let him acquire their company. if you have a guy come in, critique some of your top executives publicly, beat up on the company and walk away, it's not clear that he could ever acquire anyone else in the future if he walks away from this one, garrett. >> has the feel of the next season of "succession." jake ward following the twitter tales for us, thank you. thank you all for watching this hour of msnbc. "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪♪ hi there, everyone, it's 4:00 in new york. on the heels of that extraordinary news yesterday from the january 6 select committee, its decision to subpoena five of the republican colleagues as part of its effort to uncover the inner workings of the campaign by the ex-president and his allies to overturn the results of the 2020 election, there is brand-new reporting today that simply underscores how the big lie that the 2020 election was somehow stolen from donald trump continues to pose

an ongoing threat to our democracy today. "washington post" is out with new reporting that an election official in a rural georgia county threw open the doors to a stop the steal activist who was looking to probe election results there, looking for fraud, fraud that we all know now simply does not exist. that activist later claimed to have arranged for investigators to fly down to that georgia county to copy data from voting equipment. from the post reporting, quote, trump had carried the conservative county by 40 points but election supervisor misty hampton said she remained suspicious of joe biden's win in georgia. hampton made a video that went viral soon after the election, claim to go show that dom i don't know voting systems machines, the ones used in her county, could be manipulated. she said in interviews that she hoped the georgia businessman who visited later, scott hall and others who accompanied him could help identify vulnerabilities and prove, quote, that this election was not done true and correct, end

quote. as the "washington post" report points out this incident in coffey county, georgia s part of a wider pattern, they write this, quote, in the year and a half since the 2020 election there's been a steady drum beat of revelations about alleged security breaches in local elections offices and a growing concern among experts that officials who are sympathetic to claims of vote rigging might be persuaded to undermine election security in the name of protecting it. suspected or attempted breaches have spurred law enforcement investigations in colorado, michigan and ohio. one such case has already led to criminal charges. tina peters an elections official in mesa county, colorado, was indicted in march on charges stemming from her alleged efforts to secretly copy a dominion voting system server last year. mounting concerns about election security and the steady march of the big lie republican candidates hoping to win offices at the federal, state and local

levels in the 2022 midterms ahead of a potential 2024 trump run are just two of the big headwinds facing the bipartisan january 6 investigation by congress which is now entering a crucial stage. in less than one month the select committee will begin its public hearings which in the words of january 6 committee member jamie raskin will, quote, blow the roof off the house. the goal of those hearings, make it clear to the american people the full extent of the trump coup plot and explain just how close we came to the end of our democracy as we know t add to that the fallout from the committee's decision to issue subpoenas to five house republicans, an unprecedented move that brings congress into uncharted territory. "politico" reporting today on why the panel ultimately decided to issue those subpoenas to their own republican colleagues, "politico" writes this, quote, the january 6 select panel's subpoenas of five house republicans are a huge risk by any measure, but committee members say the peril is worth

it to prevent a future insurrection, not to mention to fully investigate an election subversion attempt by former president donald trump and his allies. quote, this determination to issue these subpoenas was not a decision that the committee made lightly. that's congresswoman liz cheney, she is the capital riot panel's vice chair, quote, but it is absolutely a necessary one she said. the sanctity of this body and the continued functioning of our constitutional republic requires that we ensure that there never be an attack like that again. and that is where we start today. amy gardner is here a "washington post" political reporter, one of the journalists whose by line is on that piece of reporting we started with, also betsy woodruff swan msnbc contributor out with a new scoop of her own and former rnc chairman msnbc contributor michael steele is here. amy, i start with you. take us through your extraordinary new reporting that to me bolsters this idea that

you hear from liz cheney and bennie thompson that the threat to democracy is a clear and present danger that is ongoing. >> right. and as you said a minute ago, nicolle, we know that part of the narrative story that the committee is planning to tell is that the insurrection is still happening across the country and that there is a concerted effort under way to make it easier to subvert the 2024 results than it was in 2020 when the guardrails held. the committee as well as we in the media have been documenting who was there on january 6 of 2021 and what their role was and who among them are seeking office, particular positions of authority over our elections, attorney general, secretary of state, governor, united states senate, and the fact that we only just learned, you know, this month basically that this woman misty hampton a former elections adviser in coffey county, georgia, you know, did what she did and was willing to compromise the security of her office and equipment in the name

of protecting it means that it's a completely open question how many other misty hamptons there are out there, what they've already done and what they're planning to do in the upcoming elections. >> amy, you also have some incredible sound from scott hall, he is the businessman who she threw the doors open to do the voting office. let me play that sound. >> i'm the guy that chartered the jet to go down to coffey county to have them inspect all of those computers. and i've heard zero, okay. i went down there and we scanned every freaking ballot. they sent their team down to coffee county, georgia, and they scanned all the equipment, imaged all the hard drives and scanned every single ballot, you know, absentee, in person, in person and absentee by mail and have gotten no feedback. >> they imaged the hard drives?

>> yes. >> how in the world did you get permission to do that? >> we basically had the entire elections committee there, okay? and they said, we give you permission. go for it. >> amy, i guess first, is it legal for scott hall to do what he did in his own words, image all the hard drives, scan every single ballot, you know, absentee, in person, in person and absentee by mail? >> no, it's against policy and misty hampton, who was then known as misty martin, received a memo from the state elections director at the time, a gentleman named chris harvey and all election administrators across the state of georgia received this memo, reminding them that it is not proper to -- it is not allowed to let

nonofficials in to look at or touch or scan or mirror election equipment. it's considered critical infrastructure by our federal government. i do want to say, though, that we were not able to confirm that what scott hall said on that recording is true. the folks inside the secretary of state's office in georgia don't believe that an actual breach happened. there's no evidence of the breach out on the internet, on social media, unlike some of the other instances that we've read about in colorado and michigan, and the investigation at the secretary of state's office is ongoing. but to me the larger point is it almost doesn't matter if the mirroring or breach of the equipment happened. the fact that a woman in a position of pa you are to lead this local election office let people in with the goal of giving them access is extraordinary and what many,

many election experts say a true threat to our democracy. >> amy, do we know when hall says he arranged a plane to take people to coffee county, do we know who paid for that plane? is mr. hall someone that public records show owns a plane? >> no, we dug down that avenue pretty extensively and came up short. we do not know -- we actually reviewed, you know, general aviation records for the local airports and did not find anything at all. so we were not able to confirm that private aircraft flight, either. >> i want to sort of offer something else that happened yesterday as a broader frame for all of this. this is someone that michael steele and i have talked about a lot, this is judge michael ludig he is in the old republican party and even in this version of trumpist republican conservative movement he advised mike pence during the time of the 2020 election. here is what he said about how much danger we are in right now

compared to january 6. let me play that. >> i believe that we are in greater danger, if you will, today than we were on january 6. the reaction has been, you know, a collective reaction, i will say, has really been just the opposite of what it ought to have been, namely we have a complete denial of the 2020 election, we have a denial of the significance of january 6 for our country and we have a continued war really -- i hate to say this, but we have a war going on now over america and

over its institutions of democracy. >> michael steele, i've raised judge luttig's comments before because he is in this world. again, he was advising mike pence between november and january, between the election that trump lost and the deadly insurrection. and he's absolutely right. and i guess i lift that up because i'm not sure the networks that most of the folks in our former party watch will, but for judge luttig to say we have a war, a war going on now over america and its institutions of democracy is a head line if there ever was one on the right and within the right and that's absolutely, absolutely what we're watching and what we're covering. that's absolutely where this reporting falls in, that there's an active effort to continue

today to undermine the results of the last election trump lost so sow the seeds to meddle in the next election should he run again. >> and my concern to that point, and i think judge luttig is absolute right is how seriously do we take it? listen, i get what amy was just reporting, but, look, i take scott at his word. if he said he took a plane down there and this is what they tried to do, okay, then let's put that pin in that and understand how that falls into the broader narrative that the judge is putting in front of us. the thing about a lot of these folks is their bravado is an outward expression of what their intent is and their hope for outcomes. they say so and they brag about it and they're happy to talk about it because they don't believe they can be stopped.

