real world tested by you. and delivered to your door in as little as one hour. >> hi there, everyone. 4:00 in new york. a gut punch was delivered to the nation's conscience from the survivors and the families of the victims of the mass shootings of buffalo, new york, and uvalde, texas. just hours before a vote in the house on a sweeping papgage pf witnesses appeared before the house oversight committee and laid out in chilling detail the carnage that has upended their lives and devastated their loved ones. we heard from a mom whose son survived the shooting in buffalo who recounted how she can still feel the shrapnel in her son's arm, head and neck when she

dresses his wounds as well as the pediatrician of the town of uvalde and he was there with the families at the moment they learned their child would not come home. he will never, ever get those mother's screams out of his head. >> i raced to the hospital to find parents outside yelling children's names in desperation and sobbing as they begged for any news related to their child. those mothers' cries i will never get out of my head, but what i did find was something no prayer would ever relieve. two children whose bodies were pulvarized, decapitated, whose flesh had been ripped apart that the only clue was the blood-spattered cartoon clothes clinging to life and finding none. i can only hope these two bodies were a tragic exception to the list of survivors and as i waited there with my fellow uvalde doctors, nurses, first responders and hospital staff for other casualties we hope to save, they never arrived. all that remained was the bodies

of 17 more children, the two teachers who cared for them. my oath as a doctor means that i signed up to save lives. i do my job, and i guess it turns out that i am here to plead, to beg, to please, please do yours. >> quit a moment there. we also heard today from one young survivor, 11-year-old miah cerrillo. the fourth grader summoned the courage to actually tell the story in pre-recorded testimony of how exactly she smeared her own body in the blood of a classmate in order to trick the gunman into thinking she was already dead. >> when he went to the backpacks he shot my friend that was next to me, and i thought he was going to come back to the room, so i grabbed her blood and i put it all over me, and --

>> what did you do when you put the blood on yourself? >> just stayed quiet and then got my teacher's phone and called 911. >> there was a testimony of the parents of fourth grader lexi rubio. lexi was one of the 19 students killed at robb elementary that day. her mom, kimberly, is a journalist. she was at work at the local newspaper when she first heard reports of a shooting at her daughter's school. she and her husband had just been there. they had just been at the school to see lexi win two awards, a good citizen award and another for receiving all as. it would be the last time they would see their daughter alive. >> to celebrate, we promised to get her ice cream that evening. told her we loved her and that we would pick her up after school. i can still see her walking with us toward the exit. in the reel that keeps scrolling across my memories she turns her

head and smiles back at us to acknowledge our promise and then we left. i left my daughter at that school and that decision will haunt me for the rest of my life. soon after, we received the news that our daughter was among the 19 students and two teachers that died as a result of gun violence. we don't want you to think of lexi as just a number. she was intelligent, compassionate, athletic. she was quiet, shy unless she had a point to make. when she knew she was right, she so often was, she stood her ground. she was firm, direct, voice unwavering. so today we stand for lexi and as her voice we demand action. we seek a ban on assault rifles and high-capacity magazines. we understand that for some reason to some people, to people

with money, to people who fund political campaigns that guns are more important than children, so at this moment we ask for progress. we seek to raise the age to purchase these weapons from 18 to 21 years of age. we seek red flag laws and stronger background checks. we also want to repeal gun manufacturers' liability immunity. somewhere out there, there is a mom listening to our testimony thinking i can't even imagine their pain not knowing that our reality will one day be hers unless we act now. >> it's where we start today, congressman jerry connolly of virginia is a member of the house oversight committee and that was the committee that heard this powerful testimony. what will it take for lexi's parents to be the last parents that have to come before you and

plead -- beg for solutions that are right in front of everyone, everyone, everyone knows what to do. >> nicole, right after that testimony and on our side of the aisle, anyhow, there warrant a dry eye in the room. we were handing out boxes of kleenex, and on the other side of the aisle was the repetition of pathological, you know, totems, let's arm our teachers. guns don't kill, criminals do. gun safety laws aren't the answer. they were completely impervious to that unbelievable testimony and that eloquent plea from miss rubio who lost her daughter. if that can't unharden hearts about guns in the congress i

don't know what can, and i think we, frankly, the only answer is for the public to rise up in indignation and insist that their elected officials do the right thing to protect kids. mrs. rubio put it correctly, this is a choice between your love and pathology for guns or your love and devotion to your children. it is that simple at this point in america. >> it's sick that democracy is that the expectations are so low that the bare minimum will be done, but there is a hope, i guess, still that something next to nothing can happen. do you share that hope? >> you know, i'm always hopeful, and i always believe that there is the possibility of grace and that sometimes facts can matter and can trump ideology, but you know, so many of my colleagues

are enthralled to the nra and the gun manufacturers that they are never, ever going to act on guns. we've had hundreds of massacres a year for the last 20 years and we have not passed a single piece of gun safety lgsz, not one. we are now losing more people to gun violence every year than we lost in the entirety of the vietnam war and that still doesn't unlock hearts and minds to do something. >> there is the public opinion of our countrymen and women. 85% of the country supports universal background checks. how do you -- >> yeah. >> as the party that is for gun safety legislation, how do you run a focused and with all due respect, republican-like disciplined campaign against

politicians who are for leaving laws in place that would allow ar-15s to fall into the hands of people who eke out this kind of carnage against children? >> i think we have to do what mrs. rubio did which was to lay it out in stark terms. for your kids and children and saving their lives and protecting them or are you so devoted to your right to hold a gun and anybody else's right to hold a gun that you're willing to sacrifice kids. that's the choice, and i think if we speak in those terms. if we make that clear that that's the choice we face and that's the choice you ought to make your elected officials make, i think we can make some progress. >> i want to ask you to stick around and i want to add shannon watt for gun sense in america. she's changing the actual words of the conversation around gun safety.

former republican david jolly is here. he's the president of the serve america movement, also an msnbc contributor and importantly for this conversation, he was on the air with me as this massacre was taking place, and i think we experienced that as parents and the horror for me, david, in listening to mrs. rubio's testimony was it's the time of the year that we're all making visits to school in our masks, of course, but one of the nice things about this point in the pandemic is that we're file finally being aloud back for these kinds of award ceremonies and you cannot walk away from the kids in school who thought they would see them two hours later and think, did not. we live in a country where an ar-15 can be legally purchased by knowa 18-year-old on his birthday. >> nicole, those parents did something very remarkable in

suggesting don't just think of our daughter as one of 19. her name was lexi and she got straight as, and she was a victim, and if you combine that with the testimony of the doctor who responded who described the physical carnage created by that moment, the power of the words, the testimony that congressman connelly and his colleagues received today in many ways was one of the most sacred acts that an american, an american family, a couple can do which is go before their representatives in the united states congress, petition them with their grievances, tell the story about the violence that occurred in our nation's schools and beg, beg for action, and i think congressman connelly paints a perfect picture for us. you had one side of the aisle who received that message and said we've got to do something, and you had another who said we're not going to do anything,

and you know, congressman connelly says can we unharder hearts with that? we will have to make political decisions and one will tell us that the cost of gas is more important than the cost of gun violence and one party will tell us no, that's wrong. the carnage that happened in uvalde, parkland and newtown and elsewhere across the country might be the singular focus of our politics until we make the country safer for our children. today was a powerful day and it should be an awakening for all of us. >> shannon, a part of the conversation that has shifted and senator chris murphy deserves some of this credit as the shooting was -- as we were learning about it, he went to the floor of the u.s. senate and he talked about the survivors of newtown and he talked to the kids that went back to school and the visions that i had had and the horrors that they had being back in the classroom and the trauma it evoked and he

