all improv and so much fun and it seems like it was an amazing night. >> and ariana debose being the host, she's fresh off hollywood gold for winning for west side story. it is nice so see her at the end of the tony awards celebrating. she's a broadway gal. >> and frank, i'm all for short of theeagot, but there was a tribute last night toward some of the understudies. this is a tony awards that comes in the shadow of the pandemic. we were talking before you came on, broadway largely returned to life but still seeing reports of cast members going down because they test positive. so talk about the important role that the behind the scenes people have played to keep broadway going during this tough time. >> well ariana gave multiple shoutouts and what was amazing

was for the performance of 6, one of the ladies had covid. so one of the understudies stepped in last minute and she got a shout out and that was pretty incredible to watch. >> all right, frank, di lella, thank you so much. everyone looks so happy. we appreciate you're coming on this morning. it is the very top of the fourth hour of "morning joe." and in less than one hour, the january 6 house select committee will hold its second public hearing on capitol hill this morning. the panel is expected to delve deeper into the big lie. lawmakers are expected to lay the case out that former president trump knew he lost the 2020 election. and made an effort to spread disinformation. today's witness list includes former trump campaign manager bill stepian.

and we're hearing about the hearings. two more hearings are going to take place this week on wednesday, the panel will focus on pushback from the justice department. and former acting attorney general jeffrey rosen will testify. then on thursday the focus will be on the pressure campaign. on former vice president mike pence. to actually get him to overturn the 2020 election results. next week we're expecting a hearing to take place on tuesday the 21st focusing on the pressure campaign at the state level. with testimony from georgia secretary of state brad raffensperger, the times and dates of the final two hearings have not yet been released and it is important to note that the hearing dates, times and witnesses still could change. they're still talking to people. they're still doing work behind the scenes. >> still talking to people. and we have been saying for quite sometime, what is so fascinating about this is, it is

been downplayed by donald trump, by donald trump stooges, and but you know -- >> but not under oath but not under oath. >> jonathan lemire, we've been saying for quite sometime it is fascinating because we're going inside of the white house. we're going to hear from people closest to donald trump, people that were there on january 6. jonathan, are you there? can you see you? great. so we'll see people that were there. and this is what is so important, because what we'll hear today is from people on the inside. from trumpers. that donald trump knew he was lying. >> yeah. >> well you say of course donald trump knew he was lying. what is the big deal about that. maybe someone in the justice department might find it fascinating that there was evidence that you knew all along that it wasn't a rigged election and he was lying to raise hundreds of millions of dollars. there could be some legal consequences to that.

>> no question being watched intently at main justice today. joe, it is right to dismiss the hearings by republicans if it was just one democrat after another or one government official after another, but these are republicans. these are some of donald trump's closest allies and we know some of them refuse to cooperate. although in the case of mark meadows, he ended up cooperating anyway because his phone got turns over and we've read his text messages and there have been other aides who have spoken. and ivanka trump taped was played and took the word of bill barr when he didn't see any evidence of widespread election fraud. and that sent her father off in a rage and calling her out on his truth social twitter alternative last week. so we'll see more of that today. and bill stepian is a name we've come back to. he used to work for new jersey governor chris christie.

he got himselfen snarled in the gate -- and became the manager after brad parscale was pushed out. and he was there the weeks after. he largely had left the trump orbit by january 6. and per reporting had indicated that he knew that they had lost and that the president knew it too. so that is why even if he comes there and as he's compelled to testify by subpoena, a lot people will watch what he has to say today as the committee builds the narrative of what happened on january 6. >> so legal question, joe. if trump, if you have all of his senior adviser going on the record one after another saying we told him this was b.s. and told him he lost, but then trump said, well, i believed i won. is that -- i mean, can he sort of hide in what he didn't say? >> well you've got people who

are convicted of things they deny all of the time. and so that is what is so fascinating again. just the overwhelming weight of the evidence is, if we hear from one trumper after another trumper, after another trumper, inside of the trump white house, saying oh, he knew. he knew for quite sometime. and you have people like chris christie saying the same thing. he knew. he knew all along. and he was lying about it six month as head of time because as chris christie said, you knew he was going to lose so he was trying to build up the conspiracy theory. so get more about what we're going to see, let's bring in garrett haake. nbc's senior capitol hill correspondent. garrett, take us through what we're going to hear today. >> well, joe, you talked about bill stepian who is super interesting and no idea of a secret rino republican. he's working for liz cheney's

