math books. it says a rejected looks at included references to critical

race theory. the conservative bassett no for anything to do with race, gender, history, or any of the stuff that frightens desantis and his friends. the department released nearly 6000 pages of text book reviews to show what's actually they took issue with. what we got was a whole lot of nothing. dozens of state reviewers found zero, nothing, no evidence of probity topics like critical race theory. one of the rail reviewers who flagged content is a conservative activist from, you guessed, it mobs for liberty. the orlando sentinel reports that she called one book bias when it came to global warming and climate crisis. another reviewer took issue with a math problem regarding equal pay discrimination or a review by the new york times suggesting the problem in question was this word problem, comparing sellers for men and women's soccer players using megan rapinoe as an example. that, of course, is not critical race theory, but as we know, none of business. florida state senator is joining me now.

senator jones, we found nothing. if there weren't critical race theory scary race things in the books, have you been able to figure out, as a member of the senate education committee, what was wrong with the books? >> no. first of all, thank you for having me. i have not found out what was wrong with these books. neither were my republican colleagues, nor the governor's office, or the educational department were able to find out what was wrong with anything inside the books. one thing we can agree on is this is the continuation of the cultural war we've dealt with in this last legislative session. reviewers are asked to flag critical race theory, social justice, as it relates to the crt, and they found none of it, nowhere within the books, because it's not being taught. >> interesting. one other reviewer said the book was acceptable. this is tampa bay times. one reviewer banning a middle school math textbooks saying the book met all the standards on critical race theory and

justified it this way. first example with a black student pick's basketball. most pictures of white people, on a sports related. that was approved. they are saying, as long as the black people who are showed playing basketball, and most of the other pictures are white people, books good. your thoughts? >> well, here's the thing, as we look at what's happening right now, in florida, internationally, this is the bogeyman approach we see happening. the state of florida continuously are going after these issues that are not issues in the state of florida. joy, to be honest with you, it's time the state of florida that is racing on these types of things. we should be looking at what we could do to put teachers in the classroom, considering we have this mess exit happening. still, here we are, bending over 54 books. mind you, we have had this

process in place long before the governor was here. booker view, i served as a reviewer when i was a teacher. never where we dealing with things like this, to where it was censorship like the state of florida is doing. >> moms for liberty, this review probe the new york times, chris allen, an activist with the group, objected to math problem she wrote suggested a correlation between racial prejudice, age, education, stuff like that. a reviewer who was not a math expert named jordan adams, a civic education specialist of hillsdale college, in michigan, part of a leadership team working to expand its network of charter schools. he raised concerns the curriculum he wants from those views on american history, he flagged a textbook because it talked about racism at all. what is the mix in your mind that you've been able to look at between wanting to cleanse books of anything about race that makes people like the

conservatives uncomfortable? what percentage is wanting to buy the books from this one carlyle group related entity that is also related to the governor of virginia? ed>> that's where it is that for me. the fact is who is benefiting from this because while you are banning books all for the sake of teaching critical race series, someone is making money on the other side. i think it's a great percentage of it that is the person who is making money off the state of florida, off of the critical race theory. >> quickly, have you gotten any information? there is a story that came out this weekend that the governor should be paying attention to the millions of dollars lost in pension fund because they had investments in russia that ron desantis decided not to retract? there were $300 million invested in russia-backed companies, 200 million that is gone. any answers on that? >> i think the governor has said he's going to leave it up

to the legislator to make that decision. 12 other legislators have already made was to make sure we push back on what it's doing. >> we are out of time, but i know you're trying to activate black voters in the state. tell us quickly about that. >> quickly, may 21st, 2:00 pm, statewide rally for black epel in jacksonville to key west. a pushback on what is happening in the state of florida, with the trampling of black people. >> good luck with that, for state senator shevrin jones. thank you so much, sir. still ahead, there are still so many unanswered questions about the republican party's embrace of lobbyists who are pushing putin's agenda here inside the united states. we are back in a second. we are back in a secon d. as someone with hearing loss i know what a confusing and frustrating experience getting hearing aids can be.