described teachers or counselors giving kids the word monkey and if they were seeing things or hearing had the trauma of witnessing or hearing a mass shooting in their elementary school they said monkey. when the counselors would say they would hear monkey, monkey, monkey. we have that happening in front of our eyes with the testimony of miah cerrillo. i want to play more of the pediatrician's encounter with her. >> as i entered the chaos of the er the first casualty was miah cerrillo, her face was still in shock and her body was shaking from the adrenaline coursing through through it. the white shirt she wore was covered in blood and her shoulder was with shrapnel. as a baby she had a surgery on

her liver and survived against all odds and she is here. >> i know they talk about video games and porn, but children are seeing violence and carnage and learning to wipe dead classmate's blood on their bodies to survive what's happening in real life in this country. what do we do for kids that haven't lost their lives and have lost any semblance of normalcy because of the violence. >> my god, the testimony that was given today. if anyone's heart is hardened after that -- that mother, we listened to her, and say we can't imagine. we all have to imagine. imagine we are that mother because she is begging us, to save the lives, of perfect strangers, two weeks after her child was murdered inside an elementary school in america and while she was giving her testimony hundreds of us were

outside the capitol telling our senators don't look away. don't pretend this didn't happen and don't think you can run out the clock because we will never forget not just this mass shooting, tragedy and all of the others that have happened in the last few weeks, but the daily gun violence that is killing 110 americans and wounding hundreds more. we have to demand that our senators act and if they don't, there have to be consequences for that inaction. it's the only way we will ever have as david said, lawmakers who represent us, who will do what we need them to do to protect our loved ones and our communities. my god, if you didn't listen to this testimony and think the number one issue that i need to go vote on in november is gun violence. i don't know what to say because this is a crisis in this country and we don't feel safe. we aren't safe and our lawmakers have the power to stop this. what happened in that school was preventable and senseless.

>> we have one lawmaker with us. i want to bring this back to you, congressman, and i want to show you miah cerrillo's father's testimony today, as well. >> today i come because i lost my baby girl. she's not the same little girl that i used to play with and hang around with and do everything because she was daddy's little girl. she's everything not only for me, but her siblings and her mother. i thank god for letting me be here and speak out and i wish something would change not only for our kid, but every single kid in the world because schools are not safe anymore. something needs to really change. >> i want to ask you, congressman, if having these

families make this trip and in some ways relive their very fresh trauma, if you think that is something that can be sustained to change the conversation? it certainly is a combination of harrowing and excruciating and a comfortable and painful to watch, but there is this sense that on both ends of pennsylvania avenue there's at least a slice of hope that this reality -- i mean, this isn't partisan testimony. this is the reality for parents in america right now. drop-off will never be the same. drop-off is now always a moment where your gut clenches and you think maybe -- it's possible, at least that i won't see my baby again. does that have any chance of changing the hardened hearts you described on the other side of the aisle? >> i wish i could say that mr. cerrillo's raw pain that he

shared didn't come with an ideological agenda. he just came to share the pain that he'd just gone through and will live with for the rest of his life. would change hearts and minds, and yet, what have we seen? we've seen one republican who dared to just suggest he might be open to an assault weapons ban have to announce to his own party and the base of that. we are hearing daily from republicans in the senate what they're not willing to consider in any kind of gun safety legislation. so a ban on assault weapons is off the table. raising the age of purchase, off the table. the universal background checks, off the table. this while we're listening to this raw pain. so i wish i could say that i'm hopeful that my colleagues will finally come to the table and understand what your priority is

for america, for our children, but i believe that we have to have a political change, frankly, when that indignation and when that anger and concern are translated into votes in the polls then hearts and minds will follow up here and not until then. >> congressman jerry connolly, thank you so much for being part of our coverage and starting us off today. shannon and david stick around. we'll continue our conversation about this truly historic and extraordinary day on capitol hill with someone who has been on the front lines of this issue and he's lived it since the shooting at marjorie stoneman douglas high school, march of our lives founder david hogg is next. the january 6th insurrection as the select committee prepares to go public with the first prime time hearing tomorrow including reports that the top trump whas

lawyer is in talks to testify publicly. >> gas, guns, you name it, every big challenge in america. life is in front of the president's desk and it lands on this person's desk first. white house chief of staff ron klain will be our guest. all of that and more as "deadline: white house" continues. stay with us. "deadline: white house" continues. stay with us save for my future. so now... i want to thank you. i started investing with vanguard to help take care of you, like you took care of me. te quiero, mamá. only at vanguard you're more than just an investor you're an owner. helping you take care of the ones you love. that's the value of ownership. bipolar depression. it made me feel trapped in a fog. this is art inspired by real stories of bipolar depression. i just couldn't find my way out of it. the lows of bipolar depression can take you to a dark place. latuda could make a real difference

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from an ar-15. as i clean his wounds i can feel pieces of that bullet in his back. shrapnel will be left inside of his body for the rest of his life. as an elected official it is you're duty to draft legislation that protects zair and all of the children and citizens of this country. if after hearing from me and the other people testifying here today i invite you to my home to help me clean zair's wounds so you may see the damage that has been caused to my son. >> we'll stay on that if anyone takes her up on that. it was wrenching testimony today from another mom whose reality is now what she describes there, tending to zahir's wounds. that's her son. zahir goodman, who, thank god, miraculously survived last month's shooting in buffalo, new york. let's bring in the survivor of the 2018 shooting at marjorie

stoneman douglas high school. >> shannon watts and david is still with us. >> david, let me ask you first how you're doing and what is it like to see this happen in another school for you? >>. >> it's horrific. as a survivor it's incredibly hard seeing this happen every day, and inside of our schools and i not only think about when these things are on tv, but i think of friends of mine who goes to harvard with me who grew up in southeast d.c. and has lost over a dozen friends and family to gun violence and they don't get on the news. i think about the people out there every day experiencing this trauma over and over again that, again, do not get on the news because this violence is so prevalent in this country. there are these sick thresholds, right, that have to be met, and i was on the air when your school was -- was attacked. i was on the air when robb elementary was attacked and you

gather the facts, but you're right about that, and i wonder from your perch, how do we change the conversation to capture the face and the frequency and the damage being done at this hour, at this moment in our country? >> yeah, i think the march for our lives that i and my friends founded, shootings not just inside of the schools and outside as well by working with communities is focused on changing the conversation from you're either anti-gun or pro-gun. all of us are pro-peace and all pro-gun safety and that's how we focused by changing the conversations by highlighting especially the young lives that are taken by this senseless violence. and the lives that not only make it on the news, but the ones that don't. it doesn't matter what zip code you're in or what the color of your skin is, black and brown kids all smile the same when they open their presents on their birthday or christmas.

this is not a political issue, this is a moral issue. we must figure out what the common ground is to a doctors how someone gets a gun and why they want to pick it up to address the fact that it doesn't have a role to play and we should not treat hatred as a mental illness and racism is not a mental illness and we have to address the systemic injustices driving gun violence at its root and also address how an 18-year-old or 19-year-old like that at my high school wassaible to get an a rr-15. they have hatred in their hearts and go out and do these things. we need to work as americans working to protect our kids. >> how does that happen? how do you take these horrific moments when it is in front of everybody, every -- every network, even the ones on the -- that lean in the other direction ideologically, no one can look away from something as horrific as the shooting.

