have been hounding this over and over again, and for months on the campaign trail. people, republicans and democrats, know that voters are mostly going to vote on the issue of inflation, costs, and the economy, jonathan. >> yeah. there's just only so much either end of pennsylvania avenue can do on inflation. "washington post"'s leigh ann caldwell, thank you for all the great reporting. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" on this thursday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. actor james cromwell superglued himself to the counter of a starbucks to protest the charging more of plant-based milk. at dunkin, you stick to the counter naturally. >> this is true. no morning, i had both dunkin and starbucks. is that bad? >> our boston boy here. >> every day. >> you have to have a lot of shots. it is a turbo. you have to get the turbo with

cream in it. >> red sox may not have a baseball team, but they have coffee. >> coffee franchise. >> need the extra caffeine. we have a lot to get to. democrats are reacting after their bill to expand abortion rights nationwide failed in the senate. democratic senator joe manchin voted against the bill but says he does support turning roe v. wade into law. we'll play his explanation. we're also following new reporting on where the supreme court stands right now on the issue, as justices prepare to meet for the first time since that leaked draft opinion. and from pennsylvania to georgia, some top republicans are urging primary voters to reject candidates endorsed by donald trump. we'll have that new reporting from the campaign trail. >> i'll tell ya what, it is -- >> getting ugly. >> -- getting crazy in pennsylvania. you look at who the republicans may be electing in pennsylvania.

democrats, they may just go to france for the next six months and win. >> where'd she come from? >> you look, these are people that look like they're moving to the front of the pack, especially the governor primary, but also in the senate primary. all in on stolen elections, all in on qanon. this would be mitch mcconnell and the republican party's worst nightmare. >> yeah. >> well, they have donald trump to thank for it. >> yeah. >> in the sense, you know, if trump had endorsed mccormick, probably the whole thing would have been over. >> dave mccormick was a former -- a vet, hedge fund guy. >> husband to dina powell, senior trump administration official. a guy with a strong -- pennsylvania roots, establishment republican gone maga. hired a lot of trump people. trump endorsed dr. oz instead.

once he endorsed dr. oz, which caused a lot of anger in pennsylvania but, suddenly, it opened the gate. everyone in that primary has been running as hard toward trump as possible. he could have shut it down by endorsing mccormick. endorsing oz, it opened the door to the rest of the -- >> the craziness. >> -- candidates. >> oz is as much of a scam artist as jd vance. not conservative. certainly -- >> worse in the sense of conservative inconsistency. >> exactly. then you look, trump is not just trying to help oz. i mean, he's now going after mccormick and wants to destroy him. >> he spent the entire rally the other night going at mccormick. dina powell, mccormick's wife, is a top adviser to donald trump. interesting dynamic there. >> some of his favorite people in the campaign. >> another candidate, cathy par

barnett, she shot up 19 points. the club for growth made a $2 million ad buy for her. she has some extreme positions. she's neck-and-neck with the other candidates. >> again, we're not talking about people who were extreme on quantitative easing. >> right. >> we're talking about people all in on qanon. >> yes. >> all in on stolen elections. all in on the conspiracy theories like churned up by chinese religious cults. >> yeah. this is trump endorsing the biggest celebrity in the race, the biggest nation. that was jd vance and herschel walker and now dr. oz. trump had a rally outside philadelphia. every time oz was showed on the screen, the crowd booed. >> is this a good thing, a bad thing? >> tends to be bad. >> again, if you are a rank and

file trumper and you see oz, who at the beginning of covid was going, please, dress like a mummy. i want you to dress like a mummy. i want you to cover every pore on your body. i mean, he was -- he went full fauci. now, suddenly, he's a covid skeptic. i mean, you name it. whether it is abortion rights, whatever it is. if you are a rank and file trumper and you see oz, then you see a hedge fund guy. >> yeah. >> you have trump bashing the hedge fund guy, suddenly, you're looking at this -- >> barnett. >> if you have the qanon, then you don't trust the other guy from out of state. >> the position was, i'm the real trump person. she was not crazy enough, then it opened the door to barnett.

i'll say, if alex can find this ad, the day trump endorsed dr. oz, mccormick, who had tons of money, went on television in pennsylvania with a dr. oz ad that was basically a -- it was one of the most incredible negative ads you'd see. dr. oz the liberal. it had shots of dr. oz with bill clinton, hillary clinton, barack obama, michelle obama, dr. fauci. it was basically him on the hollywood walk of fame literally kissing or on his hands and knees on a star on the hollywood boulevard. it was like everything you could imagine that was bad in donald trump's maga movement, all of them, dr. oz. every totem of badness was listed. they spent millions of dollars on the ad. it's made dr. oz the butt of the jokes. >> you look what's happening, mika, in pennsylvania. who is likely to win there. if herschel wins in georgia. you look at jd vance in ohio.

you really want to look at cray s? look at what's happening in arizona. this is the madness. you look at their senate candidate who is ahead, the gubernatorial candidate. the gubernatorial candidate, they're all conspiracy theorists. republicans, like, this is a layup. running against these democrats, this is -- the democrats are the washington generals this year. these candidates -- >> yes. >> -- like, it is unbelievable. >> let's put the toothpaste back in the tube because we're going to -- >> we need to keep talking about it. >> spread it around a little. >> i'm telling you, you know, these are a group of todd aikens. remember todd aiken who was so easy to beat? these people are making todd aiken look like everett derkson. they're that crazy. >> we're hearing the word "maga"

come out of the president's mouth, chuck schumer's mouth. the maga republicans. then going on something you've been saying for a couple months, just call them crazy. >> they're freaks. >> a lot of these candidates are flat out ccrazy. >> they're freaks and liars. >> i don't know if ultra maga is going to work, though, because republicans are saying i'm proud to be ultra maga. it is giving them -- >> that'll give them 33%. take your 33%. >> eric, of all the people, has more scandals attached to him than any, and they could blow the missouri senate race if they end up nominating him. >> which is really hard to do. >> at this point, missouri is no longer a purple state, i think it is fair to say. eric greiton could be todd aiken again, literally in the same state. >> yeah. this is what they do to the democratic message.

this is stefanik responding. >> you're being called ultra maga. >> i am ultra maga and proud of it. >> did she say ultra? >> proud of it. >> you get where she was when she first came into congress. >> i want to cry. >> jd vance at the same time. and dr. oz at the same time. you go down this list, they all loathed donald trump. they were the opposite of, the polar opposite. kevin mccarthy. like, kevin mccarthy was saying that donald trump was on vladimir putin's a-roll. >> i want to check something. >> we've heard it on tape now. >> yeah. >> it's on tape. interesting statewide tests. one thing to be marjorie taylor greene and you win that district. >> seriously. >> statewide race. >> perfect example, crazy can

win. >> again and again. >> statewide in pennsylvania. >> exactly. >> arizona. you bring in the crazy. >> it is a test of can you just be a vessel parroting donald trump's message? does the message work without the guy, without donald trump? it's not working for david pure due. ♪ david perdue. he leads with "the 2020 election was stolen," and he was getting crushed by kemp right now. it is not particularly working in other states. jd vance it worked for, but will it work in a general election? that's the question. >> why doesn't it work? it doesn't work because there is no ideology to trumpism. >> right. >> it's not like somebody can go, i believe in one, two, three, four, five. there is no ideology. there is no belief system. it is a personality cult. so you believe what donald trump says, and you repeat the conspiracy theories. that's all it is. so unless you have the personality to carry that off,

trumpism is not transferable to the grassroots level. you have to be a special kind of crazy. >> it is a personality cult that, right now, donald trump is also offering you no new message here. defense of vladimir putin a short time ago and, of course, relitigaing the 2020 election. other republicans are so desperate to turn the page on that, but those that have affixed their star to trump won't do it. it comes at a moment where the environment is so conducive and favorable to republicans. >> oh, my lord. never been more favorable to republicans. >> democrats i speak to, including for a story out today with white house officials, inflation is terrifying. they know it cooled a smidge the month, but they know inflation is, as they put it, undefeated in terms of taking out presidents and their parties. yet, this is a moment where republicans could open the door to a self-owned defeat because they'll put the wrong people up. if they stay on message and keep their head down, which is what mitch mcconnell asks every day, they could just talk about inflation and they'd stand to win big in november.

>> it is also, as willie said, a test of the republicans in some ways. still, it's a test to democrats in some ways. the inflation thing as the national economy will affect the house races. senate is different. the individual states make their own wind and weather. democrats in a lot of these states, it's a test of them. can they push this, not just the ultra maga, but can they make it? each state, there is no reason why a democrat can't win statewide in pennsylvania. no reason a democrat can't wait in georgia, arizona, and some of these states. the question is, you know, can they -- not just how far off the crazy diving board have republicans gone, but can democrats with weak candidates win the senate races? it'll be a test for the democratic party, whether they can make the argument and sell it to voters, that it is too extreme for them. >> the democrats look like the washington generals. they're as hapless. as crazy as the candidates are they're running against, it's

hapless democrats in washington, d.c. >> generals didn't have a good win/loss record. >> again, talking about layups. mika, they won't take a layup when they have one. >> no, they won't. let's get to that now. we have a lot of news abroad which we'll get to. we'll continue squeezing the toothpaste out of the tube. a senate bill that would expand abortion rights nationwide fell to a republican filibuster. it failed to get majority support after joe manchin joined all 50 republicans in voting against it. the west virginia democrat said he'd support a clean bill that codifies roe v. wade into federal law, but not the bill that was put on the senate floor yesterday. >> i was hopeful that the democratic party, having control of the agenda, would put a piece of legislation forward that would codify roe v. wade.

70% of the american public wants roe v. wade codified, as it has been year for 50 years. that would have been the reasonable, rational thing to do. the bill we have today to vote on, women's health protection act, and i respect people who support, but make no mistake, it is not roe v. wade codification. it is an expansion. it wipes 500 state laws off the books. it expands abortion. with that, that's not where we are today. we should not be dividing this country further than we're already divided. it is really the politics of congress is dividing the country. it is not the people. they're telling us what they want. and it's just disappointing that we're going to be voting on a piece of legislation which i will not vote for today. but i would vote for roe v. wade codification if it was today. i was hopeful for that. >> did you hear that last thing he said? republican senators lisa murkowski and susan collins, both supporting abortion rights, also opposed the democratic

legislation, saying it is too expansive and threatens religious liberty. they have introduced their own legislation that has, so far, not received a vote. democratic senator tim kaine said he is having, quote, productive discussions with collins and murkowski on a bipartisan bill. however, any abortion legislation that would likely struggle to get past a republican filibuster. >> willie, we've been saying here on the air several days, what you want to do is you want to get a bipartisan bill, at least a bill that gets 50 votes, then you can say the republicans won't even let us put this bill on that codifies a constitutional right that has been on the books for 50 years, that 70% of americans don't want overturned. that's simple. manchin was telling them that. collins and murkowski was telling them that. manchin, collins, murkowski were talking. we can support codification of

the bill. once again, i don't know, i guess, you know -- i don't know how progressives think. i guess it's much harder for chuck schumer to do this than it looks from here, sitting around, drinking coffee and everything. real easy for me to say this here, but sure as hell seems like he would want to be able to send all of your people out to campaign and say, the republicans not only reversed 50 years of precedent, 50 years of precedent for a constitutional right that 70% of americans support, they wouldn't even let us vote on -- here's the operative word on the campaign trail -- a bipartisan bill to just simply codify roe. codify what 70% of the americans support. and the democrats can't do that?

