good morning, it is sunday june 12th. it is 9 am in the east 6 am in the west. i am's in high a similar i -- authorities say they came to riot. 31 people linked to a white nationalist group in a pride event in idaho yesterday. we have the latest on the arrest and everything we know on the movement that is allegedly behind the group. plus, intense street to street street fighting in eastern ukraine as officials plead for more help but the west will get a live update. the conversation with the conversation behind a renewed effort for reigning incumbents in the wake of the uvalde, massacre. we begin with the week ahead from the january 6th select committee. three more public hearings are set for this. week as the committee presents the findings for its capital

insurrection findings. the outline out -- showing never before seen video showing they are expected to go into greater detail to explain how the big lie that the 2020 election was stolen led to the january 6th riot on capitol hill here's the rundown. the committee will reconvene about 24 hours from now at 10 am eastern, to talk about the origins of the big lie. then on wednesday, they will describe the turmoil within the justice department, for the weeks following the 2020 election. and on thursday, the panel spotlight donald trump's efforts to pressure mike pence to reject certain states electoral votes. among the witnesses who are expected to testimony testify at these hearings, the former acting attorney general who was put in charge of the justice department after bill barr left his post in the late december 2020. also expected to testify is greg jacobs, former vice president that pence's top lawyer, who advised him that he did not have the authority to reject the electoral count, contrary to claims made by

former president trump and others. political recently obtained his memo to pence, alluding to the constitutional crisis that could happen if pence carried out trump's plan. jacob wrote, quote, the vice president could likely find himself in an isolated standoff against both houses of congress with no mutual arbiter to break the impact. let's dig into all of this with kyle cheney, senior legal affairs attorney. kyle, thank you for being here. what was your biggest take away from the first primetime hearing? we saw there were before seeing video, and their widows were in the room. very raw emotions. what do you make of all that? >> i think that aspect of it was meant to remind people of the horror that day. it has been 17 months since then. it has faded for a lot of people who have trump not tracked every twist in turn of this investigation. but the brock take away from that hearing was that they are going to let donald trump's aides and advisories, his own

appointees, tell the stories of what happened. video evidence, testimony from even his own daughter, agreeing to some of the promises of the investigation. things that led to the violence on the capitol hill. that, to me, we're gonna see that going forward in the next hearings. donald trump's own people in their own words saying what happens. >> we know the committee is scheduled three hearings over the last several days. last week we heard from caroline edwards, believed to be the first injured in the attack. as well as ivanka trump, as you mentioned. among those expected to testify this week, who are you most interested in hearing from? >> greg jacob, the chief -- to mike pence who was the chief mine behind mike pence's thinking going into the january six sessions, arguing and pushing back against people like donald trump and john eastman, the attorney. who was masterminding legal strategies for trump. i think that hearing him live, and hearing him explain and

articulate why he advised pence against going down this dangerous path could be very compelling. >> i want to get something you recently reported on. a new you retain the copy of the memo that former vice president mike trump mike pence sent him on january 5th, the devised him against carrying out trump's plan. we will show you learn from that? memo went with a top selling points? >> this is the basis, in some ways, for the committee has concluded. donald trump did not just commit essentially a political crime here. it actually crossed into criminal territory with what he did. greg jacob at lines in his memo several ways that the plans trump and his allies could violate the electoral count act, and the law that governs how that process works. he was advising by mike president vice president pence, if you do this it could violate several iterations of this law which was around since 1977 to help the transition of power.

so the committee gets home did not at that potential legal violation as potentially a sign that donald trump committed criminal acts addition to just the pressure campaign itself. >> are you talking about what about pence and trump. it seems like the committee is laying the groundwork to explore the rift between donald trump and mike pence. how important is that to understanding what exactly happened on january six? >> when you think about, it pence is the clear gigs clearest example of somebody who is the ultimate trump loyalist. for the entirety of his four-year term. so the fact that the two of them had a falling out over what's became this crisis on january six, i mean, trump spent the last several weeks of his presidency pressuring mike pence to do something that pence viewed as a legal, and ultimately would've caused a constitutional crisis even greater than the one we saw that say. so the fact that that relationship was able to splinter over this tells you just how egregious it was in his mind that pence had been in lockstep with donald trump all the way through his term, until

