with regards to saudi arabia. and we need to shine a light on it. and we need to probably strengthen the laws surrounding the accident transparency of the finances of our foreign policy officials and others, with regard to their conduct of policy while they are in office. in connection with their own personal finances. >> congressman, good to see this morning. thank you for taking time to join. as democratic representative roger -- of illinois. straight, ahead the gun debate with an actual gun rights proponent who is willing to come to the negotiating table. plus, bestselling author jodi picoult joins us for this week's meeting of the banned book club. a new hour of velshi, begins right now. good morning at a sunday, june the 5th. if my name and the, east examine the west. i'm ali. velshi congress returns to capitol hill this week and will resume its work on gun control

legislation after another series of deadly mass shootings of force the issue back to the top of its agenda. on wednesday, family and survivors from the racially motivated attack at a supermarket in buffalo, new york, as well as the robb elementary shooting in uvalde, texas, will participate in a hearing held by the committee on oversight and reform. among the speakers will be maya surrey oh, a robb elementary fourth grader who was trapped in one of the adjoining classrooms of the gunman attacked. she told cnn that she covered herself in her classmates blood and play dead for an hour until law enforcement finally brought an end to the attack. now, she will tell her story to the entire country. think about this for just a second, think about the trauma that has been inflicted on school children because of our inaction. think about how much we've been active asking of young people across this country as the united states senate has continued to stall on passing any kind of legislation, as one mass shooting happens after another.

law enforcement put response to the uvalde math shooting cuts into the argument that guys with guns will keep society safe. good guys with hand guns are no match for an ar-15 style rifle that teenagers are now able to legally by, just days before carrying out an act of violence. where in the case of the hospital shooting in tulsa, oklahoma last wednesday, the shooter bought the gun just hours before carrying out an attack that killed four people. this has been the pattern for years now. a mass shooting or two will happen, there will be a burst of support for some kind of action, but those efforts are ultimately stalled or blocked or simply forgotten. after visiting two mass shooting sites in the span of two weeks, president biden is hoping to break that cycle. he spent the last two weeks pushing for congress to enact legislative change. with the presidents backing, a bipartisan group of senators might soon offer of the best chance for some sort of legislation that will address this country's ongoing gun violence crisis. it's far from a sure thing, but

there's already signs that meaningful gun control legislation might just remain a pipe dream. last, week the republican congressman chris jacobs of new york, this man, who represents part of the city of buffalo, said he would vote for a federal assault weapons ban and that he was open to other gun control measures. barely a week later, he announced that he would be retiring instead of pursuing reelection after receiving fears blowback for his change in stance on gun control. that is what the gun lobby can do. and that is just a snapshot of the political dynamics are gun control right now. you have to wonder if there is really enough room for compromise to make any sort of significant change anytime soon. joining me now from uvalde's town square is nbc's liz maclachlan. les, but dina so far but the legal actions that some parents and survivors are taking? including actions against gun manufacturer, daniel defense? >> well, ali, the first court action was filed on thursday

from a robb elementary school staffer. amelia, called a, me marin. who, if you may remember, initially was the teacher that authority said propped open the door to that school. one of many details that turned out to be incorrect. she saw the gunman and close that door but, for whatever reason, it didn't lock and she is currently traumatized according to her lawyer. video from the school does confirm that she did indeed close that door. but her filing seeks to get information about this georgia -based gun manufacturer, daniel defense, who made the ar-15 style rifle used by the gunman in this massacre, about how it markets its products, if it markets towards teens and young adults and, specifically, to the shooter. if they marketed to him, someone that maybe shouldn't have a gun. if not a full blown lawsuit, but it is a pre lawsuit petition to gather information. texas law says that, basically,