they think that there are more people in this country on this side than against them. until the rest of us push back and tell them and show them that's not the case, then they are the outliers. they are the ones in the wrong. they are the ones who are looking to upend and destroy democracy as we know it in this country. they're going to continue to do that so it puts pressure on the january 6th commission to understand exactly what is at stake here. you know, my good friend jamie raskin, i appreciate the words. don't tell me you are going to blow the roof off the sucker, right, do it and let me conclude that as the observer, as the voter, as the citizen. let us come out and say, damn, look at this, because if you fall short of that expectation that you have set, it falls into the political bucket, it falls in the dismissal bucket, it falls outside of what americans

begin to care about because right now they're more concerned about paying more at the gas pump than they are to democracy. they are more concerned about the cost of inflation than they are the democracy. so you've got to pinpoint this narrative that without the democracy it doesn't matter what you're paying for gas. without the democracy it doesn't matter what inflation is. because someone else is going to be controlling your lives in a way that you can never imagine under this system. so the judge is exactly right about what is at stake at this moment. >> michael steele, in fairness to jamie raskin it's an older comment that we keep coming back to because it's so illustrative. let me show you a more recent comment because i appreciate what journal luttig said because even the far right listens to him. he was advising mike pence, as i said, as an outgoing vice president. but here is what jamie raskin said, he gave had t. a word and made it a starker choice than

even you and i switching democracy and autocracies. let me show you this. >> we are in a struggle for our democracy. this is the tight of our lives that we are in. the autocrats are on the march all over the world. we see the ultimate destination of this kind of authoritarianism and violence and lying in ukraine today where donald trump's boss some buddy vladimir putin who a number of my gop colleagues continue to revere and idolize is engaged in daily war crimes against a sovereign nation where the people want nothing other than their freedom and their democracy. and so we understand that there is a struggle to defend democracy all over the world, which is besieged from moscow to mar-a-lago with all of the autocrats and bullies and clept democrats and dictators getting together against democracy. this set of hearings and the report that will follow is a message to the country. >> if you were anti-democratic,

you are an autocrat, michael steele. it's blunt language reminding people where autocrats rule is stark and it's jarring, but it makes your point. tell people what the real choice is. >> yeah, exactly. and jamie is right about it, it's not just here, it's global, and we saw how close france just came in their recent presidential election to that tipping point. so it becomes imperative for us over the course of the summer and into the fall as citizens to reconcile ourselves around some very important salient point. one is the work of this commission and what we gather from that. two is where do we as citizens stand on this democracy. just how important is it to you? because you get to make a choice this november when you put back into power or give more power to those political forces that are either standing with you in democracy or standing against you in an anti-democratic

fashion. and that's the choice. it's not -- it's not more stark than that. you can whale and wax on about all these big issues that we are concerned about from abortion to taxes to inflation and all of that, but, again, strip it all away. you don't have a democracy, you can't vote, you can't freely assemble, you can't express openly in public squares or programs like this what you believe, it doesn't matter how much you're paying at the pump, baby. it doesn't matter how much you're paying at the grocery store. what matters is the freedom that one single act of being able to vote, to put in place individuals who best represent the interest of the country over their party, over their self-interest, that's what this is about and we've got to get serious about that. we just cannot pretend that we give power back to those who tormented insurrection that they're somehow going to behave

better. really? they're telling you give us the power back and guess what we're going to do, all the laundry list of things, the retribution, the hearings that are going to be called, the subpoenas that are going to be -- and get this straight, when they put out a subpoena and a democrat doesn't show up, watch the marshals show up. because that's what authoritarians do. and that's the difference, folks. that's the difference. >> it is certainly what they have previewed themselves in their own words. betsy, you have some new reporting that suggests that something you said in this program earlier in the week is absolutely true, this committee has had some real breakthroughs and where people have been instructive or perhaps adjacent to those breakthroughs they have asked them to come back for more. talk about the new subpoena for another appearance for ms. hutchinson. >> that's right. what we've learned is that the select committee recently reached out to cassidy hutchinson, she worked as a

close aide to mark meadows in the final weeks of the trump administration when he was white house chief of staff. of course, meadows is refusing to answer questions from the select committee. hutchinson has already been interviewed twice by the select committee in february and in march. the information she provided was so important that the select committee quoted it at great length in a lawsuit where they're going up against meadows to try to get him to participate in their probe, specifically the select committee pointed out that hutchinson told them meadows was warned by the secret service prior to january 6 that the day could become dangerous and violent. what we've learned now is that the select committee went back to her, they asked if she would participate in a third interview. hutchinson said she would not do so voluntarily so the select committee has subpoenaed her once again to get her to come back in and answer more of their questions and that deposition is scheduled for next week. this is a big deal because it

shows that the select committee -- or it indicates strongly that the select committee has learned even more about meadows and about the white house senior staff's final weeks, even as recently as march, that investigators there feel that they need the firsthand clarity that hutchinson may be able to provide and they feel it's important enough to issue a subpoena to compel that former aide to come back in. this is very much sort of at peace with the fact that they subpoenaed these republican lawmakers. a huge challenge for the committee is the fact that even as they're getting ready to roll out the results of their investigation they're also encountering gaps that they haven't been able to fill fully despite the fact that they've talked to hundreds and hundreds of people. they're having to simultaneously put together the investigation in a way that's digestible for the american people while also filling in those gaps and doing as much as they possibly can to get the full story.

>> betsy, what i have seen them allude to, and i think you're right, i think it's in that meadows filing, was testimony, direct testimony, about i think it's 11 members of congress that she was aware of. it seems almost a hedge if these subpoenas don't yield testimony from these five members. here is someone who was -- i believe she was a special assistant to the president in charge of legislative affairs, right? so she's got the members, the republican allies of donald trump clearly in her expertise and experience and would have been her daily life to know who was in and out of the white house. >> that's right. and by revealing that in this court filing you can tell the select committee was kind of signaling to those members of congress, look, we have one version of story about this you guys, perhaps it might behoove you to cooperate and make sure that your perspective could be part of our final report, too.

that's a classic investigative technique, investigations 101, let people know that you're hearing about what they did from other folks in hopes that they will come in, but of course, even despite that it didn't work and that's why they have had to take this further step of issuing subpoenas. there's no question, though, that hutchinson from her position dealing with legislative affairs has information and visibility regarding relationships between the white house and capitol hill that are a key focus for the select committee investigators in these final weeks. >> betsy woodruff swan for your reporting thank you so much. amy gardner for your extraordinary new reporting about what's happening in georgia thank you so much for your reporting and spending some time to talk with us about it. michael steele sticks around. when we come back democrats continue to sound the alarm about the rightward lurch the united states supreme court is making and taking, but to hear the justices say so should actually concern us all even more. and u.s. defense secretary

lloyd austin initiating a conversation with his russian counterpart today, the first since the war in ukraine began. what was discussed, what are the take a ways? there's new reporting on that. and the u.s. is unable to get another $40 billion fast tracked for aid for ukraine because of the conduct of one u.s. senator. we will explain. later in the show, is there such a thing as too maga for the gop? that theory is being tested right now as we speak in pennsylvania days away from an important and closely watched primary there. all those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. ntinues after. don't go anywhere.