that point. >> for someone who's not been in lockstep with donald trump was liz cheney, she was one of the only republicans on the -- issue focus on president trump and his role in january six. when you think she wants the american people to get of these investigations? >> i think the committee is a whole, including senator cheney, want to tell a clear story to the american people. there are a lot of complexities to what happened, but at the end of the day this whole story is about donald trump. he provoked the false claim about the election, he provoked this mob eventually stormed the capitol. and he at the end of the day was responsible for the things that happened around him that he helped drive forward. so i think she made it very clear that to the committee's bottom line and she wants a returner stand itchy and harvey does not think that he should never be anywhere near a position of power again. the republican party or the country. she tried it to make that very explicit in her remarks. >> great analysis kyle cheney,

thank you very much. for more on this, joining me now is democratic congressman david cicilline of rhode island. last year he served as an impeachment manager during the second impeachment of donald trump. congressman, thank you for joining. in some ways the january six committee is building on the work that you and your colleagues started while working on donald trump's second impeachment. they outlined the findings thursday. when you said that they had significantly more evidence than you did in 2021 during that second impeachment of former president donald trump. can you dig into that for us a bit? >> sure. they have done an extraordinary job. this is been very bipartisan. they have interviewed over 1000 witnesses collected over 140,000 pages of documents. and i think they are going to be able to continue to tell the american people the full story about the financing and planning and execution of an attempt to keep donald trump in power despite the vote of the american people to elect a new president and to disrupt this

official proceeding, the electoral counting of votes, with where the peaceful transferal of power has always occurred. so i think they're going to be able to demonstrate that crimes were committed that this activity comes from liz cheney laid out and involves violation of laws. this is not just a protest that went to what ride by the carefully executed effort to really overturn the results of an election and keep donald trump in power despite that he lost the election. we have never seen any attempted coup like this in the history of our country. and i think that the committee is going to be very methodically presenting all of the evidence to the american people that they are presented and everybody cares about a marketing this country should be horrified and angry and committed to making sure that it can never happen again in america. >> put simply, i want to hear from you. do you believe, some do, that the goal of this committee should be to build a criminal case against donald trump? >> well, no.

the goal of this committee as a legislative committee. the responsibilities to gather the facts. but i think it is inevitable that as you gather the facts of these cases, you can't help but concluded that crimes were committed. that will ultimately be the responsibility of the department of justice. who is the only agency within the federal government to the charges people. but i do not think there is any question that's what's they have collected will be very useful to compliment the investigation underway with the department of justice. part of the way they make sure this never happens again if you make certain that everybody who is involved and participated in it any way is held accountable, and that includes the former president. no one in america is above the law. >> turning to the issue of guns, the bipartisan commerce and they're working on the package of new gun laws have so that they are very closely in agreement. there are provisions for mental health, school security, but no new restrictions on assault weapons or high capacity magazines. which we have often used in these mass shootings. and i know that you have been calling for assault weapons to

be bands, and how spoken pretty passionately about it just this month. first, let's take a listen. >> shame on our colleagues. you don't want to talk about it, you want to address it, do not come to the hearing. >> strong words there. given how difficult reforming gun legislation in the u.s. has proven to be, are you concerned about what's might get negotiated of this bill? >> no. i have been in contact with senator murphy, who is leading the effort on the democratic side. he has been an extraordinary champion of this work for a long time. we recognize that the rules of the senate do not allow the democrats alone to move legislation. it requires ten republicans for more than 16 areas of the senate. i think that this moment is an extraordinary moment where there seems to be some willingness to work with democrats. so i, hope and i am optimistic that we can get something done. and it has to be substantial. but look, we gave them a good

piece of legislation which protected american kids as well as the red flag laws that lucy mcbath introduced. these are really good bills that will make a real difference that i hope the senate can compromise on, and includes much of that as possible. the bottom line is, we have got to do something. make some real progress. we have a gun violence epidemic in this country. and the idea that somebody has a severe mental illness and a has exhibited a danger to themselves or to other people, and even made a declaration of their intention to slaughter children, or should have a public place, that person should somehow have unfettered access to a firearm, that is completely insane and wrong and should not happen. i have passed a red flag law keeping guns are the hands of dangerous people. i hope that is part of the package. but we've got to make some progress and do something about this epidemic in our country. and when children can go to school safely, people cannot go to churches and synagogues and

pray, we have a problem. and congress has the responsibility of doing something about it. >> we will be watching this bill closely. david cicilline overland, thank you. >> thank you. >> still to come, tens of millions of americans tuned into that historic start of the january six committees public hearings, which began to clearly lay out the former presidents role in which many believe to be an attempted q, an effort to overthrow american democracy. will this earrings change any minds? plus, intense street to street fighting continuing ukraine's east. we will go to the war torn country for a live report. next, we go to idaho. where tense situation is unfolding involving more than 30 people linked to a white nationalist group who allegedly descended on an annual lgbtq+ parade with ill intentions. they release medicine fast for fast pain relief. and now get relief without a pill with tylenol dissolve packs. relief without the water.

