know who loudermilk was with and perhaps if there were other folks involved. the whole point is whether or not the folks who might have involved in the insurrection had inside information about the hallways, the tunnels and getting around in the capitol complex works. >> garrett haake, thanks, garrett. "deadline white house" with nicole wallace starts right now. ♪♪ ♪ hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. that alleged reconnaissance mission ahead of the january 6th insurrection, it's back in focus today in breaking news from the select committee. a brand-new letter from the committee just dropping in the last hour to republican congressman barry loudermilk of georgia which includes this accusation. we believe you have information regarding a tour you led through parts of the capitol complex on january 5, 2021. the committee adds this, quote,

public reporting and witness accounts indicate some individuals and groups engaged in efforts to gather information about the layout of the u.s. capitol as well as the house and senate office buildings in advance of january 6, 2021. they're talking about tours like the ones referenced by congresswoman sheryl in the days just after the insurrection. it was a shocking allegation in those ensuing days and one that raised some of the earliest questions about premeditation of that brutal attack on the capitol. the questions about whether or not sitting members of congress were involved in any way, shape or form in this nearly unprecedented attack on our country. here is congresswoman mikie cheryl back then. >> those that i saw on january 5th. those members of congress that

incited this violent crowd. those members of congress that attempted to help our president undermine our democracy and i'll make sure they are held accountable and if necessary make sure that they don't serve in congress. >> those accusations at the time ignited a firestorm, demands from the right from congresswoman sherrill and an ethics complaint from none other from laudermilk himself who claims the allegations were false and the republicans on the committee of which, yes, laudermilk is a member claimed reviewed security footage that they said proved there were no such tours in the days before the attack. >> today's letter, the select committee review of evidence directly contradicts that denial. that bombshell comes as wooe learning from axios in the last hour. donald trump's former a.g. bill barr is in talks to cooperate with the committee and to sit for a formal transcribed

interview, that is according to two sources with direct knowledge to axios. this breaking news as the january 6th investigation barrels ahead and this is where we start with our most favorite reporters and friends, jackie alemany is here, harry littman is back, former deputy assistant attorney general and the host of the talking feds podcast and charlie sikes is here, editor-at-large of the bull work and msnbc contributor. this letter, all of their letters pack this punch of things that they know and maybe have known for a while that we haven't, but this one is up there in terms of the drama that it ushers back in, and i just want to come back and read. this is not a subpoena and it's a letter asking for voluntary cooperation. we write to seek your voluntary cooperation in advancing our

investigation based on the review of evidence, we believe you have information regarding a tour you led through parts of the capitol complex on january 5, 2021. any reaction yet from republicans or from the committee to how this has landed? >> nicole, this news just broke and i was speaking with lawmakers as they were heading home before their next two-week recess about if they were going to provide any counter programming in june once the january 6th committee public hearings start and a lot of them immediately pivoted to the fact that they were conducting their own quote, unquote, counter investigations and still looking very much into what they claim to be security failures as well as the problem and what led to january 6th, and i also spoke with a spokesperson for the house administration ut comy and they said thaird be watching the

vote so closely, so we're going to spearhead a more aggressive investigation into can tol security and potentially even subpoena nancy -- speaker, nancy pelosi, along with her staff to find out more information, but this revelation pokes holes and shreds a lot of credibility if the republicans had anything to begin with and laudermilk who claims to have reviewed this footage lims led one of these tours in the lead-up to january 6th and it also shows, i think, the extensive amount of evidence that they've collected and they seem to be checking off the boxes to make sure they give lawmakers again the opportunity to respond to this evidence which at this point seems irrefutable especially if they have it in video form. >> harry, i feel like this letter is telling us two things.

one is they've caught a member of congress lying. i want to understand if there is criminal exposure potentially there and two, that they have evidence that a member of congress gave a reconnaissance tour. you tell me if i'm reading this correctly. >> the foregoing information raises questions to which the select commit must seek answers. public reporting and witness ktss indicate some groups engaged in information on the layout of the u.s. capitol as well as the house and senate office build next advance of january 6th. for example, in the week following january 6th, members urged law enforcement leaders to investigate sightings of outside groups in the complex on january 5th that appeared to be associated with the rally at the white house the following day. in response to those allegations, republicans on the committee on house administration, of which you are a member chase manhattaned to have review the footage and determiny there were no tours,

no books and the sleshth committee's review of evidence directly contradicts that denial. tell me what you hear in the words in this letter, harry. >> you got that right and if they can make it stick and it sure sounds that they are confident about it, i would say the most incendiary accusation we've heard against any lawmaker, the lie is just a sideshow, but they were very bold about the lie so it sets up that kind of fight, but look, if they were actually giving tours of the capitol that means it's contemplated that the insurrectionists were going to violate the capital space and do everything they did with the possible exception of the violence and this is akin of giving a map of the cockpit to mohammed atta on september 9th. it's absolutely stunning that they would be directly be

knowing about the incursion on american democracy and they're on the horns of a dilemma and loudermilk and generally. he can try to say we can cooperate and this is true of the other five, as well so they'll tell the story and he won't be able to be accurate and they sure seem confident about it, man, what an accusation against a sitting lawmaker. he actually helped people coming to invade the capitol, nowhere to go and what to do and you contrast that and juxtapose it with pence and everyone else cowering behind the doors and knowing that they facilitated that, man, oh, man, that is treacherous. >> it seems to cross so many red lines, harry. it seems to defy any ability to defend because it seems to reveal knowledge that the protest at the ellipse and the march to the capitol was never the plan that republican members

of congress were briefed on, and it brings into question those white house meetings on december 19th that special assistant to the president cassidy hutchinson has testified to and some of her testimony is in that filing regarding mark meadows, but it might explain why she was subpoenaed a third time. it seems that they are probing aggressively how many republican members were in on the plan to go inside the u.s. capitol? >> right. and it's the same thing with the worry room, to quote jamie raskin who oversold it. that does blow the roof off the capitol. if you actually have members who were making this happen and knowing whom they were dealing with, you know, besides that it's 18 crimes it's just a stunning, not just dereliction of duty, but it's an endangerment of their colleagues. it couldn't be really more incendiary, it seems to me if they can make it stick.

>> charlie sykes, who is congressman barry loudermilk? >> i'm not that familiar with him. >> me neither! >> we all will be soon. >> yeah. a note of caution, we haven't seen this evidence yet and we don't know what the full scope of this is and the full details of what it is or what his defense is going to be and again, this is very, very fresh information. i do think that the january 6th committee although would have been unlikely to have written that letter if it was solid and then it raises the question, if, in fact, he did lead a tour of the capitol the day before and it is what we are describing right now, setting the stage for the insurrection then. so what? what is going to happen? how would he be held accountable? does this amount, and i'm not

the attorney here, harry is, does this amount to seditious conspiracy? is this the kind of thing that might warrant expulsion from the house of representatives? one of the big questions is accountability and what is going to be done if it turns out that he was part of a plan to overtake the capitol. again, my note of caution here is we have the letter, but we have not seen the videotape. we don't know exactly what they have and and we don't know how loudermilk will spin all of this and this is part of this case -- i'm looking forward to the details that this committee has laid out in june, i think we'll find out these details filled in over the next few weeks. >> jackie, i want to follow up on charlie's questionary note about what we don't know yet.

