has always that our greatest advances in american history? and it should be the backbone of the democratic story. >> heather mcghee, has always, great to hear from you. thank you so much. that is all in for this night. the rachel maddow show starts right now. good evening, rachel. >> good evening, chris. thanks my friend. much appreciated. and thanks to atone for joining us this hour. happy to have you here. thanks t>> in world war ii, whee u.s. needed to quickly ramp up production of more time material, you know, blaine's, tanks, guns, ammunition, uniforms, everything. the government open defense production act cities all over the country. factories, they either we told the existing ones, but they both knew once. and in some places, they were particularly large defense production facilities, either a large number for joe plants, or a bunch of new ones that were built. one of the things that emerge could quickly as a bottleneck

for our country mobilizing for that war was this conundrum of where all the workers would live, who worked in these newly built and newly retooled production plants? in an already crowded city like detroit, for example, the government of 1941, realized that they're gonna have to quickly add hundreds of thousands of units of housing in order to bring in hundreds and thousands of new workers to staff these defense production facilities that were being retooled from civilian detroit, or in fact newly opened to make more material in that city. and that math is easy to see, right? you need to build a whole bunch of new stuff. you need a whole bunch of new or retooled or expanded facilities to build that stuff. you need a lot of people to work in those facilities, so they need a place to live. the math is simple, right? on paper, that's all very rational. that all just follows. it's very logistical. it makes sense. in practice, though, it was its

own kind of war. while detroit residents got one of their u.s. senators, a democratic senator named prentice brown, to lead an effort in washington, to declare that new housing built in detroit for defense plant workers would be whites only housing. and, that effort in washington actually seemed like it would work for a while, before it didn't, before they sort of blot it back. ultimately, it was black families in detroit who moved into some of the new housing. white residents put up this billboard across from some of that new housing, as you can see here, it says, we want white tenants in our white community. the american flags they put up there in the corners of the sign, isn't that a nice touch? that was february, 1942 because in february of 1942, february 28th, to be exact, two dozen black families, again, these are families of workers at the new defends plants, two dozen

african american families tried to move into that new housing that had been built for defense workers in detroit. white was it is organized a tight picking around that housing, and they also block the moving trucks from being allowed in to drop off any of the belongings of the new family started just arrived. the white mob's attacks the black families, and force them back by throwing rocks at them. with dozens of people were injured. that was february 1942. in april 1942, these two men were arrested for having organized the violence. they were indicted by federal grand jury. these two men were part of something called, the national workers league. that's kind of a weird name for a group organizing anti-black violent riots, right? i mean, these were defensive workers whose families these guys were attacking, this national workers league. yes, turns out it was this kind

of a national workers league. this is one of the same two men arrested for organizing the detroit defends housing race riot. this is seen in life magazine in 1944. he was in life magazine in 1944 because biden, he had been indicted again. this time, as part of an alleged seditious conspiracy to violently overthrow the entire u.s. government. he was still under indictment for organizing the violent attack on black families in detroit, when he got hit with that second indictment for trying to overthrow the u.s. government by force. it is not a dotted line. it is a through line between terrorizing, and physically attacking minorities in the united states, and wanting to get rid of democracy, and rule instead by force. these are not unrelated concepts. this is a man named theodore bilbo. he was governor of mississippi twice, in the 19 tens, and the

1920s. he was a democrat, a dixiecrat, before the realignment of the parties, on the racial issues that happened in the 19 50s. below was just profile in the washington post this weekend for reasons that will become clear in a moment, if they're not already. governor billable wrote a book in 1947 it was called, take your choice, separation or hmong realization. in the book, he argued that white people were being replaced, that the white race would in fact disappear, if white people allowed nonwhite people to live freely among them. if they allow that to happen for much longer, why people would disappear. it was a plot, see? ? the existence of black people and other non white people, this insistence that white people somehow had to abide by them, and here in america, that was a plot. it was deliberately designed to eliminate the white race. the white people had to fight back against that. july 1946, that bilbo was running for reelection in the

united states senate. he said the government, federal government was shipping in blacks to vote in mississippi in his race. he said, those black voters shipped and would swap the votes of white people, and so he said that quote, every red blooded white men must use any means to keep the and words away from the polls and mississippi. he said, quote, if you don't know what that means, you're just playing dumb. it may shock you to learn that theodore bilbo was also a crook. a senate investigation found that helping construction firms getting contracts. he took bribes from those companies, bribes including a new cadillac, also a swimming pool, also i kid you not, the excavation of a lake to create an island for his home. after calling for race war in america to save the white race from being replaced, after a virtually calling for white people to use terrorist means

