>> that's all for this edition of dateline. i'm craig melvin. thank you for watching. welcome to the show. i'm zerlina maxwell. the january six committee is asking to talk to georgia republican congressman barry loudermilk about a tour of the capital complex, a day before the insurrection. ukraine's president says russia has fully destroyed the country's eastern donbas region, turning it into, quote, hell. more on these stories later this hour. we begin with oklahoma. the state that is now passed the most extreme abortion ban

outlawing -- the bill borrows a page from texas, by putting enforcement in the page of individuals who can sue anyone who helps a person get an abortion. oklahoma is just the latest state to pass an abortion ban, ahead of the supreme court ruling that could strike down roe v. wade. the bands are getting more and more extreme. justifications by antiabortion activists are getting more unhinged. this leader open anti abortion group, who republican honors of congress called as an expert witness to testify under oath at a hearing this week. take a look. >> humans persons, from the earliest days poison in the womb and dismembered, torn, limb from limb. bodies thrown in medical waste bins, and in places like washington, d.c.. burned to power the lights of the city's homes and streets. >> she was serious.

she said all that with a straight face. is this your queen? really? she said electricity in d.c. is powered by burning fetuses. she didn't present any evidence, because it's a completely outlandish not true. that is the voice of the anti-abortion movement, or at least one of them. here are some of the mainstream republican voters in georgia talking about the issue of abortion in a recent focus group, conducted by msnbc's, elise jordan. >> if our governor, our call in the legislature under -- and hasn't abandoned portions in georgia. >> does that make you more likely to support david perdue for governor, the primary? >> no. >> less. >> why does it make you less likely? >> my body, my choice. not the governments. >> marty, you're very pro-life, so why does it make you less likely? >> women get this much of a voice on topic, mentioned have this much of a voice on the

topic. reasonable limits makes sense. viable, outside the womb, at 20 weeks, you have to answer to the guy upstairs it happens after that. >> buffy works of california. first of all, thanks for joining us. >> thank you very much for having me. excited to be with you. >> assemblywoman, i'd like to start with getting your reaction to oklahoma's extreme abortion ban. its districts in america, and the governor is expected to sign it. >> simply, put is horrific. i think it shows an utter lack of respect and dignity for people, in terms of their ability to make their own decisions about if, when and how they want to have a child. it's a scary turnover single across this country. that's why in california, we're standing up and saying, we are reproductive freedom stage for all. >> one of the things, in this particular bill, that i found

interesting, that's different from other abortion bans that we've seen -- but only if the rape or incest was reported to the police. lay out some of the problems with that requirement, specifically. >> so many people don't have faith in the criminal justice system. they don't have faith in law enforcement, so there is a serious problem of under reporting of rape and incest. that argument is very. floyd who receives were extremely will bushy bad bills. assuming roe v. wade overturns, which i think that's the same assumption, we're gonna have about half of our country who is very limited, restricted or no access to safe, illegal abortions. it's scary times for the people living in the state, especially for low income. we know this will disproportionately impact people of color, as do many of our unfair laws and systems in this nation. that's why it's important that we instate --

and their ability to make choices, stand up to the right thing, and make sure we're prepared to accept those that need help. >> in terms of what your state of california is doing, you mentioned the states that believe in protecting bodily autonomy should do the most they can to protect those rights. how are you going about doing that, in terms of being a refuge for those women and people who could get pregnant from other states, where these bands are in place? >> but we anticipate to happen is when roe v. wade is overturned, we believe there will be a least 1.4 million people who will seek here in california. that's where we're preparing, for years to be ready for that. that's on the legal front, the state of legal -- so, there's gonna be a ballot measure on the ballot this year that we believe will pass pretty candidly, because we believe these are california values. the second point, which is really important, access.

