good morning, welcome to "morning joe." a live look at new york city as we hit the top of the hour. it is wednesday. the 1st of june. it's been eight days now since the massacre inside a school in uvalde, texas. officials once again offering a new account of the moments before the gunman entered the school. we'll have the latest on that. plus, investigators looking into the police response to the shooting say they are now having a hard time connecting with the commander who delayed efforts to go in and kill the gunman. this as the very same commander quietly took his place on the city council last night. we'll have details there. plus, a major defeat for the trump-backed durham probe as special counsel john durham loses his first major case into the investigations of the origin of trump-russia probe. and new developments out of ukraine as president biden reverses course, saying united

states will in fact send advance rocket systems to the war-torn country. we'll have more on what changed the president's mind there. along with joe and mika, we've got mike barnicle and elise jordan and the former chairman of the republican national committee michael steele. we will begin in texas, where the official account has changed again, about how the gunman who killed 19 children and their two teachers entered that school in uvalde. last friday, you'll rememberer the director of the department of public safety said a teacher had propped open a door through which the gunman entered the school. well, now, the agency said the teacher had come back to close the door but it just failed to lock. this new account comes after an attorney for the teacher told the san antonio express news the teacher did prop open the door using a rock to carry food from her car into the school. when she saw the gunman crash his car into a ditch, she went

back inside to get her phone to report the call to police. the attorney said when the teacher heard that the 18-year-old had a gun, she kicked the rock away from the door. it closed as she ran back into the school. the attorney telling the newspaper, quote, she remembers pulling the door closed while telling 911 he was shooting. she thought that door would lock because that door is always supposed to be locked. officials say they are looking into why that door did not lock. meanwhile, funeral services will continue for the victims of the victims there. 10-year-old jose flores jr. will be laid to rest along with teacher irma garcia and her husband joe who suffered a fatal heart attack just two days after her death. they said good-bye to 10-year-olds amerie garza.

garza was honored the bronze cross the award given to those who save or attempt to save a life and risk to their own. back in washington, a bipartisan group of senators will meet to discuss gun safety legislation. a smaller subgroup met including democrats chris murphy and kyrsten sinema along with thomas tillis. saying the participation is a good sign since uvalde is in his home state and given his personal closeness to mitch mcconnell. and in a meeting yesterday, mcconnell was asked about those talks. >> we had a group led by senator cornyn and senator murphy, democratic senate. discussing how we might be able to come together to target the problem of mental illness and school safety.

we are back at it and hope that is resolved. >> so, joe, that's mitch mcconnell yesterday as more 10-year-olds are laid to rest. and we changed the time line again in that school. many people noted watching leader mcconnell say we're talking about school safety and we're talking about mental illness. no mention of guns in his comments there. >> well, i mean, that's the same thing we saw up on the stage in texas a week ago when one texas official after another texas official lied. they lied about the time line about what happened. they lied about what happened inside the school. they lied about what happened outside the school, and mike barnicle, they lied about what as an issue. they kept talking about mental health, again, that's the distraction this time. there's always a different distraction. whether it's violent video games or whatever the distractions

were in the past. now, we're moving on to mental health. and of course, we've been talking about mental health on this show. we've been talking about mental health crisis for years and talked about the importance of funding mental health. but these republicans, especially the governor of texas, he talked about mental health, to hide behind mental health while 10 year children are buried. and why more children are killed than police officers in the line of duty. than u.s. troops are killed in the line of duty, it's just another distraction, so, yes. great, you want to talk about mental health, let's finance mental health, the way it's supposed to be. and let's make sure that mental health practitioners are actually paid a decent wage, so they can take on even more clients. the whole system is rigged right now against this, addressing mental health.

but in part, mike, that's because the republicans have slashed funding for mental health. and slashed funding for medicaid. and slashed funding time and time again. so, they can't hide behind this. and yet it looks -- when you hear mitch mcconnell talking about mental health. you when you hear mitch mcconnell talking about school safety, it looks like another dodge. >> well, you're correct in all counts, joe. there's no doubt about it. mental health is a huge issue in this country as it is in nearly every civilized country committee world right now, given all the complexities of culture in the 21st century. but there's a larger issue than mental health here. that's being able to walk into a gun store at the age of 18 and buy two assault weapons as a happy birthday gift to yourself. to buy more than $3,000 worth of weaponry and ammunition and then go to a school, specifically, to kill. that's a little bigger issue

than mental health is. you know, it's interesting, at least to me it is. yesterday, early in the morning, i got up and i was going down to the grocery store very early. and i was following a school bus. and the school bus made four stops along the way before i broke off and took a left and went to the store. at each stop, i was looking at the parents the children. and the parents had brought these children. they were grammar school kids. young kids, maybe third, fourth, fifth grade. at each stop, the parents hugged each one of their kids as they put them on the bus. that's a huge issue in this country now. we have millions of parents worried about their children's safety in school. they were perhaps worried about it a bit prior to uvalde, texas. but today, it's consumed -- it's consuming in this country. i don't know how long it's going to be consuming.

but it's there right now. and it's a little bit bigger than mental health. it has to do with school safety. children's safety and the availability of weaponry. >> well, mike, as you said, every industrialized nation, every western nation, every nation across the globe, they have challenges with mental health. they have challenges with mental health in great britain, and yet in america, about 4 out of 100,000 people are killed by gunfire every year. and in britain, it is 0.004%. you're 100 times more likely to be killed by guns in the united states per capita, they are you are in great britain. and, michael, still, again, the madness continues. mike talks about these parents who were concerned about their children getting on the school buses and going to school. it's very logical because,

again, we showed the stats yesterday. i don't know if alex has them and can put them up today. but if you're a parent, your child, more children are going to be killed this year by guns than police officers are killed in the line of duty. more children are going to be killed by guns this year than u.s. troops. in combat. more children are going to be killed this year than black americans are going to be shot by police officers. more americans are going to be killed by police officers in total -- i'm sorry, more children are going to be killed by guns than americans killed by police officers in total. now, these are issues. why do i bring all of these issues up? because when it happens, we report on it. we spend a great deal of time reporting on it.

and yet, michael steele, you add up all of those numbers, all of those numbers from all of those categories, it still comes out to less people killed than the number of children who will be killed by gunfire this year. nothing happened after sandy hook. republicans just made excuses. nothing happened after parkland. republicans just made excuses. change the subject. looks like nothing's going to happen after uvalde. looks like they're already trying to change the subject. and make excuses. this bloodshed, michael steele, it's on the nra and it's on these cowards in the republican party who refuse to listen to what 88% of americans want with universal background checks. and what about 85% of americans want with red flag laws. >> yeah. i think, joe, what you're looking at is a political party

and a political leadership that values the fight over inflation, the narrative, you know, the insurrectionist, you know, efforts by democrats, you know, to groom our children. over the lives of those very same children. and i think -- i was struck by the comment of, you know, someone on capitol hill saying that, you know, this is really something interesting that, you know, senator cornyn's at the table. and why is that so interesting? why are you so jacked up about that? nothing's happened. he's there as a decoy. he's not there to actually address what the country needs to have addressed at this moment. this is -- this is the stall and delay tactic. look, they've got -- they're not back yet from their memorial day holiday. they're going to be in town for a couple of weeks.

and then it's off for the fourth of july. they come back for another couple of weeks then they're off for august. when does this bill get done? when does all of this great negotiation happening. and of course, you've got mcconnell talking about something that nobody's talking about. yeah, everybody gets mental health, part of the conversation. but the crux is what do we do about the guns being used, the ar-15s, the access, 18-year-olds. all of those very story lines that are pushing this right in front of us. you're right, joe, more kids will be killed this year than all of the other statistics combined that you showed because of his lack of concern about the fact that more kids would be killed. because if that was a major concern, then guess what, there will be eye serious conversation. everything would be on the table.

and the leadership from both sides would know exactly where that sweet spot is because the american people are giving them the numbers. 90%, 60%, 70%, around reforms on background checks, red flag laws, et cetera. so, it's not like we don't know somewhere the sweet spot is to move the needle here, joe. it's just that the republicans don't want to, because the nra's told them not to. because if they do, guess what, we're going to primary you. we're going to cut off your checks and that matters more to them than the lives of those kids being buried. >> and apparently, elise jordan, as joe pointed out it means more than the public wants. universal background checks, red flag laws, 2 out of 3 americans want a ban on those semiautomatic assault rifles like those used in uvalde and most other mass shootings. this is kind of the format, shock at the beginning, thoughts

and prayers, let it run out the clock without doing anything meaningful. >> i was struck by one phrase that senator cornyn used and i thought it was significant as a republican leader, he was talking about gun safety. i think that's all we need to be talking about, gun safety. not gun control, because that's going to make republicans run away. no one likes to harley the word "control." but gun safety. and when you look at all of the various bills that are lumped together under what the house is going to discuss, protecting our kids act. it's raising the age, prevent gun trafficking, untraceable firearms act. it's incredible we still have person-to-person transfer. much less being 18 being 18 and going in and buying a semi-automatic. but having someone underage who is able to because there are so many states that have person-to-person transfer. and then safe storage of these guns too, because it's rampant. there's so many things we can do under the arc of gun safety.

and we're not getting into gun control. we aren't taking guns away. >> you know what's kind of interesting, at least to me, is in the politics of this, the democratic party seems to have gone soft. on how to approach this. in one respect. the obvious target, no pun intended using that word, for grabbing political allies, in terms of guns and the danger that guns present every day is the police. police forces around this country. how is it that the democratic party hasn't realized that, go to the cops, say we're on your side. the weaponry that you're afraid of when you get out of a cruiser. when you get out of a car, whether in the bronx, manhattan, chicago, illinois, anywhere. the weaponry of assault weapons, you're outgunned immediately, we're here to help you on that. we need your help to join us in this fight.

yet, they don't do it. the democrats don't do it. >> instead, guns are being sold at gun shows that are called literally cop callers and look out of a space movie. >> yeah. that made all the difference in uvalde. over memorial day weekend, 51 people shot in chicago over the long weekend. nine of them were killed. let's turn back now to the federal jury investigation that found homer hillary clinton attorney michel sussmann not guilty. it was pat of the origin of the trump-russia investigation. the case centered around the 2016 meeting with top fbi lawyer james baker where sussmann passed along data he believe indicated a communications back channel between the trump campaign and a russian bank. prosecutors accused sussmann of misrepresenting himself in the meeting. telling baker has weigh passing

on the information just as a concerned citizen when prosecutors claim he actually had two clients. the clinton campaign and a tech executive who oversaw research into the russian bank. here is sussmann speaking yesterday after his acquittal. >> first, i told the truth to the fbi and the jury clearly recognized that with their unanimous verdict today. despite being falsely accused, i'm relieved that justice ultimately prevailed in my case. >> durham said he's disappointed in the outcome and respects the decision. many on the right held up the sussmann case to truv that the trump campaign and white house were spied on especially using a february court filing from durham. the filing showed the trump house were quote, infiltrated. though the filing never used that word. it points to the case a far bigger crime than watergate.

"the wall street journal" editorial board, trump nearly was spied on. the new york post, "washington post," "the new york times" should give back their pulitzers for russia-trump reporting. the word "reporting" in quotes there. from staunch allies on capitol hill. >> i believe the durham report, couldn't campaign the same group that fearmongered this russian collusion actually spied on the president of the united states. they spied on the president of the united states. they spied and they lied. >> you think about it, they spied on a presidential campaign. that's as wrong as it gets but then we get from this filing that they actually filed on a sitting president which is even worse. >> joe, sussmann is acquitted and then the sizzles durham, three years to prove the deep state conspiracy which is what the president is looking for. and so far he's come up empty.