why can't they do that? i don't -- let's go back to "big." i'll be tom hanks. i don't understand, why can't they do that? >> the legislation was on the table, as mika said. susan collins and lisa murkowski was working on it. joe manchin said, i would have voted for that. 70% issue in the country to codify roe. instead, the democrats went all the way. they feel they still have the message you're putting out there. republicans have said, we're against abortion rights. that's what they're going to be saying on the abortion campaign trail. but they can't say it is a bipartisan bill because they don't have murkowski and collins on board. maybe they don't care. if they were willing to do it, there probably was something less. moderate democrats thought some of it was extreme, if you looked at polling. adrienne elrod can offer insights, perhaps. senior aid to the hillary

clinton campaigns, as well. what do you make of the way chuck schumer and it d democratt about this legislation? >> willie, look, i think it's certainly up for debate, what should have been brought to the floor. chuck schumer and democrats believe this should be laid at the feet of republicans. the republican party, led by mitch mcconnell and led by mr. maga himself, donald trump, is the party that confirmed these three supreme court justices, these three conservative justices, which has gotten us to where we are right now. so, sure, a bipartisan bill, you know, that might be nice for some people to go out there and run on. the bottom line is with the filibuster, it's not going to make a difference. i think schumer believes we've got to get republicans on record making it clear where they stand on this issue. you know, i understand where people are coming from here, but i think going into the midterms, this is an issue, as you both just -- all of you mentioned, 7

out of 10 americans or 8 out of 10, depending on which poll you look at, still want roe v. wade to be the law of the land. we have to bear in mind that 32% of the electorate going into the midterms will be women over the age of 50. a lot of the women remember what times were like before roe was the law of the land. so i think that's the calculation democrats and chuck schumer were making. certainly up for debate. the bottom line is, this is not on democrats. this is on republicans. it is their fault and their fault alone we are in this issue. >> well, it certainly is on the republicans. john heilemann, so you want the voters to understand how much it's on republicans. you know, i've been talking about the 70% roe support. 70% support roe. you look at the polls. tell you what i'd do if i were a republican on the campaign trail. i'd start cherry-picking. just go to the christmas tree, take off an ornament, something that doesn't have 70% support. maybe something that has 20% support. something that has 30% support.

that's the christmas tree they have given republicans. i guarantee you, you put together everything that's in this bill, it ain't 70%. it's not supported by 70%. you know, again, roe, we know it has the 70% support. why not have a bipartisan bill? why not have a bill that 70% of americans support? >> best answer i think you can give. tomorrow is another day. we have months before the election. the option you were putting forward is still available to democrats. >> it is. >> the collins-murkowski bill is out there. they'd like co-sponsors. i don't know what chuck schumer is thinking about this, but it's may. whether by design or whether they stumble into this, the reality is, we all think that, you know, if the court is going to rule in june, perhaps it'll be more politically powerful to do what you're suggesting, exactly what you are suggesting, joe, because i think you're

right, a clean bill that says, just restore us back to -- after the court overturned roe, if that's what it does, have a clean bill, overrule the court, effectively, after june might be better timing for democrats. if that is the plan, i'm not saying it is, but if it were the plan, it would not be a crazy plan because of the option you're laying out. i thin it's the right option for democrats. it'd be more politically powerful after election day and after the court ruled. again, i don't know if that's what democrats are thinking but it is available to them. >> i'd love to hear what adrienne has to say. but jonathan lemire, the story of the democratic congress, thus far, is wildly overshooting the mark. and getting nothing from it. >> well, they want to know where people stand. >> you know, the time for virtue signaling is over. they don't have many legislative days left. they could go to joe manchin and

say, we need a $1.75 trillion bill. joe manchin said, i'll give you a $1.75 trillion bill. i want to -- and no one says this because they always like sticking horns on joe manchin who, by the way, democrats should all, like, send him, like, i don't know -- >> chocolate? >> box of chocolate, perhaps, for standing in the way of a $6 trillion bill, flooding this inflation, like, torn economy with a $6 trillion or $3 trillion. he said, i'd do a $1.75 trillion bill, but let's reverse the trump tax cuts, right? sounds like a good idea if you are a democrat. let's take care of the insulin fix. that sounds like a good idea if you are a democrat. but, no, it is never enough. it's like the electoral count act. the "wall street journal" and the "new york times" editorial pages both said, let's get rid of this electoral count act of

1887 if we want to avoid what happened on january 6th. if we want to avoid that next january 6th. democrats, no, doesn't go far enough. we want to put in every other voting rights package ever. the republicans are saying, yeah, we'll sign on to this. good is never good enough. again, democrats are left with nothing, and they're running out of time. >> right. the democrats continue to search for the perfect when the good is sitting there available to them. you know, the president, when he first came to office, the first covid relief bill they got done, they got done pretty easily with a significant win. since then, there have been democrats, white house aides even, who feel they overshot the mark here in terms of what they could do. certainly, it is still a very raw wound, how the build back better plan fell apart last winter. it looked like -- they obviously have control of both houses of congress, the white house, and they couldn't get it done because they couldn't come to

agreement within their own party. as much as -- and this is something a number of democrats said to me the last couple days -- they understand schumer's instinct to get people on the record for this vote here and say, "hey, here's where people stand," but it is reminiscent of the democrat voting rights act. democrats are in control. they're putting up a vote and are losing, they can't get democrats all in line. it is not a show of force. it makes them look impotent, like, we can't get anything done. that's the fear. democrats had control of congress with the presidency and have not nearly completed what joe biden's agenda was going to be. yes, it is narrow margins in congress. he doesn't have fdr size majorities but more could have been done that adrienne, you ha running crazy. gas at $4.40 a gallon. whoever the president is will be held responsible in some way for that. republicans are making sure of

it. with everything gone on, with the headwinds of history, the midterm elections, first term of a president, all of that, how do democrats overcome that? the house seems like a long shot, but in some of the senate races at least, how do democrats hold on to power? what is the winning message? >> well, willie, first of all, democrats have a great story to tell. under president biden, there is historic job growth. there is record unemployment, especially in the recovery that we made under this president from the pandemic. there is a great story to tell there. i think we have to do a much better job, number one, telling that story. number two, of course, acknowledging the pain that people are feeling, the pain they're feeling at the pump, the pain they're feeling in terms of their own prices at home, grocery store prices, you know, the price of food, the price of their everyday items that they live on. we have to show that we are actually trying to address inflation and contrast that with the republicans who are not trying to do anything on this, who are blocking and trying to obstruct every single plan that president biden and democrats are putting forward at every

turn. because they want inflation to be high because they think it is a winning issue for them going to the midterms. we have to draw the contrast. look, i'm glad you guys are talking about what democrats can do with the time we have left before the midterms. we do need some more points on that board. senator manchin, whether folks like it or not, he is in the driver's seat on a lot of this legislation. i think the biden administration would like to see congress come together on lowering prescription drugs. they'd like to see congress expanding pre-k access. whatever we can find, climate change, of course, addressing climate change, whenever we can get medium ground, we need to get that legislation passed. because as lemire just said, you can't let perfect be the enemy of the good. we have a finite amount of time left, where not only do we have time to get this done before the midterms, but when congress is actually in session. i do hope we can find some compromise on some of these big pieces of legislation. you know, again, we have a good

story to tell. we just have to go out there and sell it to the american people. >> all right. supreme court justices -- >> i want to add one more thing. >> one more thing? >> little more toothpaste? >> democrats need to quote aristotle. >> oh. >> republicans, these great republicans, craziest shit house around. >> you can't do that. you can say that once and -- >> this illiberalism that wants to chase the classics from western civilization, i've had enough. i won't apologize for quoting greek philosophers. >> i thought it was bert reynolds. >> i do think adrienne would agree. >> it was bert talking to -- >> i think you're talking about simplifying things. >> the laugh that dom deloise had. >> that's crazy, right? >> i'm telling you, i do mean

this, if i were on the campaign trail, i would just -- oh, and they said this. look at this. they actually believe, y'all, they actually believe there are jewish space lasers. the person talking about -- >> is who you're going to depend on for your future. >> oh, look at this. i'd go down the list. i'm telling you, it would be an hour after hilarity. i'm telling you, i'd go from town hall meeting to town hall. no, no, this is funny. except for the fact these people want to run your republic. they're crazy. then i'd do the aristotle quote. i always find when you elevate people with the classics, it makes them feel like they're part of something bigger. >> yeah. >> that's all we want to do. >> yeah. >> we want to get that buy-in.

this is not just about us. this is about western civilization. >> elevate the discourse. >> that's what we does. >> i'm on board for that. >> thank you. >> no, but seriously, crazy. >> yeah. >> in the french election, le pen, you look at the polls. willie knows exactly what i'm going to say. one of the reasons why our bookies put it at that percentage. macron is arrogant. le pen understands how we live better, but she's crazy. we continue vote for her. that's the democrats' best path forward. >> look, i think one way or the other, that in a lot of these cases, a lot of these senate seats, that an effective argument that goes to some extent crazy, some extent extreme, and some extent talking about issues republicans are just out of step with what the

mainstream wants. roe is a good example of that. there are many others. you can go for comedy. you do go for tragedy. if they can't figure out a way to make it clear to voters in places, again, like pennsylvania, places where democrats can win statewide elections. it's been demonstrated they can. if they can't make the case against the candidates, it'll be as much on them as anybody. these are not layups in this national environment, as jonathan said. this is a typical environment for democrats to run in, but some of the candidates are pretty extreme and out of step on 70% issues. if you can't make those arguments and make the sale on them, you're -- >> all right. we're at the half hour, and no more shots for you. what the -- how many have you had? >> five. >> there's a -- this is going to be a very, very jittery, long morning. >> what were you watching on youtube last night? >> this is crazy. what's wrong with you? who gave him this? >> four hour show. >> look at this.

>> it's a four-hour show. >> my god. okay. >> the show goes on for four hours. >> this is -- we're going to be talking to douglas murray. >> yes. >> later on, he talks about the war on the west. i know exactly what he needs. i'm being attacked. >> we need to go to break. >> for quoting aristotle. >> no. >> that cheapens the discourse. >> you need to krazy glue yourself to the set. [ laughter ] supreme court justices today are expected to meet for the first time since the leak of the draft opinion that would overturn roe. the justices will meet in private for a conference in which they typically discuss cases and work to finalize opinions. that's going to be awkward. "politico," which broke the story about the draft opinion, now reports that, so far, none of the conserative justices who sided with samuel alito have switched their votes. that, to date, his majority

opinion remains the only opinion in circulation. chief justice roberts -- >> by the way, do you think if anybody changed their opinion they'd tell anybody at this point? >> no. >> i wouldn't tell a soul. i'd go to roberts. roberts, did you ever see all the presidents, man? yeah, i'll meet you in that parking lot. we'll talk about the concurring opinion. >> chief justice roberts said the supreme court's marshall would investigate the source of the original leak. this latest reporting indicates the leak has yet to be plugged. let's bring in state attorney for palm beach attorney, dave aronberg, who has been digging into what justice alito's draft decision overturning roe v. wade would mean for legislation in various states. >> so, dave, we were talking about the extremism of the republican party. you know, you go nationwide with roe v. wade, and you start breaking off in certain directions. those numbers start going to 50/50 pretty quickly. however, when you start talking about louisiana, mississippi,

alabama, florida, what they started doing on rape and incest, not letting a 13-year-old girl raped by a member of the family actually make a decision on what she is going to do in that tragedy, those numbers start dipping. can you -- i know you've dug into this. i know you've talked constitutional law. can you take us through the states and what this would mean if roe were overturned in cases like that? >> yeah, joe. there are 13 states that enacted what are called trigger laws, which are laws that would automatically overturn any abortion rights. it'd make it illegal if and when roe v. wade is overturned. only 5 of the 13 states are there exceptions for rape and incest. that's really troubling. in all 13 of those states, they would allow exceptions in cases when the mother's life is at stake. one concern with these trigger laws, joe, is that they're so

vague and they can have so many unintended consequences. some states with trigger laws like kentucky, tennessee, and arkansas that define embryos as unborn children at the moment of fertilization. this could criminalize ivf clinics. it'd take one overly aggressive prosecutor, one of my counterparts in another state, to threaten arrest, then you'll see these fertility clinics close up and move elsewhere. maybe close up for good. so even though justice alito says his ruling would not reach beyond abortion, there are plenty of unintended and intended consequences to be found. >> yeah. you know, if i didn't see florida on that map, hasn't florida passed legislation that actually makes it a crime -- or that doesn't allow abortion even with the exception -- no

exceptions for rape and incest? >> florida passed a mississippi style bill. this is a law that says abortions would be illegal after 15 weeks with no exceptions for rape or insist. this is florida, a state that you and i come from. we were elected officials from. we are not like mississippi, but we are vulnerable because we have a governor who is running for president in the maga lane. we're facing those consequences. he's in an arms race with governor abbott of texas. they're trying to out do each other. yes, if and when the supreme court overturns roe v. wade, florida's law would go in effect that criminalizes abortion after the 15th week with no exceptions for rape or incest. >> john. >> dave, back to the example about ivf a second ago, the example that popped into my mind is the morning after pill. those states, with that law you talked about, where the life

