interrupt you but we want to go to ali vitt tally who has congressman schiff. >> hi, guys. we're live with congressman schiff. you saw and were a part of what happened in that hearing room. talk about the connection that you made between the willful ignoing of the facts that the former president was given by tom aids and then what we heard from rioters here on the day of the insurrection that they came because they felt their votes in the election was stolen from them. >> i think that the hearing outlined very clearly how even before the election donald trump was out there telling the country something that he was told was not true. he knew it was not true. that is that if he lost, the election would be somehow rigged. folks counted after election day when all the absentees were coming in would somehow be suspect. he's laying the foundation for that big lie. after the election, he's advised by his people not to go out and

declare victory. they needed time for the votes to come in. disregards what they say. and then just continue with a big lie. even when his attorney general told him it was bs. when other senior members of the justice department said there was no merit to the fraud allegations. the u.s. attorney in georgia looked into other allegations and said they were without merit. he's told over and over again this is just not true. but he continues with it. and they raise money off the big lie. anger and motivate people to show up on the 6th around the big lie. and those people he insights to attack the capitol. and it's a pretty clear linear progress of that big lie from beginning to end. >> i think there's a question here about accountability that you and i have talked about

before. the idea of clearly drying a line between the former president and what happened on this day. you don't have the ability to bring criminal proceedings, but you could make criminal referrals. what's your message to the justice department as they are watch the second of these hearings and we have several more weeks to go? >> we have done and are doing a vigorous investigation to find the full facts and follow the facts where they lead and then share those facts with the american people. the justice department, they need to be doing their own investigation. they clearly are investigating many of the people who attacked the capitol on january 6th. and those who organize or fund ed them, but as our committee has been demonstrating, there were multiple lines of effort to overturn the election as the judge in california has said, some of those lines of effort likely involved criminal activity on the part of the president. that needs to be investigated by justice as well. >> you think the department of justice should be investigating the former president for his role here?

>> i think the justice department should be investigating anyone, including former presidents, if there's credible fd they engaged in criminal activity. and here we have a federal judge based on a limited set of evidence saying he believes multiple federal laws were broken. but our job is principally to share the facts of the american people and make recommendations about how to protect the country going forward. >> thank you. i appreciate your time. and i will toss it back to you. >> thank you very much. so frank, i want to get you to finish your thought, but i also want to get you to react to congressman schiff there saying that he thinks doj should prosecute anybody or charge anybody who is involved in criminal activity. >> yeah, just to finish up the last thought first. this repeated production of evidence that shows that the president was told by all of his experts there's no fraud here is not just a legal strategy.

it's a counterradicalization strategy. it's exposure to the truth repeatedly that can help people come out of the rabbit hole that they are in. i note that for whatever reason today fox news seems to be airing the hearing. that's a good thing if people are listening to the facts today. with regards to congressman schiff's comments, i also share the sentiment that justice is the first name of the justice department. they are about justice. not just justice for some people, but justice for all people if the evidence is there. now i'll excoat a comment said earlier. i still need to see evidence from people who were in the room or communicaing with the president so we hear his own words instead of people saying i told him this. i now next want to hear and he said this to me. we need to hear that repeatedly, particularly if we're going to

ask doj what will be a difficult thing for them to do. we need to get over that hurdle. >> yeah. let's bring in a former white house chief of staff, from watching today, the testimony from bill barr on tape, the president of the united states was really disconnected from reality he was not listening to them even though they had warned him before the election in the summer of 2020 that the election day vote would favor republicans as it has for 40 years since mail-in balloting has taken place. but the mail-in ballot would favor democrats. ask then on election night and the morning after and the early hours of the morning, he should not be declaring victory and instead chose to listen to a clearly any rudy giuliani.

