and i've kept it off for over a year. i was skeptical about golo in the beginning because i've tried so many different types of diet products before. i've tried detox, i've tried teas, i've tried all different types of pills, so i was skeptical about anything working because it never did. but look what golo has done. look what it has done. i'm in a size 4 pair of pants. go golo. (soft music) hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. buckle up, folks. the first in a series of hearings about january 6th in the months' long campaign to overturn the 2020 election result is tonight. the january 6th select committee promising to, quote, change history as committee member adam kinzinger puts it. the panel is preparing to present the american people the story of january 6th and how

exactly the worst attack on the u.s. capitol in more than 200 years came to be. who was behind it and how the threat still looms over every aspect of american democracy? "the washington post" is reporting this about what to expect this. bennie thompson and liz cheney will lead the evening's presentation which will lead testimony from caroline edwards, she is a u.s. capitol police officer who was seriously nnged as pro-trump rioters and members of far-right extremist groups forced their way into the building. here's what january 6th committee member congressman jamie raskin told nbc's garrett haake to have officer edwards testify tonight. >> 150 officers ended up wounded, injured, hospitalized. the united states capitol has never seen anything like that. we've had officers who ended up with broken ribs, broken vertebrae, broken arms, legs, feet, missing fingers,

contusions, concussions and traumatic brain injuries and post-traumatic stress syndrome that dozens and dozens of them are still combatting today. so we need to explain that both because of our investment in police officers and the law enforcement that saved our lives and saved -- helped to save our democracy that night, but we also need to tell their story in order to communicate the seriousness of what took place. we cannot have bloody street violence incorporated into people's political planning in america in order to overturn the legitimate results of popular elections. >> to help make all those points that nothing about january 6th was normal and the brutal violence of that day posed a threat to the system. this evidence obtained by abc news was shot by nick questhead.

he will be testifying tonight. they show the barricades being taken down. a rioter falling off the balcony and speaker nancy pelosi who just moments before this was evacuated by capitol police. >> all we want is pelosi! >> nancy! nancy! >> nancy pelosi! >> and the men who sent those people to the capitol, the man at the center of all of it, the plot to overturn the election, the disgraced, deplatformed ex-president will loom large over tonight's hearing. from "the new york times," the house committee investigating the january 6th attack on the capitol plans to open a landmark series of hearings on thursday by playing previously unreleased video of former president's top aides and family members testifying before its staff. committee aides say the evidence will show that trump was at the center of a, quote, coordinated, multi-step effort to overturn the results of the 2020 election

that resulted in a mob of his supporters storming the halls of congress and disrupting the official electoral count that is a pivotal step in the peaceful transfer of u.s. presidential power. tonight's hearing, nearly a year and a half after the insurrection comes at a moment where it is clear that the country has not come close to reckoning with january 6th and the anti-democratic instincts that now dominate one of our country's two major political parties. just this morning, fbi agents arrested a republican candidate for governor of michigan, a man named ryan kelly, on charges in connection with the attack on the u.s. capitol. kelly is one of nearly 800 january 6th defendants, and he is among the small army of big lie republicans who helped to get elected to political office that would enable the next president who as liz cheney puts it, would, quote, do it all again, if given the chance. the first in a series of high stakes public hearings of the january 6th insurrection is where we start the hour.

dan goldman is here. former assistant u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york. former majority council during donald trump's first impeachment trial is now running for the 10th congressional district and also joining us from broadwater, the correspondent on the byline of what we read today. with us at the table, msnbc legal analyst maya weily and john howlings, executive producer of showtime's "the circus" and msnbc national affairs analyst. i want to start with you, luke broadwater. the times has an incredible almost reconstruction of each chapter of this plot to overturn the election. talk about how much of that comes from what is public facing and how much is yet to be revealed by the select committee starting tonight. >> hi, nicole. yes. we know they have new evidence that we haven't seen yet. so what we tried to do this

morning was put out there the best, easiest to read account of everything we know to date about the various attempts to overturn the 2020 election. we know it started, the first attempt, was through the courts which is the most legitimate way to do it. thaiz baseless and thrown out by judge after judge, but once those failed donald trump and his allies began turning to increasingly more aggressive strategies. one was this fake elector plot which we talked a lot about on the show. another was intervening with the justice department to see if they could change the leadership there and then they tried to explore seizing voting machines and seeing if they could take over elections through the use of force and taking voting machines. finally, when all those paths failed, they turned to assembling a mob on the capitol to pressure vice president mike

pence to go along with this plan, and so we took you through the steps, chapter through chapter, all of the way through who pushed and overturned the election and hopefully will help leaders get a great baseline of information as we go into tonight's hearing. >> dan, i want to ask you. it is -- luke's done incredible reporting on the prosecutorial tools and tactics that this committee has deployed at the hands of very skilled prosecutors and former u.s. attorneys and assistant u.s. attorneys, but the judge and jury in tonight's hearing is not a typical sort of judge or jury in any criminal proceeding. talk about what the approach should be for something sort of criminal trial adjacent, but very much designed to as liz cheney and bennie thompson and others have said informed the public and liz cheney has statesed her goal was to make sure donald trump doesn't come close to the oval office again.

>> you're right, nicole. i would even say criminal trial adjacent is an impeachment trial and that's not even what this is. there really is no direct accountability that the january 6th committee can levy against any of those who were involved in the effort to overturn the election, but there is still a lot at stake. first of all, transparency. let's air all of this out. let's see exactly what happened. and the january 6th committee did a fabulous job. by all accounts, interviewing a thousand witnesses over 100,000 documents. your viewers, i don't think, can even understand what a monumental task that is, and their charge now over these next few weeks and these hear suggests to distill all of that information and to give us the most salient, relevant, probative parts of it so that the american people can truly

understand how close we were to losing our democracy, and we've talked a lot about it where there have been drips and drabs, but i think luke is right. what we're going to see tonight is going to be very different than anything that we've learned up to this point, and i am very interested to see how they framed this opening night which will get the most attention and it is similar to the opening statement that you would give in a trial and i would be interested to see if liz cheney has direct control over this and wants to ensure that donald trump does not become president again. i would expect a lot of this hearing to tie back directly to trump or mark meadows or those very, very close to him. >> as if on cue joining our conversation, congresswoman elaine lauria, she's a be in of the house select committee investigating the january 6th

insurrection. i don't know if you heard dan goldman's point, but we've been talking about how much evidence the committee has gathered to its great credit and how aggressive it has been in pursuing the innermost members of trump's inner circle including his family members. can you talk to us about the committee's strategic decision to include some of the family members in the testimony perhaps even as early as tonight? >> well, you know, i think it is impressive the number the people that has spoken to the committee. we have over 140,000 documents and although there are some people that have defied subpoenas by the committee and saying they won't testify or appear before the committee and the fact that those closest to the president have spoken to the committee and spoken frankly about the committee and the events of that day surrounding january 6th, i think, is a huge testament to the work of the

committee and valuable in presenting that presenting, and i know what happened on january 6th and that's a key part of it. hearing from the people who have the most direct evidence and the people who have the most direct knowledge of what his thought process could have been throughout those events. >> how much is the committee informed by the failures of past attempts to hold donald trump accountable for his conduct in office? >> you know, i think that the committee set out with this to get to the bottom of the truth about the events of january 6th. i would say personally as a member of the committee that has aren't informed my work directly and i am looking for the facts and how broad and how deep this conspiracy was and the attempt to bring different levels of government and within different agencies and the pressure applied on the president. it's a full picture that we need to paint for the american