we have some legislation. there are 13 bills going to the legislature. on the lead author on one of those bills. they range from the state creating a fund -- to pay for travel, lodging and logistical support for people when we come to california. we're also looking to ensure that our nurse practitioners with specific training -- who are doubly blower clinics will be a capacity, that could be an issue. world to be sure that we're -- we know that the racial inequities that exist are profound, particularly for women, particularly for pregnant women. making sure that folks look like you when you go to receive care -- those are some of the things we're doing. we're trying to buttress up our infrastructure, in the event, when this does happen, and i know other states follow suit, but we want to make sure that folks know that our values -- and then we have the ability to

make decisions on our own. thank you so much for starting us off today. please a safe. great to see you. coming up, you cannot another name to the list of congress people who are alleged to have taken insurrectionists on a tour of the united states capitol. we'll tell you who next. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. clean ingredients... in a buttery brioche roll. made fresh, to leave you... speechless. panera's new chef's chicken sandwiches. $1 delivery fee on our app. ♪("i've been everywhere" by johnny cash) ♪ ♪i've traveled every road in this here land!♪ ♪i've been everywhere, man.♪ ♪i've been everywhere, man.♪ ♪of travel i've had my share, man.♪ ♪i've been everywhere.♪ ♪♪ (driver) conventional thinking would say verizon has the largest and fastest 5g network.en everywhere.♪ but, they don't. they only cover select cities with 5g. and with coverage of over 96% of interstate highway miles, they've got us covered.

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reconnaissance for the next day. those members of congress that inside of this violent crowd. those members of congress that attempted to help our president, undermine our democracy. i'm going to see that they're held accountable, and if necessary, ensure that they don't serve in congress. >> those democratic congressman woman of new jersey speaking days after the january 6th insurrection. she's a former u.s. attorney navy pilot. her comments, at the time, alleging that some members of congress -- got a lot of attention. lately, we haven't heard about these alleged tours yesterday, the house select committee on january 6th match to meet with republican congressman from georgia named barry loudermilk -- tour that you live through the capitol complex on january the 5th, 2021. loudermilk's said previously that no republican member of

congress little constants tour. -- joining us now, juanita tolliver -- who are both political analyst for msnbc. juanita, also with you. how significant do you think it is that the committee is now -- though buddy of congress gave way to the capitol? >> i think it's critical -- they said they saw the footage. they said they saw the evidence that shows him giving this tour. for loudermilk to double down on that lie shows how willing that republicans are to live through their teeth. loudermilk also -- days after january 6th went on to file an ethics complaint against her and other democrats, and say that he and other republicans -- washer -- i feel like the senate committee is saying, we've caught you an ally, we've seen the evidence, we've seen the

footage, and now we're going to hold you accountable. i think this is a great runway for them leading into the public hearings, where we know they're going to show the receipts. they're going to lay out the clear evidence and make their case because it's important that we remember, they're not only making there -- but holding these members countable, with all so to the doj. with this type of evidence, i wouldn't be surprised if there are referrals of the doj going by on trump. some of these other sitting republicans who held ahead -- >> susan, when this evidence first came out, when mike-y cheryl for said this, people noticed. it broke through some of the other news that was gone of the time, related to the insurrection, because we're still processing of a video from the particulate -- >> to percolate up, in terms of arrest. when she said that, everybody took notice. do you think people -- present this public hearing

that there are members of congress, republican members, that did tours the day before the attack on that building? it's possible. it depends on the members of congress and their district. it is shocking. let's just add to the fact that not only has the slope committee and give that the footage of this, but they probably also have people that they interviewed and offered testimony. they have gotten the select committee testimony of upwards of 800 people. there are staff members, other witnesses, there may be those trying to make a deal who did break into the capitol. this is a very interesting time for these members of congress. they probably do not want to go under oath. they will fight with the word reconnaissance. at the end of the day, what was interesting about nikki cheryl 's comments, congressman cheryl, it was soon after and implied a

coordinated attack. now we are seeing the receipts of that coordinated attack who play for what? we literally have receipts. who organized? what we are going to be able to get a clear picture which will be more jarring when it is presented as not just speculation or leaked to the press, but in cold hard facts. >> juanita, do you think the susan's point, if they put the pieces together of things that have been trickling out for many months, that the american people would swing in favor of holding these republicans accountable for any alleged participation in the attack? could a swing in public opinion happen if the evidence is presented will not by the democrats? >> i think the energy and attention is right for the public to engage with this. remember, polls show that people want to know and want to