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members of a group arrested i

will yesterday attending can cause chaos downtown to the pride events taking place in a park. they told reporters, quote, that they came to riot. -- they are affiliated with a white nationalist group patriot front, who were detained after just being discovered riding in the back of a u-haul truck carrying -- weapons and smoke grenades. they were reported seeing a group of masked individuals all wearing the same attire, looking into the vehicle. they told police that the group, quote, look like a little army. all 31 individuals were charged with the conspiracy to riot, and among those arrested was thomas mercer, the founder of patriot front. the group was stop not far from where pride in the park was underway. that is an annual lgbtq+ event. for weeks that event has been a target of separate anti-lgbtq groups, called panhandle patriots. they deliberately scheduled a counter event on the same day as pride in the park, to, quote, go head to head with these

people. according to an organizer the panhandle patron event. joining me to dig into this now is ryan riley, justice reporter for nbc news. good to see you. the southern poverty law center describes the patriot front as a white nationalist hate group. they are not new. they came to notoriety during the george floyd protest for allegedly vandalizing black lives matter statues. explain to viewers who they are and why patriot front appears to be attempting to target pride yesterday. >> yes. patriot front is a neo-nazi extremist white wing group that came about after the charlottesville attack. and grew out of that. the power in this group is their anonymity. even without the criminal charges, the real news here is that this sort of shatter that anonymity. obviously groups, no matter how despicable and hateful their views are, have first amendment rights. but the patriot front readily goes beyond that. it is interesting. i remember seeing people marching in bc, and in that

instance you have law enforcement afterwards, when you're in the hall in this u-haul, law enforcement was gathered around and watching them get into that u-haul. which of, course you cannot have a bunch of people writing run in the back of a u-haul. that is something we could get people put into custody, could get their identity -- will happen yesterday as you had long forsman and masking these folks scooby-doo style, is that you are going to shatter this anonymity in this power of this group. this is something that is going to reflect on these individuals for the rest of their lives, regardless of their status as criminal charges. they were arrested as a member of patriots group in the back of a u-haul. at this pride event. >> you talk about this than being unmasked scooby-doo style. i do know that there were uniforms and masks where they use clinics and private messaging channels. and in the mid east killer success. their founder even, said quote, the enemy cannot attack you if they do not know who you are. of, course point to us, now they have been arrested. what implications could this have for the group and other white nationalists? >> anytime you have law

enforcement involved in some sort of a bus like this people start turning on each other. i think that is something that you could see potentially happen very quickly. a potential charges. even though these are relatively low level local charges at the time being. that is something that could be beneficial to law enforcement officials in the future might want. somebody cooperating running records that show future criminal acts. but patriot front has been infiltrated in the past in terms of getting their information hacked. there has been a lot of data discomfort about individuals who were associated with them. there's been information going into great detail about their fitness retains, their weight, different meal plans that they have going. some of this information has come out before and some individuals have been identified. but just having that network shattering that anonymity i think could help them. it really goes to the core of this group and their potential of going forward. shattering that in the mighty.

their name is going to be associated with this hateful group forever. >> ryan, let's go big picture. the fbi has reported a rise of hate crimes in the country. how is the patient front different from far other far-right extremist groups that we have been hearing more about? likely oath keepers and the proud boys who were involved in january six. what is the difference? >> this is a pretty explicitly white supremacist organization, and it is pretty fair to call them neo-nazis. some of these other groups obviously would differ with that, but i don't think this group actually combats that. they are not disputing the fact that they are white white nationalist, it white supremacist organization. and that is what really makes them stand out. they are truly radical and extreme in the northeast a major element of that. it also skis a lot younger. look at these photos. the oath keepers are an older democratic. demographic. a lot of former long fissures, a lot of former members of the military. but these are young guys when you talk about some of these patriot members.

