militia. and, the indictment, back in 2010, charged that these nine people intended to murder a member of law enforcement, possibly the family of a law enforcement officers were. and, then when lots of other law enforcement officers, and o would come from all over the country to be there for the big public funeral that would result, this militia decided that they would mount a big attack on the funeral to kill as many law enforcement officers from all across the country as possible. and in that larger attack that they planned on the funeral, they planned to use not just guns but also i.e.d.s. this was 2010. they're by then had been years of extensive coverage in u.s. media about i.e.d.s, about improvised explosive devices, being used to devastating effect against u.s. troops in iraq and afghanistan and in particular iranian supported militia groups in iraq why using a sort of

enhanced i.e.d. against u.s. troops, again to absolutely devastating effect, enhanced i.e.d. with a shaped projectile that used these improvised bombs to penetrate armor. they were called an explosively formed projectile, it was a sort of super i.e.d., and in 2010, these militia guys in michigan and ohio and indiana, according to prosecutors, prosecutors said in their indictment in 2010 that these militia guys exchanged information about not just i.e.d.s, but how to build those kind of i.e.d.s specifically, the kinds of explosively formed projectiles that would be used against u.s. troops by iranian backed militias in the iraq war. they exchanged information about how to build those kinds of i.e.d.s, they amassed the materials they would need to build those kind of i.e.d.s and mount what they hoped would be a catastrophic large scale attack

on law enforcement at a high profile public law enforcement funeral of a law enforcement member they intended to kill. and they hoped the attack on that funeral and the ensuing casualties among u.s. law enforcement would be terrifying and destabilizing enough in the united states that it would basically set off a war here. a war that they intended to win. in addition to the bombs, the i.e.d.s part of their plan, they also had a machine gun, they had a fully automatic machine gun, and lots of other weapons, and hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammunition that they had amassed and that they trained with, to plan for this attack that they hoped would set it off, in a large scale kind of way in the united states. this group of people was arrested in 2010. and they were charged in federal court. they were specifically charged with seditious conspiracy.

they were all acquitted. all of them. they each got all of their guns back after they were acquitted. except for the machine gun, that is. they got all of their guns back. that was in 2010. the indictment happened in 2012, they were all acquitted. part of that was 1988. seditious conspiracy charges. brought against 14 members of a white power group that had amassed enough fire power to hold their own against a fairly considerable army. they had multiple machine guns and rocket launchers and anti-tank weapons. they had grenades. they had land mines. and several of the defendants in the 1988 trial were already known to have taken part in murder and in a big counterfeiting operation in which they were making counterfeit u.s. currency. also in armed robberies that were all designed to support and

fund their overall plan to use terrorism and violence to so destabilize the united states that ultimately a war, they were hoping a race war would break out and the u.s. government would be overthrown. prosecutors presented evidence that this group in 1988 had detailed plans that they had shared among themselves to assassinate a federal judge, as well as federal law enforcement officials. they even had plans to poison the water supply in major cities in order to cause mass murder. that trial was brought in portsmouth arkansas in 1988 against 14 white power activists. all were acquitted. all of them. and just like the guys in the michigan case, the white power guys got their guns back, too, after the trial, at least the ones who weren't already in prison for something else, they got their guns back.

sedition is a crime in the united states, seditious conspiracy, very serious crimes but crimes that have proved to be very very difficult to get convictions for at trial. and it is an even more i guess high stakes thing than just the possibility of failing to get a conviction when you prosecutor one of these cases because it turns out from recent history when you try to prosecute people for sedition and the prosecution failed and the defendants get acquitted, these defendants tend to take that as vindication of what they were doing. in the portsmouth arkansas trial for example, the one in 1988, the defendants walked out of that courtroom absolutely triumphant that they had been acquitted, and one of them told "the new york times" that day, zog has suffered a terrible

defeat here today. by zog, the zionist occupation government because it is the jews who they are really after. one of the key witnesses in that trial later went on to commit mass murder at a jewish community center in overland park, kansas. sedition is a serious crime. seditious conspiracy is a way to try to stop the government from carrying out laws or overthrow the government. seditious conspiracy is a crime for obvious reasons. and in modern american life the u.s. justice department have had a heck of a time actually securing convictions when they charge people with that crime. and all of white house can observe that modern history know that, you can just see that in the history of modern sedition prosecution, there are all of these incredibly dangerous people charged with incredibly terrible things with incredibly