these lawyers can investigate before going on to see if there is enough evidence to pursue a lawsuit. don flanner-y, that lawyer, talked about it. let's listen to what he had to say. >> we have questions, right? we have questions about the marketing practices. why is it that they are, that they're painting their guns bright colors? what are their marketing practices? i did marketing to children? are they marketing to a younger generation? and they're trying to get their sales that way? that's what we want to know. we want to know, are they changing their practices? you know, some of their guns may have been used in the las vegas shooting. if that's the case, did they do anything to change their practices after that happened? >> so many questions here. a victims father, and marie jo garza, killed in this awful

shooting. her father, alfred garza, is also seeking information from daniel defends on one of his lawyers was part of that landmark 73 million dollar lawsuit against remington after the sandy hook shooting. now, most gun makers have broad protection from a 2005 federal law that says they are liable for criminal acts. but it is the marketing and state law that allows that lawsuit to go through, and what these lawyers are seeking to get more information about now. let's talk a little bit about daniel defense, this company is known for pushing boundaries. recently, in a tweet, now deleted, it shows a toddler holding an ar-15 style rifle. they're innovating, known for innovating gun purchasing. similar to buy online groceries. he still to get that background check, you have to show your i.d. when you pick it up, kind of like when you buy alcohol throughout my grocery by, but it's a lot easier. you just click, click, click, purchase, pick it up. and all those rounds of

ammunition as well. so, that is raising a lot of questions. ceo marty daniel, ali, pulled forbes in 2017 that their gun sales skyrocketed after sandy hook. >> liz, thank you for your reporting there. liz maclachlan, live in uvalde, texas. join me now as richard feldman, a former lobbyist for the nra, he's a president of the independent firearms owners association. he's the author of ricochet, confessions of a gun lobbyist. richard, it is good to see you again. you and i do have a habit of talking not just after shootings, and i was appreciate that, because i don't think we're entirely on the same side of this issue. we are in the same side of not having mass shootings. there is a pattern that has developed over the last couple of decades about how the school shootings go, who commits them, or kind of weaponry they use. given the increase in information that you and i get literally weekly, but do you think the solution is to this? >> i'm always taken aback when we discuss this issue.

because gun owners and non governors alike agree that people like the shooter in buffalo or eovaldi shouldn't get guns, period. sometimes i wonder, what are we fighting about? there are things we could do now that would have made it impossible for the shooters to have obtained the guns that they in fact did get. first thing is raise the age for buying a long gun from 18 to 21 under federal law. it's 21 for a handgun but 18 for rifles and shotguns. that's number one. had we done that, the shooters couldn't have obtained the guns they in fact did use. there are red flag laws that we could pass if they are carefully drafted and

instituted well, that would also have had an impact on some of these shootings. there are background checks, which wouldn't have made any difference in this particular case because both shooters passed the background check. but instead we often take opportunities like this and kind of through our hands up and go, well, let's just ban those guns without thinking about the 20 million americans who own them and didn't misuse them and never will. that's where the pushback is going to come from. if those guns weren't available, are we really suggesting that these kinds of individuals wouldn't have used a different gun that could have been even more lethal in the situation? instead of focusing on the problem, we kind of talk around the problem as the guns in

general are the problem. no, guns in the hands of people who shouldn't obtain them, that's the problem. >> well, we don't disagree on that, i leave it for another time the issue of whether they could've used more dangerous gun. because some of these ar-15s are as dangerous as they can get for a person who can get them. but let's talk about the three things you talk about. red flag laws which, by the way, some states have bipartisan support. background checks, which you really point out of this particular instance would've helped, but in other instances would have. raising the age, which in several instances would have helped, to not have people under the age of 21. we have this bipartisan senate committee, it seems impossible to get ten republican senators to support this, to overcome the filibuster. but that committee is not going to be discussing banning ar-15s, they're going to be discussing the very things you just mentioned. and you know it's going to happen, richard? nothing. right? it's not going to pass the united states senate. it'll passed the house and reasonable efforts will not pass the united states senate. how do we solve for that?