i think it is also a component that makes this really scary because it is not something that is fading away generationally. this is an extremist white supremacist group that is really young, skews pretty. so i think that is one thing that makes them stand out from these other organizations. >> right. a young group to walk out for in watch out for these years to come. ryan, riley thank you. weeks after the elementary school mass shooting we are still learning conflicting details about the police respond to the uvalde massacre. a live report is next on a special report of msnbc reports. plus we will talk to the congressman behind one of the few gun reform efforts in congress that looks like it might have a chance of becoming law. stay tuned. law. stay tuned multimatic shocks, rugged 33-inch tires, and front and rear electronic locking differentials. dude, this is awesome... but we should get back to work. ♪ ♪

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chief pete arredondo gave a puzzling interview with the texas reviewing which he said that he did not consider himself the person in charge at the scene, when he revealed he intentionally left his radios behind. now, texas state senator -- guterres said the chiefs aren't on that was directly in contrast with the texas department of public safety says about the shooting. a new york times analysis along enforcement documents and video including transcripts of body camera footage found that 33 children and three teachers were still alive during the hour in 17 minutes where the police waited for tactical gear to be delivered to the scene. nbc news has not seen or verified that material. in the days since the shooting, it would honor his repeated claims that he and his officers hesitated to act. joining me now from uvalde texas is nbc's antonia hilton. and tonya, good morning. but caribbean article was chilling. from that number, 77, it took 77 minutes for long forsman to neutralize the shooter to arredondo saying he was praying as the unsuccessfully tempted

to unlock the classroom door with an assortment of keys. are we getting any clarity on these new claims from the chief? >> good morning isn't. clay clarity has been hard to come by in covering this story. i think was to go to so many folks from the texas tribune reporting is as you mentioned that the chief was not aware that he was an incident commander. the person in charge on the scene. he said he left his radius behind because he needed to hands free to handle his firearm. as he described, he tried key after key, praying that he could get the right went to get through and finally confronts the gunman. law enforcement efforts were saying that this is highly unusual. it reflects a certain lack of preparedness. the chief of police of a school district should have, for example, all the case to the classroom on the campus they are responsible for. they should know to have the radio on them to communicate with people on the ground. and that he should be aware

that he is the person in charge. he is the police chief. here on the ground to tell you that the families that we are talking to are exhausted. they are angry. and every new bit of information just leads to more questions. take a look at some answers to the questions i had the memorial site of just the other day. >> definitely following what has been put out this morning is upsetting. disgusting. and i just feel for these families. of this community. and i hope that we can put things in place that won't happen here. one time and again. >> how are you doing? how are you feeling? >> i am upset inside. for those kids who have lost their lives, families, it is not easy for me.

those kids deserve a longer life. they deserved better. those of families who are suffering. it isn't right. it is not right at all. >> my conversation with an eight year old you just went there, lisa, has really stayed with me. it is emblematic of not just how the adults in this community feel, but how much all this is been understood bites and his impact on children. i was talking to her as a funeral for one of the case was going on just around the corner. so you really get a sense here that people are waiting. it is now been more than two weeks since this gunman killed 19 children into beloved teachers here. and people want better answers, zinhle. >> tender word from a trial there. they deserve better. under the mouth of nbc's antonio hill sent in uvalde, texas. thank you. this shooting has renewed calls for policy changes. i was taking actress on the

package gonna form legislations, and they passed several measures including banning high-ammunition magazines. and red flag laws which allow police to take away guns from those who pose imminent danger to themselves or others. the bills aren't expected to pass in the senate, but there is another bill that could potentially have more bipartisan support. it is a measure introduced by maryland congressman anthony brown. on wednesday the house voted to approve brown's bill which would raise the legal age to purchase an automatic rifle from 18 to 21. democratic congressman anthony brown from maryland joins me now. good morning congressman. let's just jump in. are you confident about your bill to raise the legal age to buy an assault rifle or have a better chance of gaining bipartisan support and passing it in the senate, then the other bill introduced this week? and plainly, why? >> well, zinhle, thinks for having me. i'm optimistic that raising the age to purchase a semiautomatic rifle has the potential for