this is a quote from the loudermilk ethics complaint against congresswoman sherrill within 48 hours of the insurrection. it says this, no republican member of congress led any kind of reconnaissance tours through the capitol proven by security footage captured by the u.s. capitol police. can you explain to me the chain of custody for that security footage captured by the u.s. capitol police? was it a committee that he was on? did he have the authority to say i'll watch it? what would that process have been that would have been the basis for screening, and leading him to issue that denial that again, the 1/4 committee today calls a lie. >> that is a really good question, nicole, because at this point republicans do not have the majority and since their members are ranking members and are committee chairs they do lack the subpoena power

that might potentially be required to review that footage. i'm not sure how the house administration did get that footage. they can make that request and keep their fingers crossed that the capitol police can voluntarily acquiesce and hand that footage over and it is quite possible that the 1/4 committee and one of the hundreds of investigators that are a part of this endeavor and working for almost a year now obtained footage from a different perspective or a different vantage point. we know they've been scouring documents, videos and really anything that they can get their hands on. they interviewed individuals in the lead-up to january 6th and it's possible they can get footage from someone who was that tour and maybe provided committee with the proof of this

reconnaissance mission. it's still unclear what the evidence is, what it looks like and where the committee got it from, but as they've shown time and time again, they've been pretty resourceful especially in working around some of the roadblocks and some of the bigger named figures who have refused to comply with their requests. >> and harry, i guess, and again, there is a lot we don't know, but the denial and the letter say two diametric le opposed thing, no republican member go toward the capitol any then it has this, proven by security footage. we know the person were the the first one were the rioters and they delved deep into the

conspiracy. they charged seditious conspiracy. so you look atollie alexander who went through the select committee, as well? we believe you had information regarding a tour that you led through parts of the capitol complex on january 5, 2021. >> first, i think jackie's supposition is sound, and i think come member could get footage and the majority would know. someone who is cooperating and has promised already -- this is sort of you're pretty chopped and going on a tour before your day event, i think there's a lotful selfie material that you did give over. second, the ethics committee can't really take action and a guy like loudermilk actually making a big thing to submit it

to them. he's probably count and political deadlock. your point and charlie's point is can you expect from congress and the ethics committee is just down the middle. i think probably they have footage and they'd be crazy of them to come out of the box so strongly if they were employ tee handed and the likely source is one or more people who took it. who were on the tour and that would be hard to refute. >> nicole, and -- >> go ahead, jackie. >> oh e well, that point reminded me of a little anecdote, a nugget that we dug up a few months ago on the story and just an example of how meticulous these investigators are. they were tracking every single dollar for who contributed it to providing the seating.

who paid for the. and one of the ways they did that was by will looking at a porta pot and tea the'sa. . and then called the company and got in touch with them and through there were able to figure out who even paid for the porta-potties. that is the level of meticulousness that the select committee is dealing with what it comes to what they're turning up. >> charlie, what i was going to interject before jack made a much better point is that the committee has been at this in a very opaque manner and we only see things when they have to submit a filing and before they do it's -- whoa! they had all that. mark med owes said that and the evidence that they've have, hit, and it is more leakly that not

it is boofr. >> in a lot of ways we know what is urned surface and it was by the president of the united states. i want to stress that we haven't seen the evidence yet. his denial is very, very forceful and notesis that he uses the word reconnaissance tour. take that word reconnaissance because my guess is that if there's videotape of him giving a tour his response will be that well, yes, it was not a reconnaissance tour. it was, you know, x, y, z kind of a tour. >> he was showing them where the fire exits are, right? >> well, there is what's interesting and how you parse this out, but i think that what we're learning which is really

remarkable given how long we've been talking about this is how serious this effort whether are was and whether they actually believed it that this was going to succeed that something like this was going to happen and i think going to jackie's point about how thorough this committee is, this is one of the -- i mean, they're not just throwing stuff up against the wall here. this is a committee and the investigators have done a very good job. they've, and the kind of detail that she's describing races the and they can prissent to the witnesses and say we probably don't think that we know that you were one of the people that wrote a check to the porta-potties and it adds another area of the investigation is and how

effective it is in prying loose new information. >> so the other piece of breaking news that developed right before we came on the air is that bill barr will sit with a formal interview with the committee. there had been reports that he had commune that he would sit eye tomorrower interview and the more we learn, jackie, from your reporting and how this investigation is. i think it's being let by orlt orth bill bar read, it seems like the bar is straight through for what liz clauny has been talking about.

>> bill barr did leave early in november and that was his reaction to the way trump treated his electoral defeat and the way he went about installing a bunch of loyalists in positions that bill barr was comfortable with so he did miss a lot of the dram that that took place at the department of justice that even lawmakers on the committee said ultimately were responsible for potentially preventing trump from actually succeeding in overturning the results of the election. people like acting attorney general, jeff rosen, rich donohue, stephen engel, people that at the 11th how are you, people who told donald trump they would quit because trump was willing to go along trump's scheme to potentially seize voting machines. bill barr wasn't around for a lot of that, but he can speak to a more institutional sense to the way that donald trump viewed

the office of the presidency as a vehicle for his own power, to expand power and gain power. he was around for really, really traumatic and tumultuous times where the president did actually abuse presidential powers like when he used the military to put down protests in lafayette square which bill barr was there for. captured sinners walking around and people liked mike milley as they cleared lafayette square. it is unclear what he would be able to provide investigators and if the committee is looking to paint this very detailed picture of president biden's mindset and the way he and how democracy will ultimately will work and bill barr can give a

candid picture of the former president's lack of he guard for our our institutions. >> bill barr was there, though, harry littman for the walk-up to the investigation and bill barr went on cnn to talk about voter fraud before there was vote are fraud, before it had actually want. >> he asked his supporters to vote not once, but twice. and he leaves over something and i won't quote, employ and bill barr wasn't willing to use voter fraud before the election and

something that wasn't illegal and highly unprecedented. they leave because bill barr gives an interview to the a.p. and the life long republican in america said there was no fraud. he had cover to do so, but no such luck. so bill barr may have left because it became clear to bill barr that donald trump was planning not to leave and if the end of a peaceful transfer of power was under scrutiny bill barr might be useful in understanding what was in the works before the election and after the election and before bill barr leaves, no? >> yes. emphatic yes and everything that jackie says yes, he gives them the direct big lie to trump himself. trump and he part company after a screaming match in the oval office. i guess you want to resign, accepted! barr makes a big deal about it precisely because of the big

lie. he personally shows that trump is told, and again and again, he also knows cipollone who he is close with tells trump again and again, there's no fraud here and it's to the extent the final defense of a trump would be, i actually thought i won. barr is very valuable there, as well. >> jackie alemany, and harry littman, it was a huge bombshell and we are happy you were around to start us off on it. no question about it, democracy is on the ballot this year. the gop's push to get election defires and election fraud conspiracists and outright insurrection firsts at the federal, state and local levels plus after the racially charged massacre in buffalo passing an act in congress seems like it would be easy to do, right? all 203 opponents of the bill came from the house gop which is one republican supporting it.

we'll tell you more later in the program. the trump administration retaliated against their enemies and now an inspector general said they probably did just that. all of that and more after "deadline white house" returns after a quick break. don't go anywhere. k break. don't go anywhere.

