coming up on this hour of ayman, march for their lives, tens of thousands of americans across the country are demanding action on gun control. plus, republicans in disarray, how the michigan gop is falling apart at a critical moment. and new details on the extent of ginni thomas's election interference, which he requested from dozens of state legislators. i am ayman mohyeldin, let's get started.

we begin this hour with these incredible images from all around our country. today, thousands of protesters took to streets at more than 450 rallies, from washington, the sea to parkland, florida, austin, texas, new york city, all to push congress to take action on gun violence. one party, and only one party has heard the calls for those actions. this week, the house oversight committee held a hearing on gun violence, where members heard from survivors of recent mass shutting's, including maya cerrillo, a fourth grader at robb elementary in uvalde, texas. >> he shot my friend, and i thought that he would come back to the room, so i covered myself in blood and put it on me. >> maya, who is just 11 years

old, speared her classmates blood on her face to protect herself from a gunmen. also this week, the house passed a series of petrol bills that would raise the age to buy most semi automatic rifles to 21. it would ban high capacity ammunition magazines and create a federal red flag law. more than 200 lawmakers, almost entirely republicans, voted no on these measures. the good and bad news, the votes no matter all that much because those bills will never pass the senate. don't get too discouraged, a bipartisan group of senators say that they are making a genuine push own legislation focused on a narrower set of gun control measures, perhaps even progress. even republican senator, lindsey graham, said that negotiators want a deal in the next few days, believe it or not. the question is this, is this time really different? we have been fooled so many times before. but this time, even the most ardent politicians seem to believe that change is coming. we will see.

let's bring in my saturday night panel, eddie glaude jr., is the chairman of african studies at princeton university, norman ornstein is a scholar at the -- and tara setmayer is a senior adviser to the lincoln project and a former gop communications director. it is good to have all three of you with us. eddie, i'd like to start with you. will these protests move the needle on gun legislation? give me the realistic sense, not your optimistic one? >> i am not sure, given the history of congress, given -- not bipartisan, but bipartisan nature, it would be reasonable for us to conclude that nothing will happen on this. i think it is really important for this purpose to take place today because against a backdrop of what we are witnessing with the jet six committee, commissioner hearing, we have to be mindful of what happened in buffalo, will happen in uvalde, we have been

across the country daily. this keeps in the front mind, the fact that we are experiencing this crisis with regard to gun violence across the country, whether it will translate, amen, into serious legislation, i doubt it. at least, we are making the push, citizens, for that to happen. >> norm, what do you make of these bows that i referenced that passed the house? are they simply political messaging bills? they are not likely to go anywhere in the senate until the bipartisan committee comes up with its own framework for what they might agree on. >> it is more than just posturing, him in. it is setting a template for what we ought to be doing. it puts some pressure on those people in the senate, who are part of these negotiations. frankly, the most significant things that we could do to actually control guns or control bullets are not on the table, and it appears that even one of the things that should be a slam dunk, raising the age

of eligibility for these military style assault weapons to 21, is not going to make it because mitch mcconnell, who we are looking at right now, as designated john cornyn of texas as is -- he said that will not happen. i think that we will get something because the intensity of public opinion has shifted to the pro gun control or gun legislation change advocates, something that is very different from what we have seen before. it will be modest. i will make one other point, which is, even as we've seen some modest progress in washington, we are seeing backsliding in states all across the country. we are getting teachers armed. we are getting the equivalent of a militias moving into guard schools. we are getting ridiculous things happening that are going to move us not in a positive direction here. we are a long ways from actually making dramatic

progress on this terrible situation. >> sorry, you see the crowds turning up on the streets in these various cities. this is arguably a nationwide protests movement against where things have stalled with gun control and gun reform in this country. will the bills and issue be a factor come november for democrats? do you believe that democrats should be out there on the campaign trail talking about gun control and gun reform, seeing these cars out there? >> i think it depends because for democrats in specific districts, where gun rights are important in certain swing districts, perhaps, or rural democrats, that may not be a great issue for them. it has been a white hot issue for year. the difference this time around is that the nra does not have the same political power that they used to have. they have been in disarray. they are basically bankrupted.