begins at the moment of fertilization, would that mean the morning after pill or anybody who used it potentially would be in violation of the law on the books? >> you know, it could, john. it really could. these trigger laws are so vague. this is like once you take away the right to choose, then all these other states can just start imposing more and more aggressive restrictions. yeah, there is nothing to stop them. it'd go back up to the supreme court, say whether you can ban the morning after pill. contraception is a real issue here. justice alito believes in his draft opinion, that abortion is different. that's why he singles it out, because it involves a termination of human life. but that is a religious view, not a scientific one. under alito's reasoning, there is a short and slippery slope to allowing bans on contraception. many people believe that contraception takes away human life. also, alito's draft only cares

about the rights of the fetus. it says nothing about the rights of women or women's autonomy. say what you want about roe v. wade. at least it tried to balance fetal life and women's autonomy. by erasing women from the equation, alito's draft takes us back to a much more enlightened era or dystopian "handmaid's tale" future. >> dave aronberg, thank you so much. adrienne elrod, thank you, as much, getting up early for us. ahead on "morning joe," development from finland, as leaders rush to join nato in the wake of the russian invasion of ukraine. saying it must apply for membership without delay. plus, pentagon press secretary john kirby will join us amid reports the white house is trying to stop leaks about intel sharing with ukrainian forces. also ahead, inflation is

still running near a 40-year high, but some analysts think the latest data suggests it has peaked. we'll dive into those new numbers. we'll look at the gender gaps in voting and motivation ahead of the midterm elections this year. we'll be back with much more "morning joe." l be back with mue "morning joe." bipolar depression. it made me feel trapped in a fog. this is art inspired by real stories of bipolar depression. i just couldn't find my way out of it. the lows of bipolar depression can take you to a dark place. latuda could make a real difference in your symptoms. latuda was proven to significantly reduce bipolar depression symptoms and in clinical studies,

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the real oz. >> he is a wonderful leader, scientist. >> working with china. >> i love working in china.

>> challenging your beliefs about what it means to be male or female. how do we keep guns out of the wrong person's hands? the greatest national security threat that we have is obesity. we haven't had any interaction with president trump at all. >> mehmet oz, a complete and total fraud. >> oh, my god. >> who is running that ad? >> well, the mccormick ad. that was the first mccormick ad after trump endorsed oz. >> it is not not true. >> of course it is all true. >> incredible, there's literally nothing that -- >> he's all over the place. >> all the hot buttons of what people in maga world hate. >> you can run these same actual ads about jd vance. san francisco, silicon valley people, they're my kind of people. the best and the brightest come to silicon valley. oh, i -- >> never trump. >> donald trump, christians shouldn't support donald trump. it sends the wrong message. you could do the same ad for jd

vance. truth doesn't matter. it doesn't matter. >> maybe in pennsylvania it'll open the door for someone trumpier to be the nominee. >> joining us now, professor at princeton university, eddie glaude jr. former treasury official and analyst steve rattner. steve is here to talk about inflation. to the point we were making about the republican candidates, it is all the more reason why democrats need such clarity in their message. it has to be so clear, what they're talking about. it can't be muddled because the republicans are crazy and all over the place. you can make that -- you can make that contrast. >> well, joe had a -- >> i'm not sure inflation -- >> -- clear message. >> aristotle message is clear. they're liars. that's obviously clear. oz -- i mean, you look at it. it is obvious. >> complete and total fraud. >> you look at jd vance. it is obvious. you just look at kevin mccarthy. donald trump is on the take. from vladimir putin, donald

trump is responsible for january 6th. donald trump needs to apologize, et cetera. willie, they're liars. it's obvious. >> it's obvious. >> fraud is the word in that ad, and that is the word. i mean, do you believe in these people, these candidates who believe in nothing, apparently, who are happy to stand up there and be a vessel and repeat the donald trump talking points without being donald trump? do you not look at what they've said in the past? you think they believe what they're saying to you? or is it enough that they're famous, you've seen them on tv, and they're parroting and echoing the right things from donald trump? i don't know if that works statewide. i mean, it works with a certain percentage of the population who says you must repeat what donald trump says or else, but there is a big old state out there in pennsylvania. >> i'm worried about inflation and democrats hanging their hat on being the solution to inflation. i don't think -- well, we can ask steve, but i'm not sure one person, one country, one party can solve this problem with everything that's happening around the world. >> politically, eddie, people

aren't going to vote on crazy if they can't pay for groceries, if they're having trouble with gas. obviously, you've got to do two things at once. but it is those pocketbook issues. more than roe, more than vance being a liar and being crazy. more than oz being a liar and being crazy, you've got to connect the dots. >> you have to walk and chew gum at the same time. you have to talk about the crude and cynical pursuit of power where these folks will morph into anything they think they need to be to hold on to power, and you have to speak to the conditions of everyday, ordinary people, how they're living, what they're experiencing, the pain they're experiencing. if you just fall back on what was as the answer, or you don't reach for -- this is going back to an earlier conversation -- if you don't respond at scale to the experiences they're having, they're going to be cynical about your response, too. >> steve rattner, joe biden has

been traveling the country, trying to show he understands the problem out there, empathizing with it, but is inflation here to stay? >> inflation is here to stay. but we had some mixed news in the numbers yesterday, and i can take you through it. yeah, joe biden is all over this. he knows this is the defining issue in the midterm elections. and his control over the senate and the house. >> steve, you have charts. >> i have a few. >> can you please share it? the kids are up. >> kids are up. had their coffee. >> in front of the tv set. they're eating their lucky charms and cheerios. ready to go. >> screaming "charts, charts, charts." >> all right. let's start at charts. look, there was mixed news yesterday, and we can start with the good news. which is inflation may have peaked. >> do you believe that? >> interesting. >> i would put three lines under "may," but it's possible. you're getting better and better yearly comparisons. you see the turquoise circle in the upper right-hand corner.

it dipped last month from 8.5% to 8.3%. economists. >> reporter: were hoping for better, but it raises the possibility of it having peaked. more dramatically, the chart on the right looking at month to month rather than year to year, you can see it was the smallest increase since last august, after a 1.2% increase the month before. it was only a 0.3% increase in august. that's the good news. let's look at what we should worry a little bit about on the next chart, which dives into gasoline prices. gasoline is what has been driving a lot of this -- no pun intended -- a lot of this inflation as well as the increases. on the left, you can see march gasoline added 0.3%. two-thirds of the inflation in march was from gasoline. april, gasoline prices dipped a bit. that is part of why inflation came down.

if you take gasoline out of the equation, which are the next two bars toward the middle of the screen, you can see without gasoline, the cpi was up 0.4%. >> gasoline is back up, right? >> we'll come to back. 0.4% versus 0.6%. on the right, you can see exactly joe's point. when the april survey was taken, gasoline had kind of dipped down for a little while. it is now back up, as i heard willie say earlier, $4.40 a gallon, a new high. i was actually in california earlier this week, and i -- you know, without even needing to go to the gas station but driving along, you see $6.50 gasoline, station after station. california is a special case. >> you didn't pump your own gas? >> i didn't on this day. usually i do. >> did you inspect the gas being pumped for you and look at the prices? >> you just have to drive down a street, and you just see it.

it's like a poster in front of you, every step of the way. >> i just -- >> tinted window, i must put it down to take a look. >> i enjoy so much the opportunity, pumping my own gas. >> all right. >> here we go. okay. all right. now -- >> let's go to exxon. >> i do want to give -- look, the president has been blaming everything except himself and the democrats for the inflation. >> this worries me. >> everything. >> yeah. >> he has at least one point on his side, which is it is a worldwide phenomenon. look at this last chart, a chart the white house can make some use of. yes, we have the highest inflation among major countries in the world, but you can see there's a bunch of others not far behind us. germany just reported its highest inflation in, i think, really decades yesterday. 7.8%. almost as high as ours. you can see the uk, canada, so on. now, the europeans have a

tougher challenge than we do because of energy. energy has gone up much more there than it's gone up here. it is a fact that it is a worldwide phenomenon. though in our case, there is self-inflicted pain that we've put on ourselves with too much stimulus, too big budget deficits and bond buying by the federal reserve, too much money printing by the federal reserve, and that's coming home to roost. it is the number one issue, and it'll be a tough one for the democrats. >> steve, the fed stepped in, half point lifting of the rate. probably do it again in july. beyond that, what else stems this? this isn't going to go down in a meaningful way by november. we're still be paying a lot of money for gas and groceries. i may tick down, but it's still going to be dominant in people's lives. >> most economists say it is 4.5%, maybe 5% in the fall. the president is talking about meat prices and hearing aid

prices, big companies and all this stuff. it's not going to have meaningful -- if he has to show he is trying, but it is not going to have meaningful effect on inflation between now and the fall. it'll be what it is because so much is built in. airline prices were up 19% last month. >> looking at your last chart, is there a message for biden, you know, toward the midterms and beyond that, you know, he is establishing global stability with ukraine, with covid, with nato, with all of our partners, and, therefore, will help establish economic stability? >> it is a worldwide phenomenon, and it is happening because we're getting out of covid. as steve says in the united states, we have $2 trillion sitting on the sideline. a lot of people who are ready to spend that money. they're starting to spend that money. that is driving prices up. you do have the war going on with russia and ukraine. energy prices, obviously, you're soaring because of that. it'll continue to soar because of that, especially in europe. the trend lines are probably going to keep going up, even if

ours start to go down a little bit. the third thing, of course, is china's insane covid policy. >> right. >> of course, it's screwed up y a -- >> can i add one more thing? >> yeah. >> food. it is a huge problem. >> worse with ukraine now. >> it is because of ukraine. ukraine is the bread basket of the world. it is the largest wheat exporter in the world. something like 20 million tons of wheat and storage in ukraine they can't figure how to get out. this will be a huge problem in the emerging world. you are going to see famine. you are going to see unbelievable food crisis in parts of the world because of ukraine. >> steve, when i hear republicans saying, oh, it is biden's policies that led to this inflation, i know it's a lie. but let's, thoug -- if i'm a republican candidate and i'm campaigning, i say, "steve, i want to tell the truth on the campaign trail, unlike all my

other trump republican brothers and sisters," what can i blame biden for as it relates to this -- as it relates to inflation? i'm asking that question because let's get real here, okay? you and larry summers were warning the biden administration to stop spending money. you were warning democrats to stop spending money. and you guys were just absolutely trashed by other economists. i won't use their names, but they're the same people that said for 20 years, there's such thing as a free lunch. you said no, the chickens are going to come home to roost. so that being said, do you point to the covid relief bill? because before that, everything was bipartisan. >> yeah. look, i think you would basically say that biden wanted to spend us into inflation. you had the $1.9 trillion american rescue plan, which was passed early in his administration. which handed out a bunch of stimulus checks. >> no republican votes on that. >> no republican vote on that.

which, candidly, i think most economists at this point would say was putting a bit of gasoline on a fire starting to rage. that would be your centerpiece. remember, biden wanted to propose another $6.5 trillion. >> he didn't, though. >> you asked me -- >> no, no, no, what i'm asking, what is he responsible for? his words didn't fuel inflation. the $1.9 trillion bill, now i'm going to be a lawyer. all right. look at covid. look at the $2 trillion on the sidelines. look at the war. look at the increased energy prices. look at the supply chain chaos. then look at this $1.9 trillion bill. what percentage of those lines, of that 8.1% inflation, what percentage would you say the $1.9 trillion bill was responsible for? >> the $1.9 trillion bill by itself, a small percentage. >> yeah, take that out. we're at 7%, 7.5%. maybe the difference between

where we are and europe is. >> the other piece of the puzzle, though, is the federal reserve. the federal reserve went crazy. they were trying to save the country during the pandemic. they were trying to risk doing too much rather than too little. >> it is not biden's fault. >> we're getting into the weeds. not biden's fault, but jay powellreappointed, which he's gotten reappointed. one could imagine wanted to make the white house happy. >> possible. again, this exercise, we're doing this for a reason here. it is because -- so when you hear on the campaign trail, whether you're a republican or democrat, people blaming others for inflation, so much of this is out of the hands of biden. >> look -- >> i don't think -- >> there is percentage -- i'm trying to figure out which percentage is it. one covid relief bill, that was a democratic bill only, seems to be the cause of maybe a half percent of inflation? >> jimmy carter didn't cause the

inflation in the '70s either but it didn't work out well. >> that's what i mean. >> we're just talking about the truth of it. we're trying to get to the truth here, john heilemann. >> i think with the biden administration, they'd say in response, and steve would agree with this, at the time, it seemed to be overkill, given the persistence of covid thereafter, given the delta surge, the omicron surge, now maybe another 100 million cases coming this fall, you know, which doesn't take away steve's point about -- that you can contribute some some percentage of inflation to the bill, but there is another argument. looked like overkill in april of 2021. as we sit heading into the fall of 2022 with successive waves of covid still hitting the country, you could make a policy argument that, you know, it was necessary. covid hadn't come to an end in the spring of last year. it's still rolling out and hitting country now. >> you can make the argument. as a policy matter, it is not a very strong argument. >> again, i think --