>> it's just asinine. it's been asinine from the start. willie, this started in march 2017 when donald trump said that barack obama was tapping his phones. and it continued, one lie after another lie, after another lie. which was picked up by all of those news outlets that you just quoted. and then barr lets durham start investigating. supposedly investigating the investigators. but there's been absolutely nothing there from the beginning. and this pleading that everybody jumped on in february, we did an entire segment. i mean, i read it. tried to figure it out for 24 hours. i talked to legal scholars, i said, i don't understand this pleading. it looks like it was written by a seventh grader. and sure enough, it basically was. and then you see, at the end of the day, that this investigation of the deep state, this investigation of the

investigators, is much ado about nothing. it's more weirdos, more conspiracy theorists, more freaks, actually getting an attorney general to allow durham go out and make a fool of himself. to drag this out years to make the investigation of the investigators longer than the original investigation. cost millions and millions of taxpayers' dollars and have absolutely nothing to show about it in the end. but yet, you have people being slandered throughout the entire process. and willie, let's start with the fbi. let's start with donald trump. let's start with those right-wing dominant media people who can continue to slander the fbi. let's talk about house republican leaders who slander the fbi day in and day out. and have been slandering the fbi

day in and day out. because they dare to investigate a politician, a failed game show host, who did one thing after another that raised legitimate suspicions. so, here we are, after years of slandering the fbi, they have absolutely nothing to show about it. and of course, the hilarity of the whole sussmann thing, after we heard that the deep state, the fbi, they were going after poor donald trump. poor donald trump is a victim. well, this case was actually sussmann supposedly lying to the fbi. so, durham couldn't even make the fbi the bad guys. durham had to bring a complaint where the fbi was the victim of lying. and even that was a lie by durham. they need to shut this down. it is a joke. it started with donald trump lying about barack obama tapping his phones.

in trump tower. and it's ended with this. it's time to put it behind us. >> yeah. the jury voted unanimously to find sussmann not guilty. and you do wonder how much longer this durham probe will go on when it's uncovered nothing much of anything. let's bring in george conway, contributing columnist for "the washington post." george, your reaction to the online going durham investigation. where is this headed next? >> i hope to the trash can. the justice department should put an end to this ridiculous investigation now. this case was a joke. the entire durham investigation was a joke. there's nothing here to begin with. the jury found it was a joke because the jury came out after a verdict, after a six-hour deliberation, basically said there was nothing here. this case never should have been brought. i mean, he was accused of lying about whether or not he was there on behalf of any client. well, if i say i'm here -- i'm not here on behalf of any dog, it doesn't mean i don't have a

dog. it's just silly. i mean, it was just just designed to throw a bunch of stuff out in the public domain to get people excited. again, it was just a side show. s the whole alfa bank thing, about the trade and transmission or searches for web addresses. i mean, it wasn't spying. it was stuff that internet people look at all the time. and there's no allegation that he was trying to mislead the fbi into anything. and the fact of the matter is, it doesn't cast any aspersions on the russia. allegation. and the trump campaign and russia including paul manafort, the campaign chairman giving polling data to a russian operative. it doesn't cast anything on that.

the investigation wasn't started by anything that hillary clinton did. it was started by papadopoulos, the coffee boy that trump talked about who was at a bar in london talking to an australian grow mat saying oh, there are easy mills that the russians have against clinton. and that's how the investigation got started. it wasn't doing what the clinton people did. >> so, george, this investigation was basically designed and outlined by one of the more political attorneys general in our history bill barr. there's no turn, as far as i know, to this investigation, or to durham's charge. so why is it -- well, first of all, can justice garland, can he just pull the plug on this investigation like today. >> yes. >> does he have the power to do that? >> yes, as attorney general he has under regulations, he has the power to say, okay. that's enough. in fact, he has the obligation

to do it. if he thinking that durham is on a detour. which i think he is. the reason it hasn't been done, they didn't want the political blowback saying oh, cover-up, cover-up, if garland fired durham. and what the justice department should be devoting resources to is the illegality actually in the mueller report. if you abuy the same charging applied in the sussmann case, that donald trump in numerous instructions laid out item by item, element by element, in the mueller report, you would have an indictment long ago. trump was not charged with obstruction simply because he was president of the united states. and doj guidelines say you can't charge a sitting president. well, you know, these -- what

mueller laid out against trumps in orders of magnitude more solid than what the jury rejected yesterday. >> george, so, you're saying that basically attorney general merrick garland could dismiss this now? >> yes. >> what else could merrick garland be doing now? >> at the justice department, he has power, as attorney general, he could say wrap it up, let's see your report. i want it next month. and then they can debate whether, you know, there's anything in the report. and he can shut this down saying that's enough. or basically put with an order, put durham out on the street. >> so, the foreperson for this jury spoke briefly after the

verdict was delivered and said, simply, personally, i don't think it should have been prosecuted. we could spend this time more wisely. that's from someone who sat and listened to all the evidence. george conway, thanks for being here this morning. we always appreciate it. still ahead on "morning joe," the latest from ukraine as the white house outlines a multimillion-dollar aid package. president biden explaining his reason for sending longer range rockets. and general james stavridis, plus a meeting between the chairman of the federal reserves. we'll discuss rising inflation. and new reporting from inside the white house amid the president's sinking approval ratings. president biden reportedly feels like he can't catch a break. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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whoa. as russian forces advance in eastern ukraine, president biden says the united states will send medium-range advanced rocket systems to help the country. the president's confirmation came yesterday in an opinion piece published in "the new york times." the rockets which can precisely target an enemy from almost 50 miles away will be part of a new $700 million military aid package to ukraine. the package also will include javelin anti-tank missiles, artillery rounds, helicopters and tactical vehicles. according to a senior white house official, the weapons were promised only after direct assurances from ukrainian leaders they would not use them to strike targets inside russia's border. joining us now former nato supreme commander, retired four-star navy admiral james

stavridis, he's chief national security diplomacy analyst for nbc news and msnbc. his new book it titled "to risk it all, nine constables and the crucibles of indecision." admiral, help our viewers understand the distinction and the weapons. why you think president biden is making those rules about not using them inside of russia. >> we're very sensitive about providing the ukrainians direct attack weapons, willie, which can be used to reach across that russian border which, let's face it, would be quite tempting to the ukrainians. they've done in some cross-border work themselves with their own system but to give them a longer range surface-to-surface missile like this, we do need to put boundaries on its use. here's the good news and kind of bad news as well. but because the russians are so many miles inside of ukraine, these weapons can be used very

effectively against russian forces that are already part of this invasion. of course, you're showing some good video right there. the key here is guided. these are weapons that can be used quite precisely that can be used against troops in the open. that can be used against logistic bases. again, that's been an achilles' heel for the russians. and finally, willie, it's important to know these are mobile systems. in other words, they can shoot and scoot, as we say in military parlance. so it's a pretty terrific weapons system. i think it will make a real difference in the fight at the moment. >> and joe, this new $700 million aid package that includes these weapons comes as russia is now make something real progress in the east, moving into ukraine. >> well, consolidating some gains that they're making. keeping their supply lines tighter, not as spread out as they were in the beginning stages of the war, which, admiral, leads to the next question, if you could for our

viewers, could you give us a good 30,000-foot look at what's going on right now? we read report in "the new york times," also from british intelligence that the same problems that plagued the russians early in this war, continue to plague the russians. at the same time, they are making gains in the donbas region. so, where are we right now? i know it's going to be -- from what we hear, it's going to be a long, long war. but are we looking at a smaller version of world war ii, where the russians just keep grinding it out. and keep grinding it out. and keep losing troops. but they continue to just overwhelm their opponents until they win? >> you've got it about right, in terms of describing the russian style of war. they are three yards in a cloud of dust. or maybe one yard and a cloud of dust. they're just going to grind and

grind and grind. and when you allow them to that in a relatively small scale, which is what they've been forced into, in the donbas because of their sweeping blitzkrieg scale. the demand is they're now operating in a smaller space. the logistics lines are shorter. they can put more combat power per square kilometer than able to do. you flashed an image of a russian general, his nickname is the butcher of syria, that's general cornakov. he's a grind it out. and joe, you'll see attacks against civilian population. it's a lethal combination. however, having said all of that, if we continue to win this logistic foot race of getting the right weapons which i

believe we're doing in the hands of ukrainians, i think they will ultimately be able to hold and freeze the frame in the fight, at least where they are right now, perhaps a few more clicks in the west. >> admiral in your book "to risk it all" you point out several elements. one of the elements you do point out is to gather all of the evidence available about the decision that's about to be made. have you been surprised that the russians -- with the lack of access to accurate intelligence, or their failure to act on the intelligence that's been available to them? >> in both cases, what you're seeing is magical thinking on the part of the russians. in other words, that intelligence is available to them. but as it filters up the chain of command, briefers were clearly reshaping the intelligence. and by the time it got to putin,

it was quite clear that he was convinced that the ukrainians were going to be greeting the russian soldiers with bottles of vodka. they were greeted with bottles of flammable liquids, that would be molotov cocktails. so in the book "to risk it all" we talk about the need for decisionmakers to be very clear-eyed about facts. and putin on the other side of that fighting line, of course, is volodymyr zelenskyy who i think has a crystal clear view of the threat to this nation and what needs to be done in it. really, at a contrast in risk between these two individuals. i think that's perhaps the greatest advantage that zelenskyy enjoys. >> admiral, i can't believe i have to ask you this question again, there are republicans who seem to be going weak in the knees. there are republicans who are starting to suggest that we need to just give up. that we need to just turn

ukraine over to the butcher of syria. turn ukraine over to vladimir putin. that we need to just quit and surrender and become isolationists like we did after world war i. what do you say to them? >> i say take a look at history. and what i mean by that is, we've seen this movie before. in the 1930s, when the united states checked out league of nations, pulled everything back to the united states. tried to build walls, create barriers around the united states. how did that turn out? well, we had a great depression. with a "d." we ended up with a plum line you can drop to the rise of fascism and the second world war. we've seen the movie. what we need to be doing -- and i think, still, there's broad bipartisan consensus here on the importance of what's happening and how we need to stand with the ukrainians, gather the allies, meet force by force, where necessary. and by doing all of that, we

preserve the peace. and we preserve the ability to operate globally. those are the keys for the united states. we cannot walk away from this. >> you know, admiral, it's interesting. i love your book, by the way. and you pull us in at the very beginning, by talking about when you first went to the academy. and how they needimmediately leu know how little control over your life at that point. but you talk about a ceremony. you talk about a ritual. and you talked about the most unlikely of heroes. tell our viewers about it. >> in terms of the unlikely hero of the book in my view, is dori miller who is this african american, he comes out of texas, hi his first name is doris, and he said when my mom and dad gave

me the name of doris, i learned to be a boxer. he became a terrific fighter and joined the navy. the bad news is, the navy is in this period of time, segregated. it's racist. on pearl harbor day on battleship "west virginia" dori miller shoots down japanese zeros. and later he was asked why he was so good at it. he said it's just like shooting ducks. you point the barrel where the duck is headed. dori miller was awarded the navy cross, first african american to receive that award. the second highest in the pantheon of medals and went on tragically to die at sea in the war. the next aircraft carrier is going to be named the "uss dori miller." i'm proud to be part of that. >> the book is called "to risk it all." many moments like that in

history from admiral james stavridis. thank you. coming up next, the fed is raising interest rates to get inflation under control but is it moving closer to recession? we'll take a look at economic forecasts. plus, new reporting what's happening inside the biden white house as it struggles to turnaround the president's sinking approval ratings. "morning joe" is coming right back.

