u.s. military would get involved if china invaded tie wa if china invaded tiwantaiwan. the white house was quick to clarify, and china was quick to respond. plus, the line in the sand when it comes to a cease-fire. what a top leader to president zelenskyy said. plus, the crisis at home, baby formula. military planes carrying shipments from europe arrived in the u.s. yesterday. we'll tell you where it's headed and just how far it'll go in relieving the shortage. the answer, the short answer, not enough. the latest from pennsylvania in a republican senate race still close to call. could the outcome hinge on a court case from last year? also, tomorrow's primary race in georgia. mike pence visits the state today to campaign for incumbent

brian kemp in his race against trump-backed david perdue. trump versus pence. we'll also play more from elise jordan's eye-opening focus groups that she does with voters out of georgia. they're absolutely fascinating and give you a real sense of the state of play. with us, we have president on the council of foreign relations, richard haass, who has golf reporting for us this morning. very excited. we'll give him another chance. don't know how -- don't screw it up. this is your last chance. >> thank you for the support. >> former aid to the george w. bush white house and state departments, elise jordan. analyst and the host of "way too early," jonathan lemire. white house bureau chief at "politico. and also host of "the circus," affairs analyst john heilemann. good to have you with us all

this morning. president biden today said the u.s. military will get involved militarily if china invades its island neighbor. this is how the president answered a reporter's question this morning at a joint news conference in tokyo, with japan's new prime minister. >> you didn't want to get involved in the ukraine conflict militarily for obvious reasons. are you willing to get involved militarily to defend taiwan if it comes to that? >> yes. >> you are? >> that's the commitment we made. >> shortly after that news conference, the white house seemingly tried to clarify president biden's remarks, writing in a statement, quote, the president reiterated our commitment to peace and stability across the taiwan strait. and to provide taiwan with the military means to defend itself. a clarification there, joe, from the white house. >> i guess so. i mean, i suppose people will be making a big deal out of this today.

but, richard haass, we're involved militarily in ukraine. our troops aren't in ukraine. he didn't say we were going into ukraine. i think it was the right answer. we've had strategic ambiguity with china for years. it's done us, of late, very little good. so i -- the fact that he didn't hesitate, the same way donald trump hesitated for months when asked whether we would honor our nato commitments, i think a good thing. i think the white house going back in saying, "well, our troops wouldn't go in," well, again, that's fine. but we're going to be involved militarily, standing up anybody who invades taiwan, right? >> right. we should be. it's the third time the president said it. it's the third time the white house staff has walked it back. the white house staff should stand down. this is the right thing to do. unlike in europe, our allies and partners in asia not only want us to do this, joe, to get directly involved on behalf of taiwan, they expect it. if the united states doesn't get

directly involved on behalf of taiwan, taiwan cannot do a ukraine. it's an island. you can't get resupply in there. it has no ability for serious self-defense. we either get directly involved in taiwan, which will bring japan and others in, or china will own taiwan all too easily. so this is the right thing to do. at stake is the alliance system that, for three quarters of a century, has made asia the single most successful part of the world. i think the president is exactly right. as he pointed out, you can move to strategic clarity, to say we're going to do this, without in any way undermining the so-called one china policy and the framework of u.s.-chinese relations that, again, has worked for four decades. >> it's worked four decades. again, china has become far more aggressive militarily over the past decade. some would say over the past 20 years. and so there are concerns. listen, there are many times that joe biden makes gaffes and they have to walk those gaffes back. it reminds me of something that was said earlier in the

ukrainian conflict. there are times, richard haass, and we've talked about this, there are times where a little strategic ambiguity goes a long way. we talked about it before when biden was far more forceful. the white house walked back some of his statements. but that's something that keeps vladimir putin guessing. this is something i don't think keeps china guessing. i believe china understands after ukraine the consequences of invading taiwan. if it is something they were thinking about doing, if they had it on their to-do list in 2022, i think that's been moved off quite a bit. because what they've seen. i think the president throwing a brush back pitch here also a very good thing. >> i agree. moving to clarity, as the president did, deterrence by clarity is better than deterrence by ambiguity. it is much more person. i think you're right, china isn't going to do this soon. i think they're taken aback by

the sanctions against russia. ultimately, china is much more of an investing and trading nation than russia. china has taken the message they need to build up their nuclear weapons, joe. one of the things we've inadvertently done in the crisis here against ukraine is when the president says we're not going to start world war iii and all that. china takes that as a message saying, we, china, have to build up our nuclear weapons so the united states will exercise caution. what the president said here is, yeah, we'll be careful, but we understand how important this is. we understand the stakes. you, china, should really basically operate under the assumption that the united states will get directly involved on behalf of taiwan. this is not exactly the same thing as ukraine, given the stakes, given the geography. i actually think this is a significant, significant and welcomed strategic announcement by this president. >> there is no doubt that our allies across asia, obviously, are going to be cheered on by this, jonathan lemire.

there has been a question, whether the united states was going to stand up for its allies, whether the united states was going to stand up for its interest. obviously, asia has been growing more and more concerned over the past several years about how aggressive china has become militarily and economically and in every other way. so i would guess that, again, our allies in asia would be cheering this on, even as the white house tries to round off, let's say, some of the rough diplomatic edges. >> first of all, that is a stark contact in the approach to the region from what we saw under former president trump. we've seen this before from the white house. the president will say something where it feels he is perhaps getting ahead of the administration policy. the white house walks it back, sort of, but this one feels calculated. he said this in a way that was a message to china. some ambiguity here meant to keep china on their toes. i think that there's certainly growing concern in that region about china's growing strength.

that's what this whole trip has been about. the meeting of the quad coming up. india, australia, japan, and the u.s. with south korea also taking a more pro-u.s. approach. this new economic partnership that was unveiled today, short on the details, but certainly meant to increase economic cooperation in the region to also be against china's growth. corridors of power throughout washington, there has been this comparison, whispered comparison, between the situation with ukraine and russia and then with taiwan. today, the president said this. i'll read it. biden added that deterring china from attacking taiwan was one of the reasons why it is so important that russia's president putin, quote, pay a dear price for his barberism in ukraine. lest china and any other nations get the idea that this is acceptable. biden is saying the quiet part

out loud, saying, hey, we're hammering russia as hard as we possibly can with sanction, not just to punish them, but act as a deterrence that china won't do the same. he also added as the war winds down, at some point in russia and ukraine, a lot of the sanctions will stay in place. a further warning to china that if you go to taiwan, the sanctions against you would also be for years to come. >> we're going to turn to politics now. i would include the baby formula crisis on this list, but we'll start with roe v. wade. a potential sign that the debate is firing up democratic voters. a new npr marist poll finds 47% of registered voters now say they will support the democratic candidate in this year's midterm elections, compared to 42% who say they'll back the republican candidate. last month, before the leak of that supreme court draft opinion overturning roe v. wade, 47% of voters supported the republican candidate versus 44% who

supported the democratic candidate. we've seen this swing toward the democrats in other recent polls, as well. earlier this month, we reported on a "washington post"/abc news poll that showed republicans had lost a 10-point led over democrats over the past two months. joe, this directly relates to one of the themes that you've talked about here on "morning joe." crazy doesn't win. democrats now have -- they have an issue that really defines them from the republicans and their crazy theories, conspiracy theories, the names they call people, but also their support of overturning roe v. wade. >> we've been talking about it for a month now, saying at some point, democrats need to just talk about how crazy this republican party is, how house republicans are going to be taking power in the fall if things keep going the direction they're going. they're going to be run by people -- we've been assured

they're going to be run by people that talk about jewish space lasers, that talk about bamboo being in ballots from china, that talk about all of these qanon conspiracy theories. that many of these house republicans who are back benchers now, but kevin mccarthy promises to put into leadership positions, they're pushing all of these qanon conspiracy theories. they're talking -- let me bring in john heilemann here. they're talking about no exceptions for rape or incest for roe v. wade. i suspect this isn't just about the leaked draft in roe v. wade. it's this series of extreme, radical, crazy legislation that is passing state legislatures across the country right now. these trigger laws that protect the rights of a rapist to become

a father but do not protect the rights of a 13-year-old girl who has been raped by an uncle or raped by somebody else out in the community. and you have the oklahoma law going into place, talking about life beginning at -- even before conception. all of this, john heilemann, seems to be adding up to a real problem. i call it the le pen problem. a woman who was seen more in touch with french voters against macron, who was considered arrogant by french voters, an elitist by french voters, yet french voters said, yeah, maybe she can relate to us better than macron, but she's crazy. she's scary. we can't have her running our country. so here, we see these polls now. here's yet another one that shows a massive republican lead going away. the trend lines actually going in the democrats' direction.

>> yeah. joe, i think what's important, i think the bridge here, in a way, you and mika are saying parallel kind of connected things, right? the draft opinion from the court has triggered all of this discussion now of abortion and other issues related to privacy. the issues related to qanon and jewish space lasers and those kinds of things are, obviously, kind of flagrant examples of the republican party having gone crazy. for a lot of voters, they seem, i would say, they seem nuts, but they seem like almost cartoonish, right? the roe v. wade issue has brought the crazy into a very kind of easily identifiable and legible issue that matters to every voter, and particularly matters to every female voter in the country. you now have the crazy taking on

this form that's very tangible and is going to have -- potentially have a direct effect on the lives of a lot of americans, ordinary voters. to your point, joe, last week, there's a republican state senate candidate in the great state of michigan, endorsed by donald trump, who was on a right to life broadcast and asked about -- the host basically said, you know the left is going to say -- obviously, she's against abortion. this candidate is against abortion in all cases. the host said, you know the left is going to say you're a crazy lady who wants to now take away their right to contraception. she basically said, yeah, that's right. if this issue came before the michigan state legislature, the right to contraception, i think the rights should be rolled back. that's a small example. it is only one person, although a donald trump-endorsed candidate in michigan, that is kind of crazy that people are hearing and saying, wait a minute, this is getting real, real fast.

that's the energy on the democratic side and the weakness on the republican side of the generic ballot polls. the crazy has gotten very tangible and real for people with the question of roe v. wade being repealed. >> yeah. you look at the alito draft. the alito draft actually tears out the foundational support, not just of roe v. wade, but also griswold, the right for contraception, loving the right for interracial marriage. there's so many of these rights that are now at risk. just because alito said, oh, i know that what we've done actually undermines all of the support for contraception and all of these other issues, don't worry about it. it doesn't have to do with abortion. so you have no reason to worry about it. well, no, he can't decide what is a precedent and what is not a precedent here.

elise, you look, again, at the laws, and you look. i found your focus group last week, where the super maga people, who were proud of their support of donald trump, the super maga people, when you started talking about roe v. wade, they said, hold a second. especially the man on the left who said, i'm a guy. it's not up to me. we should leave it in the hands of women to make these decisions about their bodies, about their lives. i thought it was extraordinarily telling. it shows you why a lot of the polls where people call themselves pro life but 75% want roe upheld. that's one thing. then you have oklahoma passing a law that says life doesn't begin at conception. it's fertilization. suddenly, certain contraceptions are outlawed. you have other state legislatures actually turning the 12 and 13-year-old girls who are raped into criminals, or

their parents who are trying to help them if they're raped and 12 or 13-year-olds old, to get an abortion so they don't carry the rapist's baby. those laws are passing now, and they're proud of it. the head, i guess, of the republican governors association, ricketts, is saying, well, of course. basically, of course. we're not going to allow a 12 or 13-year-old girl who is raped to do anything but carry the -- carry full term. the radicalism here is extraordinary. again, i grew up in a baptist church. i grew up in the baptist church. i grew up surrounded by pro lifers. i went to congress as a pro lifer. i served with pro lifers. this is so far beyond. >> mm-hmm. >> so far beyond what republicans have been since