against black americans might have wanted to vote in his reelection campaign, after being found to be a ranked criminal, taking repeated huge bribes in exchange for his official actions, as a united states senator, theodore bilbo won reelection to the united states senate. the other party, the republicans, controlled the u.s. senate at the time. they said, they weren't sure they were gonna seek theodore below in the senate, given what the senate's investigation had just turned up about his crimes and all the bribery. southern senators, though, united, and they said in response, that if bilbo was blocked from taking a seat in the u.s. senate, they would block the eating of every united states senator in the united states senate. they would, in other words, shut down the senate. they would shut down the legislative branch of the federal u.s. government indefinitely. they would and the u.s. senate, unless theodore bilbo was sworn in, bribes, terrorism and all. he was their guy. they were willing to get rid of

the united states senate in order to stand up for him. the whole standoff was only resolved when theodore bilbo had the decency, at least, to go home and die from cancer before the senate came to session that year. so the whole standoff became -- and both those examples are from the 40s. but you know, pick a decade. i got 1 million of them. this is a man named david lane. he was part of a parliamentary group that robbed armored cars. they built bombs. they ran military training camps. the counterfeited's currency in large amounts. and ultimately, they murdered a jewish talk radio host in denver, and manning ellenburg in 1934. all these crimes were committed. all these murders were committed in the service of setting of what david lane and his fans hoped would be a race war. in which, white people in america would kill all the non-white people in america. and like those guys who

organized the attacks on black defense plant workers and their families in detroit back in the 1940s, david lane also was later charged with sedition. in addition to all his crimes, to try to create race war in america, to try to inspire americans to rise up and kill nonwhite people, in order to work, in order for white people to survive as a race, in addition to all the charges that he was convicted of along those lines. he was later charged with sedition, with being part of a seditious violent conspiracy to overthrow the u.s. government by force. and david lane had a good sense to die in federal prison, but before he did so, he managed to popularize a slogan about how white people in america wanted to kill everyone who's not white, in order to protect the future of the white rates, because somehow being a white person is such a fragile state of existence, that the mere existence of non white people, near white people, is enough to make white people melt like they're made of sugar when it's raining.

that david lane slogan about protecting a future for white children, it's a 14 word long slogan. and people on the far-right, ever, since have turned to the number 14, and to the kind of talismans, to promote that slogan. so the number 14 is the kind of thing you might get tattooed on you, next to the swastika. number 14 was reportedly painted on the brooklyn rifle, that was used by the 18-year-old white male who allegedly shot and killed ten mostly elderly white black americans at the top supermarket in buffalo, new york this week. buffalo news reports that this man had that n-word pitted on the barrel of the gun he used, and the number 14 closer to the stock. and presumably, that's for david lanes 14 ward slogan about how white people need to attack all the non-white people, or else, about how some sort of existential threat to white people for them peacefully, to live alongside, not white as fellow americans.

this is what you might call an ongoing problem. i mean, pick your decade. pick your state. pick your degree of notoriety or obscurity. it's the same thing over and over and over again from the far-right in the united states. and its wings back and forth from terroristic violence and murder, two electoral politics to fantasies about racial purity, to conspiracies about the jews, do discussed for democracy, and it desire, sometimes an effort, to take and hold power by force, by force of arms, and instead of through our democratic force of government. it keeps coming up. this is a recurring thing. a justification and a call for violence, based on this insane paranoid fantasy that why people are endangered species, as long as there are nonwhite people around. and in any change in the ratio of white people to other people is a sure sign that the global plot to eliminate the white race is approaching its goal.

and so, what people need to buy guns, and stand up, and take our country back, and make it great again. because otherwise, why people are being replaced and, this weekend, it was ten people killed in buffalo, almost all of them elderly african americans. the shooter decorated his gun with the n word and the 14 word slogan. and he posted his online manifesto about how white people are so endangered, how they're being replaced. and then august 2019, it was the shooting that killed 23 people, mostly latinos, at a walmart in el paso, texas. and in that case, that guy to, boosted his online manifesto about how white people are selling, so endangered, how they're being replaced. and before that, it was april 2019. it was the killing of a synagogue in california, where the color also posted his online manifesto, about how white people are so endangered, and they're being replaced. and before that, it was march 2019.