>> wow. >> as a political argument, maybe you can make the argument, that you needed the bill because covid was coming. >> housing, steve, in ten seconds or less. >> oh, my. >> up, up, up. remember, mortgage rates are over 5%. the highest in a long time. >> that's a lot. >> what's called the affordability index, what people can pay for housing, is at an all-time low, which is bad. you have high housing prices still and high mortgage rates, which means when people calculate how much of a mortgage can i afford and what house does that buy me, the news is not good. that's another issue. >> huge issue. >> by the way, we're talking about all of this spending. bizarre side note. the last month, the largest federal surplus in u.s. history. over $350 million surplus. >> okay. nothing makes sense. steve rattner, thank you very much. eddie, we'll have you come back in a little bit. appreciate it.

>> nothing make sense. should be the subtitle of the show every day. >> hang my hat on inflation. coming up, russia is turning to hypersonic weapons in ukraine. more on this artillery straight ahead. pentagon secretary john kirby will join the table in just two minutes. y will join thn just two minutes

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peaceful finland, the distant northern country of lakes and fjords, summer beaches has been invaded. the long crisis of futile negotiation with moscow ended in attack overwhelmingly. the soviet nation has been threatened by finland. the russian air force, probably the biggest in the world, fears for its very existence. and the red sea, no doubt, has

been menaced by finland's three ships. >> sarcasm. >> dramatic move from finland overnight as leaders say they'll apply for nato membership without delay. this morning, we have new reaction from the kremlin. plus, there are several other major headlines from the war in ukraine, including talk of a russian annexation. the first war crimes trial announced against a russian soldier. the u.s. confirms moscow's use of hypersonic weapons. and new reporting on u.s. guidelines concerning intel sharing with ukraine. jonathan lemire is still with us. contributor mike barnicle joins the conversation. along with willie, joe, and me. also here at the table, pentagon press secretary, retired rear admiral john kirby. great to have you with us. >> great to have you here. >> morning. >> yesterday, we saw the prime minister of great britain give

assurances to sweden and finland. that seemed like a precursor for what we're now hearing from finland. so we had asked the producers to pull that reel just to give people a bit of history about how big this is. >> yeah. >> barnicle and i can remember, you can remember, i'm serious, the cold war, the finlandization of this country or that country. meaning they stay completely neutral, lest they have the soviets invading them. talk about how big of a deal this is. >> it is historic, no question about that. for finland and also, you know, potentially for nato here. mr. putin, one of the things he said he didn't want was a strong nato in his western flank. he's getting that. it's actually growing in strength. it is growing in deterrence capability. look, i won't get ahead of the alliance and finland, but if they join it, that's another nation here. >> finland and sweden, man --

>> they're both serious. >> -- they're military assets. >> modern militaries. they may be small, but they are powerful. they have terrific capabilities. they're already sort of using nato-standard kind of equipment and systems. integrating them into the alliance would not be very difficult at all. in fact, i mean, we routinely operate and train with the fins and the swedes. interoperability will be seamless. >> finland's leaders say the country must join the nato alliance, quote, without delay. in a joint statement this morning, the country's president and prime minister said, quote, membership would strengthen finland's security. the leaders also said that they hope the steps needed to make this decision will be taken rapidly, within the next few days. the statement comes just days after the finnish government

submitted a report in parliament, saying nato is one of its options for national security. however, moscow is hitting back, saying finland's move to join nato is, quote, definitely a threat to russia and would not make europe or the world a safer place. it is expected that finland will be given a quick asession into the military alliance along with sweden. finland, which shares an 830-mile long border with russia, has traditionally been militarily neutral and had good relations with the kremlin. the war in ukraine has led it to rethink its security, willie. >> absolutely. just your assessment, admiral, about how this is going. we got from the foreign ministry of russia a couple days ago this rosy sort of assessment, things are going well in the donbas. we're making great strides. pentagon expressed skepticism. what is your honest view of the way their new, over the last

couple weeks, invasion in the east is going? >> incremental progress at best. they're meeting a stiff ukrainian resistance in the donbas, willie. you're seeing trades of towns and villages, a couple a day almost, barth. back and forth. over the last 48 hours, the russians made small progress, particularly around popasna, the eastern part of the donbas region. they try to move from the north down, down from izyum and moving toward slovyansk. they're being hit by ukrainian resistance, which is very stiff. they're also weary of going too far ahead of the supply lines. remember we were they were out in front of themselves in kyiv, they're trying to remember from that. you're not seeing them go aggressively very far, because they don't want to get too far ahead of their food and fuel. >> internally, russia had a series of events that caused more than a few ripple of an earthquake in the kremlin, both

militarily and diplomatically. now with finland and sweden on the verge of joining nato perhaps. we keep hearing there's been no communication from the top levels of the pentagon with the top levels militarily in russia. is that still the case? if it is still the case, what's the level of apprehension in washington about no communication? >> still the case but not for lack of trying. i mean, we continue to make an effort to reach out to top russian leadership. we think right now, and frankly it has been the last two months, is exactly the time we should have having top communications with them about what's going on. it's not for lack of trying. we'll keep trying to do that, to talk to senior russian leaders. as for what is the concern, i mean, it is exactly without having that ability to have a dialogue with them about what we're seeing and trying to get them to do the right thing here. you know, this war could keep going on and on and on. and i think as the efforts now become concentrated on a smaller geographic area, particularly the donbas, a part of the

country where the ukrainians and russians have been fighting now for eight years, both know the terrain, both of them know the roads, the railways, the towns, the villages. this could become a bit of a long slog. you're already starting to see a heavy reliance on artillery. this is why we're sending howitzers in. long-range fires in a flat open area, much like kansas, that's important. you're seeing both sides use that. when you start getting into an artillery duel, that's what this ends up becoming, it could end up being a longer conflict than i think anybody wants. >> we're a couple days beyond victory day. we heard from vladimir putin then. he didn't make any big pronouncements. >> right. >> as you and the pentagon assess what he said, what hidden messages -- was there anything this that he did say that worried you? >> the thing that concerned us was the maximalist rhetoric. he kept referring to getting rid of nazis in ukraine, which is a ridiculous claim. but he might believe that. or if he doesn't believe it, he wants his people to believe

that. so he's still couching the war in these very broad, almost strategic tones, even though from a realistic perspective, it's really just a tactical fight there in the donbas. and you heard the director of national intelligence testify to this earlier this week. what we don't know is does he just focus on the donbas in the east and south and call it a day, or does he want to move elsewhere, farther, bigger goals inside ukraine? when he talks about neo-nazis and nazis in ukraine -- >> i mean, do they have the capability of doing that though, admiral? i mean, they haven't been able to nail down the donbas for six, seven years. >> they have definitely struggled. >> they have the capability of killing innocent civilians with dumb weaponry. >> they do, and they are. >> do they have thepanding else? >> you have to remember, they

have a numerical advantage. they outnumber the ukrainians in forces. they certainly have a lot of capabilities left. i would go so far, of the amassed power mr. putin had available pre-february 24th, he has a lot left. >> tell us what you're hearing again. there are reports that russian soldiers are refusing to fight and follow orders. >> we continue to get indications mostly out of the donbas fighting. not only junior enlisted soldiers but some officers are disobeying orders, refusing to fight. i mean, they still have unit cohesion and morale issues. they have command and control issues. >> why are they so bad? >> i think it is because they invested over the last 20, 30 years in high-end capabilities. they brag about that all the time. we know they've used hypersonic missiles, for instance, in ukraine. but what they never did was change their doctrine. they didn't go after their operational concepts. they don't have a non-commissioned officers corps.

they don't encourage initiative on the battlefield. this is why you have generals who are actually on the battlefield. that would not happen in a modern western military. >> they have strength in numbers. >> do you remember, mike, during the iraq war in afghanistan, we would have people -- we would have vets that would come back from there and, to us, they'd look like kids. these were people that our military would send into towns saying, you need to give them some sanitary, you know, water supply. you need to go and fix this for the village. you need to go in and fix that for the village. they would send these young soldiers, young marines in. you know, they didn't -- nothing top-down about it. they had to go in and figure out with their unit how to do it. that's something that we have.

the russians just don't have. >> you're talking about the difference between two elements of two different nations, the training of their military. i mean, the russian military, i think admiral kirby would bear this out, is a vertical unit, from the top on down. there's nothing in between. our military depends largely, once in the field, whether it's the field of battle or building a road outsioutside a city, whe it is, the russians don't have it. >> so the do ukrainians. thanks to eight years of training by the united states, canada, britain, other allies, the ukrainian military transformed itself from a soviet style, top-down military, to a western style. how they demonstrate leadership on the battlefield, integrate elements, air, ground, sea, they're a much more capable force. that's not by accident. we're focused on the systems, but they are a different military. >> one of the things joe mentioned is critical. young soldiers, whether

americans in afghanistan, iraq, or young russians, whether in the donbas, the other day, vladimir putin made reference to the debt, in his speech, of the dead. he clearly wears world war ii every single day of his life. that's his reference. that was his reference partially to the dead. what do we know of the casualty levels that the russians are taking? >> we don't have a very specific fingertip feel, mike. we do know they've taken a not insignificant number of casualties. they have. both sides have. this has been a bloody war. it is difficult for us to know with granularity how many they had. i think it was extraordinary, back to your question, i do think it was extraordinary he mentioned that. up until now, they have not been willing to acknowledge the fact they've taken casualties and not every russian soldier in ukraine is going to come back to his parents. that was not -- i mean, that was

noteworthy. >> the house passed $40 billion worth of new aid a couple nights ago. >> yes. >> senate looks like it'll push it through. that is an awful lot of money. >> it is. >> this war, as general milley has said, could go on for a very long time. is the united states, is the pentagon prepared to be in this for the long haul? concerns you hear from president zelenskyy and ukrainian leaders is losing the world's interest. if the people of america, europe, tune out a little bit, can they summon the political will and the capital to continue to support? could we go on for years helping ukraine? >> i think president biden has been very clear, we're going to stay at this as much as we can, as fast as we can. the supplemental request he asked for, and they added money to it, is a sign of our commitment to doing that. we believe that the funds that are supplemental, economic and humanitarian assistance, that'll get us largely through the rest of this year. a lot depends on the ukrainians and their consumption rate. this supplemental will give us

about $8 million more of drawdown authority, to take stuff from our stocks and give it to the ukrainians, which we're doing every single day. that's great. but it'll largely depend on their consumption rate. how fast are they going through this? if this becomes a prolonged conflict, yes, we want to make sure we're prepared to help. >> ukraine is proposing to release russian prisoners in exchange for the evacuation of wounded soldiers inside the steel plant in mariupol. the country's deputy prime minister yesterday said negotiations are under way to allow the seriously injured fighters to leave through a humanitarian corridor. in return, captured russians would be handed over to the kremlin. moscow has not just responded. local officials say hundreds of injured ukrainian fighters are holed up inside the sprawling complex which has become the last bastion of resistance in the city. russian forces continue to batter the factory.