people. that hasn't factored into my personal view of the work that we're doing. >> what will the barometer for success be in your view in terms of -- of what people are talking about, say 24 hours from right now? well, you know, i hear a lot from the committee and people from my district. as i go around what people say to me the most as a member of congress, they say thank you for the work you're doing on this committee. i think it's important that we understand everything that happened. my barometer will be when i'm back in the district over this weekend and what i hear from people across the district and essentially what impression it's made. i think they'll be enlightened by the information that we will share this evening. >> is there a surreal dynamic? we've watched kevin mccarthy banter with reporters today and say things that are die metrically opposed to things that kevin mccarthy said in the days after the insurrection. can you take us inside what it

feels like when the work of the committee was bipartisan and an aggressive pursuit of the facts and you've got this sort of, i don't know, peanut galleries that's an insult to peanuts and you have the other side that's before the hearing, revising facts that they once stipulated as facts. >> it is a drastic difference between the words that we heard from minority leader mccarthy right after january 6th. at that point he was saying the right things. he said we need to get to the bottom of this. we need to understand the facts and hold people accountable and today he's out there essentially just embarrassing himself with his remarks because how could anyone look over my shoulder and see the capitol being overrun by thousands of people who were violent that led to deaths and attempted to obstruct the work of the congress in which he's supposed to be a leader within this congress. how can he not be more concerned

and i truly think it's embarrassing and it would be that he was on the wrong side of history. >> what do you think of the fact that even in trump's family and closest inner circle you have people who cooperated with the committee like his daughter and son-in-law who are doing quite a bit of asserting the version of their events and participation in the final days and weeks of the trump presidency and you have dead enders like steve bannon and the trade guy willing to go to jail not to tell you what happened in the white house? >> well, you know, clearly they're avoiding talking to the committee because there's something they don't want us to know. i feel like if they defy the subpoenas and they're trying to hide shg. we've talked to enough enough people and two that i think we'll stand on the wrong side of

victory. i wonder if you can give us a viewers' guide and kfrngman rankin talking about it was history. what would be your you vooers' guide for tonight? >> i think that this will open people's eyes. over the course of the last year and a half since the attack on the capitol, people have had the opportunity to hear bits and pieces. people's lives are busy and they haven't had the time to dig into all of this in a way that they understand the chronology and the depth and breadth in all of it and the work of the committee will put that together and paint a full picture so that people can understand, and i'll tell you that from what i've learned over the work of this committee and the last year and a half, all of this makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. i think when americans watch and and they understand the gravity of t not that it's an event and

happens in the past and i think that there are threats in our economy, and our role is to provide oversight, provide recommendations, oversight recommendations to prevent this from happening and it's still cell vant and pertinent today and once people understand and hear the full story behind the course of the hearings, it will be clear why the work of this committee is so important. >> one of your witnesses, cassidy hutchison who was special assistant to the president and when i worked there the second or third most senior official in the west wing, there was a reporting in politico today that she's changed counsel so she can cooperate more with the committee. when the committee talking about administration officials testifying is she one of them and can you speak to her interest in participating more fulsomely? >> i'm not going to talk about specific witnesses other than those who are going to be

speaking tonight. tonight we're going to hear from the first capitol police officer, a woman, caroline edwards who was overrun by the right otters and she will tell are first-hand, and we will hear from nick quest, are, emembeed with that day. >> what is wrur reaction to fox news, a purveyor of a lot of the disinformation that excited the insurrection firsts, yourself. not carrying the select bipartisan select committee decisionses. what's your reaction to that decision? >> i'm disappointed. i want this to reach the widest number of people across the country and i'm happy that there are a wide range of networks and

broadcast and cable will carry it. after we wrap up here i'll be talking on fox news and i hope i will encourage viewers to watch it on the stations that are available. >> it will be on fox business and it would be wild if they had a surge in ratings. that would be good. there's been some reporting about the political risks you face in a pretty divided part of the country, a divided district. do you have any personal nervousness or anxiety or misgivings about your role on the select committee? >> i don't at all. when i went interest this as a democrat who represents a republican-leaning district, i understood perhaps this might not be popular with people at home, and if that presents some political risk to me i'll still be able to sleech at night because i know i got right thing and on the opposite side of the sect wim rum.

we appreciate you taking the time to talk to us. >> thank you. >> john howlman to congresswoman luria, and it is truly a fact finding mission. what's your sense of sort of the stakes and the drama heading into tonight? >> well, there are different members of the committee and some of them are in democratic districts so they're getting brownie points for coming on and if you are in elaine luria's district it's risky and for liz cheney it has been. the stakes are as high as the sky or as high as crowe can count that we live in this country, this amnesiac country where they forget about stuff and even the biggest stuff that happens people have no memory whatsoever so we have given the scale of the threat that we face we have to remind people and we started this out when the

committee was convened, people of good will all said we must get to the bottom of what happened and if nothing ever happens, if nothing else comes of this and if they can tell a complete story of what transpired and what led up to it and what happened in the immediate aftermath that that would be a value for the institution and a value for the country. i don't know how well they'll do that. we'll see. there's been obviously a lot of progress on this committee and some people were skeptical for a while and they bailed out of moment up in the last few months and i'm totally open. i'm going to watch this thing as if i'm a very interested citizen who hasn't spent a lot of time swimming around in this stuff and it's a good way to do it and not pre-judge. the one thing you can pre-judge is the reality which you were talking about the fox news situation and i think this is always their challenge. you know, we'll get to see tonight how good is the video? how well produced is it? i think those things matter. they decide to put things on in prime time for a reason because they thought putting it on a dayside table for a reason.

>> i banged my shoe on the desk for a couple of months saying if these guys don't take seriously the production issue and they have to grab the country by the lapels and with all due respect to the committees, the day side hearings for people who are into politics watch and the people who don't care don't, and i hope they do the greatest show on earth tonight and one of the questions is how many people are watching? how many people are watching whose minds are not made up? and the fox thing and of itself problematic and indicative of a deeper problem thate just the leading indicator of a problem which is many of the people who most need to come to jesus and need to have their eyes opened, where they suddenly go oh, god, they told me the story and it woke me up. many of those people will be watching. i don't blame anybody for it and

that's part of the challenge this committee faces, because just making the democrats angry again will be of some value, but it's not the kind of value which is what the committee is reaching for which is try to raise minds. >> you don't need 100% of the country to understand that donald trump plotted a cue and he ran. >> that curtain number two and een 18 and 20 to come back together. >> think prime time. >> ia, and it would worry me as much as the notion that this large chunk of the country is just closed off to having this conversation -- >> and i guess all that i would

argue is that you don't need to convince the 40% of the country that it wasn't for donald trump. you need to convince the people pissed off about the price of things and these are difficult times and a difficult, difficult moment and you do need to remind people of the other side and it was a coup that they put on paper and they were so brazen they sought to have a coup at doj so that they had their guy there, too. >> i think that's absolutely right. john is right about the structure of the problem which is that so many people will not pay attention and to your point getting to the 51% and it's about the coalition of the willing, but congresswoman luria actually said something so important about being in and looking at it is the hairs on the back of your neck standing up? that story at why it's the hairs on the back of the neck it's not

republican or democrat. that story is about how there was a lieutenant in this war that donald trump was calling for help his name was roger stone. roger stone called up an army. those foot soldiers were white supremacists and extremists. >> and he's been charged with seditious conspiracy. >> yes. they are the ones who said to other folks who showed up that day for a regular old rally and encouraging them which is one of the things i think we'll hear tonight, evidence of encouraging them to violence, inciting them to violence. it seems to me the question here is whether the committee sees the opportunity to make this story one that people didn't expect to hear, right? which was not taking donald trump out of the center, but actually showing how what donald trump did and remember, he did it with birtherism. wouldn't let go of that

conspiracy lie against barack obama for years after it was debunked. used it as a way to create his, frankly, racist campaign in 2015 in the debates, in the presidential election when chris wallace of fox news asks donald trump if he will denounce white supremacy. what does he say? he calls out the proud boys indicted for sedition with texts and evidence that they were organizing intentionally for that sedition and he says stand by. then you have texts from oath keepers also charged with sedition, also part of who there's evidence organized this intentionally said chillingly, we have texts that say we're coming in cogity in on. we will look like you, we will smell like you. this is in the texts and then incites this violence.