passage in the senate. abraham lincoln said public sentiment is everything. we know that there is strong public support to raise the age to purchase a semiautomatic rifle. same issue that is required under federal law to buy a handgun. we know that six in the last nine mass shootings since 2018 have involved a person under the age of 21. and we also know that 60% of the victims in mass shootings evolved a mass shooting with a semiautomatic rifle. it is common sense. i believe that there ought to be an opportunity in the senate to accept what we sent in to get this to president biden's four signature. >> harrowing numbers, charlie young some of the victims intruders are. i think a key word in your book here is bipartisan. one of top of having with the republican colleagues to try to ensure that this bill can actually advance through the senate? when you saying to them? one of the conversations? >> keep in mind that when i filed the bill three years ago,

four years ago, i only had two republican cosponsors. the bill did pass the house floor this week, with ten republican votes. it is a modest game, but it definitely demonstrates that there are more republicans who are open to the idea of raising the age. and i continue to point to the numbers. the statistics. the number of mass shootings that we are seeing. buffalo, volley, hartland, florida. which motivated the florida republican legislature with the republican governor, to raise the age to buy a semiautomatic rifle in florida. i pointed to these things. we talk about how there had to be some reasonable restrictions on the second amendments. look. i would like to ban assault weapons altogether. but if we are not doing that, we've got to make modest gains modest progress. everything that we do will help reduce gun violence.

>> to that, and congressman, it is also unique that this legislation has an element for gun storage. talk to me about that. when you think it is important it should be passed to the federal level? >> the reason why that is important is that gun violence is not just mass shootings. it is not just randomized shootings. it's on his includes suicide and children who were handling a weapon that they had no idea what's they were handling. and i think it is a toy. what we are requiring is a federal standard, with money to support a safe storage regime in this country. so look, lawful gun owners, they buy it and they store it safely. and that reduces the likelihood that that gets in the hands of a person who should not have it. >> right. briefly, congressman, i would love to hear from you. nbc's reported that a bipartisan group is trying to get a narrow compromise a bill that would strengthen background checks and prove mental health services, and bolster school security. we'll kills about that effort? >> look.

it is an important step forward. another senator murphy is not involved in that with senator mccormack in the senate. we sent the house sent, universal back in talks to the senate twice already. so there's definitely support in the house. there is support among 86% of american public. also responsible gun owners support that. certainly more money in mental health and strengthening security in our schools, that would receive support in the house. and we have also sent to the senate a red flag law just this week. so those are three areas that we should be able to move forward on, it is my hope we will do one of only in those three areas but in some of the provisions, not all of them, they're in the protective act that we discussed already. >> a lot to look out for. democratic representative anthony run of my home state of maryland, thank you. up next, hold on to your wallets. the latest inflation report reveals where most of us are already feeling, prices are rising, and fast. >> well, i think the warren

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watching these numbers click up for days. but this is a partial this many people have been dreading. a number of states have already seen five-dollar gas, which is now officially the national average. experts say they do not expect relief anytime soon. drivers nationwide have been driving this. the average price for a gallon of gas has now gone to $5, according to aaa. this is the most expensive in history. >> it is insane. >> i dread coming to the gaspé should because i know it is going to be $100 once i pump. >> still, well -- is down news of inflation is up. now getting to the highest levels in 40 years. >> i think it is a really strangling to people. >> and americans are feeling the squeeze at every turn. the cost of food is up more than 10%. that includes everyday grocery items like, dairy meat, and fruit. and archie is up a whopping 50%. the price of housing and cars is also on the rise. items that typically tend to

remain more stable. the difference is striking. economists say that compared to last year the average american family is paying $460 more per month for goods and services. >> how much of an impact does this have on the average family? >> i think it is a very significant impact. it is a question of how you make budgets stretch. and after a point, it is to be, how do you make plans? >> for president biden's costing political capital. >> i understand americans are anxious. they are anxious for good reason. >> speaking of los angeles, the president called inflation a top priority. but the blame, he says, lies largely on russia's war in ukraine. >> today's inflation reports confirm when americans already know. prudence prices hitting america hard. >> all of it placing growing pressure on the federal reserve which is set to meet next week to discuss how much they will raise interest rates. some experts worry that the fix is coming too late. >> this is the first time in

decades that we really find the fed chasing inflation, as opposed to putting it out preemptively. and that could make for some very difficult times ahead. >> there are new numbers reflecting just how americans feel about the economy overall. the short answer is, not so good. according to one, study consumer confidence has dropped about 40% from last year. that is a major drop. it also has an impact on peoples spending habits. in fact, if you just consider gas prices alone, according to aaa this popular threshold is where about 75% of americans say they will start to dramatically change their habits going forward. back to you. >> reporting, blaine alexandra, thank you for that report. next, we turn overseas tour vladimir putin is now publicly comparing himself to peter the great. we will go live from ukraine for the latest on the war that he is waiting there. they only cover select cities with 5g. and with coverage of over 96% of interstate highway miles, they've got us covered.