damning evidence brought against them who are more or less acquitted because the crime is hard to prove in court and we can see that as citizens, high profile, hair cruraling prosecutions, and you who who can really see, it prosecutors who work for the u.s. department of justice. they really know acutely how hard it is to get a prosecution in a sedition case, they know it even more acutely than we do because the acquittals in the very high profile failed sedition cases, those loom very large in the history of high stake, highly charged failed prosecutions by the u.s. department of justice. federal prosecutors know this history very well. and they therefore know not to bring sedition charges lightly. and yet here we are. in january of this year, the u.s. justice department brought seditious conspiracy charges against 11 members of the oath

keepers. a right wing pro trump para-military group that allegedly played a key role in the violent attack on the u.s. capitol to try to keep trump in power on january 6th of last year. since that sedition indictment in january, three different members of the oath keepers have pled guilty and started cooperating with police. in april of this year, there's another guilty plea, another cooperation deal, with a member of a different right wing pro-trump para-military group, the so-called proud boy, and now today, five members of the proud boys have themselves been hit with sedition conspiracy charges. and i know this may sort of feel like a continuation of that earlier story from january, but i cannot underscore strongly enough how unusual it is, and what a big deal it is, at the u.s. justice department for sedition charges, for seditious conspiracy charges to be charged by the u.s. justice department.

i mean in modern times, sedition charges are rare enough and a risky enough prosecution effort that there are literally books written about every modern case in which sedition is charged by the government because it is such a big deal when they do it, it is so rare, it is so high stakes and if you're under the age of 100 and if you were to go to work as a federal prosecutor for the u.s. justice department, it would be a pretty good bet that you would never see this particular charge brought against anyone in your entire career and yet here we, are 16 people from two different para-military groups charged in two different sedition indictments in the space of six months. the ocean -- the oath keepers decision conspiracy brought in january and now the proud boys decision conspiracy indictment brought today, both related to the january 6th violent attack on the u.s. capitol to try to overthrow the u.s. government to try to prevent president biden from taking office. the fact that the justice

department prosecutors have brought these cases, knowing the history of how difficult it is to secure a conviction in cases like this, the fact that they have brought these cases against two different groups over the course of six months, implies a certain confidence on the part of the justice department about what a good case they've got. i really do think that by the justice department's own history, prosecutors are sort of hard wired to not use these particular charges unless they really feel like they've got it but now they've got, it they did it in january, they did it again today. and this dramatic decision by the justice department comes as what is turning out to be a very dramatic time, right? the congressional investigation into the january 6th attack, that is separate and apart from anything that the justice department is doing. the congressional investigation into the january 6th attack, they have no power to prosecute anyone. the most they can do in terms of essentially putting anybody behind bars is they can refer a

case to the justice department for them to potentially prosecutor it but there is no guarantee the just at this time 'tis department would follow their lead on. >> it the congressional investigation of the january 6th attack is completely separate and apart from whatever the justice department is doing on its own, that congressional investigation will hold its first public televised hearing this week thursday night so the public can see what they have discovered about what happened on january 6th. as first reported in "the new york times" tonight and confirmed by nbc news, one of the live witnesses who is expected to testify at the hearing on thursday night is a film maker, a documentary film maker, who was imbedded with the proud boys, with this para-military group that today is charged with seditious conspiracy, this film maker was apparently im bedded with them in the days and weeks leading up to january 6th including on the night of january 5th when he filmed this meeting in a dc

parking garage between the head of the proud boys, the guy in the baseball hat in the right side of your screen there, he is now indicted for seditious conspiracy and the goofy guy in the big hat whose back is to us, he is head of the oath keepers and now indicted for seditious conspiracy, they run two different pro trump right wing para-military groups and they apparently met together in this parking garage as seen in this footage the night before the january 6th attack. the film maker who shot this footage is reportedly going to be one of the live witnesses at thursday night's prime time january 6th investigation. "the new york times" also reporting tonight that another witness who is expected in that hearing thursday night is a senior u.s. capitol police officer who was assaulted during the attack on the capitol on january 6th, she is actually believed to be the first police officer who was physically attacked that day, she was reportedly attacked within moments of having some sort of communication, some sort of