here's the point. roger stone's guards in oregon in 2018. this is the story. it's about white supremacy. >> and the conspiracy. >> i have a million more questions, and i want to come back to dan goldman and give him a chance if he wants to defend himself. >> i thought she did a great job. >> it's a really important point that this committee can go to the country with lessons learned with two impeachments and the mueller probe. it's all upside for any committee that comes in. >> they did such a great job he would have been better in prime time. >> we'll pull dan and luke back in on the other side of the break. we'll also talk more about more of the witnesses to come. some of the most important officials sounding the alarm about trump's coup plot said to appear in public before this committee. plus what happens next? the criminal referrals that could very well stem from the evidence we start to see tonight. later in the hour, a live report from the u.s. capitol with the first public hearings just hour

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♪ i've been everywhere. ♪ [ roar ] ♪ ♪ you coming or what? the plan was to overturn the election through the exploitation of -- of the of what i've called the institutions of democracy and the instruments and instrumentalities of our democracy. we know now there's no question about it. they knew exactly what they were doing and they believed it. >> so this will end up being an

important part of the story and gets at everything that we've been talking about. that was former federal judge michael luttig to resist the pressure campaign being weighed against him by donald trump and his allies and john eastman. they were trying to get pence to stop the electoral college results from being certified on january 6th. luttig will be one of the many witnesses to testify in upcoming hearings next thursday along with pence aide greg jacob and georgia secretary of state brad raffensperger whose 2021 call with donald trump is now the subject of a criminal investigation. we are back with the panel. luca, i want to bring you back in on these legal voices and grouping them together. i think it's through the end of next week when they all appear. talk about the importance of everything behind that and how they contributed to what the evidence is that will be presented through all these

hearings. >> well, the retired judge there was one who the pence team consulted with and they were coming from john eastman and donald trump that mike pence this the authority to throw out legitimate votes. they checked with legal experts to see if there were validity to these things and they heard categorically that there was none. there was no legal place allowed for throwing out legitimate votes and for the vice president unilaterally deciding who was going to be the president. so i think we'll hear testimony about that and i think we'll hear state-level representatives lined up in the coming weeks definitely from georgia and perhaps from other states, as well about the pressure they felt when the trump legal team started calling around. donald trump himself personally calling some people, and rudy giuliani personally calling people because what they realized in that moment was

democracy is only as good as the people who inhabit the spots of authority. if there's election judge somewhere willing to violate the law or a governor somewhere or state legislator that is willing to throw out the people, there's nothing you can really do about it and you can't pass anything to stop that. it's up to people to have integrity and so they sought to exploit that to the extent they could and they were rejected time and time again throughout the states by many people who stood up to them so i think we will hear from those people who really stood in the way of this plot and stopped the takeover of an american election. >> importantly, what we're all inching toward and most of them are conservatives. that a conservative's conservative and it's dan quayle who was also consulted by mike pence. it wasn't super clear from the

outset to pence. he sought these opinions because it's been reported that even with quayle he said -- there's some funny stuff in arizona and quayle shut it down and said absolutely not. talk about pence as only in this story does he become a hero to democracy, but it was a close call at the early stages of the conversations, right, luke? >> yeah, and i think we'll hear more from mike pence's top people, i think, next wednesday. the or maybe it's thursday. so the people who ultimately stand up to donald trump are republicans. if you look at the -- those were the ones that donald trump thought could be pressured. he's given up on democrats. he knew they wouldn't budge. so he would turn to people powerful as governors and people as low level as some guy sitting on a county board of elections

who was supposed to be one voter to certify the election results like he always did in the past and those type of people got hatred poured down upon them and pressure poured down upon them to try to go along with this. so yes, it did take from our reporting, mike pence did consult a number of people before finally informing donald trump at the last moment and he put out that statement on january 6th that he was not going to go along with it and then you saw how trump reacted when he encouraged the mob to be angry at mike pence even as they were storming the capitol on january 6th. >> dan goldman, why does it matter that we learned that donald trump was cheered by reports that they wanted to hang mike pence? >> well, that goes directly to his intent and his knowledge or

expectation of what was going to happen that day and that was important in a criminal prosecution, but nicole, i want to take a quick step back. first of all, you made this point. judge luttig was one of the most conservative judges in the entire country in the appellate court of the 4th circuit and what he said is partially right, but partially wrong. he is right that they tried to overturn it, but he is wrong that they knew what they were doing. they didn't know what they were doing, but now they do, and what they've been doing over the last year and a half is changing laws around the country so that they can be successful next time. luke said there's not much that people can do. well, they can change the law. congress can change the law, can change the electoral count act, can change voting rights acts to prevent an individual political appointee from overturning the will of the people, and so there

are things that this committee's hearings can bring out which includes the urgency that our nation faces as we enter the 2022 election and 2024 election when the republicans are gearing up to steal it for donald trump, and we will learn a lot about that imminent threat in the future and congress can do something to change those laws to prevent this from happening again. >> and that is sort of a term that liz cheney made after the committee's work was under way or this was after she was purged from house leadership and she said this is about protecting the future. >> as far as i know she doesn't want to do the electoral reforms and at least the reporting right now is what they're going to do after this that jamie raskin and others want to reform the electoral count act and i think liz cheney is for that and the electoral college which a lot of

sensible people are, because the people who gets the most votes should win. i don't know. call me nuts. she's been very anti-all of the voting rights legislation that has been stalled liz cheney is not for. she's very focused on what the republican party should be, should it be the rule of law there, should donald trump be driven out of her party? she's not focused at all on some of the broader issues that i think some people around this table and in many corners of america are concerned about the future. >> cl which is incompatible, if it is so existential that you're willing to put your career on the line for it, that driving 8 00 voter suppression laws. >> and 55 million people are

impacted by it. i'm so glad you said it because i was itching to. you can't talk about saving a democracy from a would-be authoritarian president in a construct that he used to get there because this started in 2010 with states already and the, unfortunately, far too many republican state operatives saying we -- saying in some instances documented in lawsuits, we'll win if we keep traditional democratic voters from voting. that means black people. that means latinos. that means young people of all races, and it has worked. so the big lie isn't even the new lie. it is something that donald trump used as a poison pill to help his own personal power gain, but the danger if the republican party doesn't say we are also small democrats, meaning we are here for the

republic and that means that we have to find a way, to find a power for all people and to frankly, work through our problems together, problem solve them together and won't agree all of the time, but this is so fundamental to know what trumpism is and so fundamental to what white supremacists are the foot soldiers, and if we don't make that connection. we've got buffalo, and emanuel ame church in atlanta, the anti-semitism, the rise in asian violence. we have violence. >> all right. we are keeping this going. >> not at this table, though. >> let's not do that. >> not at our virtual table either. thank you for starting us off. maya and john, stick around. up next for us, a new preview of what we will hear tonight from the chairman of the january 6th committee. stay with us.