they have scandals concerning russia russian infiltration and all other kinds of misappropriation of funds. it has been a disaster for the nra. without that lobby, i think you are starting to see a little bit more openness to getting something done because you don't have what used to be a juggernaut. i think that the democrats need to be careful with this. it is true that after tragedies like this, people are emotional, they are focused, this is top of mind. it is absolutely horrific. the hearings this week were incredibly emotional, pointing it, powerful, and if a 11 year old that had to smear her classmates blood on her teen order to survive a mass shooting does not move people, i don't know what will. a lot of these republicans are entrenched because they feel as though that this is some kind of attack on the second amendment because that is with their constituents want to hear. they want to hear that their gun rights will be prevented, no one will take their guns from them, and they are entrenched, instead of common sense, pragmatic solutions that

are being offered this time around that could make a difference. red flag laws work. after parkland in florida, they erased the age to 21. governor rick scott at the time signed that into law. a senator, he is opposed to that on a federal level, because politics are at play. it makes no sense that why he would support it as governor but not a senator, other than pure politics. there needs to be a comprehensive, holistic approach to this, where you don't want to make the perfect enemy to good, because there are so many multifaceted levels to gun control, wherever that means. it means different things to different people. but this time around, the differences that we have seen pragmatic solutions that everyone can agree with being brought to the table. last time around, i did not see john cornyn and other senators like that coming to the table. chris murphy, senator murphy, from connecticut, who is from sandy hook and saw meaningful gun legislation passed and connecticut, his home state, he

feels confident that this time is different. i tend to side with him given that he is in the room and is doing with this, and has been through this for several years. i am confident that we will see something get done, but like i said, we cannot let the perfect be the enemy of the good. we need to at least acknowledge that there is some bipartisanship this time to get it done. raising the age to 21 for ar-15 rifles is a no-brainer and should be. it has been done before. we are seeing a lot of pushback on that from republicans for the for reasons. >> i have to say, you are way more optimistic than i am. i apologize, maybe i am a little bit cynical. i do not see some of the republican senators and he's negotiations as good faith negotiators. i have seen them talk about police reform and justice in the accountability act. they participated, took part in the discussions, and they come out and say that we could not reach an agreement. if you ask me anything, politics will trump, they are butting time to kick this can down the road. we will see what happens in

november. if i can take the optimism from terror there for a moment and present it to you and say, what about changing the culture in this country? if we cannot agree on the laws, if we cannot agree on raising the minimum age to buy a gun, if we can't agree on a red flag laws, is it even impossible to begin to change the culture around guns in this country, so that everyone does not feel that they need a gun and assault rifle? >> it is a really important question, ayman, because in some ways, the republican frenzy around the second amendment is actually rooted in the mid 20th century social revolution. there is a sense that we need our guns to protect us from big government that is infringing upon our lives, that is pushing this agenda around black folk, queer folk, women -- gun culture is actually bound up with the social revolutions of the 60s that we are

relitigating right now. the kind of cultural shift that you're talking about is really complex, not only are we talking about the questions around the mid 20th century, we are talking about deep seated -- there is the empathetic moment, there is a ar-15 that literally decapitated children. the fact that we have to have in 11-year-old testify after experienced that kind of horror and trauma is absolutely sick. people will acknowledge that, but then they say we need it, don't take away migrants. they go to the selfish mode. part of the cultural shift involves kind of thinking what are our obligations to each other? what is the baseline conception of the public? that will be hard to breakthrough. those questions are hard to ask in a culture that is so defined by selfishness and self interests. i don't know. that isn't even taller order then getting a bipartisan agreement to raise the age to buy an ar-15.