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jackie speier leaves big shoes to fill. i rose through the ranks to captain in the army. expanded access to education as a nonprofit leader. had a successful career in business. and as burlingame mayor during the pandemic, raised the minimum wage, increased affordable housing, and preserved our bayfront open space. i am emily beach. i'll take my real-life experience to get things done for us. i approve this message, and all these shoes too.

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their primary contest. times writes this, republican voters in this week's primary races demonstrated a willingness to nominate those who parrot donald trump's lies and have political control over voting systems. the results made clear that the november midterms may well affect the fate of free and fair elections in the country. the times points to pennsylvania where republicans nominated doug mastriano. he was a key player in the effort to overturn joe biden's win in that state as well as results in two other states according to these, quote, in north carolina, voters chose a gop senate nominee, ted bud who voted in congress against certifying the 2020 results and he continues to refuse to say that mr. biden was legitimately elected and over in idaho 57% of

republicans there back to the secretary of state who pushed election falsehoods though they lost a three-way race for a rival who accepts mr. biden as president. the stop the steal lie is just in five days for a pair of trump-backed candidates who had staked their campaigns on the lie about election fraud are challenging georgia's governor and georgia's secretary of state who both earned trump's wrath in 2020 for refusing to take part in his plot to overturn the results of the georgia vote. joining us now, yamiche alcindor, nbc news washington correspondent and the moderator of washington this week on pbs and john sikes is still here. we've been covering this since election day and i was reminded on bill barr's role and going on cnn and talking about how the doj would investigate voter fraud before the election transpired. this is so seeded. it has been going on for so long

and it is so dangerous that it has permeated and what is your sense of this lie. there was no fraud in the 2020 election so says bill barr, so says chris krebs and so says trump supporter, brian kemp and brad raffensperger and yet it is on the right. >> it is exactly the fault line on the right and nicole, what this is it's really the long, long shadow of january 6th casting over our nation and casting over the election systems that our democracy holds dear. you have now former president trump urging dr. oz to do what he did in 2020 which is declare victory when he was not the victor, and it might be that dr. oz eventually wins that race, but that's not the case now. not only do you have former president trump having broken all of the different precedence in our language with his

language and rhetoric, question the credibility of our election, but now have a formal major party that is really just trying to do everything it can to echo the same lies and it's troubling from the experts i've talked to. you talk about the fact that the person who has now won the republican nomination in pennsylvania. he's someone who has called into question the viability of our elections and he is going to be single-handedly deciding who the secretary of state is. you have raffensperger who released that audio that showed former president trump asking for the exact number of votes that he needed to overturn his loss in georgia. you have him now fighting for his position. so this really just, i think, underscores that even when president trump loses in terms of his losing the election or losing one of the candidates that he endorsed and losing their election, trump is far

bigger than trump ever was and ever will be. in some ways, the maga idea calls into question and it is a scary and a warning sign for though other people. pi think it's something you have to focus on where president trump is trying to declare victory, if you argue that there was a rigged election in pennsylvania it will be under the same lines in 2020 and apparently, that was legit and when the former president lost to joe biden he didn't like that result and that specific result was wrong. >> this is what i want to focus on with you, charlie. yamiche makes a smart point that trump is much bigger than trump. i would argue that in some ways as a movement, it's moved on from trump. they know what they believe and barnett makes this point in her primary. she doesn't prevail and she certainly has that last momentum because she talks about maga and

maga belongs to you and me, boys and girls, but the fraud was very specifically only on the top and it was one piece of paper and baker was on the same paper. no republicans refused to take their seats when they were re-elected because there was fraud on the ballots in georgia or pennsylvania or nevada or arizona. they all went back because there wasn't any fraud. so how do you pierce through -- it's not even hypocrisy. it's just stupidity. so the ballots were broken on the top line? every other slot worked? how can you have so much success with that message with an electorate that isn't stupid, but just so hungry for a lie, for a permission structure to hang on to the dream of trump? >> so, you are seriously looking for linear logic in all of this, you know, and obviously -- >> it's a single thing.

>> at the same time, and they'll continue to do so without breaking a sweat although david purdue is now saying his election was stolen, as well. yamiche said it extremely well. it's really january 6th forever and i think people need to understand that and donald trump has made this absolutely clear by telling dr. oz just declare that you are a victor. so not only is involvement in what we regard as seditious insurrection not a negative in republican primaries. in many cases, it's seen as a plus and -- and donald trump and many republican voters insist on that as a litmus test. i know a lot of people say well, some of these candidates only got 30% of the vote or the non-crazy candidate in idaho won, but i think what reid epistein in "the new york times"

pointed out is this pattern where you see something like 60% of republican voters voting for an ultra-maga candidate or a super maga candidate. you're right, whether trump is on the ballot and trump, and the big question is whether or not trumpism has taken on a life of its own and whether or not donald trump really controls it. it is a little bit -- we talked about this before and it's like a prairie fire. you may have thought it was a good idea and you cancontrol it and you're seeing the preliminary stages in the primaries where the maga world is still there, but it is divided among itself and there is this contest, who is the purest? who is the most extreme? who is the most unapologetically obnoxious? >> unapologetically obnoxious is

sort of their brand. i want to show you, yamiche, lee chapman at a senate hearing today really sort of issuing a warning we may look back on about public officials who spread these lies about election fraud. >> it is especially disturbing that some disinformation has come from those with a sworn duty to defend our democratic process. the november 2020 election in pennsylvania, like every election since, was free, fair and secure. allegations of illegal activity in pennsylvania's 2020 presidential election have been repeatedly dismissed and more than two dozen federal court cases and debunked by independent fact checker. repeating this, undermines the election process. >> there are facts that are calmly delivered with the

bolstering of evidence and we covered that in real time all three of us together. the number of people that will see the truth and be receptive to it is so outweighed that a number of people animated by the lie. i wonder, yamiche, what is the conversation among democratsor the pro-truth coalition that help sent joe biden to washington? what is the plan to combat not just these politicians, but these lies? >> that's a great question, nicole. when i talk to white house officials to combat that, they say is to continue to tell the truth and continue to say over and over again, not only are democrats saying that this is a lie and including republicans and brad raffensperger and attorney general barr saying the doj looked into this and their election systems are very fair, very accurate.

when i talk to the base and talking to voters who are frankly frustrated in philadelphia, in pittsburgh, the democrats have to get as aggressive as republicans. they see republicans electing officials who have real power and not just sort of power to tweet out things. they have real power when they think about that gop nominee david mastriano if he wins in pennsylvania he'll have real power over the election system. so when i talk to voters they're very frustrated and the democrats need to be doing more legislatively and they tell me when it comes to the executive branch and what sort of eos president biden might be able to sign. there is a real concern among democratic voters and among democratic lawmakers there's a sense that this virus hads spiralled and it's january 6th forever and they don't know what to do. >> respectfully suggest they get a room with their voters and try

to figure it out. yamiche, it's amazing, your reporting on the road has been so illuminating. thank you so much for taking time. >> in the wake of the racist killings in buffalo, new york, republicans again miss or skip an opportunity to do something about the domestic terrorism problem in this country. we'll tell you about the latest example of that after a quick break. don't go anywhere. break. don't go anywhere. ♪ ♪ introducing the all-new infiniti qx60. take on your wild world in style. ♪ lemons. lemons. lemons. lemons. look how nice they are.