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we've done. we'll talk about a lot of the work that we've uncovered. as i told somebody else, we'll show some never before seen video that we have uncovered, and we'll just tell the story. >> that was january 6th committee chairman bennie thompson promising more video evidence as the committee begins to make its case to the public tonight. the panel says new details will

put the ex-president at the center of a multi-state coordinated effort to overturn the 2020 result. questions remain about what happens next and whether it should or could all translate into a criminal case. the endgame, as punch bowl news calls it today, asking, will they issue criminal referrals against trump or his top aides and will the panel offer proposed legislation to ensure another attack on the capitol will never happen again. former counterintelligence agent pete strzok. maya and john are still here. this almost hybrid event and the public will be presented with never before seen evidence. they were asking that the committee share all of it and the committee's purpose tonight is to do something different. it is as john heilemann has said for politics and i asked congressman luria for a viewer's

guide that made the hair on the back of her neck stand up and what are your thoughts and what's your guidance as we prepare to digest this evidence? >> i certainly hope the committee tonight approaches this from the standpoint of telling a broad narrative. when you investigate things criminally and you bring cases into the court of law, the narrative is restrained to the charges that you have brought and you have to introduce elements of the crime and you can talk with a great deal of specificity about a limited number of events, but what you can't do in a courtroom is to sort of step back and from the 35,000 foot level tell an entire narrative of what went on and when you look at january 6th, that's a very complex pattern of events that started months and months and months before the actual certification of the vote and it continues up until today and the other thing i would worry about is that the committee has done so much work, they've gotten so much information. when you do that, there's a

temptation to show off the detail and to say let me show you each and every piece of evidence and every piece of video footage and every little thing we gathered and if you do that we have a 180-page report, so what i hope the committee does is say we're in prime time. we have an opportunity almost like a mini series to grab america's attention and tell them in a way maybe they feel like it's a court of law, but they're not restricted by any of the constraints that actually exist. i hope they do that. i hope they bring americans in. i hope they don't focus on too much detail on any one, specific thing and i hope they will tell a compelling detail into the future. >> it's about the attempt to overthrow the u.s. government that trump ostensibly led, and we are told to expect testimony from the president's daughter,

son and son-in-law. what does it say to you? >> there is information that they obtained from them that they think is worth showing. as an investigator, when i was doing investigations in congress whether it was russia's attacks on the 2016 election and whether it was hillary clinton's use of a private email server and national security things i was rarely worried that congress was going to surprise me that they had information that i didn't have and frankly, if doj or fiber surprised by anything they see coming out tonight or the next few weeks shame on congress and shame on both the doj and the fbi, but what i did worry about was people that i was investigating if they saw things that they didn't know the government had in its possession i was always worried that that might adversely impact my ability to do my criminal investigationses and i hope and there's some indication that there has some exchange of information between the committee and doj. i certainly have heard the committee's frustrations with

doj about the pace of some of their investigations, but i am curious to see what this new information is, but to your question from jared, from ivanka, i think it is going to be interesting and compelling because if nothing else, the committee knows tonight is their night and they're going to be selecting the things that have the most impact on the average viewer out there in middle america. >> such a good point. pete strzok, we'll continue to call on you as these hearings get under way. more with our panel after a quick break as the coverage of the january 6th hearings continues. continues. ♪ ♪

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can you just clarify something. do you believe that joe biden was the legitimate victor of the 2020 election? and do you believe that donald trump is just flat wrong when he says the election was stolen? >> look, we've answered this question a long time. joe biden is the president. i think you could look that there's a lot of problems still with the election process. they just arrested a former democratic congressman just the other -- was it yesterday in pennsylvania? philadelphia? as we find a lot more information out there, we want to make sure more people have the ability to vote and that it's a secure -- >> that wasn't my question. that wasn't my question. we know he's the president. he lives in the white house. was it legitimate? is donald trump wrong? >> we've talked about this a long time. i've already answered that question. >> we're back with maya and luke. that's john carl questioning kevin mccarthy today. that was today. today.

today o'clock, kevin mccarthy can't say joe biden is the legitimately elected president. what? >> with no evidence at all of voter fraud, and voter fraud that even bill barr said there's no substantial evidence. >> what are you doing? you're having a substantive conversation about this? kevin mccarthy -- even -- it's even worse than that. he won't say it. the only reason that he won't say it is because he wants to suck up to trump because he knows trump will be mad if he says the truth and he also knows that trump will betray him in a heartbeat and will probably betray him no matter how much he sucks up to him. that's the pathetic part. >> that's the point. this isn't about our democracy or our laws. it's about people's personal power. >> yeah. >> i wonder, we were talking in the break and i'm going to talk about the expectations tonight. what's your sense of what bar they have to meet, the committee's own standard? >> i don't know. i just think it was -- i think it was probably a mistake for jamie ras kin to come out and say they were going to --

>> adam kinzinger said it's going to change history. >> i think that's also a mistake. i think underpromising and overdelivering is usually a good idea. i get the fact they're trying to draw viewers but if you're going to say those things, you better live up to it. they better change history or blow the roof off the place because in my covering politics, you having been in politics, you don't say, before a debate, my guy's going to knock his block off. you say, oh, that other debater is really skillful. if he survives, we'll be lucky. that's what you generally do. >> let me -- having worked on a campaign, i think if i had the other guy's daughter or son and son-in-law saying the case i was supposed to make, i might. >> depends on what they have. >> prove the case. we proved the case. we're going to summarize the case. you already know. we proved it over and over again, but you haven't had the opportunity to see it all in one place. we're going to show it to you. >> we already have the smoking gun and you know that. to your point earlier, you could easily have said that without

having to talk about blowing the roof off the place. i think in the end, look, the question is, goes back to the first thing, which is that, how we all talk about this is going to be of not that much importance because we are all obsessive about this stuff and we will use the wrong screen for figuring this out. it will be really interesting to be out in america over the next couple weeks and talk to people and say, hey, to that cab driver or that waiter or whatever, did you watch these hearings? see whether anybody watched who's a normal person, not like us. >> the poison pill of violence, we are seeing spread out in this country, is something that this can be one part of helping to stop. but not if we turn away from it. >> all right. maya, thank you so much for being here, being part of this conversation. heilemann sticks around. up next for us, more with our favorite reporters and friends on tonight's first public primetime hearing for the january 6th select committee investigating the deadly insurrection. the next hour of "deadline white house" starts after a quick break. hite house" starts after a quick break. fishing helps ease my mind. it's kinda like having liberty mutual. they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need.

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♪♪ i was an army ranger, as you mentioned, and i hadn't felt that way since i was fighting in iraq and afghanistan, thinking about whether or not i was going to leave that chamber. it was, you know, literal combat as officers were fighting for their lives, fighting for our democracy, fighting for the capitol building against those rioters. so, it's still very raw and regardless of the fact that some people are trying to rewrite history and trying to say things that did not happen, it did happen. and that's what the committee hearings are about. that's what this select committee is about, to tell that story. >> hi again, everyone. we are one hour closer to the first of what could be some of the most crucial congressional

hearings in a generation. it took more than a thousand interviews and the collection of more than 100,000 documents, but tonight, in about three hours, actually, the january 6th select committee will share with the world what it has so painstakingly assembled over the course of a year, the forensic equivalent of a 1 million-piece puzzle. at its center, an insidious plot by donald trump to overturn the free and fair results of an election he lost. for most of us, it's not that difficult to forget the dread we felt that day, nor the brutal images we all witnessed together in the moment. but tonight's hearing and the rest that will follow are so much more than that. never before seen video, depositions with the people closest to the ex-president, and the planning. and more vital information about what donald trump knew and when he knew it. of course, no matter how persuasive the committee hopes to be, nor how many new details it can produce, the significant

portion of our friends and neighbors will not see it or believe it. from republican laurmz hoping that day fades into memory to conservative media who have practically built a fortress to insulate their viewers from the truth, simply won't be persuaded. still, and yet, the committee has one important goal, to establish as complete of a factual record as possible and to make it more difficult to simply deny the truth of that day. as an example, already today, new footage has been released by abc news from inside the mob, showing how savage, how truly barbaric it was. this video was shot by a documentarian embedded with the proud boys that day. he will be one of the two live witnesses testifying tonight, underscoring the importance of tonight's hearings is that it comes at a flashing red light moment in our country. there are a lot of important problems to solve, but as d.c. metropolitan police officer daniel hodges, who was assaulted on january 6th, said earlier today, our country has to fix this and now.