>> if you're a candidate, you're going to be listening to your campaign manager, to the data experts, to the people who really foe what's going on in the field or analyzing in realtime and they were all telling him, guess what, you're losing this chase. and indeed, he lost the popular vote by 7 million votes. he lost every one of the states that he tried to test. but as bill noted, he decided to listen to team crazy not because they they provided an alternative analysis that anybody would buy, but that's what he wanted to do to cling to power. to hold on to the outcome. and i think this committee has done an excellent job of actually marshaling the facts to show that january 6th wasn't just some spontaneous outburst from a protrump crowd, but was built step by step through the 7 streams that the committee is

unpacking. and this quite frankly the republican party is now defending as a legitimate exercise of civil discourse, they built towards what was really a complete assault on our democracy. >> i just want to point out for anyone who remembers 2016, i know you do so vividly at a around ii in the morning, you came in and you were talking and trying to reassure the advisers or rather the staff trying because it was going to donald trump over hillary clinton. and you told them to wait until morning and just minutes later the candidate herself conceded buzz she saw the numbers and was not going to try to prolong it and was obviously a very different outcome than many people had expected.

>> indeed. with numbers even closer in the critical states of wisconsin, pennsylvania and michigan, i think it was clear to us, clear to the people who were looking at the vote counts, searching for votes, wepted to wait until all the votes were in. that was the president's right on election night as well. but all the votes were coming in and it was clear and even fox at one point declared as mr. star testified that he had lost the critical states of arizona, georgia, of those upper midwest states. they knew it, he knew it, he chose not to act on it. and instead, to act in a way no other president in the history of our republic has acted, which has tried to cling to power and probably the sound byte of the day comes from an opinion from earlier this spring from judge carter, which was this was a coup in search of a legal

theory. >> let's go back to that moment from earlier in the hearings today, which tauld about who donald trump was listening to on the night of the election. i want to play a sound pooit about what he was pg told and where he instead went. >> the mayor was kpox indicated, but i do not know his level of intoxication when he spoke with the president, for example. >> it was far too early to be making any calls like that. ballots were still being counted and would still be counted for days. >> i don't know i had a firm view as to what he should say in that circumstance. the results were still being counted. it was becoming clear that the race would not be called on election night. >> my belief, my recommendation

was to say that votes were still being counted. it's too early to tell, too early to call the race. >> did anybody disagree with your message? >> yes. >> who was that? >> the president disagreed with that. >> this is a fraud on the american public. this is an embarrassment to our country. we were getting ready to win this election. frankly, we did win this election. >> so you can see he listened to rudy giuliani. what to you think of that as somebody in the position of telling their candidate they lost? >> the big lie started on election night, probably before election night because he was getting supporters ready for the bauz the campaign knew they were going into the election with the likely outcome that joe biden

would get elected president. it was being confirmed as the votes were coming in. he was clear he was going to win the midwest states that i mention the. and it was looking in states that people thought would probably last in trump's college, but didn't. and i think that it's up to people to tell the president the truth. and for the president to tell the american people the truth. some of his advisers did that. many of his advisers failed. the president certainly failed when he lie a about the results to the american public. and led to what occurred on january 6th and is still going on. this kind of extreme maga view that the election was stolen has taken root in the republican party. they are living in a kind of conspiracy world. they are trying to do everything they can to make sure that the

next time around that they pack the people who are supposed to be independent county elections with people who are favorable to trump. if he dos again, if he runs again and loses again, there will be people around to agree with him and declare him the winner. it's a very dangerous situation for the country. i think the committee is doing a very good job of laying that out. and today you had an all-republican line up, essentially making the case that the committee made on thursday night last week. >> given what you have just said, is it more important for democrats now after this hearing to focus more on trying to get the votes to change the electoral count law, the 1870 law to permit secretaries of state and other trump maga influencers to change enough states in 20234, isn't that the most important thing beyond any

accountability and legal retribution for the players from 2020? >> let's take first things first. that's a critical thing that must be done this year. there are republicans who support that approach. whether there are ten of them in the senate that will vote for that over the wishes of donald trump remains to be seen, but democrats should do everything they can to get that passed. that doesn't take anything away from what the committee is doing, which is telling the story in a very compelling way, laying out the facts, laying out the documents, putting people on the records through deposition, these are people who remain friendly to donald trump and yet, they undermine the very case he's making to the american people. bill steppen is running the campaign in wyoming. but that doesn't mean that when

