of the democratic story. >> heather mcghee, has always, great to hear from you. thank you so much. that is all in for this night. the rachel maddow show starts right now. good evening, rachel. night. the rachel maddow show begins rightth now. >> happy to m have you here. in world war, two when the united states needed to quickly ramp up production of war-time material, planes, tanks, guns, ammunition, uniforms, everything, the government opened defense productionev facilities all over the country. factories. they retooled existing ones or builtet new ones and in some places where there were particularly large defense production facilities, either a large number of retooled plants or a bunch of new ones that were built, one of the things that emerged pretty quickly as a

bottleneck for our country mobilizing for the war was the conundrum of where all of the workers would live in the newly rebuilt and newly re-tooled production plants. in an already crowded city like detroit for example the government realized in 1941 they to quickly add hundreds of thousands of units of housing in order to bring in hundreds of thousands of new workers to staff these defense production facilities that were being re-tooled from civilian use in detroit or in fact, newly opened to make war material in that w city. and that map is easy to see, right? i you need to build a whole bunch of new stuff, you need a whole bunch of new or retooled or expanded facilities to build that stuff, you need a lot of people to work in those facilities so they need a t pla to live. the math is simple, right? on paper, that is all very rationale, it all follows, it is very logistical, it makes sense. in practice though, it was its own kind of war.

white detroit residents got one of their u.s. senators, a democratic senator to lead an effort t in washington to decla that new housing built in detroit for defense plant workers would be whites only housing. and that effort in washington actually seemed liked it would work for a while before it didn't, because they sort of clawed it back. ultimately it was black families in detroit who moved into some of the new housing. white residents put up this billboard across from some of that newhi housing. as you can see here, we want white tenants in our white community. the american flags they put up there in the corners of the sign, isn't that a nice touch? that wast february, 1942. because in february of 1942, february 28, to be exact, two dozen blacko families, again these are families of workers at the new defense plants, two dozen african american families

tried to move into that new housing that had been built for defense workers in detroit. white residents organized the tight picket around that housing, it also blocked the moving trucks from being allowed in to drop off any of the belongings of the new families that had just arrived. the white mobs attacked the black families and forced them back by throwing rocks at them. it turned into a riot. dozens of people were injured. that was february, 1942. in thapril, 1942, these two men were19 arrested for having organized the violence. they were indicted by a federal grand jury. these two men were part of something called the national workers league. that's kind of a weird name for a group organizing anti-black violent riots, right? i mean these were defense workers whosei families these guys were attacking, this national workers league. oh, yes, it turns out it was this kind of a national workers

league. this is one of those same two men arrested for organizing the detroit defense housing race riot. this is kwh n-"life" magazine in 1944. he was in "life" magazine in 1944 because by then he had been indicted again. this time as part of an alleged seditious conspiracy to overthrow the entire u.s. government. he was still under indictment for organizing the violent attack on black families in detroit, when he got hit with that second indictment for trying to overthrow the u.s. government by force. it is not a dotted line. it is a through line between terrorizing and physicallyro attackingan minorities in the united states, and wanting to get ride of democracy and rule instead by force. these are not unrelated concepts. this is a man named theodore billbuttal, governor of mississippi in the 19-teens and 1920s, a democrat and a dixie

crat, a realignment on the raciala issues that happened i the t 1960s. he was just profiled in the "washington post" this weekend for reasons that will become clear in a moment if they are not already. hehe wrote a book in 1947 that s called "take your choice, separation or mon gralization" and in the book argued that the white people werek replaced an the whitee people would be disappeared if nonwhite people were allowed to live freely among them and if they happened to allow that much longer, white people would disappear. it was teplot, the existence of plaque people and other nonwhite people, thed insistence that ty had to abide by them and life here in america, that was a plot. liberally designed to eliminate the white race and white people had to fight back against that. july, 1946, bilbo was running for re-election to the united states senate and said the

federal government was shipping inhe blacks to vote in mississii in his race. he said those black voters shipped in would of course swamp the votes of white people and so he said that quote every red-blooded white man must use any means to keep the "n" words away from the polls in mississippi. he said quote and if you don't know what that mean, you're just plain dumb. it may shock you to learn that theodore bilbo was also a crook, a senate investigation found that in exchange for getting government contracts, he took bribes from companies, prescribes including a new cadillac, also a swimming pool, also i kid you not the excavation of a lake to create an island for his home. after calling for race war in america, to save the white race from being replaced, after calling for white people to use terrorist means against black

