all week, on what has been a dark and difficult week for this country. we will, of course, have continuing coverage on that this weekend and next week. "morning joe" starts right now. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is friday, may 27th. this morning, a new account from police about the response to the school massacre in uvalde, texas. it is leading to new questions about why it took 1 hour for police to take down the killer, and why the doors of the school were unlocked. we're also hearing more stories from survivors and their parents, including a girl who smeared blood on herself and played dead to avoid getting shot. a fourth grader. also hearing from parents who said they rushed into the school themselves to save their children, not waiting for police. and the tragedy compounded for one family, unbearably. the husband of one of the two teachers killed in the shooting dies from a heart attack just days after the shooting in the

school. with us, we have the host of "way too early" and white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. special correspondent for bbc news, katty kay. and special contributor mike barnicle. we begin this morning with the questions about the police response to the shooting in uvalde. some of the key details provided by texas officials in the first 48 hours after the attack have turned out to be inaccurate. here is what has changed. texas officials first said the attacker exchanged gunfire with a school resource officer before entering the school. then later said the school resource officer engaged with the attacker but did not exchange gunfire. well, yesterday, officials now said, in fact, there was no school resource officer there at all, and the killer walked into the school through an unlocked door, unobstructed, and began firing. the amount of time the gunman spent outside before entering the school also has changed. we initially were told after he

shot his grandmother, he fled, crashed a truck outside of the school, and then ran inside. yesterday, officials said after crashing the truck, he got out, fired toward two witnesses who were at a funeral home across the street, then walked toward the school, climbed a fence to enter the parking lot of the school, and then began firing at the school building from the outside. officials say 12 minutes passed from the time he crashed to when he entered the school. he was outside that school for 12 minutes. also now a discrepancy about where the victims were found. it initially was reported the gunman spent an entire hour inside a single classroom and that all of the victims killed were inside that one classroom. nbc news now has learned from texas officials the victims were found in four classrooms. here's the new time line from texas officials about what happened after the gunman entered the school and began

shooting. >> four minutes later, local police department, uvalde police department, the independent school district police department are inside, making entry. they hear gunfire. they take rounds. they move back and get cover. that's where the suspect is at. officers don't make entry initially because of the gunfire they're receiving. but we have officers calling for additional resources. everybody that's in the area, tactical teams, we need equipment, we need specialty equipment, we need body armor, we need precision riflemen, negotiators. during this time that they're making those calls to bring in help to solve this problem and stop it immediately, they're

also evacuating personnel -- not personnel, students, teachers. >> the texas department of public safety then said an hour passed, an hour passed before a tactical team arrived and shot and killed the suspect. yesterday, nbc's kerry sanders asked what else police were doing in the hour to save lives. >> you say at one point when he was inside there, among the things you were attempting was negotiation. was he responding to negotiation? and in that period of time, was there continued gunfire? >> during that time, right now, according to the information we have, the majority of the gunfire was in the beginning. in the beginning. i say numerous, more than 25. i mean, it was a lot of gunfire in the beginning. during the negotiations, there wasn't much gunfire, other than trying to keep the officers at bay. but that could change

depending -- once we analyze the video. but right now, according to the information, we did not respond. >> joining us now from uvalde, texas, is nbc news correspondent sam brock. sam, it's really breathtaking. it's like we're talking about two different incidents, from the first reports from police about what happened at robb elementary school to what we heard yesterday. in a press conference that, by the way, actually raised more questions to be answered today. >> reporter: willie, good morning. look, i think it is worth noting the fact that this investigation is still being conducted. we're learning new pieces of information about what happened and when in this tragic sequence on tuesday. that said, what we have heard from local law enforcement officials here is not only confusing but utterly conflicting, to your point there, about this being breathtaking. all sorts of information that does not align, starting, willie, with what happened when the shooter arrived on campus. we know this, 11:28, he crashed his grandmother's truck after he

shot his grandmother, pulled out of the car with the long rifle, and fired bullets at nearby witnesses at a funeral home. then some 12 minutes later, actually did enter the school. but this is where it becomes extremely confusing. we heard a second ago from the regional director there that there was no school resource officer to confront him. however, 24 hours prior, the director of dps offered an account of that exchange where he says there was a courageous confrontation with the school resource officer. 24 hours later, that person no longer exists. that's question number one. also, how did he actually get into the building? they say it appears a door on the side of the building was unlocked. look, willie, you could double your security budget, which in uvalde county, they have done just that. they've doubled security at this school district, and, yet, if a door is left open, kids' lives will be compromised. it appears that that was a fatal consequence in this case. now, let's move over to what seems to be the most dissected aspect of all of this. at 11:44, four minutes after the

gunman entered robb elementary school, local law enforcement arrived. according to officials, they had to retreat under fire. there was an ar-15 style assault weapon the shooter was using. they left the building and waited for an hour. you heard the explanation there just a second ago, waiting for precision riflemen, tactical gear, special equipment, and negotiators. the president for the advocacy safety council, training on how to respond to school shooters, said that thinking is outdated basically since columbine. now, protocol is for law enforcement officers, whether it is one, three, or four, to enter the building immediately if there is an active shooter situation and try to neutralize the threat. yet, here, it took them until 12:47 for cbp to arrive and, quote, neutralize the threat. in that timeframe, we've seen the video, willie, parents standing outside and wondering, what is going on here? they were trying to rip down

fences, break into windows to get into that school building so they could do whatever possible to try to save their kids' lives. ultimately, 19 children between the ages of 8 and 10, fourth graders, murdered as an hour goes by. that, willie, is the heart of this investigation right now. so many questions surrounding that very issue. why do you have a texas law enforcement agency saying that protocol was to wait for this sort of more tactical assistance and special forces to alive to handle the situation when there were kids dying by the minute inside of that school? and where? you mentioned one classroom. originally, we were told all victims were in the one location, and now it appears there were four classrooms with teachers and kids affected. >> we're looking at this video of parents. we have firsthand accounts from parents who say they, in fact, did go into the school and get their kids. they just weren't going to wait anymore. sam, stay with us. i want to bring into our conversation nbc news

investigations correspondent tom winter. tom, boy, so many fictions told on the first day. we understand these things are complicated and sometimes that the details and the facts that first come out in this fog of war setting can be inaccurate, but there are some fundamental contradictions in the initial story that was told and to what it appears actually happened. the only one that really matters right now, and we can talk about whatever you want to get to, but did those kids die in that hour when the teams were standing outside, not going inside the building? did it cost the lives of children? >> we'll get back in a moment, willie, to one of the sloppiest public information responses i've ever seen to any mass incident like this. i've been on this beat approximately ten years. proving beyond that to your question, which is the central question, which is kids' lives. last night, in an interview last evening with cnn, one of the colleagues of that texas dps individual there said that there

were victims and there were kids they were able to get out of the classroom. that's consistent with our colleague, kerry sanders' reporting. now, you have to ask the natural question. if this shooter was killed earlier, would more children be alive today? i think that's the bottom line. there are serious questions about this, not just coming from you, myself, from people that are watching this, but also from the policing community. speaking of former chiefs yesterday who were trained -- excuse me -- trained people in this, that were responsible for officers that would go into these types of situations. i think they find the response to be extremely troubling. those are the types of words they're using with me. there is no school of thought currently in u.s. law enforcement, and this does go back to columbine as sam referenced, but particularly because now we've had so many of these incidents and so many of these incidents have been

studied as far as what went right and what went wrong. it is very clear here that the basic protocols of you get a couple officers together so you have somebody on your right, your left, somebody behind you, and you go in. i'm not sitting here saying today that i would look forward to going after somebody who has an ar-15, has already shot at and killed individuals, and you've got little kids in this instance, somebody who is incredibly depraved, and withholding some of the details out of sensitivity to the poor families going through this, willie. i'm not saying that i would jump up and be the first in line for that. but that is their job. that is the reality, unfortunately, that they have to deal with. they're dealing with somebody who has a high-powered weapon, a weapon that would hurt somebody like myself, 240 pounds, 6'3". one bullet could end me out of

that gun. let alone little kids. so they needed to get in there. they needed to confront the threat. somebody said to me yesterday, willie, it is not minutes that count, it is seconds that count. that is how dangerous this situation was for those little kids. and they say they have video of this. they've said a lot of things so far. for us not to have a timeline at this stage of the information, a preliminary one, is, frankly, shocking. >> tom, you talk about seconds and minutes. we know from this new official report that the gunman entered the school at 11:40 a.m., and the tactical team from border patrol arrived at 12:47. that's an hour and 7 minutes of his being in the school with those kids. many of the parents in uvalde are recounting what they saw outside of robb elementary during the attack. javier cazares, whose

jacklyn was killed, said, quote, they said they rushed in and all that. we didn't see that. he says he saw police officers evacuating children but grewage grew angry when officers didn't enter the school immediately. he said, quote, there were plenty of men armed to the teeth that could have gone in faster. this could have been over in a few minutes, end quote. he also claims it took 15 or 20 minutes for law enforcement officers to bring protective shields to enter the school. rose gomez, whose children are in second and third grade, told the "wall street journal," she drove 40 miles to the school after learning about the shooting. she saw parents encouraging police and other law enforcement, first politely and then with more urgency, as you can imagine, to enter the school. gomez told the "journal," u.s. marshalls put her in handcuffs, telling her she was being arrested for intervening in an

active investigation. she's a parent. she says local officers she knew convinced the marshals to set her free. gomez says she then got some distance from the crowd, jumped a fence, went inside the school, found her two children, and ran out of the building with them. video shared online showed distraught parents outside the school confronting law enforcement. other family members said they were detained and handcuffed, as well. u.s. marshals denied anyone was put in handcuffs outside of the school on tuesday. mike barnicle, you've covered a lot of these tragedies, unfortunately. you've watched police work up close for decades. you've watched how the stories of the incidents have been told. what did you make of what you saw yesterday? >> well, i'm in total agreement with tom winter's assessment. this is beyond shocking. sam's reporting on this is also beyond shocking.

your first instinct is to do the tiktok on the 12 minutes that we're talking about here. those 12 minutes from the time that he emerges from the crashed car, fires a couple of shots across the street toward the funeral home, and 12 -- and 11 1/2 minutes later, finally enters the school. so the tick-tock on that, willie, is critical. when was the first 911 call logged? what's the time and distance between arriving officers in the area, things like that? you know, you're hesitant to second-guess anyone being confronted by an ar-15 and a crazed gunman, but the 12 minutes' time, that is so critical in terms of what eventually happened. in all probability, sadly, realistically, once he enters the school, once he enters a classroom or classrooms, within 2, 3 minutes, the horrific deed is done. he has killed numerous numbers

of children. but the 12 minutes prior to that, prior to his entry into the school, i think, is going to take care of a lot of the issues that people have, a lot of the questions that have been raised. you know, you'd have to say, again, and this is repetitive off of what tom has just pointed out and what sam has reported, the confusion and the muddling accounts given to the public in a horrendous, horrendous crime like this is maddening. actually, it's beyond maddening. you have parents who have been waiting for some information for two, three days now. the first information that's been dispensed -- i won't say it is a lie, but it is horrifically misleading. we have to find out exactly what happened, who did what, and where they were. >> sam brock, this tragedy becomes even more unbearable if

you can imagine such a thing as you watch this morning. we learned yesterday that the husband of irma garcia, the fourth grade teacher who was killed in that classroom, who was found huddled over her children, trying to protect them from the bullets of an ar-15, suffered a heart attack and died. what more can you tell us about that? >> reporter: irma garcia, willie, taught at the school for 23 years. she was married to her high school sweetheart, joe, who you're looking at the on the left side of your screen right now. 24 years of marriage. 30 plus years of a lifelong love. they had four children together. the youngest of whom only 12 years old. according to a nephew, a family nephew, john martinez, he died of grief. he also relayed to us sort of the sequence he understood from family members, which is after laying down flowers at a memorial, joe garcia returned home, sat down in a chair, and within minutes, willie, fell