he's put under oath, he doesn't have to admit what he told the president was completely inconsistent with what the president then went out and told the american people. >> i think it is striking to hear a lot of these campaign aids, these lawyers under oath as opposed to hearing them as they are politicking. john, thank you very much for being with us. i want to ask about bill bah, but i know you want to talk about rudy giuliani and his advice the night of election night. >> it was really striking because you see this in a hearing and they are building the case that donald trump is isolated. he's gotten this information from everyone, that he knows he's lost and he's pushing forward. then they say he, quote, finds the one person on this team but they pair that with this rather damning, and i'm sure

potentially offensive insinuation that he was intoxicated at work, on the job. what he does in his personal life is nobody's business, but they are saying pursuant to stealing the election at work at the white house discussing election nights, that he is basically highly intoxicated. we're art familiar with the concept of beer goggles. the argument here basically coming from the committee is that you would need beer goggles to even see trump's legal and election case as a at all possible. that you had to have this kind of legal beer goggles to think this could go anywhere. so you have the idea of the sane or, if i may, sober-minded analysts, many of them life-long republicans saying there's no way to win. and it was only through mr. trump, they say, then president trump's elicit intent of lying or what they cast as rudy giuliani's beer goggles that anyone could think there was a

path. >> you're saying what bill barr said. you would have to be detached from reality to plooef it, which is what he said about donald trump. if you really believes this stuff, he's lost contact with reality. so he says this that he's detached from reality and donald trump was doipg a disservice to the country and he told donald trump these claims were wrong, they are false, he lost the election. he resigns and yet in his resignation letter, even after he's dealt with all these false claims from the president and tells him he's doing a disservice to the country, he still praises the president. how do you square that? >> it's a great question that you raise. mr. barr is under oath, so he has some obligation to offer the truth. he knows that quite well as an attorney general. it's really striking to see that distinction. as you say, if it's a disservice

to the country. if it was bad enough to resign over, it you had genuine worries, then why did you -- i don't want to say mislead, but let's say why did you hide and minimize that without affirmatively lying about it at that time. at the very time the country needed that, we talk so much about that. they needed that leadership. mr. barr has great credentials in law and tolled on the right side of this political legal establishment. he could have used his voice then. >> ari are, thank you. we're going to sneak in a very quick break. don't go anywhere. our continuing coverage of the january 6th hearings will continue after a quick break. uek this... is the planning effect. this is how it feels to know you have a wealth plan that covers everything that's important to you. this is what it's like to have a dedicated fidelity advisor looking at your full financial picture. making sure you have the right balance of risk and reward. and helping you plan for future generations. this is "the planning effect" from fidelity.

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and free home delivery when you add a base. ends monday. minions let's do this thing. mini boss! mini boss! please stop calling me that. mini boss. mini boss. mini boss! uhh. mini boss! yoo-hoo, mini boss! one of the most significant moments in today's hearing, i thought, was when former attorney general bill barr explained how a month of the election, he was trying to repeatedly tell the president of the united states that in state after state, michigan,

pennsylvania, arizona, they had had not found any evidence of the kind of fraud that would change the outcome. let's watch that. >> then he raised the big vote dump, as he called it, in detroit, and he said people saw boxes coming into the counting station at all hours of the morning. so and i explained to him that at that point i knew the exact number of precincts i think it was 630 something. i said, there are 630 precincts in detroit. and unlike elsewhere, they centralize the counting process so they are not counted in each presixty and moved to counting stations, so the normal process would involve boxes at all different hours. and i said did anyone point out that all the people complaining a about it that you actually did better in detroit than you did last time.