it's your school, the shooting at ushg valdy and to your point there are other stories dominating the headlines and how do you take these moments and tragic losses that seem to gut everybody and actually do something about it, make a change? >> i think the way that we take these moments and build a movement is by shannon, giffords, brady and community groups on the ground like life camp and others and focus the movement and building community by realizing that they're a strength in the diversity because we're all fighting for the same cause and sharing that community and realizing that this is hard work and it is exhausting for survivors like myself and especially like the parents who have lost children to gun violence to do this work on a daily basis for the few that can because it is exhausting. we have to per sister. we are marching on june 11th to keep this in the news to make sure this issue continues and we

have 450 marches planned around the country with moms joining us, parents, teachers, kids, gun owners, republicans joining us because they believe in gun safety, we have to wait with mitch mcconnell and if you'd like to march with us. text march to 954954. once again that is march to 954954 and if you have to have that retweeted it's on my twitter. >> we'll send that, as well. shannon, i want to bring you back into this, you spent time when it's come up short in the past and had it changed and talk about where it has you right now and where you think the conversations are and getting something done at the national level and what this looks like moving forward. >> yeah. you know, i can remember ten years ago starting and thinking it will just take a couple of weeks to change federal level gun laws. i was very naive, obviously, but

i think what we've come to realize is that congress is where this work ends and it's not where it begins and for the last ten years we've been on the grounds changing policies and city councils and corporate boardrooms, right? creating the momentum that will eventually point the right congress and the right president in the right direction. am i hopeful? yes. i have to be hopeful and i wouldn't wake up to volunteer every day if i wasn't hopeful. it's about the expectation that our lawmakers will do what constituents want and what will make them safe and what data shows, and we know stronger gun laws do save lives and no matter what the senate does, the world doesn't end and we have to keep this momentum going all of the way through november and show up and vote on this issue and beyond and continue to do the work until everyone in every community is safe. >> david dolly, the reality on the other side of the aisle is very different, and i remember

when it was just mail and now it's populated facebook groups. it's social media curated for the right and the far right. it's the intermixing of content that borders on extremist and violent and ordinary voters and the message couldn't be more different than what we were talking about for 31 minutes now. the message is a threat to the second amendment and it's simple, and it's easy and it is repeated and it is believed. how do you combat that with something that's rooted in truth and fact that's just as simple and easy to believe and motivating to the vast majority of american voters? >> nicole, if a political leader and an organization tells you that somebody is going to take your freedom away it evokes anger and evokes a response, and that's what we see on the right, and i would suggest we need to respond to that by suggesting that your kids and my kids and every family in america has just as much right to send their kids to school with a freedom from

violence and a freedom of the threat of gun violence as somebody does to hold their weapon, and recognize that both in the first amendment and the second amendment and every else in the constitution, fundamental rights are not absolute rights and that applies to the second amendment as well. i want to pay tribut the to shannon and everyone else that's in the right-wing of conservative resistance because there's such a sob right toe fight for incremental change and what you don't hear from the advocacy group is what i want to often reach for which is anger and shame. when this broke i talked about the shape as a parent talking about this situation, but i personally think we need to shame our politicians who are willing to accept the status quo. we often get caught in this debate about what does the second amendment mean? do the red-flag laws apply due

process or not? forget about all of that. there are people who say we need to change the laws to protect the children and other people are saying the sacrifice of our children is simply a rational cost of protecting our own second amendment freedoms and that's garbage and those people should be ashamed whether they're in elected office or facebook followers who are clicking like, like, like. i look at them with shame now, and i think nufr americans need to go to the ballot box on the first tuesday in testimony member of congress that's willing to accept that with a status quo. ? god bless, david and shen an on and other advocates were trying to do it in a way to change laws and they feel anger and shame. what shannon and david have done is mobilized that into real

action. >> i'm with you. david, you do believe this moment is different. explain. >> yeah, you know, i want to highlight what david just said as well. mafrng for our lives is furious, and we are a team and teenager, we did not listen to adults in 2018 and we did what we wanted and we streamed and shouted and pleaded for action and this idea of march for our lives and we're choosing to give our politicians the chance to do the right thing right now by getting them to use the moral authority of the fact that we don't believe any republican or gun owner wants to see kids like theirs die. we don't believe that, and we're giving them the chance right now to do the right thing and bringing in as many republicans and as many gun owners as we can with us, but once if they do prove that they cannot do the right thing, march for our lives is going to go after them in the same way that the nra goes after

people who don't support them. we will be twice as powerful with the movement as a whole acting ferociously and they need to be scared of us because we do touch out. in 2018 we took more politicians than ever before and not by being nice and saying please and thank you and all these things. this is a strategic thing right now. we're giving the politicians the chance to do the right thing and if they don't they'll pay the price electorally. i've never had so many republicans and gun owners message me saying i voted republican my entire liefr. i had a teacher in texas message me on twitter and say i have voted republican my entire life. i'm done. this is crazy and we have to do something about this. you know, for the first time ever i was just protesting in dallas, texas, simply asking for a meeting with jon cornyn and it was the first time out of many, many, many times in texas that i've ever protested and there

were not 40-plus men outside of our event counterprotesting us, carrying ar-15s, mind you, the same gun used in my high school to kill my teachers and classmates and there were zero protesters in dallas, texas. this time it's different and i actually just met with lisa murkowski. i coincidentally bumped into her and i said senator, murr cow sky, her chief of staff was really scared. i'm not the nra. i just want to talk to you and i know you met with me in 2018, please do something about this. please help us, we need your help because no gun law is perfect, but we have to do something to help save our kids. she said i'm with you and i do agree that we have to do something. granted that's a verbal agreement and it's a step in the right direction and we have the infrastructure to make the difference at the state level. it's not the senators that will do it. it will be us. text march to 954954.

once again, text march to 954954. >> thank you for being here. >> we thanks her for being here and david joel, always a pleasure to see you and thank you for spending the hour with us. up next for us, the the first in a series of high stakes public hearings. the first one is in prime time and what the january 6th committee member adam kinzinger says, quote, will change history. that's next. quote, will change history. that's next. we believe there's an innovator in all of us. that's why we build technology that helps everyone come to the table and do more incredible things. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ 100 years ago, a beautiful empire built on black excellence was booming. black wall street. it was a sight to be seen. until one day, it was all burned to the ground. but fire is no match for the fire within black dreamers everywhere. and so, new black wall streets rise.

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thanks to a new federal court order the january 6th select committee is on the verge of getting another, a new trove of information, a batch of sensitive documents courtesy of the trump lawyer who played such a crucial role in the scheme to get mike pence to overturn the results of the 2020 election. that would be john eastman. this late development while a major win for the select committee is also proof that even today on the eve of their first major hearing, the first one in prime time investigators are still assembling their case and still screwing the wings on the airplane as they fly it. eastman was ordered by a federal judge to turn over dozens and dozens of new documents including one email dated december 20, 2020, that he said included evidence of a possible crime. again, this is a flood of new information, new documents for a committee preparing to reveal its work to tell its story to the american people in just over 24 hours.

obviously, witnesses are a huge part of what they will present to the country and there is news on that front, this afternoon as well involving a potential big name. pat cipollone was one of the few people in the west wing with donald trump the day of the insurrection. given how extraordinarily septd ral his testimony could be, abc news is reporting that the committee is in active discussions regarding a potential public appearance of one of their upcoming hearings and this according to sources with that matter. the ongoing procedural discussions include how narrow the scope of questioning would be. cipollone has reportedly made clear to the committee that he would want to keep his appearance laser focussed on the effort undertaken by former top justice department official jeffrey clark to use the powers of the doj to further trump's attempts to overturn the 2020 election. the january 6th investigators want much more of that, considering abc's reporting that in the days following the insurrection, cipollone advised

trump this he could potentially face civil liability in connection with his role in encouraging his supporters to march on the u.s. capitol. joining us from politico is betsy swan, former u.s. attorney and now law professor at the university of alabama, michael schmit, new york times washington correspondent, all msnbc contributors. i start with you and the new tranche of eastman documents. this is from the same judge who has already asserted in a prior ruling that donald trump and his lawyer john eastman likely committed felonies. talk about this new material. >> yeah. what this signals is the federal judge releasing these documents is now perhaps even more convinced that the evidence is growing based on his view of these materials, that eastman and trump, shall we say, did not have a normal attorney-client relationship. the crime fraud exception means that attorney-client privilege