political opponent and lisa murkoyski in alaska. he could be a more effective witness to that constituency which is part of the appeal. the other person that i'm interest rated to hear from is stirewalt. he was the fox news political editor and in responsible for making that call on election night that fox made before anybody else that joe biden had won arizona. now the tv news nerd in me is particularly interested in this because the way these are supposed to work, they're sealed off and meant to be impervious to outside. he tried to change it and slow it down. what he has to say will be very important and then in the second panel, ben ginsburg, he's been the republican lawyer on vote counting issues on election issues going back to the second

bush administration. he's been in this game forever and he could explain how legal clalgs work to election results. if you want to sue or take a case to the courts, up to the supreme court, he's been there and he could talk about the difference what the trump folks did and how these things are supposed to be legally done if you want to challenge election results. and then there is b jay pac. and he's kind of a bridge to one of the next week hearings because his focus was down in georgia where he was a u.s. attorney and the pressure campaign on him to come up with fraud-based information will be part of this hearing. and it will be a whole topic of this state-based pressure campaigns that we're going to hear about next week. so if thursday night's hearing was kind of the appetizer, the over view, this is a much deeper dive. on the the first point the committee has to prove was that it wasn't just a one-day event, it was a month's long campaign and this is how it starts. >> tell me about the fox news

producer. i understand that he caught a lot of guff for telling the -- for rightly predicting that arizona was going for joe biden. but how does that play into a january 6 investigation? >> well this is about the data that was available to all of the professionals here who were looking at this campaign. i mean we all lived it in time. the idea of kind of knowing the election was over as we were watching the results come in, and some of the key states, knowing what the data said and knowing what donald trump was saying. so remember, on election night, about 2:00 in the morning, the next day when trump came out and said actually we won, the idea that the committee wants to present is that every inside adviser, like bill stepian or outside expert who the trump campaign is listening to, the folks on fox news knew this was over or going to be over even when the president was coming out and lying about the fact that he still won. so i think they're trying to sort of twin those narratives

together to say, there is no basis for the president's statement to come out and claim victory as they kind of set the predicate for through ho lie then infected the whole republican political establishment going forward. >> and garrett, we just got some breaking news. bill stepian is saying he will not be able to attend because of a family emergency. so i'll let you get working on that in just one moment. we have another quick question for you. >> another big story here on capitol hill. a potential break through on gun safety after decades of inaction from washington. there appears to be some movement. key senate negotiators yesterday announced a framework on a series of measures just three weeks after the mass shooting in uvalde, texas, and buffalo, new york. a centerpiece of the deal is to provide substantial resources for states to implement red flag laws. allowing individuals like police

or family members to petition courts to keep firearms away from people deemed a risk to them sfz or others. the proposal does not include a total ban on assault weapons. it also does not include raising the minimum age to buy an assault weapon. and a group of ten democrats and ten republicans signed a joints statement backing the framework but sources familiar with the negotiations say that the final bill has not yet been written, does what has been agreed upon have the potential to change, garrett? >> i think it is possible. particularly around the background checks. the reason why is what they're true iing to do is set up a individual, an 18-year-olds tried to buy a weapon, it will trigger a review, by law enforcement or the federal nix system to look back into their juvenile records or check in with local law enforcement to

see if there is anything here that we should be aware of it. the problem is every state handles juvenile records differently on that issue, how the bill gets written could be a little bit different or perhaps a little bit broader than what the framework agrees to. that is the single stickiest part of this. as you try to turn a broad agreement, you can't take it to the floor until text could get a vote. >> yeah, these things are hard to agree on because they involve a lot of details and personal and private records and who gets to see them. nbc news senior capitol hill correspondent garrett haake, thank you so much. we appreciate it. and we have more -- just ahead on today's january 6 committee public hearing, the second public hearings. we'll talk about what to expect and take you there as soon as it begins. plus markets are set to open after a bad week on wall street. with inflation still top of mind for many americans. >> probably going to be another

bad week. >> andrew ross sorkin and eugene daniels will join us to discuss. the fda has announced that small doses of pfizer covid-19 vaccine appears to be safe and effective for children under the age of five. it comes as an outgroup of experts are deciding whether the shot is ready for the 18 million babies and toddlers and children under 5 years old. the only group not yet eligible for the covid vaccination in the country. we'll be right back. y. we'll be right back. aire could e enjoying chocolate cake. now, she can have her cake and eat it too. nexium 24hr stops acid before it starts for all-day, all-night protection. can you imagine 24 hours without heartburn?