over. they tried to have chest compressions to see if they could bring him back. it didn't work. he died. so now, behind me, you have 21 of those crosses, memorials. that's ms. garcia's memorial there, her cross. and you have a second family member, after everything they've been through. she gave her life trying to protect students by shielding them with her body. now her husband, the love of her life, also passed away. i will leave you with this, however. there is a gofundme account that has been set up. their target for the family members, for those four kids, was $10,000. as of this morning, last check, $1.8 million has been generated, has been raised for that family to try to help them. but nothing, no amount of money or generosity across the country is going to fix the heartache they're experiencing right now. that is emblematic of what this entire community is going through at this point in time, willie. >> they have four children, incluing a 13-year-old who, five days ago, had their mother

and father with them, and now have neither because of this shooting. nbc's sam brock in uvalde, texas. we'll be back to you. thank you so much. we're hearing more of what happened inside robb elementary tuesday from students who survived the attack. here are some of their accounts. >> i hear shoot, shoot, the shooter. officer. ran past the restaurant, went back inside. >> what were you thinking as you were hiding in the bathroom for so long? >> i think i was just, like, trying to, like, be still. not move, talk. i was just crying, just don't make any noise. >> everybody was scared. we were all panicking because we didn't know what was really happening. what we saw were thousands of police and patrol coming into the cafeteria. we were all hiding behind a stage in the cafeteria when it

happened. >> i got really scared, and i didn't know who was hurt or dead. then we started looking around on facebook, and then i realized that all the people i knew were dead now. >> what do you mean, how many? >> i knew all of them. >> the aunt of another young girl, mia, who was in the classroom where the murders took place, says her niece resorted to drastic measures in order to stay alive. >> mia got some blood and put it on herself so she could pretend she was dead. she saw her friend in a pool of blood. she got blood and put it on herself. >> katty, what can you say? we're talking about third and fourth graders, little girls with lib bo ribbons in their ha

smearing the blood of classmates on their bodies, playing dead so a gunman with an ar-15 won't kill them, too. >> poor little girl. you know, all of those children who we just heard from, willie, traumatized beyond belief. that little girl is going to go home with incredibly complicated, terrified feelings. how these kids go back into a schoolroom come the fall, i just don't know. i mean, they're going to have their own grief with their friends they've lost. that little girl who said she knew all of them. her friends are gone. you know, her little group of friends have gone. they're all dealing with extraordinary levels of trauma. of course, the families with all of those questions. tom, one of the -- one of the things i don't know if you know it yet, is how frequently do they have active shooter drills in those police communities? when was the last one? because i imagine this is preparation that needs to be done regularly for it to be effective. it doesn't sound like it was effective in this case.

>> terrific question. it's one of the questions we're trying to get answered. you know, one of the things when i speak to these chiefs that have trained people on this is you have to continually train. the reason for that is you have to continually get it into your mindset, the mindset of the officers who are going to be out there, who are going to be responding. not talking about the s.w.a.t. officers. the person who is working at that school or the person who might be in that community. any one of those officers needs to be continually trained because you want to engrain in your head this idea of move to the shooter. the nypd has that phrase. i've been out with them when they've trained in their facility where they train for the active shooters. it is constantly, you have to move to the shooter. the exact thing that you don't want to do, the thing that your fight or flight in life is somebody is shooting, why do i want to go to that? but that's the type of thing that needs to constantly be drilled into you so you get that in your head as a police officer. these are from the people that train them, that are around this all day long, that study the

mass shootings, that say, that's what has to happen. continually train. get it into your head that seconds count. you have to do the exact thing your body and brain is telling you not to do. >> potential news conference from texas law enforcement today will only prompt more questions, trying to get a sense of what happened there and the delays and response is infuriating. we saw the response of the parents. tom, want to shift gears and talk about the shooter. have there been any updates, any progress in the investigation into the motive behind this? have we heard from his family at all? is there any sense as to what connection, if any, he has to that school and why he chose to make it a target? >> that is the ultimate question when it comes to his motive at this point. there's some indications they've been able to get into some of his electronic devices. we don't know the contents of what is contained inside the devices. clearly, you'd assume by now that the full web browser history of this individual, text messages, any sort of

communications, he was clearly communicating with somebody on facebook in the moments leading up to this shooting. who else has he been communicating with over the past six months, 12 months? so does it appear, based on the various interviews and discussions that the family members had with members of the press that anybody has any sort of sense as to why this school, why did this occur, and how did this all kind of come together? we're talking about information here. i know, you know, mike, you know this well from the boston marathon bombing. i re-watched ed davis, the former commissioner of the boston police last night, give an update on this. jonathan, you mentioned we'll get an update today. i think it is incredibly important for the law enforcement officials in texas to take a moment and regroup. it is understandable in the first few hours after an incident that things jumbled up and mixed up. pres presumably, you had officers with body cameras. they say there is a surveillance video system at the school of

some kind. that's what they said, that they have video of this. somebody going to be assigned to -- and depending on the body camera system -- they have this ability to say, get everybody's body cameras and let's start it at 11:28. they can view all the different views at the same time. that's the computer system. i've seen it myself. so they would have the ability of saying, okay, what happens when? what happens where? because the timing of this is so critical. what are the steps this person takes? it's time for real, concrete information. i understand, and i don't think anybody is asking for a where did this shell casing land, or how many inches was he from this or that? that is going to take months of time to do. maybe even longer. i think at this point, we need a very clear understanding of the timeline. we need a very clear understanding of what happened. you say you called for a negotiator, then kerry asks you the question, our colleague kerry sanders, and there is no discussion in the time period. what is the thinking there?

today, i would argue days ago, but today is the day for real answers. they have to get this right. their credibility going forward has been severely questioned at this point. they really have this press conference to try to reestablish it. >> tom, as you point out, we understand how difficult the job is. we understand the courage it takes to walk up on a shooter. but it is the job. >> right. >> my question to you so, this is a school district -- we're talking about hardening schools -- who poured money into school safety. has its own police force putting physical barriers up and fencing and all the rest of the precautions. beyond the precautions that many schools even took after sandy hook. so my question about the school resource officer is was there ever a school resource officer at this particular school? we know now that there wasn't one that day, despite what we were took at the outset. do they have school resource officers in this district? >> they do in this district. it has its own police force, if you will. they doubled their budget from

2017, $240,000. they installed an alarm system which, based on their documents, appears to be for more of an-after hours. making sure nobody is getting into the building when it is not occupied. but i think that's the question. you know, the other question i would have is, so you know that -- excuse me -- the day of the shooting, tuesday, was an awards day. they were coming to the end of the school year. you'll have parents coming in and out. you're going to have people coming in and out of the school. who is coming in and out of the school? you're not going to have the normal, perhaps, security setup that you would have. in light of that, how come you don't have an officer there? i mean, the very horrible reality of this is that the school shootings have come from being an aberration to being something we have to deal with every single school year. you know, frankly, myself and my colleagues here, we know when schools are back in session.

in the summertime, don't need to be told because we know the active shooter calls start coming in to us and every other news organization starting mid-august. that's the sad reality of where we are now. knowing that, that seems to me to be a key question, because why on a day when you know you'll have a lot of people coming in and out of the school, presumably parents there for all the wonderful reasons they should be there, that seems like a day you want to have a little extra protection on campus. >> again, the first account from authorities was that the shooter was confronted by a school resource officer, that two other local police officers were on the scene. now we know he was not confronted by anybody. he walked around the school for 12 minutes before entering the school through an unlocked door, spending more than an hour inside before he was killed. nbc news investigations correspondent tom winter with the latest details on this. thanks so much. still ahead this morning, a bipartisan group of lawmakers holds initial talks about a path

forward on gun safety legislation. what are they talking about, though, and will it get done? we have the latest on those efforts. and the push by mitch mcconnell to get one of his republican colleagues involved in the conversation. plus, texas governor greg abbott answers the question about whether he will attend the nra convention in houston. we'll let you know whether he'll be there ahead. also the parkland school shooting in 2018, former new york city police commissioner bill bratton said the answer to gun violence is not more guns. he'll be our guest this morning. you're watching "morning joe" on a friday morning. we'll be right back. "morning jon a friday morning a friday morning we'll be right back. and a truly impressive synthesizer collection. and you can find her right now (lepsi?) on upwork.com (lepsi.) when the world is your workforce, finding rfect project manager, designer, developer, or whomever you may need...

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legislation. democratic senator chris murphy of connecticut spearheading the effort, along with senator richard blumenthal. they were heavily involved in the fail evidence forts to pass background check legislation in the wake of the shooting at sandy hook in their state of connecticut a decade ago. at the meeting yesterday, democrats kyrsten sinema, martin heinrich, and more. senator bill cassidy joined by phone. mitch mcconnell encouraged senator john cornyn to meet with the group. he plans to keep in touch with democrats and hopes lawmakers can reach that deal that can, quote, actually pass and become law, rather than scoring points back and forth. joining us now, co-founder and ceo of "axios," jim vandehei. good morning. we heard from senator manchin yesterday. he said this time feels different. he said that after parkland, as

well. we've heard that refrain from many people, especially after sandy hook. is there any reason to believe that this time is different? are there votes? are the republican senators willing to look, for example, at universal background checks, which is a 90/10 issue in this country? >> yeah. i mean, maybe this is a little bit of hope. we should have some perspective in terms of what they are talking about. this is a massive, new gun control legislation. what they're talking about is basically two pieces. one is some incentives for states to enact red flag laws, which basically allow either families or judges in many of these states to intervene when people feel someone is a threat to themselves and others. even there, they're not talking about a mandate for every state to do this. current talks about providing incentives, maybe grants to states to make sure they have effective red flag laws. the background checks would be substantive because it'd extend the background check you'd get at an authorized gun dealership.

it'd extend it to other places like online or gun shows. those are the two main components. they're not getting at the weapons that are being used or the ability for most people in most states to easily buy these weapons. but there is some progress. i think the fact that mitch mcconnell has john cornyn in there is meaningful. he represents the leadership. you have toomey, manchin, and others who are in close conversation with people, saying it does feel different. they do feel like they can get something done. as you know, willie, the only way to really get something done is move quickly. every day that passes after a big moment, a tragic moment like this, means there's less and less of a chance of something substantive getting done. the most likely outcome is maybe they get a small bill done this year, then it becomes a big topic of the election again. i think democrats want a big debate on this. they feel that a lot of the provisions they support are supported by most of the country. they're happy to have that debate, just happy to have the debate on abortion.

likely, these will be police political topics more than solutions. >> the urgency is why so many democrats were angry. the senate is out on recess next week. of course, that is in part because it gives senators some time to work on a deal. we'll see if that comes to be. from the white house, they're look at executive orders. they can maybe do something on ghost guns, but it's probably not going to come. as we talked about on the show yesterday, the nra, which, of course, is having its convention in houston this weekend, not 300 miles from the massacre scene, is a diminished political figure. it doesn't quite have the influence and doesn't have the political expenditures in recent cycles like it has before. republicans you've been talking to this week tell us, why are they still so afraid of the nra? >> i think you're right. i think the nra, people give it way too much credit.

