hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. well, last night it was just the beginning. an explosive and revelatory first night of public testimony by the january 6th, select committee made its opening argument clear about the insurrection at the u.s. capitol and who was at fault. one disgraced, deplatformed ex-president named donald trump, an unrelenting two hours that centered on the evidence including never-before-seen testimony, gut-wrenching video and the facts that had never been reported in the press or anywhere also and all around the essential argument that trump himself was the engine and the fuel, his closest allies were the co-conspirators and the plan itself was carefully orchestrated and executed to disrupt the fundamental functions of democracy and government. >> over multiple months donald trump oversaw and coordinated a

sophisticated serve-part plan to overturn the presidential election and prevent the transfer of presidential power. in our hearings you will see elements of each element of this plan. donald trump and his advisers knew that he had, in account fa, lost the elections, but despite this, president trump engaged in a massive effort to spread false and fraudulent information to convince huge portions of the u.s. population that fraud had stolen the elections from him. on this point, there is no room for debate. those who invaded the capitol and battled law enforcement for hours were motivated by what president trump had told them, that the election was stolen, and that he was the rightful president. president trump, summoned the mob, assembled the mob and lit the flame of this attack. republican congresswoman and committee vice chair liz cheney cutting straight to the heart of

the case there that the panel will continue to lay out over the next several weeks, but you don't have to take her word for it, the committee let their witnesses, some of the trump's insiders do all of the talking. watch. >> i made it clear i did not agree with the idea of saying the election was stolen and putting out this stuff which i told the president was bull [ bleep ]. >> how did it affect your perspective about the election when attorney general barr made that statement? >> it affected my perspective. i respect attorney general barr, so i accepted what he was saying. >> jared, are you aware of instances where pat cipollone threatened to resign? >> i kind of -- like i said, my interest at that time was on trying to get as many pardons done, and i know that he was always -- him and the team were always saying oh, we're going to resign and we're not going to be here if this happens or that happens, and i took it up to just be whining, to be honest

with you. >> that happened. the new evidence was voluminous, it was substantial and included evidence of an effort by republican congressman scott perry and other republican members of congress to seek pardons for their roles in trying to overturn the 2020 election. it included an acknowledgement by mark meadows and donald trump's coup plot that there appeared to be no there there on the fraud claims he was publicly peddling and there was testimony that trump did not ever contact the military or lawmakers to help defend the capitol against his supporters, the violent mob. repeated calls by pat cipollone and this revelation. >> the rioters to hang mike pence, the president responded with this, quote, maybe our supporters have the right idea. mike pence, quote, deserves it. >> mike pence deserves it. that's what donald trump said about his own vice president

when he was threatened with hanging by a mob of trump supporters. today we are also learning more details about the witnesses yet to come. they include, nbc has learned former acting attorney general jeffrey rosen whose a tumted ouster was part of a plan to install a loyalist at doj and he'll testify wednesday along with two other former doj officials richard donohue and engel. congressman bennie thompson, thank you for joining us. we were riveted and i watched it along with my colleagues in the studio, and i wonder what your after-action conversations were with the committee behind closed doors after it ended? >> as you know, we've been working for over a year, nicole trying to put what happened, the facts and circumstances and so what you saw last night was the finished product. we tried to tell the public that

body of work that we've put together, the hundreds of witnesses that we've interviewed, the hundreds of thousands of exhibits that we've had an opportunity to look at, and so for the public, we may, in that period of time, an opportunity much of which from a video stand points, the public never saw, but our job is to get to the facts and circumstances around what occurred and the public has a right to know. we had convinced based on what you heard last night that donald trump is the reason january 6th occurred. he invited people to come to washington. he brought right-wing extreme firsts like the proud boys and the oath keepers here who had no real interest in protests. that interest was to scout the

capitol, look for vulnerabilities and breach it and stop the orderly transfer of power. >> congressman, what was so, i think, in the moment the gas that were heard in the actual room where you all were, and around sets and that i heard anecdotally from people that were watching were the new evidence that both you and your vice chairwoman opened with. you know, for liz cheney's part, it was that line, one of the first things she said, she played donald trump's remarks was that to trump, his supporters were doing exactly what he wanted them to do. it suggests a -- a list of witnesses that were inside the oval office and inside the west wing, and i wonder if you can preview any of that visibility that you had that you teased out a little bit last night. >> well, yes, and over the next six hearings you'll see a

broader explanation of that. we will be showing you in no uncertain terms, individuals either by video or by witness testimony that they basically told the president you've lost the election. there was no fraud involved, and if you continue to try to use assets of the government, i.e., the department of justice to promote this lie, we'll quit, but if you quit, and if you stop listening to the rudy giulianis and other people of the world because they are talking about a political solution and we're talking about the legal facts as it relates to the case. you can't say to the department of justice you need to send this letter, and you don't have the authority, the jurisdiction to do it to different states to try

to change the process by which votes are counted. y is we looked at a lot of things and talked to a lot of people and for the public to understand that when the people in the highest levels of government tell you that there's no fraud or there's no factual basis by which you can tell the public that this election is stolen and you still promote it, then obviously, your motive is clearly mitt cal. . >> i worked on campaigns and when you win you'll take the news of the win from anyone, but when you lose you keep going down, are you sure? bring in the pollster? are you sure? bring in the data guy. the lawyer, the campaign data guy. they all told him he lost. talk about the importance of establishing knowledge deep inside trump's family and his inside campaign circle and the

highest levels of the executive branch of the government and you had bill barr saying the same thing. why was that so important last night? >> well, it's important to show that donald trump was operating within a vacuum and that vacuum was individuals who really didn't have it is pulse of what was really going on. they were absolutely promoting a lie. when you look at the highest law enforcement person in the country telling you to your face there's no fraud or anything irregular about the election and this is your person, but you started listening to people who knew they were members of congress who knew they were promoting false ideas and those members all of a sudden start looking for pardons because they knew they were promoting something that was clearly

illegal. so, nicole, over the next six hearings, we will present to the public all these individuals. the one thing we leave open is for any individual who has a difference of opinion, any individual who would want to come and say what you presented is not true. they can come to our committee. they can come under oath, even in deposition, transcribed interview or if there's an opportunity for them to come before the public and -- and get the response that they want to give, we'll give them that opportunity. so we are concerned that what woo saw and continue to see is denial on the part of the former president and members of congress that what happened on

january 6th was not a planned, coordinated incident that even when they were told they went on with the planning. the president encouraged people in his speech at the ellipse to go to the capitol. he said they're taking your rights from you right now. you need to go and stop them. i will come with you. he had no intentions of coming. he had been told by secret service. we can't protect you in a crowd like that. he knew. in other words, he promoted it, he encouraged it and other individuals around him did likewise. so i think what you saw last night was a down payment on more to come. >> wow. when you put it that way, i just have to come back and ask you about the establishment of the

timeline of the proud boys and the oath keepers. i mean, the documentary filmmaker established a timeline totally separate and existing in its own ecosystem from the rally and seemed to annihilate the idea that this was an excited trump rally gone sideways. i wonder if you can just talk about how that evidence was intended to be received? it was clear that what was presented last night in evidence is that the oath keepers and the proud boys met the night before the insurrection in a parking garage and that's on film and that's not in dispute and then they were making their way to the capitol before the trump event had even started and then the mob is directed by trump and he tells them they'll go with them and they'll eke out the violence and the damage and the blood that officers testified to slip on when they were trying to fight them off. tell us the importance of establishing that timeline in

last night's testimony. >> well, what we have to do is make sure at that time public understands that people did not just leave the eclipse and walk to the capitol. the proud boys and others had already assembled at the peace circle surveilling the capitol and making sure that once they wanted to breach it they went to the most vulnerable site. they went to an area that was the least guarded. they made sure that individuals penetrated it in a certain area and when reinforcements went in, they had reinforcements. so it was a planned effort. you can see from the video and we wanted to prove that this wasn't something that just happened. >> yeah. >> it wasn't a normal