americans who might have wanted to vote in his re-election campaign, after being found h t be a rank criminal, taking repeated hugean bribes in exchae for his official actions as a united states a senator, theodo bilbo won re-election to the united states senate. the other party, the republicans, controlled the u.s. senate at the time, they said they weren't sure they were going to see theodore bilbo in the senate given what the investigation had turned up about the crimes and all of the bribery. southern senators though united and they said in response that if bilbo was blocked from taking his seat in the united states senate, they would block the seating of every united states senator in the united states senate. they would in other words, shut down the senate. s they would shut down the legislative branch of the federal u.s. government indefinite limit they would end the u.s. senate, unless theodore bilbo was sworn in, bribes, terrorism and all. he was their guy. they were willing to get rid of

the united states senate in order to stand up for him. the wholeun standup was only resolved whenst theodore bilbo d died from cancer before the senate ever came into session that year.me the whole standoff sort of became moot. both of those examples are from the '40s. but you know, pick a decade. i got, a million of them. this isi a man named david lan. he was part of a para military group that robbed cars and built bombs and ran military training camps and a counterfeited u.s. currency in large amounts and ultimately murdered a jewish talk radio host in denver in 1984. all of these crimes were committed, all in the name of setting off what david lane and his friends hope wood be a race war in which white people in america would killte all of the nonwhite people inam america. and like those guys who organized the attacks on black

defense plant workers and their families in detroit in the 1940n s, david lane also was lar charged with sedition. in addition to his crimes to create race war in america, to try to inspire americans to rise up and kill nonwhite people in order to survive, in order to survive as a race, in addition to all of the charges that he was convicted of along those lines, he was later charged with sedition, with being part of a seditious violent conspiracy to overthrow the united states governmentns by force. david lane had the good sense to die in federal prison. but before he did so, he managed toe popularize a slogan about w white people in america need to kill everyone whoop is not whit in order to protect the future of the white race because somehow being a white person is such a fragile state of existence, that the near existence ofex nonwhite people near white people is enough to make white people melt like they're made of sugar and it's raining. that david lane slogan about

protecting a future for white children, a it's a 14-word long slogan and people on the far right ever since have turned the number 14 into a kind of talisman to promote that slogan, so the number 14 is the kind of thing you might get tattooed on you next to the swastika. the number 14 was reportedly painted on the bushmaster assault rifle that was usd by the 18-year-old while male who allegedly shot and killed tin mostly elderly african americans at the tops supermarket in buffalo this weekend. the buff hoe news reports that this young man had the "n" word painted on the barrel of the gun he used and the number 14 closer to the stock. and prunlbly that's for david lane's 14 word slowing been how white people need to attack all of the nonwhite people or else, about how it is some sort of existential threat to white people for them to peacefully live alongside nonwhite people as fellow americans.

this is what you might call an ongoing problem. pick your state. pick your degree of notoriety or on skurkts it is over and over again from the far right in the united states. . it swings back and forth from terroristic violence to murder to electoral politics to fantasies about racial purity to conspiracies about the jews to disgust for democracy and a desire and an effort to take and hold power by force, by force of arms instead of thue our democratic force of government. this keeps coming up. recurring thing. justification and a call for the idea that whit people, it is a sure sign that theit global plo to eliminate the right race is approaching its goal. so white people need to buy guns

and stand up, and take our country anback, and make it gre again. because otherwise, white people are being replaced. and this weekend, it was ten people killed in buffalo. history all of them elder i had african americans. the shooter decorated his gun with the "n" word and the 14-wordhe slogan. and hed posted his online manifesto about hows white peoe are so endangered. how they're being replaced. and in august, 2019, it was the shooting that killed 2301 peopl mostlyki latinos, at a walmart el paso, texas, and in that case, that guy too posted his online manifesto about hout white people are so endangered and how they're being replaced. before that april of 2019, a synagogue in california, where a man posted his online manifesto how white people are so endangered and being replaced. and march 2019, christchurch new