1973, even post roe. don't even get me started with how phony evangelicals have been about this issue. they were pro-choice. baptists were pro-choice until, like, '79 or '80 when it started being used as a political issue by the moral majority. don't even get me started on that. so let's just talk about the extremism and the radicalism. people are seeing this, elise. people in your focus group are seeing this, but independents are seeing this. this is the face of the republican party. old men telling 13-year-old girls who are raped, sorry, tough luck. the rapist wins. >> joe, it is such overreach, and they see it. voters see it as government overreach. and, you know, in that group, that focus group you referenced, i saw voters who were thinking and entertaining the prospect of voting for david purdue. when they saw his absolute

sentence on he would ban abortions his first day in office, they switched away. and you look at all these crazy laws around the country. i wonder when they're actually on the ballot, how much suck success they'll have. remember when mississippi tried to make the personhood amendment a thing in, i believe, 2014? that didn't pass. that would have been where women couldn't have an iud. they couldn't have certain forms of birth control. that was too extreme even for mississippi. so if democrats want to, you know -- i mean, if they want to go at republicans on this issue, they need to not be too extreme. they need to be pro-choice, not pro-abortion. you're going to see a lot of races be upended by this. even herschel walker has also said he supports an absolute ban on abortion. how is that going to play in a senate race in georgia?

>> exactly right. democrats can't be extreme, they just have to support roe where roe is right now. they have to understand that if they move beyond 20 weeks, then they're moving beyond where most of americans are. that's just the reality of it. it's time for people who want to beat radical republicans to start actually focusing on beating radical republicans, not taking extreme positions that your own base is going to support. but taking positions independents will support, swing voters will support, and will stop kevin mccarthy from becoming the next speaker of the house. mika, as far as crazy goes, again, we're talking about abortion here, but there is so much crazy out there. people are hearing every day from republicans. to make matters worse for republicans, you look at these polls again that are showing they're going in the democrats' way.

despite joe biden having horrific approval ratings. >> yeah. >> despite all of that. despite americans being shocked by inflation, being shocked by where the economy is right now. it's happening. to make matters worse for republicans, on this whole crazy mix of news stories that they literally churn out every day, you now have donald trump going on his truth social and actually promoting the idea of civil war. which, again, which, again, reminds me how any democrat that wants to maintain the majority needs to start writing letters or emails to elon musk, begging him to take over the company and letting donald trump back on twitter. >> come on back. >> i mean it. >> i hear you. >> that would be the best thing in the world for the democrats' prospects in the fall. please, let donald trump come

back. let him, instead of tweeting 280 characters, let him tweet 1,000, just for him. seriously, turn it over to him for a day. whatever he wants, make him trend, like, around the clock. that would be the best thing in the world. it reminds me, of course, mika, as you know, as you know, of the quote, more tears are shed for answered prayers than anything else. may donald trump and the republican party's prayers be answered when it comes to donald trump, elon musk, and twitter. >> this is so true. and an addendum to the roe v. wade story, this past weekend, the san francisco archdiocese banned nancy pelosi, who we're having on the show tomorrow, speaker of the house, from receiving communion. she's a staunch catholic. because of her stance on abortion, they've banned her. we'll be asking her about that. >> wow. >> this is where we're going with all of this.

>> well, you know -- >> a lot of opportunities for the democrats but a lot of challenges. >> the catholic church, really, the priests in the catholic church really do have a lot of room to stand on their high horse and be self-righteous toward parishioners who have been faithful for decades. >> we'll leave that right there. >> who stayed with it through a crisis where priests abused -- >> okay. >> -- thousands and thousands of children and passed children around from one church to another church, from one diocese to another diocese. it went all the way up to the top. and they are being self-righteous and telling nancy pelosi she can't take communion? they should thank god that nancy pelosi has remained a catholic through their torrent of the most grotesque sins imaginable. more politics ahead. we'll go live to georgia ahead of tomorrow's highly anticipated

primary election. we'll also have more from elise jordan's focus group with voters in that state, including how the economy and inflation concerns are impacting their votes. plus, my conversation with the president of the european commission amid growing calls for a cease-fire deal between ukraine and russia. also this morning, the first shipment of baby formula arrives from europe. but how long until production ramps up in the u.s., and how much will this address the problem? we'll tell you what the administration is saying about that timing. also, a new warning from president biden about the growing number of monkeypox cases around the world. you're watching "morning joe. "we'll be right back.

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the former president is suggesting another republican, who is supported by people who used to work in his administration, is searching for votes or doing something that is untoward? >> well, the pennsylvania supreme court ruled this year, and the rnc very much supports, that ballots should not be counted without a date. i think that's the law in pennsylvania. i think that should be followed. we certainly do not think that ballots without dates should be counted because how do you know when they came in? i think that's common sense. that is definitely where the rnc and the gop is. >> chairwoman ronna mcdaniel with that answer, when asked about former president trump's truth social post. that's where he gets his information out these days. urging dr. oz to declare victory in pennsylvania before a final count. great. and the weekend saw even more posts from former president trump on his own social media

platform, on truth social. he ranted about wall street -- the "wall street journal," twitter, and alabama congressman mo brooks who trump pulled an endorsement from after brooks said republicans should move on from the 2020 election. he just pulled it. perhaps the most alarming was the site's version of a re-tweet. the president's resharere-shari post that was either calling for or predicting a civil war in america. republican congressman adam kinzinger responded on twitter, posting, any of my fellow republicans want to speak out now? or are we just wanting to get through just one more election first? meanwhile, ron desantis defeated donald trump in a straw poll taken at the convention this weekend. 38% voted for desantis. 32% voted for trump.

7% for the former south carolina governor nikki haley. they were split on whether trump should run again. 43% said he should. 32% said he should not. 22% is unsure. john heilemann, what do you make of this? i'm hearing whispers in florida they'd much rather have, the republican party, ron desantis than donald trump. >> well, there's no doubt, mika, that one of the reasons why what we're seeing right now in this primary season and what's going to unfold between now and the midterm elections, why it matters. beyond donald trump's ego and our obsession with his power, i would say justifiable obsession, but our obsession with his degree of power over the party, how this plays out. why does it matter, apart from keeping score, and does donald trump have sway anymore? you know, the reason it matters is because republican -- not just republican voters, because i think most republican voters

aren't really tuned into this, but republican activists or republican donors. the republican establishment, or what's left of it, taking the measure of trump's hold over the republican party is going to tee up or frame the context for a potential presidential run for him. whether he decides if it is worth doing. what it'd mean for the party if he did. it's all in the balance. when you start to see things like -- you know, straw polls are not a terribly meaningful thing. it's a couple hundred people in wisconsin. but when you start the see a guy like ron desantis, who has been the clear second choice favorite of republican voters, with gathering strength over the course of this year, when you see little signs like that, they're like canaries in a coal mine. republicans at least are looking at trump's influence on the party. i'm talking about the activists, the people who make the primary process run. they're looking at how things are playing out for trump. they're measuring his strength and the damage he might do to the party.

at least they're saying, maybe, maybe we should consider someone else. i think that frames, you know, for donald trump, the decision he is going to make, and it kind of tees up the questions that the party is going to confront shortly after the midterm elections, when all eyes from both parties is going to turn quickly so what the presidential election is going to shape up to be in 2024. >> elise, again, we've talked about it, there's a reason he brought up mo brooks. he endorsed mo brooks, and it didn't do anything for mo brooks. mo brooks faded. he tried to destroy kemp as governor of georgia, and you have a lot of republicans rushing to georgia now, crossing donald trump, to make sure that kemp wins, including mike pence, chris christie, and others. you look at what happened in nebraska. the ricketts political machine crushed donald trump in nebraska. you look at pennsylvania. they're in a run-off right now. it looks like they're going to have a recount right now.

two out of three voters in the republican primary in pennsylvania voted against donald trump's choice. now you go to this gop straw poll. you know, straw polls may not mean a lot, but they do in donald trump's party. donald trump in wisconsin, one of the key states, is losing to a florida governor in the straw poll, doesn't matter what year it is, that shows politicians all over the country that trump's aura of inevitability seems to be fading rather quickly. >> joe, what a child, if he is going to grab back an endorsement the second things go south with his candidate. it is not going to have that much meaning. you see voters who don't really care now who trump is endorsing because there's so much back and forth. he, you know, isn't really landing the endorsement, so to speak. there is real momentum next with ron desantis. it's undeniable that there are

republican voters who are excited about the prospect of someone new. you know who else is also excited? republican big donors. he would be a very safe bet to get behind, and he has plenty of, you know, trumpian pizazz, as he has existed his populist leanings, his ability to, you know, take on the media and so on over twitter. but, you know, they'd have it without the crazy. he is an attractive choice for republicans with money to get behind in 2024. that has to make donald trump really fearful. >> you know, also, jonathan lemire, what my reporting is finding is that another group of the conservative base is also very excited about ron desantis. in part because they're so tired of donald trump. that would be the murdoch faction of the conservative movement, telling people close

to them that they are fans of ron desantis and have had enough of donald trump. >> yeah. we certainly know what incredible influence they wield over the process. let's go through some of the data points here. two things at once. trump is still the most powerful voice in the republican party. secondly, his grip has weakened some. we have here, pennsylvania republicans ignoring dr. oz's calls to declare victory before the vote is finished. we have this straw poll in wisconsin. we have a pretty mixed bag on the success rate for trump's endorsements. sure, he won in ohio, but he's struggled other places. mo brooks, the candidate from which he pulled his endorsement, he's pulled down in the polls. though trump bashed brooks, he still has a chance at the senate seat. there is growing hope between democrats and republicans, as well, that the january 6th public hearings that are coming up in a couple of weeks could detail a pretty devastating case

against donald trump's involvement and the reaction to the riot that day at the capitol. we think people believe we're so baked in, democrats think one thing about january 6th, republicans think another, and no minds will change. some members of the committee believe the evidence is so damning and the case is so compelling that it could soften the thin layer of independence for trump in the past. they could walk away from him from what they see, further hurting his chances in the republican party going forward. >> january 6th is not on the front of mind for a lot of republican voters. i will tell you, though, there are republicans who want him in the rear-view mirror because they were offended by what happened on january 6th. thank god they were. though they would never tell a pollster from a major media company that. they're offended by so much that donald trump has done. it's those swing voters that are going to be making the big difference. john heilemann, let's talk,

again, finally, we can talk about pennsylvania. i think pennsylvania is fascinating. i've talked about how two-thirds of republicans ignored donald trump in the senate race. more importantly, he just absolutely hammered dave mccormick. called him a rhino, a china-loving, basically, communist, socialist. called him everything in the book. here he is neck and neck with oz. then let's go to kemp in georgia. again, what a massive rejection of donald trump and everything donald trump has stood for. donald trump said he would support stacey abrams before supporting governor kemp. again, all of this whining, it has fallen on deaf ears in the republican party in georgia. >> right. i want to just say one thing. you know, as we talk about the ways trump is failing or trump is being -- the aura of

inevitability and invincibility is cracking, let's not forget, in a lot of the places, trump may be stumbling but trumpism is the ideology of the republican party. think about the pennsylvania race. those candidates all have sprinted as fast in donald trump's direction as possible. in some ways, trump's ideology, or whatever you want to call that set of beliefs that defines trump's world view, is winning in the republican party. that's worrying. joe, i can't emphasize enough your last point about georgia. there is no state. there is no race. there is no person in whom donald trump has been more invested than georgia, the governor's race, and brian kemp. the state is symbolically important to him. he tried harder there than any other place to steal the election. not being able to steal it hurt him the most. he despises, detests brian kemp. he spent so much time railing against kemp. he's been on the warpath.