confrontation with one of the proud boys who has now been indicted for seditious conspiracy. she is expected to testify thursday night as is the film maker who was with the proud boys in the days and weeks leading up to the attack, including the night before the attack, when the leaders of these two para-military groups apparently were there. the january 6th investigation in congress is proceeding and about to show its work to the public but they're proceeding independent of what is happening at the justice department. in terms of what is happening at the justice department, we have a lot of new information there about what is happening there from the criminal investigations and potential criminal prosecutions. more than 800 defendants who allegedly participated in the attack on the capitol have been charged already. but in addition to those 800, there are more than 350 other people who are pictured on the fbi's website, even today, committed, committing alleged crimes including assaulting police officers, people who are

still wanted, more than 350 people still wanted by the fbi, beyond the 800-plus who have already been charged. but we now know that it was not just the grand jury or grand juries who are bringing these indictments of individual participants in the mob attack. there were apparently multiple federal criminal grand juries who were at work here. there is the one that sent the subpoena to trump white house official peter navarro last week for example. and there's the one that is sending out subpoenas and taking interviews related to the scheme to send fake electors for trump to washington, so the electoral college would count trump as winning in states that he actually lost. the prosecutors who are investigating that part of the scheme, working with a grand jury to investigate that part of the scheme have reportedly spoke within state officials in georgia about the effort by trump and his circle to pressure georgia state officials to change the election results there, to make it look like trump won, when in fact, he lost. that pressure on georgia state officials is of course already a

matter of criminal investigation in the state of georgia, brought by fulton county district attorney will is, and that grand jury and that state criminal investigation is now handing out subpoenas, and starting to hear from witnesses in their state level criminal investigation. but on top of that, we know that federal investigators are looking into the georgia matter as well and interviewing potential witnesses. so we are about to get, we the public, are about to get a big show your work moment from the january 6th investigation that is being conducted in congress. they have spoken with over a thousand witnesses. they have reviewed more than 140,000 different documents. we are told to expect not only a sort of multi-media presentation of what they have found but also live witnesses. this first hearing from the january 6th investigation is going to be this thursday, our coverage of it, this thursday night, here on msnbc, will start at 7:00 p.m. eastern, we're expecting the hearing itself to begin at 8:00 p.m. eastern. we also got confirmation from

the investigation today that their second hearing will happen next week. they will start morning hearings next week, we've been told to expect that there would be a series of these hearings from the january 6th investigation, some in prime time, some in the morning, the prime time is this thursday, the morning hearings starting next week. we will speak with mbs news, presidential historian in just a few minutes tonight about the history of this moment, how rare this sort of thing is, how fraught it is, to have this congressional investigation going to the public with its findings, the prime time hearings at the same time that the justice department is now putting out these major charges against alleged co-conspirators. the question of the president and his personal potential relationship to these seditious conspiracy indictments is of course one that looms very large now, given what has been reported and open source reporting about the president's potential connection to both the proud boys and the oathkeepers

and their machinations on january 6th, now that both of those organizations have been hit with sedition charges. we will talk with the presidential historian, michael, about that coming up tonight. and logistically, one thing to note about these hearings in terms of making your plans to watch the prime time hearing this week, and to stay up on these hearings as they continue through next week, we of course will be covering the january 6th committee hearings live here on msnbc, as i mentioned the first time lineup coverage will start at 7:00 p.m. this thursday night. i will be helping anchor that coverage joined by many of my colleagues including chris hayes and nicole wallace and joy reid, and a team effort in covering the january 6th hears starting with our special coverage starting at 7:00 p.m. thursday night 7:00 p.m. eastern. on top of that, not only are we going to be airing the hearings live here on msnbc as they happen, so you can plan ahead, i

want you also to know that all of the hearings are also going to be available on the podcast feed for this show. the hearings themselves and the preand post-hearing analysis that we are going to be doing on msnbc, you can get the audio of that, in its entirety, and for free, on the podcast feed of my show. if so if you already subscribe to the rachel maddow show podcast, thank you. you don't have to do anything else. if you don't already subscribe, go to whatever podcast provider you use, type my name maddow in the search bar and subscribe to the rachel maddow show, it is all free and you will see at that podcast, you will have all of the normal content, the audio of this show for example but once the hearing starts that's where we are going to post free and in its entirety the audio of all of the january 6th committee hearings, plus the pre-analysis and the post-analysis when they happen. boy there's a lot going on right now. we've got a lot to get to tonight. our live view from kyiv with the u.s. ambassador to ukraine is

coming up after this. a lot to get to. stay with us tonight. good to have you. to. stay with us tonight good to have you