zealand who killed 51 people in two different mosques and posted his online manifesto how white people are so endangered and being replaced and before that, it was october 2018, 11 people killed at the tree of life synagogue in pittsburgh, pennsylvania, the shooter posting all over right wing social media sites how white people are so endangered and being replaced. and before, that 2017, the very fine people the former president talked about p marching with ti torches in charlottesville, virginia, shouting to the cameras as they marched how white people are so raendangere and howre white people are bein replaced. you will not a remace us. jews will not replace us. it is not a news n because they

this ideology, and are inspired by it. they are. that's what is leading them to kill all of these people. but beyond, that they keep doing this. doing it, because they're not only in adherence of that ideology, they are evangelists for it as well. they want to spread this ideology to others. they want to make it famous. they want to make it popular. they want more white people to understand this concept and think this way, and act like them, because of it.

that's why they all post these stupid manifestos online. these explanations of the supposed reasons for their murders. so we allhe have to learn about their assinine pitiful old theories so we can take the time to learnwe about it and explain why, why all of those poor beautiful old ladies in buffalo this weekend hadol to be murder by anad assault rifle while the were doing their grocery shopping. i mean what t do you do? it doesn't help to pretend we don't know the motive for these repeated terroristic mass murders. they're part of a terrorist movement that is both murderous and seditious. in this country. one that is surging anew in terms of its mainstream in

influence right now in media and politics. seeing who is aiding and abetting it is valuable, to head off one of the next inevitable one of these murderous attack, enabling what these guys are dwhoog they're doing and what they're citing as the pretext ule justification for their action. it only excuses for example the conservative politicians and conservative tv shows that continue to spread this intellectual diarrhea despite the death toll it has already racked up inh all of these attacks. but it is nauseating, right? i mean to me at least, it is naus ating to be talking about their ideas at all. to be talking about the murderous fantasies they all share. that they hope will inspire more killing, more attacks, more terrorism. if only they can just spread the word to enough white people. this is a problem not just about murder and violence, but about information. it is about finding a way to learn what's going on.

learning enough to be sharp and real about what's happening online andha what's happening i right wing politics to activate these kind of killers, while also in so doing not helping them spread the word, not helping them spread these ideas. how do you do that? how do we do it right now? today, in the wake of the buffalo murders, how do we do it every day from here on out? joiningo us now is ben collins nbc news reporter who covers disinformation, extremism and internet, and i'm glad you're able to be here tonight. thanks so much. >> thank you for having me. >> so you cover disinformation and extremism for a living. i just want to ask you bluntly and it's okay if the answer here is no. is the tension that i'm feeling here real and warranted, this tension between understanding thete extremism that's at work here while also desiring not to spread it, not to popularize it? >> it's a very real tension. and it's something that i

personally, work with doing this job. i was thinking all saturday, how do i help people understand what is in this manifesto and understand mostly that this man is not alone in thinking this, part of a community of i people who want to murder people without trying to spread that message and it is really difficult. i spent the last day or two just looking through his discord that he has posted to, you know, like a diary, since december. and it's incredibly and deeply chilling. the idea that he had was, you know, he was going to go to supermarket instead of a church or a school which he thought about, he thought about going to a school down the street because he deduced that there were more black children t in that school because he thought they didn't test as well, that's how racist this man was, but he decided instead to go to the supermarket, because he wanted to make sure every black person

feared for their life everywhere theye went. and i don't really know how to say that people, say that without quoting him in that way, but it is the tension that we have. and just avoiding it now or, you know, taking those ideas that he has, and try to moderate them a little bit, which is what frankly tucker carlson tries to do, that's irresponsible. i don't have a solution for this. i think people talked today about banning 4chan or blaming twitch and that's fine, you can do whatever you want and if you were to ban 4chan, these people would use a vpn and get around it, it is based in japan and not a lot of jurisdiction in it for us and people will find a way to get to 4chan if they want to get to 4chan. there is a civic responsibility though to not take their ideas and take the murder out of it and say it is political

legitimate discourse on the highest rated news show and not to run on it as a political platform and i don't know how to make people to stop from doing that and instead of stopping, they are absconding responsibility. >> ben, what happens to these manifestos that get published online? or even the live streams of the killings, which we saw this weekend in, buffalo. and we sue previously in christchurch and other terrorist attacks like this. how do those things live online? how do they function? and do they accomplish what the killers want, which is to both spread and popularize the ideas that motivateiz them, and also radicalize and galvanize the action of the people who already believe them. >> absolutely. this man had a very specific plan on what to do, posted it in his manifesto and then he did it. he outlined what he was going to