find out the truth in who was involved, and who knew what when. it's going to come down to how the select committee presents it. as susan was saying, making a clear timeline, running people through moment by moment of what was happening, not only in the capital, but in the white house where in those thousands of interviews, they did interview deputy and aides. they witnessed the real live trump movement and meadow movement. who was on the phone with him? all of this is compiled an attractive way and a way that plays out like a drama. i wrote recently, they need to lay it out like the real housewives would. present the drama, bring the receipts, map it out. that energy, that drama, it's going to capture the nations attention. again, selling this to the nation it's about the accountability that we know that voters are going to take with them to the booth in november. they are selling this to the department of justice, when they want to make any referrals for prosecution, for trump, meadows, and others, that is

the other audience that they are trying to satisfy. >> so what you are saying is they need a screenwriter and some producers for the real housewives. it benefits from the fact that it is scripted and heavily produced. i'm just saying! susan, one of the things i've thought about this week is how the messaging in this particular moment is related to the january six committee hearings. how does this factor into the larger message going into the elections, where most americans are thinking of gas prices, inflation, baby formula shortages? how does the january 6th peace fit into all the other things that people are thinking about day-to-day in terms of how democrats put messages forward around those issues? >> that's an interesting question, zerlina. i don't think that instead of focusing about the validity of the 2020 election and trying to overturn it, the democrats should focus on the attack on

democracy. it echoes what is happening in the ukraine. their country was attacked, our democracy was attacked. the way we do business. no one should be able to disrupt our government and seek out a comb. if you use that messaging, it can help. when it comes to the 2022 elections, the economy is very on everyone's mind. they cannot lose track of that no matter how interesting or salacious the facts are that come out of this select committee. >> one of the last questions i have in the last minute here, juanita, is do you think it is the message that is going to matter in the midterms or is it just be organizing and the turnout? is the message because so many of these issues are excess and show that it does not matter -- >> i think yes.

the message is going to be part of what's mobilizes and motivate voters to turn out. in addition to what susan said about this message, it should include future threats to come in 2024. the other factors that democrats will deal with in these midterms, how can they organize the voter suppression that is taking place across the country and extension to the 2020 loss. all of that is going to play a factor in november. >> susan del prosy and juanita, always good to have you to chat politics with my favorite folks. thank you again. please stay safe. coming up, russia fighting ukraine. russian forces are laying the groundwork to annex parts of the country. we will be right back. be right back. i am robert strickler. i've been involved in communications in the media for 45 years. i've been taking prevagen on a regular basis for at least eight years. for me, the greatest benefit over the years has been that prevagen seems to help me recall things

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so i called the barnes firm. ukraine's president says that i'm rich barnes. youour cidedentase e woh than insurance offered? call the barnes firm now to find out. yoyou ght t beurprpris russia has fully destroyed the eastern donbas region, describing it as hell. the russian forces have only made incremental gains in the region. the intensified missile strikes have intensified in days. one russian attack in luhansk killed 12 civilians and injured more. fresh off their victory in mariupol, the new york times reports that russia is laying the groundwork to annex large areas of the region. russian forces have moved into introduced the rubble and impose new school curriculums. joining me to break this down

is msnbc analyst ben. let us understand what's happening in the donbas region. russia was making little progress, but is that still the case? >> if you rewind just three months, the map has changed dynamically. what you notice right away is light blue. this is ukrainian forces making counterattacks and advancing. i will start in the east. here is the donbas region. it is two provinces of luhansk and donetsk. remember, russia's already had subpoenas forces backing. here the areas in red, they already owned or occupied to a certain degree. what we have seen over the last few weeks, and particularly last week, ukrainian military conducted a counterfeit measure east of kharkiv. they took back some of this ground. because if they have been able to do that, it has allowed them to push artillery out of the region. it is threatening this line of communication and logistics from belgorod, the russian