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that the united states reopened our embassy in kyiv, in the capital of ukraine, in february just before russia invaded ukraine, our embassy and all its staff moved west away from russia hopefully out of harm's way to the western ukrainian city of lviv, but after ukrainian forces successfully blocked russia's attempts to seize kyiv and russian forces pulled back, three weeks ago, the u.s. decided to move the embassy back, back to the capital and the flag was once again hoisted over the u.s. embassy there. because the u.s. embassy has reopened in kyiv, it was worrying, presumably for the u.s. government this weekend when russia started shooting into kyiv again. russia this weekend fired missiles into kyiv for the first time in over a month. the kremlin says the missiles were targeting weapons shipments

from abroad. ukrainians said the missiles hit a train repair facility. but regardless for the u.s. government, a new attack by the russian federation on ukrainian's capital city raises questions about the safety of the u.s. embassy and the diplomats there, and now that the embassy has moved back to ukraine's capital. concerns about the embassy in kyiv of course include concerns for the safety of the brand new u.s. ambassador to ukraine who just arrived there a week ago. she is the first senate confirmed ambassador to ukraine since former president trump ousted the last one in 2019, under circumstances that eventually led to one of the times former president trump was impeached. russia's initial ambitions when they started the war in ukraine seem to be that they would invade and conquer the whole country. ukrainian resistance and their defense of kyiv appeared to foil that plan and really seemed like russia was comprehensively

scaling back its ambitions to focus just on eastern ukraine. the russian missile strikes on kyiv yesterday though, is that a live issue again? we do not know. but the fighting in the eastern part of ukraine right now is no holds barred, it is by all accounts incredibly intense. yesterday, ukraine's president volodymyr zelenskyy visited the front line of those battles for ukraine and made a dangerous trip into a city that is under heavy become bardment and under risk of being surrounded by russian forces and went there to support the front line forces in the ukrainian military, he handed out medals to ukrainian soldiers who are fighting ukrainian forces street by street in bombed out cities where control seems to be see sawing day by day between the ukrainian and russian forces. and of course, the stakes of who controls what are high. russia's taking the areas it has captured in the east and south of ukraine, they've been moving to try to make those parts of ukraine defacto part of russia,

they have given out russian passports to local ukrainian residents, as if they are russian citizens now, they made the ruble an official currency in those areas, as if that is part of ukraine, part of russia and trades in the ruble, and put up russian flags with street signs and replaced ukrainian tv channels with russian state tv broadcasts. they're acting as if those parts of eastern and southern ukraine are a part of russia already. today, that u.s. ambassador to ukraine met with the ukrainian defense minister and told him quote we will increase the unprecedented level of u.s. assistance, we will do everything possible to strength ukraine on the battlefield. joining us now is the new united states ambassador ukraine, bridget brink, and she joins us from the ukrainian capital of kyiv, i appreciate you being here, given what time of the night it is right now in ukraine. >> rachel, thanks so much. it is great to be with you.

>> let me ask you first, about the decision to move the embassy back to kyiv. obviously, that is something that the ukrainian government wanted, and that some other countries have done, and the united states has done this just within the past few week, you're just there within the past week, is it a danger to yourself and other u.s. personnel to have the embassy there, particularly with those missiles that we saw russia shoot in the ukrainian capital this weekend? >> well, i would just say diplomacy is risky, and we are here because we think it's important to send our national strategic interests to try to ensure that borders are not changed by force, and to do that job, in part, you need people on the ground, so myself and my team were very aware of the risks that are at play, we very much try to mitigate them, president biden, secretary blinken. we all have total confidence

in efforts that they are making to mitigate those risks and we try to do it, i try to do it myself as ambassador, what i heard on the hill during my history mation hearings from congress was -- confirmation hearings from congress was a lot of interest in getting us back, and i personally wanted to get back and the president wanted us to be present so i'm proud to be here with a group of very patriotic americans and to represent the u.s. foreign service, the diplomatic arm of our government. we don't fight with weapons. we fight with ideas and words. and my number one job here is to try to help ukraine defend itself. >> in terms of ukraine's act to defend itself, i think that so many americans both have been horrified by the invasion and who are supportive of the people of ukraine and what they are contending with, in this war, i live in western new england, and in multiple states driving around this part of the country i see people putting out ukrainian flags in front of their houses, not with other