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this false, ignorant, race-baiting theory called the great replacement has been used in multiple race-based terrorist acts and there are a number of my republican colleagues who spew this vile and venomous rhetoric. the silence of republican leadership and their ranks in condemning this rhetoric that is not just ripping our country apart, but contributing to the death of americans, that shows that they are no longer the party of lincoln or even the party of ronald reagan. >> powerful words from delegate stacy plaskett on the house floor calling out republicans in congress during a debate over legislation to address growing domestic violent extremism in this country in the wake of the deadly shooting in buffalo bia white supremacist. only one republican voted for the bill which passed late last night. the alleged shooter appeared

briefly in court today after being indicted by a grand jury. he is expected back in court june 9th and will be held without bail. doy is investigating that killing as a possible hate crime. joining me is eddie glaude and we've been having this conversation with you. you made that point after the el paso massacre where his manifesto quoted many anti-immigration and anti-immigrant espoused by the ex president and the media. i still get chills when that clip circulates, but how do you take an argument to the country where adam kinzinger that a country living in fear of domestic violent terrorism is not who we want to be. what does that sound like?

>> well, i mean, i think we're in a moment where we have to figure out who they're going to be as a nation and we have to be honest with ourselves and part of that is to understand the relationship between this monstrous act in buffalo and in el paso and in pittsburgh and in charlottesville and we can go on in orlando and we can give so many examples and the broader context of the debates around race that we have in this country, the critique of critical race theory which we know is in some ways a manufactured crisis. the worry about the kinds of stories we tell ourselves. the way in which the debates around immigration have taken shape. when we think about the claim around open borders and the idea that has circulated in certain quarters in this country that the democrats are trying to in some ways engage in this sinister plot to overrun white voters and you hear it from the mouths of rich lowery and from

the mouth of ted cruz and matt gaetz and others and i would want to draw a straight line between that rhetoric as a way of fertilizing the soil and this heinous act, and so we have to begin to own our own responsibility for the context for this sort of thing. it is very interesting, nicole. people will hide behind the debates behind free speech in order to protect those persons who want to exploit grievance and hatred for their own cynical gains. how do we make the argument? there has to be a moral argument with political implications and it continues down the path, it seems to me. >> eddie is absolutely right, charlie. it's not a legal argument and it benefits all of us and all of these conversations for as long as that is, and we should knock wood now in all these conversations from here on

forward, but the moral piece is clearly what's broken and especially for a republican party not just in my lifetime, but in my career was willing to do everything, everything to protect the homeland from a different kind of terrorism, foreign terrorism. seems unwilling to even say the words out loud and acknowledge what christopher wray, donald trump's hand-picked fbi director testified as what is the gravest terrorism threat to the homeland and that is domestic terrorism rooted in the ideology of white supremacy. >> i was thinking about that today. the dramatic contrast between our response as a nation to the attacks on 9/11, contrasted to the response to these acts of domestic terrorism which continue to proliferate, you know, and eddie was going through a list of these incidents and, look, one of the seminal works of conservatism is ideas have consequences and i

think it's inarguable that toxic, racist ideas often have consequences and they are fatal consequences. so this vote yesterday on the domestic terrorism legislation was fascinating to me this same or pretty much the same piece of legislation was passed unanimously by voice vote in 2020, so what's happened? what's changed? why would the republican party make it a party line vote to say, we are not going to take domestic terrorism more seriously? and you mentioned, you know, the focus on homeland security, and i remember you, i remember this very, very well, when democrats blocked the department of homeland security, that became a major issue in the 2002 midterm elections, and this ought to be a major issue. are we going to confront domestic terrorism? and take that to the republicans, because this is the weak spot that, in fact, this is

the party of law and order, this is a party that spent decades stressing that they were strong about terrorism, but who are the terrorists now? what is the threat? and i think what you saw yesterday was a tremendous reluctance to even acknowledge that this -- the reality of domestic terrorism and a certain, i don't know, maybe a guilty consciousness that if they took an aggressive position on this, that it might ensnare some of their allies and they might be held accountable for some of their own rhetoric. >> yeah, their guilty conscience was showing. eddie and charlie, stick around. lie, .

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we're back with eddie and charlie. eddie, i want to read you something from the "washington post." elected republicans haven't merely inspired far-right extremists, they have become far-right extremists. one study released on friday by the institute for research and education on human rights, a decades-old group that tracks right-wing extremism, found that more than one in five republican state legislators in the united states were affiliated with far-right groups. eddie, it's taken over sort of from part of the constituency whose votes they want to -- i mean, the theory went that trump didn't want to alienate the proud boys because he wanted the votes of the proud boys. you now have a study that has one in five republican state

legislators in the u.s. affiliated with those far-right groups. >> yeah. you remember that i think the underlying logic of the trump campaigns was that, you know, there were more disaffected white voters than there were these other americans, and that if we could appeal to why they were disaffected, appeal to their resentments and grievances, then maybe we could turn them out and that strategy worked in so many ways, and so you see a part -- i think dana's absolutely right. there's a party that has in some ways become beholden to not only that strategy but to the ideology behind that strategy. and i think there's something charlie said in the other segment, nicole, that we have to kind of wrap our minds around. what's changed? what's changed? in terms of our reaction to foreign terrorism. what's changed is that these are our neighbors. these are people we love. the intimacy of our hatreds are in full view right now, is in full view, and so part of what the challenge we have to -- we face is that we have to make the

moral argument, a, by describing the republican party for what it is, b, by describing the cynical nature of politicians who are exploiting it, and i think c is really kind of confronting the way in which hatred evidences itself in our everyday personalize, it seems to me. >> to be continued with both of you. eddie glaude, charlie sykes, thank you so much for spending time with us today. up next for us, we'll have much more on this afternoon's breaking news that the january 6th select committee is asking for information and a voluntary visit from a republican lawmaker about a tour he gave of the capitol on january 5th. we'll have that story after a quick break. we'll have that story after a quick break. ne, you're binging the latest true crime drama. while the new double oven you financed is taking care of dinner and desert, you're remembering how to tie a windsor. and while your washer is getting out those grass stains, you're practicing for the big leagues! for all of life's moments

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hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in new york. we go back to our top story today, the breaking news from the january 6th select committee and their brand-new letter to a sitting republican member of congress. the new letter to republican congressman barry loudermilk of georgia shines light on a notable, perhaps shocking, line of inquiry that is currently under way by the select committee. the question is this. whether or not members of congress were in any way, shape, or form involved in alleged reconnaissance tours of the u.s. capitol in the days prior to the january 6th insurrection. from that new letter to congressman loudermilk, quote, based on our review of evidence in the select committee's possession, we believe you have information regarding a tour you led through parts of the capitol complex on january 5, 2021. the committee is asking for a

meeting, a voluntary meeting, this is not a subpoena, with loudermilk last week. loudermilk was one of the house republicans who objected to the certification of president joe biden's victory. we also know he was in contact with then chief of staff mark meadows while the insurrection was taking place. from those thousands of text messages mark meadows turned over, obtained by cnn, quote, it is really bad up here on the hill. they have breached the capitol, georgia republican representative barry loudermilk wrote. quote, potus is engaging, meadows sent in response to loudermilk. quote, thanks, this doesn't help our cause, loudermilk responds. it's where we start the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. john brennan is here. also joining us, carol leonnig, dan goldman's back, former assistant u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york, as well as the former majority counsel during donald trump's first impeachment trial. with me at the table for the hour, former top state