military base, down to fcm. it is a stalled access. the original plan of the russians was to come here into donetsk and tried to loop to join those forces with is him. then they would have cut off this ukrainian military. it did not happen. we are seeing a much more limited battle going on here in the eastern part of ukraine of the donbas region. the russians, and started making large advances, this is where they struggle to make a small advances using smaller forces trying to encircle smaller elements of the ukrainian military. while they occasionally make a small advances, it is not going to be enough to repel the ukrainian military. they are advancing as quickly as possible here. they reinforced these lines where they have defenses. now they have artillery moving in, they have u.s. equipment moving in. as time goes on, the russians have not as much time to occupy the donbas while ukraine is getting stronger. it speaks to the bigger picture which is how does this end? i think this is what we are all trying to figure out.

here in the southern part, mariupol, this is where the azov steel plant is. it has been taken over at this point. they control the entire city. this has created a land bridge from crimea to croissants and over. just in the start of the broadcast, there are two areas here that are called obelisks. they are regions. one is appreciate one is kherson. what's the re-russians are trying to do is make them all part of russia. like you said, they're using the ruble, issuing task forces, and issuing -- they are aligned with the russian population. here, you see the ukrainians are fighting back. they are doing counterfeit. in this area right around here, in mariupol, you have ukrainians rising up into the rear areas. the question overtime will be, can russia achieve what putin started to do which is take a band here and make this part of greater russia? >> in terms of our role in

providing military aid, they passed 40 billion dollars in more military and humanitarian aid on thursday. that is triple the action that we passed in march. as you are seeing on the ground and what we laid out, understand why congress felt they needed to increase discover the packages dramatically? is this because, as you laid it out, it would help in this moment and stop some of russia's progress that they are making in the region? >> two pieces. one, it allows, particularly in the eastern area, for ukrainians to push and have a fighting chance against one's large armor formations coming in from russia. separately, this resupply, i think we forget that things like fuel, fuel trucks, humanitarian aid, food, it is not been getting to this eastern region for three months now. the bigger picture that i think that everyone should be worrying about is this blockade. here, the russian navy in this area, we have heard about snake

aisle, they are creating a blockade. it does not allow shape -- ships to resupply and move in or out of odessa. for the ukrainian people, this means it has to come through a land. a lot of this aid package is looking forward to what's going to happen this summer. how does a food, fuel, ammunition, move not only to the military but to the ukrainian people that are blockaded in odessa? >> helpful analysis. thank you for being here. please stay safe. coming up, pieces of monkeypox have been detected in europe and the united states. what is it? should we be worried? we will be right back. we will be right back. your queries be known. uh, how come we don't call ourselves bikers anymore? i mean, "riders" is cool, but "bikers"...is really cool. -seriously? -denied. can we go back to meeting at the rec center? the commute here is brutal. denied. how do we feel about getting a quote to see if we can save with america's number one motorcycle insurer? should flo stop asking the same question every time? -approved! -[ altered voice ] denied!

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another virus outbreaks in parts of europe, australia, and right here in the united states. it's monkeypox. a rare viral disease that's in the same family as smallpox. the virus typically starts with flu like symptoms, and patients may develop -- a it's also causing concern --

another distinguishing feature of the virus, these fluid filled biblicist or is that may appear on the hands of folks and other parts of the body as well. at least 85 cases of monkeypox have been reported in ten countries. how worried should we be? -- joining me now is actually an expert on monkeypox, i learned, because the virus became so they were talking about. an epidemiologist at ucla. what's monkeypox? tell us more. what is known about monkeypox, in terms of the history of the virus and how is it spread? >> zerlina, thanks for having me. before i started working on covid, i was working on monkeypox. i've been working on monkeypox for 20 years in, the democratic republic of congo. monkeypox is a pox virus, a cousin of smallpox, which was one of the most terrible