>> these people are still conspiring. they talk about it all the time. they're getting -- even the ones we've arrested in jail are talking amongst themselves, becoming further radicalized. concern about inflation, gas prices, that's a reasonable thing to be concerned about because it impacts you today. i get that. but this is going -- has the potential to impact you in a much more severe way down the line. so it's important that we look it in the face now and address it now before it happens again and potentially happens with a worse outcome. >> haunting words are we start the hour. jackie alemany is here, "washington post" congressional investigations reporter. also joining us, neal katyal, a georgetown university law professor. with us at the table, the executive editor of the recount, john heilemann and joyce vance is here, former u.s. attorney, now a law professor at the university of alabama. lucky for us, all of them are msnbc contributors.

neal katyal, tell me what you are watching for as the public phase of an event, an investigation that we've talked about so much around this table gets set to present that evidence for the first time to a much larger audience. >> well, nicole, you said that this was a critical hearing, and i agree. i mean, this hearing is -- this set of hearings is more important than the midterms. it's more important than the insurrection. it's more important than even donald trump, because what i'm looking for and what i think these committee hearings are going to answer is the question, how did our democracy get to the brink of basically almost collapsing? and i think we're going to start to hear the first part of that answer tonight. what i'm really look for is, is this a set of hearings that's going to be about the proud boys and oath keepers and what they did? and that footage? which is important, of course. or is it going to go beyond? is it going to put donald trump and those in the white house at

the center of an orchestrated conspiracy to basically stop the lawful transfer of power? it looks like the signs are it's the latter, but that's really what i want to see over the next set of hearings is answering that question. >> neal, we know that liz cheney's opening statement or some point of her presentation tonight will include never before seen video evidence from the depositions with the president's daughter, ivanka trump, the president's son, donald trump jr., and his son-in-law. what would the use of those interviews be? how do you see that strategically? >> well, i think that videos of those two who are so close to the president, i think that's just moving, among other things, it's moving television. it's gripping. it's something that people can understand. it's obviously a question of what they say. i mean, as you know, my fear has always been, this is going to turn into like an episode of "succession" with cousin greg

testifying or something like that. what i'm looking for here is substance from what they actually knew. ivanka trump was in the oval office on january 6th. general kellogg, the vice president's national security advisor, said she talked to president trump twice about needing to stop this. we want to know the details of that, and she also, according to general kellogg, said that he was -- that donald trump was making a bunch of phone calls, even though there's no phone records whatsoever of any of these calls. so, i want to see substantively, is that testimony starting to answer those questions or not? >> joyce, i want to show you something that congressman raskin said on our air about how this will be different from donald trump's second impeachment. >> to my mind, it goes to the question of how exactly these hearings will be different from what the country saw during the second impeachment trial of donald trump in the senate. and that series of events and

discussions that we had focused on one guy, donald trump, and one crime, inciting insurrection against the union. our charge today in the select committee is far broader than that, because we're not looking at one crime. we're looking at multiple crimes, and we're looking more generally at the assault on democracy. now, inciting insurrection had to do, basically, with the mob and the domestic violent extremist groups that had been mobilized against the congress and the capitol and the vice president. but behind all of it was an assault on the election, an attempt to overturn the result in the 2020 presidential election. that's a story that we could only begin to tell just several weeks after the attack during the impeachment trial that took place in the senate in february of 2021. this is a story which we can now tell in far greater detail.

>> as part of that, we've learned that brad raffensperger will testify before the committee. judge ludig, who was advising mike pence in terms of not doing what john eastman wanted him to do. just talk about how much time has benefitted this probe. >> well, the congressman makes a really important point. what we knew at the time of impeachment is not what we know today. people tell more of their stories over time. we've seen that with newspaper reporting, and there is more detail. so, the problem that the committee faces is elevating these hearings so that it's not just the chatter that everybody's been hearing, you know, sort of this constant hum that we've all heard about insurrection, ever since it happened. and the committee needs to punctuate it with new and interesting information that will catch people's attention. that's not important in this sense that i think neal has articulated so brilliantly about the importance of this moment in time and appreciating it, but it is important to get the attention of people, maybe to

convince folks whose normal tv viewing station won't be carrying this, that they need to find a new station and tune in. that's an enormous challenge and that's something that you benefit greatly from with more time, more witnesses. the committee has now talked to more than a thousand people. a lot of the details are fleshed out. >> jackie, we learned today from our friends at politico that one of the central witnesses, well, i'm calling her central. i don't know if the committee thinks she's central or not. but it's cassidy hutchinson, who was a legislative advisor, special assistant to the president, has switched lawyers. talk about what that might mean for the committee and how important her testimony about when mark meadows was told that there might be violence and what republican lawmakers were in the white house means to this public phase of the congressional investigation. >> yeah, nicole, well, our reporting that follows up on politico's great reporting today shows that cassidy switched

lawyers because her past lawyer was trying to convince her not to cooperate with the committee and instead she decided to take a pivot with a new legal team, which is a sign that she is going to cooperate as we've previously reported. there have been people close to the committee and sources on the committee who believe she might potentially be the next john dean, one of the star witnesses of these hearings, and one of the only people really, really close to trump's inner orbit on that day who is actually going to publicly testify and walk the american public through the series of events that went down. the committee is still very much focused on those 187 minutes. that's not going to come until later in this month of hearings. tonight, as we've all noted, is going to be focused on the opening argument and the role that far-right extremist groups played in sort of the

coordination that occurred in order to foment and conspire and create this riot that occurred at the capitol, but later on, we're -- cassidy is going to be a key figure in piecing together and walking people through what trump was doing that day and a lot of the efforts that were being undertaken at the white house by junior, lower, mid-level staff to try to curb the president's unconstitutional and illegal actions. >> you know, it's important that jackie brought this back to those 187 minutes. liz cheney has described it as a dereliction of duty. we know from great reporting in the "washington post" that trump was transfixed by the images he saw on his television. we know that the white house was never on lockdown, so unlike mike pence, trump was never rushed to the pioc as he was during protests in the summer and we learned more recently that trump cheered when he learned they wanted to hang mike pence and they were chanting that. how much do you think the focus on that 187 minutes serves this committee as they try to refocus

the country? >> well, i think about the -- now what i think of as the katyal questions and the vance questions. like, you know, stuff that donald trump did that day to try to -- how his -- what his reactions were, what he did or didn't do in that period is definitely in the vance category, not the katyal category, because how close to command and control trump was in terms of trying to overturn the election, that's not in the wheelhouse of that. i think these issues are super important in the vance category because i do think for many republicans, reading a story in "the new york times" where somebody -- great story, important story, somebody writes a story that says that there was testimony that someone said meadows said that trump said something about trump, hang mike pence. it's not very vivid for a lot of people. for us, interesting, great news breaking. for the average -- for an ordinary voter who might be a republican, who thinks, like, really? these democrats say that donald trump wanted to throw mike pence to the lions that day but don't

really believe it. a clear, compelling video deposition from a senior person in the white house who was -- had firsthand testimony of that, that's the kind of thing that could change someone's mind and could make someone think anew about donald trump, just how -- that's the very human thing that a lot of people need to understand. why did he not send the tweets in why did he not try to save pence? why did it take so long to get the video out? i'm obsessed with -- there was a story a while ago about them looking at alternative takes of that video. it was a half-assed effort, we love you, go home, go in peace. there's apparently prior takes of that video. >> that are worse. >> that is -- i've heard there are prior takes. i don't know. but i would -- the committee has those and we got to see them, those could be very interesting and very viral at the human level of just reminding people just what -- some of the worst behavior, the pure relatable human level is what trump did in those 187 minutes, i think, and vivid evidence of that could