then the fox news poll the end of last week, kemp, who has been up 15, 25 points consistently for the year, the fox poll shows the closer to election day, the further kemp is pulling ahead of david perdue. 30 points in the fox news poll. 30-point lead sounds like an outlier, if he wasn't up by 20, 25 the past month. trump this weekend was asked, why are you not campaigning for david perdue? trump said, well, i'm not back away from david perdue, but, ah, ah. you'd think if he has confidence in david perdue, he'd be there the weekend before the primary. he decided not to go to georgia this weekend. that's the clearest sign in the world that trump realizes he is going to lose this bet, be repudiated and embarrassed in the race, the state, and the person in brian kemp he most cares about.

it'll be stunning tuesday night. >> who will be there today? not donald trump but mike pence will be for brian kemp. that's interesting. mike pence getting a voice. also, pennsylvania's lieutenant governor, john felderman, out of the hospital after suffering a stroke. he will be resting still a little more. coming up, pennsylvania state gop primary is still too close to call nearly a week after election day. we'll explain how a court ruling in a different election could shake up the race. plus, the ukrainian president just addressed the world economic forum in davos, and he had a suggestion for businesses who have pulled out of russia. we'll also have more on a rare interview with the ukrainian first lady. who says her family, like many ukrainians, has been torn apart by the war. we'll be right back. my asthma felt anything but normal. ♪♪

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45 past the hour. ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy is calling for additional sanctions against russia during his speech at the world economic forum in davos. speaking virtually a short while ago, zelenskyy urged business leaders to completely cut trade ties with moscow. he also invited companies who have left russia to move to ukraine to help rebuild the war-torn economy. joining us live from davos, nbc news senior international correspondent keir simmons. what was the reaction? >> reporter: mika, there was a standing ovation. president zelenskyy speaking to a room full of some of the most powerful people in the world. he called on them to ensure that brute force would not prevail. as he put it, that one man couldn't just simply cause chaos in the world. as you mentioned, he called for

tougher sanctions, an oil embargo. he said that the world should not seem weak. he really begged the leaders not to seem weak in the face of threats of biological, chemical, or nuclear weapons by russia. and he said that all banks should be embargoed. he went on, mika, to talk about what happens after the conflict. he talked about rebuilding, the kind of investment needed. senior business leaders listening. he referred to george marshall and the famous quote, that he was against hunger, poverty, despair, and chaos. so effectively saying that ukraine will need a kind of marshall plan. speaking to people who might have the ability to make that kind of thing happen. you know, mika, i think there is a kind of sense of confusion here at davos, at the world economic forum.

keep in mind, really, this is a gathering of people whose main ideology is the rules-based international order. an ideology that is, frankly, under threat right now. at the same time, and you have to say it, there is no small amount of hypocrisy, too. this forum, in years past, was home to russian oligarchs and their entourage. in fact, the russia house just down the street there has been turned into a russia war crimes house by the ukrainians. it can't go unnoted that until the past few months, this was a place where russian leaders, russian billionaires, were welcomed. >> well, were welcomed and, keir, i understand it was -- davos was a playground for russian oligarchs. of course, there were too many people who would go there and

rub elbows with them because they wanted their money and investment. when you talk about the hypocrisy there, boy, it is really on glaring display, isn't it? >> reporter: it is. you know, i think you could argue that there has been a division of opinion in the world over how to deal with russia. we've been over this ground, joe. we know this. there are those who argue that, you know, if you gave some ground to russia, that you would effectively avoid what we've seen in the past three months. ultimately, the issue is that they, frankly, have been proven wrong by events. yes, that is a conversation that is happening here, and it is one that's very painful. because, again, i mean, these are people who adhere to the idea that if you talk, if you get in the room together, you can iron things out. all rising tide lifts all boats.

the world economy does better with globalization. what is the future now? that's really the question for many people here. many people, of course, who are leading businesses that are facing serious challenges as the walls go up around the world and we face the economic head winds. >> nbc's keir simmons, thank you so much, as always. we greatly appreciate it. richard haass, it is fascinating how the past couple months, we talked about how it's really shifted. the geopolitical map, sta teejic strategically, with germany's move, what were seeing with nato, the baltic sea being turned into a nato lake. also, there are going to be some fairly harsh reassessment s historically of leaders. angela merkel, who i saw and i know you saw as a strong and important voice in the middle of

europe while we were struggling by trumpism and his retreat from europe, from nato and the world, she doubled down on russian oil. obviously, it's going to have an impact long term. you look at one british prime minister after another, they opened the gates for russian oligarchs. they allowed london to be a playground for russian oligarchs. the money, just billions and billions of dollars going in there. a lot of these european countries now obviously do have to come to terms with just how tight they were with russia. just as i suspect, if china continues in their current path, you're going to have a lot of people looking back, asking why they thought, somehow, that economic ties with china would stop dictators from being dictators. >> you're exactly right, joe. it goes beyond the reassessment of former chancellor merkel, who does not look good, given the dependence on russian energy and her decision to cancel the nuclear power program. but there's two big ideas out

there that carried so much weight, that essentially now are being revisited. one is this idea of interdependence. countries are somehow economically linked, they'll have a stake in not interrupting economic ties, they won't go to war. last i checked, it didn't prevent world war i, and it didn't keep vladimir putin out of ukraine. probably one idea to be put aside. the other is china. the idea was if we bring china into the world trade organization, china will play by the rules. they'll become more moderate politically, more of a market economy economically. guess what? they didn't. instead, they cherry-picked globalization in ways that actually helped them rather than reform. these are two of the big ideas that have informed american and western foreign policy now for decades, and both are really suspect. there really is going to be a serious reassessment of how to approach these problematic countries. >> when you look at china, when

you look at what happened before xi, it seemed to be a bet that was paying off for a lot of people, for a lot of countries. then xi comes in, and, richard, he just -- it's very clear. i don't hear as harsh assessments against xi's leadership as i think there should be. it is very clear he's made one move after another that have hurt china. and i do wonder, at what point do the chinese leaders step up and start controlling him a bit more? because china, as you know, is not russia. it's not just one person running china. they still have that sort of old soviet style bureau. i understand he's consolidated power in a way no one has since mao, but there are checks in the party.

are you gathering any information that suggests that whether you're looking at hong kong, whether you're looking at covid, whether you're looking at what's going on with the russian conflict, that there aren't some people around him saying, you need to pull back. this is not working? >> seen a few cracks in the firment. the resurfacing of the premier is interesting. he represents the traditional point of view. my prediction, joe, is we won't see the real repudiation of xi jinping until a successor. almost like khrushchev represented stalin, my prediction is the day will come when ping's philosophy of a more reforming china will once again be in the ascendance. xi jinping will be vilified as someone who overreached. it is a question of when, not if. >> interesting. ahead, more from president biden's trip overseas. peter baker joins us on the heels of the administration's

newly announced trade agreement aimed at countering china. plus, new reporting on what the republican governors association did to counter what one governor called donald trump's personal vendetta tour in georgia. plus, justin thomas wins the pga championship after an epic comeback. we'll see if our golf correspondent, richard haass, was watching and can put this report into context without stumbling and fumbling. >> come on, mika. be supportive. >> i'll be supportive. i am. richard haass will give us a full report when "morning joe" comes right back. it■s hard eating healthy. unless you happen to be a dog. bipolar depression. it made me feel trapped in a fog. this is art inspired by real

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>> that's the commitment we made. >> well, that is the big headline from president biden's trip to asia so far, saying the u.s. military would defend taiwan against a chinese invasion. the white house quickly clarified, saying the u.s. would provide taiwan with the military means to defend itself. we'll have some new reporting on that straight ahead. plus, we'll get a live report from georgia ahead of tomorrow's primary elections. former vice president mike pence visits the state today in a race that pits his candidate against donald trump's. interesting. and joe biden's poll numbers hit another record low. in the battle for congress, a new poll shows more voters now plan to back the democratic candidate over the republican. what has changed across the country? welcome back to "morning joe." it is monday, may 23rd. jonathan lemire, elise jordan, and richard haass still with us. we'll dive right there.

president biden today said the u.s. military will get involved militarily if china invades its island neighbor. here's more of how the president answered a reporter's question this morning in ttokyo. >> you didn't want to get involved in the ukraine conflict militarily for obvious reasons. are you willing to get involved militarily to defend taiwan if it comes to that? >> yes. >> you are? >> that's the commitment we made. that's the commitment we made. we are not -- look, here's the situation. we agree with the one china policy. we sign onto it and all the agreements made from there. but the idea it can be taken by force, just taken by force, is just not -- is just not appropriate. it'll dislocate the entire region and be another action, similar to what happened in ukraine. and so it's a burden that is

even stronger. >> shortly after that news conference, the white house seemingly tried to clarify president biden's remarks, writing in a statement, quote, the president reiterated our commitment to peace and stability across the taiwan strait. and to provide taiwan with the military means to defend itself. joe, of course, a big conversation with the head of the european commission that i had yesterday in china was one of the issues looming in the future, beyond the war in ukraine, learning from the russian invasion, just what is the relationship with china and the dependence economically, and how do we counter the growing threat with china? >> well, you look over the horizon. you look past what's happening with russia and ukraine right now. that will come to an end. china will still be there. it is going to be, obviously, china, the united states, and a reemergent europe who are going to be sharing the globe.