that is more difficult. >> that is why i asked the tough question to you, sir. panel, stick around, we have more to discuss. up next, i will ask my panelists what they want to hear from the generous six committee hearings as they continue. first, melissa rehberger is here. >> hi there, breaking news, within the last hours, 31 members of the white supremacist group, patriot front, were arrested on saturday. they prepared to stage a riot at a pride event in idaho. law enforcement officials found shields, shin guards and at least one smoker nate. donald trump has endorsed katie brick and a republican runoff primary for the alabama center. trump had initially backed representative moe brooks in the race, but pulled his support. the two are set to face off later on this month. north korea has appointed chose some he as its first female foreign minister on saturday. he has been a key negotiator

with nuclear talks with the u.s.. this comes after warnings from the u.s. that north korea is preparing to conduct a seventh nuclear test this month. more ayman after the break. ayman after the break attention please. millions of at&t and verizon customers are suffering from unexpected price hikes and economic adjustment charges. but there is a solution. right now, when you switch your family to t-mobile magenta max you can get up to a $1000 dollars and you'll get t-mobile's pricelock guarantee. they won't raise the rates of your rate plan ever.

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20 million americans tuned in to watch the january 6th committee's first public hearing, chairman benny thompson invites -- plain english about donald trump's illegal and unconstitutional actions. >> in legal jargon, you hear about seditious conspiracies, obstruction of an official proceeding, conspiracy to defraud the united states, it falls down to this. january 6th was the culmination of an attempted coup. >> the question now is, how will they continue to build their case?

and he norman at tara are back with me. tara, the consensus was that thursday's hearing was powerful, it was effective, my question to you is what needs to take center stage going forward? >> i think they laid the predicate for establishing the legality of donald trump's behavior. we have seen they cast a characters that testify under oath that clearly are not afraid to be honest about what happened that day, and potentially donald trump's role. so, according to liz cheney and benny thompson. so i'm hoping that they -- in the proceedings coming up, that they start to really show the receipts. that is where everyone wants to hear, they want to know what role, what did president trump know, when did he know, what did he, do what didn't he, do and why. who were the coconspirators. something that stood out to me was list cheney speaking about

congressman -- scott perry asking for preemptive pardon given has role in trying to overturn the election that day. not only him, but several other republican members of congress. really, who are those other members of congress? how do we know this? that is pretty damning statement that liz cheney made. she would only have made that if she has the receipts. so i'm looking forward to seeing some of that. i'm also looking forward to seeing if any issue comes up that would not only deal with the eulogy of the federal statutes that could potentially be a problem, but the idea of section three of the 14th amendment that disqualifies one from running from office if they are found to engage in an insurrection or rebellion against the united states. the government that happened after the civil war -- to avoid people who were anti government, anti democratic from being -- or taking place and part in something that try to overturn the government. does that apply to donald trump?

it seems to me like it does. so these are things that i'm looking forward to in the proceeding coming up. >> norm, what was the biggest launch of the hearing for you, and what should the committee continue to hone in from here on out to think, or expand upon? >> tara, mentioned one of them. there are a number of members of congress who asked for a pardon, we also know is there are members of congress who were involved in creating the conditions for this violent insurrection. we know a number of them, and they have captured them on closed circuit cameras, did tours of the capitol that were not supposed to take place because of covid during the days leading up to january 6th. we know that when people went into the capital, they knew exactly where to go, including two unmarked offices of leaders. i have been around for decades, and spent a lot of time at the capital, and a lot of time in these hideaway offices, they are unmarked, you are never going to know where they, are

or who they belong to, unless somebody takes you there or notion in vance. i think we're gonna see a number of members of congress deeply integrated in this, and my guess is many of them have conversations with donald trump. the second bombshell is that 300 proud boys after this clandestine meeting in a dark in garage with the oath keepers, didn't go to the rally, but cut to the chase and went right to the capital -- began to case the joint, i knew which windows were breakable ones, most of them are bulletproof basically. >> yeah. >> so this is not the proud boys spontaneously doing what they were doing. we need to trace this back, and frankly, i think it goes back even before the election. they were starting to lay the groundwork. one thing that is missing here, that i really wanted to see more of, was the shenanigans that trump used to replace people at the defense department at the very top, to make sure that no national guard troops would get to the capital to foil this plot.