do once he got his camera on his head to go inside to make it look like a first person shooter video game. what he was going to do was he was going to post a link to the manifesto, a link to his twitch stream to people he previously interacted with discord. and video games, with a chat on the internet, especially if you're an teenager, anybody wh interacted with him got the message and those who had nothing to do with extremist politics and he was about to go to the supermarket and here are a series ofer diaries complaini of the attack. the mayor began to watch this on realtime on twitch. some of those people started to archive this. and this is how we know these videos exist is. so bad guys or some of the people who interact and new the ins and outs of 4chan started posting it there. that is why it is decentralized. and this is something that happened on an amazon-owned

company's server, twitch, that tried to take it down realtime and spread to 4chan and spread to other website, and this was an 8chan, knockoff, someone created an 8chan branded website. this is not something you can stop. if somebodyme wanting to do thi they can get it out this and they realize the next person will include their name in the next manifesto. that manifesto is, you know, a recitation of everyone else's previous talking points. it's literature to them. and they build on it. in fact, this is, you know, the spookiest part of this, i would say to me, is that the format is pretty set out. you go in and you write about white replacement. pretty much the same thing as the last guy. and then do you a q&a with yourself, to figure out why it's happening and then you list your ammo, drop a bunch of 4chan names that inspire you.

the last ferent than one. i'm actually inured to it at this point, rachel. but it is unfortunately a set thing. they have figured out exactly the format for white nationalist terror manifestos. >> ben collins covers disinformation, extremism and the internet for nbc news and it is a difficult beat, difficult for the toll on the people who cover it. and ben, thanks for joining us tonight. >> thanks for the time, rachel. we have much more ahead tonight. we will be speaking among other folks with the state representative who is the majority leader in the new york state legislature, who represents the district where these killings happened. we have a lot ahead for us tonight. stay with us.

it's time for our memorial day sale on the sleep number 360 smart bed. why choose proven quality sleep from sleep number? because every green thumb, 5k, and all-day dance party starts the night before. the 360 smart bed senses your movement and automatically adjusts to help keep you both comfortable all night. and can help you get almost 30 minutes more restful sleep per night.

sleep number takes care of the science. all you have to do is sleep. don't miss our weekend special. save $1,000 on the sleep number 360 special edition smart bed, queen now only $1,999. and free premium home delivery when you add a base, ends monday

the city of buffalo, new york, has a beautiful extensive and famous system of parks. the legendary landscape architect frederick wall olmstead after he designed central park in new york city,

he had an even bigger vision for buffalo, a system of multiple city parks connected by tree-lined parkways. this by integrating the parks into the city. and one of those early parkways was called humbolt parkway. and the first half of the 20th century, a black middle class neighborhood called hamlin park began to emerge around it. it was lovely. and so of course, as in black neighborhoods and cities across the country, in the 1950s and the 1960s, city planners decided to build a giant highway right through the middle of it. first, they cut down all of those grand trees on humbolt parkway. then they dug out the whole parkway to struct an expressway to better connect mostly white suburban drivers to downtown buffalo. that new expressway cut off the black community in buffalo and they also poured more pollution into that black neighborhood which over the decades has had serious health implications for that community and cut off black

residents stuck on the east side of that highway from the basic necessities of life, like grocery stores. that's why in 20 2003, something as simple as a grocery store finally opening on buffalo's east side, that was a big news-making event, because residents on the east side had been calling for a grocery store, literally something that basic and simple, for years and years and years, before they finally got one. when that grocery store, the tops market on jefferson avenue, opened in 2003, it became not just a local grocery store, but a community gathering place for the resilient, long-standing east side black community in buffalo. and that's why it was targeted. in his racist online ranting, the gunman that killed ten people and injured three more at that tops market this weekend, he said he zeroed in on this specific zip code of that store because it had one of the highest shares of black residents in all of new york state. one of the most segregated cities in the country, he picked