i would have said six months ago that it was -- and i did say it was going to be a bipolar world. china and the united states. it's now -- europe has made it very clear, it's going to be a tri-polar world. but, richard haass, we had spoken before about joe biden talking about militarily, the importance of supporting taiwan. we played a little more of the clip that time. it showed even more clarity when he said, we support the one china policy. we continue to support the one china policy. but understand the great disturbance that would be cause caused by an invasion of taiwan. let's reiterate what we talked about last hour. people in the white house could have clarified his comments, but i personally don't think they needed clarification. just simply because we send a message -- we're sending a clear message to china through joe

biden. >> exactly right. i think the president was 100% right. we're not changing the fundamental policies in our relationship with china. that's the one china policy and so forth. but what we decided over 40 years ago is this needs to be worked out in a non-coercive, non-military way. how we implement that policy, joe, that's up to the united states. what the president said was perfectly right. just like china has changed the way it implements its policy. it is dramatically built up its arms against taiwan. i think the white house staff should stand down. what the president said should stand. what the united states really needs to do is close the gap between, now, what is articulated policy and our ability. what we need to do is increase the military strength of the united states in the region. you and mika were talking about europe. what we need to make sure is we don't repeat the same mistake with china that we made with russia. we can have the south koreans,

japanese, taiwanese, as well as ourselves, so independent on economics with china, that if and when there is a crisis with taiwan, we are deterred. we are worried about china sanctioning us. i think there is a window to build up military and reduce our dependence on china economically. that's what we ought to be talking about with partners and allies in asia as well as europe. >> let's go to south korea now and bring in chief white house correspondent for the "new york times," peter baker. after donald trump spent four years undermining nato, after donald trump abandoned the kurds by pulling troops out of syria that were defending the kurds. after joe biden pulled out troops from afghanistan, many thinking we abandoned allies there, there has to be a collective sigh across asia that joe biden reiterated the stance

and alliance with taiwan. >> yeah, i think there is something to that. this is not the first time joe biden has gone beyond the traditional strategic ambiguity, the phrase often used with american president, what it would do if taiwan was attack bid force. traditionally, america said, we support taiwan and we don't want them attacked militarily. what the american presidents haven't done is say we, the united states, would get involved militarily. president biden has gone beyond that strategic ambiguity today by saying, flatly, yes, we'd get involved militarily. it's not the first time he's said it. it is not the first time the white house staff tried to walk him back. at a certain point, you have to realize the president is saying what he really thinks. we heard him do this again a few months ago with regard to russia. he said that he considered put putin to be a war criminal and thought putin shouldn't stay in power. these are remarks that the white

house tried to carefully calibrate or explain way. in fact, i think it represents what president biden really thinks. people are looking for a sign from this president that it will, in fact, you know, stick by its allies. he made it clear he plans to when it comes to taiwan. >> peter, it's jonathan. want your assessment of the president's trip so far. he unveiled a partnership for the region this morning. short on details, but an effort to tether the group together, to work as a bulwark against china expansion. north korea to this point has been quiet, and that may not last. u.s. officials fear there could be a weapons test even while the president is in the region. so much of this, of course, has been about beijing. not just today but also with the quad meeting upcoming. does the white house feel good about what they have gotten across to this point? >> i think they do. they feel they have reaffirmed american influence in the region after years of, you know,

uncertainty because of president trump's actions. remember, president trump basically seemed to fall in love, as he put it, with kim jong-un while, you know, undercutting american allies by saying he was going to pull troops out perhaps from south korea or force them to pay more money. the underlying defense agreement with japan has been the bedrock of the relationship going back decades. i think president biden has come back and said, look, you know, we're not going to get back into tpp. that's a dead letter because, in fact, the liberals at home don't like that any more than president trump liked it when he pulled out five years ago. this new economic framework is trying to get the same ideas. we're going to help set the rules of the road and not leave the space entirely to china. you hear places like japan and south korea, the two places he is visiting, welcoming american leadership with regard to that. even, as you say, if there is lack of detail or lack of concrete, you know, tangible outcomes at this point. it's only the beginning of a

process in which they'll negotiate specific agreements. basically, you know, china is the big focal point with the ukraine war hovering over it. lessons of whatever we take from that conflict, how that applies to this region loom pretty large. >> peter baker, thank you very much for joining us this morning. to ukraine now. president biden has signed a $40 billion package to ukraine. that happened on saturday. in the middle of his trip to asia, after the bill was flown on a commercial flight to south korea. the measure, which passed in the senate last week, with bipartisan support, will provide military and humanitarian assistance to the war-torn country. it also includes money for ukrainian refugees and funds to address global food shortages. the funding is intended to support ukraine through september. meanwhile, ukraine says it won't agree to any cease-fire deal with russia that involves giving

up its territory. the country's presidential chief of staff said, quote, the war must end with a complete restoration of ukraine's territorial integrity and sovereignty. a day earlier, an adviser to president volodymyr zelenskyy said making any concessions to russia would backfire because moscow would hit back harder after a break in fighting. this as zelenskyy said on saturday that he believes diplomacy is the only way to end this war. speaking on the third anniversary of his inauguration as president, zelenskyy said the war, quote, will be bloody, and the end will definitely be in diplomacy. meanwhile, poland's president became the first foreign leader to address ukraine's parliament in person since the war began this weekend. speaking in kyiv in a packed chamber filled with both ukrainian and polish flags, president duda warned of the

serious consequences for ukraine and the entire western world if even a tiny part of ukraine is sacrificed in a peace deal. he went on to say he will not rest until ukraine is a member of the european union. ukrainian president zelenskyy praised duda for both supporting the country and also promoting sanctions on russia. more than 3 million ukrainians have fled to poland since the invasion. a lot going on there. i spoke with ursula about sanctions and the disconnect between the sanctions from the west and the sanctions from the eu, and what more can be done. also, this is so symbolic, richard haass. poland and ukraine have partnered up. my brother describes this sort of fast-moving miracle happening on the border. the u.s. and the polish government completely connected to help the refugees. the world coming together. businesses around the world coming together. the country coming together.

local communities coming together. this would not happen in america. yes, they have baby formula. it really is incredible, what the pols and the ukrainians have been able to do for each other. >> the scale of this. i mean, 3 million people -- >> in less than four months. >> -- in a country the size of poland. that would be be here? 10, 15, 20 million people? >> imagine that happening here. >> this is a remarkable not just human thing but governmental, the private sector, the mobilization of resources. the only problem with all of this is nothing there, and it gets at what you were talking about with sanctions, the biggest single sanction that still hasn't happened is russian gas. that continues to fund the war effort. until the germans and the europeans get serious about doing something about gas, this war going to continue. >> yeah. clearly with the refugees, so many families are torn apart. a little later here on "morning joe," we're going to show the very first interview that volodymyr zelenskyy's wife has done, olena zelenska talks about

how the war has um pactimpacted family and what the war has been resulting in. interesting to talk to her. mike pence's break with donald trump on full display when he campaigns for brian kemp in georgia. georgia's primary election is tomorrow, and kemp has pulled away from his trump-backed challenger, david perdue. kemp is a top target of donald trump after kemp decided to, of course, support the big lie. the republican governors association hatched a plan months ago to spend millions to defend incumbents against what one former governor called trump's personal vendetta tour. the group personally invested $5 million to defend kemp in georgia. joining us now from atlanta, nbc news correspondent von hilliard. i think mike pence getting a

voice on all this, including the big lie, is kind of fascinating. >> reporter: mika, we've talked now for how many years, about at what point republicans would ban together to essentially push back against donald trump. this moment here in 2022, it's finally happened. brian kemp is the figure. the fox news poll late last week shows brian kemp with a 60% to david perdue's 28%. it provided him the opening here. this is the most notable, the most robust effort to beat back a trump-backed candidate, dating back to 2016 when donald trump was that candidate himself. not only will vice president pence will in down, but you'll see doug ducey, chris christie, ricketts out of nebraska.

it is not the robust effort, but think about the last six years. you have not seen that sort of effort among incumbent republicans coming into a state to help out a candidate and essentially defend one of their own. that is what you've seen happen here. i was out on the trail here with brian kemp and david perdue, and it is striking. david perdue, the entire basis of his campaign, mika, has been the 2020 election. this idea of the election conspiracies that have been propagated by the former president. but what you have seen, and based off of numerous conversations i've had with voters here, georgian republicans view brian kemp as one of them, as a conservative. ultimately, november, stacey abrams is going to have her own race to run, but brian kemp, you know, from the election voting measure he signed into law last year, so the heart beat bill he signed into law in 2019, towards his pandemic response, you know, and the openings of business early on in 2020 compared to

other states, time and time again, you have heard republican voters step up and say, brian kemp has served our state well. perhaps they have questions about 2020, but to have that as the basis of a run for governor has not led them to ultimately vote for david perdue. you also noticed in that fox news polling, 37% of republican voters said that trump's endorsement made them more likely to support david perdue. but put that into context here. we're talking about republican voters here in the state of georgia. sure, it will give david perdue a leg up, and he will be able to build off of that. but in a race against an incumbent governor, a popular one at that, it's not here enough in 2022. that is what makes it striking about that question, of just how potent is donald trump's influence in 2022 and beyond? >> nbc's vaughn hilliyard, thank you so much. we appreciate it.

we can also talk about alabama, a state where donald trump says people love him the most. he, of course, ditched mo brooks when mo brooks was down in the polls. now, a latest poll has mo brooks pulling up, tied within the margin of error after being dumped by donald trump a couple of months ago. so, again, these questions about whether trump helps or even may be hurting in these republican polls. elise jordan, let's look at georgia for a second. this is so fascinating. georgia, of all states, what we used to call when i was born there the empire state of the south. georgia becoming -- is elise there? >> she is. >> i'm here. >> did elise walk off the set? >> i'm here. >> i was talking to elise, and i was just wondering why i wasn't seeing elise. now, there's elise. >> there you go. >> empire state, that's a new

one. >> yeah, i think it was a '60s thing, the empire state of the south. anyway, donald trump's waterloo in 2020 was georgia. it was what he couldn't get around. it may be his legal waterloo, being recorded on the phone saying, "i need this number of votes. you need to find it for me." that could be a problem. it was the gop senate's waterloo in 2022 when donald trump went down to georgia and pretty much handed the senate to chuck schumer and the democrats. now, we find ourselves in 2022. he is going to be humiliated there in the peach state now again in 2022. this is -- and mike pence coming in to get his kick in. the republican governors association getting their kicks in. i mean, it is pretty fascinating, what is going on in georgia and how this has turned out to be a very, very tough state for the former president.

>> it's almost like donald trump just doesn't understand georgia politics. you know, you look at what's going to happen probably tomorrow, and brian kemp has been a popular governor. to oust an incumbent is a tall order. yet, donald trump, because he, you know, has no check on his ego, he thought he could do it. you're going to look and see what happens tomorrow, and it's just kind of amazing that david perdue let himself be set up for this disaster. did he really need this after also having donald trump basically concede his senate seat already, you know, in georgia? so let's watch this one, but i'm wondering if brad raffensperger, the secretary of state, now, that's the race. what is going to happen in the secretary of state race tomorrow? >> of course, brad raffensperger. jonathan lemire. >> he is up in the polls, too. nothing makes republicans and mitch mcconnell angrier than how trump botched the senate run-offs in 2021, which gave

democrats control of the senate. now, his hand-picked senate candidate, herschel walker, shall we say, has baggage to face. he'll cruise to the nomination but has issues to overcome for the general election in november, as weal. still ahead, we'll hear from georgia voters ahead of tomorrow's primary elections. elise jordan asked folks from both sides of the aisle about january 6th and how the attack on the capitol sim pacs impacti their votes. i can't wait to hear the conversation. plus, rudy giuliani in front of the committee investigating january 6th. what we know about that interview. and president biden calls the recent outbreaks of monkeypox cases a cause for concern. what we know about that virus, and what the administration is doing to prevent its spread. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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plus, right now, you may pay zero dollars for botox®. learn how abbvie could help you save on botox®. it's 24 past the hour. just turned 25. a beautiful shot of new york city. welcome back to "morning joe." more than 100 cases of monkeypox have been reported in 12 countries, including the u.s. the viral infection is rarely seen outside of the central and western african nations, where it is andemmic. according to the world health organization, the monkeypox virus, causes fever, body aches, chills, and fatigue. severe cases may cause rashes and lesions on parts of the body. it is primarily spread from