it is a shell of its former self. it went through terrible management, terrible scandal, and as an organization doesn't have the juice it wasn't had. republicans are responding to their base. they feel the base doesn't like any effort by the federal government to tell any gun owner what they can and cannot do in terms of buying a weapon. they feel that is where their party is. republican politicians, by the way, respond much more to their base than they do to the big institutions. they feel they're not going to pay a political price. i think a lot of them believe authentically that guns aren't the issue. they feel it is mental illness, sort of the depression and madness that flows out from social media. so you take those two, and they constantly use that as the justification and explanation for why they oppose these laws. you know, when you talk to them, they also express this toss your hands up hopelessness. there's already 400 million

weapons in the united states. more weapons than people. will the gun laws curtail violence which is flowing often from kids who are getting terribly depressed? men often on social media, then taking and doing these horrific acts. so i don't think you're going to see the republican party move much on this topic. you might see them move in very, very small ways, like we were discussing on capitol hill, to do small things around red flags or background checks. red flag laws, we have places like florida that are conservative and adopted their own version of it. we have 19 states that have some version of a red or yellow flag law. so you could see a grant which i think susan collins of maine proposed. maybe incentives to get other states to follow through. then do it effectively. certainly, each one of the pieces is better than nothing. that's what you're hearing from senator myrrhty. murphy.

he's saying, i'll compromise and take the smallest piece to show we've done something. every time there is a shooter, people say we'll do something, and they do nothing. certainly, it is awful for the families to go through this tragedy. >> for now, that small bipartisan group is talking, just talking. we'll see if they do anything beyond that. jim vandehei of axios, thank you so much. we always appreciate it. coming up next, the nra, as jim mentioned, is going forward with its convention this weekend in houston. guns will not be allowed in the building. it's not because of the recent shootings. plus, louisiana senator bill cassidy was asked why ar-15 style rifles should be legal. his answer may surprise you. we'll play that ahead. we're back in a moment. that ah. that ah. we're back in a moment before discovering nexium 24hr to treat her frequent heartburn... that ah. we're back in a moment

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as the community of uvalde, texas, prepares for the funerals of 21 victims at robb elementary school, funerals are being held for the ten people gunned down at a grocery store in buffalo, new york, less than two weeks ago. joining us now, host of "politics nation" and president of the national action network, the reverend al sharpton. he has attended and preached many of those funerals in buffalo and will do so again today. also with us, marissa rene lee. she worked in the obama administration and is author of "grief is love, living with loss." good morning to you both. great to have you. rev, i want to begin with you. as we look at the names and ages of these kids in uvalde, texas, i'm going back and looking at the names and ages of the ten victims of that racist shooting in buffalo. you're going to preach the funeral of an 86-year-old this weekend. coming up today, a 62-year-old who was at the tops supermarket

with her fiance. he was in a different aisle, and she was killed while shopping. what do you say to the families? what will you say to the congregation? how do you bring any measure of peace? >> it is very difficult because you're dealing with people that have to deal with things that does not make sense and that they did not expect. so they could not have any preparation. what you have to challenge them to do is to really, in the memory of their loved one, try to raise this to have meaning. it is very difficult to have meaning in the middle of suffering, but that is what life presents to us. so what i'll say to the talley family in my eulogy today, as well as tomorrow to the whitfield family, is we cannot kill their legacy because they were killed by a racist who took their life. we must live the life that they would want us to live and raise the ideas and the kinds of

things we want society to become in their name. we must make good out of bad, as painful and difficult as that may be. >> marissa, your beautiful, heartbreaking book is "grief is love." it details your own loss and also speaks more broadly to the loss that we all feel at times in our lives, sometimes as a country, as we're feeling right now. it feels so heavy. it feels difficult to get up and keep going. what do you say to people watching today who are really feeling the weight, especially in these last two weeks of these two shootings? >> i want to tell people that it's normal. you know, we need to give ourselves permission to grieve in this moment. we didn't even have an opportunity to fully process the tragedy in buffalo before this shooting happened this week in texas. let's not forget, we just crossed 1 million lives lost to covid. you know, we are going through a lot as a country, and i think it's okay if you're feeling

heavy. it's okay if you're feeling overwhelmed or sad or angry. give yourself permission to have those feelings because you need to acknowledge all that's been lost. we cannot heal from that which we do not acknowledge. so give yourself permission to grieve, and let that grief, let that anger transition into hope that ultimately leads to action. >> marissa, mike barnicle has one for you. mike? >> marissa, could you please speak to the grip that grief has on people? it is, in many, many cases, never ending. and how you learn to live with that on a daily basis. i'm sure it recedes after a bit, but it is eternal. >> yeah. i define grief in "grief is love" as the repeated experience of learning to live in the midst of a significant loss. you know, i lost my mom over 14

years ago. i'm never going to forget that i had a mom, that i shared this amazing, unconditional love relationship with this woman. and so, you know, every day, different weeks, different holidays, it is a recalibration process. figuring out what you need in order to accommodate for your loss. it is not about getting over it. it's not about moving on. it's about treating yourself with love and compassion and grace as you learn what it is you need to be okay day-to-day, without the person you love. >> stories of families from sandy hook who have reached out to other parents when there have been subsequent school shootings. i'm wondering, you know, in your conversations with the families from buffalo, just how much what happened in uvalde then affected them again. i mean, you know, you get hit, in a sense, by a double hit. they are just reeling from what

has happened in their own community, and they get the news this has happened across the country to a group of children. >> i have talked to a couple of the buffalo families, and i'm sure i'll be talking to more today and tomorrow. and it only deepens their pain. it also adds to being in this storm of violence, feeling even more lost. they're dealing with theirs, and now they're seeing more. it's like the winds are increasing rather than calming. and, somehow, they do -- i'm going to counsel them to reach out to each other. one of the things that i've seen is that when we saw mothers of police brutality victims form their own group, mothers of the movement, they kind of help each other. some of them lost children 20 years ago, but they help each other get through this because only they know each other's pain. you know, i might eulogize their funerals of their loved ones and lead the marches, but they know the pain that i don't know.

i know how i felt when my mother died ten years ago, but she didn't die in the kind of violence that their children died in. and i hope somehow that we can put these families together because that's what mothers of the movement did around the police brutality situation. they're still together because there's a bonding. it's a club, philonise floyd, george floyd's brother said it is a club no one wants to join, but once you're in there, you understand each other and can help strengthen each other to get through this. >> important conversation about grief and compassion. rev, want to switch to policy for a second. we don't know much about the motive of this shooting in texas. we know the one in buffalo fueled by a white supremacist ideology. i know in the wake of that shooting, you and other civil rights groups and leaders called for some sort of summit with the white house. this was with biden. you talk about discouraging white supremacy and also give up

-- guns, which would apply to texas, as well. you didn't hear much from the administration. where do things stand? >> we have had conversations with senior white house officials around this proposed summit. jonathan greenblatt of the antidefamation league, i, and others have been involved in those conversations. the white house has not said yes, but they're looking very seriously at it. when i was at the white house a couple days ago for president biden and vice president harris' ceremony around the police executive order he signed, i mentioned it to him briefly. he is aware. his senior staff is looking into it. so i think we may get it, but i can't say that we're sure. i think it is even more necessary. and when we're hearing what we're hearing now, about what the law enforcement reaction was and what they did and maybe did not do in texas, i think it is

even more the reason we need to have a summit, to explore all of these things. because i think it is important. it is terrible, as marisa said, to have what we're looking at in buffalo, what we're looking at in texas. it is even worse when the grieving families have to look and say, could this have been avoided? could my child have been the one or two that would have been saved if the police operated quicker, if that is what happened? that's why we need to sit down and look at these things seriously. >> those are the painful questions we're asking this morning. reverend al sharpton shuttling between the white house and now back up to buffalo, where he'll deliver euloies for victims. >> i'll preach from marisa's book. >> you know what, a lot of people need to read that book right now. no joke, rev. >> absolutely. >> we'll be watching "politics nation" this weekend on msnbc. marisa renee lee, thank you, as

well. "grief is love: living with loss." it is beautiful and essential. thank you for being here. appreciate it. still ahead, authorities in texas are trying to clear up the timeline for tuesday's attack, and they have a lot of clearing up to do. some of the basic facts, though, remain unclear after the shooting. we'll lay out the latest account of what happened in uvalde. we also will be joined by council member from that city who was outside the school as the attack unfolded. "morning joe" is coming right back. g right g right backke you to a dark place. latuda could make a real difference in your symptoms. latuda was proven to significantly reduce bipolar depression symptoms and in clinical studies, had no substantial impact on weight. this is where i want to be. call your doctor about sudden behavior changes or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. report fever, confusion, stiff or uncontrollable muscle movements,

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call the barnes firm now when that car hit my motorcycle, yoyou ght t beurprpris insurance wasn't fair. so i called the barnes firm, it was the best call i could've made. call the barnes firm now, and find out what your case could be worth. ♪ call one eight hundred, eight million it is 6:58 in the morning at the white house. as you can see, the flag still at half-staff on this friday morning. welcome back to "morning joe." friday, may 27th. three days now after that horrific attack in uvalde. many questions remain unanswered, including why the doors of the school were unlocked. why did police use the outdated tactic of waiting for backup, leaving the gunman inside the school with his victims for one

hour? and why have the details of this horrific incident changed so much? senior national correspondent tom llamas has uvalde. >> reporter: texas police facing reporters from around the world, trying to clarify the timeline of tuesday's massacre. but their answers raising even more questions. >> we're still grabbing a lot of information. >> reporter: authorities say the gunman crashed his grandmother's truck at 11:28 a.m. witnesses report seeing him carrying a long gun and a bag. he fired at two people outside of a funeral home across the street before heading to the elementary school. at 11:30, the first 911 call came in. this video shows the gunman dressed in black, long gun in hand, entering the school at 11:40. the doors appeared to be unlocked. as for whether or not anyone tried to stop him from entering, director of the texas department of public safety said this.

>> there was a brave school district resource officer that approached him, engaged him at that time. there was not -- gunfire was not exchanged. >> reporter: but the department telling me this. was there a school officer on campus, and was that school officer armed? because that's what we've been told. >> so it at this time, no, no. there was not an officer readily available, armed. no. >> was there an officer? >> no. >> why? >> nothing -- i can't answer that yet. i'll circle back with you. >> there is a 12-minute gap from when he crashes his truck to when he enters the school. 12 minutes. what happened in that 12 minutes? >> you have to understand, 11:30 is the information we have at this point. we got a crash and a man with a gun. then you have responding officers. that's the information we have. >> reporter: 4 minutes after the

shooter entered, police arrived at 11:44. the shooter fired at them, so officers retreated and called for special equipment. >> we need riflemen, negotiators. they're also evacuating personnel, students, teachers. >> reporter: a tactical team arrived at 12:47. >> u.s. border patrol tactical teams arrive. they make entry, shoot and kill the suspect. >> reporter: police acknowledging the shooter was in the classroom for an hour before they were able to take him out. in that time, 19 children were shot and killed, along with two of their teachers. >> could anybody have gotten there sooner? you have to understand, small town. >> reporter: video taken after the shooting rampage shows loved ones being restrained outside the school. unable to get to the children, begging officers there to charge in. >> nbc's tom llamas reporting

from uvalde. let's get more on the several major discrepanies in what texas officials first said about the response and what we learned since then. national security and intelligence correspondence ken dilanian joins us now. ken, i know you were watching that news conference yesterday the way i was, with your jaw open it at the discrepancies, the questions that remained unanswered, and very fundamental questions, like, was there a school resource officer there? he told us he was there, that he exchanged gunfire, then that he confronted the shooter and didn't exchange gunfire, and then yesterday saying there was no school resource officer at all. what do you make of the briefing, and what questions do you still have this morning? >> it's really astonishing, willie. let's remember, the texas department of public safety, which is conducting the briefings, they did not respond to this incident. their whole job here was to investigate and find out what happened and tell the public. they've really been a font of

misinformation, including from the head of the agency, who sat next to the governor of the state and told the world in a very confident voice that there was a school resource officer who encountered the subject as he came into the school. then yesterday, we learned that that person didn't exist. there was no such school resource officer. then we learn other, new information, that the shooter actually exited his grandmother's truck, which he crashed outside the school, then fired shots at onlookers across the street. and then essentially was lingering outside the school for 12 minutes, firing shots, before he entered through an unlocked door, also new information, unimpeded, unobstructed, nobody confronted him. then we learned in this new -- and, again, all this information is coming from the same agency that has provided misinformation. we should take it all with a grain of salt. but according to the latest account, some local police officers, uvalde police officers, immediately rushed in, which is what the doctrine of

mass shooting says they should do. they were met with a hail of gunfire from the 18-year-old with an assault rifle, ar-15, a weapon of war. they were armed, presumably, with handguns. a couple were shot and wounded, the police are saying. victor escalone said they made entry, didn't make entry, retreated. bottom line, they were out-gunned, treated, then we have this mystery. we have this decision by the police to wait 60 minutes for a border patrol tactical team. there's a lot we don't know and don't understand about that, so we should be a little careful. there were police inside the school, we were told, evacuating children, in other parts of the school. but the account is, somehow, the gunman had barricaded himself. they use the word "barricade." it was two adjoining classrooms. now we're learning by reporting from pete williams that dead children were found in four separate classrooms.