let's say you and i actually agree on those three things that can be done that would've prevented some of these killings but the united states congress will not. >> well, we've talked about this in the past. we need to align the policy and the politics. so, when we start talking about getting rid of the second amendment and banning classes of guns in the ears of many gun owners what they hear is, however this language and proposed legislation is being discussed, it's real ultimate goal is to take away guns that i own and don't misuse. so, we have to be far more careful in our discussion about what we want. i think we can see the results and congress from jacobs and his dropping out of the race. for proposing a ban on assault weapons. had he just gone as far as we're talking about here, that wouldn't have occurred in his district. >> but we, this conversation

you and i are having here, and you and i always have good meaningful conversations in which i learned something, is not the conversation that the nra, which are used to work for, is allowing to happen. they don't want any of this. >> well, they have their own internal problems at the moment. but gives a group like and are a power, it isn't the leadership of the organization, it's the fact that millions of americans in this democracy choose to support an organization on their own and they listen to what organizations that represent them tell them. well, when the vice president or the president starts talking about banning assault weapons it gives credibility to the leaders of the group like nra to say, see, they're really interested in taking away or guns. they speak on both sides of their mouth. that is politics, we're not

aligning, our politics and our policy. >> and by you to read richard's article that was published in politico this week. richard feldman, we appreciate you continuing to engage in this conversation. which one is a former lobbyist for the nra and here's the president of the independent firearms owners association. we have much more to discuss. he's also the author of an interesting book called ricochet, confessions of a gun lobbyist. we're now days away from the much anticipated public january six hearings, the committee says that, quote, no one is above the law that the hateful brittle of the roof of the house. we got a preview next. on this week's meeting of the banned book club, legendary author jodi picoult. we're going to talk about her band book, 19 minutes, a novel that follows the unfolding in aftermath of a school shooting. school shooting

>> four days from now, the house select committee investigating january six will take its findings public for the very first time, with the very first hearing scheduled to air on thursday night during primetime tv. the committees been gathering evidence and testimony since last july. the democratic congressman jamie raskin says those proves that donald trump is a one-man crime wave. the committee also promises that it will present, quote, previously unseen material documenting january six. altogether, the panel expects to hold about half a dozen public hearings this month and will likely release a report in the months following. we can expect to hear from

members of donald trump and mike pence's inner circles, as well as testimonies from documentary filmmakers who were following the militia groups around on the day of the insurrection. however, we will not be hearing from certain trump officials who are seen by the committee to be potential vital witnesses. former trump chief of staff mark meadows and former social media director dan scavino both defied subpoenas from the january six committee in recent months, for which the house voted to hold them in contempt of congress. but we learned this week that the justice department has declined to prosecute them. nbc news reached out to attorneys for both men, who praised the department of justice's decision not to prosecute them. former trump traded visor peter navarro, this man, was not so lucky. he was arrested and indicted on friday for refusing to cooperate with the committee and its so-called political agenda. navarro told reporters on friday that the committee is, quote, acting as judge, jury and executioner, their clear mission is to prevent donald

trump from running for president in 2024 and being elected. joining me to discuss this is hugo lowell, he is a reporter for the guardian. hugo, thanks for being with. us what do you expect to happen? what will happen at these hearings that will surprise anyone? they say there's going to be material, including, videos that we haven't seen before. but ultimately the goal is that they're going out to change some hearts and minds. how will they do? that >> i think the whole point of this is to take a step back for a minute. because of his eyes focused on the january 6th capitol attack itself. part of the committee is trying to do is place the attack within the broader context of all of trump's utter efforts to overturn the election. going back before the election, when steve bannon and other people in the external trump legal group that wasn't part of the administration i wasn't part of the trump campaign where coming up with ideas too kept trump back in office if he did indeed lose the election, as he did. but then also the other fringe groups, the far-right groups, the stop the steal that got