animals to humans in bites and scratches, but humans can give it to each other through prolonged face-to-face contact. cases were confirmed in massachusetts, new york, and suspected in florida. >> well, they haven't told me the level of exposure yet, but it is something that everybody should be concerned about. we're working on it hard, to figure out what we do and what vaccine, if any, may be available for it. but it is a concern, in the sense that if it were to spread, it's consequential. that's all they've told me. >> the cdc says there is, quote, no proven safe treatment for monkeypox, but the food and drug administration has approved the use of smallpox vaccines and anti-viral treatments to help control outbreaks. most people who get monkeypox recover within a couple of weeks. former president trump's one-time lawyer, rudy giuliani,

sat for a lengthy interview with the committee investigaing the january 6th attack on the capitol. people familiar with the interview say it was virtual and lasted more than 7 hours. it is unclear what he told the committee. because of his efforts to help overturn the results of the 2020 election, he could potentially be a pivotal witness for the panel. giuliani was one of the last major witnesses the committee had pushed to speak with before holding public hearings next month. we're also learning more about the efforts of ginny thomas to overturn the election. wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas sent emails to arizona lawmakers, calling on them to, quote, choose a clean slate of electors. this is according to the "washington post"'s reporting. thomas sent the emails days

after the 2020 election, claiming the vote had been marred by fraud. thomas urged the lawmakers to, quote, stand strong in the face of political and media pressure. she told the lawmakers the responsibility to choose electors was, quote, yours and yours alone. and said they have the power to fight back against fraud. wow. the "post" has previously reported on ginni thomas' text messages to mark meadows, former chief of staff, asking him to help reverse the election results. thomas did not respond to the "post's" request for comments. so unbelievably disturbing, joe. >> well, i mean, you can call it whatever you want to call it. it is un-american. it is anti-democratic. and you have somebody, obviously, very close to a supreme court justice who is the

lone dissenter in the post-election cases, that, jonathan lemire, is telling state legislators that they can overturn the will of millions and millions of voters, simply because they didn't vote the way that ginni thomas wanted them to vote. it's -- again, i don't -- there's just not another word. it is un-democratic. it is anti-american. un-american and anti-democratic. it is really shocking. >> yeah, this scheme to put forth an alternate set of electors was one of the more far-fetched hatched by trump and his allies, but a lot of energy was put behind it. this is what the john eastman memo was largely about, they'd throw out the electors in six, seven battleground states and replace them with ones that would be supportive of donald trump. they got the furthest in arizona. there was preliminary meetings. that's what ginni thomas was

wright writing about. it did fall apart. the governor of arizona, much like governor kemp, has taken the wrath of donald trump, because they wouldn't go along with this scheme. certainly, this revelation over the weekend is only going to increase the spotlight on ginni thomas and clarence thomas. the calls will grow for him to recuse himself going forward for any sort of case that is connected to trump, connected to the 2020 election, and there may be more in the months ahead. this comes, mika, a few weeks before the prime time january 6th hearings put a fresh spotlight on what happened then. >> it really will. for those who want to forget, it'll be tough that week. elise, you have more from your fascinating focus groups. democrat and republican voters in georgia. this morning, their takes on the january 6th attack on the capitol. what did they tell you? >> what you just said was so interesting. those who want to forget. >> yeah. >> republican voters, a lot of

them, would really like to forget what happened january 6th. it bothered them. it was not okay the capitol was stormed and this behavior. they want to forget it. they want to focus on the incidents during the black lives matter protests. then you talk to democratic voters who see a complete double standard. how if they had -- if black lives matter had behaved that way and stormed the capitol, what would have happened? >> oh, my gosh. >> let's listen to those voters now, starting with democratic voters in georgia, on how they see january 6th. >> one of the biggest thins i saw, what was hypocritical, is how they attacked the police. you know, when they were always talking about blue lives matter, this, and while we were doing black lives matter, they were doing blue lives matter. for them to attack police is, like, you're hypocritical.

you know, you're hit -- hypocriticals. >> they attacked the police. they stormed the capitol. they threatened members of congress. they did all of those things. black lives matter did not step foot on a step, and they had the army. they called in every resource. they remained non-violent. there were no sort of assaults that took place. but you have these people who are not people of color show up and just -- >> you think it would have been different if it was a bunch of muslim people showing up at the capitol? >> absolutely. >> with guns? >> a lot of death. >> terrorist, terrorist, terrorist. >> kent state. >> yes. >> the 2020 protests, i feel like the people that were the real protesters, i don't think any of those people should be punished for anything. they were getting the word out. they were being peaceful. >> that is another thing.

the news chooses what they want to display. there is so much that i wouldn't know. >> all channels. >> exactly. i feel like they always shine an eye on the things that are so negative when it comes to people of color. always negative. even with the insurrection, you would have thought we were talking about -- we talked about george floyd, you know, what he did because he was the victim. we talked about breonna taylor. she was the victim. we demean them and make them less than they are. you have the insurrectionists, it's what they are, and you hear about them two seconds and, boom, we'll talk about this man who was shot in the driveway. but he had a criminal past, this, that, and the other. it's just ridiculous. >> how is it any different than what happened, per se, right here on the streets of atlanta with those riots? how is it different? >> but y'all didn't like those riots. >> that's what i'm -- that's my point. it shouldn't be treated any

differently. >> right. >> the people that participated should be -- >> held accountable. >> -- held accountable for what they did. >> people participating in the riots were not held accountable. >> they should have been. >> were not even recognized. >> absolutely. >> but the republican party released a statement saying that that was legitimate political discourse. does anyone think that was legitimate political discourse, january 6th? >> sure, until they trespassed. once they trespassed, what did they do? they walked up the stairway. they went in the rotunda and walked become out. now they're in prison for two years. >> they poo-pooed and paid in the -- peed in the hallways. >> there were only 100 bad actors. the rest of the people were largely respectful, from what i've seen, what i read. >> do you not think they were being serious, the mob, when they were yelling, "hang mike

pence." it was a scary day, i thought. i was freaked out. for people who were at the capitol, sounded horrifying. someone had to clean up the mess. >> there was a lot of bad stuff that happened that day, i agree. but i believe the portion of people that were troublemakers is very small. number two, how many of those troublemakers were actually antifa or -- >> exactly. >> -- intentional troublemakers. >> exactly. >> there's a whole series of questions that don't add up. and you have to go through this much boilerplate and crap to find the three nuggets of truth or hard fact or information that really mattmatters. i'm frustrated by the entire thing, i want to forget about it. but i looked at every photograph in the ajc, about 20 photos that day. all the ones smashing and bashing and crashing, 25, 28 years old, skinny jeans with the beards. i said to myself, that's not the normal republican.

i mean, look at us here. i mean, maybe he was paid to do that. none of it makes any sense. and when you read about, you know, ray epps being at the one gate that fell first, when you read about the molotov cocktails left at the dnc the night before with only a mechanical kitchen timer, not anything remotely triggered, so after 60-minutes, the timer can't be activated. kamala harris went to the dnc. bombs were found by her crew at 11:50, 12:50, within five minutes of ray epps giving the orders to crash the first barrier. then the riots started. because the police had to withdraw from that area and investigate the molotov cocktails. there is so much going on when you bore down into the facts.

>> let's take a step. so if this was happening, and it was antifa, then why didn't president trump whip into action and stop it? he didn't tweet. he didn't call off the dogs. why was that? >> yeah. you know, elise, there are a lot of people that are watching this and saying, how could these educated people come to the conclusions they come to, that go against what -- i'll just say, that go against logic. for instance, aantifa? no, you have republican members, kevin mccarthy screaming in the phone to donald trump while it is going down, "this isn't antifa. these are your people, mr. president." you have other republicans that were scared to death that day for their lives. it wasn't just people kind of

sauntering through there. there's so many things. you know, cops being beaten up. beaten up within an inch of their lives. you had so many trump supporters, so many people. again, just an effort to minimize this. and i think, elise, what this shows is not that there are two realities, because there's not. we haven't moved into a post-truth world. i know that's what donald trump has tried to move us to, but we haven't moved into a post-trump -- post-truth world. what we've moved into is a world where a lot of people that you talk to, a lot of my good, life-long friends a lot of really educated people, they don't look at images like this. they don't want to see images

like this. they live in their own bubble, and they look at their own conspiracy websites. you know, whether it's a chinese religious cult, the epic times, that spreads disinformation to try to attract followers to their website, the chinese religious cult, or whether it is other conspiracy websites, qanon stories. it's two different realities. it is interesting, he said, well, it doesn't make sense. the gentleman said, well, it doesn't -- that's what my friends and family members say when you confront them with basic facts, basic truth. they say, well, i don't know. it just doesn't make sense. it doesn't make sense because they don't want it to make sense. >> and they want to just forget about it. if the facts are uncomfortable surrounding january 6th, they'd

rather just move on and not have to focus on this is what donald trump's election denial brought. it brought a mob invading the capitol and putting at risk countless lives. it, you know -- there were police officers who died that day. there were protesters who died that day. it was a terrible day in american history. the images just reverberated around the world. it's a stain on our democracy and our example that we set for the world. so, yes, i understand why people would like to forget it, but i'm really glad, and i think it is so important that we're about to have the january 6th facts find -- the facts just out there in congress soon. let's bring in an atlanta native to the conversation. erin hanes, editor at larns for the non-profit the nineteenth. also "on brand" with donny

deutsch. to get a sense of what voters are thinking, donny, first of all, you say it is the economy. it is inflation. it's the economy. that's what it is ultimately going to impact voters. let's look at how voters are feeling about the economy. we have some new polling, is it, alex, that we can show? or from the voter group, okay. >> we have more. we have a segment on the economy if you want to roll it. >> let's hear from elise's focus group on the economy, then i'll jump to donny. take a look. >> let's show our hands, who thinks inflation is a problem? >> yeah, i mean, my daughter haas a newborn. diapers are crazy expensive. fortunately, she doesn't need formula. that's an issue, as well. these poor, you know, 30-ish-year-old married kids trying to buy a house for the first time, they absolutely can't get in on anything that's in their price range. somebody else comes in and takes over. it's just really frustrating for a lot of people.

>> well, and everyone in this group cited inflation as a problem. >> yes. yes, my house, the value of it now is $160,000 more than when i bought it two years ago. great for me. but when i think about my daughter wanted to buy a home, going through a program and having to put down a down payment, things like that, it's out of her reach. it is nowhere near her reach. buying a home is the american dream. it should be everyone's right. but it is impossible to afford a nice home. i mean, these homes are ridiculously priced. >> we're lucky to have a mortgage that we got four years ago, but i cannot even imagine. i'm scared, what if scenarios, for people with rent, rents are going up like crazy. people have been forced out of their apartments because they cannot afford the rents. you know, just the regular grocery bill, you know, went up. you go to kroger's and end up spending $150 to $200 and, like, what did i buy?