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inflation. starts with a simple proposition. respect the fed. respect the fed's independence which i have done and will continue to do. my job as president is not to nominate -- not only nominate highly qualified individuals, but that institution is to give them the space they need to do their job. >> president biden discussing

inflation during his meeting with fed chair jerome powell yesterday. the first such meeting since powell was confirmed for a second term. biden and powell addressed supply chain disruptions and record high gas prices, while going in-depth on the current state of the american and global economies. joining us now former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst steve rattner. steve, i know you've got charts to get to. do you take anything out of that meeting, other than joe biden wanting to show it's the fed acting too slow for inflation? >> it's definitely that out there but also the president recognizing that inflation is probably the single biggest challenge democrats face in the fall elections and 2004. he's been behind on the issue and trying to get ahead of it this being inflation week at the white house. >> let's look at the charts, first one denting real consumption. what do you mean by that? >> what i mean by that, consumers have been spending

quite actively, the line at the top, rate of spending up 15% from february 2020, right before the pandemic. but when you take inflation out, consumers are only spending at a rate of 6% which is still a decent number but you can see the dent that inflation take, real consumption, obviously implications for rate of growth for the economy if the actual real rate of growth drops below zero, then you're potentially heading into recession territory. >> so, we heard yesterday from the president, this new plan in "the wall street journal." we had brian deese on as well, talking about the ways they're approaching this problem, that you lay out in the chart which is is the fed which is getting at the deficit and which is ending the war in russia. all sort of long-term solutions to something that's right in front of people. do any of those help in the near term? >> no, those certainly don't help in the near term because as you say, those are long-term issues. >> right.

>> there's another things i talk about doing in the short term that may help with the margin. frankly, there's politics here and some of the things that they could help to do more, they're not willing to do for a variety of reasons, next, all of the tariffs that president trump put on goods are still there. you could take those off. things like that, will have other political implications but they're not willing to do those. >> the second chart, wage increase no, sir match. obviously, wages far outpaced by inflation. >> people feel good, when you look at the wages in the black line. wages are up sharply, up 6% from a year ago. much higher than many years. but then you see the red line which is prices which are 8%. so that affects real purchasing power. real wages are going down. and that is what challenges this economy as well, in terms of avoiding a recession which is to say, the other thing is that when wages -- prices go up past,

even if wages go up fast, not as past it can start a wage price spiral which then people go out and ask for even higher wages to combat the higher prices and you're off to the races there. >> wages up 6% over the last year. that's the biggest jump in 30 years but inflation up 8%. there's your discrepancy on that. let's look at the third chart. consumers saving less, borrowing more. what does that mean for the economy? >> we showed you how people are still buying a fair amount and wages are falling below. and how are people paying for this stuff? the answer is they're starting to borrow more. after 20, 30 years after having gone up a lot during the pandemic when people couldn't spend money. and on the right, the prepandemic level of $1.1 trillion. we talked about the $2 trillion extra money people had during the pandemic.

so that savings rate shows you they're starting to spend it. and the consumer credit law tells ow you can't see it there. the bar is heavier by lower americans who don't have the dollars. interestingly by young people, gen-z and millennials goes out and borrowing. you can't sustain an economy by people borrowing, it's obviously unhealthy in the long run. and creates an economy for recession, and president biden for the democrats. >> so what happens, say, middle of the july, middle of august, when people who have been used to spending cash, real cash, at the gas station, when the gas is about $7 a gallon then. and start using their plastic instead of the cash. and they get in trouble with the credit cards. what happens then? >> that's how you eventually get into a recession, because people are forced to cut back. there's no free lunch, right? at some point, you have to cut back and you have to deal with

those credit card bills. so it creates -- this is where we have the potential for a recession. this is where inflation and recession kind of interact. obviously, on a second level, you have very significant political implications for the democrats. you can go into the fall election with inflation still running probably at 5% or 6%, with gas prices potentially just as high as today. could be higher. a lot of that depends on the war. that is obviously not a great recipe for electable success. >> what's your sense of gasoline availability? do you think there may be gas lines towards the end the summer? >> i don't think there will be gas lines. there's a shortage of diesel that doesn't affect consumers as much. because diesel is heavily used in europe, and they can't get it enough. we export it to them now. gasoline will be sufficient supply. the question is price. price can be anything. it heavily depends on the war. there is a shortage of oil in the world and eu sanctions put on earlier this week.

the yin and the yang towards all of this stuff towards ukraine. you want to solve the problem of the world and ukraine and punish russia or do you want to maintain a reasonable price level because of war, grain, all of the things caught up in the war. >> and, michael, a lot of the solutions that the white house is putting out is long-term solutions but that price of gas is absolutely crushing to anyone filling up the tank in the last months. or been to the grocery store. it truly is. your eyes pop out of your head when you look at that little screen on your gas pump. >> you do, willie, it's frustrating for average moms and dads and joes and janes out there. i have a question for steve. what are consumers supposed to do? they were given all this cash, right? they couldn't spend it. then they go to spend it. then there's supply chain issues and then there's the war. a lot of consumers i talked to,

they feel put upon. they feel like somehow this is their fault which is why they're reacting and responding the way they are, politically, if you will, to what's going on. what are consumers to do here? now, if we go down this road, oh, recession, you can't do that. if you stay on this particular road, well, guess what, gas prices are going to go up and your expenses are going to go up. so what are we to do with the money we do have, with the credit we do have. and how did the white house talk about this in a way that makes sense to people? >> yeah. those are great questions. michael, but they're tough answers, obviously. consumers don't have a lot of choices. what you do see happening in the economy is that consumers are starting, particularly those in middle to lower incomes are starting to trade down in terms of items they buy. instead of branded ketchup, you buy unbranded ketchup, instead

of going to whole foods, you go to a lower priced grocery store. look, we're all paying the price for having overstimulated the economy during the pandemic putting too much money in people's pockets which created this inflation. there's no free lunch here. now, we're all going to have to pay the price in terms of working through this. it's possible to work through it. theoretically possible, although maybe not the most likely scenario through a recession, but we all have to work through it. this is why you look at the poll numbers, long track numbers, the worst i've seen. and people are surprised and there's not much they can do about it. >> 75% wrong track. on the latest nbc news poll. fairly or unfairly this falls son whoever is in the white house. gas prices, people see them

every day when they drive past the gas station. is there anything unilaterally or otherwise that this president can do? we know they're consumed by it we know the white house is responsible for what's happening at gas stations. what can the president be doing differently right now? >> really not much. back in the 70s, we had wage price controls. that didn't work out well. doing something artificial, like putting price controls on gasoline is not something they can do. you can see what's going on in europe, where they have much worse problem than we have here, energy prices which is they're giving rebates and government subsidies and stuff like that to people. you could try to do that. and you have congress -- we know how hard it is to get anything through congress these days. fairly or unfairly, there's a fair amount of fairness, this is self-inflicted by the fiscal policy, the stimulus, as well as by the federal reserve. >> steve rattner, thank you to

see you. nbc's carol lee takes us inside the biden white house adrift, as they put it as the president seeks to regain confidence amid sinking approval ratings. plus eight days now since the massacre at an elementary school in uvalde, texas, officials again offering a new account after the moment the gunman entered the school. we'll have the latest which "morning joe" comes right back. k ♪ ♪ crossed the desert's bare, man. ♪ ♪ i've breathed the mountain air, man. ♪ ♪ of travel i've had my share, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere. ♪ ♪ i've been to: pittsburgh, parkersburg, ♪ ♪ gravelbourg, colorado, ♪ ♪ ellensburg, cedar city, dodge city, what a pity. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere. ♪

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7:00 in the morning at reagan national airport in washington. welcome back to "morning joe." it is wednesday, june 1. with us, we've got the host of "way too early," jonathan lemire he's of course the white house chief of politico. the host of msnbc's "politics nation" and action network reverend al sharpton and editor of the new york board mara gay. michael steele is still with us.

we'll dive into uvalde, texas, where the funerals continue for the 19 children and two teachers killed in last week's shooting. this as new details about the time line of the attack emerge and why officers waited to engage the gunman. nbc news correspondent morgan chesky has more from uvalde. >> reporter: heartbreak hitting home with hundreds saying final good-byes. >> it's sad, man, hits your heart. >> reporter: 21 funerals other the next two week, maite rodriguez was remembered as a sweet soul. he wanted to be a marine biologist. family of neviaeh hernandez whose name is heaven spelled backward. and he liked protecting others. amerie jo garza her family said called 911 that morning. >> i just want to honor her name. i want her to be remembered as the type of person she was. >> reporter: the girl scouts

honoring her with the bronze rose. and high school sweethearts, after irma was killed in her fourth grade classroom, her loving husband died two days later of a heart attack. they leave behind four children. and new witness accounts filling in gaps. >> just chaos, chaos, trying to get to the schools. i was just trying to get to my wife's room and my children's room. >> reporter: selling savannah guthrie he rush to the school and off-duty. saw the officers waiting to engage the gunman. >> there's a lot of scrutiny about the police response. >> oh, yeah. >> what's your take on all of that? >> to me, i believe everyone there was doing the best they could given the circumstances. yeah. i believe everyone there was doing everything in their power. >> reporter: last week, authorities said a teacher left

a door to the school propped open. >> a door was propped open by a teacher. >> reporter: but the texas department of public safety telling nbc news the teacher closed the door after there was a shooter on campus but the door didn't lock. the justice department is expected to begin its review. >> there's no allegation of criminal wrongdoing, gross incompetence, maybe failure to follow training maybe. >> reporter: back at the memorial, uvalde fourth grader isaac perez sending his school mates on the sidewalk. >> they'll be missed by their friends. >> 10-year-olds laid to rest. morgan chesky reporting there. the school police chief is being blamed for telling officers to stay back now has been sworn into the city council. the city's mayor announced pete arrendondo along with other members have officially taken oath of office. the mayor said a swearing in

ceremony yesterday would not take place out of respect for families burying their loved ones. it appears the swearing-in did go ahead, just without the public ceremony. arrendondo who was the commanding officer last week has faced criticism for failure to treat the situation as a hostage, rather than an active shooter and believes children were now at risk. we now know that is not true. the nbc news has reached out to the now city councilmember for comment and received no response. the department of public safety reported that investigators requested a follow-up interview with arrendondo days ago but he's not responded. and no longer cooperating with investigators. officials say that report is not true. back in washington, a bipartisan group of senators will meet to discuss a path forward. a smaller subgroup met yesterday including democrats chris murphy

and kyrsten sinema along with republicans john cornyn and thom tillis. >> so, jonathan lemire, we don't know what's going on inside that room. those conversations whether it's just a gesture, a nod, to doinging in. any progress out of that room, as far as you can tell? >> the senate's off this week. so this is a virtual meeting at this point. the senator who is an advocate, senator murphy, his home state, he's said on one hand, he's optimistic that something can get done. he keeps expectations low. he believes there will be small board measures if that. and as discussed earlier, there are reports that the republicans are trying to shift the conversation. and friends of koren in these meetings is seen as eye a hopeful one that maybe republicans are serious. we heard from mcconnell saying in kentucky he thinks the group should address two things,

school safety and mental health. guns, not either of those things. it seems like there's a discussion to try to change the conversation. no one is saying that mental health is not important. of course it is, but that's not what makes the american problem unique. here in the united states, it's about guns. at least to this point, some of the school safety arguments, narrowing it down to one means in and out. those have been dismissed out of hand for public safety experts saying that makes it far worse, not just for a shooter but things like fires. at this point, it remains to be seen. senator murphy said he think it's a stretch here, a week to ten days when they've got to get something done or they lose momentum and nothing will happen at all. >> we know that mitch mcconnell sort instructed that group. and unclear if there's anything more than optics at play here? >> absolutely. hopefully, they do get something accomplish that would be great. i think the idea that this is

all that's possible is infuriating to the majority of the american people. this is extremely granular. this is a group of people who will so far has not been able to deliver what the american public really needs and is asking for on a whole host of issues. and it just shows what the power of the filibuster looks like in the united states senate. i'm getting calls from friends who live abroad. from friends who are from outside the united states, and they just don't understand how it can be that when a majority of americans support basic things like background checks that is just not happening. in congress. and, of course, i think while it is important to keep the momentum up on this moment, of this opportunity, it's also important to kind of really make the case, i think, for biden to the american people, that, hey, you know, we don't have to have a minortarian government.