it was the guy in christchurch, new zealand, who killed 51 people into different mosques. and he posted his online manifesto about how white people are so endangered, and how they're being replaced, and before that, it was october 2018. it was 11 people killed at the tree of life synagogue in pittsburgh, pennsylvania. the shooter there, boosting all over right-wing social media sites, about how white people are so endangered, about how they're being replaced. and before that, it was august 2017. it goes very fine people that the former president talked about, marching with tiki torches at charlottesville, virginia. a show of force, a white male phalanx, shouting to the cameras as they marched about how white people are so endangered. how white people are being replaced. you will not replace off. jews will not replace us! it is not a new concept. it's not even a new pretext, a new justification for violent racist terrorism. it has long been so. it is, right now, being newly

popularized, newly mainstream by the biggest names in conservative media, and even, by the leadership of the republican party in congress. but it is an old idea. it is an old and stupid idea. it is an old and stupid and dangerous idea. old, stupid, dangerous, and equal measure. but now, what do we do? because, there is a reason these white men killing black people and jews and latinos and muslims in the largest numbers they can. and it is not just because they believe in this ideology, and are inspired by it. they are, that is what's leading them to go all these people. but beyond that, they keep doing this. the way they're doing it, because they're not only at hearings of that ideology, they are revenge on this for it as well. they want to spread this ideology to others. they want to make it famous. they want to make a popular. they want more white people to understand this concept and think this way, and act like

them because of it. that's why they all post these stupid manifesto's on line. these explanations of the supposed reasons for the murders. so we'll have to learn about their asinine, sophomore and pariah soft headed beautiful little old theories. so we ought to take time to learn it, to understand it, to talk about it, so we can explain and understand why, why all those four old ladies in buffalo this weekend had to be murdered in an assault rifle, while they were doing grocery shopping. i mean, what do you do? it doesn't help to pretend we don't know the motive for these repeated terroristic mass murders. they are part of a terrorist movement, that is both murderous and seditious. and has a very long history in this country, one that is surging a new, in terms of its mainstream influence right now, in our media and politics. seeing that movement for what

it is, seeing where it is taking hold, and who is aiding and abetting it, if only are trying to head off the next inevitable one of these murderous attacks, ignoring why these guys are doing what they're doing, and what they're citing as a pretextual justification for their actions. i mean, the only excuses, for example, that conservative politicians and conservative tv shows that continue to spread this intellectual diarrhea, despite the death toll, it has already wrapped up in all of these attacks. but, it is nazism, right? i mean, it is, to me, it is nauseating. to be talking about their ideas at all. to be talking about their murderous fantasies they all share. but they hope will inspire more killing, more attacks, more terrorism. if only they can just spread the word and five people. this is a problem, not just about murder and violence, but about information. it is about finding a way to

learn what is going on, learning enough to be sharp and real about what's happening online, and what's happening in right-wing politics that activate these kinds of killers. while also, in so doing, not helping them spread the word. not helping them spread these ideas. how do you do that? how do we do it right now? today, in the wake of the buffalo murders. how do we do it every way every day from here on now? joining us now is ben collins. he's an nbc news reporters who covers disinformation, extremism on the internet. and really glad you are here tonight. thanks so much. >> thank you. >> so you covered this and extremism for a living. i just want to ask you, bluntly, and if it's okay if the answer here is no. is the tension that i'm feeling here, real and warranted, this tension between understanding the extremism that is at work here, while also deciding not to spread it, not to popularize

it? >> it's a very real tension, and it's something that i loathed in doing this job. on saturday, i was thinking how do i make people understand what's in manifesto, and also understand mostly that this man is not alone in thinking this, that is part of a community of people who want to murder people, without trying to spread that message. and it's really difficult. for the last day or two, looking through the discord shots that he has posted to, you know, like a diary since december was. and it's incredibly and deeply chilling. the idea that he had was, you know, he was gonna go to the supermarket, instead of a church or school, which he thought about. he thought about going to a school down the street, as he deduced that there were more black children in that school, because he thought they didn't test. that's how races this man was. but he decided to say, he wanted to go to the supermarket,