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for so many still suffering. so don't wait, call the number on your screen. so, i want to tell you a little or donate at mercyships.org. story about a very corrupt consultant class in washington. the story starts to people, you recognize one name, paul manafort, he was partnered with this fellow named rick davis. one was heavily involved in a campaign, and another was known to be buzzing around it. but these two men also had their own lobbying firm together, whose main clients all point back to the kremlin. in fact, manafort subjective on behalf of his client, have been to overturn a democratic revolution in ukraine. and prop up the kremlin's man in kyiv. now, entrenched in this american presidential campaign, they got to work setting up a meeting between the candidate

and a guy named oleg deripaska, on a yacht. his name should be familiar to, his and now sanction russian poll oligarch who has many ties within american politics, at least one party. the goal is to manipulate this candidate -- neighboring former formerly -- neighboring former satellite called montenegro, by pushing independence from serbia. you may recall, it was montenegro's prime minister who is pushed aside and nato summit by a certain orange person. by the way, i'm not talking about trump's 2016 campaign, or his 2020 election effort, this is a story about john mccain's 2008 presidential campaign. these men, especially ricky davis, who is mccain's campaign manager, entangled john mccain, of all people, someone who's very, very anti russia, to help advance putin's imperial ambitions. that bizarre story came back to life this weekend, by dint of

an epic series of twitter mats by one steve smith, who you've seen on the show. it was originally about his daughter, and yeah he definitely knows who her father was. of course, mccain lost the 2008 election to barack obama, but as we know. manafort, along with his kremlin allies, found their way into yet another campaign, namely kept the campaign of possibly the most dangerous, possibly the most car totally derelict person to run for, let alone when the presidency of the united states, donald trump. as much as we all know about the catastrophic dangers of trump's presidency, we are learning even more about the incredibly disastrous actions here his administration were looking to pursue, and that is next. administrioatn were looking to pursue, and that is next

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administration was, it could have been a lot worse, and that is coming from those who were on the inside. former defense secretary, mark esper, who is fired by trump just out to the 2020 election, who is now trying to gin up new -- is dishing about all the dangerous things he claims that he, heroically, helped prevent it from happening. >> what kind of terrible things did you prevent? >> at various times, during certainly the last year the administration, you had folks in the white house who are proposing to take military action against venezuela to

strike iran, at one point somebody proposed we've blockade cuba. these ideas would happen, it seemed, every few weeks, something like this would come up, and we'd have to swat them down. >> joining me now is matthew dowd, msnbc contributor founder of country over party, it's always great to talk with. you i know that my mom used to say don't roll your eyes in your head because they might stay that way, but i'm tempted to roll them back in my head when i hear these people who just, in the moment of our greatest peril, they thought to write down everything that was happening and keep copious notes such a they could write a book. here's another thing that mark esper, who let me remind everyone was nicknamed jesper during his tenure as defensive terry, because you let trump do everything he wanted, here is saying he is indeed a threat to democracy, here is. >> do you think donald trump was a threat to democracy? >> i think that given the events of january 6th, given how he has undermined the election results, he incited

people to come to d.c., store them up that morning, and failed to call them off. today, that threatens our democracy. >> so yes? . >> what else can you conclude, brett? >> i'm gonna roll my eyes and let you talk. >> well, i don't think he should give anybody any credit for anything they do, when they didn't have the courage to do it at the time it could've had it impacts. all of these folks that are of these former trump folks, who have now come out and said i did x, y, and z, whether it had to do with the pandemic or know all these crazy things that we all knew at the time were going on during the midst of this. it would've had an impact, if in that moment they were brave enough, and had the courage enough -- especially someone like mark, jasper who is commanding people in the field who had the courage to fight in the field, he didn't even have the courage to say it in the moment, that it could've had a significant impacts. i give absolutely zero credit, and actually i'm critical of people that try to profit off of writing a book when they didn't have the bravery to do it in the moment. >> yeah, indeed, and some of