congressional tour. it wasn't a traditional speech. this was a riot. this was an insur eksz that was planned and orchestrated by donald trump. >> congressman, i have to ask you, just based on your responses this afternoon, if donald trump asked to come and testify before the committee would you accommodate that request? >> yes. >> wow. all right. well, we will -- we will keep our -- >> we welcome -- we welcome the former president. he would have to come under oath. he's a citizen, and if he thinks he can come to our committee under oath and perjure himself then i would suggest he not come. >> congressman bennie thompson, we appreciate you taking the time to talk with us. we are grateful for the

opportunity. thank you, sir. >> thank you. >> let's bring interest our coverage, betsy woodruff, and jeff figliuzzi, and former chief of staff and the department of the defense and they're all msnbc contributors. you have the scoop that i've been talking about it on the air for all seven hours that i was on the air yesterday. someone like liz cheney comes with something deep inside the oval office and there is cassidy hutchins switching lawyers which she reported yesterday and something that was tease out and i asked congressman schiff with the early evidence she cited about donald trump thinking that the writers rioters did the right thing when suggesting to hang mike pence. there was an opening of the

floodgates with at least one witness inside the west wing. the change that cassidy hutchinson made just hours before this without question is an important development in terms of what happens next for the select committee. we don't know who actually gave the committee the quote that cheney read yesterday, but we do know that it is coin consistent with testimony that hutchinson provided to the select committee, and one thing that i can share as well is the fact that hutchinson changed lawyers according to a person signals a willingness on her part to cooperate with the select committee. it's an 11th hour change, making a change this dramatic and this close to congressional hearings

is not unheard of or unusual. hutchinson's prior lawyer was literally the trump white house's ethics lawyer, a partner of the president of the law firm that he had, reince priebus, he has very deep trump world law wrers and connections. jody hunt was the then chief of staff to jeff sessions when sessions decided to recuse from supervising the russia probe, the special counsel's probe, a move that absolutely enraged donald trump and that was completely in line with the norms and the regulations and the rules of the justice department, one of the most con sequential decisions that any doj official made during the trump administration and it was a decision where hunt was absolutely instrumental. that's the lawyer who is now going to be guiding hutchinson

as she handles the next several weeks of the investigation and figures out what next steps are going to be in terms of what her cooperation with the select committee looks like. it's a big deal involving an important witness, and time will tell how much of a significance we see from this. >> yeah. i -- i agree with everything that betsy has said, jeremy. it is a huge deal and the timing, there are no coincidental timings or decisions like that that obviously are going to be public almost instantly. i want your thoughts on all of it, jeremy, but i want to start with the news that msnbc's confirmed today that jeffrey rosen, the former acting attorney general, richard donohue, the former acting deputy attorney general and steve engel, former u.s. assistant attorney general who also oversaw the office of legal counsel will testify on wednesday. bill barr played a starring role said this anchor never, but bill barr using the word bullshit,

that we bleeped out and i hope people saw it the first time we went live and that was the election fraud and not just in closed-room doors and what he testified to a couple of different ways was that he told donald trump so, and we heard chairman thompson talk about that and what do you make of last night and the testimony still to come from doj officials? >> yeah. i think the key thing, nicole is there was intent. there was intent by donald trump to prevent the peaceful transfer of power, to do so through illegal means and through unconstitutional means and through violent means and he can no longer claim because his attorney general totally discredited his claim. he can no longer claim that he was trying to press his legal rights in court or that he was trying to contest the results of an election and other candidates. >> he was told repeatedly he not only lost the justice department as these witnesses will testify.

he lost his own attorney general who defended him to the hilt on the russia matter. he lost his own daughter. he lost his own white house counsel. he lost his own staff. he lost his own pollster. he lost his own campaign team and he lost everybody around him and they all told him in no uncertain terms you are wrong and that is established clearly for all of the world to so and that intentionality that he decided to obstruct government and he decided to pre vent the peaceful transfer of power. can we talk about jared kushner's answer to the question, to call the white house counsel a wimp or a weinie. i don't know what his point was about whining. this was one weinie introduced into evidence last night and his name is jared kushner, frank. >> boy, i have to tell you, when i see that little clip of kushner i just -- i harken back to many, many interviews i've

done in my fbi career where you just want to say, sit up you sniffling, arrogant individual. i'm interviewing you. the disdain that kushner exhibited just in that brief clip, the body language, he's leaning back in his chair like i can't be bothered with this and the notion that, that literally and figuratively, the white house counsel is the guy who represents what? the rule of law? the right way to do something and he's saying i'm going to quit and kushner is saying both literally and figuratively to the concept of rule of law and the individual representing rule of law at the white house, that's whining. yeah. it happens all of the time. white house counsel -- >> he describes, what's so amazing and frank, this to me, i wonder if it's a red flag for law enforcement and maybe frank cipollone will clarify it, he's trying to hand out as many

pardons as he could and we know there were a lot to seemingly discerning figures and cipollone had threatened to quit so many time that he become immune to the white house counsel that set off alarm bells when i heard it. >> i'm glad you brought it up because so many of us are taken with kushner's dismissing cipollone as a whiner because i was busy trying to give out as many pardons as possible, what? what? and to whom? again, this hints of more to come and multiple members of congress seeking pardons. that's an indication of criminal mindset. you don't seek a pardon if you think everything you've done is legal. >> it's also interesting that we learned that jared was handing out pardons as many as he could,

as quickly as he could over objects that were so severe with the white house counsel. he threatened to quit so many times that jared kushner was immune to it in the 11th hour process. donald trump attacked his own daughter for the testimony that we saw in that clip. we will keep going. we will bring all of this to you. no one is going anywhere. we'll look at what's ahead for next week's hearings and there are three of them. what it says where the committee is headed next. stunning testimony from the chairman of the joint chiefs and that will be general mark milley who told the committee that trump's white house tried to push milley to peddle a lie, a false narrative that the president was in command. that's not the most shocking thing. later in the program, why these hearings are so important and how the insurrection wasn't a one-time event that and more when "deadline: white house"

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the insurrection of january 6th is one of the darkest chapters in the nation's history, the brutal assault on democracy, some losing their lives and we heard about it last night again. it's important that the american people understand what truly happened and to understand that the same forces that led january 6th that remain work today. it's about our democracy itself. we have to protect our democracy. >> we are back with our panel,

jeremy bash, our friend dan goldman tweeted something provocative after an on-air appearance. he said donald trump should be worried about handcuffs. did you see the kind of evidence that would make it hard that merrick garland doesn't investigate the actual plot of trying to overturn the 2020 election and using all of the levers of the government to do so? >> look, nicole, here's where i think we are on that? i think clearly the justice department wants to make clear that no one is above the law, not each a former president. i think if this was any other case of someone trying to obstruct justice and someone trying to engage in violent, seditious acts and it's an open and shut case and one of the things that was done effectively last night was that the proud boys and the oathkeepers were specifically tied to the donald trump inner circle and the conspiracy, the decision, the attack and the armed assault. i think in that regard this is a pretty clear-cut case. that said, i don't believe that the justice department has made

the decision as to whether they want to take that consequential step of charging a former president, and you know, sitting here today, i don't know all of the factors that are going into it. obviously, we all well understand what's on one side of that ledger and what's on the other side of that ledger, but that's a huge decision, nicole and i don't believe the justice department has made it yet. >> say more, jeremy -- i think that what the committee has done is they've almost moved beyond something that was debated and the committee members and the interviews following that reporting was the committee was wrestling with whether or not to make a criminal referral to the doj and they'll show the evidence in the dramatic hearings and chairman thompson made clear the intent of the evidence was that donald trump knew he lost and ivanka believed the bill barr version of who had won and who had lost and the campaign lawyer to the data guys and i've been on winning