infectious diseases known to man. one of the greatest achievements of history, was the eradication of smallpox. one smallpox eradicated, all of a sudden, it left the door open for other viruses to fill that niche. we no longer had circulating, and we no longer had a vaccine -- monkeypox is less severe than smallpox. there are two main forms of it. one, the central african -- which circulates to places like drc, where i work. and then the west african played, which is milder, circulates in west africa, and his associates did with the current outbreaks are seeing. >> okay. how worried should we be then? >> i think this is not a cause for mass concern. this is an important virus. it's important that we're identifying these cases. it's important that we follow

the data and that we understand the scope of this widespread disease that we're seeing very unexpectedly, and that we learned or who putin give you dixie to be worried. this is not transmissible, as we know, it in the same way that something like covid is. it requires, as we know, a closer, or more prolonged contacts. it's a very different kind of virus. something to be thinking about, if you've had a rash or travel. it's of the way we could see about, you can go to doctor, but i would say this is not something that the general public should be concerned about at this point. >> as you said, there is a visible symptom, so -- unlike covid, the rash is an indication that you need to

call your doctor or isolate, or both. now in terms of this particular moment, one of the jokes then it had the whole pandemic, of covid gave you blisters or face lesions, or some sort of outward symptom, that, in our vein society, more people would've complied with mask mandates instated home, if covid looked like these photographs of monkeypox. in terms of the public's willingness to, one, not freak out, to, listen to the advice from folks like you, how should we be thinking about monkeypox, in comparison to covid? we're surging right now in covid cases. >> what i would say is, you know, things people need to worry about -- if the general public should be concerned about covid right now,

because we're seeing, as you mentioned, a surge. we're seeing very large numbers of cases being reported, and that's in addition to the cases not being reported. and, hospitalizations are start to creep up again. what we're seeing with monkeypox are isolated clusters of cases. they are likely associated with either travel to west africa, her baby in clusters of gay men, bisexual men, that may have had contact and were trying to understand what may have driven this. we're not seeing thousands of cases here, we're seeing clusters of cases that need to be investigated. we need more information. will, at that point, be able to say more about it. >> don't everybody go freaking out about monkeypox!

especially if you are african of a covid! covid, folks on covid. that's a big problem. let the ap deem ecologist help us walk through how concerned we should be about monkeypox. doctor, thank you so much for being here. please stay safe. coming up, the new york attorney generals office wants accountability for the mass shooting at buffalo from social media companies. we'll look at the platforms are investigated and why. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. what happens when performance... meets power? you try crazy things... ...because you're crazy... ...and you like it. you get bigger...

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is launching an investigation into multiple tech platforms, including twitch, discord and 4chan. in a statement, attorney general letitia james said, the terror attack in buffalo is once again revealed the depths in danger of the online forums that spread and promote hate. the that is, bone-chilling unfathomable to see someone post detailed plans of an attack and stream it for the world to see, without any consequences. joining me now is the president of color of, change shot robinson.

richard, you tweeted a twitch took down the live stream of the buffalo shooting within two minutes, but it still posted to the platforms like facebook. why is it so important, you think, to put pressure on these tech companies to take action against this type of livestreamed violence? >> well, thank you for having me, zerlina. this is a really complicated issue. for the viewers who are probably thinking, why don't facebook, which, why don't these companies do more? right now, there is a business model problem with how these companies are designed. there are a set of immunity is that they have around the content that's posted. some of those communities are actually good. they shouldn't be held liable for something i post on facebook, but there are all sorts of ways he's business with his work that both incentifies -- and allow these platforms to work together in ways that are actually moving hate content --

and not having this proper protections on the back end. we, for a long time, have been running campaigns against many of these platforms. even over the last year, we've been pushing twitch around some of the challenges on their platform, particularly in the way that black content creators on twitter being targeted and attacked, having their accounts rated. all of that is due to how to these business models work. the profit systems. as long as it continues to be profitable, and there's no consequence, we're gonna see this. to answer that question, at the end, yes, we have to put pressure on these platforms, but the place we have to put pressure on is to our lawmakers. we should not have to go through a billion dollar, trillion dollar tech companies and asked to protect our civil rights. there should be rules of the