the things he said, people like him and barr and all the rest of the enablers who are now running out trying to hawk books to make themselves sort of seem heroic. some of the stuff, i still believe out there saying. he says here that trump proposed launching missiles into mexico to destroy drug labs, just the stuff that is coming out is terrifying. what does it bode if donald trump was to be president again? because my presumption is, all of the same figures or the replacements wouldn't let him do whatever he wants as they did before, meaning we could be in for a world of hurt if this guys ever president again? >> well i think of donald trump is elected president of the united states in 2024, then we might as well mail our democracy, in and we're no longer that. i think if he is able to get reelected, and he's going to surround himself, we thought there were many bad people around it himself, with his gun's round of self with the worst of the worst, because he's gonna want to do exactly what he wants to do. and now we have discovered, if

that were to happen, the republican party will do nothing to push, absolutely nothing to push back. so if that occurs, i think we're over the precipice of a loss of our democracy, and i'm not a person of hyperbole, but if i think that happens that's where we'd be. >> i agree, or really any of them, because i don't think desantis is any better than trump, and it's clear that the people who, you know, like the current house minority leader would like whoever it is get away with, it because they made a very clear that even when they personally believe the truth, and they know the truth, they don't care. if it's part of being of an operatic to power, they'll do it, i see no heroes here. here's a watch washington post head line marc meadows granted those conspiracy theories about a stolen election, direct access to the oval office he -- including the emperor bizarre theory that an italian his

operation to change votes, he pushed the justice department unsuccessfully to invalidate election results on and on and on. at this point former attorney general eric holder said there shouldn't be an indictment, that might be what needs to happen, do you think the justice department i'll think they will. whether they're so inclined to indict trump? >> well i'm on these ones because they are only people who are prosecuted thus far were just the foot soldiers, and not a single, leader and have no single leader of one happened -- has been accountable, and then we're not gonna get any further than this. i would ask your viewers in the midst of this, as we head into 22 and the judgments they need to make, let go of dogma, let go of ideology, and they should just vote two things on election day. who has integrity, and who is willing to stand up with integrity, and who supports democracy in our constitution? vote on those two things, and that's the only way. i have total confidence that the justice department is gonna hold him accountable, but the

voters will. >> maybe if eric holder were still there. last question, comment for me if you will about the fact that the paul manafort, ricky davis wing has been trying to insert kremlin politics into our politics. at least, maybe he says the bob dole campaign, at least according to what steve schmidt was tweeting this weekend. and definitely into the mccain campaign. >> well, you know, i was involved with the bush campaign in 2000, i was a chief strategist in 2004. one of the common things that we knew, is don't go near those guys. those guys are corrupt, those guys are slimy, don't go anywhere near them. i think one thing about john mccain, you can hold two things simultaneously. yes, he was a war hero, but to, he had really bad judgment and really crucial times. and sarah palin and rick davis been in the middle of the campaign is a sense of really bad judgment that john mccain had, and he was a war hero. you can hold those two things simultaneously. >> and one of those things that steve schmidt said is the

people who push to have on the e slimy individuals, the russia wing wanted payment beyond that. matthew, doubt is scary, stuff i really appreciate you, that is tonight's read out, all in with chris hayes starts now. out, all i >> tonight, on all in. >> without the start about things to prevent, and really bad things, dangerous things that could've taken the country in a dark direction. >> people trying to stop trump doing dangerous things, and the people outright encouraging it. harrowing details tonight on the final days of the last administration. plus -- >> given what we have learned, i think that he probably has to be held accountable. >> are we getting any closer to an actual trump indictment from the justice department? then -- >> at the end of the day, there is no right to an abortion in the united states constitution. >> the threat to women's health and dozens of stale, and the local democrats trying to hold it at