that's a thing we don't understand. but, willie, as you know, the doctrine for police response to mass shootings really changed after columbine. the rule now is go in with whatever force you can. this is a policy from the texas police chief association. a manual says the first two to four officers should form a team and immediately enter the building. that's what they did initially. then, for whatever reason, they didn't follow up with that. they waited for essentially federal agents, group of border patrol and other police who formed a team, a stack as they put it, went in with a ballistic shield in front, took fire from the shooter. incredible act of bravery. and killed the shooter. there were local police officers involved in that, we're told. these videos we're seeing and the accounts of parents zree screaming for the police to go in while they were standing outside, that has to be explained, willie. there is just no good explanation for why they waited 60 minutes when the doctrine

calls for them to go in immediately. >> so if we look at the timeline, 11:40 a.m., the gunman enters the school. 11:40 a.m. the tactical team from border patrol arrives at 12:47 p.m., an hour and seven minutes. this is the heart of the question. this is the heart of the matter. did that hour lost the lives of children and teachers inside that school? do we have any sense from information from law enforcement about how this gunman proceeded once he entered the school? do we know if this delay in entering the school and confronting the gunman cost lives? >> it's a horrific thing to even have to ask, willie. the answer is we don't know for sure, obviously, but kerry sanders, our colleague from nbc news, reported yesterday that he was speaking to families. he was told at least one child that they knew about was understand some bodies. i apologize for even having to talk about this.

but had survived the shooting, was alive when the police went in there. then later died in the hospital. so you have to wonder about that person, that little baby, and some of the other ones. you know, in medical trauma care, military medical care, they call it the golden hour. you have to get to the wounded, you know, within the golden hour to get them first aid and medical aid and surgery. obviously, that could not happen in this case. it didn't happen. it raises a lot of questions. we won't know for a while, definitively, and we may never know, but it certainly is an important question to ask, willie. >> ken, can you talk about that 12 minutes before the shooter entered the school? mike was raising it earlier. will we get a timeline on when the first call might have gone in? accounts have shifted so much, we don't know exactly what's right and what's not right. but there was initial reporting that the gunman's grandmother

had actually called into 911. do you think we'll get a timeline of the 12 minutes and what might have been done and what opportunities were missed in that period? >> i do, katty. eventually, we'll get one. 911 calls are a matter of public record. they are recorded. there's even calls now for the fbi to come in and conduct an independent investigation, to take it over from the texas department of public safety. but you're right, there was no mention by that texas official yesterday of any 911 call from the grandmother. he did say that a -- the first 911 call about the shooter outside the school came in about 11:30, 2 minutes after he is believed to have arrived. that would have meant there was a 10-minute delay between that call and the time the local police first arrived, which is perplexing. their police station is about a mile down the road. and another important thing to consider about the local police response is, uvalde has a

s.w.a.t. team. you can go on facebook now, and you'll see a post with about 12 officers, well-armed, standing from a couple years ago, when they said they had visited local schools and other buildings to get the lay of the land, so they could better respond to emergency situations. we have heard nothing about whether that s.w.a.t. team responded. we know no one responded within the first hour, other than the official patrol officers who went in. so that's another mystery. where was the uvalde s.w.a.t. team? to answer your question, i do believe we will eventually get a timeline. you know, in other ins tents incidents i've covered, we've had that timeline now. it is three days after the incident. we should have it. >> more questions today. nbc's ken dilanian, thank you for your reporting. we'll be back to you. joining us live from outside of robb elementary school in uvalde, texas, is city council member, eduardo zimora. thank you so much for taking some time with us this morning. my goodness, with each story we

hear about these family, about these children, about these teachers, our heart brecks a breaks a little more. the country has its eyes on you, hearts with you. what can you tell us about your community that's grieving, and what peace can you possibly bring to these families? >> yes. again, good morning. we're heartbroken. everybody in the community is in pain right now. we're asking for the country, everybody to pray for us. pray for our healing. what else can i say? we're shocked. still shocked. we're just -- you know, just like everybody else, asking all these why questions. why, why? we could have done this, and why didn't they do that? so, you know, those are questions, hopefully, that the investigation will answer for

everybody. maybe we can find some peace and go on with our lives. >> mr. zamora, you're plugged into law enforcement in a way that none of us is. what can you tell us from your conversations with officers there about that response? i know you probably just heard our conversation about that delay of an hour. we know the brave local officers did go in initially. they were clearly outgunned and had to fall back and wait for the tactical team. what are you hearing from police in uvalde? >> i'm not going to -- it's under -- i mean, they're investigating that. but i was on the scene maybe 11:45, 11:48, that i got in front of the school. there was already people running into the building. we were just trying to control the crowd, trying to control the parents, trying to calm them down, you know? and i was there assisting, you

know, border patrol. volunteer firemen were out there trying to control and help out. it was all out force to contain this individual and -- you know, i'm a parent, a grandparent. i know the feeling. i had nieces in that school. it's horrific. it's horrific. nobody can imagine what happened. you know, and i just tell everybody, just calm down. let's take a step back and see. we need to see what happened. we need to know what happened. we're not going to be happy until we know what happened. so -- >> what did you see -- >> -- and -- >> i'm sorry. didn't mean to interrupt you. i wanted to ask you what you saw with some of the parents. presumably, it is a tight-knit community. not a huge town. you knew many of them. we saw some of the videos. the frustration from the parents, obviously the desperation that any of us would feel, knowing our child was

inside that building. did you see some of them? we heard a firsthand account last night of one of them actually did find her way into the building and get her kids out. what were the parents doing? were they able to get through the police and go inside? >> like i said, i got here, you know, 11:45, 11:48. by the time i got to the street in front of the school. what happened before that, i can't comment. i don't know. i know some -- when i got here, there was police, fire, everybody was here. dps troopers. we were trying to control the families, you know, try not to make it worse of a situation as possible. but what i saw was, i mean, do police were doing, i guess, their best. our question is, could they have done better? yes. you know, what happened inside? i couldn't see inside the building, so i couldn't tell you. if that happened with that parent getting her/his child

out, you know, i couldn't comment on that. >> as you stood out there, mr. zamora, and you saw those officers go in initially, it sounds like you were there just minutes after the gunman entered the building when the first 911 calls came in. did it feel like a long time until the tactical units arrived to get into the building? >> like i said, i mean, i was trying to control -- they're my friends. you know, they're my friends. all the parents that were there, majority of them, i know them. i hugged them. i said, "everything will be okay." i tried to comfort them. "hey, you know, we need to stay back." but what i would see, you know, in there was, you know, the police were doing their job. that's all i got -- i mean, it's difficult. it's difficult. >> you're preparing for the funerals of 19 beautiful children. we have seen their faces on our screens for the last three days.

we've heard their stories. the funeral of two brave teachers who huddled around those kids and tried to shield them from the bullets of a gunman. what are you saying, mr. zamora, to be families? what are you saying to the members of the community that you've lived in for so long, about how you move forward? >> what do i say to move forward? there's nothing. i mean, you can't say nothing. you've just got to hug them. you have to, you know, pray with them. life goes on. life goes on. it's going to be a long healing process for this community. we just need to have some peace, you know, i guess some down time with the family. as far as the city, we're getting everything that we can help them with, with support with counseling, everything. they need something, they can reach out to the city. we're going to make sure that they get that need, you know --

that help they need. >> please know, mr. zamora, the hearts and the prayers and the thoughts of the country are headed in your direction, to uvalde, texas. we so appreciate your time this morning in a very difficult time. uvalde city councilman ererardo zamora, thank you very much, sir. >> thank you. still ahead this morning, the republican congressman whose district includes uvalde, texas, is pressed repeatedly about why 18-year-olds can legally purchase ar-15s and otherrifles. we'll show you the exchange and how he dodged the question. plus, the company that manufactured the gun used in this week's school shooting blasted for an ad posted days before the attack. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. g "morning " g "morning " we'll be right back.

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annual convention in houston. about a 4-hour drive east from uvalde. that organization facing criticism in the aftermath of the school shooting. nbc news senior washington correspondent hallie jackson has made her way to houston and joins us now live. hallie, good morning. >> reporter: hey, willie, good morning to you. a couple updates for you this morning. overnight, we found out that texas governor greg abbott, who was supposed to speak in person, will not be. instead, he will be in uvalde for a news conference. here in houston, they are bracing for protests outside this convention center, with gun reform advocates set to bring their message to the doorstep. beto o'rourke, who is running for governor, is set to join the protests. heavy police presence expected. the national rifle association kicks off its annual convention today in houston. some 300 miles from uvalde,

where 19 children and 2 teachers were murdered at the hands of a gunman. some nra convention attendees say they're not deterred. >> i don't think that's going to influence people on their opinions just because the shooting happened. >> reporter: headlining the convention, former president donald trump, promising to deliver what he calls an important address. in keeping with secret service protocol, firearms and other weapons will be banned during the former president's speech. texas governor greg abbott was initially supposed to attend, but overnight, his spokesperson tells nbc news he will instead return to uvalde for a news conference and send a prerecorded message to the nra convention. other republicans, like senator ted cruz, who is from texas, is expected to speak. cruz earlier pressed by sky news on his opposition to new gun laws. >> if you want to stop violent crime, the proposals the democrats have, none of them would have stopped this. >> why does this only happen in your country?

i really think that's what many people around the world just -- they cannot fathom. why only in america? why is this american exceptionalism so awful? >> i'm sorry you think american exceptionalism is awful? >> sorry you think that. you have your agenda. god love you. >> reporter: congressman crenshaw pulled out, citing scheduling conflicts. mitch mcconnell tells cnn they're hopeful to come up with a bipartisan solution to this awful massacre. the nra says we will reflect on the events, pray for the victims, and redouble our commitment to making schools secure. in texas, nra critics say their message to the group is simple. >> get out of houston. don't come back. what your rhetoric does inspires hate. >> reporter: as for the city of

houston here, the democratic mayor has said he didn't feel like he had the legal right to be able to try to cancel the nra convention. we're looking to this weekend, the nra concert, with a number of musicians. >> reporter: lee greenwood says he's not going to appear out of respect of those mourning the lives lost. and don mcclain, "american pie," said it would have been disrespectful and hurtful if he were to perform. >> the convention goes on. nbc's hallie jackson in houston this morning. thank you so much. coming up, we will be joined by a pair of former high-ranking police officials. former police commissioner for new york city and boston, bill bratton, and retired seattle police chief carmen best, with their evaluations of how law enforcement handled this shooting and some of the major questions being raised about the timeline this morning. we'll be right back on "morning joe." this morning. we'll be right back on "morning we'll be right back on "morning joe.