there's no indication of fraud in detroit. and i told him that the stuff that his people were shuttling out to the public was bull. the claims of fraud were bull. and he was indignant a about that. and i reiterated they wasted a whole month on these claims on the dominion voting machines and they were idiotic claims. >> the president kept fixating on the suitcase that supposedly had fraudulent ballots and the suitcase was rolled out from under the table. and i said, no, there's no suitcase. you can watch that video over and over. there's a wheeled bin where they carried the ballots and that's just how they move ballots around that facility. >> katy, it was just so clear that in what joyce advance called willful denial, the

president was just ignoring all the evidence. >> the richard donnahue stuff at at the end there, we only played a portion of it, was really -- i would argue it was damning because he went in there and he said to the president, i'm looking up this claim of fraud that you told me to look up. it doesn't exist. the evidence doesn't support it. he said the president would say, okay, i understand that. what about this one? he would go to the next one he says the fd doesn't support it. then he would go to the next one. the evidence doesn't support that. we ran that down. he was getting nonsense from i don't know whom. he was bringing it to his lawyers and they were chasing these down. and again and again, this was no evidence of fraud. and let's go back once again. i'm repeating it over and over again, but it seemed like he did not want to know about the truth. he was willfully avoiding it. >> it was rudy giuliani and john eastman and sidney powell. joining us now is a member of

the select committee investigating january 6th. congresswoman stephanie murphy. congresswoman, do you believe that today's hearing with with bill stealthen was not in person but on video that today's hearing made the point of the big lie and the connection to how it completely misled the people who rioted on january 6th. >> first, congratulations to him and his family. what an exciting thing. but i think the video testimony does in conjunction with our lye witnesses and the other video testimony that we were able to provide does lay out the case for the fact that donald trump lost and he was told by his advisers, he was told by his lawyers, he was told by the local elected commissioners, he was told by everyone that he had

lost. and that none of the fraudulent election theories actually had any merit. and he refused to listen to that. and he went on to tell the american people that there was fraud in this election. and just imagine that. a sitting president undermining the integrity of our democracy. the integrity of our election all for personal gain. and that's incredibly damaging, and i think we laid out the case for that. >> you're laying out a case with donald trump at center. the question needs to be raised, are you trying in the panel to put some pressure on doj to press charges against the former president? >> that's not within the writ of the committee's purpose. our purpose is to lay out all of the facts and then provide legislative recommendations to secure our democracy. it's up to the american people to take in those facts and make a determination as to the character and the fitness of president trump for the office that he held.

and then the department of justice can also evaluate if there was any criminal wrong doing. that's their jurisdiction, not ours. >> and congresswoman murphy, how much frustration is there, though, with the the department of justice not pursing any kind of criminal subpoena referral that you had for the chief of staff, mark meadows, do you believe that they are actively investigating donald trump? >> while i am disappointed and surprised they did not pursue the subpoenas, i believe in an independent department of justice. i believe that's a core te nnt of the balance of powers that congress legislative branch and the courts and that was their decision. and i have to respect that.

>> going forward, you're painting why so many people went to the capitol on january 6th because they were led to believe that the the election was stolen from them. there are millions of people who believe this because the lie is still being repeated by the former president and prominent people on fox news. in the echo chambers, you're talking about legislative fixes to strength our democracy come next time. is that going to be enough when you have so many people who don't accept the same reality. >> i think it's important that we lay out the facts and try to reach as many people as possible. these people who believe in the big lie, who may have provided some of the personal money to support the big lie and facing sentences for coming to washington to act out on the big lie, they should feel duped by

the president who knew what he was staying to them was not true. he was told it was not true. but he was still using them for his personal gain. and my hope is that we can pierce that vail and they can see how they were used in this situation. and then the report will cover a lot of the other things we have uncovered in the investigation as well as to provide legislative recommendations. it is a step in the right direction. as a democracy, we have an obligation and a responsibility to do the best we can to secure our electoral processes and the integrity of our democracy. >> congresswoman murphy, thank you very much for being with us. our panel is back with us.