very possibly, to lay the groundwork if he managed to get mike pence hank and other mayhem to an even greater extent, declaring martial law, and having the military -- >> right. >> and one of the things that i found most interesting was this moment, chairman thompson reflecting on living in mississippi what he called a, closed society after white extremists in the kkk effectively re-claimed power after reconstruction. for me, i couldn't help but see the parallels between what is happening now, between that moment in time that chairman was describing, and the white nationalist element of this insurrection crowd trying to overtake our government, and overthrow it. yet, now returning back to the communities, running for office, running four positions of power in this country, ultimately controlling the levers of power in our elections, school, boards and other levels of our society. >> you know, ayman, i

absolutely agree. it didn't -- i didn't -- i did not notice, or not notice that many times or invoked in mississippi in this moment. you are absolutely right the kind of collapse of radical reconstruction, had everything to do with the ascent, the assault on democratic rights across the south. you think about what happened in north carolina, in the late 19th century, where those little red shirt over, throw a coup that overthrew the government. so your harkening back to that history, actually it points -- but i want to see this really quickly, there is a sense in which as a professor, i was reading this first hearing as the interim directory paragraph. what they have done is they laid out in some ways the broad architecture of -- this is what we are going to do. i remember when you were writing papers in high school, in college, the professor was a tell me what you're going to do, then tell me what you did.

so we are getting in this moment are the beginnings of this narrative that draws and connects the dots, that offers details. it is this coherent story that we haven't heard. we have heard bits and pieces, we know what we saw, but a coherent narrative, we have heard the first paragraph, the first few pages in this first hearing. now we will begin to see the details, and then we will see the conclusion. that is what i saw. >> all right, panel, we will squeeze in a quick break. please stay with me. when we come back, the arrest of a republican gubernatorial candidate in michigan has thrown the state gop into chaos. we will tell you about that and more. t an more celebrate with bedroom furniture from $99. plumbing upgrades up to 60% off. outdoor furniture up to 50% off. and area rugs up to 70% off. plus free and fast shipping for 20 hours only.

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january six committee, there have been some pretty wild developments with the michigan republican party. this week, the fbi arrested and

raided the home of candidate trying kelly. he faces multiple misdemeanor charges for his role in the january six misses insurrection, according to a criminal complaint. just last week, to republican candidates flask separate appeals to overturn their disqualification from the gop governor race. there are among five gop candidates in that state, half of the parties field, half of the parties field, folks, declared ineligible because of forged signatures on their nominating packages. let that sink in for a moment. by saturday night panel is back with me. tara, i will start with you. your reaction to the fbi arresting ryan kelly just hours before the january six committee public hearing. >> it adds to the absolute conferee of cookery going on in the michigan gop. what is in the water ups there? that is not just now. michigan has been the epicenter

for a lot of this for sometime now. back during the 2020 election, when you had the attempts on the life of the governor there, you had the canvassing board to had one vote, one brave republican had stopped him from overturning the results from the 2020 election. now, you have this. listen, this guy's arrest was a long time coming. this conspiracy theory that they have there that the timing of this was because of the january six hearing, and that the fbi is up to get them, and because of that, it is put occult either. that is bs. this guy has been under investigation since a trump-appointed attorney began investigating him in 2021. they need to stop that. he was at the january 6th riot. he aided and abetted people. he climbed a scaffolding. other people who are brick and property -- it was a disaster, he was there. it is on video. this idea that he was somehow a political prisoner, which is

terms that he uses, is absurd. but, the sad part about all of this is that this will give a boost -- >> street red -- >> he is a maga martyr now. this is giving these people a boost in the polls, which shows you how sick and twisted the republican party politics have become in the day and age of donald trump. what is happening? >> norm, nobody does rejection like the way republicans do it. all we have been hearing from the last couple of years from republicans has been voter fraud, voter fraud, stolen elections, rigged elections. what do you make of these gop candidates being disqualified for not collecting enough valid signatures for the primary, and in some cases, allegedly faking the signatures to get on the ballots? >> we are seeing butter fraud, virtually all of it across the country is coming from republicans. the part of it is that they believe that they can get away with a lawless behavior. in many cases, they have.