reactivated in the lead up to january 6th. in the months through november december. the committees goal here is to show that this was not just one alpha vent that happened on january 6th, this was a come when a nation of events that came through. they want to show this to the new evidence that they have, they want to show the witness testimony, they want to use the previously and seatac messages, communications, emails. they want to, effectively, deliver a presentation of criminality to get to the conclusion that, but yes, donald trump fraud of the united states and did obstruction of justice. >> what is the goal? then the committee can't install anything to change anything? they cannot smaller guardrails to prevent anything from happening again. and i also making the case that this might be underway again or that the failed coup participants are now going to be smarter the next time around? the problem with the fringe group says that everyone can write them off as fringe groups. the issue, is when this moves its way into the administration of elections. >> right, especially when they

go mainstream. we've already seen proud boys groups in florida started to infiltrate the local grassroots gop movement. i think there's a broader point that the committee also wants to make. these election fraud claims have not dissipated since the inauguration of joe biden. in fact, they've only got louder. steve bannon on his show daily perpetuates these claims of widespread election fraud. it's pervasive through a lot of the right-wing and the trump base, trump base of voters. i don't think the committee thinks it can change their mind but i think it hopes that, by showing this evidence and showing what trump was doing and how he was effectively conspired-ing, now the legal sense by conspiring with different elements of these probes to return himself to the oval office, maybe independent orders might take a second look at the ballot in 2022, 2024 and think maybe we don't want to follow this guy's agenda. >> hugo, great reporting. continued reporting from you. again, it will be a busy week for you. he's a little as a

congressional reporter for the guardian. the united states has announced another 700 million dollar aid package for ukraine, which includes some weapons that have been long sought by the ukrainians. but that decision is going to do and what effect it's going to have on the battlefield is next on velshi. does it worry me? absolutely. sensodyne sensitivity & gum gives us the dual action effect that really takes care of both our teeth sensitivity as well as our gum issues. there's no question it's something that i would recommend. riders! let your queries be known. uh, how come we don't call ourselves bikers anymore? i mean, "riders" is cool, but "bikers"...is really cool. -seriously? -denied. can we go back to meeting at the rec center? the commute here is brutal. denied. how do we feel about getting a quote to see if we can save with america's number one motorcycle insurer? should flo stop asking the same question every time? -approved! -[ altered voice ] denied! [ normal voice ] whoa.

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however, ukraine continues to hold ground in a place called severe donetsk, the last major eastern ukrainian city that is not under russian control. and some surrounding towns including ponce. ukraine is now conducting a successful carrot attack around kherson, planning to retake 20 towns villages that area in southern ukraine in recent days. the united states and others are sending long-range missile systems to ukraine, which have long been sought by president volodymyr zelenskyy, responding, putin told state media that if those attacks happened russia would attack targets that it is so far avoided. this morning, at least five russian missiles hit the capital of kyiv. that is the first set of strikes on that city and more than a month. underscoring that, while the fighting, the ground, fighting is focused elsewhere, the entire country of ukraine remains under unprovoked attack. russia says it has destroyed military equipment supplied by ukraine's eastern european allies. joining me now in person is the

former congresswoman jane hartman, 17 years in congress on many important committees. she's a distinguished fellow and the president emeritus at the wilson center. she's the author of insanity defense, why our failure to confront hard national security problems makes us less safe. for the first time in person in almost three years, we meet again. thank you for being on with us as regularly as you are. >> well, thank you for your authentic, voice ali. thank you for spending a month in poland, thank you to poland for taking in about half of the 8 million refugees from ukraine. a real act of heroism. and thank you for covering this topic at a time when most people are talking about other important issues, and they are important like inflation and guns and choice. >> your book wasn't written about this particular issue but it might as well have been. ukraine is actually an example of where our foreign policy needs to be cogent and important. because, if ukraine falls, it does sort of speak to a failure