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6:28 in the morning as the sun comes up over dallas on this friday morning. the company that made the rifle used in tuesday's school shooting is facing backlash for an ad it posted to social media just one week before that shooting. the ad from georgia-based daniel defense features a toddler holding a similar weapon with the caption, "train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it." that was posted on twitter on may 16th, the day the gunman in the attack turned 18, coincidentally. a spokesman for the manufacturer said the company will not attend the nra event in houston this weekend due, it says, to the horrifying tragedy in uvalde, texas. but one of our products was criminally misused. nbc's garrett haake interviewed republican congressman gonzalez, who represents the district that includes uvalde. garrett pressed him repeatedly about why 18-year-olds should be allowed to purchase ar-style

rifles. here's some of the exchange. >> reporter: why in texas can you buy an a are,-15 when you're 18 years old? you can't buy a beer at 18. why do you need an assault rifle? >> part of the conversation, we have to be unified. this country is not unified. >> reporter: my original question, why does an 18-year-old in texas need to be able to buy an assault rifle? >> the reality is this isn't a new topic. there has been a lot of legislation that has been out there. >> reporter: you haven't answered my question. why does an 18-year-old need an ar-15 in the state of texas? >> so this is how the legislative process works. congress determines the laws. right now, we have a congress that won't talk to one another. there's so much rhetoric and hate. >> reporter: you were in the navy. you were trained to use these kinds of weapons. i still am hung up on the idea why a guy can buy one and shoot up a school. why would he need the weapon you need? >> the guy didn't wake up and say, i'm going to do this. this was years in the planning. >> reporter: i guess i'm hung up

on why you can't say whether it's not okay for an 18-year-old to have a weapon like this, it is not okay formentally ill to weapon like this. why not controlling in some small way who can have the dangerous weapons be part of a conversation about holisitc solutions? >> this is my understanding, is this individual had no criminal record, had no evidence of mental health or anything else, and legally purchased a weapon. that's my understanding. >> our colleague garrett haake there pressing the republican congressman. reminder, you have to be 21 to buy a handgun in this country. 18 to purchase an ar-15. republican senator bill cassidy of louisiana was asked by vice news why people need ar style rifles. here is his response. >> do you think that there is any room to ban assault weapons in this country? why does someone need an ar-15? >> talk to the people who own it, killing ferrell pigs in the

middle of louisiana, they'd say, why would you take it away? i'm law-abiding. the action of a criminal deprives me of my right. >> senator bill cassidy of louisiana. joining us now, former new york city police commissioner, bill bratton. former cia agent, tracy walton and contributor to the ball wart. and "not my party" on snapchat, tim miller. commissioner, as a seasoned veteran of many police departments, just your initial assessment of the approach it appears law enforcement took in uvalde. we know now at 11:40, the gunman entered the school. 12:47, the tactical team arrived, got in, and finally was able to kill him. that's not to say, as we've said many times, there were not brave officers who confronted him initially but were outgunned. based on what you know, what is your assessment here?

>> well, a lot of what we're dealing with, willie, is peculation at this stage. law enforcement in texas has been an embarrassment in terms of the misinformation they've been providing. i teach this in terms of communications in times of crises. you always start off with information is preliminary subject to change. information they've been putting out two, three day after the event has been an embarrassment. there's so much misinformation. we really don't know at this stage what happened in those first 12 minutes, the first hour. we do know that this seems to have been a violation of the basic tenant of active shooters, which is that you move to the shooter. no matter what, you move to the shooter to save lives. officers around the country since columbine now, for 30 years, are trained to do that. we're going to need to find out in the days and weeks ahead, did this department train for it? did they, in fact, do it? i'm reading news stories about

some individual officers who effectively did do that in them into this event is there is no schematic about the school. this is not one building. it is multiple buildings. multiple classrooms in multiple buildings. they should be able to, at this stage, basically explain, what does this building look like? where were officers? where was the shooter? the confusion, everybody killed in one classroom, and now we find there may be four classrooms the individual was roaming through. there's so many unanswered questions. at this stage of the game, they should be doing a much better job than they have been doing to try to explain what they do know. it's a mess. it's an absolute mess. >> commissioner, how do you explain? we know we heard from ken dilanian, there is a s.w.a.t. unit in uvalde. they have physical barriers, fences, resource officers, doubling the budget to keep the schools safe. how do you explain the delay as

you look at the timeline of 11:40 to 12:47, how do you explain that? >> that's what the investigation that is under way, i would assume, needs to be determining, so they can get information out to the public, to you in the media to get to the public, about what they know at this stage of the game. the doors in the classrooms, do they lock from the inside to keep a shooter from coming in? did that preclude their ability to immediately get into the classrooms? we have no information as to what the inside of the school looked like, in terms of what officers were dealing with, trying to get into classrooms. again, the news media conference they're going to do this afternoon, hopefully they'll finally get their act together. give us some schematics, some timelines. i'm not interested in terms of the 911 calls that came in the in the 12-minute period of time. the initial shot fired at the grandmother would bring a large police response in that small town to that location. the crash of the vehicle.

the shots being fired outside at the two people at the funeral home. the confusion. one of the things that clears that up is what were officers responding to? sounds like they were responding to multiple shooting incidens in a very small town. probably weren't more than 10, 12 officers working on a shift in that city at that time. we don't have that information. we're going to have to wait until more information comes available. at the moment, they're doing a terrible job of trying to basically control this situation. hopefully they get their act together later today with the news conference that's now scheduled for later today. >> tracey, good morning. thanks for being here. it is jonathan lemire. want to draw upon your experience as a former fbi agent, also a teacher. there are a number of republican senators who seem to want to talk about anything other than the issue at hand. guns. an immediate talking point seems to be school safety to harden the schools, although we've seen in some moments where people -- someone there with a gun is

overmatched. that's what happened in buffalo anyway. also, this idea of a single point of entry. just one way in, one way out. thinking that would be easier to safeguard. but aren't there actually an extraordinary amount of dangers to that proposal? >> yes. it is incredibly dangerous. as a teacher myself, a former fbi agent, i mean, part of why i am no longer a law enforcement officer is that, as a law enforcement officer, you have an ethical obligation to engage a target and proceed to where violence is occurring and try to stop it. i wasn't willing to do that any longer. you know, as a teacher, if you have one egress point out of a school, you are dealing with, if it is at a high school, you could potentially have 1,200 kids trying to enter and exit from the same point. we have to remember, you know, i'm here in texas. we have tornado drills. we had a tornado not far from

me. in california, they have earthquakes. we have fires in chemistry labs. if you have exit point to the school, this can be a complete disaster. students really could be burned alive inside of a school. >> tracy, we know there are these talks going on, preliminary, bipartisan talks in the senate. we have no idea if they'll lead to anything or anything that could be meaningful. but if you had the ear of democratic leadership at the moment, what would you advise them to be doing? >> you know, i think we need to put limits on these sales of these long guns, particularly here in texas. i think that they are incredibly easy to get. i think that, you know, you can really create a maximum amount of damage in a very, very, very short period of time. we are just not equipped to deal with this. schools should not be these hardened fortresses, basically, that they have become. this is not what educators signed up to do.

and i really would like to tell lawmakers that we need to be putting limits on these things. they shouldn't be this readily available. >> tim, there are a couple pieces of legislation sitting in the house that passed through the house on background checks, expanding those, that have not been taken up by the senate. chuck schumer trying to get that going. there is this bipartisan group having a conversation, for whatever that's worth. joe manchin said yesterday, this time feels different. we noted he said the same thing after parkland and similar sentiments after sandy hook. as you think about this, what is the way forward? is there anything achievable in trying to prevent elementary school kids from being killed in their classrooms? >> yeah, hey, willie. first thing is i think speed is important. look, we've seen this both on shootings. we saw it with the second trump impeachment. if these guys go on a vacation, if weeks fast, momentum for this stuff fails.

excuses pile up. i think chuck schumer and the senate should bring up the background check bill. the two tangible things that could respond to the shooting in buffalo and the shooting in uvalde that i think they should bring up are the two changes that republicans in florida made after the parkland shooting. rick scott, who is in the senate right now, was governor of florida. he signed a law that would put in these red flag laws, which are kind of these restraining orders for people who are a danger to themselves or others. family members or police could go to the courts to get weapons removed from them. the second one is when garrett haake was talking to the congressman about changing the age from 18 to 21. it is insane you can buy two assault rifles online in texas, but you can't buy a glass of wine at dinner. nobody could be more that in a

genuine principled manner. the only reason you'd want to keep the law like that is because you are scared of the nra, scared of your voters, or you are apathetic about the deaths of these little children. and so i just -- if i was the democrats, if i was chris murphy, who i think is working in good faith and trying to act on this, i'd say to the republicans, i'm going to bring up the rick scott/ron desantis freedom act. we're going to take nationally the gun laws in florida. it's not going to stop everybody crime and mass shooting, but it would have stopped this one or slowed this one down in uvalde. i think it is powerful. there's a lot of political, practical reasons to believe that it could get passed. >> yeah. mike, this gunman bought a couple semiautomatic rifles after his 18th birthday as well as 400 rounds of ammunition. >> willie, that's another aspect of this investigation that we need more information on. he is 18 years of age. he's unemployed. he's drifting through life,

apparently, not having a grip on what is real, what isn't real. he spent over $3,000 in one day, apparently, on two assault weapons and a package of ammunition and some kevlar body protection. commissioner bratton, the level of misinformation we've received thus far, the nation has received thus far, is actually appalling. but my question to you has to do with the -- you just mentioned it a few minutes ago -- that 12 minutes between the time the car crashes, he crashes the car, and he gets into the school. a full 10 minutes outside of the school. ten minutes after the 911 call was first registered. this is a small town, as you pointed out. there's no traffic. there's no congestion at that hour. how bothersome is it to you, that within that 10-minute package of time, 12 minutes in

total, that nobody, apparently, responds to a shooter at a school? >> well, mike, that's one of the details that's going to have to be determined, in the sense of that 12 minutes, what calls are coming into 911 system? where were the police officers in that community going to the shooting scene with the grandmother, potentially going to the shooting scene at the funeral home. then the idea that funeral home is right across from the school. what notification protocols do they have to lock down the schools when they have a shooting incident adjacent to one? the devil is in the details. unfortunately, law enforcement is doing a terrible job in this community, in texas, in public safety, of giving details, even if they are preliminary. there's so much that needs to be explained here. up to this point, they have been giving out nothing, basically. it can't be described as anything but misinformation.

it is an embarrassment to american law enforcement and certainly to law enforcement in texas, as to how badly they are handling this situation. >> tracy, let's talk about training. we've learned in the last couple of days that uvalde has poured lots of money and resources into protecting schools. physically barriers, all the things we talked about a moment ago with commissioner bratton. but what are you seeing as you sort of now get the details and the timeline straightened out here? what was missing in this response in your estimation? >> i wholeheartedly agree with the commissioner. what, to me, seems to be missing is this ethical obligation to engage. in texas. we have the advance law enforcement rapid response training. they train hundreds of thousands of law enforcement officers here in texas for incidents like this. you are taught to go to where the place of violence is occurring and stop that threat.