and why it's happening. even the majority of gun owners support things like background checks. i think it's really about walking and chewing gum at the same time. the american people are having a hard time, understandably, understanding why nothing can get done when even gun owners support these bake measures. so, i do think that it's up to the white house to express that. and also, just politically, i mean, you would hope that they would have the wherewithal to make that case with the midterms coming up. >> rev, we're looking at one poll that shows 81% of americans support expanding background checks. another poll from politico having it at 88%. 84% of the country for red flag laws. that's not just democrats. that's not progressives, that's gun owners, as mara said, that's republicans, conservatives as well. that's the frustration, we have heard from president biden and from senator murphy who has made this is central initial his political career, gun safety.

there's so much more that could be done and yet here we are sort at the table looking at scraps. >> well, it ought to be one of the central things from the democrats as a whole doing the midterm elections, not just senator murphy. you're right, the president has raised it but they need to amplify it. i mean, we are talking about, we had two massacres within two weeks. both by 18-year-olds with ar-15. if we can't make progress on this now, when are we going to do it? i mean, both of these massacres, within two weeks, we haven't even finished the funerals in buffalo, before we see 19 school children killed in texas. both 18-year-olds that had ar-15s. now, if the republicans can't move now, then it is not being opportunistic for the democrats to say this is why they have to go in the midterm elections. and when mnl comes back talking about health care or, first of

saul, yes, we need to deal with mental health care, absolutely. which is why we don't need people that have not been dealt with, with their mental melt health issues to be able to legally buy ar-15s. the problem at buffalo was not just mental health. i'm not minimizing it. the problem is they had access to guns that could make it possible for them to kill 19 people, and 10 people at a time. you have to take the guns out. and then deal with all of the other issues that are part of it. and i think as it's an insult to the american public to act like, well, if we just act like everybody who has a mental health all right that we're fine, no, we're not fine. there's no reason for people whether they have mental health problems or not to wipe out dozens of people like that. >> as we sat here on the set, we were talking about 10-year-olds being murdered in their

classroom. and you were flying out to give a eulogy for an 86-year-old grandmother killed in the i will of a grocery store. what's it like in a church vying to soothe a family while their grandmother has been shot senselessly shot looking for groceries. >> the hardest part for me, and i've gone through eulogy situations. the hardest part was when her son told me that his father had gotten ill and she would go every day to see the father. they wheel the father into the funeral. all through the funeral, through my eulogy, through vice president harris speech, i kind of made her speak, she didn't want to speak, the father was in the wheelchair just crying and moaning. and that is what got me. because he will not see her come see him every day. and their bond being broken, i

think that is what got to me more than anything. these are real human beings who built lives together. and because we don't have the kind of, in my opinion, commitment to take guns off, we could not even show a body, they cremated her because of what ar-15 shots do to people. the same is happening in texas. you can imagine that a loved one is dead, and you can't even see the body because they're head is shattered or some other parts of their body. and it's different with each one of them. it is just heartbreaking. and i think heartbreaking is not even the word that can describe the feeling. >> and shattered not in a war zone, shattered in an elementary school. i think mrs. whitfield was married more than 50 years. she had just come back from visiting him. >> stopped at the grocery store to get groceries. >> guns obviously front and

center with president biden. we were talking about inflation a minute ago with steve. and now we're learning that president biden is pushing that amid his own sinking approval ratings. nbc news correspondent kelly o'donnell has details. >> reporter: a crisis about the cost of everyday things. gas prices hitting another all-time high, $4.62 for a gallon of regular. >> i think it's absolutely disgraceful. >> reporter: at the white house, a renewed push to acknowledge what americans are feeling. >> we're just in a difficult time right now with this inflation. >> reporter: in the oval office a rare in-person meeting between the president and the federal reserve chairman who has ratcheted up interest rates trying to tame inflation. >> to discuss my top priority, and that is addressing inflation. >> reporter: the president also published an opinion piece with his steps to fight inflation. a recent nbc news poll showed just 33% of americans approve of

the president's handling of the economy. just paying for basics like rent is a constant worry for a single mother of two tiara. >> within the next couple of weeks me and my kids can possibly be on the streets because you know, the prices of everything keep going up. >> reporter: her rent in nevada just went up 25%. >> it's a lot, i try not to get emotional about it but it's a heavy load to carry. >> reporter: back at the white house, president biden has been rattled by his sinking poll numbers and pressing aides for a more compelling message and sharpen strategy to improve inflation and political standing. one democratic lawmaker has said the white house has failed to put forward an intellectually honest plan to combat inflation. the president's adviser on inflation -- >> he's made it very clear communicating very clearly, that's his top economic priority. >> nbc news' kelly o'donnell

there. you heard the next guest reporting in kelly's piece. carol lee joins us part of it and with a new article. carol, you're reporting sharing a byline with many colleagues on this. what did you find out where the frustration is coming from? >> well, willie, really, the broad frustration in the white house is there's a feeling the president's message is not getting through. particularly on the economy. i think that's why you've seen them try to really re-emphasize, these going to focus on inflation in the month of june. with the fed meeting, he's going to speak on friday, they're blitzing air waves with cabinet officials, things like that. but the president is also frustrated about his sinking poll numbers. they continue to drop. even one person telling us and others echoed this that he's dismayed that his numbers are lower than former president

trump's. that's something that he can't get his head around how that's happening. and then there's this general feeling that he just can't catch a break. meaning crisis after crisis is piling up. while officials say he recognizes that's part of the job. the frustration is there are times when something happens, unexpected and his administration teams to be caught flat-footed the baby formula shortage, for instance. one white house official told us that he's heard the president say recently that president -- he used to remark that president obama had anything but the locust land on his desk. and he now understands what that's like. that's the kind of sentiment that we heard from talking to more than two dozen officials inside the white house. outside the white house, on capitol hill, democratic donors, people who are having conversations with president who say in this particular moment, he's frustrated and he's pushing his team for a sharper message. he wants a more compelling

strategy that's working. he doesn't feel like things are working. i think that's part of why we've seen him write this pair of op-eds in the last couple of days. so, they're trying different things. and while he's supposed to double-down on his message that republicans are extreme, this ultra maga message, he wants his aides to come up with more, that that's not enough. >> hey, carol, jonathan, nice story. with the democrats, many of them out of control, at least to some degree, and ron klain asks every day about the price of gas. sources tell us. that's just one moment they can't get their hands around. as you said, the president frustrated with getting the message out. well, that blame lies with staff. do you think according to your reporting that we could see a shake-up in the west wing before long? >> it's a great question,

jonathan. look, we talked to a number of people saying there's a lot of speculation, always is when a white house is under such pressure whether there will be a staff shake-up. what we're today, that's very unlikely to happen until after the midterm elections-there are people coming, going now but they're lower-level staffers, not necessarily at the top senior levels. and what we're today, ron klain, the chief of staff is expected to stay through the midterms although he could leave by the end of the year. and that he has had conversations with people about what his next steps might be. the white house says that he has not set any time line for his time as chief of staff. but, look, president biden, anyone who's covered him knows he's very loyal. he has staff who's been with him for a very long time. he's not someone who likes to fire people or get rid of people. unlike the trump administration and this administration, firing people or getting rid of people

is not seen as a message of strength. it's more seen as a weakness or admitting that something is wrong. so, what we're told is that things are like -- largely here to stay, until after the midterms. >> so, mike, what's your sense of the frustration inside the oval office, specifically with the president? because really if you look down the road there's not a clear moment where things get better before the midterms. >> 75% wrong track. the price of gas is six, seven bucks in some places. groceries through the roof. it's hard to see how things get better for the president short term. >> he's been at this a long time politically and he's only been president a year and a half. one adjective used to describe this white house by the president himself in the introduction to the speech is that they are rattled. from my information, i will tell you, i don't think he is rattled. i think he's very frustrated.

and he's very angry. >> frustrated with who? circumstances? >> frustrated with the circumstances. nobody can tell you when you're sworn in as president of the united states, by the way, get prepared, a year from now, ukraine's going to be at war. it's going to alter the world economy, not just our economy. but, carol, one of the things i think does interest people, is according to your reporting, your information, the word "frustrated" how frustrated was the president of the united states when baby formula suddenly became a scarcity on the shelves? >> yeah, we're told that he was very frustrated by that. and there was a feeling that his administration would not have been on top of it as they could have been, and at least that was the public perception of that. perhaps he was not read in to the extent he should have been read in soon enough. it's one of those things. to your point, the problems and

things landing on the president's desk, they're not just run-of-the-mill crisis that you fuel up and they go away. this is a once in a generation crisis. war in ukraine, war in europe. gas prices, inflation. they're all heavy things and all happening at once. now is that is fuelling the frustration. now, white house officials say that the president is not frustrated. he understands it as part of the job. that is not what our reporting showed, after talking to a number of people. it would stand to reason that he would be frustrated because the country is frustrated in this particular moment. so, the baby formula is just one example of something that is -- was a crisis and still is a crisis. that cuts at exactly what affects people's lives. and this is something that the president is very attuned to. he wanted solutions that people

will feel at home. so when there are problems that people feel acutely at home it's something that exacerbates its frustrations. >> mara, this is the job, isn't it, the president of the united states, you don't know what's around the corner. sometimes, a crisis comes -- you can expect it always does, in fact, as president of the united states, and in this case with inflation and everything else that's piling up. it's just not clear how he gets around that next corner. >> there seems to be a disconnect between the messaging from the white house that sometimes is the right message, maybe not loud enough or emergent enough or not big enough. and i think what the american people are feeling and the president is known as the emphasizer in chief. i don't know if it's a personal problem, but it does lead you to wonder what kind of staff situation may be at hand in the white house. some kind of chaos, there are a lot of stories as well, about what's going on with the vice president, her staff. there's a lot of questions about

why that disconnect is happening. i also just have to say, coming into this job, yes, it's true, you could never prepare. i don't want the job of president. it's a tough job. but we seem to be in a series of crises. the president came in, in the middle of a one in a lifetime pandemic. on the heels of the traffic of white supremacy and extremism. i think the writing was on the wall to sort of come in with urgency, and we don't always see that from the white house. even though i think the president understands. it's not guesting through. >> there's also -- go ahead, mike. >> the interesting thing to your point. he becomes president of the united states. and as you pointed out, we're in a pandemic. people are dying globally to a virus. and this country suddenly seizes upon the fact he has one political party, the republican party saying don't take the virus -- don't get the vaccine. don't get the vaccine. and you get the leader of that political party actually going

around -- up until this particular day, undermining the fundamentals of this democracy. everything is rigged, the election was rigged. they should put me back in the white house. so that's one of the things he's got to deal with but it's a huge cloud that hangs over the republic. >> there's that. and this white house is also dealing with problems where they're not just -- not doing tell efforts, but their efforts to break down the senate can go anywhere necessarily whether on guns or voting rights. but i want to get you talking about staff. my friend as politico had a story about african americans who departeded white house. let's be clear, this administration has the first african american vice president. and jean pierre as press secretary. there are key people in posts. an exodus of staffers as well.