in the world order. on one, hand nato has had its best year ever. it's getting more members, everybody now realizes it's important again. but this fight is not over in ukraine. >> right, this fight is not over. my book starts with our failure after the cold war ended, i was there, to conceive of a global strategy for u.s. leadership. we just thought, we won, they lost, china wants to be us, they're no real threat to the u.s. and russia should just be ground into the -- russia is a loser. and we paid for that big time, because china did want to be asked, the terrorist wanted to take us out and oh, by the way, russian grievance has fueled lattimore putin's angry and irrational assault on ukraine. and this moment. so, we need you as global either ship again. you're right that nato is renewed and president biden deserves a lot of credit for the renewal of nato. >> gets not at the moment, he is doing old-fashioned shuttle

diplomacy right. now >> foreign policy and intelligence issues don't play in reelection. however, if we want to defend u.s. freedom we have got to be out there and we've got to have a cogent and strategic security and foreign policy for the united states. and that is what biden is working on. i want to give him a little credit here, he not only revitalize the nato alliance but just went to asia and didn't get any credit for that because, sadly, the uvalde shooting happened as he was headed home. but there, he is trying to put together a 12 nation economic alliance as a buffer against china. those countries trade with china to but they also care about us in the quad that is, there australia, india and japan and us is a part of our fortunate pivoting to asia. we're also going to syria, or un representative was there and said that we care about those refugees. so, we have to project or in the, world not just in europe.

>> but that has been popular in the nine states. the trump administration for absence. we decided that america is not about this leadership. and we do pay that price when america doesn't have a leadership role. people may not love america first policies or what it does, but they seem to need america to take a lead in the world order. >> i think people do not love american leadership at the moment. but they still want to come here. all those refugees at the southern border and people want to study in america, our country is still a little bit less shiny. but the shawnee city on the hill that is a powerful protector in american leadership said that we were. i think this is the time,, and i hope the biden team will keep focusing on this. at the same, time i also think guns matter. and it was also tell you guys

that i was a fan of the biden stein a solomon's ban in -- i was in office in the ten years it was enforced, and gun violence went down. i disagree with your last guest that ar-15s are not the only horrific weapon out there. they are the most horrific weapon, and they should never be in private hands, because they cannot be used to defend your house or kildeer. they are just designed for mass shootings. >> i think it would, filament i disagree with him, to but he engages in the conversation. he will come in and have that conversation, which is a problem we have gotten america with respect to guns. people on the opposite sides of this will not talk about. it >> made this for partisan committee in the senate succeed. that is the only way this is going to get done. i'm glad you talk about. it anemone of the people on it. they are fears. but we've to get to ten republican senators. i cannot imagine, given public sentiment, that ten senators do not want to step up. it is tragedy would happen in upper new york state, new york state. not alabama. to congressman jacobs, who

courageously said he supported the assault weapons ban. >> and then he retired. but you are not you. be newbie. you are 17 years in congress, and you are telling me you think the senate thing might work? this bipartisan attempt? >> i am saying, why are these people? there are they there to get reelected, or they're there to put the country first? i thought it was there to put the country first, and when i was there i did that. i paid a pretty high price. i never lost. let's not go there. but in 1994, my first reelection after voting for the assault weapons ban, i won by 811 votes out of 225,000 in a leading republican seat. and i did the right thing. and had i lost, which would not have been a fun day, i would've thought they did the right. thing and i hope these people, when they go to bed and nice or when they are doing something other than being in their jobs, think, i was spending all the years years of my life, i had better be doing the right thing. >> jim, carmen great to see, you great fan of your show. i hope you see. again made the re-many more

instances like this. >> -- ally >> former nine term congresswoman from california. the author of insanity defense, wire failure to can front hard national security problems makes us less safe. always a relevant book, uniquely relevant in this moment that we are in right now. as we head to our break you want to send some good vibes to team ukraine as it faces off against wales in a soccer match to qualify for the world cup. the ukraine national team secured a spot in the playoff final after an oppressive robe win against scotland last week. ukraine's head coach says its players will hang a flag gifted to them by ukrainian soldiers who are fighting on the frontlines against russia. if the team wins, it will head to the world cup, which is taking place and qatar in november. today's match starts at 12 pm eastern. go blue and gold, or as they say in ukraine, lava ukraine. glory to ukraine.