does not cover emails, documents, text messages and any other written communications if the attorney and the client are conspiring together to commit a crime. so if i email my lawyer and i say, hey, meet me outside the bank and then we'll go rob it, that email is not covered by attorney-client privilege. that's the same principle that the judge is applying in this case. he's saying this particular document raises concerns about -- about conspiracy to commit a crime and because of that you can't claim attorney-client privilege to shield it. it's been characterized as an email showing that an unnamed trump world lawyer advised that eastman and his team not seek to go to court on a particular matter because they thought they would lose because they thought the judge would essentially say what you're arguing is not lawful. what you're arguing is against the law, so rather than risk getting an adverse ruling they

decided, let's just not go. clearly in the view of the judge this is directly relevant to the select committee investigation and attorney-client privilege does not get out of congressional investigation free card that eastman can use to keep the committee from getting that document. it's an important development and it shows the challenge to use your metaphor that the committee has in trying to put the airplane together mid-flight. >> joyce, we all became dangerous examples of armchair attorneys during the mueller investigation and the other purchasement trials of donald trump, but one of the things that i thought we were always trying to understand was it robert mueller would ever be able to prove donald trump's intent, whether the things he was saying about vladimir putin. i wonder if there was a piece of this eastman email saying no,

no, no. don't let the judge see this. is that the window into his intentions? >> it is a window into intention and the interesting thing here is that unlike bob mueller who was really focused on the legalities and the technical requirements of proving intent, and the committee is gathered and trying to log the inferences, and we'll have people shining a light in the cumulative intent and it all comes together and you can use all of those pieces to determine intent. this one with eastman is a big one and my sense is that what we're looking at now is this evidence about how this plan proceeded over months. it started out as an effort to use the courts and legal devices to try to overturn the election and ultimately near the end they

realized they could no longer go to court and in this particular instance they were seeking a ruling on the electoral college act and they realized that that would not help them and out of options would then run into january 6th into violence and that, i think, the committee would suggest that was a logical procession of events based on the president's intent and state of mind. >> you profiled join eastman and eastman was described as adam kinzinger as the architect of the cage plot. we don't know if cipollone and the former white house counsel will testify and are luddig will. he's supposed to appear as a witness and greg jacob according to people familiar with the plans. jacob in short was on the meeting on the 4th with trump, pence and eastman.

eastman made the case to unilaterally act to halt trump's defeat. eastman was on the other side of that just in the narrow legal context. talk about what luddig offers come committee in terms of what he did at the time against eastman's theory. luddig may be important to establish the conservative legal mind and the person that in the whole group that if you really want to know everything you need to talk to is cipollone, is the white house counsel. if this committee truly wants to have a full airing of what went on and they can get the lawyer in the white house who -- look, i think, enabled trump and some of trump's strongest instincts in the final two years of the presidency, but in the final six weeks did take some action to

stand up to him and my guess is that, you know, people who would defend cipollone say he'd try other points and trump did a lot of extraordinary things before this moment -- before the election. >> but to hear from the president's lawyer, the white house counsel, the lawyer for the white house about how he was trying to stop the president and what that was like, and i think you were saying earlier that cipollone only wants to talk about the jeffrey clark thing. the jeffrey clark thing is easy to talk about. it's about this person that few people in the white house had respect for that the president was trying to put in, but let's hear from cipollone about what was going on with trump. let's hear about that because that's what it's really all about. the jeffrey clark story has been told. >> let's go inside what it was like to be the president's lawyer at this period of time and trying to -- to stop sydney

powell and mike flinn. >> the pillow guy. >> and whatever -- and i can't imagine if this committee is serious that they would allow cipollone to come in and only talk about the doj stuff. he has to talk this stuff with the stuff and whatever you're down a different road, but the committee, i think, look, for the public a lot of this will be new. a lot of this will be new, and they have not followed every whiff and blow of this like the media, but to sort of signal to the media that there's something new here, the committee has to sort of show something new and different. >> cipollone. >> and cipollone talking about what it was like to stand between the president and the abyss while, you know, essentially the president was trying to, you know -- the president was trying to overturn the election would move the ball. >> and of course his predecessor don mcgahn is the central narrator of volume 2 of the

muller report. we'll pick this up on the other side of the break. don't go anywhere. side of the break. don't go anywhere.

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for me, the greatest benefit over the years has been that prevagen seems to help me recall things and also think more clearly. and i enthusiastically recommend prevagen. it has helped me an awful lot. prevagen. healthier brain. better life. we have to be able to repair the enamel on a daily basis. with pronamel repair toothpaste, we can help actively repair enamel in its weakened state. it's innovative. my go to toothpaste is going to be pronamel repair. we're back with our panel, we're 27 hours and a few minutes away from the first prime time hearing of the 1/6 committee. what are you looking for as this public phase begins? >> i'm looking for tapes, do they show video footage of any senior white house officials describing what happened in the video. do they show video footage of people who helped organize the

rally, people who helped pay for the rally, people who raised concerns about it. this committee's challenge is making the information that they have accessible to people who don't have time to sit down and read a 600 plus page dry report. how they package the information they have is just -- is almost as important as the information itself. i'm really interested in the way that they're going to present their findings. >> you know, it was one of the sort of universally even sporter of robert mueller's probe found that it fell well short of the actual evidence that they had generated in that two-year long investigation. what is your sense of how the committee has learned those lessons and how to apply them? >> i'm not sure. i mean, congress was never able to bring the mueller report to life, is certainly robert mueller didn't help them. i think what the committee feeds to do to be successful is if you look back in history, a lot of

the moments that are captured on camera where, you know, someone is testifying about, you know, a major thing, the information that they're testifying about actually didn't come out at that time. it came out before, but it was that moment where human beings stood up, went under oath on national television before congress that they were able to capture the attention of the information that they did. for example, when jim comey went up and testified before congress in, you know, the summer of 2017 about his relationship with trump, the details, many of the details about that had already come out, but it was the dramatic nature of comey going and testifying. that repeats itself throughout history. so can the committee -- there's a lot of disclosures out there. there's more disclosures about this event than about any event in recent his tor cal times. can they take one of those

disclosures and turn it into one of those moments where someone really brings it to life. >> and for that effort, they have hired a veteran news producer. we'll all be watching together. betsy woodruff swan, the next hour of deadline white house starts after a quick break. ron klain is our guest. don't go anywhere. is our guest don't go anywhere. that's why we build technology that helps everyone come to the table and do more incredible things. ♪ ♪ i would definitely recommend the new sensodyne nourish to my patients. sensodyne nourish has a bio-active mineral action that nourishes and strengthens teeth. patients should act now to prevent sensitivity in the future. the new sensodyne nourish will help patients invest in healthier teeth.

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[ roar ] and do more incredible things. ♪ ♪ you coming or what? over the last two decades, more school aged children have died from guns than on duty police officers and active duty military combined. think about that. more kids than on duty cops

killed by guns. more kids than soldiers killed by guns. for god sake, how much more carnage are we willing to accept? how many more innocent american lives must be taken before we say enough, enough. >> strong words from the president. hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in new york. that was president joe biden's second prime time address to the american people in the span of ten days on the gun violence epidemic, the crisis ravaging and forever changing the lives and so many communities across our country. in that address he called for action from congress for progress, for an end to the senseless violence that has become routine in our country. today we heard gun wrenching testimony from the families and communities still reeling and will be for years to come from the recent mass shootings in uvalde and buffalo, dealing with unspeakable loss, and demanding that something be done. >> i left my daughter at that

school, and that decision was haunt me for the rest of my life. >> i continuously hear after every mass shooting that this is not who we are as americans and as a nation. hear me clearly, this is exactly who we are. you are elected because you have been chosen and are trusted to protect us, but let me say to you here today, i do not feel protected. >> we are lying on the operating table riddled with bullets like the children of robb elementary and so many other schools. we are bleeding out, and you are not there. my oath as a doctor means that i signed up to save lives. i do my job, and i guess it turns out that i am here to plead, to beg, to please, please do yours. >> as we've seen after mass shooting after mass shooting after mass shooting nothing ever does change as she said there. this is who we are. this time, though, people on the inside with the power to enact what could be the first federal