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it comes after we learned consumer prices jumped 8.6% compared to this time last year. signaling inflation isn't going away any time soon. that is ramping up pressure on president biden to act. in any way he can. with the president blaming the war in ukraine as the single biggest cause of high prices. the white house released this three step plan over the weekend to fight inflation. joining us now, political white house reporter and "morning joe" senior contributor eugene daniels and also with us from "the new york times" and co-anchor of cnbc squawk box, andrew ross sorkin. eugene, what could you tell bus this three-pronged plan coming from the white house. >> so this white house sees inflation as its domestic issue, the biggest issue they have. and it just is. when you talk to anyone in the country, voters, whether you

talk to members of congress, lobbyists, members of people who work at white house, are talking about rising prices, they're constantly talking about how expensive gas is, how expensive milk is at their grocery stores. so what the administration is hoping to do, especially this month. was kind of push with a huge messaging push, so one, explain why prices are where they are, and for the white house, explain why and what they plan on doing for those issues. so these three-prong plan and that the president has talked about is bringing down the deficit, and focusing on that. kind of allowing the fed to do whatever it needs to do and stay independent, that is something that they said was very important to them. and the president because of the trump administration where you constantly saw then president trump kind of attacking the fed. but then also reducing costs for americans. and so that is childcare, that is health care, what is

interesting on last point, that is what congress was planning on doing with the build back better agenda that they had planned to do at the end of the last year. there halloween been much move on that from that issue. i was at a briefing with a couple of reporters and a senior administration official on the economics side on friday and i asked them, i said, one of the things that about childcare for example, that doesn't seem like it is on the table for you when the build back better agenda, if it were could come back. joe manchin said that is a nonstarter. but that is something very difficult. and you see what this administration on inflation, one of the reasons that i think they're having such an issue with the messages is that at the beginning they tried to explain it away as transtory and that hasn't been the case. there was talk about whether we'd hit peak inflation and that is not the case and now they're figuring out how they could

explain to the american people that is what we're doing because we know, they know, there is not a lot of that the white house can do on this issue. so there is concerns about the political aspect of this as we head into the midterms. but also the larger implications for the entire rest of this term before this white house and the kinds of things that they're able to do because if people feel, because this is how about how people feel, they feel everything is expensive, because it is. if there is no hope for how much money they could spend on their families. they're not going to vote for you. >> no doubt about it. eugene daniels, thank you so much. and andrew, when i see a three point plan on how they're going to curve 8.6% inflation when you have two years of pent up demand and you have a war raging on in russia and ukraine that is influencing food and energy prices. and you've got of course supply

chain problems and still the specter of china coming on and pushing that demand up even higher. i have to laugh. there are a few things they could do with the margin, but what the hell can the president or congress do? >> right. this is the ultimate problem. there is very little they could do and what will happen over the next couple of months and we're see it today, if the federal reserve doesn't what it is supposed to be doing, which is increasing interest rates to try to tamp down inflation, what are you going to see? you're going to see a lower stock market. so you'll see headlines that show red on the screen. what are you going to see? you might eventually see lower housing prices. we haven't gotten there yet. but the question is do all of those lower prices flow through to lower prices at the gas pump and the grocery store. and it may not happen that way. it may be that you see the stock

market fall first and then the housing market fall and then you see things like gas and other things come down. so, it is going to be a bit of a slow motion situation if they have success, and that success, that is the hardest part to think about, which is success is a lower stock market and a lower housing market and yes, success is lower gas prices and food. but it is going to take a very long time and most of the things that will happen as a federal reserve, not the white house and it is hard from a messaging perspective to say it is not us, it is those guys over there and they're doing their job and it looks worse, at least temporarily. >> yeah. and of course, mika, what president -- the president that said, yes, i forced fed to jack up your interest rates because that is -- >> and make it harder for everybody. >> but that is difficult as well. but this is a problem that we're facing here in the united states. this is a problem that policy makers are facing all over the