campaigns and the losing campaigns and the data guys coming in, and if you were going to win ohio, so they proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that donald trump knew he lost and yet he used all of the levers of the executive branch of government to overturn the election. liz cheney tells me she thinks trump violated and tell me what the other side of the argument is. >> i think in some respect if you were comparing this to a jury or courtroom, to me the better analogy is this is like a grand jury. this is like the prosecutor presenting all of the witness testimony, all of the deposition testimony and all of the documentary evidence in a very powerful presentation and it leaves the grand jury no conclusion other than to say that there is a likelihood and the probability that a crime has occurred here and that someone should be charged and that doesn't answer the question whether or not the justice department wants to bring

charges against a former president. as you well understand, nicole, and everyone around this table understands that takes the united states into a very different territory than we've been in our history and maybe these circumstances warrant it. maybe this is the only president in history that has tried to prevent the peaceful transfer of power that has done so unconstitutionally and maybe it's warranted and i just don't believe that judge garland has made that conclusion yet. >> what do you think? >> you know, i don't know. i'm trying to be candid and honest. i'm not sure i'd say today put the guy in handcuffs and march him off to prison, but i think the testimony last night was so powerful that this is a damn close call. . i think we are beyond an unprecedented moment and betsy, the evidence being presented that the republicans saw pardons and we were awash in criminal

conduct, was there beyond intent. there was contemporaneous reporting about that process, but what we learned last night was that the guy plotting not just the coup against the u.s. government and the coup inside doj to help overthrow the u.s. government sought a pardon. it's pretty damning evidence of knowledge of criminal conduct and we also know that mccarthy was aware of it and it's on the tapes from jonathan martin. >> scott perry has pushed back against the testimony regarding an effort to find a pardon and in your interview earlier with chairman thompson he seemed almost to allude to that a little bit. he said that anyone who thinks that testimony and evidence presented during these hearings is incorrect, there's an open-door policy. >> open mike. >> go under oath, exactly and tell their side of the story.

he basically said, hey, scott perry and everybody else, you're all welcome to stop by if you're worried about the facts as they're being presented. that's the test for perry, does he actually go under oath? he now has an opportunity to do so, and while i won't hold my breath necessarily, clearly the chairman was telegraphing that that's an option that was available to him. additionally, perry is interesting for all of the reasons that you just laid out, but what we also reported is that cassidy hutchinson testified that she saw mark meadows burn papers in his white house office after having a meeting there with scott perry. that's the kind of thing that just raises all sorts of huge questions regarding the role that this man and this member of congress played in the final weeks of the trump presidency as well as the nature of his that

refused to answer questions in the select committee. he's search an important figure and i expect we'll be hearing more about him in the coming weeks as these hearings progress. >> frank, i worked in a white house that gets justifiably criticized for all sorts of things, but nobody ever burned anything anywhere. the idea that people were burning paper is something out of a bad sopranos outtake. what? >> and didn't set off the smoke alarms and sprinklers. this is craziness. as far as attorney general barr said in the clip, this is crazy stuff. look, i think they've got the goods. your brief interview that you led with with bennie thompson, this -- there's a lot there to unpack. one of the things that i saw in the interview was this discussion of, and think about

this, we know this is coming to us in two fronts. it's all about the violence on january 6th, the planning and preparation. who is behind that? and of course, all of the machinations to get the election overturned throughout the states. okay. with regard to the violence, chairman thompson says don't forget that trump had already been told on that day, you're not going down the street to the capitol. the secret service said it's not happening. he is up on the podium and says i'm going with you. we will walk to the capitol. i'm going with you. here's the significance of that and why thompson is mentioning this. criminal intent, right? you've been told it's not happening. we've -- you and i have talked about how that breach of the capitol that day doesn't happen without the crowd and the domestic extremist groups working in concert with each other. the crowd may not have any clue,

right, that this is -- wow. we're part of a larger plan here to get the proud boys and oath keepers in the door and we're going to be human leverage to do that, but trump knows that. the crowd is necessary to get the extremist groups inside the door because either one of them alone it's not happening. the capitol police will fend them off. they're in concert with each other. trump signals the crowd to go and knowing he can't go with them, says he's going and that's where the committee is going that note. >> let me ask you here. this is what the documentary filmmaker testifies to. he testifies to the fact that the extremist groups, they were not at the rally because they headed to the capitol before trump even started speaking, i believe. it's all date stamped video and they had time to go for tacos as the witness testified to and that was as trump was speaking or right before it. so tell me more about what sort

of evidence you're now looking for now that the two pieces of the insurrection being successful and in terms of the breach of the capitol it was wildly successful. it worked. pence left. they all left, but for pence refusing to get in the car, they basically pulled off exactly what they sought to pull off. >> yeah. i'm fascinated and keyed in on this domestic extremist violence angle because first of all, i think it's a slam dunk on the other approach, by the way. i think the machinations to overturn the elections, the alternate slates of electors. i think that's a slam dunk and i'm intrigued to see where they go with the proud boys and the oathkeepers because we know as we covered them through the years there are strong connections between roger stone, matt gaetz, ted cruz showing up and where oath keepers show up, all of this bad seed, right?

i think this is all going to come together and that's what i'll be looking for is who is close to trump who is really pulling the strings and coordinating this and what have they shared with president trump? i live blogged for msnbc during one of the hearings and one of the posts i posted was 1957, j. edgar hoover had refused to understand that there was an organized mafia in america that pose good kind of of a threat. some local cops in upstate new york tripped over a meeting of a hundred italian mobsters including six capos in one place that proved there was an organized threat. where am i going with this? the video that the documentarian took in the apartment garage of know oath keepers leader and the proud boys leader meeting, is that kind of wake-up call for law enforcement and for america about the domestic extremists which we currently face.

>> it is so interesting and you're the three they wanted to speak to most. betsy woodruff-swann, jeremy bash, what we learned about mark meadows' p.r. strategy on january 6th to install the narrative of who was in charge while the capitol was being attacked. stay with us. pitowal s being attacked stay with us there's a monster problem and our hero needs solutions. so she starts a miro to brainstorm. “shoot it?” suggests the scientists. so they shoot it. hmm... back to the miro board. dave says “feed it?” and dave feeds it. just then our hero has a breakthrough. "shoot it, camera, shoot a movie!" and so our humble team saves the day by working together.

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refuse to tell the mob to leave the capitol. he placed no call to any element of the united states government to instruct that the capitol be defended. he did not call his secretary of defense on january 6th. he did not talk to his attorney general. he did not talk to the department of homeland security. president trump gave no order to deploy the national guard that day, and he made no effort to work with the department of justice to coordinate and deploy law enforcement assets. vice president pence did each of those things. >> it was another stunning revelation for many reasons from the january 6th committee. the completing action from the president and an attempt to fill in that missing call log and the hours that were missing and liz's testimony there that trump refused to call the military as his supporters stormed and vandalized and beat, engaged in combat with law enforcement officials protecting the u.s. capitol help committee vice

chair liz cheney introduced testimony from general mark milley, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff that confirm that while pence took all of those actions that trump was willing to do. his team still came back and tried to clean that up and insisted on milley getting involved in spinning how his inaction would look and how they wanted milley to re-write the narrative. watch. >> there were two or three calls with vice president pence. he was very animated and he issued very explicit, very direct, unambiguous orders. there was no question about that, and he was -- and i can get you the exact quotes, i guess, from some of our records somewhere, but he was very animated and very direct, very firm to secretary milley, get the military down there, get the guard down here, put down this situation, et cetera. >> by contrast, here is general