this video shows a massive explosion at the mill yesterday. an aide to the city's mayor said, quote, if there is hell on earth, it is right there. jonathan lemire. >> admiral, give us an update, if you know more of the status of that. i want to go back to something you noted in passing. the russians used a hypersonic missile. what does that mean? how worried should we be? >> hypersonic is basically a cruise missile that goes at many times the speed of sound. it's extraordinarily fast. it can maneuver. so it's hard to defeat it with air defense. typical conventional defense systems won't be successful against a hypersonic missile. you heard secretary austin and general milley talk about this. they've used several now in ukraine. they're hitting fixed targets, which, again, is not unusual for

a hypersonic missile, but it is not clear why they feel they needed them. ukrainian air defenses weren't going to be much of a defense against them anyway. we think that some of this is he is sending a signal to the west that he has this capability. you need to be mindful of that, that i have this. i can use it. it could be that he is also sending a signal to the ukrainians, as well, about their prospects for further resistance. it is just not a game-change ere. it hasn't changed the face of the war, the hypersonic missiles. in fact, they haven't proven, either using them or precision-guided musicians to be -- munitions to be accurate. it is not clear they're hitting what they want to hit. in mariupol, the fighters in the steel plant are resisting. you can tell the russians know they don't have mariupol by the fact they keep hitting mariupol. they're hitting mariupol more and more with dumb bombs. not the high precision stuff.

because they're beginning to experience some shortages in the inventory after their precision-guided munitions. >> i was going to ask about that. how many hypersonic missiles go they have? how many precision-guided weapons do they still have? are they running short on it? it seems, if you just follow what's been happening over the past eight weeks, they seem to be running short. i mean, how long can -- i keep asking this question because i hear this is going to be a long, drawn out war, but with the economic sanctions, with the continued losses on the battlefield, i just -- you know, it is much easier for vladimir putin to lie to his people a month from now declaring victory than it will be a year from now. >> he has a lot of his munitions left. i don't want to underestimate the firepower he has available to him. >> what does one of the hypersonic missiles cost for a country that is economically wrecked? >> i mean, they're very, very

expensive systemsystems. >> they're prioritize. >> right. look, we know he's expended a lot of precision-guided missiles the last 75 days of this war. no question about that. we do see signs that he is running up against defense industrial-based problems of his own. some of the components that go into pgms, precision guided missiles, he can't get because of the sanctions and the export controls the united states and west put on him. so he has gone through a lot. he's trying to replenish. we think he is struggling to do that because of the economic pressure that's been put on him. remains to be seen how long he'll go back to consumption rate. it depends how much he is using every day. >> to joe's point, director hanes in testimony said if he wins in the donbas, he'll keep going. what capability has he shown that he can keep going? he wanted kyiv out of the gate, was pushed out of there. >> yeah. >> what have you seen in the last three months that tells you putin could launch a new invasion of ukraine in a

different way that failed last time? >> it is not clear. it is not clear he can, willie. i mean, he didn't succeed in kyiv. in the south. now he concentrated 100 tactical battalion groups in the donbas alone, and he is still not making a lot of strategic objectives, it is largely like a town and village here. so we have to be mindful that he could, could try to go beyond the donbas. right now, he can't even get that. so it is not clear, you know, whether he will be able to and have the will and the capability to move elsewhere into ukraine. look, you have to hand it to the ukrainians. >> yeah. >> they're stopping them almost every turn.chieved strategic objectives. the white house controlling what is shared with ukraine to further invoke russia. two restrictions on the kinds of information the u.s. can share. the first prohibits the passing of information that would help

to kill russian leadership. the second bans any intelligence sharing that would help ukraine carry out attacks inside of russia. obviously, this is off the reporting from nbc news last week that we talked to you about, about the sinking of the "moskva," and then some "new york times" reporting before that about taking out russian leaders. last week on this show, you said those kind of leaks were, quote, unconscionable. can you tell us more about these steps? >> i wouldn't describe these steps that were reported as necessarily new. i don't want to get into exactly what the parameters are for the intelligence we share. we can all understand why we wouldn't want to do that. but the information we're giving the ukrainians, it is timely and relevant, but it is also legal and it is limited. i mean, we've got to be careful. we always are careful, but we want to make sure that we're giving them the kinds of information that they need to do their job. i think, you know, in addition to the systems that have been flowing into their hands, in addition to the training they continue to get on many of the

systems, this information, this intelligence is proving pivotal in their ability to defend themselves. but the less said about it, hon egshone honestly, the better. >> you mentioned the artillery fights going on. can the ukrainians attack internally in russia? >> what i'd tell you, mike, is we're giving them information and capabilities to defend themselves. what they do with that information, that's up to them. obviously, we don't want to see this conflict escalate and get any worse than it already is. we've already said that nobody stands to gain from a war between the united states and russia. that would flat out just support putin's narrative, right, that this is the west versus russia. >> right. >> it is not. it is russia versus ukraine. we don't want to see it escalate. look, we're not making these decisions for the ukrainians. we give them the best information we can to help them defend themselves. what they do with that, the decisions they make, the actions

they take, that's up to them. >> pentagon press secretary retired rear admiral john kirby, thank you. it is always good to see you. >> thank you, admiral. >> good to have you at the table. ahead on "morning joe," a senior member of the british cabinet who is playing a crucial role in the see seizure of jets yachts. remarkable plane landing. a passenger aboard a single seat took over after the pilot fell unconscious. this is my nightmare. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. you're watching "morning joe." you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.he uses thed for everything. i didn't want to deal with it. but aura digital security just dealt with it.

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inflation is skyrocketing. putin is out of control. brandon is asleep at the wheel. but the gop has a plan. and that plan is guns. to shoot our problems in the head. we're shooting at beer bottles. into the woods. at nancy pelosi impersonators. >> had enough of you. >> at dominion voting machines. >> i'm ron hanks, and i approve this message. >> this guy even has a cannon. >> fire! >> still technically a gun. we've got women with guns. kids with guns. old ladies with guns. evening, madame governor. >> high stepper. >> tv people with guns. >> when people say i won't support guns, they're dead wrong. >> oops. your republican party 2022.

suns out. guns out. >> wow. 29 past the hour. a new "politico" report reveals the january 6th committee has a trove of new emails from trump ally john eastman, which showed he urged pennsylvania lawmakers to throw away absentee ballots to give trump the lead. "politico" notes, per the exchange, eastman suggested that gop legislators could cite their concerns with pennsylvania's absentee ballot procedures, then use historical data to discount each candidate's totals by a pro rated amount based on the absentee percentage those candidates otherwise received. the january 6th select committee is fighting a legal battle with eastman in federal court in california to obtain hundreds of emails he sent and received via other previous employer, chapman

university. republican congressman tom rice seeking a sixth term in office made a debate last thursday about why the country needs accountability when it comes to january 6th. rice was one of ten republicans who voted to impeach then president donald trump following the deadly attack on the u.s. capitol. that vote has earned him trump's condemnation and a lost list of challengers trying to unseat him. rice defended his decision and called out the ypocrisy of his own party's leadership. >> democracy is a fragile thing. and the one thing that we have to protect us from tyranny is our constitution. our constitution has to be protected at all costs. our framers, to protect us against tyranny, set up a separation of powers, where the legislature makes laws but can't enforce them. the executive enforces laws but can't make them.

and the judiciary decides disputes. they wanted us, they charged us in the federal papers, each branch with jealously protecting their powers. because they knew that men were corrupt. if they had too much power concentrated in one place, that corruption would overwhelm them. my friends, i was there on january 6th. i wasn't absent. i was there. i saw the bomb squads diffusing bombs. i smell the tear gas. i was on the house floor when the glass was breaking. they were getting broken and pulled from the lines. when we got to the spot we were evacuated, fox news was on tv. i was getting calls from back here from friends at the news.

as i was talking to the news media back here, i was saying, where is the president? where is the president? where is the president? but he never came on. i knew he was going to come on and say the violence has got to stop, but he didn't for 4 hours. later, i asked my staff to pull the records on what he was doing at that time. he was sitting in his dining room next to the oval office proud that these people were ransacking the capitol, beating up the capitol police officers, he did nothing to stop it. in fact, 20 minutes after they were in the capitol, he tweeted out, "mike pence doesn't have courage." my friends, you can argue about whether his speech that morning was inciting or not, but, to me, that one tweet was incitement. if they'd have gotten ahold of mike pence, we could have lost our democracy that day.

so if -- in my opinion, my opinion is that our constitution is too precious to risk. the one difference between me and all those leaders back in washington who said, oh, donald trump went too far. he should be impeached. he should be removed and voted the other way, i took the principle stand and i defended our constitution. >> there you have it, john heilemann. so congressman tom rice voted with donald trump almost all the time. >> right. >> he was, you know, a trump supporter and republican who voted the way you'd expect him to. he took one vote that donald trump didn't like, and that was to impeach him because he led an attack on the united states capitol. for that, donald trump is now in the state. he's calling rice is a bad person, a fool, an atrocious rhino was the term he used about him. now he's got challengers because he dared to say that what

happened on january 6th was bad. >> yeah. >> this will be a good test case, see who wins. >> in 2012. district of south carolina, you have myrtle beach and that's not the charleston part of the state. you know, he's been making a forceful case for himself. he's not backed down. you know, you have a lot of liberals who like his videos on youtube when he attacks donald trump. but the south carolina republican party censured him. the establishment of republican politics of south carolina is against this guy, but he is a guy who basically is, like, i do not regret what i did. this will be a question for the case, a rational republican who heard that case and said, i like tom rice. he voted the way i like from 2013. he's been voting the way i like. is it donald trump personally who is going to kill that guy's career or not? >> yup. >> i don't know the answer, but it's a competitive race and he's

hanging on by his fingernails. >> yes, he can. sanford voted with trump 95% of the time. said a couple things donald trump didn't like. >> but didn't vote to impeach him. i think that's going to be the question. that was not in -- i agree, joe, that was an apostasy you could survive. the question now we're about to learn the answer to, and i don't know the answer to it, but whether it'll be voting to impeach donald trump, which the president made a litmus test, and the republican party is different in 2022 than it was back when mark sanford was winning the elections. we'll see what happens. he can survive. if he does, it'll be a big signal. >> i don't think he will. what's interesting is, where is the president? he was asking, where is the president? >> yeah. >> kevin was asking, where is the president? >> so was lindsey graham. >> lindsey graham enraged, "where is the president? where is the president?" members who later said, oh, they were just tourists that day.

you know, were helping the guards stopping the mob from breaking into the chamber, killing people, asking where the the president? everybody was asking it. you see, this is the crazy thing. i know people are like, this is madness. people like this tell the truth and then they lose in the primaries. but, you know, again, i'm always -- my wife thinks i'm far too optimistic. >> yeah. >> maybe i am far too optimistic. i do think january the 6th, even if people still win republican primaries, will forever keep donald trump from ever going to the white house again. because we operate by such small margins in this country, that he loses 2%, 3%, and he never gets there again. maybe he wins the republican -- you know, if the republicans are stupid enough to let a guy who lost the white house, the white house, and the senate for them back in, well, all right.

well, they just deserve minority status forever. but, eddie, the margins are so small now that you can see -- again, i go back to this. i'm sorry for saying it again. i love looking at those focus groups, people voted for biden and youngkin. they don't have a single nice thing to say about biden. they voted for youngkin. the last question s do you regret your vote for joe biden? nope. nope. i've never met one person who voted against donald trump that said, boy, i sure wish i had that vote back. even if they hate joe biden. >> right. >> they're on ron desantis or somebody else. >> whatever happens in this south carolina race, what that footage really revealed is the power of the narrative. i mean, what it suggests to me, about the public hearings of the january 6th committee, is that as they narrate each individual moment, as they draw out each particular detail, we saw with representative rice there, the power of that story.

the power of that visual. we're going to see something here. that was very powerful right there for me. whatever happens in the race, the public narration of january 6th will have an impact, i think. >> mike, do you know what the most damning moment is coming out of january, of all the things we've heard so far? the testimony to the january 6th commission from trump staffers, that while all hell was being let loose on the capitol, while the capitol police were getting the hell beaten out of them, while people were rubbing excrement on the walls and the floors. >> saying "hang the vice president." >> people people were saying, "hang the vice president," while donald trump was being begged by everybody around him to please call the mob off, donald trump, according to trump staffers, sat

inside his dining room right off the oval office, and he was watching this all unfold and then stopping and rewinding to watch the most violent parts and taking great, great pride in the fact that people would beat up police officers because he was too much of a loser to win a presidential election. >> yeah. you know, this country right now, today, faces enormous issues. enormous issues. obviously, the economy is on the minds of most people. inflation, the price of gas, groceries. worries about their children, their public schools, what's happening. the level of political correctness that sways one party, democrats largely. the war in ukraine. roe v. wade. all of those things. nothing is more paramount than saving this democracy.