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for nearly a year, it has been conducting investigations other closed doors. now the investigation goes public. much first in hand as it presents evidence to the american people. rachel maddow. join us in the oval office -- to help you make sense of it all. the first january six hearing, there is a weekend at 7 pm on msnbc. >> all, right june is pride month, where we celebrate the lives and working contribution to society by the lgbtq community. but as we mark this important month, it is important to remember that that community remains under attack. in this country. literally, more than 350 lgbtq bills have been instituted the state legislator just this year, and you've been directly targeting. children this, week ron desantis ordered the state

board to ban transition related medical care for minors. some emails across the country target transgender get specifically. to discuss this i'm joined by jonathan capehart, host of the sunday show. jonathan, these pieces of legislation a horrible. but one of your guest today is hoping to fight back against these interests are discriminatory laws. >> we are going to see stephenson on, she is the ceo of family equality. this is an organization that its sole purpose an entire purpose is to fight for lgbtq+ family these lgbtq laws that are proliferating, more than 300, ali, across the country, and not only targeting families but also targeting specifically children. which is what makes with this happening around the country so pernicious, to the point where there is one law, ali banning trans women and girls from competing in sports.

and the way they are going to do it is to force them to submit to an inspection of their genitalia. if they want to play the sport. this is how far reaching and also disturbing they are going to go. you, know allie there is something else that we are going to talk about. and this is a new poll from the southern poverty law center, which shows just how extreme the mainstream is becoming when it comes to the so-called great replacement theory. a staggering number, people mostly republican voters, believe in america's changing demographics are threats to white culture and values. and it shows just how the great replacement theory is alive and well and growing. and another poll, one of the five people believe it is okay to kill politicians who they believe are harming democracy. it is shocking and santa. we will have the guest from the southern poverty law center which conducted this poll to talk about what they think is fueling these beliefs. so as, always lost to talk

about on the sunday show. >> looking forward to, it jonathan. thank you so much. sunday show starting at the top of the hour 10 am eastern, here on msnbc. tonight, here in the fcc is going to air a new docuseries called devils advocate, the mostly true story of devoun destefano. it explores just avenues rise as a, lawyer representing the who's who of the criminal world from -- to saddam hussein. one of us as wanted to have devil's advocate tonight at 10 pm on msnbc. it's also streaming on peacock. can we are, next i'm excited to call order to this week's meeting of the velshi banned book club, featuring author jody pico. jodi picoult. her discussing her. book this up next on velshi. next on velshi. because when you save money, you can live better.

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from the school training of robb elementary school in uvalde, texas. the story becomes more painful with each passing day with each new piece of information that comes out. on top of that, there have been numerous mass shootings since that day two weeks ago. for today's velshi banned book club meeting, we are discussing a novel that focused on school shootings. the topic is uniquely raw and uniquely emotional, because it feels unavoidable. and perhaps at times even inevitable. how does this wound heal when the scab is torn off over and over, week after week? we choose to feature these types of books because we

believe there is power in literature, band or. otherwise maybe this book can help a velshi banned book club member explore their feelings and fears surrounding the heart wrenching issue of school shootings, if they didn't happen is frequently as they do. maybe reading the book will generate meaningful conversation. for some of you, have in the discussion we are about to have might be too soon. so please do consider this a content warning. the book is called 19 minutes, by the prolific bestselling author jodi picoult. he is set in sterling, new hampshire, in 2007. throughout the, book time clashes between the past and the present. , before or during, and after a school shooting perpetrated by peter. a bullied 17-year-old. the timeframe in the books title is in reference to how long the school shooting lasted. it's of 19 minutes for peter to murder ten people from his school and severely wounded several others. the story is told through the intertwining lives of several people from the school, including peter himself. josie, a victim of the school