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they want a nationwide ban on abortion. they have said that. make no mistake, once republicans shred long-standing precedent and privacy rights, they intend to wage an all out assault on more of our rights, including access to contraception and marriage equality. that was house speaker nancy pelosi warning of the extreme nature of the court's conservative agenda today. while those are her words there are brand-new remarks from justice a.m. sewell alito who signal her concern could soon be a reality of exactly what they have in store. last night the conservative justice in his first public appearance since his draft decision overturning roe was leaked criticizing a court decision preventing gay people from being discriminated against

in the workplace claiming that the 1964 civil rights act was never intended to protect gay people or transgender people. alito said this, quote, it is inconceivable that either congress or voters in 1964 understood discrimination because of sks to mean discrimination because of sexual orientation much like gender identity, end quote. wow. during our conversation michelle goodwin professor of law at university of california irvine and michael steele is still with us. michelle, you have written some of the most powerful things uttered in the public square. i wonder it strikes me that they are screaming from the rooftops loud and clear what they intend to do and how they see and what will guide their decisions. i'm not sure the reaction at least in a policy and political reaction is even matching how

extreme their statements really are. >> that's right. they're not holding back at all. and on one hand we've already heard this and seen this from justice alito in the dissent in the case which he was referring to, but you're absolutely right. there is no holding back and there's all hands on deck for reversing what we've seen in terms of some of the most important constitutional advancements over the last 50 or 60 years. what is at stake right now is the dismantling of our democracy and rule of law. everything from matters that address racial equality, sex equality, lgbtq equality, all of that is actually potentially on the chopping block and this is exactly what we see in the articulation of justice alito after his leaked draft opinion is to say that the matter is coming next. one quick thing that we should

address is that he claims to be an originalist and textualist. well, it was justice gorsuch who also claims to be an originalist and textualist who actually wrote the opinion in that case and it was also chief justice john roberts who signed on as well with the liberals. what we saw in that opinion is a bunch of folks claiming to be originalists and textualists deciding all over the map. >> i wanted to throw into the conversation something that, you know, this is a conversation the whole country is likely to have, right, if these -- if these dangers reach all corners and people are successful in communicating what's happening. the conversation is going to be broader than just a legal one or political one. i want to read this op-ed from margaret at wood, she writes, i invented gilead, the supreme court is making it real. the theocratic dictatorships do not lie only in the distant past. what is to prevent the united states from becoming one of

them? if justice alito wants you to be governed by the laws of the 17th century you should take a close look at that century. is that when you want to live? it is a fact and not everybody read the draft opinion and it is a draft, but chief justice roberts confirmed its authenticity. they do harken back to very, very ancient history, certainly a time when not only did women not have abortion rights, they didn't have the right to vote. i mean, what should we be looking at? >> they harken back to a period when women had no legal personhood. it harkens back to a period in which women were considered to be the property of their husbands, daughters the property of their fathers. in those treatises which he cites and references to the legal scholars at the time these

were people who said there was no such thing as marital rape because the wife had absolutely no identity. he's citing to people that later on our state courts cited to when the nine girls the ability to sue their fathers after cases of -- proven rape and incest. i mean, he is talking about a time in the united states that is so distinct and distant from human rights, from racial equality, from sex equality and it is a time really of human enslavement. i mean, take note. he directly is citing a period of time in which this country practiced the kidnap and sexual and labor trafficking of black people and where women had not even a right to vote. that's what he's referring to. >> michael steele, i don't have to tell you, you were once in charge of the political fate of everyone running under the banner as a republican, but

abortion bans that ban abortion in the cases of rape, incest and life of the mother are like 85% issues, 85% of humans, americans, men, women, democrats and republicans think that's a bad idea. 65% of americans think roe should stay. the abortion debate even on the right is about things that don't actually happen, the right is against on demand abortion. that isn't a reality in america. they've been sort of fighting against straw men. i wonder if you think it's a political peril to be on the side of banning abortion, including there are states looking at eliminating exceptions for the life of the mother. >> potentially. so let's start with point number one, the 20th century wasn't a bucket of popcorn for blacks and women and certainly for gay and lesbian, transgender

individuals. so, you know, if you've got to go back to the 17th century you know you are in a whole new space of constitutional reasoning. second point is you're absolutely right, particularly with respect to rape an incest. everybody across the spectrum and particularly in the pro life community always understood and carved out that exception because of the heinous nature of it, because of actually and somewhat ironically the concern for the emotional and other impacts on the individuals involved. so there's always been a sensitivity there. what justice alito is now saying is giving voice to an ascendant conservative position that looks in absolutist terms and i suspect justice roberts and perhaps maybe one other justice, conservative justice, has a problem with that, which is why

this was leaked so that that opinion, that position could be locked in place. we will see if that's the case. but it is something from a political standpoint, nicolle, to your more important point, that has a lot of very deadly tentacles attached to it for the party. it goes back to what i was saying in the last segment, we've already seen these laws come on the books, right? so the question to the people who live in those states, with those legislators who put that is what's your response to those legislators? do you reelect those individuals? because if you do that means you are in agreement with that particular position for your state. and so in one sense a lot of us who believe that matters like this belong to the states to decide, that's going to be a tested theory. not just for the legislators, but for the citizens themselves

if what you cited in the polling shows that they are much more accepting of a broader array of abortion rights than are being narrowly articulated at the moment. >> i guess, michelle, if you had one wish for how this debate proceeds, i think that it's always important to add this note that the political process, the legal process is slow, women's lives are going to be impacted about i this quickly, immediately, they already are in places like texas. what is sort of your cautionary tale or your wish for how this debate proceeds in a way that's real and productive? >> well, the cautionary tale is that the united states is the deadliest place in the developed world for a woman to be pregnant. we rank 55th not close to germany, france, countries we typically see ourselves aligned with, instead we are in the area of russia and saudi arabia, it's

safer to give birth in saudi arabia than in the united states. if we look at mississippi the subject of this leaked draft opinion, 80% of the cardiac deaths during pregnancy are amongst black women. so this is a deadly proposition that's taking place here. these are not matters of inconvenience, we are talking about death sentences that are occurring when we strip away the right to be able to terminate a pregnancy. and we already see that in these states that do very little to help people when they are pregnant be able to carry their pregnancies to term with dignity and saving their lives. that's the hard part about where we are, but i'm also hopeful, too, because we've seen this playbook before and really what this is is a third reconstruction that we need to call for. the first one was to free black people from slavery and the second one was during the civil rights movement it's time for a third reconstruction and central to that should be a reproductive

justice new deal. >> it's a privilege to get to talk to you, michael steele, always a privilege to have you around. thank you for spending time with us today. up next for us, when 99 of your fellow senators call you out for an inexcusable and ludicrous take on aid for ukraine, you just might be really, really wrong, like donald trump wrong. the very latest on russia's war on ukraine is next. e very latesn but you can do hard. you lived through thirty-seven red-eye flights in a middle seat. eleven miracle diets... on ukraine is next forty-two college campus tours... four overseas postings... one minor stroke... and four citywide blackouts... and now, with leqvio, you can lower your cholesterol, too. when taken with a statin, leqvio is proven to lower bad cholesterol by over 50% and keep it there with two doses a year.