i mean, tom rice's account of what happened that day is indeed powerful because he lays out the case. that gets us to the ultimate question, how is it so many, for so long, since january 6th remain walking free? >> well, and the ones at the top. the people who caused this. are we going to pretend it is a debate that donald trump caused the january 6th insurrection when he told everyone to go there, "i'll meet you there"? we make that a debate. he sits at his dining room as mar-a-lago now, while these people are, one by one, going to jail for him. >> according to ted cruz, i mean, this was nothing. >> and you have rudy giuliani that screamed about combat justice. you have donald trump that was pushing this well before the election. chris christie said he knew he

was going to lose, so he started talking about this privately in june. saying they're going to rig the election against me. we have to get that message out. >> publicly. >> at the republican convention, on stage, he said in his speech, he said there are two outcomes. outcome where i win, and an outcome where it's stolen. that's what he said from the white house. >> again, all the way back to iowa, the first race he ever ran. ted cruz beat him. what did he do? he just kept talking about how it was stolen from him. >> again, you get back to the persecution. we've had a number of people, ordinary citizens, swayed by propaganda, swayed by the influence that donald trump and what his tough guy rhetoric had on them. >> by the way -- >> it led them there. >> people who make millions and millions of money on primetime television are feeding lies every night. >> that's right. how sit a new york police officer, a farmer from iowa, take the trouble to go to washington to participate, to

save their democracy, to save president trump, to restore president trump, they get arrested. they get tried. they can get convicted. yet, the powerful, led by donald j. trump, he skates? >> that's his m.o. he dupes people and runs away. >> he always gets away with it. >> i know. >> he is always above the law. >> his entire life. >> whether in washington. >> bankruptcy court. >> manhattan d.a. willie, he always gets away with it. he is rolo temasy. >> what congressman rice said is indisputably true. a statement of fact, what happened that day. to mike's point, why are there so many people in this country who don't know it's true? is it because of the tv shows they're watching, the facebook feeds they follow, is it because of qanon? is it because they willfully want to believe something else? why is it when somebody else speaks that truth, from a

republican, a trump supporter through and through, now being attacked by donald trump, why is there a large swath of the country willing to believe the lies? >> cult following. coming up, demonstrations outside the homes of justices. republican senator tom cotton wants action taken against the protesters. actions that some members of cotton's own party say are going too far. we'll have more on that straight ahead. with access to financial advice, tools and a personalized plan that helps you build a future for those you love. vanguard. become an owner. time. it's life's most precious commodity, especially when you have metastatic breast cancer. when your time is threatened, it's hard to invest in your future. until now. kisqali is helping women live longer than ever before

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that's a beautiful live picture. it's 7:47 in the morning here in new york city. >> stunning. >> this morning, we have astounding new details on the nightmare scenario aboard a small plane. a passenger with no flight experience. >> come on, man. >> come on. >> had to sit down behind the controls when the pilot became incapacitated.

nbc news correspondent kerry sanders joins us live from ft. lauderdale with the latest. kerry, good morning. >> reporter: unbelievable story because they were in a plane like this one. in fact, i'll take you over here. this is a cessna 208. sometimes called a caravan. bring you up here into the cockpit. now, the passenger, darren harrison, he was in the backseat. he had to crawl over multiple rows to get up here into the cockpit where the pilot had slumped over. so the plane was in a steep dive. he had to pull the pilot off the controls, grab it, and then bring it out of that dive. then in the chaos of all of this, he had to find some headsets, put them on, and they were disconnected. he had to figure out where to plug them in. then call the tower for help. this morning, the men behind that mid-air mayday are still celebrating a perfect landing.

you're like a hero. >> i feel like a hero. i kind of feel like maybe i don't deserve it. >> reporter: bobby morgan is the air traffic controller and part-time flight instructor who called two passengers on board this single engine cessna 208 through a safe touchdown at palm beach international on tuesday after the original pilot fell unconscious. >> i have a serious situation here. my pilot is incoherent. >> reporter: harrison, who had no idea how to fly a plane, sprang into action as the aircraft took a nosedive over the atlantic. >> the pilot was slumped over on the controls, then he pushed him back. they get him out of his seat. they had to get on the controls and pull back the plane so that it'd climb up out of the dive it was in. >> reporter: eventually, harrison was able to determine the plane's air speed and altitude, allowing captain morgan to direct him through the dramatic descent.

>> you look great. you're a little fast. what i want you to do is grab the throttle, just pull that back a little bit. because we need you to be slowed down. >> you're teaching him to fly. >> basically. >> as he is flying. >> yeah. >> reporter: but the toughest stretch was still ahead. >> the emergency aircraft >> it disappears from radar leaving morgan anxiously waiting in darkness. >> everybody's holding. >> must have been no more than ten seconds. i kept trying to talk to him and he said i am on the ground. what do you want me to do now? how do you decide that? i was thinking thank god. >> did you say the passengers landed the airplane? >> that's correct. >> oh my god.

that's great. >> what a student. >> my best student ever. >> indeed. the air traffic controller who is the flight instructor known to many as captain morgan says at one point he thought he would divert the plane to the boca raton airport but then said no, palm beach international. it's wider run ways, longer run ways, and more fire rescue support if needed. none of that was needed before it was a perfect landing. >> no, no! >> we can't believe it. this is a nightmare. i am curious. we love you getting to the plane, your reenactment. while you were putting this together, did you try this yourself earlier this morning? >> i did not. but one of the interesting things was apparently while, okay, so we have bobby morgan,

the flight controller who is also now the teacher doing it all, he had never actually flown in this particular model of plane. so he did not know the controls. he got a print out picture of what it looked like so he could say i know what you are looking at. then he said tell me your altitude and everything else. these monitors according to darren were blacked out. they had gone black. he was like not only do i know how to fly but i can't even give you that data. somehow this remarkably worked. he was coming back from a fishing trip in the bahamas and he was wearing flip-flops as he did this. he had one extra motivation to get home, he told bobby, which is his wife is pregnant. >> oh my god! >> the flip-flop man like jimmy buffett. >> you said he had no flight

experience when he had to get behind the controls. out of curiosity, what does he do for a living? anything that would possibly relate to this? >> nothing. absolutely nothing. you heard how calm he was? you might think maybe he is a heart surgeon or something. he is vice president of an interior design company. i don't know the pressures in that world but he is really calm under pressure. >> wow, what a story. no one on television gives a better live shot. >> we love cary sanders. >> we get it. you are there. thank you. we have all been on these small planes. it always crosses your mind. there is one pilot. what happens? what happens if something happens to that guy? it's a lot to think about. it is an astounding story. >> i am the lightest person generally on the plane which is

worse because they stick me in the corner in the back. that's a long way to get to the throttle. >> a thrill. >> let's just move on. that was good. a small group of abortion rights supporters were outside of justice kavanaugh's home. the dozen or so demonstrators marched peacefully through the neighborhood twice. police were there as well. it is not clear if justice kavanaugh was home during the demonstrations. it's the second time in less than a week protesters have been outside his house in maryland. there was a larger crowd over the weekend. in response to the protest attorney general merrick garland directed u.s. marshall service to provide extra security to justices and their families. republican senator tom cotton says protection is not enough.

i sent a letter to attorney general calling for arrest and prosecution of protesters who demonstrate outside the homes of justices. cotton's request is getting push back from some members of his own party. a senator from wyoming told reporters, quote, we should all be airing in favor of first amendment, in favor of freedom of speech, in favor of freedom of religion, in favor of freedom of assembly. quote, i am a first amendment guy and i think that cuts both ways. if they're there doing it peacefully i am for either side of the political spectrum. >> consistency. we'll take it. member of a new york times editorial board, you have polls

interesting pertaining to the abortion debate and voting. i think in terms of protesting outside of homes of justices, impersonally not comfortable with it but it is a right. >> the thing is whether you are comfortable with it or not, like a harvard boy. >> double hear hard boy. harvard harvard. >> you would think they cover public law. >> i have a better education than these harvard boys that went to yale, harvard, harvard and they don't know the law. so many harvard boys who are populists but don't know the basic law. >> rights for me but not for thee i think is how that breaks

down. >> that's a harvard harvard quote. >> i went to barnard. the lady college. >> oh. >> i am a local elected official in new york, in westchester county. i have had people show up. it's not a great feeling. when you have people targeting your kids and your family, it's a line too far. of course they have right of assembly. i think there is a question about how voters are going to turn, particularly prochoice voters, will turn rage and frustration over this leak into action. generally we have an issue with this. we have seen depressed interest in turning out for mid-terms on the left. the most motivated are republican women and men. we have seen that in the polls

including ours leading to this recent decision. the abortion issue clearly is a motivator. we are seeing it is more of a driver to potentially vote among younger voters, women on the left, abortion supporters. the issue is we've got a coalition that put the democrats in the majority, house, senate, white house in the last election, not especially to the polls this cycle. younger voters do not see voting as most important way to exercise their voice on key issues. they don't think it matters as much as it should. that's a problem. >> mid-term elections have had voters who are older, wider, more conservative. i will say on the abortion issue i was surprised even in 2020, a presidential election, somebody like susan collins, who supported brett kavanaugh

after being prochoice for years, and not only that had a fund raiser with the head of the federalist society, embraced the federalist society and that wing. i did not think she would survive her election in maine. she won maine nine points in a state biden won. there is no evidence that the abortion issue had any impact on her race or any other race. >> that's all true, joe. i think the question now is whether the anticipation that the supreme court will in fact overturn roe v wade out right might change that calculus. nobody really knows of course until election day and primary day frankly as well. i think there are some signs at least in congressional primaries here in new york for example in a region that the mood has shifted, that democrats are awake, and i think realizing more is at stake than they thought.

>> awake and angry. >> what scares me in what you are finding is the devise between activism and voter engagement. talk about that. >> there is an interesting example when you look at the energy around organizing for unionizing driven by young voters. amazon votes, starbucks votes. it's interesting. young people are organizing a lot of this. when the polls, harvard iop, other polls ask do you see voting and elections as critical to progressing social movements, they basically say no. there is this real disconnect. younger voters were so key in the last two cycles. do they think their votes matter if they're not seeing what they want immediately, it's the long game. that's going to be a problem. >> it's a disconnect. prioritizing issues that play in suburban areas of the

country and what students might want. student debt relief. the list is long. so there is a disconnect in terms of the agenda with voters. i think also there are a lot of young people across the country who are frustrated by what they see as structural advantage of what republicans have. if you are a young person you know your vote isn't as worthwhile necessarily as somebody in ohio. that can lead to apathy. >> you know about historical challenges of a president in his first term, mid-terms usually go badly, challenges with inflation and things for democrats. where do you think democrats should be focused? what could motivate some to come out? >> our republicans in crisis. democracy is on the ballot. we can read in terms of additional terms of politics. we can talk about what happened prior, the standard common sense around mid-term elections. >> pick your battle.