legislation on gun safety in nearly 30 years they are saying today this time is different. senator chris murphy leading the bipartisan negotiations says for his part he hasn't seen this many republicans at the table since sandy hook, yet no matter what results from these talks, it's sure to be far less than the bold action president joe biden has called for. this more far reaching measures that biden has endorsed such as an assault weapons ban, restrictions on high capacity ammunition magazines and expansions of background checks to cover private gun sales are not only table the senator said, but the use of federal grants encouraging states to adopt red flag laws meant to keep guns out of the hands of potential shooters is under discussion as is the system to potentially screen gun buyers under 21 for juvenile offenses and mental health episodes. yesterday white house press secretary karine jean-pierre addressed concerns that what comes from the senate might not be enough for the president. >> we haven't seen this type of -- this type of negotiations

or this type of coming together from both sides in a very long time. it's been decades, so he is encouraged, he is optimistic about what he's seeing, by what he is hearing, the update that he received, and so we're going to see how those negotiations go, and any step, he believes any step is a step forward. he's going to continue to call for all of the things that you heard him lay out when it comes to what he sees as a comprehensive gun reform on thursday, but he also believes that any step forward is important. >> the negotiations on capitol hill continue this afternoon. senator richard blumenthal said he thinks they're, quote, coming very close to a framework, a basic outline of a proposal. glimmers of optimism and the slim possibility of change when it comes to gun safety in this country signaling that hopefully the president can live up to the answer he gave those chanting do something when he was in uvalde. we will, he said.

it's where we begin the hour with white house chief of staff ron klain. ron, i know that everything from baby formula to inflation to weapons for ukraine to the first prime time hearing of the 1/6 committee to guns lands on your desk before it lands on the president's desk. i wonder if you can just take me inside this moment for all of you at the white house. >> reporter: yeah, nicolle, the agenda is full and complete. a lot going on, but i think this gun issue has really hit everyone at the white house, starting with the president, of course, as you said, two-time prime time addresses in less than two weeks, and then that powerful statement yesterday at the white house by matthew mcconaughey, who's a native of uvalde, and came to talk about his work with the families there, and so i think this is a very emotional time for us. the president's encouraged by the progress being made on capitol hill. he got a briefing yesterday from senator chris murphy here at the white house, but this is a time where the country and most importantly the congress needs

to answer the call of the survivors and the families of uvalde, when they said do something and that's what the president wants to see happen now. >> the president, i know at the beginning of his term carried around a card with the covid deaths on it, and i think still has those numbers. does he keep statistics on this soaring toll of gun violence deaths in america? >> yeah, i mean the toll soars. we've seen countless mass shootings since this trgedy, we've seen people shot in not mass shootings every day in this country, and that toll adds up too. it's time for congress to act. the president laid out his agenda last thursday. i understand that we're not going to get everything we want but i think it is encouraging that senator murphy, senator cornyn, others are working and making progress. that's what has to happen. it's not going to solve the whole problem.

it's not going to mean an end to gun violence in america by far. we need to do a lot of other things too, but we need to see positive steps in the right direction at this critical time. >> you know, ron, usually when a president has a priority, the most helpful thing a president can do is move public opinion. on universal background checks public opinion can't grow any more supported. you've got 85% of americans who are for universal background checks, large majorities of the american people for a ban on assault weapons. the president led the negotiations and i think you worked for him at the time, when president obama tried to do something after newtown. do you or he see anything in these negotiations that gives you hope? >> i do. look, i think what the president can do here, as you said, many of these gun measures have strong support. the reason gun measures die in congress is that apathy gets defeated by organized opposition from the gun lobby, and so i think the question isn't one of presidential persuasion, but presidential focus and keeping

the focus on these measures. that's why it was important for the president to speak to the country last thursday night in prime time. that's why it was important to have matthew mcconaughey here at the white house yesterday and senator murphy here at the white house yesterday. so i think he does have an important role here to keep the heat on, to keep the pressure on, to allow the families of uvalde and the other survivors we've seen of these other tragedies through the years bring focus to it. you're right, this has been a long fight. president biden was the chairman of the judiciary committee, the last time congress acted on major gun control legislation in 1994, 28 years ago. he got to know chris murphy well. when chris murphy was the congressman from new town, lived through the sandy hook tragedy and joe biden worked with him then to try to get legislation. i think the -- i think the leadership of senator murphy, his colleagues in the senate, democrats and republicans are critical. the house is also working on this. the house passed legislation today. you know, this is the time to

act. >> ron, will the president be watching the prime time hearing tomorrow of the january 6th select committee? >> he's going to catch some of the hearings i know tomorrow, actually, he's in los angeles for the summit of the americas, and with the time difference and whatnot, i'm not exactly sure what parts he'll be able to watch. these are important haerks. we've done our part at the white house. the president made the decision to waive executive privilege. he believes in executive privilege generally. but there is no executive privilege to overthrow the government of the united states. there is no executive privilege to protect plans on an insurrection, and so we've made documents available to the committee. now they're going to do their job and hold these very important hearings. >> does the president have thoughts about whether mike pence should avail himself to a bipartisan congressional committee and other former officials who have served at the highest levels of the u.s. government?

>> well, he certainly thinks everyone should cooperate with these hearings. they are bipartisan hearings. we've got both democrats and republicans on the committee. they involve matters that should be of bipartisan concern. our democracy, the ability of the voters, not conspire tors to pick the president of the united states. the ability of the lawful transfer of power that has occurred in this country for over 200 years to be continued. so i think he certainly hopes everyone will cooperate with the committee in this investigation. >> ron, i know that you -- a lot of things come to your desk that don't get all the air time that you guys sometimes wish they did. what are those things, and is there -- are there updates on progress that's been made since baby formula and other things have been in the news that you want to share? >> well, sure, i mean, i think obviously when the president got here, our first challenge was trying to make progress on covid, and between the vaccines, the boosters, and of course our

unprecedented role out of paxlovid, we've seen deaths drop 90% since he's been here. schools are open, businesses are open. america feels more like itself again since that, with all that work, and now we've got coming up in less than two weeks, if all the approvals are finalized, vaccines for kids 0 to 5, we're going to finish the vaccination and be the the first major country in the world to give mrna vaccines to the youngest children among us. i think that's an important step forward. we inherited an economy that was dead in the water, 20 million americans were relying on unemployment benefits to feed their families when we got here. that's down 95%. we've got the unemployment rate down to 3.6%, nearly a 50-year low, so we've solved the jobs problem. look, that means we've got this big inflation problem, and we're tackling that now, too. that's the next big economic problem after covid, after jobs. now we have to beat inflation. the president has laid out a plan to do that. we're executing on that plan. we're going to make progress on

that plan to bring prices down. so that's the progress we're making. we have, as you say, you know, problems every day at the white house. you worked here, nicolle, the nature of working here is that every day someone walks in with a new problem. we're tackling those problems, getting the country back to a better place. building a stronger america. >> there's a sense that nothing less than the future of our democracy, whether or not we remain a democracy is on the line. there is adjacent to that, a lot of defeatism for democrats about their prospects in the midterms. how do you get your side back on offense? >> i'm here on the white house grounds i'm not going to violate the hatch act and give campaign advice to the democratic party from this space at this time. what i will say is i think we have delivered on a lot of these key promises, on fighting covid, on getting jobs going. we have more work to do. what i will say also is elections are a choice, and without engaging in election advocacy here from the white house, i do think that choice,