because he wanted to make sure every black person fight for their life everywhere they went. and i don't really know how to say that to people who are about quoting him in that way. but it is the tension that we have, and just avoiding it now, or you know, taking those ideas that he has, and try to moderate them a little bit, which is what, frankly, tucker carlson tries to do. that's a responsible. i don't have solutions for this. i think people talk today about banning forte and something, or blaming twitch. and that's fine. you can do whatever you want. if you want to ban social media, these people are gonna use vpn, and get around it. if a website is based in japan, people will find a way to get to fortune. there is acidic responsibility, though, to not take their ideas, and take the murder out of it,

and say it's legitimate political discourse on the highest rated cable news show. or, not to run on that as a political platform. and, i don't know how to make people stop doing that, but instead of stopping, they are absconding from responsibility. >> ben, what happens to these manifestos that get published online, or even the live streams of the killings, which we saw this week in buffalo, and we saw previously in question, and in other terrorist attacks like this? how do those things live online? how do they function? and do they accomplish what the colors want, which is to both spread and popularize the ideas that motivate them, and also, deradicalize and galvanize the action that people already believe them? >> absolutely. this man had a very specific plan, both in his manifesto, and then, he did it.

he outlined what he was going to do, once he got his camera on his head, to go inside, to make it look like a first person shooter, video game. but he was going to do was he was going to post a link to the manifesto, yelling to his twitch stream, two people who previously directed with on discord. usually people talk about video games, just a place to check on the internet, especially if you're a teenager. but anyone who has interacted with him got this message. some people who, you know, had nothing to do with extremist politics, and they were saying that he was about to go to the supermarket to go all these people, and here was basically just a series of diaries since december of him planning out this attack. from there, people unfortunately started to watch this in realtime on twitch. some of those people started to archived this, and that's how we even know that these videos exist, is that some of the bad guys, especially some of the people who interact with these people, at least near the end ins and outs, and are posting it there. and, that's why this is a problem. this is decentralized.

this is something that happened on an amazon owned companies server, to which, we try to take this down in realtime. and it was spread to for ten, it was spread to other bad websites. there was an age and knock off. somebody took the branding and created a different website. this is not something you can stop. this is something, if somebody wants to do it, they can get it out there. and they may realize through that the next person to do this because they don't think they're the last. they will include their name in the next manifesto. you know, it's that -- manifesto is, you know, air restoration of everyone else's previous talking points. it's a literature to them. in fact, there is no this book is part about this, i would say, to me is that the format is pretty set now. you talk about white replacement, pretty much the same thing as the last guy. and then you do a q&a with yourself, to figure out why it's happening. and you list your ammo, means that inspire, you it's no

different in the last one. i mueller to it at this point, rachel. but it is, unfortunately, a set thing, figured out exactly the format for white nationalist or manifestos. >> ben collins covers this information, extremism at the internet for nbc news, which is a very, very difficult beat, difficult, in terms of its toll on people of covering every day. ben, thank you for what you do. thanks for joining us tonight. >> thanks for your time, rachel. >> we've got much more ahead here tonight. we're gonna these picking among other folks, with the state representative who is the majority leader in the new york state legislature who represent the district where these killings happen. you know, not to miss tonight here. stay with us. u know, here until now. kisqali is helping women live longer than ever before when taken with an aromatase inhibitor or fulvestrant... in hr+, her2- metastatic breast cancer.

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york has a beautiful extensive, and famous system of parks. the legendary landscape park fred like almost, it after you design central park in new york city, and even bigger vision for buffalo. a system of multiple city parks connected by tree lined parkway's. thereby, integrating the parks into the city. and one of those early park ways was called humble parkway. and in the first half of the 20th century, a black middle class neighborhood called hamlin park, began to emerge around it. it's lovely. and so, of course, as in black

neighborhoods in cities across the country, in the 1950s, in the 1960s, city planners decided to build a giant highway right through the middle of it. first, they cut down all those ground trees on humbled parkway. then, they dug out the whole parkway to construct an expressway, to better connect mostly white suburban drivers to downtown buffalo. that new expressway cut of that black community in buffalo. it also pulled more pollution into that black neighborhood, which over the decades, has had serious health implications for that community. it also cut off black residents stuck on the east side of that highway, from the basic necessities of life, like grocery stores. that's why, in 22, 003, something as simple as a grocery store finally opening on buffaloes east side, that was a big news making event, because residents on the east side have been calling for a grocery store, the really something that basic and simple for years, and years, and years, before they finally got one. well that grocery store, the