change some minds. >> you know, there's something -- just listening to all of you talk about, you know, i spent my political career in the republican party. for the republicans, it would never be about, you have to have the president's daughter and the person closest to the president's chief of staff and the president's son and the president's son-in-law and thousands of texts from the president's white house chief of staff and the president's lawyer, rudy giuliani, but all that is enough, it matters what they say. the republicans would be like, case closed. what do you think the different standards are that the testimony will be held to tonight, neal katyal? >> well, i think it's more than standards, nicole. i think it's actually a question, a bit of, of audience and the whole colloquy all of us have been having is dancing around that question. there are three audiences here. one is the american people and i think that's what john and joyce have been focused on. but there are at least two others that are worth getting on the table as we think about what the standards are. the second is the justice department and merrick garland. is congress going to provide that kind of evidence that's

going to convince the justice department to move forward on an investigation and an indictment of high-level officials? and the third and the most abstract but to my mind, by far the most important, is the audience of history. it's people studying and understanding what this set of events are. we've lived through something extraordinary in our lifetime, something that people will study hundreds of years from now, and the committee's job has to be more than just simply gripping television or asking the right questions to get someone to turn the channel and watch it. it's got to be getting at these fundamental questions, how did we get so close to losing our democracy and how many people in the american government were behind it? >> and i think one in three, you're right, we probably spend a lot of time talking about, but let me take the bait on two with you, neal katyal. the brookings institute writes this today. criminal intent needed on conspiracy to defraud the u.s. criminal intent would likely be the critical and most hotly

contested element of a 371 prosecution against trump, eastman, clark, meadows and possibly other members of their circle. there is strong circumstantial evidence showing that trump,'sman, clark, and meadows subjectively knew that trump fairly lost a secure election, regardless of their beliefs about the election outcome, these men also knew that the means by which they pursued their objective were deceptive and inconsistent with established law. there is no end justifies the means safe harbor for conspirators who deceitfully obstruct a lawful government function, even if they subjectively believe their cause is justified. you know, eastman, we just learned this week through an email, didn't want to take this to court because he didn't want it to be scrutinized by a courtroom. i mean, there's so much evidence in the public sphere already that comes close to meeting these standards. tell me your thoughts to what you just laid out as that second audience. >> yeah.

i think that the evidence does suggest a crime. the judge that is reviewing the eastman emails and documents has basically written a long, you know, 50-plus-page opinion, judge carter, saying he believes it's more likely than not that crimes were committed and including by up to the president of the united states -- the former president of the united states. and you're absolutely right that turns in large part, and joyce knows this better than any of us, it will in large part on criminal intent, mens rea, but here, there's a host of evidence that suggests that this mens rea standard was met. these people knew they had lost. they took active steps to conceal what they were doing, trying to hide and obfuscate. the very fact that there's 181-minute gap in the record entirely, the most important 181 minutes maybe or one of the most important 181 minutes that the american government has ever faced and it's gone, wiped from the record, all of that is very strong circumstantial evidence

and more that the criminal intent standard will be met. >> and just this basic question, did they know they lost? i mean, jackie, there's so much evidence that the president's favorite wannabe speaker knew damn well that trump lost. here he is on tape talking to "new york times" reporters. >> we need to know and have the facts exactly what happened and when. this needs to be done in a targeted way that doesn't need to distract from keeping the capitol safe over the coming weeks. but what we learned is that people can get in. we learned that people plan. we need to have all the facts, especially for all of us, and we should do it in a bipartisan manner. we cannot just sweep this under the rug. we need to know why it happened, who did it, and people need to be held accountable for it. and i'm committed to make sure that happens. >> jackie, kevin mccarthy is a liar and a hypocrite, that's established for all three of neal's stated audiences,

history, anyone scrutinizing it in a court of law, and our purposes here. but i wonder if even though the republicans have all defied invitations to visit voluntarily with the committee, if we'll hear from any of them. so many of them are on tape and so many made public statements about the results of the election on the day of the insurrection. >> yeah. i'm not sure we're going to ultimately hear from any of the gop lawmakers who were subpoenaed, but i imagine that we're going to see video footage contradicting their current most recent statements, trying to take down the committee and walk back a lot of what they said in the aftermath of an attack that everyone, both democrats and republicans, at the time, unanimously condemned. just how explicit the committee is going to be about the legal significance of people coming out and saying, on the record,

that the election was won fair and square and that they had those conversations with trump remains to be seen. but i think we can expect it to be laid out in a prosecutorial manner either way. you've already seen the committee release excerpts of testimony showing, you know, how -- them asking various witnesses and trump administration staffers, department of justice officials, you know, how many times they told the president that there was no signs of election fraud and that he had lost the election and joe biden had fairly won. and that is questioning that we know went up and down the ladder with the range of people that the committee interviewed, including the lowest level staffers at the fund-raising arm of the republican national committee to people all the way up the totem pole at the trump campaign. >> john heilemann, as close friend of the show and frequent anchor of the program, you get

the last word. it could either be last word or i know you have a question for neal. >> i want to fight with neal katyal, my friend, about one thing. i have a bone to pick. neal said this thing about how he thought the third audience was the most abstract but most important and i would say, i mean, it kind of depends on a lot of things, but one reason why i think the first audience may be more important, neal, is that if we were past the threat to democracy, i would definitely agree with you, that the history is what matters. but we're not past it. so american public opinion is going to determine who wins the midterms, who wins the 2024 elections, and as long as the democracy's still under threat right now, moving the needle politically, even if it's just a little bit, as nicole has pointed out, not trying to win millions and millions of converts but just enough to be able to make sure that democracy holds in 2022 and in 2024, if we don't get through that, i don't really care about history very much. >> and john, i don't disagree with that. i think obviously, the politics

of this and at this moment, when we're so close to possibly losing our democracy again through cockamamie legal theories is incredibly frightening. when there's a lot of stuff that's going on in these hearings that isn't immediately gripping, it's serving that other purpose, that other audience, which is in my mind at least equally important. >> now that you've revised your record to say equally important, we're on the same page. thank you very much, counselor. good to agree with you. >> on that note, we're going to let these two go off and i feel like i hear a podcast in here. take this offline. >> it's very rare where i get neal to back down a little bit because he's about 400 iq points on me. >> because he makes arguments in front of the united states supreme court. he's good like that. neal katyal, john heilemann, thank you so much. jackie and joyce stick around. when we come back, a closer look at the role of the far-right extremist groups, a topic that will be a big important part of tonight's

testimony. plus congresswoman jackie speier on what she endured when trump supporters stormed the capitol and what she expects from the committee tonight. we're just over two and a half hours to the start of the first primetime hearing of the january 6th select committee. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. e" ctionnues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. t the team re. because with miro, they could problem solve together, and find the answer that was right under their nose. or... his nose. moderate to severe eczema still disrupts my skin. despite treatment it disrupts my skin with itch. it disrupts my skin with rash. but now, i can disrupt eczema with rinvoq. rinvoq is not a steroid, topical, or injection. it's one pill, once a day, that's effective without topical steroids. many taking rinvoq saw clear or almost-clear skin while some saw up to 100% clear skin. plus, they felt fast itch relief some as early as 1 week.