political messages or anything, just support for ukraine. i think because there is so much support for ukraine in the united states, i worry that perhaps the u.s. government, that perhaps the u.s. media is telling the american people what they want to hear about ukraine's likelihood of succeeding in this effort, and that we are more interested in hearing about ukrainian bravery, ukrainian success, and the russians falling short of expectations, than we are in hearing news to the contrary. is that fair to worry about that, and do you have a different view of how things are going in the war, now it is 100 days into it? >> yeah that's actual lay great question. i mean there is no doubt that due to ukrainian bravery, and ingenuity, the russians have had to pull back and refocus on east and the south of the country. it's amazing. it's remarkable. it's a david and goliath story that's in real life.

the president is incredibly brave and is leading his people in this resistance to this unprovoked aggression. but also the average person on the ground is resisting as well. so i think that it's, what happens happening now in the east, is the fighting, as your intro said, is very close, very difficult, ukrainians are losing a lot of soldiers every day, it's why it's so important that we work for with partners and allies to continue to provide as much security assistance as they need to prevail, to defend themselves. and that's what i'm doing on the ground and working with of course washington, and then other allies and partners that are on the ground here in kyiv, but yes, this is going, i guess what i would say to the american people, and i felt this overwhelming support, just for our presence, for our team that is here, for our people, when i was back in america, i felt it

obviously from the administration, but also from congress, and also i'm from the midwest, and i felt it from friends and family, that i grew up with. so that's great. i would just say this is not going to be easy. and it's going to take some time, and i think it's now a very difficult battle in the east, and it's more, now more important than ever that we continue to offer this support. >> with the russian federation handing out russian passports to ukrainians, in the east, with vladimir putin, recognizing the purported independence of parts of eastern and southeastern ukraine, with russian occupying forces, telling ukrainians they need to trade in the ruble and replacing the ukrainian education and media outlets with those that are derived from russia, it does seem like putin is trying to make the russian takeover of large parts of

ukraine the defacto way of life, in that part of the country. president zelenskyy has talked about one fifth of ukrainian territory now being occupied by russian forces. is it the position of the u.s. government that any diplomatic solution, any potential cease-fire has to respect the original integrity of ukraine's border or is it possible that ukraine is going to lose large swaths of its territory in negotiations to end the war? >> well, you've got it exactly right, this is part of the russian play book in terms of giving out passports, and incorporating parts of the country into russia, i mean this is what has happened in places in this part of the world, so it's not surprising the united states has long recognized

ukraine. ukraine with its international borders. and we also, we consider crimea as an integral part of ukraine. so we are letting the ukrainians decide when or how they will negotiate, as president zelenskyy said, and president biden also affirmed, all wars end in some kind of negotiations, but we're supporting ukraine n-as it fights right now to defend, as it fights right now to defend itself. >> how important are the new advanced weapons that president biden has approved sending to ukraine? i think for us who don't come from a military background, we hear about anti-tank weapons, we hear about artillery, we hear about howitzers, we're hearing about guided rocket systems. as the type of weapons and the amount of weaponry that the united states sends continues to expand, is there something that we should understand, in terms of the enhanced capability that

we are offering the ukrainians by giving them these more advanced weapons that are newly arriving there? >> well, they are very important, and it really signifies i think our support, because they are advanced weaponry, they also signify the way in which the battle has changed from what was required in kyiv, and the capital, when there was fighting in urban areas, where now it is fighting in the donbas, which is the area in the east and it is very flat, and so the fighting is basically artillery, and it's from, from far away, divisions are far away from even other. so this weaponry is more appropriate for the current fight. we also hope that allies and partners will also support ukraine with this kind of weaponry, and we will continue our very, very close consultations with them in order to adjust the security assistance that we're providing to meet the needs that they

have. >> the united states ambassador to ukraine is bridget brink. madam ambassador, the whole country obviously is very acutely aware of you and your whole diplomatic staff there, the danger that you are all putting yourself in to do this important work, good luck to you, come back any time, we would love to have you back on the show and thank you for what you do. >> thank you so much, rachel. it's really great to see you and be here. >> all right, more tonight. stay with us. >> all right, moret stay with us your projects done right