department official rick stengel is here. all of them, msnbc contributors. carol leonnig, i have to start with you. congresswoman mikie sherrill made this allegation in a streamed conversation with constituents after the january 6th insurrection, and it ignited a fire storm of criticism that reconnaissance tours were under way. this letter from the 1/6 committee makes abundantly clear that they know that congressman loudermilk led a tour on january 5th and they have questions about it. >> you're absolutely right, nicole, it's kind of amazing to now come full circle from right after the january 6th riot, the insurrection, the attack on our icon of democracy, there were so many members of the democratic leadership who were almost looking behind share the shoulder as if a drug dealer or gunman was behind them in the

republican party in their midst, because they believed, and they were told numerous times that there had been these bizarre tours given. capitol police, as i remember reporting at the time, indicated they had no evidence that republicans had given any tours that were curious or disturbing or mischievous, and indeed, it said that it was possible people had given tours because they were brand-new members of congress and brought a couple of family members in. now, loudermilk is being asked about a specific tour, and i can't think that that's just a fishing expedition. again, i'm not speculating about what he was involved in, based on his texts to mark meadows, i'm not alleging anything about him, but i can't believe the committee is asking him about this tour without any decent reason to try to understand why it was he was bringing people into the capitol in the day

before the attack. >> and dan, i just want to read more of the letter, provide more of this context. again, to carol's question, we don't know what the 1/6 committee's evidence is behind this request for a voluntary sitdown interview with mr. loudermilk, but we know that that denial based on a review of security footage is something the committee isn't accepting at face value. let me read this from the 1/6 committee's letter. "based on our review of evidence in the select committee's possession, we believe you have information regarding a tour you led through parts of the capitol on january 5, 2021. the foregoing information raises questions to which the select committee must seek answers. public reporting and witness accounts indicate some individuals and groups engaged in efforts to gather information about the layout of the u.s. capitol as well as the house and senate office buildings in advance of january 6th, for example, in the week following january 6th, members urged law enforcement leaders to

investigate sightings of outside groups in the complex on january 5th that appeared to be associated with the rally at the white house the following day. in response to those allegations, republicans on the committee on house administration, of which you are a member, claimed to have reviewed security footage from the days preceding january 6th and determined, quote, there were no tours, no large group, no one with maga hats on. however, the select committee's review of evidence directly contradicts that denial." the committee seems to be calling b.s. on this specific denial that, quote, there were no tours, no large groups, no one with maga hats on. its significance in your view, dan goldman. >> let's call a spade a spade. the committee is saying the republicans lied. they flatout lied about whether or not there were tours, and if i'm going to go to the mat right now and guess who is right, i

would take liz cheney, bennie thompson, and the january 6th committee 100 times out of 100 and it is just further evidence of a cover-up by the republicans to their own involvement in the effort to overturn the election and in their involvement in creating the events of january 6th. and so, this is really -- one of the only times that we have learned from this -- directly from the january 6th committee about its really impactful and important evidence that they have gathered that sheds light on many of the open questions that remain about january 6th. and it is interesting that they're doing this a couple weeks before their hearings. they're giving representative loudermilk the opportunity to come in and to talk about both his own tour and why he, as a

member of the committee on administration, lied to the -- to, you know, the public about what he -- what they saw in that video. so, i think it's quite significant for a number of reasons. >> let me play for all of you the video with congresswoman mikie sherrill where she alleges all this exactly, what is alleged in this january 6th committee letter. about reconnaissance tours. let's play that. >> i also intend to see that those members of congress who embedded him, those members of congress who had groups coming through the capitol that i saw on january 5th, reconnaissance for the next day, those members of congress that incited this violent crowd, those members of congress that attempted to help our president undermine our democracy, i'm going to see that they're held accountable, and if necessary, ensure that they don't serve in congress. >> so, director brennan, this

1/6 committee's final phases of the investigation, at least in terms of the final phases that precede the public hearings in june, seems squarely focused on the republicans and either their complicity or knowledge or in the case of this congressman, a tour he gave on january 5th. what do you think the significance is of what is public facing and what we're seeing and hearing? >> well, first of all, nicole, i want to compliment representative cheney and kinzinger for their bravery and their willingness to stand up to the criticism and the condemnation of the republicans. i think it's critically important that they continue this work, and it's quite obvious that what the committee is saying is that they do have evidence that contradicts some of these statements and comments of these republican members of congress who tend to masquerade as defenders of our democratic principles but in fact may be withholding critical information that is necessary for the

committee to get through its work, and so it's unclear whether or not representative loudermilk, if he did conduct such a tour, whether he knew about the intentions of the individuals that went along with them and this is something that is critically important for them to find out and they're only going to get to that if he is willing to comply with their request that he voluntarily appear in front of the committee, and that's why i think it's important that they continue to pursue this and just like representative sherrill said, it's important for us to get to the bottom of what happened on january 6th. >> you're going to be the beneficiary of something that just came across our desk, you saw it come through. in response to this letter from the january 6th committee, which as director brennan accurately puts, is co-chaired by one of his republican colleagues, former member of leadership, liz cheney, he's asking for the u.s. capitol police to, quote, release the tapes of january 5th. now, that's fine. his denial is specifically about what was on the capitol police

tapes, but the letter from the 1/6 committee says nothing of the capitol hill police tapes. so, they're really not -- it's really -- he's not addressing what they allege. they find out about a tour and they're saying that his denial -- this. there were no tours, no large groups, no one with maga hats on, they have evidence that contradicts that. they don't say they saw something different on the capitol police tapes. >> no. >> this is an interesting response from mr. loudermilk. >> well, it's sort of trying to slice and dice it rather than to be up front about it. it sounds like the january 6th committee obviously has evidence, has video evidence. >> that they say contradicts the sentence, there were no tours, no large groups, no one with maga hats on. >> yes. i mean, again, we're going to see the evidence, and what this points out, as we've also said before, the january 6th committee knows a whole heck of a lot more than we know. they know a whole heck of a lot more than we think they know. we're seeing it through a key

hole. they're saying it in three dimension and they're going to tell that story. and you know, they have been comprehensive. they have been deliberative. and this is just another example, as dan said earlier, this is obviously not a fishing expedition letter. they have the evidence. and we're going to see it. >> yeah, and i mean, carol, it sort of gets to the point of what we know about the committee is two things. one, we only know a fraction of what they know, and i would say carol leonnig, you probably know a little more than the public from your reporting on your book and the reporting for the paper. but when it comes to how this committee treats republican members of congress, it appears even from my vantage point that that's some of the most heavily deliberated and deliberate steps this committee takes. >> yes, that, nicole, and their communications with the department of justice. it's almost like some sort of metro third rail to talk about your republican lawmakers in

public and also in these public speaking letters, you know, as dan and others know well, lots of times, there are speaking indictments. bennie thompson's letters often have this sense of, i'm speaking to both the potentially guilty and i'm telling the public, be on guard for what's coming. but talking about the lawmakers that are in your party and then subpoenaing them to speak, this is big stuff. because it doesn't have a lot of precedent. we haven't had an experience like this in a century. the idea of republican lawmakers being accused of trying to undermine the country's sort of fiber, trying to undo what has been a sort of revered and honorable tradition that nobody ever challenged before. the peaceful transfer of power. what george h.w. bush used to say, as i recall from some of