milley's description of his conversation with president trump's chief of staff mark meadows on january 6th. >> he said we have to -- we str have to kill the narrative that the vice president is making all the decisions. we need to establish the narrative that, you know, that the president is still in charge and that things are steady or stable or that sort of thing. i immediately interpreted that as politics, politics, politics, red flag for me, personally, no action, but i remember distinctly. >> joining us now and jonathan lemire, the host of nbc's way too early and also an msnbc political analyst. rick stangel is here, msnbc political analyst and form top official in the u.s. state department. jonathan lemire, two questions for you. one, it looks like even with some missing calls in the log what the committee's

investigators have done is gone the other way and to answer questions over whether trump did or did not talk to the military, did or did not talk to the attorney general, did or did not engage dhs, did or did not call for the national guard. they obviously have that information from other agencies and liz testified to it and then this bigger question that i want to ask both of you about. who was commander in chief on january 6th? >> i think what is clear, one of the findings from last night's blockbuster and rather stunning first day of these hearings is that there was a dereliction of duty from the president of the united states on the day that presented the greatest challenge to his term, a challenge completely of his own creation. it was very clear. first of all, the investigative work, the committee worked from the outside in that even if the white house wasn't going to cooperate and even if the white house was having missing phone logs they would talk to everyone else and re-create the day and piece together president trump's

actions on january 6th and we know he spent the vast majority of it in the private dining room just off the oval office where there is a bank of televisions and he walked with glee at times where he was watching scenes of the riot and the violence at the capitol. it was clear he could rpt be moved and we know from mark meadows' text messages, we know how many republicans, how many fox news hosts and allies were pleading with him to do something, he didn't. we know people burst into the oval office and including ivanka trump pleading to do something, he didn't. there were hang mike pence chants ringing through the capitol. donald trump heard in the committee last night was approving of these chants and with his life in danger and it was up to him to call the pentagon to get the pentagon to finally be deployed and he had to do it because donald trump,

the man who created this siege and this riot, this insurrection couldn't be bothered and to sort of malicious, intentional lies and it was pence's once and for all. we have the testimony that marc short went to the secret service the day before, 24 hours ahead of time and said, the vice president will be in danger tomorrow. there is nothing that wasn't known to the most senior white house officials about violence on the 6th, rick. >> yes. well i'm glad you zeroed in on this particular passage. it's my favorite one because i think it crystallizes so much about donald trump himself and the trump administration. i have a slightly radical interpretation of what was going on there. donald trump had no idea how to be president. he had no idea how to govern and

even after one term in office he would have no idea that he needed to call the chairman of the joint chiefs or the secretary of defense or the department of homeland security or the attorney general, doesn't know how to operate the system. >> he wanted all of them to steal voting machines. he did a week earlier when he wanted the pentagon and the department of homeland security and he didn't know how to deploy them to save anybody, including mike pence. >> every memoir that's been written, he says that in general in the oval office and he hopes people comply, but if you had to say to him, who do you call to steal voting machines he wouldn't know. he doesn't even be the basic thing about how to be the chief executive officer of the united states and the contrast with mike pence is stunning. mike pence is a longtime government employee. he knew exactly what to do. he needed to call the attorney general. he needed to call the joint chiefs. he needed to call about the national guard. i actually think donald trump,

he was frozen because the narrative was going the wrong way and he had no idea what to do, and that also crystallizes the other idea is that being president for him was only about the narrative. the narrative being presidential was a presidential he had no idea how to govern, and mark meadows became the fall guy, the only guy who could try to execute that for him. it's just -- he was just an empty, empty suit, the emperor had no clothes. although, he endangered democracy both through ignorance and through venom. >> i'm going to ask both of you to stick around. when we come back, the committee last night speaking with one of the first law enforcement officers who was injured in the riot. we'll bring you her emotional testimony next. we'll bring you her emotional testimony next

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only at vanguard you're more than just an investor you're an owner. that means that your priorities are ours too. our interactive tools and advice can help you build a future for the ones you love. that's the value of ownership. what i saw was just a war scene. it was something like i had seen out of the movies. there were officers on the ground, you know, they were bleeding. they were throwing up. they were -- you know, they had -- i mean, i saw friends with blood all over their faces. i was slipping in people's blood. it was carnage. it was chaos. never in my wildest dreams did i think that as a police officer, as a law enforcement officer, i

would find myself in the middle of a battle. >> that was perhaps the most emotional part of last night. it was u.s. capitol police officer caroline edwards describing her horrific firsthand experience as she fought back against the trump mob, calling it nothing less than a war scene. edwards became, for many, the face of the violence encountered by law enforcement officials that day. more than 100 of them were badly beaten and left injured. we're back with jonathan and rick. jonathan, all these officers, we got to speak to harry dunn before the testimony. i know we have been -- it's an honor to get to speak to some of these law enforcement officials about what they endured that day. something about her testimony, bringing it back a year and a half later, took you right back to the moments when we were all watching it on our tvs. >> yeah, it really did, and she was the human face last night of what happened that day. she herself suffered a traumatic brain injury and described the violence she saw and her

colleagues get seriously injured. we know a few of them lost their lives in the days that followed. the insurrection. and as damning as the facts were about donald trump's behavior that day, it was her testimony and particularly the video, the video with never before seen footage of the riot, that was so striking, really grabbed people's attention last night. that reiterated just how horrible that day was and how close it was to becoming that much worse. law enforcement officials told me in the aftermath that they were afraid a lawmaker might have even been executed on livestream if they had gotten -- if the mob had gotten their hands on them. and it's important for the committee to have a narrative like this, to show this testimony, and per nielsen just a few moments ago, about 20 million americans were watching last night. >> i hadn't seen that. rick stengel, your thoughts on the country being reminded of the brutal combat that these law enforcement officials had to engage in to protect the capitol. >> well, yes, nicole, you used the word "combat." they're not trained for combat.

they're police officers. we've been in the senate and the house a million times. they're trained to tell people not to bring popcorn into the well of the senate. they needed to be trained that day for military combat. and you know, one of the things that she spoke to was the fact that the leadership of the capitol police was not prepared. her line, when she said it's the understatement of the century, that we're going to need more people, that was very, very poor planning. and so i think we have -- there are outcomes that we need to figure out from there, because it's not -- it could happen again. these people need to be trained for different kinds of scenarios, and she was an example of someone who was a victim of poor training and poor planning. >> jonathan lemire, rick stengel, thank you so much for spending time with us today. up next, paying attention to the threats that led us to january 6th and how those threats continue not just to exist but to grow today right after a quick break. exist but to grow today right after a quick break.