tops market on jefferson avenue open in 2003, became just a local grocery store but a community gathering place, for their resilient long-standing east side black community in buffalo. and that's why it was targeted. in his racist online rantings the gunman who killed ten people, and injured three more at that tops market this weekend, he said he zeroed in on a specific zip code of that store, because it had one of the highest shares of black residents in all of new york state. one of the most segregated cities in the country, he picked out the area of the highest concentration of black residents, and then, he targeted the place where those residents were most likely to congregate. as nbc's been colleges reported here on our -- mused online about possibly targeting a church in that neighborhood, or maybe a school. he decided on the tops grocery store instead, because targeting a grocery store was novel, and he wanted to have the maximum terrorizing effects,

he wanted to have black americans feel unsafe literally anywhere they might go. in 2003, the same year the tops market opened on buffalo seaside, that state got a new state assembly woman, her name is -- representative people stokes represents that district till this day, she is now the democratic leader of the new york assembly, she's the first african american to hold that post, she knows that house market on jefferson avenue very well, like just about everybody else in that neighborhood she does her shopping there too. joining us now from outside the tops market in her district, is u.s. state assembly leader crystal people stokes, madam leader thank you for joining us. i know this is an incredibly difficult time. >> this is a very difficult time, it's very difficult but these are -- we are resilient people, and we will come through this. without becoming the haters of

people would like us to be. >> what do you think about the way the country is talking about this and looking at buffalo and looking at your community since this happened, i imagine there are frustrations and things that people have been wrong or the reducing beyond their necessary complexity to really get it, are there things in terms of the way that we're understanding here, that you think need correction or need to be steered in a different way. >> well, there are a ton of things i need to be corrected, i think all of it has to be legislation, a lot of it has to be reaching into peoples hearts, why you would hate somebody as to their religion, sexual orientation, or the color of the skin. if you look deep for that solution, it's not there. there is no way that someone -- convincing them that there's something wrong with us as of people, and i assure you that there isn't. so i would ask these people who

are sewing this racial hatred throughout the media, and organizing a way to kill people because they're different from them, is that you should read the bill of rights, or perhaps even recite the pledge of allegiance. because, it doesn't say all white people, it says all. and if you are really a patriotic person, and you love this country like we love it, you have to honor that. you have to learn how to be a loving person, and not a hateful person. now clearly, there aren't needs for additional federal gun laws, nobody should have access to assault weapons, were not at war with each other. i live in a state and i'm honored to, we have the toughest gun laws in the country. but, we cannot protect our borders from ohio, georgia, or anywhere else where you can freely by any sort of weapon that you would like. that's something that will happen to have to happen at the federal level, and i implore the federal government to begin working on that. >> can you tell us about how

your constituents are coping in these couple of days. obviously, we understand that the market itself it is a really central gathering place on the community, it was hard fought to get that grocery store where it is, and because there aren't other resources like that in the community. it's a place where a lot of people came together, in a close knit community, having so many people killed and wounded, i imagine that everybody is connected to this without too many leaps without too many tutoring connections between people, before you know someone directly involved. >> everybody knows somebody that lost their life here, even if they only know them from a distant relative or friend, or they went to school with him, or they went to school with her children. everybody knows somebody who lost her life here, and everybody is shooting -- everybody is in pain. i was heartbroken, had to take

a couple of days just to control my anger, because this is so unnecessary. and, yes we have seen this replicated in other places across the country, two other people. but it still doesn't make it hurt any less when you know that this happens far too often. i heard the governor say yesterday, and i hope she's correct, that this is the last time that anything ever like this happens in america, because it doesn't have to. there are things we can do. even if we can't fix the hate the people, have we can keep them from getting access to assault weapons. you can keep them from getting access to these magazines that will allow them to kill ten people in three minutes that's where we don't need in our society for any reason. >> we crystal peoples-stokes is a new york state assembly leader, her district is the home of the side of this weekend's shooting, madam leader, our condolences to you and your constituents. i really appreciate you talking to us tonight, good luck ma'am, goodnight.

>> you are very welcome, i want to thank you, and i want to thank the entire state of the new york, and people across this country who have just poured in their love and resources to help people in my district. we are really grateful for that, people offering up resources in terms of food, and there are up opportunities for hotels for families here, they're offering airline tickets, they're offering to resources to help pay for funerals. these will never be forgotten, america shows its love when it's the right time, this is the right time we appreciate it, thank you. >> we crystal peoples-stokes, thank you ma'am, we'll be right back, stay with us. stokes stokes thank you ma'am, we'll be back, stay with us [ding] get e*trade from morgan stanley and start trading today. never settle with power e*trade. it has powerful, easy-to-use tools /7 support when you need answers, plus some of the lowest options in futures contract prices around.