world. you have great britain, higher inflation rates from the netherlands to poland, so this is a global -- >> i think joe biden needs to give the people a lesson in what is going on with the global economy. the white house coming out last friday on our show saying this is our number one priority. you can't do anything about your number one priority. if you could do something about your number one priority, make it your number one priority. but there are things that you can't do and i think you're giving the republicans just obviously a great bull's eye on this issue if you plan to take it on as your top priority. >> andrew, this requires an explainer, doesn't it. this requires a president to say, okay, listen, not only is it the war, it is certainly the war and this percentage of the war. >> the situation in china. >> it is the situation in china. we have massive supply chain problems because china shut down their economy.

we have $2 trillion that was setting on the side lines after a couple of years of covid. all of these have added, including, yes, too much spending on the democrats' part and too much spending on the republicans' part and invite some republicans in to talk about -- >> give us your solutions and give us how you're going to cure inflation in three easy steps. >> maybe do you invite the republicans in because they don't have a better answer either. but does the voter come this midterm and then you have to think about two years later, does the voter say i'm going to give you a pass on all of this. i know your hands were tied or do they blame you anyway and that is the hardest part about this. >> so andrew, we wanted to you weigh in on this story from the "wall street journal." the lawyers investigating facebook chief operating officer sheryl sandberg use of corporate resources are examining behavior going back several years said people familiar with the matter.

focusing on the extent to which staffers worked on her personal projects. the review, which has been going since laugh fall, included an examination of the work facebook employees did to support her foundation, that is a lean in, as well as the writing and promotion of her second book. according to the paper, sandberg announced last week she was resigning from her day-to-day role with the social media giant after 14 years. a meta, that is what they call themselves now, a spokesperson declined to comment to the "wall street journal" about this. what is going on there, andrew? >> i think what is going on here is the knives are out. clearly internally and there are people there who are not going to let her leave and leave quietly. in terms of the news specifically related to this investigation from the reporting that i've done, it all relates to the book that she's worked on. various personal projects where at sp point along the line,

either p.r. people were brought in to ask questions about, you know, you're going to be doing a book tour, should the p.r. people at facebook and meta have gotten involved in that. she has a wedding coming up this summer. there is issues around security and again p.r. and things like that. and in those cases there were issues or maybe even travel. but the question is, whether that is inappropriate or not. so much of her own reputation for better or worse has been intertwined with the company that is meta. so if you're going out and doing public touring or having a wedding that will get published in newspapers and magazines, should be the p.r. department and security be involved in that. so these are the questions. i don't think we know enough about the specifics of what this investigation entails. >> well if that is it, then you and i -- you and i know the

answer to that already. which is, if we have a book that is coming out, there are people at nbc, they're saying -- let me see this about this book. >> absolutely. >> what press are you going to do for this book. and whether we want them in or not, they bring in the p.r. people. they bring in the other people. >> to make sure it is up to standards. >> and they'll always say, we have an investment in you. so we're going to be involved. >> absolutely. >> so if it is just that, it sounds like the long knives are out. and by the way, who in the world leaked it to "wall street journal" from inside of the company. you know. >> it's -- that is what i said, the knives are out. it is a fascinating one and we have to find out more details. there is an appropriate version of this. which is exactly the one that you just described. maybe there is a lesser appropriate version. i don't know if terms of what kind of work was being asked to be done. but clearly that is what is

going to be part of this. i should say, sheryl sandberg spokesperson telling the "wall street journal" that her decision to depart the company is what they say is unrelated to this inquiry. >> okay, andrew ross sorkin thank you for coming on this morning. coming up, back to the breaking news just moments ago. we learned that trump's former campaign manager bill stepian will now not be testifying this morning due to a family emergency. the hearing has also been delayed. now starting at 10:30 a.m. plus new -- >> by the way, everything is all with bill. it had to be obviously significant. >> plus new legal troubles for former president trump's inner circle. we'll tell you about the brand-new ethics complaint against rudy giuliani. and why one editorial board is arguing that taking down donald trump politically could be a good thing for republican