out the area with the highest concentration of black residents, and then he targeted the place where those residents were most likely to congregate. as nbc's ben collins just reported here on our air moments ago, the alleged shooter also mused online about possibly targeting a church in that neighborhood, or maybe a school. he decided on the tops grocery store instead, because targeting a grocery store was novel, and he wanted to have the maximum terrorizing effect. he wanted to make black americans feel unsafe literally anywhere they might go. in 2003, that same year the tops market opened on buffalo's east side, that neighborhood also got a new state assembly woman. her name is crystal peoples-stokes. representative peoples-stokes represents that district to this day. she is now the democratic majority leader of the assembly and the first woman and first african american to hold that post. she knows that tops market on jefferson avenue very well. like just about everybody else in that neighborhood, she does

her shopping there, too. joining us now from outside the tops market in her district is new york state assembly majority leader crystal peoples-stokes. madam leader, thanks for joining us. i know this is an incredibly difficult time. >> this is a very difficult time. it is very difficult. but these are challenges that black people in particular have had to experience our entire existence in america. we're resilient people and we will come through there without becoming the haters that people would like to see us hate. >> what do you think about the way that the country is talking about this and looking at buffalo and looking at your community since this happened? i imagine this are frustrations. i imagine there are things that people are getting wrong or that they're reducing beyond the necessary complexity to really get it. are there things in terms of the way we are understanding what happened here that you feel like we need correction or need to be steered in a different way? >> well, there are a ton of things that need to be

corrected. i don't know if it is all about legislation and i think people need to reach into their hearts and find a reason why they would hate somebody because of the religion or sexual orientation ort color of the skin and if you look deep for that solution, you will not find it, and it is not there and there is no way that it is okay for people to hate in that way unless somebody is convincing them that there is something wrong with us as a people and i would assure you that this isn't and i would say that those who are slewing this racial hatred on the media and organizing a way to kill people that are different from them, it is where you should read the bill of rights or perhaps recite the pledge of allegiance because it doesn't say all white people. it says "all." and if you are really a patriotic person and you love this country like we love it, then you will honor that and you will learn to be a loving person and not a hateful person. clearly, there are some needs for additional federal laws, gun

law, nobody should have to have access to assault weapons, we're not at war with each other. i live in a state where we have the toughest gun laws in the country. we cannot protect our borders from ohio, or georgia, or anywhere else, where you can buy any sort of weapon that you would like. that's something that will have to happen at the federal level. and i implore the federal level to begin working on that. >> can you tell us how your constituents are coping in these couple of days? obviously, we understand that the market itself is a really central gathering place in the community. it was hard fought to get that grocery store where it is. and because there aren't other resources like that in the community, it's a place where a lot of people came together and in a close-knit community, having so many people killed and wounded, i imagine that it's just, that everybody is connected to this without too

many, without too many leaps, too many different connections between people before you know somebody directly involved. >> everybody knows somebody who lost their life here. even if they only know them from a distant relative or a distant friend, or they went to school with them, or they went to school with their children. everybody knows somebody who lost their life here. and everybody is hurting. everybody is in pain. i actually am heart broken. i had to take a couple of days just to control my anger because this is just so unnecessary. and yes, we have seen this replicated in other places across the country to other people. but it still doesn't make it hurt any less. and we know this happens all too often. i heard the governor say yesterday, and i hope that she is correct, that this is the last time that anything ever like this happens in america, because it doesn't have to. this are things that we can do. even if we can't fix the hate that people have, we can keep them from getting access to assault weapons. we can keep them from getting

access to these magazines that will allow them to kill ten people in three minutes. that, we do not need in our society for any reason. >> crystal peoples-stokes is the new york state assembly majority leader, her district is the home of the site of this weekend's shooting, madam leader, our condolences to you and your constituents and i really appreciate you talking with us tonight. good luck, ma'am. thank you. of. >> you're very welcome. i want to thank you, i want to thank the entire state of new york, and people across this country, who have poured in their love and resources and help folks in my district. we are grateful for that. people offering not just resources in terms of food but offering opportunities for hotels, for families to get here, and offering airline tickets, and they're offering resources to help pay for funerals. they will never be forgotten. america shows its love when it's the right time. this is the right time. and we appreciate it. thank you.