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make a better california for all of us. then roll in with those tanks. >> blitzkrieg. >> mr. brown, the question was about taxes. >> back then, they told me we couldn't -- i study my hind legs like a man, i told what i thought about them, and the television would talk to me for 30 minutes or an hour. >> as it says on my motorcycle club, hey diddle fiddle that's right up the middle, that's my style. >> they're here because we let somebody put them here -- well is still on endangered species. >> so that was a crazy year in republican politics, in the state of idaho, that was the republican gubernatorial debate

that year, those were their candidates for governor. this is 2014, the incumbent governor was booed shot or, a pretty conservative republican with a real fun name, but he was not -- primary him out of office, that your idaho conservatives through their sport mostly behind 18 party challenger, he's the guy you see on the far-right side of the stage. when it came time for the candidates to, debate nobody paid much attention that he barty guy because who's the biker, guy and one of the hated a little from him. why did that 120 year old man say that he killed a wolf, and his tv talk just to him? but shot or would go on to win that gubernatorial primary, and the election that year. he served as governor in idaho for another four years. at the end of that for years, when bush odd or left office, he endorses lieutenant governor, a man named brad little to be his replacement. it's like a fair -- push odd, or handing off to brad a little.

and which one is the one that it's no fat, in which we need snow lean? it's part of the joy of covering idaho republican politics. but job or in horses brad a little, brad little becomes governor. the person who replaces him to become the new lieutenant governor was this person. >> all of us are by nature free and equal, and have certain inalienable rights. among which are enjoying and defending life and liberty, acquiring, possessing, and possessing property. and pursuing happiness and securing safety. . >> wait for, it here comes the gun. that's idaho's current lieutenant governor, janice mcgeachin, she was brandishing a gun in that video in order to keep her bible warm, in order to pressure the governor, her, boss that he should undo covid rules in 2021 time when governor little left the state. mcgeachin actually took it on

herself to announce that she had seized the powers of the governorship and proclaimed the states mask and vaccine rules to be here by mail in void, because the governor was out of town. earlier this year, miss mcgeachin participated in a white supremacist conference, where attendees cheered on vladimir putin for invading ukraine. she's also, as you probably guessed by, now an enthusiastic election denier. the reason i'm telling all, this is because tomorrow that lieutenant governor, janice mcgeachin is going to take on her boss, hug the governor brian little in the idaho republican primary for governor. naturally, because she's a election denier, she earned the lead endorsement of former president donald trump. she's not the only right wing election denier running for statewide office in idaho, there's no incumbent in the secretary of state and idaho, to the three republican candidates for running to be secretary of state, or also election, deniers who said that trump won the election, and

biden is an usurper. the republican attorney general is also being primaried by another election denier. i know there's a lot of attention on the pennsylvania republican primary tomorrow, where there is deep, deep insanity in the republican primary races for governor and senate, and even up for lieutenant governor, but i'm telling you, don't sleep on idaho. idaho is tomorrow, two and there's plenty of crazy to go around. watch this space. around around watch this my wife introduced me to prevagen and so i said "yeah, i'll try it out." i noticed that i felt sharper, and i thought, yeah, it works for me. prevagen. healthier brain. better life.

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sweden, to nordic countries that have long held stances of neutrality, have formally announced they're looking to join nato, for sweden this ends 200 years of them being happily militarily on aligned. vladimir putin wants to desperately seen as a historic figure, he had his certainly achieve something historic, here the last time sweden was part of any aligns like this was during the napoleonic wars, mazel tov mr. putin, you really turn things around here. he really made history. that's -- sweden in philly made no they were interested in joining nato, putin's been making threats, including threats to put in a russian nuclear weapons in the baltics sea, a few weeks ago after finland's leader said they were supporting a plan to nato, russia cut off its electricity supply to finland. the message from russia has been threatening, but it also seems not to be working. sweden and finland are moving forward with their plans to join nato, it's official as of