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tonight's first hearing of the january 6th select committee will place the spotlight on those far-right extremist groups and the role they played in attempting to carry out the disgraced ex-president's stated goal to overturn the election results. one of the main witnesses testifying tonight will be a british filmmaker who was

documenting the proud boys on that day. an aide of the committee tells our friend, jackie alemany of the "washington post," that the hearing would feature, quote, a whole lot of new material, unseen material, including video and audio obtained during the investigation. joining our conversation, msnbc national security analyst, clint watts, former consultant to the fbi counterterrorism division. jackie is still here. joyce is still with us as well. jackie, take us through what you're reporting on not just this witness's testimony but how this evidence has remained under wraps until tonight. >> yeah, nicole, i think what the committee is trying to do here is really bring the american public in and remind them of what exactly happened on january 6th by showing the full extent of the horrific violence that actually happened on that day and two people who are really primed to do that for the american public, to, again, bring people in, who maybe are tuning in for the first time, is

through caroline edwards and nick quested. caroline edwards was a u.s. capitol police officer, the first one to be known to be injured in correlation with a member of a far-right group, and nick quested is a documentary filmmaker who was embedded with enrique and members of the proud boys on january 6th and in the months leading up to january 6th and has exclusive footage behind the scenes showing some of this coordination between these far-right militia groups, the proud boys, the oath keepers, the praetorian, you name it, that the committee has teased and said, coordinate and conspired to foment the deadly riot. i think the big question here, though, and it's something that i know all reporters on this beat have asked all of their committee sources extensively, is, can you tie the former president directly to these players? certainly, there is the case to be made that we've all seen laid out before, that there was a lot

of call and response. the president -- the former president tweeting, come to the march, it will be wild, and radicalized members of these far-right militias being activated, organizing, and planning their attack on the capitol. but you know, after this 11 months of investigations, of obtaining 140,000 documents, private correspondences, doing digital searches, can the committee actually tie that together? and i think that you're going to see the committee make that case very persuasively this evening. >> wow. clint, we talk about -- or you have unique visibility into what united states these groups, not just the messages and the call and answer as jackie described but what in their view their role was and who sent them there. what do you expect to hear in this testimony tonight? >> nicole, i think the two groups, the oath keepers and the proud boys, both under charges

of seditious conspiracy at this point, will be the focal point. and it was an organized effort, and when i'm looking at the affidavits that have been filed by law enforcement and in the courts, it seems very clear to me, particularly in the case of the proud boys, that they sought to actually break into the capitol. that was their goal. and that is going to be seen as sedition. so that's a very clear sort of line that they have crossed. the conspiracy charges there are very severe. many of these individuals are known because we watched them either film themselves or we watched them on film doing these acts. with the oath keepers, i think it is even more dangerous in the sense that they were talking about having armed caches, bringing weapons into the city essentially just building a revolt, which is quite crazy, and the last part of it that is essential to understand is both those two groups and their leaders met just in the days before, so when we talk about coordination, a conspiracy, what was really the goal of these groups when they showed up there on that day, they were trying to

stop the election from being certified. that was their goal. they were trying to breach the capitol. that was their goal. and they were not very far from actually overthrowing the country, tipping our democracy upside down, and were coordinated in that event. so those two groups are going to be the showcase of it and it's something that's happening really in parallel to all these extremists that we're seeing, these lone shooters around the country, two different groups but equally dangerous for the country at this point. >> you know, and joyce, just pick up on that. i mean, i understand clint's point that the doj investigation is sort of parallel also to the committee's work, but it's not a coincidence that the extremist groups who have been charged with seditious conspiracy had the identical objectives and aims as donald j. trump did. i mean, do you expect a congressional probe that doesn't have the same standards, evidentiary standards as doj does, to make those connections in terms of purpose and a coordinated and explicit shared goal? >> so, there's no such thing as

coincidence in law enforcement, right? i mean, i think the american people, before the events on january 6th, relatively few people would have known that there was a process for the election to be final that required congress to take on this vote, right? that's -- i mean, we voted, we found out the results, finally, with some delay. people thought that it was over. and so the notion that all of these different various groups and people in the white house would have seized on this one moment with no interaction or at least some coordination is very hard to believe. and your question, i think, is about the standard. what is the committee have to do that's different from doj? when i have thought about the, quote, unquote, legal standard that the committee will use with the american public, it's common sense. what does your common sense tell you? you look at all of this evidence. do you believe that donald trump was in the mix or not? obviously, doj, if they take this to trial, would have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, and that's a more demanding standard, but something else that plays in the

mix here that's very interesting is we're not talking about just one conspiracy. and that complicates it for both the committee and doj. we have this seditious conspiracy, which involves the use of force, and it's very serious. to indict donald trump, doj doesn't have to hook him into that conspiracy, though. we also have this conspiracy with john eastman and trump and others trying to interfere with congress's purpose of certifying the election. that's a separate conspiracy. it doesn't require evidence of the use of force. it does require evidence of trump's intent, and that's why so many of these people that you're talking about like cassidy hutchinson, who was involved and who's now believed to be cooperating, was in trump's orbit that day, was there during the 187 minutes, an important question when she testifies will be, can she place knowledge and intent on trump himself? >> it is interesting, and her previous testimony has placed knowledge of violence at the feet of mark meadows, saying he

was warned, but that is the outstanding question. i want to ask all of you about this very frightening arrest yesterday and the threat to supreme court justice brett kavanaugh. clint, you know, we talk a lot about political violence, it's something that you have warned about now for many, many months. we saw a foiled attempt on the supreme court justice's life yesterday. >> that's right, nicole. very troubling because this is that contagion effect we've talked about over several weeks, when there's one violent attack, you oftentimes see several other violent attacks or people thinking about violent attacks. we also see the reciprocation. every force is met with a counterforce, meaning uvalde, this individual that was showing up or appears to be showing up at justice kavanaugh's house, was upset about uvalde and he was upset about the leaked abortion document that had been out and what he thought might be a court case that comes in the summer. what's interesting about it, it was not justice alito.

that's what the document was tied to. instead, it was to kavanaugh. i think that speaks to the broader trend we have of what is known as mediated terrorism, meaning that targets are essentially those names that surface the most out in the public. we saw this recently, right? we had an individual who picked mitch mcconnell and also some democrats like governor whitmer. why did they do that? those are names that surface as targets of political banter back and forth, of violent rhetoric back and forth, and now we have our mobilizers like we've not seen since 2019, and what was the gap there? it was the pandemic. we didn't have large crowds. we weren't in schools. we weren't in workplaces. now we're seeing an outbreak of shootings of all types, some political, some social causes, some active shooters that are just workplace reprisals and some who are mentally disturbed people who just want to cause great harm. i worry about what the summer will look like and how it will unfold because the most dangerous years are election years. political causes and social causes, see that -- they think that year is going to be

particularly significant. combine that with january 6th, abortion, and gun law debates coming up, i think it's a powder keg in this country right now. >> joyce, i want to read to you from nbc's reporting on this. officials say the man identified as nicholas john roske, he was stopped a block from the justice's home when police detained him, he said there was to kill kavanaugh. deputy u.s. marshals spotted him dressed in black and carrying a backpack and suitcase getting out of a cab shortly after 1:00 a.m. eastern time wednesday, according to a criminal compliant. he looked at the officers and then started walking down the street and called 911 on himself, according to the complaint. >> well, first, let's call this what it is. it's an act of attempted terrorism. it's an effort to influence the political discourse, the ideology of the country through violence. and people often want to know what they can do, we're living in troubled times, many people feel like there's nothing that

they as individuals do. something we can do is speak out against terrorism. domestic terrorism, no matter what it's motivated by or who's trying to perpetrate it, and so i think in this moment, whether you like brett kavanaugh, whether you don't like his judicial philosophy, whatever your feeling, we should all stand up and be outraged that there was an effort launched against him that could have harmed his family. he's got young children at home. and that's an appalling sort of moment. then perhaps we can use this conversation to broaden the way we view domestic terrorism in this country. we know that we have had issues with viewing white supremacism with the same sort of certainty and clarity that we view foreign terrorism. this is a jumpoff moment where we can both support someone who serves the country and also use it for this broader important conversation that we have not yet successfully had. >> so, such good and wise points. jackie, i want to ask you, i think absent this alarming incident this week, there was already some anxiety about the