his conversations with his aides and also his secret service agents, dang, we lost, and now it's time to go. that's not what donald trump did. and a slew of republican lawmakers encouraged him not to go and tried to enable a path in which he could remain. now, you asked a good question about the committee. i couldn't agree more with rick about all the things we don't know. there's been a lot of speaking in these letters that tell you almost salaciously, like, we've got some good stuff, but my understanding is that when raskin -- representative raskin said, it's going to blow the roof off, you can't even imagine all the things behind that. i mean, it's not just about vice president pence, whether or not he got into a limo and refused -- or rather, why he refused to get into a limo that

day. >> yeah, actually, i was handed some more breaking news, dan goldman. this will go to you. to what care leonnig is saying, let me read it to you first. politico just dropped a story that says this. "congressional investigators have obtained a batch of official white house photographs, including images taken on january 6th, 2021, according to two sources familiar with the evidence. the previously unreported cache which arrived via the national archives may provide the committee with realtime visual evidence of former president donald trump's actions and movements as a mob of his supporters battered their way into the capitol and threatened the transfer of power to joe biden. at least some of the photos were taken by official white house photographer craighead, the sources indicated. committee chairman bennie thompson confirmed that the panel had obtained some of craighead's photos. though he declined to describe their content.

asked whether the panel had spoken to craighead as a direct witness, thompson said this, not yet." i believe donald trump got in a fight with craighead about a book she wanted to publish for someone so concerned with how his hair looks, it doesn't seem like a wise thing to do, but that's just his hair. this seems like photo evidence that could get to the heart of something liz cheney has talked about in rules committee hearings and in the select committee gatherings, which is the dereliction of duty that she has described from witness testimony, it sounds like these photos could paint a -- an actual visual portrait of donald trump's conduct and actions or perhaps even inaction during the insurrection. >> no question. and i think when we learned about that seven-and-a-half-hour gap in the phone records, one of the things i remember speaking with you about, nicole, is that the committee will be able to piece much of that time period together, whether it's through

witnesses on the other side of phone conversations or other witnesses who were present and who could recount what happened and now through photographs. i'm very curious to see if they have any photographs of donald trump on the telephone, which would be fascinating, given that he reportedly did not speak on the phone for seven hours and 30 minutes, according to white house rortsds. records. but you know, you also hit a nail on the head, and i think it's something for everybody to pay close attention to. you have been doing this long enough, nicole, that you are an honorary member of the bar, but the type of response where you evade answering the direct question is what we prosecutors would really hone in on, and it's exactly the right question to ask. are you responding directly to what is being alleged? or are you evading? are you responding to something completely different?

and the fact that congressman loudermilk is building a strawman of video evidence or capitol police video evidence, and then knocking it down is irrelevant. the evidence could be witness testimony. it could be anything. and he has no idea what the evidence is. it's not necessarily video evidence. or maybe it's both. and so, when people start doing that, they are in a prosecutor's view, incriminating themselves even further. >> well, dan, i mean, what's interesting is that, as you say, i am not a lawyer, and i learned of this story on live tv, so if i poked holes in it, it can't be his legal strategy. it's clearly his political strategy. and i wonder if you think that this guy who i never heard of before today, loudermilk, could sort of be a straw breaking the camel's back of republican solidarity. i mean, there are five members who are facing enforceable subpoenas from the january 6th select committee. do you think any one of them is having a conversation with their lawyers going, we don't know

what we don't know about what loudermilk did. do you think it's more likely that it's a conspiracy and they'll all continue to hang together? >> well, these congressmen have, you know, a different calculus here, because they are in office, and you know, it's one thing for steve bannon to take the fifth or roger stone to take the fifth, and they're outside players on the fringes anyway, and everybody knows they're criminals to begin with, so it's not that big a deal. but if you have a sitting congressman who takes the fifth because he's concerned that any testimony might incriminate him, that's a whole other story. and so, they're really in a different position because politically, they cannot take the fifth, but legally, any good defense lawyer may encourage them to take the fifth, so they're a little bit stuck in an interesting position. my guess is that they make up some bogus reason why they won't go in and testify to avoid having to take the fifth and to

avoid testifying and either lying or incriminating themselves. which also comes with its political consequences. you know, i think what we're learning about loudermilk is that he was part of a direct lie to the public and perhaps to the committee. i would be shocked if someone who would do that is going to traipse right on in voluntarily to meet with the committee. my guess is he will see how it plays out with the other five who have been subpoenaed, and he will wait to see how that works rather than jump in before that whole situation plays itself out. >> is played out. i want to read a little bit more from the breaking news about the photos for you, director brennan. politico is reporting that the panel has been amassing evidence of donald trump's movements and actions on the day of january 6th, attempting to reconstruct a minute-by-minute account of what the former president was doing while rioters smashed through police lines and disrupted the counting of electoral votes.

the last step in finalizing joe biden's 2020 election victory before his inauguration. the committee has already obtained from the national archives a private schedule that revealed attendees of a key oval office meeting as well as call logs and diary entries typically barred from public view. you know, we probably don't talk about it enough or remind our viewers enough of the consequences of, this went all the way to the supreme court, this almost unprecedented document dump from the national archives to the committee has given them access to more than is publicly known, and when you look at the stakes for the public hearings and you look at what could still be revealed, what is your sense of where the priorities are for educating the public about what a normal president does in the united states capitol is under attack and his vice president's life is threatened by his supporters and what this committee may have unearthed? >> well, clearly, it was a very intense and very important day,

january 6th, and i worked at the white house for four years under the obama administration, and like you, nicole, i know that the white house photographer is omnipresent, especially on days of great interest, and so i am sure that the white house photographer, during the trump administration, was snapping photos consistently throughout that period of time and having that documentary evidence of who he was talking to, where he was, as dan said, whether he was using some of these throwaway phones or on the phone in the oval office, i think this is going to be critically important to filling in what i think is the largest gap in at least the public knowledge. also, i would presume, in the committee's knowledge of what transpired during that day and what donald trump was involved in. now, there is going to be still photos, but also, they're able to present it to witnesses or those that they want to call to find out exactly what was being said, what was happening when these photos were taken. >> no, it's amazing.

ask someone a question, say, really? and show them the picture, do you want to change your answer? it is incell. incredible. i traveled with president bush. the photographer is always right there.. it's really two significant developments. thank you for starting us off. director brennan and rick stengel stick around a little bit longer with us. we're going to sneak in a quick break. don't go anywhere. 're going to quick break. don't go anywhere. bipolar depression. it made me feel trapped in a fog. this is art inspired by real stories of bipolar depression. i just couldn't find my way out of it. the lows of bipolar depression can take you to a dark place. latuda could make a real difference in your symptoms. latuda was proven to significantly reduce bipolar depression symptoms and in clinical studies, had no substantial impact on weight. this is where i want to be. call your doctor about sudden behavior changes or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. report fever, confusion,