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it's clear from the junior senator from kentucky's remarks he doesn't want to aid ukraine. that is not -- that is not the case for the overwhelming majority here. again, all he will accomplish with his actions here today is to delay that aid not to stop it. it's aid desperately needed by a valeant people fighting against authoritarianism and defending democracy. >> that was senate minority leader chuck schumer calling out his republican colleague rand paul the kentucky junior senator blocked a vote a $40 billion aid package for ukraine to be sent this week. rand paul is now delaying a steady stream of support on the humanitarian and military side from the u.s. that effort is so urgent and overwhelmingly bipartisan that schumer and minority leader mitch mcconnell stood together to demand they get the bill to

president biden this week. meanwhile, a break through in the pent gone's months long effort to get russia on the phone. in a call today with his russian counterpart lloyd austin urged an immediate ceasefire in ukraine as well as continued communication with the u.s. it was their first phone call in almost three months since before russia invaded ukraine. joining us now msnbc military analyst retired four star general barry mccaffrey, former member of the national security counsel and helene coopers back an mississippi contributor. general mccaffrey, can you just speak to what happens when aid is delayed. how does it flow? i mean, i heard from ukrainian source that this felt like deja vu all over again with trump stymieing congressionally approved military aid over that phone call and the favor for dirt on the bidens, but this is flowing so fast and furiously, does a hold up like this actually impact how quickly

weapons and humanitarian aid get to ukraine? >> well, you know, senator paul has a history of quick sort of erratic behavior. i might add, though, 57 republicans in the house voted against this bill. so there is a minority of the congressional republican party who are unilateralists who don't understand that u.s. national security is wrapped up in the defense of europe and that ukraine is really a set piece problem that if we don't support them in the heart of europe, suddenly putin will have his fourth successful invasion of a neighboring state. so it's astonishing failure on the part of congress and both the republican and democratic parties in the senate were poised to move this bill forward. i think the other audience to be concerned about is the other 29 members of nato watching this

and wondering to what degree can we depend upon u.s. resolve in the common defense. >> i mean, helene, i think general mccaffrey is being generous in saying they don't understand it. i mean, this is -- and correspondents have reported this out after trips, this is the trepidation that our allies feel that whatever this biden presidency ushers in in terms of a return to normal or a level set in america's role in the world that on the other side of it because of our domestic politics could be something very different. every ex chief of staff to donald trump claimed as one of their greatest accomplishments keeping him from pulling out of nato. how does this royal places like the building you cover? >> hi, nicolle. >> hi. >> i think the expectation remains as you mentioned that congress will go ahead and pass this legislation that this is a blip, this is not by any

stretch, just as you just said, anything -- this is not by any -- stress anything that rand paul has not done before. he was -- he sort of played this card in the past. i think what's even more notable, though, when you look at the votes this week on the hill is just how on the other hand united most of congress has been in getting this aid passed. i mean, even karen bass, who famously voted against the war authorization back in 2001 after september 11th when everybody was -- when congress gave george w. bush largely a blank check to go to war in iraq and afghanistan, she voted -- gave a rousing endorsement of a vote in favor of this ukraine aid, which speaks to just, i think, a lot

of the -- a vast majority of people of congress are going to be behind this. but, yeah, our allies, you know -- our allies are still a little bit skittish after four years of donald trump. so this is something that they worry about, but they've got their own political issues back at home to worry about as well. i think at the moment nato is probably united when it comes to aid to ukraine, with the exception of maybe hungary, and i think that they've done so far a pretty good job of projecting a certain amount of unity. and i think it's holding at the moment. i don't know how long it holds, that depends on how long this war goes on, but -- >> i mean, look, it is a good point and certainly macron was looking over his shoulder during his election and it is a dynamic in places other than here, we tend to look at ourselves more than we appreciate the global dynamics. helene, it is a huge deal that

secretary austin had this call and that it lasted as long as it did. i think almost an hour. tell us both about the call and about the significance, and whether it represented anything in terms of the course of the war. >> i think that's a good question, i think it is a big deal. just because i think this is being viewed within the biden administration as a start. you know, they've gone two months pretty much now without talking to russian top officials. pentagon leaders not just secretary austin, but general milley, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff have been trying consistently to reach out to their counterparts and all they were getting is that one nuclear deconfliction line, that line that's always when that goes away you know we're really in trouble. that's all they had for two months. so i think it's quite significant that they had the

first talk. we've had -- the administration so far has been very mum about what they talked about. one source said to me that we will only say that the discussion beyond the readout that they put out which was just that austin asked for a ceasefire, but they are talking. the fact that they talked for an hour i think is significant, but we don't have a good fix at this point on what exactly was said. what the hope is is that this is the start of more phone conversations. and the first thing one official said to me after this call was he -- and this is just his opinion, so i just want to make clear i'm not presenting this as administration line, but he certainly seemed to think that this was a sign of just how -- of acknowledgment on the part of the upper echelons of the russian defense ministry of how

poorly the russian military campaign is going. >> that's amazing. so something general mccaffrey i want to ask you if you can sort of imagine or play out for husband how this call might have gone. we have to sneak in a quick break, we will press both of you on that on the other side. k break, we will press we'll press both of you on that on the other side. don't go anywhere. 'll press bot on the other side. don't go anywhere. exploring the heart of historic europe with viking, you'll get closer to iconic landmarks, to local life and legendary treasures as you sail onboard our patented, award-winning viking longships. you'll enjoy many extras, including wi-fi,

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mccaffrey. we watch every day, the horrific performance of the russian military. we have covered their failures on the battlefield, their withdrawal from kyiv. what is a u.s. secretary of defense who is rushing weapons assistance to ukraine say to his counter part? >> well, first of all, i think we're very fortunate we got lloyd austin as secretary of defense. he has enormous experience and good judgment on defense issues. one can argue this phone call has symbolic importance. we want to be in contact with the russian higher echelon, both military and political. they walled us off for three months, so having an hour conversation is a good thing. look, the russian minister of defense is in the ejection seat, and the chief of general staff is in the ejection seat. putin is locked up, put behind bars some of his intelligence chiefs, and he's locked a bunch of people trying to shove this

ukrainian operation into high gear. it must be apparent now to even the most dim witted of putin's military senior advisers that they're in a strategic box. for god sakes, not only have they tactically lost 25% of their got force in ukraine, but potentially a million man finished mobilized army wanting to join nato. they've got germany doubling their defense expenditures. they've got japan on the other side facing russian-held japanese islands, a significant increase in their defense budgets. they're a pariah nation, diplomatically isolated and their economy is going to grind to a halt in the coming years. so minister of defense reaching out finally to lloyd austin, a pretty good signal they're in trouble. >> helene, i wonder what the

mood is around the pentagon. i know it's anecdotal, but i know you talk to lots of people in the building. is there a sense we have sort of recalibrated for the long fight that everyone thinks the ukrainians are in for? >> yes and no. they certainly think that russia is as general mccaffrey just said, in a heap load of trouble right now. they talk a lot in the building right now. they marvel at sort of what their russian counter parts are thinking, and just -- and there's a lot of talk right now about just how, you know, the russian troops were refusing to follow orders, the generals who are getting killed and the u.s. certainly at the pentagon seems like to believe that we're in this particularly the weapons supply and the aid supply for