after columbine, this whole idea of waiting for the s.w.a.t. team, waiting for additional officers sort of fell to the wayside. you are taught to engage. the piece that i am seeing here is just the idea that no one seemingly, originally, continued to engage. also, the interesting thing to me is this hour-long time. typically, what we see is school shootings are over within 10 to 15 minutes because the longer they go on, really, the more threat you have to life. and so i think those are the two things that are very interesting to me and what i really think is missing there. >> tim miller, let's talk about the nra convention taking place this weekend in houston. former president trump will be there as of now. senator ted cruz still on the schedule. texas governor abbott has announced he will not attend, though will provide a video message. can you speak to the power of the nra that has waned certainly in recent years through scandal

and grift and everything it's gone through, but is it as easy -- is the explanation for inaction as easy for people like ted cruz and others, that they just get a whole bunch of money from the gun lobby? >> you know, willie, i don't think so. i think that this is sometimes a little bit of a miss on the left in understanding what is happening with conservatives and what motivates them. look, the nra is powerful. the nra has money because they have members. this is a bottom-up problem, not a top-down problem, right? the money certainly influences politicians. they want to appeal to donors, no doubt about that. but the big fear on acting on guns is that there's going to be this bottom-up revolt. they're going to get primaried. the voters will be unhappy. they'll be shouted down at the airport like lindsey graham did famously at reagan airport. the fear of their own voters is what i think is motivating republicans here. going back to my first point,

that is why, you know, you should push legislation that has already been demonstrated to not create this backlash. in florida, after parkland, they raised the assault rifle age to 21. the nra didn't come for rick scott. he moved from governor to senate. he wasn't primaried. republicans, stop being scared and listening to your consultants with the conventional wisdom you should doing in. stop doing the door control and protect the kids. it is getting at motivations more than that it is just the money. it is not that alone influencing the inaction. >> call it the ron desantis bill if it helps you get it through and makes you feel better about it. tim miller, we'll be watching your video on this topic on snapchat. thanks for being with us. former cia officer and fbi special agent tracy waldon.

and commissioner bill bratton, thank you very much. by the way, commissioner bratton is the author of "the profession," community, race, and the arc of policing in america." the new york yankees and tampa bay rays dropped the usual game coverage that appears on their social media accounts. their twitter accounts highlighted statistics on gun violence in the united states, with each linking to sources like the cdc and department of veterans affairs. instead of posting about moments from the game, the yankees posted about firearms being the leading cause of death for american children and teens in 2020. another post read, quote, when an assault weapon is used in a mass shooting, it results in six times as many people shot than when other guns are used. this one notes, every day, more than 110 americans are killed with guns, and more than 200 are shot and injured.

another post pointed out, an average of 4,500 veterans die by firearm suicide every year, about 12 veterans each day. another said, every three hours, a young black man dies by gun homicide. that from the rays' account. the rays also said the team pledged $50,000 to a gun safety advocacy group. adding, quote, this cannot become normal. we cannot become numb. we cannot look the other way. we all know if nothing changes, nothing changes. we'll have more on the texas shooting ahead. plus, a look at some of the other stories we're following this morning, including the latest timeline for when stores finally could be stocked with baby formula. we'll have an update there. plus, a legal loss for former president trump means he will have to testify under oath. and we are remembering the life and career of ray liotta, who we learned yesterday died at the age of 67.

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. it's kind of a strange concept. >> i thought it was the dumbest. >> so when you first heard the concept -- by the way. >> because he's hearing voices. i couldn't visualize what they were doing and i never read the book. i said this is crazy. i'll do it, but it's crazy. >> you're like -- >> it's great. >> that is ray liotta revealing to us on "morning joe" back in 2012 he thought the not of "field of dreams" was ridiculous when pitched to him. nbc news correspondent gadi schwartz has more on liotta's life and career. >> as far back as i can remember i always wanted to be a

gangster. >> reporter: in the history of hollywood tough guys and heartthrobs. >> what a second -- >> you were going to stand me up. >> reporter: ray liotta could play them all with the flash of his babe blue eyes that would pierce with violence in "goodfellas." in "field of dreams." >> i did love this game. >> reporter: confirming 67-year-old ray liotta passed away in his sleep in the dominican republic while shooting a death, his death after the release of "the mini saints of new wark". >> stay out of this life. >> seventh grade. >> reporter: sitting down with willie geist last fall telling him he was happiest with family. >> i like staying home with my fiance and staying home and chilling. >> reporter: leaving behind his fiancee and daughter carson and friends and costars like robert de niro and joe pesci. >> really funny. >> what do you mean i'm funny. >> reporter: starring in

"operation dumbo drop". >> what did i do? >> reporter: to -- >> i couldn't stop you. >> reporter: and john cue, winning an emmy in 2005 tore a guest role in the series "er". >> where am i? >> reporter: a hollywood icon as unforgettable as the shiny eyes. >> come back again. >> reporter: who passed peacefully in his dreams. >> gadi schwartz reporting there. ray liotta died at the age of 67. mike barnacle, i had a chance to interview ray for "sunday today" eight months ago, we got together at a restaurant downtown in new york and had a great conversation a fun conversation about his long career, and he told me a story about the famous tracking shot in "goodfellas" where they walked through the copa. it took weeks to set up and lighting. at the last moment the table goes down, sits down, henne youngman has to deliver a joke, they get all the way to the end, henne youngman blows the line

and they have to reset the famous tracking shot from "goodfellas." an incredible career for ray liotta. always fun to watch on screen, especially in that movie. >> yeah. you know, the interesting thing about him, he actually, a lot of people, including me, probably you to some extent, typecast him as, you know, great mob character. he had range as an actor. the "field of dreams" clips we're showing there were part of the most emotional package of that film. and having spent just a -- not a lot of time with ray low liotta but a couple times in tribeca, part of him probably thought he was a gangster and the mold of his character, actually, you know, endorsed that aspect of it. one of the great roles he played in a very underrated movie was "cop land" with sly stallone. ray liotta was great in it. the voice that he had was kind

of unique, kind of distinct. you lose track of that because there's a saneness to some of his characters. he did a lot of voiceover work for commercial products. good guy. >> and if you only ever made "goodfellas" that would be enough. he was so good in that. ray liotta -- >> that tracking shot, incredible. >> died at the age of 67. still ahead, we will turn back to uvalde, texas. a new account from police about its response leading to more questions. we'll have new details when "morning joe" comes right back. "morning joe" comes right back. she's in prague between the ideal cup of coffee and a truly impressive synthesizer collection. and you can find her right now (lepsi?) ork.com (lepsi.) when the world is your workforce, finding the perfect project manager, designer, developer, or whomever you may need...

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good morning. welcome to "morning joe." friday, may 27th. a new account from police about the response to the school massacre in uvalde, texas is leading to new questions about why it took one hour for police to take down the killer and why

the doors of the school were unlocked. we also are hearing more stories from survivors and their parents, including a girl who smeared blood on herself and played dead to avoid getting shot. a fourth grader. also hearing from parents who say they rushed into the school themselves to save their children, not waiting for police. and the tragedy compounded for one family, unbearably, the husband of one of the two teachers killed in the shooting dies from a heart attack just days after the shooting in the school. with us this morning we have the host of "way too early" and white house bureau chief of politico jonathan la mere, correspondent for bbc news, katty kay and contributor mike barnicle. we begin with those questions about the police response to the shooting in uvalde. some of the key details provided by texas officials in the first 48 hours after the attack have turned out to be inaccurate. here is what has changed. texas officials first said the

attacker exchanged gunfire with a school resource officer before entering the school. then later said the school resource officer engaged with the attacker, but did not exchange gunfire. yesterday, officials now said, in fact, there was no school resource officer there at all, and that the killer walked into the school through an unlocked door, unobstructed and began firing. the amount of time the gunman spent outside before entering the school has changed. we initially were told after he shot his grandmother he fled, crashed a truck outside of the school, and then ran inside. yesterday, officials said after crashing the truck, he got out, fired toward two witnesses who were at a funeral home across the street and then walked toward the school, climbed a fence to enter the parking lot of the school and then began firing at the school building from the outside. officials say 12 minutes passed from the time he crashed to when he entered schools. he was outside that school for

12 minutes. also now a discrepancy about where the victims were found. it initially was reported that gunman spent an entire hour inside a single classroom and that all of the victims were inside that one classroom. nbc news has learned from texas officials the victims were found in four classrooms. here's the new timeline from texas officials about what happened right after the gunman entered the school and began shooting. >> four minutes later, local police departments, uvalde police department, the independent school district police department, are inside making entry. they hear gunfire and they take rounds and move back, get cover, and during that time, they approach where the suspect is at. officers are there. the initial officers received

gunfire. they don't make entry initially because of the gunfire they're receiving. we have officers calling for additional resources. everybody that's in the area. tactical teams, we need equipment, we need specialty equipment, we need body armor, we need precision riflemen, negotiators, so during that time that they're making those calls to bring in help to solve this problem and stop it immediately, they're also evacuating personnel. when i say personnel -- students, teachers. >> the texas department of public safety said an hour passed, an hour passed, before a tactical team arrived and shot and killed the suspect. yesterday, kerry sanders asked what else police were doing in that hour to save lives? >> you say at one point when he was inside there among the

things you were attempting, negotiation. was he responding to negotiation? and in that period of time, was there continued gunfire? >> so during that time, right now, according to the information we have, the majority of the gunfire was in the beginning. in the beginning. i say numerous, more than 25. i mean it was a lot of gunfire in the beginning. during the negotiations, there wasn't much gunfire other than trying to keep the officers at bay. but that could change, depending -- once we analyze the video. but right now, according to information, he did not respond. >> joining us from uvalde, texas, is nbc news correspondent sam brock. sam, it's really breathtaking. it's like we're talking about two different incident from the first reports from police about what happened at robb elementary school to what we heard yesterday in a press conference that, by the way, actually raised more questions to be answered today. >> willie, good morning.

i think it is worth noting the fact that this investigation is still being conducted. we're learning new pieces of information about what happened when in this sequence on tuesday. that said, what we have heard from local law enforcement officials here is not only confusing, but utterly conflicted to your point there about this being breathtaking, all sorts of information that does not align, starting really, with what happened when the shooter arrived on campus. we know this, that 11:28 he crashed his grandmother's truck after he shot his grandmother, pulled out of the car with a long rifle and fired bullets at nearby witnesses at a funeral home. then some 12 minutes later actually did enter the school, but this is where it becomes confusing. we heard from the regional director there that there was no school resource officer to confront him. however, 24 hours prior, the director of dps offered that account where he said there was a courageous confrontation with a school resource officer.