>> mika, this is something both republicans and democrats can agree on. one of the things that was striking to me was the woman in the republican group talking about younger americans that are trying to find housing, trying to find their first home, and housing prices, she is so right, they've exploded. so if you're a young couple, let's say, in atlanta, and you're trying to find a home, even a condo now, it gets snapped up just like that. on top of that, gas prices exploding. groceries exploding. interest rates going up. this is just absolutely brutal. there is a reason why we saw agreement from republicans and democrats alike. >> yes. >> because this, for middle-class americans, this is a brutal, brutal economy. >> and it's not going anywhere. this is the problem. donny, i want to hear your thought on this, but i'll just add in, for the white house and for democrats, the sort of microcosm of this problem is the

baby formula crisis. >> yeah. >> which may not have been -- i mean, the republican policies may have contributed to it, but this is the white house's problem. they'renow tweeting in what is a non-joe biden response. he takes responsibility and action. they're saying, yay, a plane arrived for 9,000 babies for one week. no, no. that's not enough. this is going to go on for a month. it could be catastrophic. the white house needs to show passion and responsibility and, yes, talk about the republican policies that have contributed to this problem, the monopoly on baby formula, perhaps the lack of regulation and oversight at the one plant. there are a lot of ways you can blame republicans, but, also, there are some key issues with this economy that are just plain realities. it is going to be with us for a long time. >> look, the ap poll just, in a more macro sense, 8 in 10 people

think we're in the wrong direction. joe biden's numbers are 39%. 33% on the economy. the scary thing -- >> because we are. >> the scary thing is, in 2008 and 2020, the government had the tools to fix it. >> yeah. >> they were able to lower interest rates or flood the economy with money. it's the opposite now. they have to tighten interest rates and make them higher. we're walking into a perfect storm. however, and i say this as a big however, and this is a kind of bringing the thread back to elise's groups, joe, you talked earlier in the show about how, in a generic poll, a democratic generic poll, as far as candidates running for congress, democrat versus republican, there has been a 10% switch. basically, now, more people would vote democrat. which flies completely in the face of the economic numbers. the only explanation is the crazy factor, roe v. wade, replacement theory factor.

and as we tee up the election, what is the bigger fee factor, the craziness of the republicans or the economic numbers? >> brand up or brand down, joe, you have to wonder. >> yeah. crazy is still brand down. it is something the republican party, the republican party should be 10, 2 pointed ahead. gas prices, different issues. again, they've taken such extreme positions. there's so much extreme news, radical right-wing information that's moving in front of us. you look at buffalo. you look at replacement theory. you look at the fact that republicans will not call out replacement theory or those who champion replacement theory. you look, again, at the qanon conspiracy theories that too many republicans who are going

to be in charge in the house in a year, if kevin mccarthy is speaker of the house, won't back away from. you look at elise stefanik embracing replacement theory, talking about pedophiles. it is just absolutely crazy. erin, i want to circle back and go back to something that elise heard in the focus group from a member of the democratic focus group. i think it is important, especially post buffalo. you look at what happened on january 6th. the democrats are exactly right. if those had not been predominantly white people, if they'd been black people, if they had been muslims, god help them if they had been muslims. as i said the day after, there would have been snipers up on the roofs shooting them all. so a lot of people look at what happens and hear republicans saying, let's just put it in the past. that says all that a lot of

people need to hear, which suggests that we live in two americas still. >> yeah. i mean, joe, you're absolutely right. look, when we're talking about partisan politics in the south, you know we're also talking about race. you saw that in this riveting latest installment of this focus group from elise, which i'm obsessed with. you know, really hearing from voters directly about the issues that could be animating them to go to the polls is really important. this is an issue that's animating voters. racism is on the ballot for black voters. it continues to be so. that is the case from what you heard from these voters in this focus group. you had henry talking about the hypocrisy between, you know, the way black lives matter peaceful, largely non-violent protesters were framed, versus people who stormed the capitol violently, because they didn't like the outcome of the election, because they didn't like certain people

casting their ballot and buying into the big lie that the election was rigged or stolen. then you had to reason to the republican voters on the other side, basically hearing that one voter equating -- and this was powerful, by the way, for metro atlanta voters, those images from the cnn center, right? you had people destroying property, you know, where things turned violent in the racial reckoning protests in atlanta. but you had the mayor, unlike the former president, rejecting that violence. those protesters were not held accountable they were saying. they were. the mayor condemned that and said it was wrong and urged those folks to turn around and go home. i mean, i don't know that martin will be watching the 1-6 hearings coming up, but, you know, he certainly seemed to be willing to dismiss and deflect what the reasons were for why

january 6th happened. folks, you know, saying -- calling them trespassers and saying they were largely respectful. you know, i don't think that that's what most of us saw when we looked at what we saw on january 6th. it is going to be much harder to kind of distract from what we know happened when those hearings go public. it's going to be interesting most of the primaries have already happened. obviously before those 1/6 hearings. in georgia, you'll have voters on both sides rejecting the big lie. but the question heading into the general election, what are voters willing to do? do say see a real threat or a need to protect democracy? that is going to be the framing in states like georgia and pennsylvania where democracy is absolutely on the ballot. >> erin hayes, thank you very much for your insight this morning. and donny deutsch thank you, as well. >> what we need to remember, we

talk a lot about facebook and the way people get their news. then you see the human result of it. we sometimes separate and talk about it in the abstract. but the reality is, people can create their own reality with this. you saw it in front of you right there. >> thank you, as well, and we'll see you in the fourth hour for a brand up, brand down. still ahead this hour on "morning joe" -- [ screaming ] >> that's nbc's sports soccer analyst roger bennett celebrating on championship sunday in the premier league. roger joins us to break down the final day drama next on "morning joe." well would you look at that? ♪ ♪ jerry, you've got to see this. seen it. trust me, after 15 walks it gets a little old. i really should be retired by now.

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mighty casey struck out. it's time to bring in nbc sports soccer analyst and co-host of "men in blazers" roger bennett. it was a difficult day for us in the scarborough household. jack and joey and i watching what i thought, and i'm sure you were thinking too, was captain fantastic. villa goes up 2-0 against city and liverpool pushing and charging up to score. it reminded me so much, i thought it was a replay of a decade ago when city was playing qpr and they needed a goal to win. thought they were going to get it in the end. but city reversed the script, extraordinary run, three goals, five minutes, alas, the quad not to be. >> joe, you said it all. let's take a look after nearly ten months and 370 games, the premier league came to its final day with a title race deadlocked

as a pennsylvania senate runoff. the boston red sox own liverpool, just one point behind manchester city. liverpool chasing the quadruple, including the champion leagues final next weekend. they did their part on the last day amidst stirring scenes. they flattened wolferhampton 3-1. but at manchester city, just 36 miles away, the other industrial city of the northwest of england, those footballing terminators, manchester city, they seemed, well, suddenly incredibly human, almost vulnerable. they really fluffed their lines. the title in their grip, but went down 2-0. and just 76 minutes to go, that's how the scoreline was. this is astonishing to witness.

but then an astonishing finale, they scored three goals inside 5 1/2 minutes. the winner in the 81st minute. fourth title in five seasons. really, achievement. for the last day, premier league football, nothing like it. whoever writes this should win all the emmys and a sprinkle of tonies in there, too. we should know the 25-year-old ukrainian, who has really struggled emotionally down the stretch, broke down in tears, as he wrapped the trophy in the ukrainian flag. i have no idea what emotions he could have been feeling.

football, a mirror to the world which everybody could be seen. god bless you. and at the other end of the table, legion on the brink of relegation. at the last, a miracle, 2-1, under that file is an american born manager, jessie marsh, two preserved the team's premier league status at the last, the highest an american has ever finished. look at what it means to him. being the fourth to last worst team, jessie marsh of racine, wisconsin, you are a great american, beautiful moment. >> you know, roger, also just for americans who don't know about leads, leads is an extraordinary team 20 years ago. and just went down, relegated

league by league. they got up a couple of years. they're just one of those teams, their fan base is extraordinary, but also a team along with new castle that everybody loves to hat. so there are a lot of fans like myself, i wanted leads to stay up and staying in there. >> it's raining north of england. leeds owned in large part by the san francisco 49ers. and that american manager, to be relegated is equivalent moving from the major league to the major leagues, like the cincinnati reds going down to aaa and the toledo mud hens coming up. >> alex keeps telling me to go

to mika. we have one more story line out of italy. ac milan shocks the world. and that american ownership group, the elliott group, just turns things around in record time. >> it's an unbelievable thing. they brought an institution, of football teams, elliott paulsinger turned that team around and delivered them glory. american owners, when they know what they don't know are the great force in football. the oligarchs that rallied with the petral dollars they brought in. american sports entrepreneurs, many will be watching the show and thinking about buying into football, they are the future of the game. we may not be great on the men's

side yet, but no one owns teams better than the americans. >> roger bennett, thank you so much. roger, of course, the author of just a book that changed the way we all think about america. more importantly, how we remember heart to heart. thank you so much. greatly appreciate it. top of the third hour of "morning joe," and richard haass is officially feeling left out. he wanted to talk golf, the dramatic end to the golf tournament. so we're going to give you a minute, richard, actually 45 seconds. stick to time, be a good reporter, bring us through the dramatic end. >> second major of the year, justin thomas, seven strokes down, going into the final round. wins his second pga. he's the son and the grandson of a pga professional. great perseverance.

perera from chile, all he needed was a par. he double bogeys it. not since phil mickelson blew up 16 years ago at the open has someone had a brain cramp like this to lose a major tournament. really tragic. third story line, tiger woods. tiger woods made the cut against expectations. the third round, you had a physical breakdown. nine strokes over, had to withdraw from the tournament. real questions over whether he can compete at this kind of a level. perseverance, mental breakdown, physical breakdown. mika, you had it all if you had only watched. >> i was not watching, but the question i have for richard, but you can ask him, was he screaming like roger was at the end of this? >> mika, this is not a sport of hooligans, this is a sport of gentleman. >> oh!

and they attempts to quote unquote sports wash, to use sports to make themselves presentable to the world. phil mickelson is -- he's passed his crime as a golfer. i think we're seeing the passing of the torch. but he has his own special problems from his gambling to politically incorrect comments. >> to doubt about it. we have to talk about red sox baseball.

at this point, it's getting boring. we're not only winning, but winning in the most dramatic of ways. a grand slam yesterday. the day before we come back from 5-0. and that's taking it team. sox win 8-4. again, that's just what we do these days, jonathan. that's just what we do. >> it's a different star every day. the story is the same, but the actors change. cordero, unlikely hero yesterday. trevor story went on a home run barrage. they've won 8 out of 10. they are definitely playing better. we are far behind the yankees and their payroll, but only a couple out of the wild card. look at this. things are getting interesting. >> okay.