road and legislation in policies and infrastructure in place told these companies accountable. the reason why are our cars are safe, and risky bills work is not because of the benevolence of the auto industry, it's because we have infrastructure and consequences when it doesn't actually meet the standard. right now, there are not the proper rules of the road for silicon valley, so the technology that could bring us into the future is dragging us into the past. >> i think a lot about corporate responsibility, in a moment like this, we've talked previously about corporations putting out statements in support of voting rights, in the wake of voting restrictions passing in the states, after the 2020 election. what's the corporate -- hate speech? these companies can condemn hate speech but it did not start with social media platforms. the question is, it is not enough to condemn it if your business model incentivize it,

profits from it. if you click on a white nationalist like richard spencer and then you are served other white nationalists to follow, if an algorithm of a platform is not transparent but then researchers, of whistleblowers, tell us so much that we need to know, when we find out that all sorts of systems have been put into place. we see contents that makes us angry. it mixes attack one another more than we see content from our friends and family. these are business choices that the company is making. incentive structure that has to be dealt with. the lack of transparency from a silicon valley, the way in which algorithms that can be put on the market and there is no rules, and all the ways in which there is immunity at the end, create this hostile climate that we have to deal with. imagine if we went to the supermarket and there was a meat on the soft shelf that was safe and others that was not

safe. the meat company says, we want to give you consumer choice. you pick what works. we would say that this is not actually appropriate. to the extent, yes, there is a lot of speech that happens on these platforms, but there is a lot in the algorithm, the amplification, and the business models. it is not about speech. it is about how these companies profit and make money. as long as hate speech, as long as a targeted attacks and racism, misogyny, attacks that are violent, are profitable, and the company's leverage this to make more money, we will seek thoughts and prayers, statements that they want to do better. believe me, i've been in the room with these folks. when i tell you that they want to do better and that they are working hard, sometimes we even walked out of the room and they said that they were going to do new things, they are going to make this work, and i can remember we have donald trump

posted looters and shooters post. facebook, instead of taking it down because it violated the four corners of the rules that we had agreed to, mark zuckerberg called donald trump and has a conversation with him about it. that means that it comes down to this idea. self regulated companies are regulated companies. we cannot trust these companies to self regulate. this is why we need rules of the road. we do not need a thoughts and prayers from the platform. we do not need thoughts and prayers from our political leaders. what we need is action from our political leaders and accountability on platforms. >> always good to talk to you, rashad, it is an important topic. i think all of us use these platforms and see some of this content. we want to see more done to clean it up, frankly. thank you for being here.

coming up, dying of whiteness, i will talk to the psychologist who says that some people adopt political views that might hurt them in the long run. we will be right back. we will be right back. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ life... doesn't stop for diabetes. be ready for every moment, with glucerna. it's the number one doctor recommended brand that is scientifically designed to help manage your blood sugar. live every moment. glucerna. live every moment. as a main street bank, pnc has helped over 7 million kids develop their passion for learning through our grow up great initiative.

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we find ourselves in the same place, asking ourselves the same question, why do we have problems with guns in america? answering this question gets more complicated when you consider race. according to a few research center survey, only 45% of white who are calling for stricter gun laws even though they have the highest suicide rate. dying of whiteness, eyelets how american notions of whiteness encourages people to adopt views that could hurt them quote, maintaining and imagine place atop a hierarchy. doctor joins me now. thank you so much for being here. it is great to see you. can you hear me? >> yes i can, it's great to see you also. >> great, first question is, what is it about your research

and talking to why people in missouri, in the south, and other parts of the country, as to why they land on this side of the political debate where they do not want regulation of guns? >> they do not want regulations of gun. they have a long history in the united states. they have been held up as a symbol of white privilege. to use this word literally. for centuries, who got to carry a gun in public? white americans. this is true from precolonial america on through now and many parts of the country. it comes to the way is how we interpret it. the whole part is -- the whole book is not about guns. i walked around and asked people, what is you're gonna mean to you? i was doing research in the most southern part of missouri. it was very white, very pro gun country area, i say that i gangbangers my come into my room, a carjacker might get me. they were almost entirely white.