the white house has pushed back on this. but my colleagues spoke to a number saying we feel like we're not getting a fair shake here, our voices are not heard. what is your sense of that? >> let me say this, not only do i give credit to the administration for the two he named, he was the first black secretary of defense. we've never had a black woman in the pentagon and washington. the cabinet. at the top level, we have not had as many blacks empowered as we've seen with this administration. and i think one of the things and i read the piece you referred to, yes, with cedric richmond leaving because of the concern of midterm elections you do have someone like susan rice, and people like trey baker who has won the confidence of a lot of us in the civil rights community. what you have not seen with some of the blacks that have left,

the amorosa called donald trump a bigot. i think with the turnover with the access to this administration and working with them has not in any way been abated. but i do think they should be conscious of what some of the staff members said. and addressing the point on staffing, what i found and i have had access to the last three or four presidents. although i wouldn't visit donald trump. we did talk on the phone. i think the problem is not the staffing of being -- i've seen the staff have to push the president. in this case, i see a president pushing the staff. i think biden is more passionate and committed than a lot of that can keep up with. the same with kamala harris. sometime, when you have a leader that's saying let's go and you have people that want to weigh everything politically, when you have a leader saying we're going to do this anyway because it's

the right thing to do therein lies some of the problem. but i really think, and we've had our days to disagree. in the '90s, i fought biden on the crime bill. i've not seen anyone more passed on a lot of these things than joe biden. i think biden himself fought to get the executive order that he signed last week around policing. when some of the staff was saying should we wait until after the midterms. i think it's a question of the staff keeping up with the president in this case. doesn't mean i'm going to agree with him on everything. i will give him credit on where i think he earns it. >> and as mike said, dealing with the senate that doesn't want to get anything done at all. reverend al sharpton, thank you. carol lee, thank you. and the article tighted "inside a biden white house." thanks, carol. russia has started holding nuclear drills on the advance of president biden's decision to

send rockets to ukraine. we'll have the latest on the escalation of that when "morning joe" comes right back.

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in 2008, a 5-4 supreme court decision in the case of district of columbia versus heller ruled for the second time the second amendment protects the right to own a gun. justice anthony scalia and john roberts who wrote the dissent clashed over the meaning of the second amendment. arguing the extensions only to the firearms and well regulated militia. since that case, the heller has moderated gun policy in america. however, in "the new york times," the law clerks who drafted the argument politicians on both sides of the aisle have misconstrued the heller case.

joining us co-author of the piece, attorney john bash. you write this, despite our fundamental disagreements, we're both concerned heller has misused important policy debates about our nation's gun law. in the mean years since the heller decision, congress has not enacted significant new laws for firearms. many cite heller as the reason. but they are wrong. most of the gun regulations are political and policy based and not legal. it's laws that never get enacted rather than ones that are struck down because of unduly expansive reading of heller. we are aware of no evidence of any perpetrator of a mass shooting was able to obtain a firearm because of the struck down heller. but heller looms over most debates about gun regulation and it often serves as a useful foil

for those who would like to deflect responsibility. either for their policy choice to oppose or the failure of legislators and citizens that the proposal should be enacted. john, let's take a step back here, since you're on the inside of this debate. this ruling and decision. what does heller say actually and what does it not say? as you say, it's been held up by so many people in so many gun cases in the decades since. >> sure. and thanks for having me on. heller was pretty narrow on what it actually held. it held only that the government can't deprive citizens of a handgun in the home. basically, you have a second amendment, individual right, to have a handgun to defend your family. there's a case pending right now in the supreme court that will be decided in the next month or so, about whether that extends outside the home. kate my co-author and i disagree on that. i think it should be extended

outside the home but we'll wait to see what the supreme court decides on that. the point of our piece, all of these other questions, background check, red flag laws, those are policy debates. but it would be very hard to read anything in heller to forbid legislatures from enacting those sorts of reforms if they decide they're in the interest of the citizenry. >> so, john, i guess the question is where is the line drawn in terms what a pretty citizen can own or have inside his or her home to defend him or herself. you talk about hand guns in the heller decision. does it say anything about semi-automatic rifles like the af fooen? >> it does not say that. and lower courts have grappled with that issue since. there was a divided decision in the d.c. circuit about ar-15s, when then judge fiorina, if i remember correctly, dissented

saying because ar-15s are so commonly owned they ought to be a right to own ar-15s. but i'm not sure if that should be decided in the future and lines drawn on what sort of firearms protected and what aren't. as we said in the piece, red flags considered, red flag laws, background checks is that we may disagree with the measures but that's an issue for democracy. that's not an issue that's been constitutionalized by the supreme court. kind of what prompted the piece, for me at least, i saw liberal commentators saying things without heller in uvalde, and el paso, these other tradition eyes did would not have happened. but the laws they say would have prevented those tragedies were not bound by heller. heller was about a handgun in a home. as we say in the piece, we're not aware of any evidence that any law struck by heller enabled a mass shooting ever.

>> so, michael steele, heller has been held up as a defense of owning any kind of weapon. it's a broad defense of the second amendment but as john says it applied to hand guns in the homes but didn't say anything about ar-15, used in most of these mass shootings in the last 15 years? >> yeah, willie, that goes to the heart of the conversation that the country needs to have, that the country wants to have. as we showed in the last hour, where americans stand on a lot of this polling. so, john, the question to you as someone who has been inside that rarefied bubble, who understood the both legal and mental approach that the justices take to these complicated issues. why do our legislators still get it so wrong? is it because the court is not clear in what its direction is on these issues? or they just -- because they're leaving so much wiggle room.

or is it that the politicians just want to use whatever pronouncement the courts put forth to make their particular case? as you just cited, because of heller, saying of that, this. and conservatives saying thank god for heller for that. where do we go with this in terms of bouncing the ball back and forth? >> well, i think the actual debate, policy debate, around gun laws is really complicated. just take background checks. a lot of gun owners would say that even if you closed the so-called loophole for private sales, there's so many black market sales. there's so many gun burglaries. that all you're doing is burdening private gun owners and criminals and people who want to shoot up schools will easily be able to get guns either way. that can be a hard argument to articulate. and whole group of arguments for

that. and sometimes, we say our hands are tied because of that case so we're not going to engage on these very complicated arguments about value judgments and predictive judgments so, i think it's right that just blaming it on the supreme court can often be an easy way to avoid more complicated and nuanced disputes. >> john, you and kate make the case, a very sound case, that heller does not tie the hands of the legislature. and so what would be some constitutionally sound law that could be enacted? you know, donald trump, i believe, banned bump stocks but there's still loopholes where people can get around that. what about high-capacity -- high-capacity magazines, banning a federal ban on that? what are some examples of laws that would still be constitutionally sound? >> so, there's no question that all of those proposals would not violate heller. now, the supreme court is probably going to have to face a

question in the future about things like which guns are you entitled to have. i mean, if the legislature passed a law that said you could only have muskets that would probably be struck down as unconstitutional. when it comes to types of firearms and quantity of ammunition, i think there are questions there, i suspect that the supreme court will give democracy ample room to work as long as they act reasonably and leave the questions for the public debate. but one thing that heller really emphasized with the immense public interest in preventing felons and the mentally ill from getting firearms. my prediction is, of course, i don't want to speak for the supreme court that would give steps to keep guns out of the hands of felons and mentally ill. that would be red flag laws or a number of different measures.

they recognized as only important interest in heller. >> both of those areas being discussed by that small group of senators. former law clerk to justice scalia, john bash. fascinating. the piece in the "times" is titled "we clerked for justices stevens and scalia" america is getting heller wrong." while herschel walker said former president trump is taking too much credit for his successful campaign. plus, we'll have an update on where pennsylvania's primary race stands now more than two weeks after the election. what's going on in pennsylvania? we'll look into it, when we come right back.

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great libraries, the free library in philadelphia. it's 7:45 in the morning. pennsylvania senate candidate dave mccormick is asking the state now to recount votes in several precincts by hand, as officials work to declare a winner in the republican primary race that remain two weeks later, too close to call. the mccormick campaign called it several, quote, abnormalities, calling it what it calls inconsiste inconsistencies. mccormick is hoping the recount will give him enough votes to surpass trump-endorsed mehmet oz. at the time it was triggered, dr. oz led the race by 1,000 votes that has not stopped him from what president trump declard encouraged him to do, declare himself a victory. in a video. >> i want to take a moment to express my deep thanks to the great people of pennsylvania who

have joined me on this journey and i'm blessed to have earned the presumptive nomination to the united states senate. >> he held off for a couple weeks and did what president trump told him to do, just call yourself the winner. and the recount is under way. meanwhile in georgia, brian kemp easily won georgia's gubernatorial primary defeating david perdue by more than 50 points in that race. but the former president appears to be claiming voter fraud. in an email sent to his supporters yesterday, trump save america pact, linked to an article falsely claiming trump's victory over perdue was ill leecht. he won by 52 points. and herschel walker, the former football star turned republican nominee for republican senate in georgia, now says he's mad at former president donald trump tour taking a little too much credit for walker's decision to run for office.