i will tell you, ayman, i have roots in michigan. i lived there as a graduate student. i knew some of the moderate republicans that dominated the party back in the day. former governor bill -- even a moderate senator like bob griffin. but the party of george lenore romney, is now the party of insurrectionists support earring radical -- the chairman of the national republican party and the entire michigan republican party, emblematic of what we have seen in other states, including my native minnesota, has gone from moderate liberal and moderate republican conservatism to radical coal to some. radical colt's umph that is embodying illegal behavior and a willingness to overturn elections. this is where we are, and we better get out of it before a turns worse. >> eddie, you have republican

candidates that have been disqualified by trying to get onto a ballot without proper signatures. another arrest for insurrectionists activities on january six. as michigan here become a microcosm of the american stay other public and party? is this where the republican party is trending on a national level, and we will see more of it elsewhere. >> to my mind, very much so. i want to make this point clear. using the language of coltish, maybe right, maybe accurate. part of what we have to be mindful of as we enter the political season, is that we cannot get caught up in the traditional kind of descriptions of the political horse, race right? >> there are people and opponents that are not democratic actors. if we treat them as normal, political opponents within a horse race, we lose sight of the fact that many of these

people do not give a damn about democracy and such. they are using the democratic process as a means by which to pursue autocratic, neo-fascist aims and ends. michigan maybe an extreme example, but looks at what is happening in florida. look at what we see happening in texas. look at what is happening in north carolina. part of what we had to be mindful here, as we are on the eve of this political season, with the midterms and then 2024, we are not dealing with politics, as usual. there are folks out here that are using the democratic process for undemocratic ants. michigan is one extreme example. >> to that point, tara, sorry, norm, go ahead -- go ahead, norm. >> i want to add one thing to wear any said. watch these elections for secretary of state, for governor and states like michigan, because they're trying to elect people that

will do just what he said, use their offices to basically undermine and destroy democracy. these are election deniers and people willing to do to go to extremes. these elections are extraordinarily important for secretary state and governor. >> tara, your final thoughts. >> norm so much thunder, a little bit. i was going to say the exact same thing. great minds think alike. this is the first time that we really need to pay attention to these offices, the secretary of state and others on the ballot because of this. this is part of the maga agenda. to any's point, they are illiberal. that is why they are such an existential threat to democracy. there is no longer a valid republican party like before. we had a two party system where we argued over tax rates, but no one was arguing over whether elections were fair or worrying about democracy. that is over would. how do we know? because they are telling us. listen to the doug maggiano, who is running for governor of

pennsylvania. looked to the nuts of arizona, the qanon conspiracy theorists. listen to steve bannon who talks to millions of people on a daily basis on his podcast, telling people that threatening the department of justice, threatening the white house, if they don't give a damn about process and these things, he is a self devout leninist, for goodness sake. peter thiel, a major financier of jimmy vance in ohio wrote a book where he says he does not believe democracy works anymore. this is today's republican party. we need to pay attention to it. eddie, it is exactly right, none of this is normal. >> illiberal and anti-democratic is how i would describe the current state of the republican party. panel, stick around, when we come back, ginni thomas is one woman campaign, in her own capacity, to overturn the 2020 election. we will tell you about that. ut that. so this is the meta portal plus. a smart video calling device that makes working from home, work. it syncs with your favorite vc apps

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pull over. -that's not how planes work. ♪ ♪ everybody hold onto somebody. [ roar ] >> all rights to toonie thomas the wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas has found herself yet again the center of a conspiracy to overturn the 2020 election. the washington post found ginni thomas sent identical emails to 29 republican state lawmakers in arizona urging them to set aside joe biden's popular vote victory, and choose their own presidential electors. that number represents more than half of the republican members of the arizona state legislature at the time.