by the way -- >> i think i can, i think i can. and those sox are just starting to go up that hill. they think they can. in a moment, we'll be talking to the chairman of the house armed services committy after president biden says the u.s. will respond militarily if china invades taiwan. but first, the latest on the baby formula crisis. a shipment from europe arrived in the u.s. yesterday. the usda says it's enough to feed 9,000 babies and 18,000 toddlers for one week. nbc's jo ling kent reports. >> reporter: as the nation grapples with widespread formula shortages, this morning relief could be on the horizon. the first operation fly formula aircraft touching down in

indianapolis on sunday. aboard this c-17, 17,000 pounds of formula. unloaded after its journey from germany. >> this provides enough formula to take care of 9,000 babies and 18,000 toddlers. >> reporter: it's destined for babies and kids with cow's milk allergy. >> now we can breathe a little bit. >> reporter: the first batch, which has already been tested, will be sent to hospitals and health care providers in a couple of days. the rest of the shipment will be tested and sent out in the next two weeks. how long do you expect to be distributing formula on an emergency basis? >> as long as it takes. but until the production capacity has caught up, so a matter of weeks. >> reporter: the supply arriving just as new york city declared a state of emergency over the formula shortage. and the ceo of abbott plant

apologized in "washington post" op-ed, saying we're sorry to every family we've let down since our voluntary recall. this mother has one week of formula left for her baby son, dylan, who has a cow milk's allergy. >> it's anger or betrayal that we feel. if the government was aware of this, you know, we kind of should have been more proactive in getting our hands on the formula before the shortage got to this point. >> did the u.s. government drop the ball here? >> i don't think the u.s. government dropped the ball. we moved as quickly as possible. >> so that's nbc's jo ling kent with that report. but before we move to ukraine, your response to how the white house is handling this? they call it operation fly formula, tweeting thanks to president biden for getting this much-needed formula to the babies that need it. but the unfortunate reality is, that's not what is happening

yet. >> i wish there had been planes a couple of months ago. this is so serious. my heart goes out to all of these parents who are dealing with this. if it had been a year ago, i could have been one of those parents. there's nothing worse than your baby screaming for milk and not being able to -- you just want to get it to them as quickly as possible. even a two-minute delay is painful. i can't imagine what these parents are going through. >> the white house was caught off guard here, and they're moving quickly, but not quickly enough. certainly, we have parents who do find formula are buying a lot of it. officials are trying to warn them against that, but who can blame them? we kept hearing from officials, as much as they're trumpeting formula is starting to arrive, it could be weeks and weeks before they're at full capacity. we want to turn now to ukraine where forces on the battlefield are taking a stand against russian troops intensifying efforts to capture

the donbas region. nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel has the latest. >> reporter: having failed to capture ukraine's capital kyiv, where this weekend ukrainians were inspecting the remains of the very russian vehicles that tried to invade their city, now objects of curiosity. after being driven back from ukraine's second largest city, kharkiv, russian troops now have their sights trained on the donbas. ukraine's eastern coal mining region, close to russia's border. and out here, the russians are making slow, destructive progress. lobbing unguided rockets and artillery into ukrainian villages to chip away territory from the government. russian forces have the center of donbas surrounded on three sides and are driving westward.

here is one of the donbas' only trauma hospitals that is still working. all of the women in this recovery room were wounded by russian artillery and survived that split second between whistle and bang. what happened to you, how did you end up in the hospital? "i just left my house when i heard something flied. i just grabbed the doorknob to my basement. that's the last thing i remember." in a nearby bed, vera, 95 years old, was in her bedroom. relatives were cooking outside. "sudden think there was an explosion. i felt a blow to my head and the windows and the door in the bedroom flew off." but reaching the towns and villages to evacuate ref joes and wounded is increasingly a challenge. this is as far as we've been able to advance for now. ukrainian security forces won't let us push further towards that

village. you can hear intense exchanges of artillery fire between ukrainian troops and russian forces. and it's been going on like this all morning. amid the exchanges of fire, two russian jets dropping flares, scream by at low altitude. the fighting is too intense for evacuations today. >> all right. joining us now, the chairman of the house armed services committee, congressman adam smith of washington state. very good to have you onset with us. you just joined a letter with colleagues urging the white house to swiftly above finland and sweden's application to join nato. do you see nato, its strength, its growth as a potential solution to this crisis? >> it certainly helps in eastern europe. it's a deterrent and we're worried about ukraine. we want to build the strength of support to go into ukraine. the fight is ongoing. it's good we're getting that much support.

we need to get more and be specific about what we get to them in terms of counterdrone and the stronger that alliance is, the better. the second piece is beyond ukraine. we know putin wants to reconstitute the soviet union. we need to deter them everywhere. finland and swede listen be a big part of that. >> the other sort of looming crisis putin's security and getting access to a port city in ukraine along the way. >> and you have a senior aide to president zelenskyy said ukraine will not stop until it recaptures all the territory it controlled in 1991. do you think congress would support the use of military force for ukraine to take back crimea and all of the donbas? >> that's a -- we would not support using u.s. troops going up against russians, which we're not doing now. but is the question is, would we

continue to provide them with the military and humanitarian support necessary to do that, i think the answer is yes. it's ukraine's decision where we go forward. now, we will also have conversations with them, because when you mention that, you're talking about crimea. and i think there will be ongoing dialogue of ukrainians. right now, we're not even close to pushing them back to prior to february. so that's the step right now. so we get to that larger, more difficult question. >> do you think the united states has the right to condition any of its aid to ukraine how that aid will be used? >> i did not say we should condition and i don't think we will condition this that regard. our mission and president biden has been very clear about this. we want to help ukraine every possible way we can while not going to war with russia that's the only condition, our determination whether or not it crosses a line that will bring us into that broader conflict. otherwise, we give ukraine what they need as quickly as they

can. >> congressman, i wanted to get your reaction. we heard from the president when he was asked about taiwan and said that the u.s. would involve themselves militarily if china moved on taiwan. the white house then sort of hedged that slightly, saying they would help taiwan defend itself. what are your thoughts on that? >> the number one thing is to put ourselves in a position to deter china so they don't attack in the first place. i think getting more arms to taiwan is crucial. we learned that lesson in ukraine. and china is learning from putin that it's not as easy as they might think it was, and that's a powerful deterrent. more weapons in taiwan is way to deter them. the other way is to build an alliance. less well reported is about biden's increasing economic cooperation with countries in

the reregion. we want to stop the shooting war. now, part of that is how much does china think we will do? i think that's what president biden was doing. it maintains the strategic ambiguity. >> chairman of the house armed services committee, congressman adam smith, thank you very much for joining us here on "morning joe." still ahead on "morning joe," voters are still -- votes are still being counted in pennsylvania's hotly contested gop senate primary. but former president trump continues to push his own narrative. what the chairwoman of the rnc had to say about that, when pushed by fox news. plus, my conversation with the president of the european commission. what she had to say about russia's invasion of ukraine. and the strengthening of nato. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. d walk fore♪ ( ♪♪ )

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the former president is suggesting that another republican who is supported by people who used to work in his administration is searching for votes or doing something that is -- that is untoward. >> well the pennsylvania supreme court ruled this year, and the rnc supports, that ballots should not be counted without a date. i think that's the law in pennsylvania. that should be followed. and we do not think that ballots without dates should be counted. because how do you know when they came? i think that's common sense and where the rnc and gop is. >> chairwoman ronna mcdaniel with that answer when asked about former president trump's truth social post. that's where he gets his information out these days, urging dr. oz to declare victory in pennsylvania before a final count. great. and the weekend saw even more posts from former president trump on his own social media platform on truth social.

he ranted about wall street -- "the wall street journal," twitter, and alabama congressman mo brooks who trump pulled an endorsement from, after brooks said republicans should move on from the 2020 election. but perhaps most alarming was the president's resharing of a post that was calling for or predicting a civil war in america. republican congressman adam kinzinger responded on twitter, any of my fellow republicans want to speak out now, or are we just wanting to get through just one more election first? meanwhile, florida governor ron desantis defeated donald trump in a straw poll. 38% voted for desantis, 32% for trump, and 7% for the former south carolina governor nikki

haley. wisconsin republicans were split on whether they want trump to run again. 43% he should, 32% said he should not. john helman, what do you make of all this? i'm hearing whispers in florida that they would much rather have republican party ron desantis than donald trump. >> well, there's no doubt, mika, one of the reasons what we're seeing right now in this primary season, and what's going to unfold between now and the midterm elections, why it matters, beyond donald trump's ego and our obsession with his power, i would say justifiable obsession, but our obsession with his power of the party, how this plays out, why does that matter apart from keeping score and does donald trump have sway any more? one of the reasons it matters, i think most republican voters aren't tuned into this, but republican activists or republican donors, the

republican establishment, taking the measure of trump's hold over the republican party is going to frame the context for a potential presidential run for him, and whether he decides it's worth doing, all of that is in the balance right now. so when you start to see things like straw polls are not a terribly meaningful thing, a couple hundred people in wisconsin. but when you see a guy like ron desantis, who has been the clear second choice favorite of republican voters, with gathering strength over the course of this year, when you see little signs like that, they're like canaries in a coal mine that republicans at least are looking at trump's influence on the party, the people who make the primary process run, they're looking at the way things are playing out right now for trump, taking the measure of his strength and the damage he might do for the party, and saying at least maybe, maybe we

should consider someone else. that frames for donald trump the decision he's going to make and tees up the questions the party will have after the elections, which will turn to the presidential election in 2024. >> again, we talked about it. there's a reason he brought up mo brooks. he endorsed mo brooks and mo brooks faded. he tried to destroy kemp as governor of georgia, and you have a lot of republicans rushing to georgia now, crossing donald trump to make sure that kemp wins, including mike pence, chris christie, and others. you look at what happened in nebraska. the ricketts political machine crushed donald trump in nebraska. in pennsylvania, they're going to have a recount now. two out of three voters in the republican primary in pennsylvania voted against donald trump's choice.

and now you go to this gop straw poll, and straw polls may not mean a lot, but they do in donald trump's party. if donald trump, in wisconsin, one of the key states, is losing to a florida governor, it doesn't matter what year it is, that shows politicians all over the country that trump's inevtaability. >> it's not going to have that much meaning. you see voters, they don't really care now who trump is endorsing because there's so much back and forth, and he isn't really landing the endorsements, so to speak. there is real momentum next with ron desantis, undeniable. there are republican voters who are excited about the prospect of someone new. and you know who else is also

excited? republican big donors. he would be a very safe bet to get behind, and he has plenty of trumpian pazazz as he has taken on the media. but they would have that without the crazy. so he's a very attractive choice for republicans with money to get behind in 2024. that has to make donald trump really fearful. >> as we mentioned, these issues are playing out right now in georgia, where voters head to the polls tomorrow. we'll get a live report from on the ground there in our next hour. plus, my interview with the president of the european commission. what she says about ukraine's future in europe and what russia's invasion means for the safety and security of the entire continent. "morning joe" is coming right back. coming right back

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i should start with a very famous quote -- and you can quote it better than i do -- he said without ukraine, russia ceases to be an empire. with ukraine subordinated, russia is an empire. it is very unfortunate that in the 21st century, there is still

people, there is still a leader, or the leader rather, who believes that empires can be rebuilt. and reestablished. this will never happen, and it will never happen because of the global citizenship of all of you, and because of the global effort to help ukraine to fight the evil. >> that was ukraine's ambassador to the united nations over the weekend. he lent his voice to the global citizen now summit where i hosted a panel with european commission president ursula von der leyen. also cisco's ceo chuck robins and the global citizens ceo hue evans. after that, i sat down for an interview with ursula von der leyen, and there was a lot to discuss, particularly russia's invasion of ukraine. madame president, thank you for joining us on "morning joe." >> it's a pleasure. thank you for having me.