the difference between the two parties is clear, and i think that's going to really shape the fall elections. >> white house chief of staff ron klain on his desk every crisis lands. thank you for starting us off today and making some time for us. it's nice to see you. >> thanks for having me, nicolle. joining our coverage, phil rucker, matt dowd, political strategist, the founder of country over party, and cornell belcher, president of brilliant corner's research. all of them are msnbc contributors. cornell, i start with you. white house -- in all white houses juggling myriad crises that dominate the news, trying to get out a story of progress they've been making is a complicated message. when you were here last time, we talked about how you breakthrough. how do you think they're breaking through and what advice do you have for them right now? >> well, it is, it's awfully tough for them to breakthrough. my advice to them would be communications 101. that is not try to communicate a dozen different things. they need to communicate one or two things and do that

effectively. you know, i listened to that interview you just did with the white house, and look, i'm not going to be a cynical political person here, but this is deja vu all over again and yes, the white house and senate democrats have to go through the process and try to bring republicans to the table, but to your point, nicolle, i watched obama try to do this after new town. i've watched democrats try to do this time and time again, everything from voting rights. i'm not going to fall for the banana in the tail pipe again. i know mitch mcconnell's going to be mitch mcconnell. in the end we're not going to get comprehensive gun reform from mitch mcconnell and the republicans. the only way to do that is, in fact, for the voters to vote one party out and vote one party in, and i think that has to be a clear cut message. the white house can't do it, but from democrats and especially democrat parties a clear cut message, if you want gun reform, you're going to have to vote differently in some of these red

states. >> matt dowd, i hate and i have banned from this program the sort of useless predictions that usually happens in midterms. we know that midterms are hard for a president's party. 2002 defied that because our homeland security was on the ballot. our homeland security is now our elementary school security, and it is most definitely on the ballot. i wonder your thoughts about a simpler message that communicates the reality. >> well, i think you hit on exactly what i've tried to say, and i'm going to keep trying to say in the course of this, is for all the accomplishments ron has laid out and what the white house has done in a very competent way. that's not what this election should be about if the democrats want to win. that is not what this election should be about. it has to be about something at 10,000 feet that basically says our country is on the line. and the democrats have to do this in a way to connect the dots. i've said before we've had this

conversation, in 2004, the number one issue was the economy. we never talked about the economy. we talked about national security. it's why the republicans won -- why the republicans won the midterms in 2002, which was against historical processes. why bush won in 2004 when he looked like he was vulnerable in this because campaigns, the best campaigns are about defining what the campaign and the election is about, and if the democrats were smart, yeah, they have great things to say about covid, and yeah, they have great things to say about the creation of jobs and all of that, but if the election is about the economy and inflation, republicans win. if the election is about something bigger like the fate of our democracy and the safety of our children and our adults and the choices women have when they go to a doctor, if it's about that, then democrats win, and democrats have to get out of the weeds. have to get up much higher in this and connect all the dots. what's going to happen tomorrow night can be connected to gun

reform and can be connected to choice. what's going to happen tomorrow night is a demonstration of a democracy that was under assault and continues to be under assault, and if we lose our democracy, i don't care how much people pay -- what they pay for gas or food and all that which is tragic and terrible and all that, the question becomes is is it more important that the price of gas, what the price of gas is, or is it more important that we preserve our democracy and the lives of our children and the men and women of this country, and that is what the democrats have to do. they got to get out of the woods and get at 10,000 feet and basically say this is an election about who we are as americans and what we stand for. >> you know, phil rucker, i keep thinking that a possible not pivot, but a possible turn in the political conversation in this country could come tomorrow night, and when i think about these prime time hearings, i was thinking about some of the

stories you and ashley parker wrote at the very beginning of the trump presidency with like 46 named, you know, white house advisers and outside, you know, counselors to donald trump that describes a pressure cooker. the difference with these hearings is that all of those people have come out of the shadows and people like mark short, and greg jacob and mike -- i'm not saying they're resources but the kinds of people that used to inform what was going on have all been subpoenaed by the 1/6 committee, and save for steve bannon, they've all testified. most of it's on videotape. what is your sense of what tomorrow night might usher in in terms of seeing and hearing from trump's most trusted inner circle what he was trying to do in terms of overturning the results of the 2020 election? >> i think, nicolle, you've hit on the power of what this committee has done, which is put these inside sources and officials on the record on

camera answering questions and detailing what was happening in the white house and in and around the presidency in the run up to and on the day of january 6th, and that could be incredibly compelling as a narrative for the american people to take in because lots of folks are watching your show every day and reading our paper every day and learning these bits and pieces of the story and piecing it together. but to have on camera jared kushner or ivanka trump or mark short detailing what they knew and what they saw on the record brings so much more sort of credibility to the understanding of the narrative of what happened behind the scenes, and you've got to believe that this committee with all the interviews that they've done is stitching together this narrative in a way to have impact and in a way to compel the public to change minds. their goal is to make americans understand what happened on january 6th and try to kind of grab folks by the lapel and get them to pay attention, and they have the power to do it in the

interviews that they've conducted so far. we'll see what it all looks like together and in context, but that's the difference between what we could see tomorrow night and what we've been following for the last several years. >> it's such an important point, i mean, as you're talking, phil rucker, we might actually see ivanka trump, and i can't even -- my dad doesn't even know what a coup is. i don't know what she says on camera, but it will be the first time we hear her say anything in words on camera about her father's plot to overturn the u.s. government. everyone sticks around, what democrats can learn from last night's midterms. we look to one of the progressive states in the country for any lessons. later, we'll continue our preview of the january 6th committee's very first prime time hearing. it's tomorrow night, and why one of the officers who was injured at the u.s. capitol that day says he worries that the people who northeast need to see the reality of the coup plot won't even be exposed to it. that's ahead. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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amid nationwide trends that show a rise in gun violence, sent pretty clear signals about where even democratic voters' heads are. former republican, a guy named rick caruso ran on a tough on crime message for his campaign for los angeles mayor. he won 42% of the primary vote, and he'll face off against progressive congresswoman karen bass in a november runoff. bass received 37% of the vote there. in san francisco, 60% of san francisco voters voted in favor

of recalling their progressive prosecutor as d.a. "new york times" characterized those votes this way, quote, the two results made vivid the depths of voter frustration in rising crime and rampant homelessness in even the most progressive corners of the country and are the latest signs of a restless democratic, and remains unsatisfied with the nation's state of affair. we're back with our panel. tell me your read on last night's elections. sometimes it's dangerous to extrapolate national trends, so i wondered your thought s on that too. >> first i was going to say, it is really dangerous to make broad national trend conversations from what happens in primaries. i mean, you're lucky to get 20% of the electorate voting in a primary, so to say that america's moving in a certain way because of what 20% of the electorate is saying i think is putting too much weight on the primaries. look, that said, i think, look, democrats and progressives do

have to pay attention to the issue of crime and violence and safety, and you know, like matthew was talking about, sort of how do we define safety, and i think democrats can define safety in a way that's beneficial to them. i don't read too much into the l.a. race. quite frankly you had a billionaire on the call who was blanketing the television and all the ads with way out spending bass. before i go, i do want to sort of pivot back if i can to one point that phil was making because i think this is real important. we're going to get into the campaign weeds on this. there's this thing called earn media and paid media. i think january 6th to phil's point, we'll have these hearings and they'll unfold what was happening, and they'll unfold the conversation about a coup, an active coup attempt that was happening in america. we already know that. we've seen some bits and pieces of that. will that matter? that will only matter if

democrats actually spend money driving a message around it. what we'll take from probably the best we can take from the committee hearings is that so there was a -- politically set the context and environment, look, this is real, they tried to, in fact, overthrow the american people and the will of the american people, but democrats from a campaign standpoint from paid communications is put money behind driving that message and what that means to the average american person, and, again, it is hope and it is fear. you know, what does it mean to you suburban mom if our democracy ends. what does that chaos mean for you and your family, if democrats are going to define that and put messaging and dollars behind that, i think it breaks through. we can't count on it to breakthrough and earn communications alone. >> i want to be really granular here. i want matthew to pick up on