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rudy giuliani's trump's primary lawyer during the failed efforts to overturn the 2020 election is now facing ethics charges from the washington, d.c. bar association. the office of disciplinary council filed charges against the former prosecutor alleging he promoted baseless claims in federal court filings about the results of the 2020 presidential election in pennsylvania. giuliani has 20 days to respond to the matter. the charges could lead to the suspension of his law license or disbarment. a lawyer for giuliani did not have an immediate comment to this. it comes a year after he was suspended from law practice in both washington, d.c. and new york. over the weekend, two rupert murdoch owned newspapers took on the former president trump for his role in the january 6 insurrection.

the "wall street journal" editor ol board writes in part, the president spread falsehoods about the election. he invited supporters to washington on january 6th, tweeting on december 19th that it will be wild. he riled up the crowd and urged this to march on the capitol. after the violence began, he dotaled. instead of sending help. he beared responsibility for the mayhem but inspiring followers to march is not the same as leading a criminal conspiracy. meanwhile, a similar op-ed in the new york post, trump can't admit his tweeting and narcism turned off millions. he won't stop insisting that the 2020 election was stolen eve though he suffered no proof that it is true. respected officials like former attorney bill barr call his rants nonsense. this is not just about liz

cheney. betsy devos and mark meadows knew trump as illusional. and his daughter and son-in-law testified it was bull. we are seeing republicans try to distance themselves from the former president while at the same time downplaying the january 6 hearing. that is a line toed but asa hutchinson. over the weekend on fox news. >> you could make the case that -- and i would agree that he's politically, morally responsible for much of what has happened. but in terms of criminal liability, i think the committee has a long way to go before they could establish that. >> in its latest editorial entitled the january 6 committee might do the republicans a favor, the pittsburgh post-gazette editorial board writes in part, sad as lb in public, the committee taking down the former president would be a win-win for republican leadership. they'll have a party reshaped by

mr. trump and in a large and committed base of voters. they could pitch the party as offering a kinder, calmer trumpism. they'll be able to turn the much younger politicians for leadership, the party can move on. they won't do it themselves, but the democrat dominated committee might do it for them. >> fascinating stuff. >> yeah, it is. >> and mika, you've discussed, you've discussed some of this off air. >> yeah. >> about the murdoch newspapers. >> oh, yeah. and well and fox news. there is different efforts i think to get behind other people that are trumpy like. trumpy like. >> we've heard this from murdoch owned company, jonathan, lemire, let me differentiate from what we just read here, though. the "wall street journal" editor ol page has for the most part, even though i've been very critical of some of the things

they've sort of brushed away, they have been consistent on this stolen election nonsense. they have kept their head down and played that one down the middle on most of the editorials that we've read on "morning joe." the new york post piling on. i mean it is fascinating. what mika and i have have people inside organizations suggest is and starting to suggest it a couple of months ago, that murdoch, the family just had enough of trump and they're ready to back ron desantis and for people that don't understand how the murdochs play game, of course many people were shocked when rupert murdoch decided he would pack tony blair before tony blair wiped out the stories. so you're starting to see movie here. there was movement with the new york post. first attacking trump and then

moving toward him in 2015, 2016. it looks like they're going in the other direction now. and for the record, the new york post, what is it? it is the official paper. it is a paper of record of "morning joe." but go ahead. >> it is here on my desk, joe. >> of course it is. >> it is worth flashing back for a moment to know that rupert murdoch was hostile to president trump back in 2015. it was roger ales who pushed for it and murdoch came around when it looked like he would be the nominee. but it is interesting to see some cracks here. and certainly we've heard from the "wall street journal" board, the push for republicans to look forward, to stop relitigating 2020 and that is what trump is interesting in doing. so that is interesting. we'll have to watch this as it plays out in the months ahead. but i want to give you breaking news. a few moments ago, bill stepian is no longer appearing today.

the family emergency, his wife is in labor. so that is why. >> okay. >> that is why he will not be appearing today. >> he better not be appearing today. good luck to him and the family. >> it is unclear whether he will make an appearance later at another hearing. for the moment, his attorney will read a statement into the record from stepian. >> thank you. let hope everything goes well. >> exciting news. >> we'll go back to capitol hill where lawmakers will be arriving in a few moments for the january 6 hearing which is set to kick off in the next hour. some changes in the programming. we'll also bring in a former u.s. attorney who has insight into one of today's witnesses. we'll be right back. welcome to allstate. where everyone saves when they bundle their home and auto insurance. isn't that right, frank?