shooting, and her mother, and a member of the towns law enforcement. let's quickly talk about the woman behind the word. jodi picoult is one of the most prolific authors overtime, hugely popular, selling more than 50 million copies of 28 novels worldwide. the wealth of jodi picoult's work deals with controversial issues, abortion, lgbtq, issues and of course school shootings. 90 minutes was her first book to debut at number one on the new york times bestseller list. it is far from her only book to face calls for a ban. on the one hand, 19 minutes is a quintessentially jodi picoult book. complete with a twist of the. and it is compelling, and ferociously readable. on the other, it deals with serious themes like vengeance horses justice and appearance versus reality. the story is told from a place of healing. the readers not asked to feel compassion for peter. but the story lays bare the

bullying, the taunts, the complicated family dynamics that help to explain the why. 19 minutes has been challenged numerous times. a year after its publication in 2008. a parent petitioned for its elimination from the library in illinois, citing the sexual references, suicide, bullying and violence among other things. the national coalition against censorship wrote a letter against spending the book. the letter ran in part, saying quote, in 19 minutes the author jody pico uses the form of a novel to address the serious issue of bullying, and questions about sexual relationships that affect teens across the country. the authors research on school violence in prevention which make the book a strong resource for teens,, educators and parents alike. and to quote. most of the books we cover on the velshi banned book club are crucial for many reasons. but primarily because they force their returns to face issues directly. for a certain readership, books like deer martin or weisberg,

both former banned book club features, cover topics that could actually be ignored. if you are not, black police brutality can be reduced to headlines. if you are not, jewish antisemitism may not seem relevant to you. this is of course precisely why these books need to be reds. and why banning them is so deeply insidious. conversely, school shootings cannot be ignored. they have become, sadly, part of the very fabric of the american school system. this is true for every parent ensued regardless over race or socioeconomic status. looks like 19 minutes can be a valuable tool, a resource, as the ncaa said, to work through our motions and thoughts and concerns surrounding this all too real and all consuming issue for parents and students alike. after this break, i'm joined by the amazing jodi picoult. we will talk about her book 19 minutes. the power of affection, and the gut wrenching reality of school shootings. velshi is back in a moment. nt s a bio-active mineral action

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joined with the prolific jodi picoult. new york times bestselling author of 28 novels including today's velshi banned book club, feature, 19 minutes. thank you for being with us. >> thank you for having me. >> this novel is uniquely relevant in this. moments throughout the, novel the readers offered a lot of insight into the school shooter, peter. his family, his upbringing. it is something we have shied

away from in the news business. we tend to focus on the victims and the circumstances more than the shooter. but why do you feel that it is important to tell people about the why of how peter became a school shooter? >> well, the reason i wrote this book is because adolescence is a timeout for the it. not standing out. it's there are a lot of kids who stuck out. that has not changed since when i was a kid. it's my children or younger. it takes a village to raise a child but it also takes a village to fail a trial. i think it is important to look as, true peter, all the ways that just one moment, one interaction with somebody, could change the course of his life, so he did not feel the need to pick up a gun and start shooting. that -- the book is grounded in bullying and how that affects and debilitates a kid. of course, there is bowling unconscious all over the world. the difference between america

and them's access to guns. >> how do you think the radar should consider -- when i say the reader, i actually mean everybody follows the news. because school shootings are something we discuss all too frequently. with respect to sympathy or empathy for the shooter, that tends to go out to the window fairly immediately. do you think that it would be helpful for us to have either more sympathy or empathy for these shooters, in terms of figuring out who to slowly problems? >> for you to mention how the media tends to focus on not the victims. i do not always see that being the case. i think people are looking for the salacious details. they want to know why the last thing the shooter posted online wise, did you take pictures of himself, with bullets crossed over his dressed, white groups that you belong to on social media. and i think that part of that is what's feeds future school shootings. i think that kids who are marginalized see things like that on the news and think, nobody knows my name, everybody