>> we are in a moment where the republic is at stake. young people have to understand that. >> that doesn't sell for some reason. i am curious. >> that's mind blowing. >> the things that enrage me, the things that scare the hell out of me, things i am worried about day in and day out does not drive voters. >> wonder where that came from. >> i have seen one poll after another poll after another poll and if i talk about madisonian democracy, trying to relate, if we talk about trump using enemies of the people, using stalinist language, charlottesville, you talk in generalities about these crises that we are worried about around the table, they just don't show up in polls. >> taking rights away. >> that may be the differs. >> we may be in unchartered

territory. since 1968 we have seen nothing but expansion of individual rights across different issues. not just abortions. individual freedom has grown. that's for the majority of americans today voting age and beyond. you start taking things. look at obamacare. americans do not want to lose what they have come to value and believe is part of day to day lives. abortion is part of that. don't take it away. take rights that people take for granted away and i think that motivates anger and rejection that we have never seen in our lifetime. >> democrats have to be careful about how they do it. about roe, generally about that 50 year constitutional right, people are on your side. when you start getting specific beyond that like democrats did

in the recent bill. one more thing. you brought it up. i am going to get in trouble. don't look at me that way. >> princeton. >> princeton's fine. >> he is a morehouse man. >> talking about marching and different young people saying i want to march, do this, unionize, not sure i want to vote, i will say the former republican in me, when i see people marching, when i see people saying look at our signs, the former republican in me, organizer in me -- and a lot of democrats think this way. why don't you knock on doors? register them to vote. tell them you will be back to drive them to the voting booth. why don't you get their phone number? why don't you ask if you can

plant a sign in their yard? i would not be protesting outside of kavanaugh's. next door i would say hey listen, we've got a lot of things. could i put a yard sign in your front yard? are you interested in volunteering? do you need a ride to the polls? that's what i want to see. the march is great. hooray for signs. >> connect it to something. >> i said when people said you can never win, i said they don't have a choice. i will drag them to the polls if i have to. i don't see that focus with some democrats. >> i think you could probably be an excellent consultant for democratic campaigns. in all seriousness, i think that's very real. we as journalists have covered campaigns on both sides of the isle where you wonder is there any heart in this? is it just signs? are they actually doing the

work which is organizing. >> all organizing. >> i am not knocking people that protest. god bless them. i respect them. i have been in a march or two myself with my kids. i get that. they don't see the other side. they don't see the knocking on doors. democrats don't organize like republicans. >> politics are complicated. they involve electorial moments, elections, involve protests. absolutely mobilizing energy. the part of what we have to grapple with, when people get in the street, after george floyd was murdered in front of us and we can't deliver justice in policing act, can't deliver after these folks come out and vote, you will get this. >> how do you deliver? >> part of what i am saying is

this. people get in the street and risk themselves at least in a pandemic that is slaughtering us, they risk their lives, and the process is such that democrats appear in the face of republicans who seem to people who really want to hold on to the status quo. it generates not apathy but a kind of cynical judgment about the process itself. >> how do you make the change? the women's march. >> people were organizing. >> i originally said the same thing. then i found out they were getting phone numbers. that's gold. but this is what sometimes frustrates me about democrats. they look nationally. they look at the big picture.

who will be our president in 2024? republicans are saying this right now in your neighborhood, your neighborhood. how do i take over the school board? i don't want them to teach history. i don't want them to teach a history that i am not comfortable with, that gets me out of my comfort zone. how do i take over state legislature? if a kid has an ar-15 and he is running around shooting people, i want to be sure the jury instructions are so tight. same with florida, florida legislature, they're talking about open carry so people can carry around ar-15s. >> without a permit. >> by the way just to show you how concerned i am, i find this to be hilarious that florida, they're on the forefront, you know. >> okay. >> for over a year. >> here we go. >> i have tried to get my conceal carry in florida.

do you know that ron desantis's bureaucracy has held it up for over a year. over a year. >> do you think that might be personal? >> could be. you think global act global. democrats have to think local. knock on doors. >> protesting is part of the political process. the question is not why are people protesting, people have righteous anger? the question is how do you transform that into electorial college and victory. >> there will be 39 states with significant abortion restrictions. the reason is for the last 40 years republicans fore cussed enormous energy on state legislatures, local, state elections which in fairness

democrats have not done. we spend our days traveling the country, teaching civic leadership, teaching tools, low income, other backgrounds, they don't understand how important. you talk about going from the march to pick up the phone number. it's the march to pick up the phone number to call your state legislator to figure out who is running. activists in front of kavanaugh's house, pick some that will be deciding the roe future. make phone calls there. that's the organizing that ultimately will make the difference. americans think of politics as this far away thing but it's in their backyard and that's where

we've lost the focus. >> thank you so much. you would know a thing or two about organizing. and princeton's. >> what soccer club are you? are you in ivy? what are those clubs? i have always been fascinated by the princeton eating clubs. what are those? >> very high flutent dorm rooms. >> we love having you on. now to the headlines, war in ukraine, country says it is launching first war crimes trial for a captured russian soldier. this is as some ukrainians return to the recently liberated areas of kharkiv, the country's second largest city, to find their homes ripped

apart. our nbc news correspondent has more. >> reporter: this morning outside the war torn city of kharkiv, a tearful homecoming. oh my beloved land, she says. the resident's village was liberated by ukrainian soldiers in april. this pushed russian soldiers further from the strategic northeastern city of kharkiv. tatiana is now able to turn home to tinted to her animals and survey the damage. my home, there is nothing. where am i to live? how am i to live? she weeps. across ukraine, the war and quest for justice presses on. late wednesday ukraine's prosecutor jenae announced first captured russian soldier to stand trial for alleged war crimes.

a 21-year-old sergeant now charged with gunning down a 62- year-old civilian. it's the first of thousands of potential cases. this prosecutor is now working from his office which was once occupied and shot up by russian forces. to identify the main clue is to match image in a database of russian soldiers he says gathered by testimonies of witnesses who survived. another important source is video from security cameras. >> is it possible to prosecute all of the crimes, all the atrocities that happened here? >> it is possible because many officials and investigators are working on it. >> step by step. >> reporter: this as ukrainians collect bodies of russian soldiers killed in the failed attempt to take capitol kyiv.

officials say 200 bodies are stored in refrigerated train cars. most of the bodies do not have documents, he says. so far they say no one from russia has reached out to claim them. >> let's bring in columnist with the "washington post" max boot, he is former spokesperson for u.s. mission to the united nations. you worked at the national security council and treasury department. good to have you both. as we are looking at war crimes, i don't think we have covered enough, the types of atrocities ukrainians are in. we spend a lot of time talking about how bad the russian military is doing, how bad their organization is, how bad they're fairing and how ukrainians are regaining some

portions. that's great. but the atrocities happening are unbelievable and they continue. >> they're horrific and they will likely get worse, in part because the russian government has no regard for civilian life. i find that we harp a lot on the positive angles and maybe that's human nature, to harp on the positive side of things, of this war. but the fact is that we have to prepare ourselves for something longer because it doesn't seem that we are reaching peace negotiations soon. peace negotiations are the only thing that will end this. in that regard not only do we have to prepare for atrocities that will get worse, but what you have now with the russians who have recalibrated and taking over more of the south and east and consolidating their truth and regrouping, president biden said this, we expect russians to continue going further into ukraine. that's something we have to be prepared for. >> you say only peace

negotiations will end this. how do you have a peace negotiation with vladimir putin, a man who will not admit defeat, how do you sit across the table? >> it's why i didn't pursue diplomacy myself. it's why i went into sanctions. but that's what the state department does. they're used to doing it. they've done it with any of the countries. that's what they're tasked to do. that's what they're used to doing. the fact is without effort to at least try for peace negotiations, which we haven't yet, we ever the critical elements. we have sanctions of course. we are united with partners. peace negotiations are a

missing piece. i don't want to pretend it would be easy. but trying to group all the countries around the table could yield results because putin is backed into a corner. you never want an adversary choosing between ultimate defeat or nuclear war. that's why we have to at least try this. >> the many ways this has back fired, finland's leaders say the country must join nato alliance without delay. in a joint statement the country's president and prime minister said membership would strengthen finland security. they said they hope the steps needed to make the decision will be taken rapidly in the next days. it is worth taking a moment to look back at the remarkable history between finland and former soviet union. it was part of sweden for centuries and fell into russian rule in early 1800s.

after revolution, fins declared dependence in 1917. nordic country has long been intertwined and shares an 830- mile border with russia. finland was weary about the threat posed by then soviet union. following invasion of poland, soviet sought to expand border with finland. soviets wanted to gain possession of several finish islands and went so far as to offer exchange of soviet land. soviet union launched attack in 1939 beginning what was known as the winter war. that saw the heavily out numbered put up defense against the army which made little progress. soviets at that time had the largest air force. fins had none at all yet

managed to shoot down soviet airplanes. they were fighting in frigid conditions wearing white winter camouflage and attacking on skis. it's reported that in the three months, soviets suffered 300,000 casualties compared to about 65,000. the western world was stunned by ability of the fins to hold off soviets. by february 1940, soviets used massive artillery bombardments. they made peace on soviet terms on march 12. with all that said we have heard from the pentagon officials. we have heard from military leaders, current and former, the swedes as well, military, what access they would be to the nato alliance. >> it would be significant. it makes it easier when you have the neighbors in nato as well. this is obviously the last thing that putin ever wanted to

see. his justification remember is ukraine tried to join nato. never mind they weren't going to get in but he was so alarmed by the threat to russia that he had to invade before they could join. well sweden and finland are about to join and putin has no option. he is not going to invade finland, sweden. he is already getting defeated by ukrainians. sweden and finland have capable militaries, f35s, all the modern equipment you can imagine, mobilization reserves. they are true military powers. it just increases the coalition against the russians and again underlines what a strategic disaster for russia the invasion of ukraine has become. >> you have written about this

recently several times. but on may 9, big putin victory speech that day, talking about it earlier, he has clearly wrapped himself perhaps as long as he has been alive in world war ii. he speaks about sentiment of sacrifice, people who have sacrifice for russia. he has a captive audience and population is deprived from information from outside. so isn't the question, he can go on interminably like this given his mind set. >> yes or no. he does have the advantage. you could argue he is not a democratic elected leader. he doesn't have to worry about losing mid-terms or general election. but he is clearly concerned about public opinion. there was speculation that he would announce general mobilization, declare war on ukraine, call up reserves, send millions of russian boys from the villages into ukraine.

he didn't. why didn't he? they don't have the equipment, infrastructure, a national guard like set up. another part of it people are speculating is he understands by doing that, he would undermine the basis of his regime. people in russia are being brain washed and supporting war but that doesn't mean they want to send their sons to die in ukraine. >> were you surprised he referenced the war dead in the speech? >> not a huge surprise. the sacrifice russia made in world war ii has been under pinning of legitimacy first for soviet regime and now the putinist. they whitewash a lot out of world war ii including that at the beginning of the war the soviets were aligned with the nazis. that's a part of the story they never mention. they never mention atrocities committed by troops, mass

rapes, executions of poles and others. what you see in ukraine is continuity with that, same misconduct, horrific brutality displayed by red army in world war ii is displayed by russian army in ukraine. there is all too much continuity in russian history. this is something that's not going to happen soon. but it's got to happen in the future for russia to rejoin the world as a civilized country. >> they may not talk about what they did in poland but it is something poland has never forgotten. it's defined the country. it defines much of what they're doing now. we have talked about diplomacy. let's talk about diplomacy of keeping this coalition together. west is united. nato is united. how do we keep it together? what's the biggest challenge over the next months?

>> you can see how much the west is placing unity as a key priority, as they pursue policy towards ukraine. there are sanctions they could have pursued and gone further ahead than europe. there are some that they have but they've been careful to be sure russia doesn't see daylight between the two. as much as possible, they're going to continue. they've done a remarkable job so far. in my history of working in u.s. government until now, i have not seen a similar example. it is beyond the west, have united to this extent. in terms of challenges, this is why i stress peace negotiations so heavily, because if things prolong, which is what every official is saying and things will be at the expense of ukrainians. as things go further, taxpayers

will be weary of spending this much. they're going to wonder why are you spending this much on aid? having been on the other side and watching how the u.s. government functions in the decisions they would not have decided to give such a huge package at such unprecedented speed if they could not believe they would fundamentally move the needle and it could be trusted in a way that can help them really win. if it is going to linger as everyone says it is going to linger, the challenge you face is the public, how much are they willing to pay for military aid, for increased prices at the pump. at a certain point it may be untenable. >> can i jump in quickly? everybody wants peace, ukraine i don't knows most of all, but i don't think it is right now for peace negotiations. putin thinks he can use mass

artillery, kill people. and ukrainians are angry and making progress. they're pushing russians out of kharkiv. they're liberating territories. i don't think the situation is right, the way you get peace now is help ukrainians defeat russians. and that will set conditions for a cease fire. >> former spokesperson for u.s. mission to the united nations and columnist at the "washington post" max boot, thank you very much for being on. still ahead on morning joe, a new effort to codify abortion rights following yesterday's failed vote in the senate. we'll tell you about the bipartisan bill that is making some progress. plus we'll look at a possible silver lining in the latest inflation report. based on all the red on the future's board, it doesn't appear there is much optimism on wall street this morning. we'll be following that. you are watching morning joe. we'll be right back. joe.