i want to get your thoughts on how persuasive or not this hearing was today. >> this was a keir hearing that showed trump's inner circle showing the president was told over and over again he lost the election. i thought it was really important to show how isolated former president trump was. he started off with this group of people, rudy giuliani, a.g. barr, a all these people that are supporting his bid to be reelected. one by one, they start to fade away. except for rudy giuliani. i was struck by the fact that bill in the video said the was worried this was not honest and professional. as a result, he had to leave. a a.g. barr said the beginning of the ordeal before the election he would listen to people argue and spar, but still listen. after the election, he became someone who would not listen to cabinet secretaries, who could

not have a conversation. this was prosecuting their case, using those closest to president trump. i also think it's interesting they previewed what officials are going to say because they play video of him saying i tried to explain directly to former president trump that the department of justice does not take sides in elections and also that we are not his personal legal team. something anyone wo covered president trump knew he really did see the department of justice as an extngs of his presidency and the people there to serve him. so it's a very interesting day. i also continue to wonder sort of whether or not all the evidence will change minds. i know there are millions and millions of americans watching. it's foing tb very interesting to see whether or not people in their different corners, whether or not they see this and say, this changes something for me. this changes something for me when a republican lawyer is saying there was no credible evidence, no evidence a at all that the election was

fraudulent. >> i want to play a little sound from the deposition where he talks about being on team normal. let's listen. >> i didn't mind being categorized. there was two groups of them. we called them my team and rudy's team. i didn't mind being characterized as pg part of team normal as reporters kind of started to do around that point in time. i said hours ago, early on, i have been doing this for a long time. 25 years. i have spanned political ideologies from trump to mccain to bush to christie. and i can work under a lot of circumstances for a lot of varied candidates and politicians, but the situation where i think i have built up a pretty good reputation for being

honest and professional and i didn't think what was happening was necessarily honest or professional at that point in time. so that led to me stepping away. >> so as the days went on, more people like bill stepped away more of the team normal either stepped away or were fired by donald trump. i guess team not normal remained around him. who was around the president right now? are they team normal folks or team not normal? >> it's a great question. the president is -- it's a mix in some ways if you think a about it. if you think about normal as being people who on the outside would be seen as established republicans, would think of them like team normal. kevin mccarthy, 22 days after the insurrection went down to take photos with former president trump. but for most critics, they would say this is team absolutely not normal. we have gone past not normal to what they would call ultramaga

and not living in reality. when you think about the fact that rudy giuliani was just coming up with all sorts of conspiracy theories and he's someone that the president is still talking about and still talking to. i think it's interesting what we saw was a a lie that metastasized and that was resilient. so part of that question when you say who was left in the room, you had a lie that began sort of by questioning whether or not the election was going to be rigged. then you had a lie that started off with i did win the election when i didn't. then you started off with then there was another part of this that records were telling president trump you lied. this is not true. this is a not a stolen election. it metastasized with the help of fundraising to a conservative movement of people that are, quote, not team normal, but are really laying into and leaning into what the former president is telling them, that the election was stolen. and we know it was not. >> joyce vance, if you could weigh in on what does doj need

to link the president to the people who marched on the capital? it's got to be more than a tweet. it's got to be more than a speech. a public election lie. >> it is. if we're talking about the seditious conspiracy part of this spire mess, i think that's what many people are questioning. will there come a point where the president is tagged not just with the john eastman effort to prevent the certification of the election, but with the actual violence, that will take a great deal of evidence. i haven't heard that yet from the committee. one suspects where doj is looking for that evidence is in the seditious conspiracy charges against the oath keepers and proud boys. they are continuing to work up the chain trying to convince some of those defendants to the cooperating witnesses and the question is whether that will ultimately lead them perhaps into the war room at the willard hotel to people like roger stone and whether there will be a

connection to the former president. but where the evidence of proving that he had knowledge he had lost the election today seemed to be really increasing, that knowledge and intent to insight the mob is still something we're looking for. >> so let's start looking ahead. the next hearing is going to circle around the president's plan to corrupt doj to get his way. and to pressure his vice president. >> yeah, corrupt is the right word because we're really into the world in terms of investigaions, fbi, doj, of public corruption. this is corruption a at the highest level. before i forget, i'm on record as being the first one to purr dhas the t-shirt saying team normal. that's coming online near you. but joyce is on to something. the investigators on this criminal matter, there are grand