the area -- the idea of carrying a gun as a mark of whiteness against a racial other or the threat of another is something profound. that was one small part of research. tapping into this long history of why many americans feel like they need to carry guns, and the particular narratives that are play to by the nra and the politicians that tell them that they need to have guns against a racial threat, when i found in other research, the biggest art was having a gun in your home, in terms of gun suicide and partner violence or other things like that. >> one of the things i want to ask you specifically is a question i have been thinking about all week long. this is, why supra white supremacy and someone who has a white nationalist ideology behaves violently as an expression of this ideology? what i am saying is, you can hate anything, but why not just

never interact with black people or move out of the community where you would see black people? why go out and kill black people? why do you think racism makes people act out violently? i think that is a question that we often skip over. >> that is a great question! let me just be clear, i do not study extremism. i study every day race. this has some answers for this question. let me be clear, i have not interviewed this mass shooter. i have not seen the police report or the sack report. i can say that if it mirrors anything in terms of the larger ideology, it is not just about replacement theory. that is what we are talking about here. my research study started in 2012, 2013. white people in tennessee, in rural tennessee, where i was doing my research, was told that you have to reject obamacare because mexicans are coming across the border and black you are coming and they're taking your resources. they are taking your health care. when i saw on the ground was people who needed health care.

white american said i'm not signing up for that because someone might come and take my resources. it was true for a lot of the gun stuff. this is as i was mentioning. this was true for education. if people were to being told that black you are coming and that they are taking resources for their own schools and your people and kids are suffering. people are like i'm not paying for public school anymore. i think this is an every day turn beat for the past decade. it really terrifies people. it is saying, people are coming for your resources. the irony is, these people have a few resources, not because minoritized people are coming, but because the politicians that they support are taking these resources and give them to refuelling corporations and forms of tax cuts. there has been this escalating fear about not having enough, austerity, resources, that plays into a lot of peoples anxiety in the everyday world. not that the mass shooter did that, but reading has made a

manifesto. this is a pornographic lee extreme a version of some of the every day anxieties and concerns that i have heard about. people are saying, i'm not signing up for that because a lot of people are taking that away from me. >> one of the other things that i wanted to ask you is back when there was the debate over obamacare, which is when your book and the research it is talking about it, there were a lot of white people who did not want to use obamacare because they felt like it was a program that was also helping black and brown people. medicaid expansion as one of those places where people will die if medicaid is not expended in many states. we lived through covid. i thought medicaid would be the moment where some of these folks change their views. now that i lived through covid, i know this is not true. have you thought about how these two debates parallel each other?

i thought that is where. what more than a pandemic to highlight our shared humanity? i would say that the argument of the book is that, in part, we should think hard about putting a biomedical or public health frame around common health problems. even though it is true, we are equally at risk from covid, but the ideology is not about community public health. it is about power. it is about power for my tribe, my group, my race. i was arguing in the book, before the pandemic, i was watching people give up their own health care because they did not want to participate in a system that might help people that they saw as racial others. it is not because they were literally dying of doing that, but the system they were supporting, that they felt needed support, was giving them power. it is a tension between a public health frame and a power frame. it has been highlighted in the pandemic. >> such important work and an

important conversation. it is important to have you dr. jonathan. thank you for being here today. please stay safe. that does it for me. i am certainly not. you can find me on monday through friday streaming on peacock on the msnbc hub. be sure to follow us on facebook, twitter, or, tiktok, and youtube. more news just coming up here on msnbc. >> this is the katie fang show live from a new york city. are we have a lot of news to cover and lots of questions to answer. let's get started. president biden is in asia. he pledges that democracy around the world will stand firm against authoritarian's. my question is, how can he hoped to bring the world democracy when ours at home is so tenuous. i will ask a former official for the state department. plus, a new report claiming that supreme court justices life wife was more involved in overturning the election than