>> crystal peoples-stokes, thank you, ma'am. we'll be right back. stay with us.

this? this is supersonic wifi from xfinity. it's fast. like, ready-for- major-gig-speeds fast. like riding-a-cheetah fast. isn't that right, girl? whoa! it can connect hundreds of devices at once. [ in unison ] that's powerful. couldn't have said it better myself. and with three times the bandwidth, the gaming never has to end. slaying is our business. and business is good. unbeatable internet from xfinity. made to do anything so you can do anything.

this? this is supersonic wifi from xfinity. it's fast. like, ready-for- major-gig-speeds fast. like riding-a-cheetah fast. isn't that right, girl? whoa! it can connect hundreds of devices at once. [ in unison ] that's powerful. couldn't have said it better myself. and with three times the bandwidth, the gaming never has to end. slaying is our business. and business is good. unbeatable internet from xfinity. made to do anything so you can do anything. with air superiority and then go in with your tanks on the ground. blitzkrieg. >> the question was about -- >> they told me we couldn't home school, i prayed about it, i stood on my hind legs like a man and i told him what i thought of him and the television and talk to me for 30 minutes or an hour.

>> as it says in my motorcycle club, hey diddle, diddle, right up the middle. that's my style. >> we are here because somebody put us here. governor otto wants to kill wolves, i did kill wolves while it was still on the endangered conspiracy. >> that was a crazy here in the state of politics in the state of idaho, the republican gubernatorial debate that year, the candidates for governor, 2014, the incumbent governor was butch otter, a pretty conservative republican with a real fun name. but he was not conservative enough for right wing activists in idaho who wanted to primary him out of office. that year, ide doe conservatives threw their supports mostly behind a tea party challenger, the guy you see oont right side, the far right side of the stage. when it comes for the candidates to debate, nobody paid much attention to the tea party guy because who is the biker guy and what is with the hey diddle diddle from him and why did that

120-year-old man say he killed a wolf? butch oater would go on to win the gubernatorial primary and election and served as governor of idaho for another four years but at the end of the four years when butch otter left office, he endorsed his lieutenant governor, brad little to be his replacement. it is like a fairy tale, butch otter handing off to brad little and which one eats no fat and which one eats no wing? part of the joy of covering republican politics. brad little becomes governor. the person who replaces him to become the new lieutenant governor was this person. >> all of us are by nature free and equal, and have certain in alienable rights, among which are enjoying life and liberty, acquiring, possessing and protecting property, and

pursuing happiness and securing safety. >> wait for it. here comes the gun. here comes the gun. that's idaho's current lieutenant governor janice mcgeachin, brandishing a gun in order to pressure the governor, her boss, to undue covid rules in 20206789 one time when governor little left the state, mcgeachin took it upon herself to seize the powers of the governorship and say that the mask and vaccine rules were null and void when he watt out of town. and a white supremacist conference she attended cheering on vladimir putin for you invading ukraine. tomorrow, that lieutenant governor janice mcgeachin will face off against her boss, the incumbent governor brad little

in the idaho republican primary, for governor. naturally, because she's an election denier, janice mcgeachin earned the endorsement of former president donald trump. she is not the only right wing election denier running for statewide office in i.d. idaho. the there is no incumbent secretary of state, two of the three are election deniers who said president trump won the election. and the republican attorney general in idaho is also being primaried tomorrow by another election denier. and i know there's a lot of attention on the pennsylvania republican primary tomorrow, where there is deep, deep insanity in the republican primary races for governor and senate and even for lieutenant governor, but i'm telling you, don't sleep on idaho. idaho is tomorrow, too. and there is plenty of crazy to go around. watch this space. this space both stay comfortable, and can help you get almost 30 minutes more restful sleep per night. save $1,000 on the sleep number 360 special edition smart bed, queen

now only $1,999. and free premium home delivery when you add a base. ends monday.

it is official. finland and sweden two nordic countries who have long held stances of neutrality basically have formally announced they are seeking to join nato. in sweden's case this ends more than 200 years of that country being happily militarily unaligned. vladimir putin has wanted to be seen as an historic figure, it is certainly historic, the last time sweden sought military alliance is during the napoleonic wars. mazzle tof, vladimir putin. you made history.