the long haul. they think the next month is crucial, and that's one of the reasons to go back to what you started a segment off with rand paul. that's what irritates them about what rand paul did because they think now is not the time at all to let up on the aid. they think that if they can continue to rush the aid in right now, that we might be able to help ukraine actually -- i was about to say finish the job because that seemed like the natural thing to say, but that's probably a stretch, but i think i find it amazing how the tone in the biden administration has changed from the beginning of this war where the expectation was, you know, the ukrainians would be bowled over in not too long, then there would be funding and insurgency, and that's where all of our effort would be going to. now people openly talk about the

idea, and i'm not sure even in the building if they have figured out what that looks like, and they talk about the idea of ukraine winning, and i find that astonishing that that's discussed now. we don't know what that looks like, but they are willing to talk about it. >> you're right. so different than the kinds of readouts you were hearing all over the administration, the week of the state of the union address. it's a big pivot, probably largely due to the ukrainian performance in scale. general barry mccaffrey, and helene cooper, thank you so much for spending time with us. the effort by trump and his maga base to stop a rising maga person, too maga for them in the pennsylvania primary. that story is next. don't go anywhere. pennsylvania primary that story is next that story is next don't go anywhere. it's the number one heart failure brand prescribed by cardiologists.

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maga does not belong to president trump. maga, although he coined the word, maga actually belongs to the people. our values never shifted to president trump's values. it was president trump who shifted and aligned with our values. >> we want our maga back. hi, everyone, it's 5:00 in new york. maga unleashed. that's kathy barnett, one of the republican candidates, her recent surge in the polls has her maga party in a panic. the party that over the past several years has gone full trump. they have embraced his bombast, his lies, the division he fuels.

that party. this may be hard for you to believe, but trust me here. they're finding there's a limit to just how maga you should be. her candidacy has gained momentum in very late days of the primary race. a fox news poll shows her almost tied with the other two front runners. one is trump endorsed dr. oz, the other is former trump staffer dina powell's husband, david mccormick. ms. barnette has jumped ten points since march. she's right there. it's almost a three-way tie. the problem is this, at least with the maga world. barnette is super far right, so far right, too right for trump, antiabortion with zero exceptions. she's an enthusiastic promoter of the big lie about election fraud, and this seems to be where they're drilling down in

terms of her problems in maga world. she's tweeted homophobic and islam phobic comments in the past. now her party is scared if she wins the republican primary, she's going to ruin their chances come november's general election. don't cry. even the maga king, donald trump, that's the title given to donald trump by president biden a few days ago is coming out slamming barnette, he wrote this statement, kathy barnette will never be able to win the general election against the radical left. she has many things in her past which have not been properly explained. if she's able to do so, i'll be behind her all the way. our colleague, dasha burns sat down with barnette yesterday and asked her about trump's comments. >> president trump, however, a man you support, endorsed your opponent, dr. mehmet oz.

today the president sent out a message saying kathy barnette will never win in the general election. what's your response to that? >> and then the second paragraph, but if she should get through, she's going to have a wonderful career, and i will be there to support her, he said. and we know that president trump does not mix words. he's a very straight shooter, and i look forward to working with the president. >> why do you think he said the first part? >> because he's made an endorsement. he's going to stick with that endorsement. it's five days until the election, i certainly don't think he's going to recant on that. and yet i am grateful for what he did for our nation. >> in the last 48 hours, it's gotten very interesting. the 11-hour blitz to stop her, to stop that candidate has begun in earnest. super pacs backing her opponents have released ads attacking her, and allies of her opponents are circulating old tweets we told

you about. on sean hannity's program, dr. oz called barnette a gift to chuck schumer. that's where we start the hour, with some of our favorite reporters and friends. a "new york times" domestic correspondent, and former republican congressman david jolly, the national chairman o. american movement, and msnbc contributor, and the aforementioned, dasha burns is here, nbc news correspondent, live in lancaster county, pennsylvania, an important part of the vote there. take me through, this caught my eye. primaries can be so nasty, and they have this bizarre ability to get everyone to sing kumbaya at the end. it's a little too personal and nasty among figures that have become pretty national names in the republican party. >> reporter: well, the nastiness may have paved the way for

barnette, this is a major twist in maybe the most high stakes race of the midterms. this is our second exclusive sit-down with barnette this year, and we talked to her earlier in february. and at that time, she foreshadowed this a little bit. at that time, too, oz and mccormick were the front runners, spending the big money, but barnette was out there talking to voters, gaining that momentum slowly and steadily. she told me, she was warning the republican establishment that there's something new brewing here, and let me tell you, the months that i have spent on the ground talking to voters, i could sense in folks the sort of resistance to the front runners, despite the endorsement that oz received from former president trump, and despite the fact that dave mccormick has just about every former trump aide in his campaign, hope hicks, steven miller, pompeo campaigned with him just a couple of weeks ago, but it might be barnette, you

mentioned in the intro, she might be the most ultra maga candidate. she has been leaning into claims of election fraud in 2020. she has been very vocal about her staunch stance on abortion. does she organized some buses to go to the capitol on january 6th. that's one of the topics we asked her about, and take a listen to her response to that. >> you organized buses for january 6th. seeing what happened, the after math of that, do you regret being a part of that at all? >> i feel about january 6th the way the left feels about the summer of 2020. when you have black lives matter. right now what we have is a government, elected officials who are blowing through our constitution like a well moves through a neck right now. we need to be very mindful what it is. cancel culture is real. i'm experiencing it and it's not coming from the left. right now it's coming from some of those from the right.

>> reporter: this is what's incredible. she has spent a fraction of the money the other two have spent, yet she is gaining momentum in the nick of time here really, and she is not endorsed by trump, but she is talking maga. you heard her there. it's topics like that she is addressing on the campaign trail that has that maga base excited here. do you need trump in order to be maga or can kathy barnet do it on her own. >> do dave mccormick or dr. oz live in pennsylvania? >> reporter: that's a question a lot of voters have been asking here. when we did our research we found that they were both registered to vote in other states until last year. now they both claim they have residencies here, but the carpet bagger issue comes up with a lot of the voters that i talked to.

>> david jolly, we all, and i'm guilty of doing this in my career talking about politics, we take lessons from primaries that may not actually exist. but this one is interesting because, one, it's a test of loyalty to trump, mccormick and his wife dina powell. dina was the number two to h.r. mcmaster, gave her a lot of legitimacy to not just donald trump but ivanka. and then you have dr. oz, when trump endorsed him, the headline in the daily news was fraud endorses quack or quack endorses fraud, she is, in some ways, the most maga pure. you're watching this race, do you care about this race? does this race matter? >> i love this race niccole i

would say it's also a testament that grass roots can overcome big money. that's another thing here. but to your point, this has all of the maga nation story line since trump burst on the scene. you have two people from industry or celebrity, whatever you want to call it in mccormick and oz, relatively respected, questions around oz, of course, who just humiliate themselves on the national stage to try to be trump surrogate. they move into the state to run. and they humiliate themselves, throw away their careers to be outdone by someone with nothing more than islam phobic, and homophobic social media tweet. that is the perfect stamp here. i'll tell you, there's a brilliance to what barnette did, you played it at the opener, ron