what cornell said. i don't think they're exclusive, and i think that if the committee is able to show what has already been reported that donald trump cheered political -- let's be really specific. he cheered the hanging of his own vice president. he learned that they were chanting hang mike pence and he liked it. if political violence being celebrated by the ex-president can be tied to the rise of violence in american cities, it seems like a devastating message. no republican has run away from donald j. trump except two, liz and adam. i mean, why can't that be something worth spending money on and communicating to the electorate? >> well, i mean, i think january 6th and what's going to happen encapsulates where we are today as a country, and i think they should spend -- if i'm hoping they spend a good bit of time looking in the rearview mirror, but then they spend a bunch of time looking out the windshield and what's ahead because this whole thing about january 6th is not just about looking backwards and understanding what happened and explaining what happened, how dangerous that was and we

all need to have that understanding, but it's actually more important to say what's ahead because january 6th was, in my view, was a test run for what could happen to our democracy, and those pillars that were in place that helped protect us, respirators are systematically going out of their way in this election cycle to remove those pillars, whether it's secretary of states, governors, state legislatures, attorney generals, all of that including congress because congress ultimately had to make the decision in this is, yes, let's understand and explain to the american public what happened behind us, but we have to explain really what is ahead of us and why that matters more. i'll say one thing about california. i know, nicolle, you're from california, and it is hard sometimes to extrapolate things. i did arnold schwarzenegger's campaign. california really is like six states. los angeles is very different from where you're from, which is orange county and san diego.

san francisco's very different, the inland empire is different. it's a country with a lot of different regions in it. >> it's huge, yeah. >> but i think one of the things that it said, which was this counter programs or counter points what a lot of people is the center of the democratic party has not been and is not as far left as some people think. the center of the party. look what happened in new york mayor's race, look what happened in los angeles yesterday, look what happened to the recall in san francisco, that d.a. is going to be replaced by a democratic d.a. but a more moderate democratic d.a. and a more on the ground d.a. that understands what's going on in people's lives. i do think california said, for all the people that said the democrat party is crazy far left, what yesterday showed is, no, not really because democratic constituencies were the ones that removed people that went too far one way or the other. and so i actually think if the

democrats were smart, they said, yeah, this is who we are. we're more closer to the center of the country, the center of our party is more closer to the center of the country, and that's, i think, the most important thing to learn from yesterday's vote or yesterday's races in california. >> you know, phil, i'm going to say something about voters and i'm going to just invite the two people that understand voters better than i do to interrupt me before i get too far. i always have had this sense that voters have as a baseline expectation competence, and when incompetence is displayed and it screws up their lives because the city can't be run or safety can't be created, that -- i mean, i think our greatest fear matt dowd is it's the incompetent stupid, right? i think if you can be tagged as an incompetent administrator of anything, the dmv, a city, a state, it's a deadly political tack. so my question is about how biden communicates the opposite. they come on and hit all these

marks on covid vaccine distribution. you could not get paxlovid whenever you test positive for covid. they are sort of hitting it out of the park on these competence measures. the questions that weren't even asked of donald trump because nobody thought he was competent, not even his kids. so i wonder how you take the absence of incompetent or extreme competence and sell that to a voter. >> well, a couple of things, nicolle. first of all, with trump when he ran for president successfully in 2016, and he barely got elected, but he did get elected in 2016, it was because he was selling the american people on competence. remember, he told everyone over and over again i can do it better. i'm a business guy. i've got the plan, art of the deal, et cetera, et cetera, and enough americans believed him, believed he could be a competent president that they elected him, and of course when he was revealed to not be a very competent president, he lost re-election. i think you're exactly right on the competence point, and the challenge for biden is while he has shown competence in a number of areas, there are a couple of high profile areas where he did

not show competence, the withdraw of afghanistan last summer was a moment that was a bit of an inflection point, if you look at his approval rating and public opinion polls. he started to decline that summer, last summer and has stayed pretty low since then, and you know, inflation has been whether you fault biden and his administration or not, it at least appears to a lot of american voters to be a sign of incompetence. it's the reason for their frustration. it's the reason they say life is not back to normal as promised when biden ran for president. those are real challenges for him to navigate, and i think you're right that it's all about competence. the challenge for biden and the democratic party is to figure out how to tell that message in a different way. >> phil rucker, matt dowd, thank you so much for spending time with us today. cornell sticks around a little longer. we'll turn to january 6th, officer michael fanone says he's

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i mean, i'm happy to hear that they're having public hearings, but i'm disappointed -- well, really i'm outraged to hear that some networks are declining to air

the hearings, just as they did when i testified last year. you know, it's an opportunity for -- to decide for themselves, to listen to the committee's findings, but most importantly to listen to the witnesses. i don't want to say i have no hope, but i think that the people that need to see the reality of that day are not going to be exposed to it. >> that was former d.c. metropolitan police officer michael fanone earlier today expressing some, as he said, outrage there at the idea that the january 6th select committee's hearings which start tomorrow night won't be aired on all networks and worried that they may not move the needle at all in this country with regard to understanding the facts behind the insurrection. fanone, as you might remember, suffered a heart attack and a traumatic brain injury on january 6th while he defended the u.s. capitol. he has been openly critical of those lawmakers who attacked him after he testified last year. fanone's questioning of the

committee's impact reflects the larger question on the table about the committee's work product even coming from inside the committee. liz cheney, the cochair of the committee and one of the only two republicans who serves on the committee has staked her political future on this hearing, and the question she keeps asking publicly as she did when she received the profile in courage award last month, will we do our duty? joining our conversation, amy mcgrath, former kentucky senate candidate, a retired u.s. marine corps lieutenant colonel. she's now the founder of the s.o.s. project. her effort to defeat big lie supporting secretary of state candidates, and msnbc national security analyst frank figliuzzi is back, former fbi assistant director for counterintelligence, someone who helps us through just about every news cycle these days. amy, i want to ask you about officer fanone's concern there and that very powerful way he puts it, the people who most need to understand the facts may not be exposed to them. >> well, i think it's a

legitimate concern, but i agree with liz cheney in that we have to do our duty and look into this incident and make sure that we do everything we can to let americans know what happened, so i think the most important thing is to recognize right now is that january 6th wasn't just one day. this happened, the coordinated broad effort to overturn our election happened way before january 6th, and more importantly, there's continued efforts to undermine our democracy going on right now, and that's what i'm focused on with my sos secretary of state project because trump and his allies are trying to insert folks into these key positions around the country in order to, you know, overthrow the next election, and so that's what we need to be focused on right now. >> you know, frank, liz cheney has said that her -- i think even before the committee was

formed when there was some sense that there be a bipartisan commission way back when when republicans actually went to the negotiaing table in hindsight, not in good faith, but, you know, her goal was to keep donald trump from ever stepping foot in the oval office again. it seems that the mission has shifted to what amy just described, protecting the next election, and you and i talk about the fraudits with some of the derisive analysis that they demand, but also with this real sense that what happened in arizona was lionized, it was copied by other states who wanted an actual fake media event, around which to rally for their conspiracy theories. as amy just said, the conspiracy theories run rampant. what is your sense of sort of the national security implications of broadcasting this evidence to the whole country? >> well, first, i think what's happening here is positive, in a sense this committee's work is a

critical incident report. we've been talking about that in connection with uvalde and the terrible shooting there and doj coming in and doing after action review. that is essentially what's happening with the january 6th committee. the nation does need to know what the next steps are are. it's not just about accountability, getting to the bottom of it, the planning of it. we need to know that, yes, but next steps not only to protect the next election but to protect our democracy and ensure that any gaps, you know, the to-do list of things to protect, things to do to protect democracy, any gaps in election security, in how we handle the electoral college and the ratification of those votes and how we handle the appointment of electors in states, all of that needs to come out. it is a matter of national security, and the fraudulent attempts to get around that should be exposed. but you know, there's another value. you mentioned liz cheney here.