security situation around these hearings. and i wonder if you're aware of any extra precautions up there. >> no. obviously, don't want to jinx it, nicole, but not at the moment. we have not had similar precautions that we have had on, for example, the actual anniversary of january 6th, staffers have not been told to stay home by their bosses as they have been the past year and a half, which is a sad statement on the state of affairs on capitol hill. but that -- those concerns about security and political violence do still stand. i mean, we -- my colleagues, paul, josh, and i, have a profile of liz cheney coming out tomorrow morning and i don't want to reveal too much about it, but you know, one of the tidbits of reporting we have in the very long story is that even her staff fears for her safety when she's at home campaigning in the state and doesn't want her to have events that are too big because of the political

violence and actually, some super interesting parallels there. while liz cheney is, you know, engaged in the january 6th committee, which some of -- people in wyoming have criticized her for being too focused on a national issue, it actually has direct implications for what is going on in wyoming, which is currently grappling with its own hostile takeover of the republican party with far-right extremists and militias. proud boys who are trying to gain political power at a very local level and have so far actually been successful in doing so. so, these threats of violence are real, and these coordinated efforts might not be happening at the same scale that we saw on january 6th and that all -- much of the country was able to witness, but they are still happening at a very local level, deliberately, in order for these groups to accumulate more power. >> such a scary moment. clint watts, jackie, joyce vance, all sticking around. when we come back, we'll be

joined by democratic congresswoman jackie speier, who recalls laying face down, fearing for her life on january 6th. a quick break for us. r her life 6th. a quk icbreak for us bipolar depression. it made me feel trapped in a fog. this is art inspired by real stories of bipolar depression. i just couldn't find my way out of it. the lows of bipolar depression can take you to a dark place. latuda could make a real difference in your symptoms. latuda was proven to significantly reduce bipolar depression symptoms and in clinical studies, had no substantial impact on weight. this is where i want to be.

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you know, my heart's racing right now, and i am trembling, in part because i'm recalling what happened to me on january 6th when i was in that gallery, had to climb around the other

side, and the -- and then lie there on the floor, and then i heard a shot ring out, and it took me back over 40 years ago, lying on an airstrip in guyana, about to lose my life. and i thought at that moment, my god, i survived guyana, but i'm not going to survive this in the house of democracy in the country in which i was born. the president of the united states at the time thought it was fun and an act of great patriotism to come up here and try to overturn the election. so, you may call it political. it was political. but we're going to find out why it happened and we're going to make sure it never happens again. >> that was congresswoman jackie speier in june of 2021 when the house voted to approve the creation of the select committee to investigate the january 6th insurrection. tonight, we will start to see the public phase of the fruits

of that boat and of their labor, the beginning of the committee's findings displayed in primetime. joining us now is congresswoman jackie speier of california. i have seen that. i remember i was watching live when it happened. it gives me chills every time you talk about that. we were just talking about the threats against justice kavanaugh and this almost inching toward normalization of violence and the threats of violence is perhaps one of the most horrific things that has been ushered in under the leadership of the last president. and i wonder your thoughts now on the eve of this public phase of the select committee's work. >> well, thank you for having me, nicole. i would say that this particular hearing will be one of the history-making hearings in our collective house of representatives. i think that it is imperative that the american people hear the story after they have interviewed over a thousand

witnesses and gone through 140,000 documents to determine, was this just a lark? was this an orchestrated effort to overturn the election, to overturn the democracy? and if so, what kinds of laws are we going to put in place to protect ourselves from someone who doesn't like the results of an election and wants to just take over the country? that's what happens in tin pot dictatorships in third world countries. it can't happen here. we can't allow that to happen. >> i mean, everything that you just said could have come out of the mouth of the one-time standard bearer of the republican party, john mccain, but today, kevin mccarthy refused to respond to abc's jonathan carl, who asked him who won the election. can you describe your state of mind? are you optimistic that what you just described can happen, that facts can be laid out and laws can be put in place to protect democracy? >> i think we have to make sure

that that happens. it's now, you know, kevin mccarthy has one thing on the top of his list, and that is to keep his caucus together in support of himself getting to the next rung in his political career and that's what's problematic in congress right now, whether it's gun violence legislation or it's speaking truth to power, i mean, we seem somehow incapable of doing what's right for the american people and are only concerned about what's right for our personal gain. there were, in fact, members who supported creating this commission. in fact, it was kevin mccarthy who charged one of his colleagues, john kafko, to compromise on a commission. then he pulled back on that effort and decided to not participate whatsoever. i mean, we almost lost the democracy. we have people that weren't

respecting law enforcement, that were trying to kill them, and we are somehow going to just say, oh, it was just a -- it was just a game. it was just tourists coming through the capitol. >> it's such a sick -- it's a sick way to treat a threat that was viewed by everyone there as a threat. we've watched a lot of the video that was in the second impeachment trial of donald trump and democrats and republicans alike ran for safety. i wonder if you have any hopes that hearts and minds can be changed in the body in which you serve, in the body in which you're retiring from? >> i think the way you change the hearts and minds of members of both the house and the senate is by threatening their re-election. and if enough members of the public speak up, whether it's on the state of democracy or on the safety of our lives because we

can't go into grocery stores or our kids can't go to school or go to church or go to movie theaters, then you'll see people being willing to change their positions. remember, for 60-odd times, there was an effort by the republicans to overturn obamacare until they heard from their constituents to say, hey, we really like this. and then they stopped it. remember benghazi, when we had over two and a half years, 33 hearings, $7 million to somehow pin it on then hillary clinton, our secretary of state, and in the end, it was a goose egg. nothing came from it. so, it's going to be really interesting to compare these two committees and their end result. >> congresswoman jackie speier, it's a privilege to speak with you today. thank you for spending time with us. >> thank you, nicole. quick break for us. >> tnkha you, nicole quick break for us

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documented the political and public opinion challenges that this committee faces. i think the thing that i have been thinking about, as we go into this, is one of the committee's key focuses of course, is the role of the former president and what he did in the critical minutes when the capitol was under attack. what his alies were saying, what they were trying to do to push the big lie and sub plant the election results. when you see the a threats pushed together, the committee is going to try to create the narrative that the former president had a significant role the play in the january 6th insurrection. and i think what your show often teases out so well is, what are the a legal ramifications to helping the american public draw that conclusion from primetime hearings and over the course of the next month? it's something i have been asking lawmakers on the committee. what happens when americans conclude what you seem to want them to, which is that former president donald trump has a role to play and should face consequences for what he did

around the insurrection. they don't seem ready to answer that. i think -- some of your guests said already -- they hope the department of justice will follow on to this, because of course this committee's job is not to file criminal proceedings. they don't have that kind of power, but of course the department of justice does. i think that's eventually where this is going to lead. the committee will say the legislative pieces of this is where they're going to follow up, things like the electoral count act reform can shore things up and make sure there's no room for error going forward. no one can take advantage of system with loopholes. but at the same time i think looking to the department of justice is where this is going to turn next, and look no further than the fact that they did not move to charge mark meadows and dan scovino, something we're going to be questioning once these committee hearings wrap up. >> if you step back and the committee hits all its marks and

hits everything it was trying to achieve, but a federal judge didn't do anything when he said it's likely eastman and trump committed felonies, then what? >> this is the bottom line -- we need accountability for what the president did. that can come in forms. one of the best forms would be doj holding him accountable if he believes it has sufficient evidence. ultimately it's up to us with voters. we're the people who trump accountle in 2020, we can do it at the midterms and '24. that's the committee's most important job tonight and additional sessions, convince the public to never return these people to power. >> wow, nothing less than that. alley vitali, clint watts, jake i can, who raced off. hopefully she'll be back later in the day. thank you for spending time with us. i'll be back just one hour from now in my favorite place, alongside rachel maddow and joy

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welcome to "the beat." i'm ari melber, and this is it. this is been over a year of investigating. interviews with over 1,000 witnesses. congress got over 140,000 documents. the january 6th committee promises tonight's hearing will have bombshell new evidence and they've scheduled accordingly. this is the first primetime public hearing that they've held, and really the first primetime hearing any congress has held in years. it's hours away. itil