and finland and sweden were interested in joining nato, putin is making threats of weapons in the baltic sea. and after finland said it would apply for nato, russia cut off the electricity supply to finland. the message has been threatening but not working. sweden and finland have been moving ahead with their plans to join nato. it is official as of today. and putin has been trying to push ukraine back and now nato is getting closer and much bisser. and are we worried about what vladimir putin might do in this spot? other potential pitfalls? ahead. joining us is former ambassador i.d. i.d., former chicago council on global affairs, thanks for joining us. >> my pleasure. >> what do you make of vladimir putin's threats, saber rattling

over joining, finland and sweden. how seriously do you take the threats and what are you watching for? >> he is doing the normal saber rattling. and today, he had the speech with the heads of states of the counter nato alliance that he created, he said finland and sweden joining would be no problem for russia. the only problem would be if nato would actually put military infrastructure and capabilities into either of those countries. that's a kind of a new thing for him to say. i mean back 15, 16 years ago, he would say that the nato enlargement was fine but in the last decade or more, he has actually attacked georgia and attacked ukraine, ostensibly because they were becoming members of nato. so my sense is, he's not going to like this but he also know it's inevitable. they will move. nato will take them in. they will be protected by nato. and there is not much given his

military weakness in ukraine that he's going to be able to do to count ter. >> maybe the lesson there in terms of watching what he says, watching what he does rather than what he says, is that if you seem inclined to join nato or want to join nato, you will get attacked but if you join nato you will be as safe as every other nato country. that said, this line that he's rolling out today about how it's okay as long as there isn't any nato military infrastructure in those countries, there will be, won't they, if they join nato? doesn't this have to be military integration to make it real that they're members of the alliance? >> for sure, there has to be military integration. in some ways that has already happened. both finland and sweden have been long partners of nato. they have very compatible weapons system, communications systems, they have participated in a whole series of nato-led military operations, including in afghanistan, and including in kosovo, and sweden also participated in the campaign

against libya. so they have those capabilities. but in order to defend finland in particular, a country with a border that has 830 miles of border with russia, it's important that nato understands where the airfields are, how they might be able to reinforce finland, in order to bring forces in through ports, through airfields, to be able to defend different parts. so you do want to know the infrastructure that exists there. and where it is not good enough to say take american c-17 planes, which need a very long runway to start building up that infrastructure. for no now i think finland and sweden are saying we're happy with nato membership. we don't really want permanent deployment of nato troops on our territory but of course we'll do a whole bunch of exercises. all of which is to say the reality is they're now in nato and vladimir putin will have to think not twice but three times before he does anything to

threaten their security. >> briefly, i don't want to make too much of this, but are you concerned? do you think it's realistic or proven to worry about the prospect that nato countries won't unanimously agree to this, that a country like turkey, or that even the republican party within the united states senate might balk and say no to sweden and/or finland joining up? >> well, clearly, all 30 members have to agree to nato membership, both to invite them and to ratify the treaty changes, so that mean notice u.s. senate for example, 67 votes are necessary for a treaty change. i think all of the indications are that the republicans are going to support nato enlargement. i think we will see that this week with the vote on the ukraine assistance package which demonstrates the republican party is prepared to do what is necessary, at least large numbers of the party, in order to protect european security. you always have to worry about

other countries, turkey, hungary, and others, but i think in the end, they understand that their security depends on a strong and capable nato and at the moment that means adding finland and sweden join can the alliance and i don't think that there is a big prospect of that turning down. it

it's time for our memorial day sale on the sleep number 360 smart bed. it senses your movement and automatically adjusts so you both stay comfortable, and can help you get almost 30 minutes more restful sleep per night. save $1,000 on the sleep number 360 special edition smart bed, queen now only $1,999. and free premium home delivery when you add a base. ends monday.

this past hour, we just got more details about president biden's plan to go to buffalo and expected to meet with the families of the victims who were killed and meet with law enforcement and first responders and community leaders and we learned that the bidens are expected to visit the memorial that has popped up outside the tops market where the massacre

occurred. a white house official telling nbc news tonight that during tomorrow's visit, president biden will call on congress to en jonathan months-long battle, the key port city of mariupol has officially ceded control to russia. we're live with ukraine with more on a deal to align with the final defenders to safely evacuate that steel plant. we're also live in buffalo this morning. as president biden prepares to visit the grieving city, in the wake of saturday's deadly mass shooting. and we've got new developments in the baby formula crisis. the fda reaches an agreement to reopen a shuttered plant in hopes of easing the nationwide shortage. the question is, how l