24 hours later that person no longer exists. that's question number one. how did he get into the building? they say it appears a door on the side of the building was unlocked. you can double your security budget which in uvalde county they have done that, doubled security at this school district, and yet if a door is left open, kids' lives will be compromised. it appears that was fatal consequences in this case. move over to what seems to be the most famous dissected aspect. four minutes after the gunman entered robb elementary school, that's when local law enforcement arrived, according to officials, they had to retreat under fire. there was an ar-15 style assault weapon. the shooter was using. they left the building and waited for an hour and you heard the explanation there just a second ago, for precision riflemen, tactical gear, specialized equipment and negotiators. now, the president for these school safety advocacy council which trains schools on how to

respond to school shootings, said that sort of thinking is complete outdated. basically since columbine, that now protocol is for law enforcement officers, whether it's one, three, or four, to enter the building immediately if there is an active shooter situation and try to neutralize the threat, and yet here, it took until 12:47 for cbp to arrive and, quote, neutralize the threat. in that time frame, we've seen the video of parents standing outside wondering, what is going on here? they were trying to rip down fences, break into windows, to get into that school building so they could do whatever possible to try to save their kids' lives and ultimately 19 children, between the ages of 8 and 10, fourth graders, murdered as an hour goes by. that really is the heart of this investigation right now and so many questions surrounding that very issue, why do you have a texas law enforcement agency saying that protocol was to wait for this sort of more tactical

assistance and special forces to arrive to handle the situation when there were kids dying by the minute inside of that school and where. now you mentioned one classroom, originally we were told all of the victims were in that one location and now it appears there were four classrooms with kids and potentially teachers affected. willie? >> sam, as you say, we're looking at this video of parents, we have firsthand accounts from parents who say they, in fact, did go into the school and get their kids. they weren't going to wait anymore. stay with us. i want to bring into our conversation nbc news investigations correspondent tom winter. tom, boy, so many fictions told on the first day. we understand these things are complicated and sometimes that the details and the facts that first come out in this fog of war setting, can be inaccurate, but there are some fundamental contradictions in the initial story that was told and to what its appears actually happened. the only one that really matters right now and we can talk about whatever you want to get to, but did those kids die in that hour

when the teams were standing outside not going inside the building? did it cost the lives of children? >> we'll get back in a moment, willie, to one of the sloppiest public information responses i've ever seen to any sort of mass incident like this and i've covered this and been on this beat for approximately ten years. moving beyond that to your question which is the central question, which is, kids' lives. last night in an interview last evening with cnn, one of the colleagues of that texas dps individual there said that there were victims and there were kids that they were able to get out of that classroom that's consistent with our colleague kerry sanders' reporting, so now, you have to ask the natural question, that if this shooter was killed earlier, would more children be alive today? i think that's the bottom line. there are serious questions about this, not just coming from you, myself, from people that are watching this, but also from the policing community, speaking to former chiefs yesterday who

were trained -- excuse me, trained people in this, that were responsible for officers that would go into these types of situations. i think they find the response to be extremely troubling. those are the types of words that they're using with me. there is no school of thought currently in u.s. law enforcement, and this does go back to columbine as sam referenced, but particularly because now we've had so many of these incidents and so many of these incidents have been studied as far as what went right and what went wrong, and it's very clear here that the basic protocols of you get a couple officers together so you have somebody on your right, left, somebody behind you, and you go in. i'm not sitting here saying today that i would look forward to going after somebody who has an ar-15, has already shot at and killed individuals and you've got little kids in this instance, based on the information that we're aware of

from inside the classroom is incredibly depraved and with holding some of those details because of sensitivity to these poor families that are going through this, willie, i'm not saying that i would jump up and be first in line for that, but that is their job and that is the reality unfortunately that they have to deal with. they're dealing with somebody who has a high powered weapon, a weapon that would hurt somebody like myself, 240 pounds, 6'3", of one bullet could end me out of that gun. let alone little kids. so they needed to get in there. they needed to confront the threat. as somebody said to me yesterday, willie, it is not minutes that count, it's seconds that count. that is how dangerous this situation was for those little kids, and they say that they have video of this. they've said a lot of things so far. for us not to have a timeline at this stage of the investigation, a preliminary one, is, frankly,

shocking. >> in time you talk about seconds and minutes. we know from the new official report that the gunman entered and tactical team arrived at 12:47, his hour and 7 minutes being in the school with the kids. many of the parents in uvalde are recounting what they saw outside of robb elementary school during the attack. javier, whose fourth grade daughter was among the dozens of parents outside the school after finding out there was a shooting. he rushed there, of course. he told "the new york times," law enforcement is misrepresenting what happened, saying, quote, they said they rushed in and all that. we didn't see that. he says he saw police officers evacuating children, but grew angry when he did not see officers enter the school immediately. mr. cazares went on to say, there were plenty of men armed to the teeth that could have gone in faster. this could have been over in a couple of minutes. he claims it took 15 or 20

minutes for law enforcement to bring protective shields to enter. angela gomes told "the wall street journal" she drove 40 miles to the school after learning about the shooting and saw one of a number of parents who began encouraging police and other law enforcement first politely and then with more urgency, as you can imagine, to enter the school. gomez told the journal u.s. marshals put her in handcuffs telling her she was being arrested for intervening in an active investigation. local officers convinced the marshals to set her free. she got distance from the crowd, jumped a fence, went inside the school, found her two children, and ran out of the building with them. video shared online showed distraught parents outside the school on tuesday confronting law enforcement. other family members have claimed they were detained and handcuffed as well the u.s.

marshals denied anyone was put in handcuffs outside of the school on tuesday. mike barnicle, you've covered a lot of these tragedies, unfortunately. you've watched police work up close for decades. you've watched how the stories of the incidents have been told. what did you make of what you saw yesterday? >> well, i'm in total agreement with tom winters' assessment. this is beyond shocking and sam's reporting on this is also beyond shocking. your first instinct is to do the tick tock on the 12 minutes that we're talking about here. the 12 minutes from the time that he emerges from the crashed car, fires a couple of shots across the street, toward the funeral home, and 12 -- and 11:30 minutes later finally enters the school. the tick tock on that is going to be critical. when was the first 911 call logged? what's the time and distance

between arriving officers in the area, things like that? it's, you know, you're hesitant to second-guess anyone being confronted by an ar-15 and a crazed gunman, but the 12 minutes time, that is so critical in terms of what eventually happened. in all probability, sadly, but realistically, once he enters the school, once he enters a classroom or classrooms, within two or three minutes, the horrific deed is done. he has killed numerous numbers of children, but the 12 hinz prior to that, prior to his entry into the school, i think is going to take care of a lot of the issues that people have a lot of the questions that have been raised. you know, you would have to say, again, this is repetitive off of what tom has pointed out and what sam has reported, the confusion and the muddling of accounts given to the public in

a horrendous, horrendous crime like this, is maddening. actually is beyond maddening. you have parents who have been waiting for some information for two, three days now, the first information that's been dispensed, i won't say it's a lie, but it's horrifically misleading. we have to find out exactly what happened, who did what, and where they were. >> sam brock, this tragedy becomes even more unbearable, if you can imagine such a thing, as you watch this morning, when we learned yesterday that the husband of irma garcia, the fourth grade teacher killed in the classroom found huddled over their children trying to protect them, suffered a heart attack and died. what more can you tell us about that? >> irma garcia, willie, taught at the school for 23 years and she was married to her high

school sweetheart joe who you're looking at the left side of your screen right now. 24 years of marriage, but 30 plus years of a life-long love. they had four children together, the youngest of whom only 12 years old, and according to a nephew, a family nephew, john martinez, he died of grief, bunt he also relayed to us sort of the sequence he understood from family members, which was after laying down flowers at a memorial, joe garcia returned home, sat down in a chair and within minutes, willie, fell over. they tried to have chest compressions to see if they could bring him back. it didn't work. he died. and so now behind me, you have 21 of those crosses, memorials, that's miss garcia's memorial right there. her cross. and you have a second family member, after everything they have been through, she gave her life trying to protect students shielding them with her body, now her husband, the love of her life, has passed away. i will leave with you, there is

a gofundme account that has been set up. the target for the family members, for the four kids, was $10,000. as of this morning at last check, $1.8 million has been generated, has been raised for that family to try to help them. but nothing, no amount of money or generosity across the country, is going to soothe the heartache they are experiencing right now and that is so emblematic of what this community is going through at this point in time, willie. >> as you say, they have four children, including a 13-year-old who five days ago had their mother and father with them and now neither. sam brock in uvalty, texas, thanks so much. coming up, we will hear firsthand accounts from students who witnessed tuesday's horrifying massacre inside that school. their stories are next on "morning joe." their stories are next on their stories are next on "morning joe.'ll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past

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we're hearing more about what happened inside robb elementary on tuesday from

students who survived the attack. here are some of their accounts. >> i heard the shooter tried shooting at an officer. they ran past and back snooins what were you thinking as you were hiding in the bathroom for so long? >> i think i was trying to be still, not like move, talk. i was just crying in my head. >> everybody was scared. we were all panicking because we didn't know what was really happening. what we saw were thousands of police and border patrol coming into the cafeteria and we were all hiding behind a stage in the cafeteria when it happened. >> i got really scared and i didn't know who was hurt or dead, and we started looking around on facebook and then i realized that all the people i

knew were dead now. >> how many? i knew all of them. >> the aunt of another young girl mia in the classroom where the murders took place says her niece resorted to drastic measures in order to stay alive. >> mia got some blood and put it on herself to pretend that she was dead. she saw her friend full of blood and she got blood and put it on her. >> katty, what can you say? we're talking about third and fourth graders, little girls with ribbons in their hair, smearing the blood of their classmates on their bodies and playing dead so that an 18-year-old with an ar-15 won't kill them too. >> yeah. i mean, poor little girl. now she's -- all of those children who we just heard from, willie, traumatized beyond

belief. that little girl is going to go home with incredibly complicated, terrified feelings. how these kids go back into a school room come the fall, i don't know. they're going to have their own grief of their friends -- the little girl said she knew all of them. her friends are gone. her group of friends are gone, and that's -- they're all dealing with extraordinary levels of trauma. of course, the families, with all of those question, and one of the things i don't know if you know it yet, how frequently do they have active shooter drills in those police communities? when was the last one? i imagine this is preparation that needs to be done regularly for it to be effective. it doesn't sound like it was effective in this case. >> terrific question and one of the questions we're trying to get answered. one of the things when i speak to these chiefs that have trained people on this, is you have to continually train. the reason for that is, you have to continually get it into your

mindset, the mindset of the officers who are going to be out there, who are going to be responding, not the s.w.a.t. officers, the person who's working at that school or the person who might be in that community, any one of those officers needs to be continually trade because you want to engrain in your head this idea of move to the shooter. the nypd has that phrase. i've been out with them when they've trained in their facility where they train for the active shooters. you have to move to the shooter. the exact thing that you don't want to do, the thing that your fight or flight in life is somebody shooting, why do i want to go to that? that's the type of thing that needs to constantly be drilled into you so you get that in your head as a police officer. these are from the people that trained them, that are around this all day long, that study these mass shootings that say, that's what's got to happen. you have to continually train and get it in your head that seconds count and you have to do the exact thing your body and brain is telling you not to do. >> potential news conference today from texas law enforcement is only going to prompt more questions, as they try to get a

sense as to what happened there and dallas and response just infuriating. we saw the response from the parents. tom, want to shift gears slightly, talk about the shooter. >> right. >> have there been any updates or progress, any investigation into the motive behind this into -- have we heard from his family at all? is there any sense as to what connection, if any, he has to that school and why he chose to make it a target? >> that is the ultimate question when it comes to his motive at this point. there's some indications they've been able to get into some of his electronic devices. we don't know the contents of what's contained inside much those devices. clearly, you would assume by now that the full web browser history of this individual, text messages, any sort of communications, clearly communicating with somebody on facebook in the moments leading up to this shooting, so who else has he been communicating with over the past six, 12 months. it doesn't appear based on the

various interviews and discussions the family members have had with members of the press that anybody has any sort of sense as to why this school, why did this occur and how did this come together. we're talking about information here and i know, you know, mike you know this well from the boston mara on there bombing, i rewatched ed davis, former commissioner of the boston police, give an update on this, and, you know, jonathan, you mentioned we're going to get an update today. i think it is incredibly important for the law enforcement officials in texas to take a moment and regroup. it's understandable in the first few hours things can get mixed up, but presumably, you had officers there with body cameras. they say there's video, there's a surveillance video system at the school of some kind. that's what they've said, they have video of this. somebody is going to be assigned to -- depending on the body camera system, they have the ability to get everybody's body cameras and let's start it at 11:28 and they can view all the

different views at the same time. that's the computer system. i've seen it myself. they would have the ability of saying what happens when. what happens where. the timing of this is so critical and what are the steps that this person takes and it's time for real concrete information. i understand -- and i don't think anybody is asking for a where did this shell casing land or how many inches was he from this or that, that is going to take months of time to do, maybe even longer -- but i think at this point we need a very clear understanding of the timeline, a very clear understanding of what happened. you say you called for a negotiator, but then kerry asked you the question, kerry sanders e there's no discussion in that time period, what's the thinking there? i think today is the day for real answers. they have to get this right. their credibility going forward has been severely questioned at this point. they really have this press conference to try to

re-establish any of it. >> tom winter, thank you very much. coming up, president biden and the first lady are headed to texas this weekend to meet with the families of the people killed in tuesday's attack. we'll go live to the white house for a preview straight ahead on "morning joe." a preview straig "morning joe." okay season 6! aw... this'll take forev—or not. do i just focus on when things don't work, and not appreciate when they do? i love it when work actually works!