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♪♪ within democracies, populist appeals grounded in fear and bigotry and resentment have elevated leaders who, once they're in office, have sought to systematically undermine democratic institutions. and entrench themselves in power. in my own country, the forces that unleashed mob violence on our capitol are still churning out misinformation and conspiracy theories. for those of us who fervently believe in the ideals of democracy, the question is, how do we respond? >> hi again, everyone it's 5:00 in new york. how do we respond? the answer to president barack obama's question will very well determine not only the fate of

our union but the fate of democracies all around the world. the attempted coup on january 6th, about which we already know so much more after last night, was just a single chapter in a much larger global assault on democracy and the rule of law. in many ways, that will be the january 6th select committee's most important job over these next few weeks, convincing millions of people that the insurrection wasn't some one-off event. not only do the threats we face that day still exist, but they are gathering strength by the hour. committee chairman bennie thompson, last night, on the stakes of this moment. >> january 6th and the lies that led to insurrection have put two and a half centuries of constitutional democracy at risk. the world is watching what we do here. america has long been expected to be a shining city on the hill, a beacon of hope and

freedom, a model for others when we are at our best. how can we play that role when our house is in such disorder? we must confront the truth with candor, resolve, and determination. we need to show that we are worthy of the gifts that are the birthright of every american. >> it's not over. what happens if and when donald trump tries to win again? just listen to the way "the new york times'" peter baker describes what we saw last night in chilling fashion. "in the entire 246-year history of the u.s., there was surely never a more damning indictment presented against an american president than outlined on thursday night in a cavernous congressional hearing room where the future of democracy felt on the line. other presidents have been accused of wrong doing, even high crimes and misdemeanors, but the case against donald trump, mounted by the bipartisan

committee, describes not just a rogue president but a would-be autocrat, willing to shred the constitution to hang on to power at all costs. a would-be autocrat in the united states of america. here in our lifetimes. we repeat president obama's vital question. how do we respond? it's where we begin the hour with some of our most favorite reporters and friends, harry litman is here, the host of the talking feds podcast. also here, eddie glaude, chair of the department of african american studies at princeton university, also an msnbc political analyst and with us at the table, tim o'brien, senior columnist for bloomberg opinion. eddie, i thought this speech from president obama was -- i hate to use this with president obama's speeches because they're all important and deliberate, but it had a sort of arm touching to his convention speech where i had never seen him so shaken about what was on the line in the general election in 2020 and this speech, a hand ahead to the future, what we do

next determines everything, determines -- you and i talk a lot about the state of our democracy. it feels like it's ailing in a lot of ways. but what we do right now will determine if we even continue to live in one. that's president obama's point. >> i think he's absolutely right. and i think he underlined the crisis we face, and you know, what's interesting, nicole, is that we oftentimes look at the threats, the dangers to liberal democracy, and i think what's really important for us to try to wrap our minds around are what are the problems within liberal democracies that lead people to reach for authoritarian and neofascist languages? so we can identify these illiberal forces, these authoritarian forces, but what is it about the way in which we've organized our society, the wealth gap, inequality, the fact that working people can't seem to keep their noses above water, the contradictions within liberal democracies that lead

people to reach for these old languages in order to get some sense of order and some sense of stability. so, to answer president obama's question requires not only looking outward but it requires a deep introspective look at what the contradictions that define our current way of being, our current way of living. >> and both president obama's speech, i'm going to play some more of it, and congresswoman liz cheney last night in the hearing, they minced no words, tim, about whose fault this is. here's liz cheney laying the blame we feet of her own party. >> there's a reason why people serving in our government take an oath to the constitution. as our founding fathers recognize, democracy is fragile. people in positions of public trust are duty bound to defend it. to step forward when action is required. in our country, we don't swear an oath to an individual or a political party. we take our oath to defend the united states constitution, and

that oath must mean something. >> liz cheney would go on in those comments to describe republicans as a lasting stain, their dishonor as a lasting stain on our democracy. i think in this climate of sort of hardened partisans, it's always notable when a republican takes on her own party in such stark, ambitious terms. >> and courageous terms. you know, the standard sort of trumpista response to the january 6th hearings are, well, this was just a one-off. the crowd got wild. we now know from ample evidence and months and months of reporting that it wasn't a one-off. it was an outcome of a months-long effort to overthrow the government. the other argument was that even if you accept that, that it was an attempted coup, well, it was stopped. and we moved on. well, we haven't moved on. you know, i covered the 1993 trade center bombing as a reporter. and there's a famous anecdote that a couple years after that, the fbi was flying ramsey

youssef into new york on a helicopter and they showed him the world trade center was still standing, and he said, if we had enough money, it wouldn't be. and lo and behold, about six years after that, the world trade center came down. i think we should see what happened here in january of 2020 -- 2021 as a warm-up act for what could happen in the future. and if we assume that our institutions were strong enough to get past this moment and the things that fed into trump's ability to try to pervert a number of federal agencies, the cia, the justice department, the defense department, to put boots on the ground, to at least influence them at a minimum, to influence domestic terrorists, the proud boys and the oath keepers, to march into washington, and then to pressure members of his own cabinet to overturn the government, that's not going away. we could end up in 2024 with

trump in the white house again, and the republicans who enabled him running congress. and we're going to deal with these same issues then and it's going to take a lot of courage from the liz cheneys of the world to put a blockade in front of that. >> i mean, it's a chilling analogy, it's a chilling parallel that you draw. i guess one important difference is that we weren't particularly divided in terms of trying -- we failed, but we weren't particularly divided in terms of how we protect ourselves from that threat. you got one party refusing to even air -- >> to say there was a threat. >> correct. calling it -- and it's not just downplaying it. it's absolutely -- >> saying it doesn't exist. >> calling it a tourist event. >> and it doesn't exist and they have a, i think, a propaganda arm in fox news. i don't think we should call it fox news. >> fox channel. >> fox prop. whatever you want to call it. but they -- >> that's good. >> but their goal is to simply say the opposition is lying to you, the opposition isn't mature enough to wield power.

only republicans that are -- line up with what tucker carlson's philosophy of the universe is should have power. because their ultimate goal is power in and of itself. they're not policy oriented. they are not traditional conservatives by any stretch of the imagination. they're thugs. and they want to own the minds of their supporters, and so they're happy not to tell them the truth. they do it, i think, without guilt and without any kind of consciousness. this idea that cnn and msnbc are left-leaning and fox is right-leaning and that balances out. msnbc and cnn do not do what fox does. fox sits on the air and it fabricates, and it invents things in order to achieve an agenda. that's different from trying to analyze and report facts. >> i want to show you more of what president obama suggested we do in this moment, harry litman. he's more from his speech. >> if we want democracy to flourish, we will have to fight for it.

we will have to nurture it. we will have to demonstrate its value again and again in improving the lives of ordinary people. and we will also have to be willing to look squarely at the shortcomings of our own democracies. not the ideal, but the reality of our own democracies. only then will we be able to develop a better story of what democracy can be and must be. in this rapidly changing world. >> so, harry litman, i listened to that and i thought that what one of the signs of the sickness of our democracy is the weakness of the rule of law. and a lot of that, all of that, was done on donald trump's watch. he spent five years calling for the prosecution of his former political opponent, hillary clinton, then of jim comey,

andrew mccabe was accused of treason, he attacked pete strzok and he used the bully pulpit of the american presidency, the commander in chief of the largest military in the world, to assault the rule of law day after day after day after day. and i wonder what you think the rule of law means in this country now and what it means that we have a justice department that has shown no sign that it is even commenced an investigation into donald trump's efforts as proven last night by liz cheney, to overthrow the government he led. how should we feel about the rule of law now under merrick garland? >> what a big question. let me just say, first, i think he is dead on in locating the responsibility with us. i have had a lot of conversations since last night about, well, will they persuade people? what will this mean for the midterms? will it change the doj's mind? first and foremost, they did an excellent job last night, but it is to us now, you know, it's a

republic, if we can keep it. and i think that element has been lost in the overall sort of political balancing of what they're about. what this has to ultimately be about in history and now is the ability of the american people to preserve their institutions. and one more point along these lines that i just thought of when you were seeing liz cheney, you know, this -- what's always been a kind of bromide, oh, the founders told us about the fragility of our democracy, et cetera. it is so hit home, you can read the federalist papers and they really drew this exact kind of danger. we have had a 200-plus really lucky prosperous run that really is now under a kind of danger it's never been, except maybe the civil war. to your point, yes. look, a country, look to russia or look to turkey, a country with no reliable rule of law,