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do you know right now, i could have something that chi bring into a building that would clear you from covid. as you walk through the door, they will clear any covid on your body and when you leave it will cure covid, they don't want to talk about this. they don't want to hear about this. >> i'm rafael warknock and i approve this message. >> that's a new campaign ad from democratic georgia u.s. senator raphael warknock, showing his republican senate opponent pushing a mist, a magic mist that can clean you. he says he has this magic mist, he uses the magic mist to turn doorways into 100% cures for covid. that is the kind of ad you can run when your opponent is herschel walker.

there is a reason mr. walker refuses to show up, refused to show up for his primary debates when he was running to become the republican nominee for senate in georgia. i mean if your candidate accidentally veered into i have a magic mist cure for covid right here and no one wants to hear about it, your guy veers into that territory when he got behind the microphone, you would probably try to keep him away from a plirk -- microphone too. we will see if he debates raphael warknock, herschel walker is really the republican party nominee for president in georgia, which does seem kind of crazy, and then again, is that any crazier than the candidate republicans chose for senate in pennsylvania? after all that candidate has also been accused of peddling his share of snake oil cures for various real illness. even ending up being a republican candidate for pennsylvania is still a mystery. the republican senate candidate

mehmet oz in pennsylvania is a man who is from ohio, has a home in florida, votes in new jersey, no discernible connection to pennsylvania whatsoever. but alongside herschel walker magic mist walker as the candidate in georgia, the no connection to pennsylvania guy is the senate candidate in that state as well. then again, mehmet oz being the republican pennsylvania senate candidate, any crazier than the candidate republicans chose as the nominee for governor in pennsylvania? he, after all, is a sword-wielding election denier who has been subpoenaed by the january 6th investigation to talk about among other things his role in putting forth a fake slate of trump electors from pennsylvania, even though trump lost pennsylvania. with each new primary election this year, the republican party has made sort of increasingly

wild choices for who their nominees are going to be, to represent them in november's elections. well tomorrow, we're going to get more. tomorrow, there are primary elections in seven more states. and if you are looking to see who might be the next list, the next guy on the list of this amazing cast of characters republicans have been nominating this year, you may want to pay particular attention to montana. montana republican congressional contender ryan zinkin, if that face is familiar to you, if that name sounds familiar, it is probably because you remember him from one of his 18 gazillion different scandals during his time as trump's interior secretary. and when i say 18, there wasn't 18 gazillion, but really was 18 different federal investigations involving ryan zinke during his time as a trump cabinet member, and spent $12,000 of taxpayer

money to fly on a private plane and $139,000 taxpayers dollars on a set of fancy new door force his office. $140,000 worth of doors, really? and the time he overruled federal experts after blocking a casino project after he met with lobbyists from the rival casino giant and tried to get an executive from the oil company hall burt ton build mr. zinke his own micro brewery at a time when halliburton had business before the interior business. this is tough competition. ryan zinke was probably the most scandal plagued member of the trump cabinet, if you look at volume, the number of months he served versus the number of formal federal investigations that had to be opened into his conduct. brian zinke really set some records. he and scott pruitt were neck and neck and zin kechld was

something and republicans will look at ryan zinke, in the string of quite amazing republican candidates for office. seven states have their primaries tomorrow, and watch montana in particular. they're bringing ryan zinke back. basically all bets are off. watch this space. watch this space

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at this time, on thursday,

will be more than a couple of hours into the january 6th investigation's first big public hearing and our coverage of that first hearing, our special coverage is going start at 7:00 p.m. eastern time on thursday night, i'm going to be there along with a whole host of my msnbc colleagues, we of course will be showing the full hearing live. i've covered many, many, many election nights, i've even covered multiple impeachments, in the past, and i know those nights can be intimidating and sometimes a little bit crazy, but when i prep for those nights, there's usually some kind of long deep history to look to, to at least make sure we understand how, what we're covering now compares to similar events in our country's past. for this though, for the january 6th investigation, i have to admit, i'm at a bit of a loss. the assault on the u.s. capitol, the underlying plot to stop president biden from taking office, to stop the peaceful transfer of power, this is something where it does feel