you should know that nbc news has not independently verified this report. back with me is my saturday night panel, eddie, i will take it to first. clarence and ginni thomas are lucky this report came out during the january six hearings, because what we know, learning -- what we keep learning basically about chinese actions, how can one in their right mind say that genie thomas did not have a conflict of interest with clarence thomas in the 2020 election cases. he was basically ruling on decisions that had to do with the 2020 election, and his wife was now, as we have learned, actively advocating to overthrow. >> you can't. i mean, it is clear, it is obvious. there is a conflict of interest here. these people actually believe that they are above the law. they want to apply certain standards, but those standards do not apply to them. i think it is really clear in this case that ginni thomas, actively worked to in some ways, participate in overthrowing an

election. she did not agree with the results. clarence thomas sits in a position, right, where he will actually have to participate in deliberating on cases involving this particular issue. it is very clear, it is a conflict of interest to my mind. again, who is holding these people to account? they seem to be able to do whatever the hell they want to. >> tara, are we finding the supreme court in the middle of a credibility crisis here between the leaked draft opinion on roe v. wade between ginni thomas's role in all of this, justice roberts, chief justice roberts not taking any action against clarence thomas, clarence thomas not taking -- recusing himself. oh can you possibly look at this supreme court with everything and -- in the final weeks of his presidency and not say this court has a credibility crisis. >> yeah, it is unfortunate. this is -- the supreme court has seen better days, that is for sure. the fact that john roberts

hasn't done anything yet, i think it's concerning. it is time for the chief justice to stand up, and do something, for the sake of the court. for the integrity of the court. could you imagine if the spouse of one of the justices during bush v. gore was actively involved in trying to overturn the 2000 election with pushing conspiracy theories, contacting members of congress, and everything else. could you imagine how republicans would have reacted to that in 2000? they would have freaked out. they would have been up like a thick about it as they should have been. could you imagine if the spouse of a supreme court justice was actively involved in conspiracy theories or efforts in foreign terrorist organizations attempts to overturn our government, there would be a whole different human being some by the republicans of that where the case. but ginni thomas -- they just the fight to let her go because she is the wife of clarence thomas, and all they love clarence thomas, he is the

conservative hero they want on the court. there is -- they don't say anything about, this this is insane. this woman is insane. some of the -- we are not just talking about contracting 29 lawmakers, and trying to convince them to overturn government. she believed there were camps and flights on the way to -- four people. these are out there conspiracy theories that are dangers, that are unhinged completely unhinged. i think it was christopher hitches who said conspiracy theories are the exhaustive views of democracy. he might be right. >> yeah, i think i agree with him, i don't agree with him on a lot of, things but i agree with him on that one. >> me neither. >> norm, why hasn't congress in your opinion fast tracked legislation to impose any kind of additional ethics rules on supreme court justices. i mean, it seems like a common sense approach to just try and at the very least to protect that institution. >> i've been a part of -- four years that have been trying to get the ethics, a

judicial code of ethics that applies to every federal judge, also wanting to the supreme court. we had a hearing on this now, but you know, it is going to be filibustered. here i agree completely with tara. john roberts is a wall, obviously. he has gone to -- on the leak of the draft -- >> yeah. >> but says nothing about these ethical violations. let's remember, ginni thomas didn't just contact arizona lawmakers, she had multiple conversations with mark meadows the chief of staff at the white house. we know she had an open door to meet regularly, or frequently with donald trump. we also know that she has been a radical advocate for decades, and not once in the actions she has taken that have involved decisions at the supreme court as clarence thomas recused himself. this is a walking ethical violation sitting on the supreme court. it is scandalous, and it goes

right to the top to the chief justice, and we should also add that the credibility of the court, we have another gun control decision coming up, circling back to where we started. -- more radical action that would undermine even the mild things that congress is going to do. look at row, they are going to basically cut out the ability of federal agencies to do anything in health, safety, or the environment. we are going to face a much more serious crisis with the supreme court, and this is just the beginning -- >> again, we go back to the liberal democracy and the role of the supreme court and all of this. >> i wonder why we are not hearing more about the supreme court from congress. and just broadly speaking, or more specifically speaking, why is the january six committee is staying away from ginni thomas? >> i have no idea, to be honest with you, i --