>> one thing that people don't know is, president trump never asked me. he never asked. i heard it on television, he's going to ask herschel to run. president trump never came out and said, herschel, will you run for senate? he never asked. i'm mad at him because he never asked but he's taking credit that he has. >> herschel talking to killer mike there in the state of georgia. trump stumped for walker earlier this year. the former president publicly encouraged walker to enter the primary during an appearance on a radio show last june, almost two months before walker announced his run. >> he told me he's going to. and i think he will. i had dinner with him a week ago. he's a great guy. he's a patriot. and he's a very loyal person. he's a very strong person. they love him in georgia. so, i think he'd win. i think it would be very, very hard to beat herschel. i mean, they do -- they have the

ballads to herschel. they sing them all the time. they still sing them. i think beating him would be very tough. >> that was back in june last year. walker won his primary race in an absolute landslide. he will face democrat incumbent senator raphael warnock. >> jonathan, you have to wonder what this tit for tat does in the locker room. walker/doug flutie, how does that play out? >> years later. i'm not aware of the ballad of herschel walker but i'm sure mike can hum a few bars. he takes comments like this, i'm sure we won't hear anything at all from donald trump, speaking that herschel walker is ungrateful for his support. i also note he's suggesting that david perdue lost and wants toe

go the brad raffensperger route again, finding the votes. that probably won't work for him. that's a tough phone call. >> god save america, really, seriously. herschel walker for the united states senate. the former president of the united statesfixed, was rigged. god help us. >> it's become the default position, mark. mehmet oz went out and declared himself the winner too. he held off a little while. president trump said say you're the winner, and he did it. >> it's a race to the bottom. it's not just happening in the republican party. what happens is, as you normalize this behavior, what you see across the country is that officials in all kinds of positions of power, including mayors, start refusing to release their taxes because, well, the president of the united states didn't do it why do they need to do it? the bar for public service has been lessened, lowered. you saw it from the uvalde police department, the kind of statement they put out late last

week. just kind of thanking everyone for the support of law enforcement and then reminding everyone how great it was that no law enforcement officers were killed. of course we're happy that's the case, but we're not so happy that they didn't succeed in their task at protecting children. i think across the board, we have a crisis of public service, and i think it's really demoralizing to your point, mike, that increasingly young americans are growing up in a country where they don't even know what a public servant is supposed to look like. all is not well with the state of the union. >> in fact, it's a strategy, isn't it, to create a cloud of doubt around things and hopefully come out of that victorious somehow in the end. always great to have you with us. thanks for being here. still ahead, one of the largest surveys of hispanic voters in recent months find donald trump among the top choice as potential 2024 presidential candidates. we'll dig into those numbers and

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it is 7:53 in the morning. premiering tonight a limited series called "field reports of paolo ramos" explores the right ward drift in some places of latino voters ahead of november's midterm elections. >> i have six kids in total and two little ones are currently home schooling. i pulled them out of school in 2020. >> why? >> there was a lot going on, but 2020 for me was -- what i like to call my political awakening. i have never been politically inclined, ever. my father was, so i grew up hearing about a lot to do with politics. >> yes. >> possible communist takeover and all this craziness, but in my mind, i thought this is my dad and trauma from being a political prisoner. i always shied away from that

and resented it. but i feel in 2020 there was no denying what was going on, and for me, it hit most with the children. >> what are they learning here that they're not learning in school? >> for me, it's safety. i know that they are not going to learn certain positions. >> like what? >>, for example, i don't have anything against the lbgtq community at all. i don't think the kids should have it pushed on them. >> such a fascinating series. joins us now. great to have you with us. there's so much in there to talk about. one of the big themes of the piece in this limited series that you put together on msnbc, is not treating latino voters and latinos in america as this monolith which a lot of progressives have in the past and make assumptions on their views like immigration and others. what did you find in your conversations? >> i think that's the big story,

right. donald trump did do ten points better in 2020 than in 2016, and i think many people dismiss that, right. many people just saw the banner of joe biden winning, that's 60% of latino voters. i think the 10% shift is important. when you go to a battleground state like florida when we think of 2020 we heard that story of communism every single day. many latino voters chose trumpism because of that fear and that trauma. what we found this time is that today's polarized environment, the disinformation, the culture wars that we see every day on tv, the extremism, all of that is feeding off that fear of communism and disinformation, and specifically, you see that in the classrooms. that's the clip that we just saw right now, where what we found is that a lot of latina moms are not finally being awakened through these culture wars. they're taking these wars to the school board meetings and classrooms. you hear them regurgitating many of the same talking points that

white moms do. they're against critical race theory, they're against lbgtq issues, the covid-19 restrictions, but in this case, that fear of communism makes it even more powerful, right. it makes the paranoia more forceful, communism infiltrating these classrooms and that is a trend we have to keep an eye out. >> it's important to recognize what that is in rooted in, where that fear of communism comes from, and then what do they believe practically? what does communism look like in the united states? what are they afraid of? >> i think that's the problem, right. they believe in that something that republicans were successful at, right. you know, they really, really exploited that fear of communism and trauma that so many cubens, my family is cuban, many folks in my family believe that as well, this exploitation of that fear and they made many people believe that a vote for joe biden was a vote for communists. communism is nowhere close in the united states as we know. it's someone like the woman we

saw on the screen, her father fled cuba. she literally took her kids out of school in 2020 because she was scared that communism was infiltrating this country. she believes when you say critical race theory, she will tell you that is an indoctrination and an agenda being pushed out. i think the question for us is, is that paranoia of communism really blinding them so much that they're unable to see sort of like these -- the real problems in this country, or is the question of communism and this trauma simply a facade for a deeply rooted problem that we have in the latina community, forcing us to ask questions is there racism among us. do we feel white supremacy and are we part of the problem. that's sort of what we have to wrestle with. >> do you think that part of this is an undercurrent of social conservatism that hasn't been acknowledged by the democratic political class in making the assumption that

latino voters are more progressive? >> absolutely. i think one of the things that we found throughout the entire trip is that almost every single person we talked to, including the woman you saw on the screen, every single one of them was a former democrat, believed they had to be democrat at one point they voted for obama. i found people that volunteered for bernie sanders. at one point they believed they didn't have the space to sort of entertain their more conservative values in this democratic party, right. they didn't fit the specific democratic party of what this party is asking latino voters to look like. i think that is, at least the heart of what is driving many of these latino voters, the disenchantment with the democratic party. the culture wars and what you're seeing now is sort of uncovering these very innate social conservative values that many latinas have and maybe now with trump they feel okay saying that with pride. >> michael steele, so fascinating to watch the trend lines here.

president george w. bush won a larger share of latino voters than republicans had a feeling that they could swing to the republican county, swings back to barack obama, away from donald trump, but in 2020, as said, they went back in the direction of a republican and donald trump. >> we are light years away from george bush at this point. i think -- and i think paolo is, you know -- piece really exposes that. that's what i want to ask. i want to focus on the point you made about these voters wanting to entertain their democratic values. how does that look? i mean, you know, have they always been anti-lbgt or are they suddenly discovering that? what were those values that suddenly now have this fresh,

you know, look or feel to them because of donald trump? i would think that there's always been some space there where those concerns relative to black folks and crt and the telling of our history versus the telling of hispanic histories, or the relationship yuan with the broader community of gay and lesbian people, i don't know how -- what this woman thinks her children are going to encounter when they leave her home. >> that's the question i had. >> you know. what does that -- >> as a gay woman myself, having this conversation with someone that in my eyes perhaps felt uncomfortable in front of someone like me, i mean it was a hard conversation to have. i think that's the question. no one in my face told me they were against lbgtq issues. no one told me they were against myself. no one said they were racists or didn't understand latinos. the talking point again, we are doing this because we want to protect the children. we are doing this because communism is intill traiting our

classes. they are indoctrinating our children to be gay. to your point it's hard to understand if the root is truly that these are conservative values that have always been there or simply that they're going back to a car they know how to use the communism card, and i'm in no way trying to speak for them, but that's the nuance that we have to -- that we have to really understand because not understanding that means not understanding the largest minority block in this country. it means not understanding that there is a possibility that, as we shift to this majority minority country and as this assumption that latino voters will take us to this country where we do talk about racism openly, we do acknowledge and approach and welcome people like myself that are gay, if latinos suddenly turn the other way that assumption of this american story is distorted. >> you're also in the series dig into the important question of immigration and the nuance

there. you speak with the republican nominee for florida's 13th u.s. congressional district about one of her top campaign issues. let's listen. >> as a candidate, when you're making these what it seems like without data, baseless allegations that child migrants are crossing the border because they are being exploited sexually, what information are you giving your constituents to make actually informed decisions? >> on that? >> on that, yeah. >> i've been to the border three times and talked to countless activists and organizations. if you're trying to say it's not an issue -- >> it is an issue. of course it's an issue. >> i do think that, regardless -- >> paint the whole border issue doesn't that take away from humanitarian crisis? >> no. because what happens is, is when you're encouraging people to come here illegally, they're exploited in the process. to go back to what you're saying, whether it's 200 kids or 2,000. >> of course.

>> it's too many. sniflds be interested to hear your reflections on that conversation. as you know, we've talked to many latino voters and politicians who say democrats take us for granted on the issue of immigration. we came here legally and think people should wait for their place in line and come here legally as well and don't like what they're seeing at the border either. what did you find on your conversations of immigration? >> with someone like her, she has made -- this is a mexican american running in district 13 in florida, has made the pillar of her campaign immigration, right. but not talking about immigration as the humanitarian crisis that is ongoing. she's actually sort of framed it around this idea that children are being sex trafficked at the border. that is her main message, which is a reflection of a qanon obsession as you know that has been spreading around for anyone years, right, this idea of painting the border as democrats that are pushing children around, which again is not

necessarily based on fact. to your point, this proves even within latinos there is a big divide about how you see the u.s./mexico border. the question comes down to democrats. something like title 42, it's hard for me to say are they for or against it? do they want to fix the asylum crisis or not? i think this shows you the sort of questions they're struggling with. you have two sections of latino voters in opposite sides of the spectrum, and i don't know the strategy around these issues will work in the end. do you go for someone like or progressive from arizona. >> your series in the wake of an nbc poll about hispanic voters and democrats still their favored party but republicans showing growing strength and among them, donald trump is their most single preferred candidate among 2024 possibilities running for president. the president you talked to for the series what were their opinions of donald trump? >> the interesting thing as i

said, the majority voted for democrats. i would say almost 99% of them also voted for donald trump. one of the most striking conversations i had was, with a cuban truck driver, came from cuba, came to this country, again, searching for the american dream, was once a democrat, once believed in the ideas of a democratic party, and when i asked him, who is your president, he said donald trump. when i asked someone like that, do you believe joe biden is a legitimate president of this country she said absolutely not. that question of who is -- even that most basic question, now, even you have some latino voters that can't answer that. yes, i think those numbers, i fear, and i believe, they will continue to show that donald trump is their guy. >> quick question, what's your insink on this? do you think a portion of this piece we addressed at the top, gender, crt, being taught in classrooms, do you think you've touched upon just the tip of the spear? >> absolutely. absolutely.

i think there's a lot more and i think -- i think what you're seeing now is people finally, some sectors of latino voters, i don't want to paint a whole picture some people within the latino community finally open an willing to say how they really feel about things, not -- feel comfortable enough to deviate from the stereotype and story about us, i believe a community that is apathetic a community that is open, that believes in the beauty of our diversity. i believe that story of the latino community, but there is a section of us that looks at that and does not want that. that looks at that diversity and wants to be part of the other america. i think we're starting to see what that truth looks like. >> this is such a fascinating examination. it's field report with paolo ramos premieres at 10:00 p.m. on msnbc. you can stream new episodes tomorrow and the next day every time the series airs on peacock. thanks for bringing it us to us

this morning. still ahead this hour, we will tell you about yet another account out of texas from officials on what happened exactly in uvalde eight days ago. just before the gunman entered the school and killed 19 children and their two teachers. plus a bipartisan group of senators working on new gun safety legislation, set to meet again today. are they actually discussing anything that might go far enough to address the crisis of gun violence in the country or even that could be passed in the senate? also ahead, a major defeat for the trump backed durham probe as john durham loses the first case in his investigation into the origin of the trump russia proeds probe. new developments from ukraine as president biden says the u.s. now will send advanced rocket systems to ukraine. "morning joe" is coming right back on a wednesday morning. more protection, more sun, more joy.

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i've lived in san francisco for 20 years. i'm raising my kids here. this city is now less safe for all of us. chesa boudin is failing to hold repeat offenders accountable. he prosecuted zero fentanyl drug dealing cases, even though nearly 500 people have died of overdoses. i'm voting yes on h to recall chesa boudin now. we can't wait one more day when people are dying on our streets.