>> i was talking to david ignatius yesterday. he knew my father really well. david was reminding me how pleased my father would be at some of the things that have happened at this moment in history. that is a strong europe. his dreams for a strong europe in a post soviet era are happening. >> it's wonderful to sit next to you. indeed, i knew your father very well. i was, and am in awe of his knowledge and his ability to analyze fantastic. and now to sit here with you is amazing. >> it's a drop. >> no, no, no. he would be so proud of you. >> i'm curious, this moment with such unity in europe hasn't come without a lot of pain. if you could talk about the ukrainian determination. you were there with that remarkable meeting in kyiv with

president zelenskyy. are you inspired, even motivated in your decisions by the determination and the will of the ukrainian people? >> absolutely. i was before easter in bucha, and i saw with my own eyes the body bags lined up. i saw the mass graves. i saw the destroyed houses, but also hospitals, kindergartens, it was awful. but at the same time, i saw the bravery of the ukrainian people and the hope they put into the idea we will make it as a sovereign and independent country. then i met with president zelenskyy and i'm constantly in touch, but i met him in kyiv, and his leadership is outstanding. so it is an enormous motivation, because they are not only fighting for their lives and their values, they are also fighting for our values. and therefore, we have to support them, and we are supporting them.

>> they argued they're fighting for the safety of the world. >> absolutely. they are fighting for autocracy with russia or democracy. is it the right of might that will be the defining factor? therefore, it's an existential crisis and existential fight, and it's wider than russia or ukraine. it matters to all of us. >> it leads us to the european union. we heard president macron's reservations about a quick admission for ukraine. can you assure president zelenskyy that they will be fast tracked being members of the eu? >> i think they belong in our european family. therefore, there is a certain -- that's correct, and needs to be a certain procedure to access the european union, because you have to meet some standards, defined standards. so there will be no short cuts. but what we can do, and this is important, i propose now to the

european counsel, and i discussed with president zelenskyy, that we establish a platform for the reconstruction of the country. we will need billions and billions of euros and dollars. and on this platform, with the reconstruction investment, we combine it with reforms, anti-corruption, independent of the judiciary. so that will pave the path toward the european union. this is something where he's also very much looking forward. and we need all to contribute with this platform. also our american friends and other like-minded countries and other financial institutions. >> you say no short cuts. that could be worrisome if you are a ukrainian right now. >> i want to reassure ukrainians, it's up to them. i give you an example. look at slovakia. at a certain point in time, slovakia decided we want to join

the european union. they worked so fast. it took them a few years and they were members of the european union. we have other candidates since decades they are candidates, but not advancing. okay, that is another story. so rather from being a candidate country, you then make it to join the european union is, of course, up to the ukrainians and we want to support them with all means. this is investment, but it's also advice for reforms. i saw how determined they are. they will show the same determination to bring their country forward. >> the concern is, what if it's not in the complete shape it's in, what if part of it has been taken away? there are members oh of the eu who are phobic to expansion. are you willing to fight this for ukraine? >> i think together with the ukrainians, we can convince

those who are skeptical and prove to them that the country is advancing and matching the standards, the necessities for being accepted. it is a path to go, but as always in life, it's a question whether you are determined and have the support. i think they really belong in our european family. >> i want to read from thomas friedman's article in "the new york times." he's a columnist, and this is a piece about president biden and sort of the hand that he's been dealt with. he writes this --

>> so my question to you is, do you believe america is back, american strength and commitment to its core values, and sit back for good, or just for now? >> i am convinced it is back for good. i must say, i've been a mber of the government of angela merkel for 14 years, so i dealt a lot with the united states, and now i'm president of the european commission. i've never experienced such a close and excellent cooperation with our american friends. and we would not have been capable to act so determined, to united if it hadn't been for the transatlantic unity. i think this is something, if i

look at it from the outside to the united states, i think it's also unifying factor for the congress, for example, for the whole country. because we have all understood this is about democracy in itself. this is about how we're going to live in the future, whether it's going to be the rule of law or whether we're going to have autocracies defining how the world should move on. and therefore, we have understood how important it is to work together. it is a daily fight, and you always have to redress and reinstall this motivation. but i'm willing to do it. >> so america's back? >> america is back, and it is an excellent cooperation that we have. this is the transatlantic unity -- you'll see it also with nato. now sweden and finland joining nato. this shows a lot of determination to stick together, to defend our values.

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did you ever imagine having your greatest impact at 63, in your 60s, and what is your advice to young women starting out? >> so of course i never imagined that. but what i always had were dream dreams. >> i love it. >> i see many young people in this audience. of course, there are few over 60 like me, but not so many. so i had dreams. and if i can give you one advice from my experience, it is never, ever let anybody make you a bad

conscience about what you're doing, never, ever. stick to your dreams. go for it. because only then it is possible to see that you're going much wider than you ever dreamt to be able to do that. what the over 50s or 60 years old are concerned, there is a very nice saying in germany that says, well, the young ones are running faster, but the older ones know the short cut. >> some sage advice from the president of the european commission, ursula von der leyen at the gc now summit over the weekend. an urgent gathering to defeat poverty and protect the planet. the summit brought together businesses, philanthropists and yes, citizens, to dig deep on solutions to some of the world's most pressing problems. among them, russia's aggression ineurope. and china's heavy handed

approach in asia. here's more of my conversation with european commission president ursula von der leyen. i want to ask about the sanctions that are taking place, because there is a lot of different levels of sanctions going on from different directions. eu countries continue to purchase billions of dollars of russian oil and gas. doesn't that undermine the sanctions from the west? and also fuel putin's war machine? >> we have issues now five packages of sanctions. the sixth one is on the table, and these sanctions are hitting the russian economy hard. and that's what they have to do. but you are also right, when this war, this invasion started, europe was heavily dependant on russian oil, gas, and coal. we got rid of the coal by now. we are in the process of winding down the use of oil.

and we have just issued last week a big package, to get rid of the dependency of russian gas. i have an agreement with president biden of lng gas that will replace 1/3 of the russian supply. the second part is energy saving. but the third part is the most important, this is accelerating the green transition. this is the heavy investment in renewable energy, wind, sun, hydropower, hydrogen. so this is the way to go. therefore, if there's anything president putin has achieved, it is that he lost his best client. europe will never come back, and that he pushed us, and that's good, into the direction of

renewable, clean energy. >> so vladamir putin has brought together nato as never before, has brought together the european union as never before, and has inspired us as never before the green revolution. >> yes, and i must say his brutal aggression must be a strategic failure. and this is what we're proving right now. >> so back then to an embargo. there's no chance of a full embargo, because wouldn't that be the most effective way to impose upon him that he has committed a strategic failure? >> well, what we always have to do is find the right balance between not hurting our economy too much, because this is the strongest leverage we have against this russian aggression, putin's aggression. i take the example of oil. where we have to be careful is

that if we would cut completely off of today from oil, he might be able to take the oil to the world market where the prices will increase and sell it for more. and that will fill his war chest. so we have to be very strategic in the way we approach that topic. and therefore, it is also so important that we convene the rest of the world to really make sure that we -- that we deplete his war chest. >> oh a full embargo would be years away. >> over time, what we do is get rid of the overall dependency of russian fossil fuels, all three of them, and never to go back again. >> so with that in mind, what have we -- you learned about the russian invasion, and its weaponization of its energy relationship with the eu? and does it set off in any way alarm bells about the eu's

economic relationship for dependency with china? >> so the fossil fuel dependency with russia is a unique one, if i may say so. and this is something where we are we are working hard now to get rid of it. i would take the bigger picture. i think for us in the democracies that we're standing up against the aggressor, the autocrat that is trying, who is trying to wipe out ukraine from the map and therefore others are watching very closely whether we will win that struggle, that battle. and therefore it is so important that we are successful and we are successful in making clear that this is not acceptable. this falling back into behavior of the last century. >> so, is the china issue sort of a little bit down the road br now clear now? i mean, what could and should

the u.s. and the e.u. but doing together to more effectively manage china's expansionist goals both economically and militarily. >> i think it is very important that we show the results that we're showing right now toward the russian aggression and invasion. with china, we have a three-fold approach. we're very clear that we say there are some topics that we are negotiating partners for example, fighting climate change. we have the same interest. we are economic competitors but we are systemic rivals when it comes for example to human rights issues. and on these topics, we're very clear in our approach. >> i want to be very clear on the potential for ukrainian membership into the e.u. because nato membership seems almost impossible. although, that was once said about sweden and finland. so perhaps things could change,

a little awkward now. is there any possibility for a special status or something quicker? because when you saw that the rules won't be changed, and it has to be a unanimous decision between all member states, it does still feel like an impossible. >> i think on the contrary we have a very good process and the rules are about standards. what you have achieved. and not about time. this is very important. you can be in a few years a full fledged member of european union or it could take you, as i said, decades. and therefore, ukraine has my full commitment to support them, to move forward. that is what they want. they also want to, you know, rise from the ashes of this horrible aggression they suffer from. and that is where we want to support them and this needs to be investment and reforms. that is why they elected president zelenskyy to really do

these reforms and now he has strong partners to move forward. >> another crisis on the horizon is food insecurity and it is directly related to the war in ukraine. what can the e.u. do, and what are your concerns about strategic ports that could be cut off and could then spawn a food crisis in the coming months, not just in europe but around the world. >> this is a deep concern. ukraine is the grainery of the world. and now with this war going on, russia is bombarding warehouses, it is blocking the export of ukrainian wheat through the black sea. it is blocking the ports. and countries desperately need this grain. the world food program, 50% of the world food program's grain is from ukraine. and that is what the european union is doing. we really need to support ukraine to bring -- to export

the grain that is there, 20 million tons are there already for export. it is not trivial. we have to take trucks and the train without the port. but we're doing everything possible. second, we have to step up our own production on wheat or grain to fill the rest of the world. and third, i think it is urgent now to map where the supplies are and to make sure that the wheat supplies go to the vulnerable countries like for example, lebanon, 70% of the wheat used in lebanon is from ukraine and 30% of the wheat used in egypt is from ukraine. and that is the reason why in june i'm going to convene a food summit with president alsisi in egypt to really discuss these topics and to develop an action plan. >> and finally, can you me what

you personally believe the world should take away from this brutal journey that the ukrainians are on right now. >> stand up for your democracy. that is the lesson i have learned. i was born in a peaceful environment. i grew up in a peaceful environment. and prosper october environment. but it is not granted. stand up for your democracy. care for your democracy. everybody could do it. >> and maybe stand up for other democracies. >> i democracy i'm talking about the democracy in the world. yes. stand up for it. >> madam president, thank you very much for your time. >> thank you. my conversation with the president of the european union commission ursela von der layen. and we'll go live to the white house for an update on the president's balancing act on the the world stage. plus a preview of those critical midterm primary races in battleground georgia. a live report is straight ahead

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. live look at san diego, this morning. welcome back to "morning joe." the fourth hour now. we're rolling right in. 9:00 a.m. here on the east coast, 6:00 a.m. out west. time to wake up. we've got a lot to get to this hour. this morning president biden declared the u.s. would intervene militarily if china were to invade taiwan. nbc's peter alexander is traveling with the president. he'll join us with his latest reporting on that. also developing news on the baby formula crisis as u.s. military planes carrying shipment from europe finally arrive. we'll get a live report from the white house on what the administration plans to do next. the crisis continues. and the latest