desantis, everybody's ears have perked up to what kathy barnette was able to do. when she said donald trump doesn't own maga, it was brilliant. she said to the world, donald trump represents our values, we don't represent his, and at the very root of maga is this populous feeling that it's about the feeling and what she did is she reminded the republican party, maga is about us, not about donald trump. it showed deference and also took the movement back and when you look at desantis, and noam and hailey who have tried to overtake donald trump, you can't get past the elbow budging. she gave the former president credit for maga and took it back. with that stroke, she should be disqualified based on her former comments of serving in public office. but that stroke in maga world was brilliant. >> nick, you have covered this race, and you write this, ms. barnette has offered herself as an authentic and unfiltered version of what the republican base wants. listen, this time you do not

have to hold your nose and vote for the lesser of two evils. she has made plain there will be no pivot to the middle if she makes it to the fall campaign. i don't know where the middle is from where she starts, but, you know, you take sort of your body of reporting of what the republican party has pushed in the wake of the 2020 election defeat, and it wasn't an examination of how they lost, it was rewriting and rigging the rules to sort of go along with this fake reality that to them has become all the more real. she seems the embodiment of that national post big lie political wave. >> well, she actually did it herself, if you go back to her original race for congress, she lost by 20 points. it was a significant loss in a district that no one thought she would have had a chance to win. it was a safe democratic district. but she went knocking door to

door. she hired people who were involved in the arizona audit. she brought in allies of mike lin dell, and eventually people close to donald trump on this kind of wild goose chase looking for vote fraud in a very safe democratic district. and so she has embraced these, you know, falsehoods, and lies about nonexistent voter fraud in american elections since well before she announced her candidacy for senate, and it's clearly animating, i think, with the base, and it's part of how she's made key alliances. one of her earliest and big endorsers is doug mastriano running for governor, he's the front runner on the governor side, and trump's biggest ally in pennsylvania in pushing his effort to overturn the election, and chartered buss to d.c. on january 6th, and held hearings in the state legislature, invited rudy giuliani in, promoted a lot of the falsehoods

about election lies and is still doing that on the stump. i think you see between the two candidates really just how core so much of the falsehoods about the 2020 election are and remain in animating and motivating issue for, you know, republican voters to get behind. >> nick, i have that sound. let me show you doug mastriano talking about how he is going to operationalize the big lie. >> the secretary of state is going to clean up election logs. we're going to reset, in fact, the registration, you're going to have to reregister, and we're going to start all over again. >> again, just a programming note. i think president biden won by the biggest margin of all the states that trump tried to meddle in, and there was no fraud found in pennsylvania, but that has stopped no one, nick. >> no, it hasn't, and the really animating force behind the campaign is still that 2020

election lie. i was at a campaign event of his in erie earlier this week, and his introductory speech was jenna ellis, and she spoke for about 40 minutes introducing him, and the singular issue she spoke about was the 2020 election. he made numerous other platform measures, regarding voting based in the falsehoods of the 2020 election. he wants to repeal act 77 in pennsylvania, which allows for no execution mail-in ballots. he wants to force people to re-register, and take machines from quote unquote compromised companies and get rid of them and bring in new machines which would be very expensive. there's really no room in the pennsylvania state budget for that. it just, again, shows how both candidates are running on this lie that's almost two years old about the election in a state that, you know, president biden won by 80,000 votes, and i think

that's where so much fear is among republicans in the state who have been, you know, meeting behind the scenes to try and stop both of these candidates and get behind lou varletta, and david white in the governor's race, and hoping that oz or mccormick will pull it off. georgia is just around the corner so we'll get another test of election deniers soon. >> yeah, i mean, georgia's interesting, david jolly, and in georgia, you've got the whole access of i guess we can call them establishment, the context of what nick is describing which is full throated deniers, what bill barr, and chris krebs, and judge ludig, who advised mike pence sort of at the end of the trump presidency has described this moment in american political life as more dangerous than the day of january 6th, the day of the deadly insurrection where law enforcement officials were engaged in what they described as medieval

hand-to-hand combat. he says today. and we're on the eve of these primaries, it's more dangerous in this country today, but on georgia, behind kemp, who was the governor for that state's election, which was thrice audited, had another joe biden win, you've got mike pence going in to back kemp, and this is the most frontal sort of pence/trump show down. talk about the import and what you're looking for or watching for there. >> so it's clearly important because it measures donald trump's strength versus mike pence, but i think to the comments by ludig and others, this is a more dangerous moment than we have been in because we can't look at january 6th as the capstone to the coup, it was just half-time, and we're still in the middle of the coup, and the danger is if candidates who profess that the 2020 election was stolen, and therefore we get

to rig the next election, if they win that begins to tear down our democratic norm. it's the only thing they've run on. they're not running on lower taxes and less regulation, they're running on retribution from a stolen election, and invites very antidemocratic themes into governing. i would also say it may be a fatal mistake of republicans to make this race about their issue this cycle. the generic trends are such that you should be talking about democratic reformists, the generic ballots show democrats under water. joe biden remains under water. it's a long ways from november. if you're running the race today, you want voters thinking about democratic performance, not about republican crazy, and these candidates are inviting voters to think about republican crazy. it's why they lost the two runoff senate races in georgia, and they're about to repeat that failure again. >> i would offer as a one time strategist that republican crazy is their brand, and it's hard to get away from, but i take your political point.

dasha, i'm going to give you the last word, what are you watching from where and how this race turns? >> reporter: i mean, here's what's interesting about pennsylvania, it's not traditionally an early voting state, so it really is going to come to day of, and i think it's going to say a whole lot about the republican party, the conversation we have been having for the last 20 minutes, it will say a lot about the direction of the party is kathy barnette is able to get the victory in the end. we're seeing here in pennsylvania a lot of the reflection of a national conversation on both sides. you look at the democratic party, john fedderman ran away with it. people thought conor lamb and he were going to be in a tight race. that has not happened. there are a lot of twists and turns in this race that are a microcosm of what's happening in both parties at the national level. >> pennsylvania is an incredible place to cover politics and to

one time in a past life run for office. it's a great state. we're glad you're there. david jolly, dasha burns, thank you so much for starting us off this hour in what is truly the most interesting story today. an election official whose work on the front lines of the twice impeached vice president's big lie, earned her a john f. kennedy profile in courage, joslyn benson will be our next guest. and the republican who wants americans to wake up to the threats facing our democracy. he says the only way to save democracy in this country is to vote for democrats. >> and later, how rand paul's decision to block aid for ukraine is playing on the ground in ukraine. we'll get a live report from our pal cal perry in kyiv. "deadline white house" will

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so just for a second, consider everything we have together talked about over the last 24 hours. subpoenas for sitting republican members of congress, having to do with the violent attack on their place of work, our u.s. capitol. one political party currently enthralled to a former president whose conduct in office somehow manages to look worse and scarier and more want to be authoritarian by the day and a plot, not just to overturn the results of a free and fair election, the most secure in our country's history, but to drastically restrict our freedoms and access to the ballot box next time.

this isn't merely a tense moment in american history, it's the moment, flashing red lights and all. you should feel heartened by one thing at least, there are still people across the political spectrum devoted to protecting and safeguarding our democracy here and abroad. that story of bravery is at the center of the jfk profile in courage awards. they're presented every year, and this year for the first time they were given us to five people. joining us on set, michigan secretary of state, jocelyn benson, next week she will receive the jfk profile in courage for defending and safeguarding our democracy. she's with us on set. congratulations. >> thank you. it's quite an honor, and also really a validation of what we have had to endure at every level for a number of years to protect and save our democracy. >> talk about who won this award as well. >> well, that's really to be in the honor of someone like president zelenskyy who served on the front lines and continues to serve on the front lines.