makes fun of me, but i no way i can make them stop. the culture perpetuates itself. it is worth saying that 19 minutes was written in 2007. that was one was published. it has been 15 years, and it has only become more relevant. and i really wish it wasn't. >> more rollover of a very regular basis. let's go rock to bullying. it was a motivation for you to write this book. tell me why. >> well, you know, i remember very distinctly when my oldest son was five years old, i remember going to his school and just watching this kid pull out the chair of another little girl, but before snack time, just to let her lunch tray would fall all over herself. this was a quiet little girl who was very shy. it's the kid to get to get a laugh and to tease this poor girl he was kind of on the fringes of the class. and they thought, wow, it starts so early. when i was an eighth grade 1 million years ago, i had my hand in a locker reaching in for a book, and the bully came in a slams the locker and my

hand and book two of my fingers. and it just seems like nothing changes when it comes to bullying. there are always going to be, clicks always going to because you are excluded. and it is necessary for us to understand that sometimes inaction is an action. and kids need to understand that too. if you see somebody sitting alone in the cafeteria, even if you are not actively bowling that kid, the fact you are not reaching out to them as a choice. >> your books are eminently readable. you cover a lot of controversial topics. every single book that we have on this show, that has had an attempted ban, they all say the same thing. they are hard topic. critics of these books say they are hard topics that they don't want their gets object to. >> were you surprised by the attempted banding of 19 minutes? because this kind of the point of the, book right? >> nothing about the book's was to make you comfortable or feel guide. it is supposed to challenge you. >> exactly. all of my books tends to be challenging. and about issues that are

polarizing. when it comes specifically to 19 minutes, it is really worth noting that we regulate drugs and cars and alcohol,, and even ladders. and, now apparently books, we regulate the bookseller kids are supposed to be reading. but we still do not regulate guns. >> when you look at the body of your work, because we tackle all the topics that you could be talking about every week on the news, what is the role? because you really are the exemplar of a writer who writes accessible things. these are not -- we have between your solution. that is a different issue, she is fantastic. she's a fantastic writer. but just a little access. it is not the same ease with which one can pick up a jodi picoult book. so you are taking these hard topics and making them accessible. what do you think that role is for you? is it different when you first started writing? >> i think it is probably

gotten a little more sharp as i've continued to write over the years. i think fiction is a really important tool. a lot of people will tune next to the news. i can't tell you how many people i've talked to in the last week who said, i cannot handle all this talk about the shootings, i'm not watching the news this week. fiction is supposed to be an escape, but if you write about topics like i choose to, once you do is get readers invested in the story and then the characters. and by the time that the last pages have turned, you force them to confront an issue that maybe they did not want to confront. and you've done in a way that allows them to examine all sides of a situation. you are going to look at the pros and the cons. you are not going to ask them to believe something that maybe i believe. but you are going to ask them to reevaluate why their opinion is the way it is. fiction is a back door way, i think, to get people to really question their opinions.

why they form, them when they form them, and if they should be opening up their minds and changing the points of view. >> and what a great way. if this is how people are going to be informed about contemporary issues, want to do it through a jody peco book? thank you for being with us, thank you for writing this book so long ago that continues to be relevant today. jody pico is the author of 19 minutes, and many other novels. and we appreciate your time today. thank you for being with us. we are going to continue this conversation next week, by the way, with todd straw sir, author of the young adult novel give a boil gun. it is a painful and poignant look at a school shooting is told by documents emails and interviews from those involved in those affected. stay right where you are because the sunday show with jonathan kaye part begins right now. >> president biden had a big week, going everywhere to tackle everything from gun violence to inflation. we'll break it down with house

might geordie whip, james clyburn. the fall the school, shooting new revelations as the investigation continues and parents and survivors prepared to tell their story to congress. and january 6th. the select committee gets ready for primetime, former trump advisor peter navarro isn't knighted for defying a subpoena and some republicans can't handle it. >> if you're a republican, you can't even lie to congress or lie to an fbi agent or they're coming after you. >> you can't even, yes, he really said that out loud. i'm jonathan capehart, this is the sunday show. sunday, we begin with president biden's mounting dilemmas. af