where there's different rules for the rich or the powerful, is -- can't be said to be a democracy. it's one of the shining and necessary institutions, and he put pressure on that as much as anywhere else. by and large, i've got to say, the legal institutions held the line better than some others did during the trump era. but going forward, it's all now, you know, so completely imperilled. >> and i think it's an -- it's a mixed picture, to be honest. harry litman, the supreme court did rule, with the exception of one justice, to turn over the documents and you saw how this committee has pored over all the evidence that has been availed to it. they have made good, responsible use of it. every court throughout donald trump's spurious claims of election fraud and it's a federal judge in judge david carter who has already asserted, based on the evidence he's seen in the narrow cases involving john eastman, that felony crimes

committed by donald trump and john eastman likely have happened already. but so, i don't want to paint in a broad brush. i think that's what the other side does. but the picture is complicated by the fact that there is -- i mean, jeremy bash articulated it in the last hour. he's not seen enough yet to say that investigation into donald trump is warranted and i guess my question for you is, do you think the rule of law snaps back after being demolished and annihilated for four years by restraint? or do you think that someone should make the point that no one is above the law, and whose job is that? >> all right, so, it is the department of justice's. it is snapping back. and they do have the goods already on at least one charge against trump. i came to this view slowly, as i think they hopefully will, which is that the only thing worse than not prosecuting -- than prosecutes him would be not prosecuting him. yes, it is to merrick garland to make that point, but many things

will factor into it. it would be the biggest step for it want of justice ever to have taken. i don't mean to minimize it. but i just don't want to think of it in isolation to the judgment of the american people overall that this can't stand and has to be curtailed. but yes, if there's no accountability and the rule of law, then we are in sorry shape. >> and i guess, eddie glaud, i push on this because i think the american people did what they were asked to do. president obama gave that speech. president biden gave the speeches. they made the case to the country during the general election campaign of 2020 and the country chose democrats to run both chambers of congress and to run the white house. and i think we have had a lot of conversations about the fact that they are the only party at this point that stands squarely on the side of preserving, protecting, continuing to keep america a democracy.

and yet there is hesitancy. when the other side the lurching toward autocracy, liz cheney described them as dishonored until the end of time, has no hesitation, how do you evaluate that asymmetry? >> you know, nicole, i've been trying to wrap my mind around it, and i trace it back historically, just really quickly, to the civil war, and the reason why i reach for the civil war is because it was brother against brother. it's family. and there was this sense that, you know, the kind of split, torturous split, the carnage that was left on the battlefield as a result, you know, in some ways traumatized the nation. i mean, deeply, profoundly. and so andrew johnson, right, was impeached because he did not want to hold the traitors accountable. or think about gerald ford not wanting to hold richard nixon accountable. and the reason given in both instances was that it would further tear the country apart. and so there is this fear that if we hold donald trump

accountable, that those who are, in fact, followers of trump or committed to that ideology, that somehow they will split from the nation or they will rebel. so i think at the heart of this hesitancy is a deep-seated fear that cuts to the heart of the country's -- the split in the country, nicole, and i think that's what we have to kind of wrap our minds around, and we have to wrap our minds around as well, what does it mean not to hold these people accountable? because what we know is that what followed from the civil war and what followed from richard nixon has had the country by the throat ever since. >> well, yeah, i mean, eddie, i would follow up and say, doesn't the insurrection and the video that we all watched again as a nation with very few exceptions last night prove that that's already happened? not holding him accountable, emboldening him at every step has cleaved the country apart. we're so divided in our realities. it's already happened. >> absolutely. the cold civil war turned hot on january 6th and so now as we've

said over and over on your show, and we've said in our conversations, a choice has to be made, and people have to stop tiptoeing, it seems to me. we have to salvage the republic. we have to save the republic. and that's going to require hard choices, hard decisions, and it begins with holding donald trump and his minions accountable. >> and truthful conversations like this one. everyone sticks around for more. when we come back, the january 6th committee will be turning its attention to fox news, one of the biggest purveyors of the disgraced ex-president's big lie and other stuff. it comes after fox news went -- we're not going to call it news. what'd you call it? fox prop. fox prop went to great lengths last night to avoid exposing its viewers to the truth, the horrors of the coup plot. and then later in the show, we'll shift gears to the topic of gun safety. march for our lives rally is happening right now at the u.s. capitol ahead of a big weekend of protests as senate negotiators continue to attest to the fact that a deal on safety measures is actually been reach this time. and the new challenge facing

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tonight, i say this to my republican colleagues who are defending the indefensible. there will come a day when donald trump is gone. but your dishonor will remain. finally, i ask all of our fellow americans, as you watch our hearings over the coming weeks, please remember what's at stake. >> your dishonor will remain.

that was january 6th select committee vice chair, liz cheney, leading by her own example, speaking directly to members of her own party about the importance of truth and then speaking to all americans about the importance of their investigation, which we learned this morning will include live testimony on monday from a gentleman named chris stirewalt. he's the former fox news political editor. he angered donald trump's team for being the first network in this country to call the state of arizona for joe biden in the 2020 presidential election. all but confirming trump's defeat. stirewalt told news nation, where he now works as the political editor there, that he was, quote, asked to testify and is, quote, not in a position to discuss about what. he's been sharply critical of fox's coverage of the election and the big lie. that coverage culminated last night in what "the new york times" describes as a revisionist history lesson of january 6th. fox commentators spoke over live images of the hearing, which one

tucker carlson called propaganda. fox cut away from key images. on the left of your screen is part of that never before seen video the committee presented last night. it aired across every other network in this country. violent rioters smashing windows and breaching the capitol. on the right side, that same moment on fox news network cuts away and they show shots of a live audience watching the video of the violent trump supporters attacking the capitol and our democracy. joining our coverage is nick confessore, "new york times" political and investigative reporter, as well as an msnbc political analyst. so, nick, you have done the definitive piece of data-driven reporting about tucker carlson. you know, jonathan lemire said in the last hour that the ratings have come in, and people that watched the hearings far outnumbered people who watched fox news. why do you think they made this bed? if they had aired the hearings, even if they had interjected at different points to, i don't know, respond or push back, and we do that to governor abbott

when he lies on tv, why dupg do you think they made the decision -- why does it threaten them so much to show their viewers the truth, the footage of january 6th? >> fox didn't have a choice, nicole, and for two reasons. the first reason is that fox is part of this story. in the wake of the election, fox promoted claims of election fraud that were not true. the primetime hosts on fox just relentlessly pushed claims the election was biased or rigged. for the second reason is, for over a year and a half, primetime hosts, especially tucker carlson, have been telling viewers the protesters who attacked the capitol that day were victims, were innocent americans who were angry over claims of election fraud, that were real, that they were the victims, not the aggressors. to even show the video we saw last night, forget the commentary, forget the opening remarks from cheney or thompson or anyone else. if they just showed the video of those people assaulting officers

of the law, breaking windows, it would just put to a lie the story that fox, you know, their kind of audience has been hearing for a year and a half. they couldn't show it. >> let me show you what nick is talking about, how fox became part of the story last night. actually, i think we have this. let me play this. this is liz cheney describing a text exchange between kayleigh mcenany, who was the white house press secretary, and sean hannity. >> but most emblematic of those days is this exchange of texts between sean hannity and former president trump's press secretary, kayleigh mcenany. sean hannity wrote, in part, "key now, no more crazy people. no more stolen election talk. yes, impeachment and 25th amendment are real. many people will quit." ms. mcenany responded in

part, "love that. that's the playbook." the white house staff knew that president trump was willing to entertain and use conspiracy theories to achieve his ends. they knew the president needed to be cut off from all of those who had encouraged him. they knew that president donald trump was too dangerous to be left alone. at least until he left office on january 20th. >> and what that testimony makes clear is that what we know already from this committee's work is where there's smoke, there's fire. where those texts exist, there exists usually a trove that proved the point over and over and over again. but these ones prove that after 1/6, even sean hannity thought impeachment and the 25th amendment were real and happening and understood that many people would quit, nick. >> that's right. and look, he understood the risk to the president at the time. he was trying to land the plane, quote, unquote, as so many