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you just did. unbeatable internet from xfinity. made to do anything so you can do anything. whoa. as expected a senate bill that would expand abortion protection nationwide fell to a republican filibuster yesterday. it also failed to get majority support after democratic senator joe manchin joined all 50 republicans in voting against it. the west virginia democrat said he would support a bill that codifies roe v wade into federal law but not the bill that was put on the senate floor yesterday. >> i was hopeful as the democratic party having control and would put piece of legislation forward that would

codify roe v wade. 70% of the american public wants roe v wade codified as it has been for 50 years. to me that would be the reasonable rationale thing to do. the bill we have to vote on, make no mistake, it is not roe v wade codification. it is expansion. it wipes 500 state laws off the books. it expands abortion. with that, that's not where we are today. we should not be dividing this country further than we are already divided. it's really the politics of congress that's dividing the country. it's not the people. they're telling us what they want. it's just disappointing that we will be voting on legislation which i will not vote for today but i would vote for roe v wade codification if it was today. i was hopeful for that. >> did you hear the last thing? republican senators, both of

whom support abortion rights, also opposed democratic legislation saying it is too expansive and threatens religious liberty. they have introduced legislation that has so far not received a vote. tim kaine said he is having productive discussions on a bipartisan bill. >> we have been saying on the air several days, what you want to do is you want to get a bipartisan bill or at least a bill that gets 50 votes. and you can say republicans won't even let us put this bill on that codifies a constitutional right that's been on the book for years that 70% don't want overturned. that's simple. manchin was telling them that.

manchin, collins were talking saying we can support codification of the bill. once again, i don't know, i guess, you know, i don't know how progressives think. i guess it is much harder for chuck schumer to do this than it looks from here sitting around drinking coffee and everything. it's easy for me to say this here but sure as hell seems like you would want to be able to send all your people out to campaign and say the republicans not only reversed 50 years of precedence for a constitutional right that 70% of americans support, they wouldn't even let us vote on, and here is the operative word on the campaign trail, bipartisan bill. simply codify what 70% of americans support. the democrats can't do that?

why can't they do that? let's go back to beg. be tom hanks. i don't understand. why can't they do that? >> legislation was on the table. they were working on it. joe manchin said i would have voted for that. it's a 70% of the country to codify roe. they feel they still have the message. republicans have said we're against abortion rights. that's what they'll be saying. they can't say it's bipartisan bill. maybe they don't care. there was, if they were willing to do it, some moderate democrats looked at this as a bit extreme in some protections of abortion. adrienne elrod is with us. senior aid to hillary clinton

and biden presidential campaigns. we'll talk this one out to you. what do you make of the way chuck schumer and democrats went about this legislation? >> i mean, look, i think it's up for debate what should have been brought to the floor. i think they believe this should be laid at the foot of republicans. it is the party that confirmed the three supreme court justices, these three conservative justices which has gotten us to where we are now. sure, a bipartisan bill might be nice for some people to run on. but the bottom line is with the filibuster, it's not going to make a difference. schumer believes we've got to get republicans on record making it clear where they stand on this issue. i understand where people are coming from but i think going into mid-terms, this is an

issue as all of you mentioned, 7 or 8 out of 10 americans depending which poll you look at want roe v wade to be the law of the land. bear in mind that 32% of the electorate into mid-terms will be women over 50. on lot of the women remember what it was like before roe was the law of the land. that's the calculation chuck schumer was making. it is up for debate. but bottom line is this is not on democrats. this is on republicans. a next guest says lawmakers voted against aid for ukraine because they claim we need to focus on america. why do the same members oppose infrastructure? a congressman is asking that question and he joins us straight ahead on "morning joe." straight ahead on "morning joe."

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it's incredible. there is literally nothing. >> all over the place. >> all the hot buttons of the people at maga world. >> you can run the same ad.

>> i love san francisco. >> still to come, valley people. they're my people. >> what we are finding is truth doesn't matter. just doesn't matter. >> maybe in pennsylvania. >> opened the door for someone even trumpier to be the nominee. steve is here to talk about inflation. i think to the point we were making about republican candidates, i think it is all the more reason why democrats need to have such clarity in their message. it has to be so clear what they're talking about. it can't be muddled because republicans are crazy, are all over the place. you can make that contrast. >> the aristotle message is

clear. they're liars. that's obviously clear. just look at it. it is obvious. look at j.d. advance, obvious. look at kevin mccarthy, donald trump is on the take. putin, donald trump is responsible for january 6. donald trump needs to apologize, et cetera, et cetera. they're liars. it is obvious. >> fraud is the word in that. that is the word. do you believe in the candidates who believe in nothing, happy to stand up there and be a vessel and repeat the talking points? do you think they believe what they're saying? is it enough that they're famous, up seen them on tv, they're echoing the right things from donald trump. >> i don't know if that works. it works for a percentage of the population that says you must repeat donald trump. >> there is a big state in

pennsylvania. >> i am worried about democrats hanging their hat on being the solution to inflation. i am not sure one person, one country, one party can solve this problem with everything that's happening around the world. >> politically, people aren't going to vote on crazy if they can't pay for groceries, if they're having trouble. obviously you've got to do two things. it is those pocketbook issues more than roe, more than being a liar and crazy. >> you have to walk and chew gum at the same time. you have to talk about crude cynical pursuit of power, these folks that will morph into anything they think they need to be to hold on to power. speak to positions of normal every day people. how they're livermanning, the pain they're experiencing.

if you fall back on what was as the answer, this is going back to earlier conversation, if you don't respond to scale to the experiences they're going to be cynical about your responses. >> he is trying to show you understands the problem, empathizes with it. is inflation here to stay? >> it is here to stay. i can take you through numbers. joe biden is all over this because he knows this is defining in the elections. >> thank you so much. we will have much more in our 9:00 a.m. hour. first, the war on the west. is the american story one of thin and shame? our next guest says that's how it is being rewritten in the eyes of many. author douglas murray explains why and how that narrative ends up helping hostile nations hoping to distract from their

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welcome back. let's bring in now the author and journalist douglas murray, the editor of "the spectator" and the united kingdom is adopting the worse ideas. douglas is out witha any book titled "the war on the west." . thank you for being with me. i heard you on a podcast with andrew sullivan and was fascinated. want to read a bit of your book here for the audience. you write this, the culture that gave the world life saving advances in science, medicine and a free market that has raised billions of people around world out of poverty and offered greatest flowering of thought anywhere in the world is integrated through a lense of the deepest hostility and

simplicity, the culture that prodrewsed michelangelo and leonhard yes and bernini and bach. they are offered a storiest west's failings without spending anything like a corresponding time on its gory. every school child knows about slavery. how many could describe without irony cringing or caveat the great gifts that the western tradition has given to the world. all aspects of the western tradition now suffer the same attack. the judeo christian foundation that formed the cornerstone of western tradition finds itself under particular assault. so does the condition of secularism and the enlightenment which produced a flourishing in politics and sciences and the arts. so douglas, explain, and explain why you wrote the book. >> well it is good to be with

you. we've been undergoing a period of over correction in the west. which i mean, particularly in america, but also in the other english speaking democracies in particular. and the overcorrection is something like this. maybe if you went back 60 years, you could study american history and be ignorant for instance to the fact that thomas jefferson owned slaves. there was a correction that was needed. we needed to get american history, british history, western history into a better perspective. and take account of for instance slavery and the history of racism and colonialism and much more. but in recent years we've gone into an over correction on this. so for instance, in the u.s., every single figure from the past is found guilty of living in the past because the past wasn't like the present. everybody is guilty of holding views or living at a time in which views were held which we now find repugnant. but as a result we have this extraordinary assault on almost

everybody who has gone before us, from the founding fathers, even from the date of the founding of america, all the way through up to the present. we have a situation where instead of get jefferson in the proper light, to correct things we didn't know, we overdo it. in new york, in the council chamber last year, created up and removed the statue of thomas jefferson in the chamber because as one member said thomas jefferson does not represent our values f. you go through all of american history and find people the not agreeing with everything we believe, it is hard to see what the american or western past is going to remain if we accuse everybody of racism. you just mentioned the enlightenment, nonsuperstition, was given to us by the enlightenment and in recent years every one has been brought

down, even in paris, disappeared and gone into a witness protection program. >> and you talk about the need for the debate. you're talking though in the introduction about the need for balance and the debate. let me read a couple of things here quickly. you say there certainly has been times in the past when the history of the west has been taught as though it is a story of unabashed good. historical think is never a bad idea. i don't want to shut down the debate. ien yoi that debate and i think it is helpful. but i think this is the thesis of your book, but to date it has been riotously one-sided. >> that is right. as i say, if you go -- you can do the exercises that has been happening in recent years on absolutely everybody. you can find for instance anyone who lives in a time of slavery or a time of colonialism must be tainted with it.

i say that historically speaking, this is not just unfair to the past, it is unfair to us in the present. >> right. >> if we rid ourselves of everybody in the past that has got us to where we are, we actually carry out an act of self-harm. >> let's talk about churchill. sorry for interrupting. but i've heard you talking about churchill before and my favorite quote, a hero of mine, was when winston was right, he was right. when he was wrong, my god -- you know the quote, right. >> that is right. >> but i will say though, for that year, in 1940, when britain stood alone against nazism, alone in the world, he saved and helped the british people save western civilization. two things could be true at once. thomas jefferson was viewed as a deplorable human being but thomas jefferson's words freed more human beings than any other

political philosophers words in the history of the human right. >> exactly. and it is so ridiculous to look at a nation's history or people in history and say we're only going to look at the good things. we're going to ignore all of the bad things but equally it is absurd to look at the history of america and say we're going to only focus on the negative and i nor the positive or the good things people have done an just seize on individual acts that we now disagree with. churchill is a good example, because in the u.k., churchill statue has been repeatedly assaulted by crowds who say he had victorian attitudes about race. well, yes, churchill was born in the victorian era. of course he'd had that attitude. but surely saving the world from nazi germany should count as something. >> and as you say throughout the book and talking about race, let me find it. when you talk about race, you say nobody could deny the scourge of racism, a scourge

that has been found in some form throughout recorded history. we are not as developed as we might like to imagine we are. yet in recent decades western countries has been better than ever. led by the example of remarkable men and women of every racial background. but most notably by extraordinary black americans. and you talk about -- >> yes. >> -- yes, america, we have the original sin of slavery. but your argument is we must address it and stare it down. but everything can't be viewed through that single lens. >> exactly. because going forward for the history of america and the rest of the west, if we decide that we've only done evil in the past, that we were founded in sin, and we can never get rid of the sin, it is highly unlikely we'll be able to do anything good in the future. among other things because we're not in agreement on the past. america is so divided these days. and one of the few things that

we could find agreement on is that broadly speaking america has been a force for good in the world. the west has been a force for good. but we've done some good things that we can be proud of and as well as things that we're not proud of. but we should be, could be able to unite around history and the positives of it and i fear that this overcorrection in the recent years means we can't even agree what has happened in the bast. so of course year not going to agree on what we're meant to be doing going forward. this culture war against the american and western past has gone so far so fast and i would like to ease off and look at ourselves and our history in a reasonable light. >> and something that one of my great concerns was if you tear down the foundations of this republic, and if you attack the founders and say that their words must also be -- we create this void and i will just say --

>> that is right. >> -- as a conservative that was not a fan of donald trump, we create a void, that allows people, demagogues, strong men like donald trump to step into. that is why when donald trump was president, we talked about madison constitution and checks and balances. that is my fear. not just from the right. but from whom ever. demagogs, if there is a valueless void and we're afraid to go back and connect with the greatest part of our history in the west, then demagogues could ransack that system. >> and they'll be able to tell you anything they like. and i give the example in the book of abraham lincoln, he used to be agreed upon as american hero. he was an extraordinary story apart from anything else of somebody coming from absolutely nothing and rising to the top position in the land. why has this era decided that it