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a lawn. the war with ukraine was expected to last only three days. -- creating a land bridge to crimea in which russia invaded and illegally annexed in 2014. the fighting remains focused in the house, with intense street to street combat ranging in the last major eastern city, which is not fully under russian control. ukrainian officials continue to call for more weapons and aids for with has become a war of attrition in the donbas. back in moscow, putin is not comparing himself to peter the great. saying that they share the same goal of building a russian empire. joining me now live humbled of, foreign correspondent molly hunter. molly, good to see you. -- is now claiming to be peter the great. we know this is largely fueled by his ambitions. you've been spending time in ukraine sees. one of people making of the

statements and the people on the ground? >> hi zinhle, nice to be with you as well. there is no limits to what he is or is not saying here in eastern ukraine but really heavily focused on that fighting aren't severodonetsk and the donbas region. we've been talking for the last two weeks, sievierodonetsk has really been where the fiercest fighting has been focused. we may be looking down the barrel for the next two or three days. a critical two or three days according to the regional governor. so, russian controls most of that city. they are trying to complete their encirclement of that city, according to the local regional governor there. he says that the situation is a very difficult, and that the russians are making every effort to cut off severodonetsk. they have not done that yet. they are shelling sievierodonetsk extremely hard. what we are watching for, though, in the next couple days, is that chance. it is a town just on the road, zinhle, it is also where the president visited just a few days ago. a bridge has been heavily

shelled that was supplying materials to ukrainian troops still fighting. the problem in the donbas, though, as you mention, is it not only are trump being forced to retreat to say for more defensible positions, but they are outgunned and running out of munition. they are also running low on soldiers. unless we defenceman esther was losing about 100 ukrainian soldiers on the battlefield, every single day. well on friday, an adviser to zelenskyy's office said that number was actually about 200 a day. combining that with the people, the soldiers, who were wounded, the washington post estimates that ukraine could be losing about 1000 people on the battlefield, every single day. i do want to bring up to date on one other headline overnight. russian missiles, for russian missiles, hitting a town in the west of ukraine. the russian defense ministry says that those missiles could destroy a military warehouse that was full of eight from the u.s.. and the european union. now the regional governor there would not confirm whether or

not there was any military aid in there, and he can't confirm what was in their. but really it is a reminder of the range of the russian military, and that the russian military can hit things across the -- >> absolutely, heavy casualties there. molly hunter in a crane, stay safe. thank you. of, next january six committee's historic public hearings are underway. but, will the evidence turn republican voters against donald trump? the answer after a quick break, on a special edition of msnbc reports. reports. meets power? you try crazy things... ...because you're crazy... ...and you like it. you get bigger... ...badder... ...faster. ♪ you can never have too much of a good thing... and power is a very good thing. ♪

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i am zinhle essamuah. 20 million. that is how many tuned into the first televised hearing of the january six committee on thursday. according to data from nelson. for context, for president donald from second impeachment trial following the senate insurrection brought about 11 million viewers. 12 networks carried the hearing alive, but as you can see, one of these is not like the others. fox news did not cover the historic hearing. instead, it aired two hours of uninterrupted to counter programming. and according to tv line, fox news averaged 3 million viewers of the course of the hearing. well as regular prime time programming aired instead. we know that trump's base runs deep, many of his supporters are loyal fox viewers. that means that many of them like we did not witness the illuminating evidence laid out by the committee on thursday. so the question is, will these herrings move the needle?