liz cheney who is not giving up her role in congress and fighting to remain on the front lines, it's honoring those who stood on the front lines, a poll worker in georgia, and have not wavered despite threats, violent threats, hateful rhetoric and targeted violence because we believe in the foundation of democracy and we believe in a country where voters choose who governs us. >> did you ever think when you embarked on a career in public service that protecting democracy would be so actual, so tactical, so literal? >> you never want to think that, but that's also what history suggests is the reality. i started my career in montgomery, alabama, investigating hate groups and hate crimes throughout the country and it was being in salma where i was instilled with this, to those who faced down billy clubs, and threats and violence, so we could have a voting rights act. you do that knowing that you

could similarly face that violence, and you have to be prepared for that if you're going to stand up for one person, one vote, and that promise in our constitution. >> you are exactly not just the kind of person, but in michigan specifically, what donald trump wants to change for next time, what are your warnings about 2024? >> that 2022 will decide whether we have a democracy in 2024. our ability to protect and defend democracy in 2020 depended entirely on people of integrity on both sides of the aisle, protecting the will of the people, saying no, when the president called, certifying elections despite threats and violence and challenges to those certification processes. so 2022 is when voters will decide who the players are going to be in 2024 and it's an opportunity for us to choose champions of democracy and reject conspiracy theorists who clearly would not certify an election they don't grow with. it remains to be seen what voters are going to do, and i'm

hopeful that we can make the right choice. it's our opportunity between now and election day to make clear to voters in states like michigan and georgia, michigan, nevada, that democracy is on the line, and their vote this year will determine its future. >> if you look at this from the other side, look at this from the pro trump up is down, down is up, the denial of the reality that bill barr said is the reality, that chris krebs said is the reality, that mark esper said is the reality, the reality is trump lost, he lost decisively, and he lost all the states that he still continues to fixate on, including michigan, what's alarming that a white house that planned infrastructure week several times has been successful in installing their allies in adherence of their belief in the lie about election fraud in election offices. they're running them for secretary of state candidacies. you have a theory about that,

because it's personal, it's about this personal political well being in the future. do you think democrats recognize just how effective he's been? >> i don't, because we're still just seeing the beginning of that. i saw it firsthand as we face down and fought back those threats in 2020. a lot of folks, thanks in part of the work of the january 6th committee realizing how close we came to an actual overturning of a legitimate presidential election, and i think it's that truth continues to come out, people will start to see it, and we need to attach the action of voting, rejecting those who still reject the 2020 election, and i think attaching that truth to action can help us come out of this moment with a perhaps even healthier democracy than ever before, but one thing history has taught us and one thing my experience has shown is that democracy depends on people standing up and fighting for it. putting democracy and america beyond the partisan interests, and the more people doing that, more republicans doing that, furthering truth and democracy, we can survive that, but, you

know, the next six, seven months is going to really determine what choice american voters and citizens make in that regard. >> on that note, i want to bring in some of them from the other party. these things, at least as it concerns democracy the same way you do, you're sticking around, and we'll talk about how democrats can shake voters out of what feels like denial, that american democracy really is on the line, that it is facing an existential threat right now today. the author of a new op-ed will be our guest after a quick break. don't go anywhere. guest after k break. break. don't go anywhere. stories of bipolar depression. i just couldn't find my way out of it. the lows of bipolar depression can take you to a dark place. latuda could make a real difference in your symptoms. latuda was p to significantly reduce bipolar depression symptoms and in clinical studies, had no substantial impact on weight. this is where i want to be. call your doctor about sudden behavior changes or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults.

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. the peril of this moment, quite clear to most of us, so why are some people not acting like it, columnist max boost is the greatest piece of the grab you by the lapel, titled we're in danger of losing our democracy, most americans are in denial, and it goes on to say this, quote, the only way to save democracy is to vote for democrats in the fall, and i say that as an ex-republican turned independent. it doesn't matter if you disagree with democrats on some issues, the overriding issue is a preservation of our democracy. that might sound hyperbolic to some, but that's precisely the problem. like so many ukrainians before february 24th, most americans remain in denial about the threat to our country, joining our conversation is max booth,

senior fellow for national security studies, with a council on foreign relations and a washington post columnist, michigan secretary of state jocelyn benson is with us as well. i love this, you gave words to what i feel and how i see this. how do you create a class of democracy voters, though? >> that's really tough. i'm not sure how to do it and unfortunately, democrats are not getting the message. there was a cnn poll earlier this year that showed that roughly half of democrats don't think that democracy is under attack. that's democrats, those are the people who should be the most worried and the most receptive to that message, and that's why democrats are really not running on a platform of preserving democracy, they're focusing on abortion or the economy or other issues and of course voting rights congress, and so congress is not able to roll back the voting rights restrictions that republicans are imposing in 19

different states. i just think there is this level of complacency out there, where we've had this wonderful democracy of ours for more than 200 years, and there's kind of an assumption, well, it's always going to be this way, and no, it isn't. there have been a lot of countries that have been democracies and have lost their institutions, and i think that's what we're in danger of right now if republicans take the midterm elections and then they have the possibility to use that control of the house to steal the 2024 election for donald trump. we need to wake up and get the message out, but you're right, that message is not getting out. >> you know, max, i always think about -- and the reason i do not really tolerate a lot of midterms as preordained is because i live through the one year in recent here when midterm was bucked in 2002 and the first midterms held in september were not about the stuff that midterms are about. they were about our security.

they were about our who we saw ourselves as a country. could we be safe and our democracy, our country was under threat. i've always wondered if anyone inside the democratic party could reach back to the pretty recent history and craft a message, under which everything can reside. you can still talk about economic security or talk about the other things you want to talk about. our rights are fundamental to living in a democracy. are you really pessimistic that that isn't take place or is it your observation the message isn't being conveyed. >> i don't think the message is being conveyed to most ordinary voters. in some ways, i think it's kind of circular, because democrats are doing polls in focus groups which show that there is not enough alarm out there about the threat to our democracy, so therefore the pollsters are saying focus on other things in the election. there could be more alarm about

it, if president biden and other leading democrats are talking about it in the way they should be talking about it. they're not, and it's kind of falling off the agenda, and the threat is growing. and i just, you know, i can't believe that we have to sit here and say the threat is real. remember january 6th, i mean, if january 6th had not happened, if trump had accepted his defeat gracefully, i could see people saying you're being hyperbolic, our history is it takes a pearl harbor or 9/11 to wake us up to the threat. we have had that, january 6th, and we're still in denial. it's unbelievable. what more is it going to take? >> you know, we have turned to you, secretary benson, because we always cover january 6th as something that came from afar and sort of came home to roost at the u.s. capitol, and you've got the receipts. talk about what happened in your state with the fake electors. >> week after week, day after day, following the closing of the polls in november of 2020 saw attempt after attempt to