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he prosecuted zero fentanyl drug dealing cases, even though nearly 500 people have died of overdoses. i'm voting yes on h to recall chesa boudin now. we can't wait one more day when people are dying on our streets. . president biden and first lady biden will travel to uvalde, texas on sunday to meet with the families of the victims of the elementary school shooting there. meanwhile on capitol hill a bipartisan group of senators has begun to hold informal talks about new potential gun safety legislation. democratic senator chris murphy of connecticut spearheading that effort along with senator richard blumenthal. they both were heavily involved in the failed efforts to pass background check legislation in the wake of the shooting at sandy hook in their state of connecticut a decade ago. at the meeting yesterday,

democrats kyrsten sinema, martin hinrich and joe manchin, the republicans senator susan collins, lindsey graham and pat toomey. bill cassidy joined by phone. minority leader mitch mcconnell encouraged john cornyn to meet with that group. mcconnell plans to keep in touch with democrats and hopes lawmakers can reach a deal that can, quote, actually pass and become law, rather than just scoring points back and forth. joining us now, co-founder and ceo of axios, jim vandehei. good morning. we heard from senator manchin yesterday. he said this time feels different. he said that after parkland as well. we've heard that refrain from many after sandy hook. is there any reason to believe that this time is different? are there votes? are there republican senators willing to look, for example, at universal background checks, which is a 90/10 issue in this country? >> yeah. i mean maybe there's a little bit of hope.

we should have perspective in terms of what they're talking about. this isn't massive gun control legislation. what they're talking about is basically two pieces -- one is some incentives for states to enact red flag laws which basically allow their families or judges in many of these states to intervene when people feel like someone is a threat to themselves or a threat to others. even there, they're not talking about a mandate for every state to do this. the current talks are around to provide incentives, grants to states to make sure they have effective red flag laws. even on the background checks which would be substantive because it could extend the background check if you went to an authorized gun dealership, it would extend it to on-line or gun shows. those are the two main components. they're not getting it, the weapons that are being used or the ability for most people in most states to easily buy these weapons. but there is some progress. the fact that mitch mcconnell is somewhat meaningful, and he is close to him, he does represent

leadership, you know, you have toomey, you have manchin and others who are in close conversation with people saying, it does feel different, that they do feel like they can get something done, as you know, willie, the only way to really get something done is to move quickly. every day that passes after a big moment a tragic moment like this, means there's less and less of a chance of something substantive getting done. i think most likely outcome is maybe they get a very small bill done this year and then it becomes a big topic of the election again. i think democrats want a big debate on this. they feel that a lot of the provisions that they support are supported by most of the countries and they're happy to have that debate, just like they're happy to have the debate on abortion. most likely it would be political topics more than policy solutions. >> jim vandehei, thank you very much. coming up, we will do live to houston where the nra is set to hold its annual convention this weekend. texas governor greg abbott no longer will appear there in person, but former president

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as the community of uvalde, texas, prepares for the funerals of 21 victims of tuesday's shooting at robb elementary school, funerals are still being held for the ten people gunned down at a grocery store in buffalo, new york, less than two weeks ago. joining us host of "politics nation" and president of the national action network, the reverend al sharpton. he has attended and preached plane of those funerals in buffalo and will do so today. melissa ray lee, worked in the obama administration and the author of the book "grief is love, living with loss." good morning to you both. it's great to have you. rev, i want to begin with you, as we look at the names and ages of these kids in uvalde, texas, ale going back and looking at the names and ages of the ten victims of the racist shooting in buffalo, and you're going to preach the funeral of an 86-year-old this weekend and

coming up today a 62-year-old who was at that tops supermarket with her fiance, and he was in a different aisle and she was killed while shopping. what will you say to that congregation? how do you bring any measure of peace? >> it is very difficult because you're dealing with people that have to deal with things that does not make sense and that they did not expect, so they could not have any preparation. what you have to challenge them to do is to really, in the memory of their loved one, try to raise this to have meaning. it is very difficult to have meaning in the middle of suffering, but that is what life presents to us. what i would say to the family today and tomorrow is that we cannot kill their legacy because they were killed by a racist who took their life. we must live the life they would

want us to live and raise the ideas and the kinds of things we want society to become in their name. we must make good out of bad as painful and difficult as that may be. >> marissa, your beautiful, heartbreaking book, is called "grief is love" and details your own loss, but speaks broadly to the loss we all feel at times in our lives sometimes as a country, as we're feeling right now, it feels so heavy, it feels difficult to get up and keep going. what do you say to people watching today who are really feeling the weight, especially in these last two weeks of these two shootings? >> i want to tell people that it's normal, you know, we need to give ourselves permission to grieve in this moment. we didn't even have an opportunity to fully process the tragedy in buffalo before the shooting happened this week in texas, and let's not forget, we just crossed 1 million lives lost to covid. we are going through a lot as a

country, and i think it's okay if you're feeling heavy, it's okay if you're feeling overwhelmed or sad or angry. give yourself permission to have those feelings because you need to acknowledge all that's been lost. like we cannot heal from that which we do not acknowledge, so give yourself permission to grieve and let that grief, let that anger, transition into hope that ultimately leads to action. >> marissa, mike barnicle has one for you. mike? >> marissa, could you please speak to the grip that grief has on people, as in many, many cases never ending, and how you learn to live with that on a daily basis? i am sure it recedes after a bit, but it is eternal. >> yeah. i define grief in "grief is love" at the repeated experience

in learning to live in the midst of a significant loss. i lost my mom over 14 years ago. i'm never going to forget that i had a mom. that i shared this amazing unconditional love relationship with this woman. so, you know, every day, different weeks, different holidays, it is a recalibration process. figuring out what you need in order to accommodate for your loss. it's not about getting over it. it's not about moving on. it's about treating yourself with love and compassion and grace as you learn what it is you need to be okay day to day without the person you love. >> a great conversation. marissa renay lee, thank you. reverend al sharpton, thank you as well. coming up next we will speak with a retired police chief of seattle, carmen best, what she makes of the rise in mass shootings across the country, and those big questions surrounding the response by law enforcement in uvalde. "morning joe" is coming right back. t in uvalde.

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that timeline of tuesday's attack in texas, there remain many questions about the suspected gunman. our next guest is a criminologist who has studied shootings in the united states and built a comprehensive database of mass public shootings. james densely joins us now from metro state university and cofounder of the violence project. he details his research in the book, the violence project, how to stop the mass shooting epidemic. thanks for being with us this morning. based on what you know about the shooter in uvalde, texas, and you have done, people should know, extensive research profiling mass shooters in the united states. their childhoods, adolescence, their interests, where society

fell short around them. what do you make of this shooter based on the information we have on him so far? >> yeah, thank you for having me on the show. what we see is a pretty consistent pathway to violence like this. it's often rooted in some sort of early childhood trauma that's unresolved, but really the key thing here is that these individuals reach some sort of crisis point in their life that's overwhelming their usual coping mechanisms. it's often suicidal. in order to perpetrate a mass shooting, you really no longer care if you live or die. it's intended to be a final act. whether you die on the scene, many take their own lives or are killed by law enforcement or you're destined to spend the rest of your life in prison. if you have to be at that point of hopelessness and despair to do this. then these young people start to

look for models of behavior. they're trying to understand why do they feel the way they feel and unfortunately, they find other mass shooters have felt the way they've done and their solution to that problem has been to perpetrate a mass shooting. so you see the mass shooters copy cat others then the final piece of this is this they can get access to a firearm, which in this case, 18 years old, this person's able to purchase an assault rifle, then the shooting is then the next step in that chain. >> you know, professor, we've been talking about this on the air and off for the last few days, which is that kids like this, young men like this, the one in buffalo. you can go down the list as you know better than anyone. they've found a new place to go. somewhere to find community or inspiration or something because when i was a kid in school, we didn't worry particularly about mass shootings, so how did the kids who are as you describe,

had childhood trauma, who are outcasts perhaps at school, how did they go from being outcasts at school in school and perhaps doing damage to themselves or animals or whatever they did back then to now saying oh, this is the possibility for me to be seen and heard, to go into a school and kill children. >> yeah, the grievance sort of festers. the best way it was described is in the book, we outline a series of interviews with interpreter traitors of mass shootings, but also with family members that knew them, survivors, first responders, victims families we interviewed the sister of a perpetrator. it used to be what is wrong with them. then a switch goes off. it's what is wrong with them. the internet and social media then provide a sort of ecosystem within which you can become radicalized around this type of understanding.

so we do see that in recent years, the internet has created an incentive in some ways for fame-seeking behavior. if you're going to send your message to the world that you're angry and frustrated and this is your target, you can do it in a way now that the world will most definitely watch. so this rising sort of fame-seeking behavior is really quite new. i think it trends with the rise of 24-hour news media and social media and internet. >> i want to speak to you about the copy cat phenomenon. it is striking how many of these shooters have followed a playbook by columbine and there is a fear among law enforcement that when one mass shootings happens, others follow. we had buffalo, now texas. we shutter to this what could be next. talk about that. the idea of one shooter following in the footsteps of

another. >> yeah, so we have a chapter in the book that really outlines the mechanisms underneath that process and it is this idea of mass shooters are studying other mass shooters. what they're doing this for is because they're genuinely identifying with those past mass shooters. these are individuals who were just like them. they felt like them. they looked like them. they can relate to them. they can connect with them. then in turn, they become inspiration for what happens. so we see a pattern where particularly columbine because of a blueprint. they're in the darkest corners of the internet, there are some horrific memes that are celebrating the columbine shooters. these become inspiration for some individuals because they want to be seen at that same

level. so there is this sort of copy cat phenomena. you also see the way in which people use certain props. so, an assault rifle, yes, it's used for its utility, but it's also used because other mass shooters have used it, too. so if you want your mass shooting to conform with the conventions of this performance, you'll follow suit and use a weapon like that or dress in a particular way and this is how that contagion continues. >> mike barnacle, research shows more than 80% of mass shooters were in quote, noticeable crisis before the shooting. so the question is how do we intervene with those 80% if it's visible, noticeable, before it comes to the scenes we're seeing in uvalde and buffalo? >> yeah, willie, and professor, we know that americans in the united states of america is

intimately familiar now with mass shooters. we have them on average of god know, but it's very, it's way too often. so we go from new town, connecticut to buffalo, new york, now to uvalde, texas, professor. we know the outlines of what happened. we know the body count of what happens in each of these shootings. the details will spill out eventually about the police department and the texas rangers reaction to what happened in uvalde, but my question to you is what do we do about it? what's the solution? is there an answer to this issue to this problem? to these people? >> i really thank you for asking that question because that is the key and in the book, we actually outline over 30 potential solutions to the mass shooting problem in america. we try and structure them at the individual level, the institutional level, and the societal level. where i think we always get stuck is we're always focused on that societal level.

we say if the act of congress to pass new gun legislation, we're helpless. we can't do anything. but at the individual level, something as simple as safe storage of firearms in the home. if you've got a teenage, lock up the gun. at the institutional level, being attune to signs of violence. they are leaving a trail of bread crumbs. they're crying out for help before the shooting ever occurs. let's make sure we spot those warning signs. put those pieces together and make sure this doesn't happen. then there is that societal piece. we need legislation to improve our social safety net, but also ensure that firearms cannot fall into the hands of young people, dangerous people, that shouldn't have guns in the first place. >> criminal justice professor, the book is the violence project, how to stop a mass shooting epidemic. such an important cve