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breaking news, the dow jones industrial down right now 632 points. it has dropped as much as 762 points. also the s&p has fallen into bear market territory. 20% drop since january. obviously a lot of people selling this morning because the fears of inflation just keep going. so we'll see what happens. now when you see 613 points, that is obviously some massive numbers. but the important number to look at is to your left, there is a time when if you told somebody the dow was down 624 points would you hear windows open up but when you have a market over 30,000, it is till under a 2% drop for the day. that does happen. but again, everything is going in the wrong direction over the past several days the market has been open because we have red hot inflation and the really is

no reason to believe that inflation is going to drop any time soon. >> all right. the select committee investigating the january 6 attack on the capitol will gavel in, in the second hearing in less than an hour. it will question four key witnesses including a former fox news editor who called trump's loss and also a former u.s. attorney who resigned instead of going along with lies about election fraud. we learned just moments ago that president trump's former campaign manager who was in charge on election day will not be testifying any more today because his wife went into labor earlier this morning. the committee plans to show video of his deposition with them instead. joining us now, a former attorney and now a legal analyst, joyce vance, "new york times" reporter and msnbc national security analyst michael schmidt and former spokesperson for the house oversight committee kurt bardella, an adviser to the dnc

and the dccc. good to have you on board this morning. >> joyce, as i told people when i first ran, when they were yelling at me, they said you're a lawyer, but i'm a really a good lawyer. so that is why we have you on. so you could answer questions that good lawyers could answer. we're going to hear that donald trump knew all along this election big lie was false, that he knew he was lying, that he had not convinced himself other wise. he knew it was a lie at the same time he used that lie to go out and raise hundreds of millions of dollars from dupes, people that followed him. so the question is, a good lawyer to bad lawyer, is that like wire fraud, is that -- when you lie deliberately lie to raise money, you spread that lie to other people, is that something that the justice department should be looking at? >> what is the crime?

>> well, i'm pret sure that as two bad lawyers we could manage to sort this one out. there is a lot of different possible crimes here. and it is an important point to make. that prosecutors have discretion when they charge crimes. they could look for instance at what sentences are and what the elements of proof are. but the crimes hear that jump out at you, are the conspiracy crimes. conspiracy to interfere with congress. conspiracy to interfere with the election. conspiracy to defraud the government. those charges are relatively powerful. and they don't require successful completion of the crime. fortunately, for all of us, trump didn't pull off the coup. but we could still charge it through that vehicle of conspiracy. so you're right that today is all about the big lie. and specifically what i'm looking for is whether congress has evidence that could prove that trump knew it was a big lie. just like we all know it was. and they don't even need direct evidence. they don't have to have it

coming out of his own mouth. they would show willful blindness and that trump should have known that he probably knew but he stuck his head in the sand to avoid the knowledge. that is where the witnesses today will be so powerful. and they will complete this elements of willful blindness. >> michael schmidt, what are you looking for today. >>? on the question of the fraud, the committee has -- it is greatest challenge it has faced is obviously trying to cleave donald trump off from his base and get the base to basically, you know, look at january 6 in a different way than they have. and in that area, the committee has long thought that in terms of the fundraising issue, and the raising the money off of stop the steal, they thought they might have a chance at making an argument to republicans and trump supporters that they're money had been

stolen from them. that, the campaign knew that the election had not been stolen but nevertheless republicans moved forward with a massive fundraising effort around that, raising tens of millions of dollars, and that if you one of the issues they may do

that on would be related to this fund raising. was this part of a larger conspiracy? a fraud where they knew at the heart was a falsehood, yet they raised the money? so there's sort of two avenues off of that issue where the committee hopes to push things forward. >> let's look back for one second at the last hearing. you and i have heard from a lot of people suggesting that this january 6th committee has failed time and time again. i don't know. perhaps i may be critical. several months back about them not being aggressive enough, but you look at the numbers and you look at the 20 million people that watched this. they did something right. again, it's not about ratings. it's about whether they're connecting with the american people and we have almost twice the audience that the final game of the world series had last year. almost twice the audience of the