♪♪ we will begin in texas where the official account has changed again about how the gunman who killed 19 children and their two teachers entered that school in uvalde. last friday you'll remember the director of the texas department of public safety said a teacher had propped open the door through which the gunman entered the school. well now, the agency says the teacher had come back to close the door, but it just failed to lock. this new account comes after an attorney for the teacher told the "san antonio express news" said the teacher did prop open the door to carry road from her car to the school but when she saw the gunman crash the car into the ditch she went back inside to get her phone to report the crash to police. the attorney says when the teacher heard people at the funeral home across the street yell that 18-year-old had a gun, she kicked the rock away from

the door, it closed and she ran back into the school. the attorney telling the newspaper, quote, she remembers pulling the door closed telling 911 he was shooting. she thought the door would lock because that door is always supposed to be locked. officials say they now are looking into why that door did not lock. meanwhile, funeral services will continue today for the victims of the shooting there. 10-year-old jose flores jr. will be laid to rest with teacher irma garcia and her husband joe who suffered a fatal heart attack two days after his wife's death. yesterday the first of the burials took place as loved ones said goodbye to 10-year-old amerie jo garza and maite rodriguez. at her funeral garza was awarded one of the highest honors in the girl scouts, the bronze cross, award given those who save or attempt to save a life at risk of their own. back in washington, a bipartisan

group of senators will meet again today to discuss a path forward on gun safety legislation. a smaller subgroup met yesterday, including chris murphy and krysten sinema, along with republicans john cornyn and thom tillis. one senator in the larger group tells nbc news senator cornyn's participation is considered a good sign, since uvalde, of course, is in cornyn's home state and given his personal closeness to minority leader mitch mcconnell. at an event yesterday in kentucky mcconnell was asked about those talks. >> we had a group led by senator cornyn and senator murphy on the democratic side discussion how we might be able to come together to target the problem which is mental illness and school safety. we get back at it next week and hope to have results. >> joe, that's mitch mcconnell in kentucky as more 10-year-olds are laid to rest in the next couple days and we change the

timeline again of what happened inside that school. many people noted watching leader mcconnell yesterday say, we're talking about school safety and we're talking about mental illness. no mention of guns in his comments there. >> well, i mean, that's the same thing we saw up on the stage in texas a week ago, when one texas official after another texas official lied. they lied about the timeline, about what happened. they lied about what happened inside the school. they lied about what happened outside the school. mike barnicle, they lied about what was at issue. they kept talking about mental health. again, that's the distraction this time. there's always a different distraction, whether it's violent video games or whatever the distractions were in the past, now we're moving on to mental health. of course, we've been talking about mental health on this show, we've been talking about mental health crisis now for years and talked about the

importance of funding mental health. but these republicans, especially the governor of texas, he talks about mental health to hide behind mental health, while 10-year-old children are buried, while more american children are killed by guns every year than police officers are killed in the line of duty. then u.s. troops are killed in the line of duty. it's just another distraction. so yes, great, you want to talk about mental health, let's finance mental health the way it's supposed to be and let's make sure -- let's make sure that mental health practicer ins are actually paid a decent wage so they can take on even more clients. the whole system is rigged right now against addressing mental health, but in part, mike, that's because the republicans have slashed funding for mental health, have slashed funding for medicaid, have slashed funding time and time again.

so they can't hide behind this. it looks, when you hear mitch mcconnell talking about mental health, when you hear mitch mcconnell talking about school safety, it looks like another dodge. >> well, you're correct on all accounts, joe. there's no doubt about it. mental health is a huge issue in this country, as it is in nearly every civilized country in the world right now, given all the complexities of culture in the 21st century. there's a larger issue than mental health here. that's being able to walk into a gun store at the age of 18 and buy two assault weapons as a happy birthday gift to yourself. to buy more than $3,000 worth of weaponry and ammunition and then go to a school, specifically to kill. that's a bigger issue than mental health is. you know, it's interesting, at least to me it is, yesterday early in the morning, i got up and i was going down to the

grocery store very early and i was following a school bus and the school bus made four stops along the way before i broke off and took a left and went to the store. at each stop, i was looking at the parents of the children and the parents brought these children, they were grammer school kids, young, third, fourth, fifth grade, at each stop, the parents hugged each one of their kids as they put them on the bus. that's a huge issue in this country now. we have millions of parents worried about their children's safety in school. they were perhaps worried about it a bit prior to uvalde, texas, but today it's consuming. it's consuming in this country. i don't know how long it's going to be consuming, but it's there right now, and it's a little bit bigger than mental health. it has to do with school safety, their children's safety, and the

availability of weaponry. >> well, mike, as you said, every industrialized nation, every western nation, every nation across the globe, they have challenges with mental health. they have challenges with mental health in great britain, and yet in america, about four out of 100,000 people are killed by gunfire every year. in britain, it is 0.004%. it's about -- you're 100 times more likely to be killed by guns in the united states per capita than you are in great britain. michael steele, again, the madness continues. mike talks about these parents who are concerned about their children getting on the school busses and going to school. it's very logical because, again, we showed the stats yesterday -- i don't know if alex has them and can put them up today -- but if you're a

parent, your child, more children are going to be killed this year by guns than police officers are killed in the line of duty. more children are going to be killed by guns this year than u.s. troops in combat. more children are going to be killed this year than black americans are going to be shot by police officers. more americans are going to be killed by police officers in total -- i'm sorry, more children are going to be killed by guns than americans killed by police officers in total. these are issues. why do i bring these issues up? because when it happens, we report on it. we spend a great deal of time reporting on it. and yet, michael steele, you add up all of those numbers, all of those numbers from all of those categories, it still comes out

to less people killed than the number of children who will be killed by gunfire this year. nothing happened after sandy hook. republicans just made excuses. nothing happened after parkland. republicans just made excuses. change the subject. looks like nothing is going to happen after uvalde. looks like they're already trying to change the subject and make excuses. this bloodshed, michael steele, it's on the nra and it's on these cowards in the republican party who refuse to listen to what 88% of americans want with universal background checks and what about 85% of americans want with red flag laws. >> yeah, i think joe, what you're looking at is a political party and leadership that values the fight over inflation, the

insurrectionist efforts by democrats to, you know, groom our children, over the lives of those very same children. i think -- i was struck by the comment of, you know, someone on capitol hill saying that, you know, this is really something interesting that, you know, senator cornyn is at the table. i'm like, what tiz that -- why is that so interesting? why are you so jacked up about that. nothing has happened. he's there as a decoy. he's not there to actually address what the country needs to have addressed at this moment. this is the stall and delay tactic. they've got -- they're not back yet from their memorial day holiday. they're going to be in town for a couple of weeks and then it's off for the fourth of july. they come back for another couple weeks and they're off for august. when does this bill get done? when does all this great

negotiation happening? of course you got mcconnell talking about something that country is not talking about. everybody gets, yeah, mental health, school safety, a part of the conversation, but the crux of it is, what do we do about the guns that are being used, the ar-15s, the access, 18-year-olds, all of those various story lines that are pushing this right in front of us? you're right, joe, more kids will be killed this year than all the other statistics combined you showed because of the lack of serious concern about the fact that more kids will be killed. because if that was a major concern, then guess what? there would be a serious conversation, everything would be on the table, and the leadership on both sides would know exactly where that sweet spot is because the american people are giving them the numbers. 90%, 60%, 70%, around reforms on

background checks, red flag laws, et cetera. it's not like we don't know where the sweet spot is to move the needle here, joe. it's just that the republicans don't want to because the nra has told them not to. because if they do, guess what, we're going to primary you, cut off your checks, and that matters more to them than the lives of the kids being buried. >> apparently, at least, as joe pointed out, means more to them than what public wants. the polling is overwhelming on the few issues, universal background checks, red flag laws, two out of three americans want a ban on the semiautomatic assault rifles like used in uvalde and most other mass shootings lately. this is kind of the formula, isn't it? shock and horror at the beginning. thoughts and prayers. then let's have a conversation about it. let the emotion of this pass and kind of run out the clock without doing anything meaningful? >> i'm struck by one phrase that senator cornyn used and i thought it was significant as a republican leader. he was talking about gun safety.

i think that's all we need to be talking about. gun safety. not gun control. because that's going to make republicans runaway. no one likes to hear the word control. gun safety. you look at the various bills lumped together under what house is going to discuss, protecting our kids act, it's raising the age, prevent gun trafficking, untraceable firearms act, it's incredible we still have person-to-person transfer, much less being 18 and going in and buying a semiautomatic. having someone who is even under age who is able to because there's so many states that have person-to-person transfer. and then just, you know, safe storage of these guns too because it's just -- it's rampant. there's so many things we can do under the arc of gun safety. we're not getting into gun control. we aren't taking guns away. >> what's kind of interesting, at least to me, is in the

politics of this, the democratic party seems to have gone soft on how to approach this in one respect. the obvious target, no pun intended using that word, for grabbing political allies in terms of guns and the danger that guns present every day, is the police. police forces around this country. how is it that the democratic party hasn't realized that go to the cops and say we're on your side. the weaponry that you're afraid of when you get out of a cruiser, when you get out of a car, whether in the bronx, manhattan, chicago, illinois, anywhere, the weaponry of assault weapons you're out gunned immediately, we're here to help you on that. we need your help to join us in this fight. yet, they don't do it. the democrats don't do it. >> guns are being sold at gun shows that are called cop

killers out of a space movie. >> that made the difference at uvalde they were out gunned when they arrived. chicago, over memorial day weekend, 51 people were shot in chicago over the long weekend. nine of them were killed. coming up, a major defeat for a special council john durham who spent three years investigating the trump russia probe. we'll explain when "morning joe" comes right back. comes right back. ♪ baby got back by sir mix-a-lot ♪

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♪♪ making friends again, billy? i like to keep my enemies close. guys, excuse me. i didn't quite get that. i'm hard of hearing. ♪♪ oh hey, don't forget about the tense music too. would you say tense? i'd say suspenseful. aren't they the same thing? can we move on guys, please? alexa, turn on the subtitles. and dim the lights. ok, dimming the lights. being connected. it's vital for every student. so for superintendent of public instruction, tony thurmond, it's a top priority. closing the digital divide, expanding internet access for low-income students and in rural areas. it's why thurmond helped deliver more than a million devices and connected 900,000 students to broadband over the last two years - to enable online learning.

more than 45,000 laptops went to low-income students. re-elect tony thurmond. he's making our public schools when you need help it's great to be in sync with customer service. a team of reps who can anticipate the next step genesys technology is changing the way customer service teams anticipate what customers need. because happy customers are music to our ears. genesys, we're behind every customer smile. ♪♪ let's turn back now to this federal jury investigation that found former hillary clinton attorney michael sussmann not guilty on a charge of lying to the fbi. the trial was part of the

special counsel john durham's investigation in the origin of the trump-russia investigation. the case centered around a september 2016 meeting with then top fbi lawyer james baker where sussmann passed along data he believed indicated a possible communications back chanel between the trump campaign and a russian bank. prosecutors accused sussmann of misrepresenting himself in the meeting telling baker he was passing on the information just as a concerned citizen when prosecutors claim he actually had two clients, the clinton campaign and a tech executive who oversaw research into the russian bank. here is sussmann speaking yesterday after his acquittal. >> first, i told the truth to the fbi and the jury clearly recognized that with their unanimous verdict today. despite being falsely accused, i'm relieved that justice ultimately prevailed in my case. >> durham said he's disappointed in the outcome, but he respects the jury's decision. many on the right held up the sussmann case as proof the trump

campaign and the white house were spied on. they especially used the february court filing from durham to bolster their claims. this fox news headline claimed the filings showed trump tower and the trump white house were, quote, infiltrated through the -- though the filing never used that word. trump claimed the case pointed to a, quote, far bigger crime than watergate. "the wall street journal" editorial board claimed, quote, trump really was spied on. "the new york post" editorial board wrote, "washington post," "new york times" should give back their pulitzer for trump-russia reporting, the word reporting in quotes. here's what we've heard from trump's staunchest allies on capitol hill. >> the latest durham report the clinton campaign, the same group that fearmongered the russian collusion, spied on the president of the united states. he they spied on the president of the united states. they spied and lied. >> you think about they spied on a presidential campaign. that's as wrong as it gets.