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wise wisdom by heart, when someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time. well, this week, in both word and deed, republicans are telling all of us exactly who they are. just the latest instant, the most prominent gathering of american conservatives, cpac, is kicking off in hungary, of all places. the keynote speaker, the recently re-elected prime minister, viktor orban, a far-right head of state accused of curbing media and judicial independence, enriching associates with public funds and recasting election laws to entrench his power. and if the selection of orban wasn't alarming enough, just wait until you hear what he said in his speech before that conference this morning, orban insisted, quote, progressive liberals, neomarxists, dazed by their woke dream, people financed by george soros and promoters of open societies want to annihilate the western way of life that you and us love so much. we must coordinate the movement of our troops as we face a big

test. 2024 will be a decisive year, he said. joining our conversation, mark mckinnon, co-host of "the circus". kror brennan and rick stengel are still here. cpac is, in honor of you, a circus, but it's become something much darker. i used to go when i worked in the white house, and it was sort of a night for the nutty people who didn't always prevail in all the policy debates. it has now become america's leading autocratic force, pulling us toward autocracy, autocratic leaders like orban. what do you do about it now? >> well, nicole, you're so right. the thing that shocks me about this, it's not some back channel with paul manafort or some sort of dark, sinister forces. it's out in the open, embracing out democratic regimes shamelessly and proudly, and you know, i think about what our old

bosses, john mccain or george w. bush would think about this sort of approach for the republican party. it's so anti-democratic ideals across the board. to be supporting an autocrat like this. and it gets into the whole replacement theory that tucker carlson's been talking about, and of course, he hosted orban and orban loves tucker, who's videoed into the speech, into the conference today. so, you know, the bigger picture about all the things happening in the republican party that i think concern us, there's lots of things, but the bottom line, big picture, dark problem for me, and i think for you, is just that the republican party, at the end of the day, just keeps leaning further and further away from american ideals, american and democratic ideals of american democracy. >> and rick, i mean, i'd like for you to sort of pull the thread on orban's role.

i mean, he's not criticized putin directly. he's participated in some of the sanctions programs but not as aggressively as his neighbors. and he has -- he's not thread the needle. he's sort of dropped a sledgehammer into his association with -- he's not pro-all america. he's pro this slice of the conservative american movement. >> yes, i mean, by the way, i'm half hungarian so i have a special interest in this, and just to do a little history. >> please. >> russia did invade hungary in 1956 when hungary was actually showing some signs of democratic liberalism. orban himself has talked for years about how appalling the russian invasion was, and it was only after the fall of berlin wall that hungary started modernizing and becoming more progressive. but he's taking it backward. i mean, according to freedom house, he's repressing the judiciary, he's repressing the rule of law, he's changing the constitution, he's passing

anti-lgbtq laws. i mean, it's just going in the wrong direction and as mark said, i mean, this is the direction that cpac seems to think is the right direction for america, an un-american, undemocratic direction. it really is kind of appalling. but let me add one irony. they're there, of course, but hungary is -- was traditionally a socialist country. they're in a country that has universal healthcare, universal payment for college education, all the things that the republican party, even the traditional republican party is against, so that's just another kind of sad irony of what they're doing there. >> director brennan, i want to ask you not what orban meant when he talked about rallying the troops because it is a turn of phrase that people use on campaigns, but how do you think it's heard? i mean, this is the wing, not just of our population but of the republican side of this country that, in polls, seems to think there is a place for political violence in america.

>> that is the worrisome aspect of this, nicole, but there's always been a far-right wing fringe in the united states and in other countries, and they slowly have crept up in influence in terms of their nativism, their xenophobia, their tribalism, and it seems like they've consumed cpac and what i find surprising is that it seems to have swallowed the republican party whole over the last several years, embedded certainly by trump but also by all those other republicans who are allowing that fringe to consume it. and so viktor orban now is trying to push out a clarion call, just like his fellow autocrats, the putins and others of the world, who are trying to rally the troops using these phrases of trying to preserve their foundations of their societies, defend christianity and going out against -- with anti-lgbtq comments and just trying to, again, bring together those on the far right in the united states and other places that this is really a time for

activity and activism. and so, therefore, i think the people here in the united states, when they see that cpac is being hosted in hungary, they're going to listen to mr. orban. they're going to listen to the things that he is taking right out of the autocrat's playbook that unfortunately has been too effective and too successful in these societies that are genuflecting at the altar of these autocrats, who as mark and rick said, are pretty much opposed to the democratic foundations and principles of our country. >> i want to read from a great series of pieces in "the new york times." the orbanization of america, how to capture a democracy. since coming to power in 2010, orban and fizez have steadily tightened their grip on the hungarian state. the independents of the country's judiciary has been eroded over orban east dozen consecutive years in power and though hungary's elections are free, it's hard to call them fair. that's in part because orban's

government used its overwhelming parliamentary powers to amend the country's constitution and rework how elections play out. you could take out orban and do trump and trump allies and the paragraph holds for this country, too, mark mckinnon. donald trump wasn't as successful in extinguishing mainstream outlets like "the new york times" and cnn and the "washington post," although he railed against them daily when he was allowed on twitter. i guess he's allowed again. but this is his dream for an ecosystem dominated by outlets loyal to him. he's stacked the supreme court, especially with that last nomination for rbg's seat, and while our elections are still free, if all of his nominees and candidates for secretaries of state are successful, it will be hard to call ours fair as well. how did we get here? >> that's what's so chilling about orban's statement about rallying the troops for 2024. he's providing a playbook for

america, an autocratic playbook, and that is the sort of thing that republicans are going to parrot, and the irony is that, at the base of this is this fear that they're spreading about others changing our way of lives, coming into -- crossing our borders and polluting the system and, as tucker would say, polluting your vote, white americans. and it's -- which is so ironic because it's so contrary to the way our country was founded through immigrants, of course, and my question is, what are republicans so afraid of about immigrants? i mean, we're never going to allow illegal immigrants to vote so they're going to be legal, right? so, why don't republicans embrace the idea and say, listen, we have policies that are terrific for non-white americans and people coming to our country. they're coming here because they love our way of life, and we have a blueprint, not just for

white evangelical christians but for anybody who comes. that was sort of ronald reagan's message, and he and many -- and like i said, our old bosses are turning over today. >> and i mean, ronald reagan's legacy was to enact amnesty, the thing that the republicans rail against, and many of them do cast themselves in his shadow. it is -- if it wasn't so disturbing, it would be laughable for its hypocrisy. thank you so much for spending time with us on this. when we come back, ahead of the united states supreme court's expected dismantling of roe v. wade, a deep red state is poised to ban virtually all abortions starting before a woman even knows she's pregnant. that story's next. a woman even knows she's pregnant that story's next.