we've talked over the years, nicolle about counter radicalization strategies. there's really two essential components. one, is continued exposure to the truth. we're going to get that in the form of the committee's prime time hearings, but the other is offering those who are radicalized a relationship other than what they're related to right now, that there's another group to belong to. liz cheney, adam kinzinger offered that to people who feel like they are in this rabbit hole, that they're surrounded by these others and can't get out. there's a republican party that used to exist. that's what liz cheney and adam kinzinger are standing for. they're saying you can belong to something else. we do, and look what we're doing. we're all in on seeking the truth. >> and cornell, it's liz cheney and adam kinzinger serving the committee, but the witnesses are top tier donald trump insiders. it's kayleigh mcenany, greb

jacob, it's rudy giuliani, the messengers are not going to be adam schiff and adam swalwell, the messengers are the people donald trump trusted most to overthrow the results of an election he lost. >> i've got to go back to the point that was being made is that those who most need to hear this information, and let's call it -- i think it's fox that we're talking about because fox is not going to cover it. and nicolle, it's mind boggling to think how fox covered every sort of benghazi, you know, story or angle there was, even though there was no there there, they covered benghazi like it was the super bowl, but they're not going to cover the attempted overthrow of our government, and it's purposeful, right? when you look at fox's audience, you know, the point is being made is that the people who actually need to hear this the

most and to -- the ideal of this counter narrative for republicans, people who actually need to hear this the most, their number one vehicle for information is purposefully not going to -- not going to carry it, and i don't think they're ever -- and i think that is a great disservice. look, i don't think whether you're a conservative or liberal, you're moderate, i don't think most americans are actually for overthrowing our government and for a continued coup, which is what we have happening in this country right now. >> yeah, i want to press all of you, everyone's sticking around. we have to sneak in a quick break. i want to push on this open door of who actually needs to hear it most because i'm not sure that the people who are excited that donald trump wanted to hang mike pence are the people that need to hear it most. i think it might be fortifying for democrats to take a message delivered by the trumpiest of trump officials to the rest of us.

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we're back with amy, frank, and cornell. we talk a lot about liz cheney because she's such a high profile purging from republican party leadership. the only person to pay any price in the republican party because of the insurrection was liz cheney for telling the truth about it. but congresswoman elaine lawyer ya is an endangered democrat on this high stakes high profile

committee. i want to read some reporting on her in the "new york times." ms. loria in the second term of a tenure in congress that was supposed to focus on building up the navy finds herself in a tricky spot as the only endangered democrat on a committee about to open a high profile set of as her committee examines how donald trump launched an unprecedented attack on democracy. you just want to thumb your nose at that because that's not the most important thing about serving, she said in low-key defiance. if i don't get reelected because of this, that's okay. it's just an important thing to point out that it's not only republicans who face some political peril as these hearings get under way. >> well, i'll tell you what, elane luria is a classmate of mine from the u.s. naval academy, class of '97. i have no doubt that when push comes to shove, elaine luria is

going to do the right thing for this country. that's the kind of leader she is and the kind of leader we need in this country. it's why i'm so upset with republicans these days, because they know the truth. and they're incapable of putting this country above their political party. i do believe that it's hard politics. it's hard stuff. but those people in that district in virginia have elected a leader and a patriot. she's going to put her country above herself and her party. >> amy, what are the stakes as this starts tomorrow night, in your view? >> i think it's huge. i think, number one, this is bigger than politics. it's about our oath. it's about our country. you know, i also believe that testifying under oath matters. and i think a lot of americans believe that too. while we may think that the greatest super mega trump

supporting folks are not going to pay attention and they're not going to change, that may be true, but i do believe a lot of americans will take a step back and say, hey, this happened under oath and i will take that into consideration. you have to hope that. that's why these hearings are so important for our democracy. and the last thing is, you know, trump's attempts to overturn the next election are happening right now. so it's really important for democrats just to pay attention to the january 6th hearings but also pay attention to what's happening in secretary of state races around the country. >> frank, i want to ask you the same question, and i guess the only thing i would add, a two-part question for you, is, at least on the right, it's going to be harder to not believe people like judge ludig. he's a giant in conservative legal circles. it's going to hard not to believe marc short, he was a loyal, faithful servant to

pence, who was the most loyal, most faithful, subservient to donald trump. these are conservatives' conservatives. >> it's going to be painful. the truth is painful. i think we have to understand something. a couple of things are going to happen. one, it's not just that fox news and others aren't going to show the hearings. it's that they're going to run counterprogramming. it's that the far right has plans for the next two weeks. they're going to ensure there's distraction and disinformation and we're going to see it on a high level here. whether it's a 10,000-strong caravan of migrants headed our way or aliens landing from mars. there will be counterprogramming to this that will try to retain the audience. and that's because they know the painful truth is coming. i'm almost writing off that audience in terms of the fact that they may not get access to

any of this over the next couple of weeks. but the families that are just trying to make ends meet, they're trying to get the kids up for breakfast and off to school, they don't pay a lot of attention, quite frankly, to the ins and outs of the news. and this is a time for them to sit down and go, all right, it's on the network, i'm going to watch it, i'm going to pay attention, it's going to be all over the news. it's that crowd. and then it's the crowd, we talked about anti, counterradicalization, it's a the crowd looking to get away from trump. you know, i'm kind of embarrassed to tell my friends i really don't like trump, he's really disgraceful, i've looking for an out here, and i see the hearings as a method to get them that out. they're going to tune in because they're looking for that rationale, that face-saving rationale. >> and cornell, back to the question i left all of you with before the break, i'm not sure i agree about who needs to see it. you don't need 100% of the people to vote for the democrats

to maintain control in the midterms, you just need to put back that coalition of 18 and 20. and i think the audience for that is the group that isn't necessarily a news junkie but, you know, the hearings aren't just being carries on this network, they're being carried on nbc, on the network. and i think there's a moment not just to retell the story, it's not about repackaging. for those of us who swim in it all day long, that's what it might feel like. it's about a plot to overthrow the u.s. government carried out by donald j. trump at the end of an election he lost. >> you know, we have a saying in the south, it is the truth, don't care who tell it. and i hope all of you are right. i do. i hope that after these hearings, we'll have middle america more incensed and feel more urgent about the threats to our democracy. and nicolle, let's have this

conversation again in a month from now. and let's see if in fact the dial has moved on this. i think having the hearings and having this opening is the right thing to do. i think a lot of people are going to tune in, especially people who are already suspect of donald trump. but in the end, democrats aren't making this a campaign front and center message about them trying to overtake our government, i don't think it's going to move a lot of americans. >> i'm never accused of being the most optimistic, so you've thrown me, cornell, we'll have this conversation before one month is up, but again, in a month. frank figliuzzi, cornell belcher, amy mcgrath, thank you for spending time with us. we'll call in all of you for all of our coverage of these hearings. we'll be right back. e of these hearings we'll be right back.

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a couple of new stories

breaking that we want to tell you about before we go. the house of representatives is right now voting on a series of issues in what's called the protecting our kids ack. the package of gun safety measures in response to the horrific mass shootings in buffalo and uvalde. one other story we learned about late this afternoon, donald trump, donald trump jr., and ivanka trump will indeed have to testify in the ongoing investigation into trump and his businesses being conducted by new york's attorney general letitia james coming up on july 15th. thanks to all of you for being with us today. "the beat with ari melber" starts right now. >> hi, nicolle. welcome to "the beat." i am ari melber. we're doing a big show for you tonight with some of the stories nicolle was mentioning, plus the trouble facing trump allies as we're on the eve, tonight, of the january 6th hearing. also a special report about who controls information and why so many right wingers find themselves on the wrong side of elon musk's billionaire