people in the white house there were trying to land the plane, which essentially meant to try to get the president to the end of his term without some kind of extraconstitutional action. but on tv, he and other hosts on fox have played a very different role. and what they have done is try to invert their narrative of january 6th and tell their audience that the people who attacked the capitol were the good guys and the victims, and the people who want to investigate them are unfair and mean and part of a deep state plot to victimize conservatives. that has been the narrative on the channel for the last 18 months, and to show those videos, to show the police officers, body cams of them being assaulted, of breaking windows, of an officer testifying about the blood on the floor of the steps of the capitol, to show that to their viewers would undermine the entire story they have chosen to tell for the last 18 months. >> what was interesting to me,

harry litman, is that liz made the argument against republicans and trump using republicans close to trump. and chris stirewalt is someone at fox news who was a little bit behind the scenes, but he appeared on the air. this is something he wrote in the "l.a. times." he writes this at the end of january 2021. "the rebellion on the populist right against the results of the 2020 election was partly a cynical, knowing effort by political operators and their hype men in the media to steal an election or at least get rich trying. but it was also the tragic consequence of the informational malnourishment so badly afflicting the nation. when i defended the call for biden in the arizona election, i became a target of murderous rage." murderous rage. "from consumers who were furious at not having their views confirmed." no one should face that kind of

rage and threat. it's really scary. and fox news created that market by feeding it and mall nourishing it in terms of news and information. >> yeah, you know, something prosecutors think about a lot when they're putting witnesses on is called sponsorship theory, which means that people really react to information depending on who's saying it. so, having things come out of his mouth is apt to be more prejudicial toward fox, just like having bill barr and ivanka trump. i do have to say, though, nicole, and let me just say personally, i specifically am not a contributor at any network so i can do all of them. i used to do fox news, and i thought maybe a couple people might listen. after nick's article, i've just stopped doing it, because it just feels to me it's not a news network, and i don't want to treat it that way. even so, i'm a little surprised they're taking this -- this is a very ambitious committee with everything they're taking on, all the witnesses they have,

mike luttig and the white house people, the doj, are they really also going to be lumping in fox news? it's a virtuous cause, but man, oh man, they are really -- it's a whole other battle. but there's just no doubt that that's part of the larger story. >> huge part of it. and again, like the threat, one that isn't in the rear view mirror but still present today and in the future. you know, i had this thought, tim, that what i thought this signalled was the weakness internally of people like dana porino and brett bayer, i guess chris wallace is at cnn now, and the strength and the almost, you know, abandonment of anything resembling a news network because i think martha mccallum sometimes anchors news events. i thought inside fox it was an interesting moment where there might have in the past been a battle between places like chris

wallace and brett bayer and the forces like tucker carlson and laura ingraham and sean hannity. >> you're leaving the most important actor out, lochland murdoch. the family controls the company. if they wanted that network to do something other than engage in propaganda, and to delude people and to serve, he could put anybody he wants in that anchor seat. tucker carlson exists because lockland murdoch wants him to exist. the murdochs have to be held accountable as owners in terms of what they're putting on the air every night. >> eddie, i also came to the conclusion as this night wore on that we don't need 100% of americans to do anything, and so i'm not -- i think, you know, adam kinzinger, a member of the select committee, sort of fixated on fox and gave them a hard time for not carrying it. i don't think that's the point. i think it's about reassembling the coalition, the voting coalition in 2018, the voting coalition in 2020 and reminding

them what president obama reminded them today that nothing less than the state of our democracy is on the line. >> right. there are -- there's a segment of the american population that's concerned about government taking away their guns, government taking away their liberty, but there's also a segment of the population who's concerned about folks trying to take away our democracy. and i think this committee has to make not just simply truth claims. it has to appeal at the visceral level, at the level of the passions around our commitment to democracy. but i should say this to connect it to our first segment, nicole. remember, there are four elements to democracy functioning. they are, of course, the legislative branch, and we've experienced gerrymandered house, a dysfunctional senate. there's the executive branch. we've experienced the distortions of an imperial presidency. we've experienced the politicized judiciary. but there's also the fourth estate. the fourth estate. the role of the press in creating the deliberative space so citizens can engage in the back and forth exchange. so we've seen the kind of corruption of the other -- the three other various portions or

institutions of democracy. with fox news, it's not about the fragmentation of media. it's not about social platforms or social media. with fox prop, as it were, we're seeing the corruption of an aspect of the fourth estate that contributes to the crises of american democracy. that we began with, with president obama's remarks, and we need to understand it as such. >> i love that tim o'brien has renamed fox news, fox prop. prop for propaganda, right? >> i'm going to copyright that. >> you should before i forget and steal it. nick confessore, harry litman, eddie glaude, thank you so much for being part of this conversation today. tim sticks around a little longer. shifting gears for us, as gun safety advocates rally outside the u.s. capitol for common sense gun reforms, the latest on where that bipartisan group of senators stands on doing something, anything after a horrific spate of deadly and tragic mass shootings in our country. please stay with us. ass shootinr country. please stay with us.

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i have said, and i'll say it again, well, i'm interested in compromise, i'm not interested in just checking a box. i'm not interested in doing something unless that something is going to save lives. unless that something is going to be impactful and meaningful. my hope is that we'll be able to deliver good news to you, transformative news to you, soon, because this country needs it. this country needs to know that washington is listening to them

and that if 80% and 90% of the american public agree on something, that democracy will deliver. >> keep coming back to democracy, right? that was senator chris murphy at a rally organized by march for our lives and other gun safety groups, saying that there is still some hope for new bipartisan gun laws in the u.s. senate. this rally really just a prelude to the weekend as washington and the world gear up for a new and major protest tomorrow. march for our lives, the organization founded by students after the parkland shooting in 2019, will host a major rally outside the washington monument tomorrow afternoon. with that organization saying that more than 450 marches will take place in at least 45 states and all around the world. as senator murphy said there, congress still continues to try to find a way to pass any type of new gun laws in the wake of the uvalde and buffalo massacres. in a recent real spike of mass shootings in this country.

just yesterday, the house voted along party lines to pass red flag laws, a measure that would allow guns to be confiscated from people deemed by a court to be too dangerous to have them. like the ban of semiautomatic weapons for people under the age of 21 that passed the house of representatives wednesday, the bill faces near certain failure in the u.s. senate in its current form. joining our conversation is shannon watts, the founder of the group, moms demand action for gun sense in america. tim is still here as well. shannon, what are your thoughts as we go into a week of activism, which, you know, usually, they have two audiences, right, to rally the public to a cause. public's already there. this is really just directed at the men and women who work in that building, right? >> that's right. the cathartic moment we're all waiting for in the senate. and you know, we have seen thousands of students walk out of their schools. we have had events in every single state. we have had rallies, even twice in the last week outside the

capitol. we have sent 800,000 messages to our senators, and our chapters at moms demand action and students demand action are exploding with new membership. and i just want to also make the point, though, we do need senate to act. i do believe that they will. i'm very hopeful. but this work doesn't stop. we are still working in every single state to save lives through gun safety legislation. just in the last week, we passed sweeping gun reform legislation in new york. we passed new gun safety policies in five cities in the state of colorado. we passed a secure storage policy in walnut creek, california. and we're testifying in support of new gun safety legislation in rhode island and delaware. so, all of us need to get off the sidelines and get involved in this work where we live. it is life-saving work, and i am so hopeful for a vote in the senate, but this work continues and certainly into november. >> shannon, i want to ask you the impact of this. ceos of more than 220 u.s. companies on thursday will release a letter calling on the