you know in our past, the court has played a significant role in, shall we say challenging the foundation -- which all this white terror what we talked about earlier, the court played a substantial role. remember -- was the culmination of the collapse of radical reconstruction. then there is the series of judicial decisions up until brown v. -- so the court is playing a role in some ways to the liberal dimensions of american history. so i don't understand the congresses role, i don't understand democrats not sounding the alarm, fighting more aggressively here, but i do understand this. i want to say this very quickly. at the center of our politics, it seems to me, is a version of the american voter that is always republican.

it seems like that constitution, the center of gravity of our response we are constantly responding to that particular image of the american voter. until we dissenter it, then we will find ourselves looking the other way when these folks do what they do. it seems to me. i hope that makes sense -- >> absolutely, no, very powerful waves on a saturday night. no doubt about it. i greatly appreciate that. >> -- actions have consequences, ayman, that is what we have to learn from this. elections have consequences. because donald trump won the election in 2020, he was able to appoint three supreme court justices. that is one of the responsibilities of the president of the united states that i think is lost on a lot of democratic constituency, very much animates the republicans. that was part of the reason why so many people in the christian community voted for donald trump, so they could get exactly what they are getting now. so elections have consequences, and i hope that democrats use this as an example as to why

people need to pay more attention to who they lacked, and why. >> listen, i'm right there with, you i will be right there saying democrats they can call congress, they control the white house, they have won the votes, there are consequences for them women. expand the court. but term limits on the supreme court justices. do something to moderate the extremism over the summer in court, and apply that principles -- across the board, not just when republicans are in power and they get to run gunshot or whatever they want. norm, your thoughts on this, i mean, what do you make of this broader discussion about the supreme court, but specifically whether or not the january six committee is right to stay away from ginni thomas and this conversation? >> we've had one hearing, we have five more to go. i am sure hoping that they will point to all of those key members of congress, and ginni thomas, and the role they played. we need to hear more about the role of rudy giuliani, the -- they have a lot to go on there.

about alex jones. but ginni thomas is a cute player, here and i am hoping you are right that we will see some action on the court. one thing i need to add for what tara said, elections have consequences, but it wasn't just donald trump, it was mitch mcconnell basically illegitimately putting two members of the supreme court, 18 days before a presidential election, the other of course we know merrick garland. so, it is not just elections, it is the violation of norms and you have to fight back against that. i'm not seeing much fighting going on. >> yeah, i completely agree with you. i don't think the democrats are -- you know, really in this fight to save our democracy at this moment. at least that is how i am seeing it -- >> not 50. >> absolutely. eddie,, norm tara, thank you so much for your time tonight. greatly appreciate it. we will be right back after this quick break. is quick break

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programming now. tomorrow, msnbc will shoot the final episode of the devils advocate, the most nature story of giovanni destefano. it's a three part series following the fall of the famed attorney, who represented the who's who of the criminal world to disgraced con man. here's a quick preview. >> in 1990, i was a reporter on the program called the home show, which was a nightly current affairs show. gia vanity stefano, the mogul from mgm waltzes into town with pockets full of cash. saying, he had $70 million to spend. >> new zealand offers to any businessman three times the return of their money with cash flow within two years. >> there was a good news story because we had just got out of

a recession. >> here there was somebody buying a property but the more i looked at it, the more i listened, there was something very wrong here. there were a whole lot of things that do not add up. >> watch the third and final episode of devils advocate tomorrow on 10 pm eastern on msnbc and streaming on peacock. if you missed episodes one and two, catch up now on peacock. thank you for making time for us this evening. did you know that you could hear the latest news and updates from all of your favor msnbc see hosts anytime, anywhere, on any device would tune in. yep, scan the qr code here now. come back tomorrow for an american radical team special our. i'll be joined by daniel goldman and nbc news reporter, ben collins. we will talk about radicalization and the trump mob. and how they are being held to account by the justice system.

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