today. putin invaded ukraine, supposedly to push nato back, will now nato is getting considerably bigger, and much closer to him. are there things we should be worried about in terms of what putin might do in response? are there potential other pitfalls ahead? joining us now is even walter, he's a former u.s. ambassador to nato, he's now president of the chicago council on global affairs, it's your battery, thanks for being here today, we are glad you were able to join us. >> my pleasure, looking forward to it. >> what do you make of vladimir putin's threats, sort of saber-rattling over finland and sweden joining nato, how seriously do you take those threats, and where are you watching for? >> i mean, he clearly is doing the normalcy saber-rattling, but today he spoke to the counter nato alliance that he created, the csto, he said that finland and sweden joining would be no problem for russia. the only problem would be if

nato would actually put military infrastructure and capabilities into either those countries. that is a kind of new thing for him to say, back to 15 16 years ago he would say that nato enlargement was fine. but of course, in the last few decade or more, he has actually attacked georgia and attacked ukraine, ostensibly because they were becoming members of nato. so my senses, he's not going to like this, but he also knows it's inevitable. they're going to move, nato's gonna take him in, they're not -- giving his military weakness in ukraine, there's not much he's gonna be able to do the counter this. >> maybe the lesson, there in terms of watching what he says -- watching when he doesn't turn or when he says, if you seem inclined to join nato, where you seem to want to join nato you are going to get attacked. but if you join nato, you're going to be as safe as any other nato country. that said, this line that he's

rolling out today about how it's okay as long as there isn't any nato military infrastructure neither those countries. there will be, won't they? if they join nato. does now have to be sort of military integration in order to make the it real, the direction members of the alliance? >> for sure, there has to be military integration in some ways that is already happened. both finland and sweden have long been partners and nato. they are very compatible weapon systems, communication systems, they have participated in a whole series of nato led military operations, including in afghanistan in kosovo, sweden also participated in the campaign against libya. so, they have those capabilities, but in order to defend finland in particular, a country at the border that has 830 miles of border with russia. it's important to nato understands where the airfields are, how they might be able to reinforce finland, forces him through ports and airfields.

be able to defend different parts, so you do want to know the infrastructure that there, and where it's not good enough to say take american c-17 planes, which is a very long runway to start building up that infrastructure. for now, i think finland and sweden are saying, we are happy with nato membership, we don't really want permanent deployment of nato troops in our territory. but of course, we will do a whole bunch of exercises. all of which is to say that, the reality is that they are now in nato, and vladimir putin will have to think not twice but three times before he does anything to threaten their security. >> briefly, i don't want to make too much of this. are you concerned, do you think it's realistic corporate and to worry about the prospect that nato countries won't unanimously agree to this? that a country like turkey, or that even the republican party within the united states senate might balk and say no to sweden and or finland joining up?

>> well, clearly, all 30 members had to agree to nato membership, first to invite, them and then to ratify the treaty changes. that means, in the u.s. senate for example, 57 votes are necessary for a treaty change. i, think all the indications are that the republicans are going to support nato enlargement, i think we will see that this week with the vote on the ukraine assistance package, which demonstrates that the republican party is prepared to do what is necessary, at least large numbers of the party, in order to protect european security. you always have to worry about other countries, turkey, hungary, and others. but i think, in the end, they understand that there are security depends on a strong and capable nato, and that at the moment means having finland enjoyed sweet internet alliance. i don't think there's a big prospect of that being turned down, it may take a little longer, but in the end we're gonna have both of those countries as members of nato. >> evil delta is a former u.s.

ambassador to nato, now president of the chicago council on global affairs, invaluable to have you tonight. >> my pleasure. >> we'll be right back, stay with us. pleasure >> we'll be right back, stay with us. >> tech: need to get your windshield fixed? safelite makes it easy. >> tech vo: you can schedule in just a few clicks. and we'll come to you with a replacement you can trust.

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won't raise your taxes. vote yes on prop a for fast, safe, reliable transit. this past hour, we've discovered more details about president biden's plan trip to buffalo tomorrow, and the first lady are expected to meet tomorrow the families of the families of the victims were killed in the mass shooting this weekend. it also meet with law enforcement and first responders and community leaders. we've also learned tonight that the bidens are expected to visit that memorial that has popped up outside the top market, where the massacre occurred. a white house official telling nbc news tonight that during tomorrow's visit, president biden will call on congress, to enact gun reforms. he will call on them to take, quote, weapons of more of our streets. that is all planned for tomorrow, in buffalo, new york. that's gonna do it for us for tonight. and it's time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence. >> good evening, rachel.