then we found out from this filing that they actually spied on the sitting president, which is even worse. >> joe, sussmann is acquitted and the larger story is kind of the fizzling of the durham investigation. he's had three years to prove some deep state conspiracy, which is what the former president is looking for. so far he's come up empty. >> it's just yasa nine and it's been from the start. you know, we -- this all started in march, i believe it was, of 2017 when donald trump said that barack obama was tapping his phones, and it continued. one lie after another lie after another lie was -- which was picked up by all of those news outlets that you just quoted and then barr lets durham start investigating, supposedly investigating, the investigators. there's been absolutely nothing there from the beginning. this pleading that everybody jumped on in february, we did an

entire segment, i mean -- i read it, tried to figure it out for 24 hours, i talked to legal scholars. they said i don't understand this pleading. it looks like it was written by a seventh grader. sure enough, it basically was. and then you see at the end of the day, that this investigation of the deep state, this investigation of the investigators, is much ado about nothing. it's more weirdos, more conspiracy theorists, more freaks and their language actually getting an attorney general to allow durham to go out and make a fool of himself to drag this out years, to make this investigation of the investigators longer than the original investigation, cost millions and millions of taxpayers' dollars and have absolutely nothing to show about it in the end.

you have people being slandered throughout the entire process. willie, let's start with the fbi. let's start with donald trump. let's start with those right wing dominant media people who continue to slander the fbi. let's talk about house republican leaders who slander the fbi day in and day out and have been slandering the fbi day in and day out. because they dare to investigate a politician, a failed game show host, who did one thing after another that raised legitimate suspicions. so here we are after years of slandering the fbi, they have absolutely nothing to show about it. of course, the hilarity of the whole sussmann thing, after we were -- we heard that deep state, the fbi, they were going after poor donald trump, poor donald trump was a victim, well this case was actually sussmann

supposedly lying to the fbi. so durham couldn't even make the fbi the bad guys. durham to bring a complaint where the fbi was the victim of lying. and even that was a lie by durham. they need to shut this down. it is a joke. it started with donald trump lying about barack obama tapping his phones in trump tower and it's ended with this. it's time to put it behind us. >> yeah. the jury voted unanimously to find sussmann not guilty and you wonder how much longer this durham probe will go on when it's uncovered not much anything so far. let's bring into the conversation attorney george conway, a columnist for the "washington post." your reaction to the verdict and the ongoing durham investigation. where is this headed next? >> i hope it's headed into the trash can because it should be -- the justice department should put an end to this and ridiculous investigation now. this case was a joke. the entire durham investigation was a joke.

there was nothing here to begin with. the jury found that it was a joke because the jury came out after the verdict, after a six-hour deliberation basically said, there was nothing here. this case never should have been brought. he should accused of lying about whether or not he was there on behalf of any client. well, if i say that i'm here -- i'm not here on behalf of any dog that doesn't mean i don't have a dog. it's silly. it was just a charge which is designed to throw a bunch of stuff out into the public domain to get people excited. again, it was a side show. this whole alfa bank thing about the transmission of or the searches for web addresses, i mean it wasn't spying. it was stuff that, you know, your internet people look at all the time and there's no allegation that he was trying to mislead the fbi into anything. the fact of the matter is it doesn't cast aspersion on the entire russia investigation as demonstrated by the august 2020

report from the republican controlled senate intelligence committee which detailed hundreds of contact between the trump campaign and russia, including paul manafort, the campaign chairman, giving, confidential polling data, to a russian operative. it doesn't cast any doubt on that and ta investigation didn't have anything to do -- it wasn't started anything that hilliry clinton did, it was started by the coffee boy that trump talked about who was at bar in london talking to an australian diplomat saying, oh, there are these e-mails that russians have about hillary. the australian guy did the right thing and had his government call the fbi and that's how this investigation got started. it wasn't anything to do with what the cleaning people did. >> george, this investigation was basically designed and outlined by one of the more political attorneys jen until our history, bill barr. there's no term as far as i know

to this investigation or to durham's charge. so why is it -- first of all, can justice garr lan, can he just pull the plug on this investigation like today if he -- does he have the power to do that? >> yes. as attorney general he has under the regulations, he has the power to say that's enough. he has -- in fact, he has the obligation to do it if he thinks that durham is on a frolicking detour, which i think he is. i think the reason it hasn't been done already was for the simple reason they didn't want the political blowback of people saying cover up, cover up, if they -- if garland fired durham. well, i think he's got a good reason to now and frankly, what the justice department should be devoting resources to is the illegality that was demonstrated in the mueller report in volume 2. if you applied the same standard of charging that was applied in

the sussmann case to donald trump and the numerous instances of obstruction that are laid out item by item and element by element in the mueller report, you would have an indictment long ago. trump was not charged with obstruction because he was president of the united states and doj guidelines says you can't charge a sitting president. you know, these charges d what mueller laid out against trump was orders of magnitude more solid than what was -- the jury rejected yesterday. >> george, so you're saying that basically attorney general merrick garland could dismiss this now. >> yes. >> what else could merrick garland be doing more proactively at the justice department? >> i mean, with respect to durham? he has supervisory authority over durham. durham reports to the attorney general. he can just say, wrap it up,

let's see your report. i want it next month. and then they can debate whether or not, you know, there's anything in the report worth releasing. i think they have to release some of it, redact some of it, but he could shut this down and say that's enough or basically put with an order put durham out on the street. >> so the foreperson for this jury spoke briefly after the verdict was delivered and said simply, personally, i don't think it should have been prosecuted. we could spend this time more wisely. that's from someone who listed on to all the evidence. george conway, thanks for being here this morning. always appreciate it. twilight of the tech gods, from twitter to tesla, the founders of big tech companies cultivated reputations as geniuses. our next guest says their only real talent was burning through cash. her new reporting straight ahead on "morning joe." joe." if your moderate to severe crohn's disease

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i've lived in san francisco for 20 years.

i'm raising my kids here. this city is now less safe for all of us. chesa boudin is failing to hold repeat offenders accountable. he prosecuted zero fentanyl drug dealing cases, even though nearly 500 people have died of overdoses. i'm voting yes on h to recall chesa boudin now. we can't wait one more day when people are dying on our streets.

as russian forces advance in eastern ukraine, president biden says the united states will send medium range advanced rocket systems to help the country. the president's confirmation came yesterday in an opinion piece published in "the new york times." the rockets which can precisely target an enemy from almost 50 miles away will be part of a new $700 million military aid package to ukraine. the package also will include javelin anti-tank missiles, artillery rounds, helicopters and tactical vehicles. according to a senior white house official, the weapons were promised only after direct assurances from ukrainian leaders they would not use them to strike targets inside russia's border. joining us now former nato supreme commander, retired four-star navy admiral james stavridis, he's chief national security diplomacy analyst for nbc news and msnbc. his new book it titled "to risk

it all, nine conflicts and the crucibles of indecision." admiral, help our viewers understand the distinction and the weapons and why you think president biden is making those rules about not using them inside of russia. >> we're very sensitive about providing the ukrainians direct attack weapons, willie, which could be used to reach across that russian border which, let's face it, would be quite tempting to the ukrainians. they've done in some cross-border work themselves with their own system but to give them a longer range surface-to-surface missile like this, we do need to put some boundaries on its use. here's the good news and kind of bad news as well, but because the russians are so many miles inside of ukraine, these weapons can be used very effectively against russian forces that are already part of this invasion. of course, you're showing some good video right there. the key here is guided. these are weapons that can be

used quite precisely that can be used against troops in the open. they can be used against logistic basis. again, that's been an achilles' heel for the russians. and finally, willie, it's important to know these are mobile systems. in other words, they can shoot and scoot, as we say in military it's important to know that these are mobile systems. in other words, they can shoot and scoot, as we say in military parlance. it's a terrific weapons system. i think it will make a real difference in the fight at the moment. coming up next, is the united states ignoring the threat posed by nuclear weapons. .

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states capitol at 8:54 in the morning. a race to watch this midterm season is the open congressional seat in new york created by redistricting. the newly formed tenth district does not have an incumbent running. at least six candidates have declared they will run for the seat. and former new york city mayor bill de blasio announced his run on our show two weeks ago. daniel goldman is a former u.s. assistant attorney who served as the lead counsel for house democrats in their first impeachment of former president trump. daniel, good to see you. i understand you have something to announce. >> i do. as we look around the country and the threats that are really existential in terms of our democracy, threats against the right to vote, the right to

choose, our climate and public safety, i am running for congress in this new tenth district because i want to get on the front lines and back in the trenches like i did during the impeachment to fight for our democracy, defend our democracy, but also bring a new voice so that we can move some of these issues forward, that the republicans in particular are really trying to roll back. >> this is new district is 14th street south river to river and parts of brooklyn as well. what jumps to the top of the list there terms of issues people are concerned with there? >> this is a district i've lived in for more than 15 years. i'm raising my five children there who are in school there in lower manhattan as well as in brooklyn heights. when i speak to my neighbors, my fellow school parents, the biggest issue right now is public safety.

people are very concerned about riding the subways, about crime, about gun violence. that's the sort of non-mass murder gun violence, so to speak. of course, the mass murder gun violence is a totally different animal. we are at a precipice right now where it's easier to buy a gun than cigarettes or beer. there need to be new voices with new methods and new tactics to get something done. the old go along, get along, let's play nice in the sand box doesn't work. as someone who was in the trenches fighting against donald trump and the republicans during the impeachment, i have unique experience for right now as a federal prosecutor who dealt with crime for ten years in the southern district of new york, i understand the issue and hope to bring my skills and expertise.

>> republicans are expected to win back the house this fall. why haven't they gotten more done? whether it's inflation, the resurgence of the pandemic, whether it's gun violence. what is your answer to people who say why should i give democrats another chance with this? >> perfect can't be the enemy of the good. some legislation in dealing with the reality of joe manchin and kyrsten sinema. you have to move to their playing field while trying to elect more people so you can move some of these things forward. a big issue that bothers me and

has compelled me to run is republicans play by a different set of rules. they operate in bad faith. they complain about inflation, yet vote against bills that will help inflation. to the degree that democrats try to meet republicans where republicans are, we're going to fail. so we need new ways of going about it using leverage in different ways, recognizing that having lunch in the congress cafeteria is not going to get a deal done, that we need to go around the usual ways and try to turn the screws on republicans to force them to the table. >> dan, as you know, because you live it, in new york city as well as other major cities, we are awash in guns. you can buy a gun or rent a gun for a night if you're a young gang banger.

why is there not more of an alliance between democrats running for office and the police? republicans seem top coopted the police vote. but any cop would know that anyone who wants to get guns off the street or prevent 18-year-olds from buying assault weapons, any cop would say, i like that person. why is there not more of a political alliance between democrats and cops? >> i think it's starting to happen, because what we are seeing now is the republicans are starting to become the anti-law enforcement party. democrats are recognizing the value of law enforcement. i worked very closely with all sorts of law enforcement for ten years fighting gun violence, trafficking, gangs, mob bosses, organized crime, white collar crime. i do bring good relationships with law enforcement. i think it's