senate to take immediate action to reduce gun violence. companies employ workers in all 50 states. they include levi's, dick's sporting goods, lululemon, lyft, bloomberg, permanente medical group and unilever. is that so lawmakers hear from some of their donors or employers back in their districts or home states? >> look, i think we need the broadest coalition possible, and that needs to include law enforcement and first responders and educators and, yes, business leaders. i mean, that is a lever we've been pulling through moms demand action since we started ten years ago. getting companies either to change their policies or to join our coalition and support gun safety legislation. and they do make a difference. they are considered leaders. and again, this is just one more part of the coalition to send the message that gun safety legislation isn't just good policy. it's good politics. and we need lawmakers to feel

that if they don't act, there will be consequences. and business leaders need to hold these lawmakers accountable as well. >> it is one of the most inverted issues in terms of public opinion. shannon has said, and shannon has almost single-handedly changed the language that i use and a lot of people use. it is a fight for gun safety legislation, it's not gun control. it's really about the stuff that everyone agrees on. and yet, republicans swim against the tide of public opinion and are successful, at least until now in thwarting federal legislation. >> because of the way the senate is structured. it gives disproportionate power to states with smaller populations and enables the congress to stand in the way of legislation that promotes what americans want and i don't think that's going to change any time soon. i think one of the things that shannon just pointed to was her success, her group's success and others like her at changing state law to hold gun companies

accountable. there are federal laws, placa, which makes the gun industry essentially liability-free. consumers can't sue big gun manufacturers like they can an auto company or a pharmaceutical company for a product defect. and that's been a pretty impregnable wall for a long time. the sandy hook families sued remington, fought that out for a number of years, using connecticut law, state law in connecticut. >> and prevailed. >> and prevailed and won a settlement of more than $70 million. in right now in texas, the families there are thinking of filing a similar suit against daniel defense, the gun company that manufactured the gun the shooter there used. i think victims really have to start going after companies that manufacture and distribute guns and sell them and hold them accountable in the courts, because i think it's not going to happen enough yet in the congress. >> right, it's quite a moment. we'll continue to watch it together. shannon watts and tim o'brien,

thank you so much for spending time with us. the biden white house is facing a new challenge in the fight against the coronavirus. white house pandemic response coordinator dr. ashish shah will be our guest after a quick break. . ashish shah will be our guest after a quick break. while wayfair is installing your new refrigerator and hauling away your old one. you're binging the latest true crime drama. while the new double oven you financed is taking care of dinner and desert. you're remembering how to tie a windsor. and while your washer is getting out those grass stains.

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available for kids under the age of 5, finally, pending approval from the fda. ten million doses are ready and waiting for providers once authorization comes through. but the pandemic no longer at the forefront of everyone's mind, unless of course you have it, some parents remain hesitant about getting those shots. "new york times" reports this. about getting those shots. "new york times" reports this. about getting the shots. "the new york times" says this, the uptick of the vaccine in other age groups offers a discouraging suggestion. just over a third of the children ages 5 to 11 have received the vehicle, a number that could forecast lower interest with parentses with young children joining us is dr. ashish jha you awaited the shots of the older group 5 to 12. i was first in line and took my son over at city field to get a mass vaccination shot center i wonder what you do about hesitancy or is the point to make it available for everyone

who wants it nicole, thanks for having me you begin by making it assessable to everyone and you make itin really, really easy. that is the first step, and it is not the last step, but the first step. second, you remember that this is a long game, when adults became eligible to be vaccinated in 2012 and 2021, we're up to 80% now so you know it's time. third, there is a special challenge with children which is all of the covid misinformation that has gone on, sort of downplaying the risk of covid in kids, upplaying any risks of vaccines. you've got to counter that and our strategy is very clear which is we will work with trusted voices, pediatricians, family physicians and faith leaders and help arm people with data and information and we believe that in over a longer period of time we'll get a larger chunk of kids

vaccinated across america. wouldic you remind us and me wh we're supposed to get boosted. >> i know it can be confusing for a lot of folks, but if it's been at least five months since you got that second shot you need to go out and get that third shot. the third shot is absolutely critical for everybody and the good news is everybody over 5 is now eligible. my 10-year-old just got boosted this past week. it isth absolutely essential. for people over 50, if it's been a50 while, if it's been five months since you got your third you are eligible for the fourth and i've been encouraging of it. itur clearly helps and it keepsp the antibody level and helps prevent against further infections. >> the fact that people are covid has been accepted in a new kind of way, and i'm o sure in your life and mine, iur know people rid now w have covid and it's not, perhaps, as terrifying and it's still scary and you still read so many troubling things about

covid, and i wonder how you navigate theho anxiety of a natn which is now, whether youwant to or not being forced to live with covid. >> the first thing we are focused on is making sure that those infections don't turn into icu stays and they don't end up killing people and that requires two things, right? first, making sure people are up-to-date on the vaccines and weda think that's the single mo important thing you can do to prevent that and the second is working hard tot make treatmen available and we think that makes an important difference. those two things definitely lower thein anxiety level becau those two things keep you out of the hospital. it's still an issue and 100,000 cases a day is a lot of infections and we want to do what a we can to help keep thos infections down t and the numbe one goal is we can't let those infections turn into serious illness. >> today the u.s. changed the requirement for international

travelers. can your talk to me about that news? doha you see a world where ther aren't tools and mandates and what does the future hold in terms of how we manage covid? >> the cdc has been looking at this testing mandate for a while. they made the determination that at this point given the fact that we do have widespread availability of vaccines and therapeutics, that they're turning into serious illnesses as strong as they've ever been and that they don't think the mandate is protecting americans a year and a half ago when it was first put into place. in terms of restrictions as we develop more tools and as we are able tore acquire more tools, tt will make it easier to get our lives back and to get back to things without those restrictions. obviously, over time we'll have to o monitor this closely if we see new variants we may have to put the policies back in, but at

this moment i see that as long as we have access to vaccines, treatments we can manage our lives much more effectively. when you convene with the different agencies that have a role in this, are you now squarely focused on moving forward. on making sure we don't regress. is there a hope that we'll improve the vaccines? is the government still paying into research into long covid? tell me what the science piece of the government's response and prevention for future variants looks like. >> yeah. great question. there's a huge science piece to what we do every single day. we are thinking a lot about what the next vaccination looks like. we're thinking down the road and how do we prevent transmission and infections. there is a ton of work ng on long covid and it's real and debilitating for people who end up getting it and we've got work at nih and the government tasked

us for work with long covid. we are looking at this whole set of issues and asking fundamental questions about howki do we sta ahead of the virus and how do we do the work to continue to protectti americans and this battle is notot over and we hav to continue to use science. >> we still get questions. we tried to get some of them in. it's great that you're there. we t always appreciate turning you before you were in government and now that you're at the table, and literally it's your table we are grateful to get toar talk to you. thank you very much, dr. ashish jha.is >>h thank you, nicole. >> a quick break for us. we will be right back. us. we will be right back. inhibitor or fulvestrant...kee in hr+, her2- metastatic breast cancer. kisqali is a pill that's proven to delay disease progression. kisqali can cause lung problems, or an abnormal heartbeat, which can lead to death. it can cause serious skin reactions, liver problems, and low white blood cell counts

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before we go, a quick reminder for all of you. on monday, stay for the second 6th committee hearing. join our network's special coverage on "morning joe," followed by the hearing in its entirety and watch the january 6th hearings the house investigates monday beginning at 6:00 a.m. eastern on msnbc. we will all be back that evening. thank you for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. ari melber starts rights now. happy friday. >> happy friday and get red for work monday. good to see you, nicole. >> tonight on "the beat," we'll be joined by one of the two witnesses at last night's january 6th committee, he's here tonight on the beat live, nick quested so stay with us for that. veteran watergate investigator lofgren is here as well. it's a special show and we'll bring them in tonight. but before that a few key facts that we did learn in the heari