nba finals. almost four times the audience and survivor from this past week. i mean, they're doing something right to connect with the american people. what's your takeaway? >> they sure are. what we saw with the first hearing on thursday was a master class in showmanship married with substance, with compelling testimony. clearly, the american people have responded. the committee has told me they did care who tuned in and the number. that's what gives them the license to continue going on. they've announced six or seven hearings for june. there's a possibility this will not continue on for the summer. they are expecting people to come forward and talk to the committee that haven't based on seeing how these proceedings are going, given depositions and agreed to testify. this is going to continue on and it's important people tune in. it's important they have those numbers and they are very cognizant of the fact that the

optics do matter. they are choreographed these proceedings to make sure they meet this moment and what we saw thursday was them doing that. i've been this critical, too, about how aggressive this committee has been, the pace of the investigation. they showed on thursday they know what they're doing and they have a plan and blueprint and they are following it. >> they did. they knew exactly what they were doing. joyce vance also testifying today. talk about the potential significance of his testimony. >> it's fascinating to me that the trump presidency was bookended by firing two u.s. attorneys in the north district of georgia. of course, sally yates and bj pack on january 4th. pack may not have been technically fired, but was told if he didn't leave, he would be

fired. and the significance of his testimony is twofold. he was the u.s. attorney who refused to investigate fraud. trump called him a never trumper u.s. attorney when he had his infamous phone call with brad raffensperger. he spent six years in the georgia ledge is. it wasn't that pack said he had investigated the election and found no fraud. he said there wasn't even sufficient indish of mismanagement or misconduct of the election to open an investigation and he was fired for doing that. so i think that feeds into the big line there in a very significant way. trump knew that was his u.s. attorney on the spot believed but continued ahead with the big lie. also, pack and his family were

subjected to threats of violence after trump attacked him. we think commonly violence didn't take place until january 6th when we saw the mob rush the capitol, but in reality, these threats were going to build earlier and pack may well testify to some of that. >> so, michael schmidt, i want to get your response to adam schiff who said he believes that by the time these hearings have concluded, there would be enough evidence to have a criminal charge filed against former president trump. what would it take for that to actually happen in terms of the department of justice, but also the politics of the moment? >> so in a sense, congress' opinion of whether charges can be filed matters a lot and matters none at all. in terms of putting public pressure on the justice department, it means a lot because what, if schiff is saying that then that means that the democratic base is going to believe that and that they will be, there will be pressure on

the department because of that. the department will say look, we're going to make decisions based on the facts that doesn't matter. but the atmospheres are always something weighing on the justice department no matter what it says. at the same time, it doesn't matter because the congress has no say in whether the charges are broad. the justice department has to look at the law and see if it meets all of the various different elements to bring such a charge. one of the biggest questions around that is whether they can prove that trump knew that he had lost but instead went forward with the effort to overturn it. not simply that he thought in his mind he won and was just trying to get to the place of where you know, he thought he had his victory. so that is a big legal question that a lot of people say. the committee has said trump's mindset doesn't really matter.

that he was told so many times that he should have known that he did lose it regardless of whether he thought he lost it or he didn't. so schiff's opinion matters, but it doesn't matter. and the question going forward is a lot of democrats have been critical of merrick garland. so does that continue to feed that if they feel garland is not doing anything. >> we will leave it right there. michael, joyce, kurt, thank you all very much. we'll be watching this morning. that does it for us this morning. we'll see you tomorrow. andrea mitchell and katy tur will pick up msnbc's special coverage of the january 6th hearing in two minutes. 6th hearing in two minutes than just an investor you're an owner. that means that your goals are ours too. and vanguard retirement tools and advice can help you get there. that's the value of ownership. about two years ago i realized that jade was overweight. i wish i would have introduced the fresh food a lot sooner.

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people may think their contracture has to be severe to be treated, but it doesn't. visit findahandspecialist.com today to get started. good morning. i'm joined by katy tur in new york. ahead of the second public hearing today from the january 6th select committee that is now scrambling as a result of the breaking news we've just learned in the last hour. the key lead off witness, bill stepian, donald trump's 2020 campaign manager, will not be appearing to testify in person today. alerting the committee after his wife went into labor. sources tell nbc the committee now plans to show video from