like history is giving us some fresh material. and now, we've got the congressional investigation about to show us their work in terms of what they have discovered, and at the same time, we've got the justice department in public-facing actions like in new indictments and subpoenas that have been described to us by their recipients. we've got all sorts of nye information about how the justice -- new information about how the justice department itself appears to be going multiple fronts at this topic, multiple different elements of those alleged crimes including now two different big indictments for seditious conspiracy which is something that is almost never charged in u.s. history. it feels like fresh material. given that, how do we prep? how do we make sure we have our heads on straight in terms of what this investigation means for our country, how it measures up against the challenges we have faced before, i don't know. i'm calling in a pinch hitter right now to help us answer that question. joining us is michael, nbc news presidential historian, michael,

it's great to see you, my friend. thanks for being here tonight. >> great to see you. great to be together. >> unprecedented is a word that i have become increasingly allergic to, and i try not to use it in a wanton sort of way. that said, i feel like i need advice from you on what sort of historical parallels, historical analogies we should draw on, in trying to understand the importance of what will happen this week. >> you know, take a look at american history. you know, when did we see a coup d'etat by a losing presidential candidate to take power even though he lost the election? never happened before last year, 17 months ago, and that's what happened with donald trump, did we see an attack on congress and the capitol by people trying to overthrow our democracy? it looks like, i haven't seen anything like that. 1861, lincoln fought the civil war but elections were made.

1932, we were in a terrible depression but people did not turn to dictators or anyone else. elections went on during world war ii. here, we're beginning to go another way, and the other thing, rachel, talking about those hearings, and can't wait to watch and hear what you have to say about it later on this week, you know, the time of joseph mccarthy, the demagogue who was making false charges, that there were communists all through the american government, there were hearings, everyone watched, they saw that mccarthy was a fraud, he was marginalized. 1973, watergate hearings, john dean, mainly, but some others, charged that richard nixon was in charge of the watergate coverup which he had been denying, those hearings were watched by anyone, they showed that he was lying and he was thrown out of office. 2022, i hope that a lot of people watch thege -- watch

these hearing, i'm not sure and i think we're a little more numb than previous history and i think americans, they have to realize we got to fight for democracy every single minute. plus republican leaders in '74 went to nixon and said you have to quit, you've gone way beyond the line. how empty does that sound tonight? >> one of the things that i feel like is not so much of a wildcard but at least sort of a rising or looming presence in this whole discussion including how these hearings are going to be received and how we understand the importance of this moment as americans and what's going on at the justice department, we now have two very rare seditious conspiracy indictments, against two para-military groups that supported trump. we have more than 800 people indicted that admitted to a level of participating. but we also now have good public-facing evidence that the justice department is looking at the plot more than they're just looking at the individual perpetrators of the violence in person that day.

the justice department potentially is having a serious role here in turning this into a criminal matter do. we have an experience of that interacting with the congressional investigation like that? >> yes, watergate is a perfect example where there were people in the justice department, despite the fact that nixon was president, who were looking into, this and henry peterson, other prosecutors that were working to some extent in tandem with the watergate investigators and also with the judge who was early on to see the conspiracy. so the system works but the system only works if we demand it. it could that we have a republican majority in congress this fall, and if that happens, you may see republicans in congress wanting to cut the money to the department of justice, to turn the lights out. we may be living in a different dimension. so all i'm saying rachel, is to all of our friends watching us, this is a year we may lose our democracy, we may lose all sorts

of rights, had is not a moment to sit on the fence, this is not that time. >> michael, msnbc presidential historian, thank you for your time tonight. much appreciated as always. >> thank you. tonight much appreciated as always. >> thank you everyone remembers the moment they heard, “you have cancer.” how their world stopped... ...and when they found a way to face it. for some,... ...this is where their keytruda story begins. keytruda—a breakthrough immunotherapy that may treat certain cancers. one of those cancers is advanced melanoma, which is a kind of skin cancer where keytruda may be used when your melanoma has spread or cannot be removed by surgery. keytruda helps your immune system fight cancer... ...but can also cause your immune system to attack healthy parts of your body. this can happen during or after treatment and may be severe and lead to death.

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all right, that is going to do it for us tonight. "way too early" with jonathan lemire is up next. the committee has found evidence of concerted planning and pre-meditated activity. the idea that all of this was just a rowdy demonstration that spontaneously got a little bit out of control is absurd. you don't almost knock over the u.s. government by accident. >> a key member of the house january 6th committee speaking out ahead of the first hearing. set to get under way on capitol hill thursday. we'll tell you