undermine our vote counting process, undermine our certification process, prepare a false slate of electors and have people representing those electors show up at our state capitol in december. we have been living that and saw it escalate to the tragedy at the u.s. capitol on january 6th. it was really an escalation of a plan that had been unfolding for several weeks if not months. >> and you win this award today for your role in protecting democracy, and i know you have been shouting from the roof tops about that not just as a message but as an urgent policy priority, what is the conversation among democrats? where is the disconnect between what max is advocating and what you're doing? >> we're working to make that connection, it's not just democracy on the ballot this fall, it's our fundamental rights, our freedoms that are connected to that right to vote, our right to choose, our right to privacy, and we're starting to see that unfold, and people are starting to see that. i'm seeing a significant uptick

in energy and focus on the importance of our democracy and the reaction to the leaked opinion coming out of the supreme court. i'm optimistic as always that we will see people embrace the power they have this fall to make sure who we are as americans are on the ballot, and we respond appropriately, and that's the fight, really, between now and then, to make sure citizens in every state know this election is about who we are, and the future of who we are as americans. >> i think the reason people like you and me are less optimistic is because we know what republicans are capable of. do you think that's part of the disconnect? >> i think so, absolutely, because, i can't speak for you, i'll speak for myself. i have been just so shocked of the transformation of the republican party in the last five or six years to this authoritarian conspiracy mongering crazy party that, you know, just today you had elise stefanik, the number three house republican who was accusing democrats of being in league

with the pido files. this is qanon level insanity, spread to the highest levels of the republican party, and you and i were there in the republican party before this. you know what it was like when it was john mccain and mitt romney, it used to be a sane party. we have seen how insane it's become, and i think there are democrats who always thought the republican party was awful, thought it was always racist, and thought it was always involved in conspiracy mongering and so forth and there's some, you know, reason for them to think that, but i think that in the past, some democrats by making hyperbolic criticisms of the republican party may not understand the true shift where it's occurred, it's become far worst than anybody can imagine. >> trust us they're so much worse than they ever were. shout it from the rooftops. thank you both so much for spending time with us today, and

congratulations, well deserved. when we come back, as ukrainian fighters regain ground against the russian invaders, reaction in kyiv to senator rand paul single handedly blocking $40 billion in aid to ukraine. that's next. hae ndedly blocking $40 billion in aid to ukraine. that's next. riders! let your queries be known. uh, how come we don't call ourselves bikers anymore? i mean, "riders" is cool, but "bikers"...is really cool. -seriously? -denied. can we go back to meeting at the rec center? the commute here is brutal.

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crimes trial of a russian soldier got underway today. that soldier is accused of shooting a civilian in the eastern part of the country back in february. all of it comes as nearly $40 billion in u.s. aid to ukraine has been temporarily put on hold, thanks to one u.s. senator. that would be rand paul. let's bring in nbc news correspondent cal perry live from kyiv. i heard from a ukrainian close to the president's office today that it was deja vu for them, that this had happened before under the leadership of donald trump. this delay. what is the sense? do they understand this is sort of a hiccup but the aid is coming? >> reporter: yeah, look, i think they understand that the aid can only be delayed, that it will come through. they're getting some reassurance, i think, from democratic leadership that that's the case. your point is the right one. volodymyr zelenskyy was known globally for a long time because of this phone call he had with donald trump, and sitting there with donald trump he talks about how he needs things to fight.

i have my own election concerns. volodymyr zelenskyy is not new to this, he has not seen the changing in the u.s., and i do think there's a concern there, which is partly why he has been asking when foreign leaders come here, they come with tangible things, and weapons shipments and money, that's what the u.s. has been delivering by and large. >> cal, take me inside what is, i'm sure the biggest story there, and that is this first war crimes trial. >> reporter: so you have a young russian, he's 22 years old, he's a sergeant. and he's accused of shooting and executing a civilian, an elderly man on his bicycle. he was fleeing back to russia, his unit was flipped in half, they came across the elderly man on a bicycle, he had a cell phone. according to the prosecutor, was ordered to execute the civilian because he was worried they

would give away their location, he did so. then surrendered, was taken into custody by ukrainian officials. the bigger picture on this is fascinating, and you and i started covering this war by talking about how the ukrainians were parading prisoners of war on morning news shows and showing both the ukrainian people and the world the gains they were making through these russian prisoners of war. you have now this very wide-eyed young russian kid being paraded in front of the international media, being put in a glass box and put on trial. the international criminal court is pretty clear on this, and that is it is unusual to have a trial, and here's some of the pictures from today -- it is unusual to have a trial while a war is ongoing. there is fierce fighting happening in the eastern part of the country. that is exactly the point for ukrainian prosecutors. they would love these pictures to be seen in russia by the mothers of soldiers. they would love these pictures to be picked up on social media on telegram and seen by russian soldiers in the east. in fact, the ukrainian prosecutor said she believes

they could be saving the lives of ukrainian citizens, civilians in the eastern part of the country, by doing this, by putting this young man on trial. that does not take away from the fact that the geneva conventions are pretty clear on this, and putting somebody who in a public view is against the geneva conventions. none of this is to say that ukraine shouldn't be doing this. this is a democratic country that is putting somebody on trial for killing civilians. it is to say that this war is ongoing and part of this war is being fought on television and through the media, and how the audiences consume both in ukraine and in russia is key to this trial. it is key to the reason, frankly, this trial is now taking place. >> cal, it seems that you couldn't have war crimes trials if the russian military strategy wasn't to slaughter civilians and commit war crimes. in fact, our president has called it a genocide. president zelenskyy thinks it is a terrorism campaign. i mean talk about how the

brutality in irpin and places where you have gone is also tied to this -- really, as you said, sort of fraught occasion of war crimes trials in a country at war. >> reporter: it is brutality, it is evil. this war, like i think all wars, is the worst that humanity has to offer in bucha and in irpin. you had the direct targeting and execution of civilians according both to ukrainian officials and according to international groups like the united nations which tracks this. you had civilians being lied to at check points and then turned around and then shot in the back while leaving. you had civilians trying to flee back to their homes shot, like in this case allegedly by, again, this 22-year-old sergeant. the civilians' bodies were left in the street. when other civilians went to bury their loved ones they came under fire. while that was happening, in the city of mariupol you had the

indiscriminate bombing. this is part of what the russians want to do, sow terror in the population. >> unbelievable reporting from kyiv. cal perry, thank you for joining us. please stay safe. >> reporter: thanks. a quick break for us. we will be right back. we will be right back. we're carefully designing our bottles to be 100% recyclable, including the caps. they're collected and separated from other plastics, so they can be turned back into material that we use to make new bottles. that completes the circle and reduces plastic waste. please help us get every bottle back.

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i promised myself i would keep it together. i'm not. this is the last part of this. i want to thank all of you in this room. you have challenged me, you have

pushed me, you have debated me, and at times we have disagreed. that is democracy in action. that is it working without accountability, without debate government is not as strong. you all play an incredibly pivotal role. thank you for what you do. thank you for making me better. most importantly, thank you for the work every day you do to make this country stronger. i am very grateful to all of you as well. thank you for your role and to the role of your colleagues here and around the world. >> that was white house press secretary jen psaki speaking pretty emotionally on her last day in the briefing room. jen psaki is leaving her position after holding 224 briefings in just over 15 months, which according to the white house transition project is more than all of the last guys' press secretaries held overall four years. starting on monday, karine jean-pierre will take over the

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thank you for letting us into your homes for another week of shows. we are so greatful. "the beat" with the fabulous alicia menendez in for ari. hi, alicia. >> thank you. welcome to "the beat" in for ari melber. we start with maga's frankenstein, a monster taking on a life of its own. coming to a head just days in a primary that has maga world brawling withts