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it's outrageous and it's just the latest in a series of extreme laws around the country. several of the medical professionals joining us today are seeing the impact of these laws that are designed to punish and control women. >> that was vice president kamala harris this afternoon in a virtual meeting with abortion providers addressing the news out of oklahoma today. final approval there for what would be the nation's strictest abortion law. the measure would prohibit nearly all abortions starting at fertilization. from the "new york times," quote, the bill is modeled on

one that took effect in texas in september, which has relied on civilian instead of criminal enforcement to work around court challenges, but it goes further than the texas law, which bans abortions after about six weeks of pregnancy. the bill subjects abortion providers and anyone who aids or abets an abortion to civil suits from private individuals. it would take effect immediately upon signature by governor kevin stitt, a republican who has pledged to make his state the most anti-abortion in the nation. joining our conversation, member of the editorial board, rick stengel is also here. this is who we are now. this is where we're heading. the supreme court overturns roe, the idea that it will stop pregnancies from rape, pregnancies from incest, pregnancies from accidental or

unprotected sex is wrong, so where are we heading, mara? >> well, it's terrifying, as a woman, as a citizen, it's terrifying. this is going to create a chilling effect. again, this is not going to stop abortion so what's going to happen instead is that as a country, we are going to allow the prosecution of the not women themselves, and i do believe that's ultimately where this appears to be heading and quickly, certainly people who provide critical healthcare to them to which they are entitled, we are entitled, as human beings. abortion is healthcare. and i just want to say, you know, i think this law in particular is disturbing because it bears no impact on how life is actually made and how a woman carries a pregnancy. as you pointed out, nicole, this is banning abortion before a woman even knows that she is

pregnant, and i think it just really says a lot about how the interest here is political, which is a race to the bottom of -- a race to be as punitive as possible, to win as many points as possible with a radical and minority in this country that does not support a woman's right to choose in even extreme circumstances. rather than actually talking about life and how to support children who are here, how to support women whose lives matter, by the way. your life doesn't stop mattering simply because you're not a fetus. and i think it is offensive, frankly, and it is -- it's really concerning because these laws are becoming more punitive and less tethered to science and the rights of half of the american population. >> mara, 64% of all americans in the latest poll that we saw believe that roe vs. wade should

not be overturned. upwards of 76%, 77% of americans believe in the exceptions for rape and incest. and upwards of 83% to 85% of americans believe in the exceptions in the case of the life of the mother. the statewide bans that are being passed and that all go into effect when roe is overturned are so far out of the mainstream. do you believe there will be a political consequence for them? >> i do. but i think we have to recognize, in this moment, that unfortunately, abortion, i think, is a really perfect example of just how far our politics in america have become a minoritytarian exercise so it's not necessarily about what a majority of americans support but what a small minority of americans who is in control of a

republican party right now that is becoming increasingly radical and uninterested or uninvested in democracy and more interested in power wants. and so, i think that's what we're seeing and we're seeing that from supreme court to, you know, just these state legislatures. and i think that is -- that is, again, why it is really frustrating to americans across the country who are in the majority, who do support these rights, because them voting isn't going to, in and of itself, fix this problem. we have a structural problem in our politics that is advantaging, you know, in this case, an extreme minority movement in the united states. >> what do you think the consequences will be in terms of the stature of the court when it puts -- when it overturns roe, which has 64% support from all americans, not a lot of 64%

issues in the country anymore. but when it facilitates -- and the only reason we'll have bans like the oklahoma ban is because of the united states supreme court, and they're going to enact things that have -- opposed by 83% of all americans. i think some polls show 90% of americans show access to an abortion if the life of the mother is endangered. that's not where we're heading. we're heading to policies that 90% of americans oppose. >> yes, i'm going to get to the larger supreme court point in a second. i just want to make one point about this oklahoma law that's so disturbing in addition to all the things mara said. it's this enshrinement of vigilante justice that the texas law originally proposed. >> that the supreme court green lit when they refused to break down the ban. >> do i want to live in a state or country where even the legislature that passes the law doesn't have the conviction to execute it and say, hey, you citizens can go and sue people. >> or when the supreme court permits vigilante states to do that yeah. so, that's just a scary, scary prospect. but to your question about the

larger supreme court, i mean, there's that old saying. the supreme court justices read the newspapers. well, maybe these new trump appointees don't read the newspapers. >> john roberts does. >> john roberts does, but the other new ones don't, because they are going not only against precedent, which they swore to uphold. >> 50 years. >> they're going against the gut feeling of the american public, and you asked, what does that do to the institution? well, it undermines the institution where the institution doesn't represent what americans actually believe and what americans care about. that's a dangerous thing. and so, i think it's the wrong direction, legally. it's the wrong direction, morally. and it's the wrong direction, politically. >> let me ask you really quick, what about a vigilante law on the other side? i mean, obviously, if the supreme court has green lit vigilanteism, why doesn't the left come out with laws about illegal guns? >> well, that's a good question. and when you're dealing with guns, you're really dealing -- >> 85%.

85% of americans would like to see more gun safety. >> but what would that be? >> i don't know. it just seems if the right gets away with things that are, you know, 65% of the country opposes and 85% in the case of these statewide bans. >> the thing i wouldn't want is people taking guns away from other people. >> but illegal guns or ghost guns. >> somebody who has illegally sold guns, things like that, that seems to me possible. reasonable. >> all right, to be continued. mara gay, thank you for being part of our coverage. there's another sign that vice president's invasion of ukraine is not going well at all. we have a live report on the other side of a quick break. we e other side of a quick break.

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try for free today at aura.com what was that password anyway? ew. today joe biden welcome leaders of sweden and finland after he showed strong support for the countries in their bid to join nato following russia's continued war in ukraine. all 30 nato countries need to approve a new member. the focus will now shift to turkey who voiced concerns about expanding the nato alliance. national security adviser jake sullivan says he's confident that their concerns can be addressed. diplomacy comes as diplomacy comes as they look for the end

of the war in ukraine. cal perry tell me how the twin stories are dominating anything. what is the reaction in ukraine about the stories? >> the feeling first on the nato situation is turkey is eventually going to come along. they are taking this moment to have a conversation about kurdish issues which is an internal issue in turkey. they are talking to sweden about how they have refugees they are. again, this is sort of internal turkey politics. the aid package is usually impressive. $40 billion. if you take out a state department project certain money, this is a larger budget to ukraine then the u.s. gives to them every year.

now that the package is through, what you're going to see is more video from the region like you are saying now. heavy u.s. artillery being used on russian positions. these howitzer artillery pieces. it is worth reminding our viewers, that in the last 24 hours, 21 people were killed and 51 were wounded by russian shelling. russia is escalating and wind it down at other packages. >> we talked a lot, i wonder how president zelensky uses the size of the aid package but what he can do to turn the tide of the war. and to help them with more decisive package.

this is something to show the rest of the world. he will take the money and he will show it to the rest of the world. here is what america is willing to do. what are you willing to do. the other thing he does that i think is expertly presented. as he will take the military gave them he will say here is where we are making losses. here is where we need the money and here is where we are not able to negotiate a cease-fire. how do you negotiate a cease- fire when you have ukrainian troops making their way into the russian border and shelling into russia. that is a great desire to exact revenge on russians for the death and destruction and again he has to balance the senate is harder to balance when you have any billion dollars of aid headed your way. >> what is the move about this stage in the war. people accepting it as the new normal?

>> i think people are caught where kyiv is a normally functioning fairly. but children are outside of the country. it is jarring to see where the kids are out and then you have a depression set in. the war in the east is going to continue. in that it is hard to attract attention to that. it is what i try to read the casualty reports every day. 21 day today. but it is hard to make the world care about a war that has been going on for eight years. that is one of the challenges they are dealing with. one of the challenges the public is dealing with. >> we are so fortunate to have you. and rick stangl thank you. we are going to figure out how to get you to the senate floor. a quick rake for us we will be right back. be right back.

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thank you so much for letting us into your home. we are grateful. the beach with trent to start right now. welcome to the beat everyone we begin with the latest earthquakes that continue to come out of the primaries we've been covering. republicans in pennsylvania are now upset with trump. both are still being counted. the trump invoiced tv dr. oz is still neck and neck with mccormick in that senate primary race. the far right election and i mastriano is now the candidate governor. the republican chair said it is the most cockamamie election we've ever seen in our lives. also bad news hitting trump in georgia.