my next guest says that over 75% of americans have already made up their minds. joining me now is frank lots, a political strategist and poster. author of words that work. it's not what you say it's what people here. frank, i'm so glad we have you. you understand the pulse of the republican party. and americans broadly. so real top let's get to it. did any minds change after thursday night's hearing? >> here is the problem. and the challenge, quite frankly. that's a nine minute video was a mind-blowing. i myself have seen all the footage of to this point and was shocked by how brutal january 6th was. if you watch that video, you cannot help a believe that something incredibly horrible happened. it is that people should be held accountable. here is the problem. that video did not start until 30 minutes into those hearings. the first six or seven minutes are just -- delivering a relatively boring presentation. the next 20 minutes was

interspersed with a bit of video. quite frankly, a lot of the people who tuned in to see the action, tune in to get the truth, probably were not watching. the key in this, and whether this is going to be impactful, and you can see the video right in front of you right now. the key in this is, do we ask the question? do they say, why did this happen? what's the cause? do they deliver statements? did they deliver declarations? the way that you reach independent voters, and those the the ones that are targeted by those hearings, is by asking questions. which lets the viewers themselves come up with the answers. my conclusion for you is, it may have had an impact. but not nearly as much as it could have been. >> frank, you said the audience, was in your assessment, for independent voters. i know you've spoken at times emotionally about how divisive america has become. why just happened to move the guy on extreme trump supporters? do you think they were even

watching? >> no, i don't believe that they were watching. fox got its typical writing on a thursday night. they did not do better, they did not do worse. they average about 3 million viewers. and frankly, to put this into perspective, joe biden's state of the union address got 38 million people watching. and this only got 20 million. so the people who they want to reach did not tune in and if they do they probably were not watching at the moment the video came on. the only way they're going to make a difference here, quite frankly, is not what they say but what they show. i know it sounds similar to -- it is not what you say to people here. but the fact is, it is not what you see. it is the video that makes a difference. and if they see the video they could come to a different conclusion. but unless they see that video, they won't. >> to that point, that video was chilling. the emotion and the work was so wrong. and you watch thursday night's hearing with some of your

students. given your observations on the reactions in realtime, what does the committee need to do in the future? which they absolutely avoid repeating if they want to reach that audience that we talked about? >> that is a good question. two pieces of advice. one, politicians need to step off center stage. i know that they think that the hearing is about them. the truth is, it has nothing to do with them. and everything to do is we have been 18 months ago. that is number one. and we're, to that video. that nine minutes. that needs to be a part of every aspect. simply ask the question. why did this happen? if the whole hearings, the next five hearings, are all about answering that question, and how do we prevent it from happening, then you will get an impact. but unfortunately, politicians dual politicians do. speak less, show more. >> and frank, what do you think -- we talked about extreme to

trump reporters in those who talked about the big lie. is anything we need to hear about these hearings to change their view? it is not a lost cause? >> they are not going to change. there are people who are hostile to trump. they are not going to hear anything either. both left and right have made up their minds. the question in battle right now is for the center of america, and who controls the heart mind and soul of those people. then, the control the midterm election. until 2024. if we are to do something positive, we will seek to reach those people who can be reached, and we will show them the evidence and the facts. there is no counter narrative. there was no cross-examination. if you actually want trump voters to watch, they need to know that there was someone on their side who is going to be saying, wait a minute. that is not -- you are only seeing part of the picture. you are not getting the full picture. none of that was in evidence. we have to open our minds. we have to show people with the

evidence is. and you actually do need to represent a trump perspective if you want trump voters to pay attention. >> important perspectives. frank luntz, thank you so much. >> thank you, it is an honor. >> quick programming note. tonight, msnbc presents the losses of the devils advocate, the mostly true story of gianna stephen ono. a three part series following the attorney's journey to a disgrace common. -- representative who's who of the criminal. world from manson to saddam hussein. catch the final episode of devils advocate, the mostly true story of giovanni destefano. tonight, on 10 pm eastern, on msnbc and streaming on peacock. that does it for me. zinhle essamuah. thank you for watching a special edition of msnbc supports. and make sure to catch velshi every saturday and sunday mornings, from eight to 10 am eastern. stay well. the sunday show with jonathan

kaye part begins right now. good morning. welcome to the sunday show. i am jonathan capehart. the sunday we begin with a nation in suspense. we are just 24 hours away from day two of the blockbuster january six committee hearings. with lawmakers like committee vice chair liz cheney, promising evidence for former president trump knowing all along the big lie was just that. a lie. >> you will see that donald trump and his advisor knew that he had in fact lost the election. but despite this, president trump engaged in a massive effort to spread false and fraudulent information. to convince huge portions of the u.s. population that fraud had stolen the election from him. this was not true.