juries sitting federally. they are going to need to get conclusive proof that comes from connecting trump to the violence, the extremist groups, knowing this is coming. those around him telling him this is coing. this is what the plan is. or, if we move away from the violence, let's go to the attempts to overturn election results with alternate slates of electors, which are called fabricated. let's put him in the seat driving that bus and doj is going to take it very seriously. >> thank you very much for being with us. we are going sneak in a quick break. do not go anywhere. our coverage of the january 6th hearings continues right after this. continues right after this a strategic and sustainable asset... the path is gilded with the potential for rich returns.

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far today. but as far as the impact, i don't know we can assess yet who is going to be swayed by this testimony today. one thing is clear. they wanted to drill down to the origins of the big lie. they want to show how the people who showed up the day of the insurrection were, in effect, regurgitating the big lie. these lies a about election fraud. they had heard from then president trump despite the president at the time knowing that that was not true. that was an effective presentation on that point from this committee laying out that the people close to the former president knew that what he was saying was wrong. and then the dichotomy between team normal and team rudy, frankly, and who he was listening to. a lot of this has been reported. our colleagues, people a at our networks and organizations that we have on this air to talk about this had laid out in broad strokes much of that in the cay tas after the election and after january 6th. what was so critical was seeing it in person, first person testimony from jared kushners

and ivanka trumps. that was something we hadn't seen before carried live across all the major networks. >> it wasn't just an anonymous source, but unnamed sources. it was here bill saying it in his own words. here's jason miller saying it in his own words. >> let's bring in jonathan allen. jonathan allen is senior national politics reporter and he is at ground zero of president trump's pushback against this committee, because he is in wyoming, where billstep yan is helping to manage a campaign to challenge try to defeat the republican primary. >> right now, if you zoom out from where i am in jackson hole, this is a really tough race for reelection that liz cheney has. the only polling we have seen put out has cheney down about 30

points. when you talk to chay niece' points they are unwilling to share their polling. here in jackson hole, you hear a lot of what you'd hear in big cities across the country, which is seeing liz cheney as a hero, someone doing her duty. this is a blue island in the middle of a red sea in wyoming. joe biden got 67% of the vote in the county where jackson hole is. he got 27% of the vote statewide. it would require her to dpet a lot of vote switchers. the democrats can switch to republican and vote in the republican primaries. we're hearing some folks are doing to do that. but it has to be a lot of them to help cheney win. >> john allen live for us there in wyoming. thank you very much. i want to bring in senior report er who is familiar to our viewers as covering all things

internet swamp related. brady, i wonder about what you heard today that stood out to you and what you can tell us about the conversations you're now seeing in some of the corners of the sbrnt that you report on from people in the far right about what we are watching in these hearings. >> thanks for having me. what stood out today was for me, it was learning from the internal team, his family, his campaign, his legal team, his advisers, they were doing what i and other members of the media were trying to do is track and debunk these lies. and the hearing today showed that internal investigations proved over and over again, like barr said, that this specific narratives were bogus, silly and based on complete misinformation. he called the internal work debunking these rumors like playing whack a mole. collectively, these things are effective. they leave this lasting

impression that there's some kind of fraud, even if you can't put finger on it. but these things really did come up in a handful or through a handful of his most unhinged supporters. you had far right wing blogs, people like giuliani and qanon lawyers. not that all trump knew it was debunked, behe should have noun. >> and when you and your colleagues were really tracking all the internet evidence, there was so much warning that this was all leading up to january 6th. these conspiracy theories were proliferating and it was in a very organized way. >> definitely. so i think what was really powerful here was the testimony

by al smith who was former commissioner of philadelphia. he described how these threats came for him claiming he was culpable in a scheme to steal the election because he refused to stop the vote count. so queue qanon supporters got together and were yelling about this on the dark corners of the internet and were threatening him and his family and sending him threats to his e-mail. it's scary stuff we saw extend to other election officials in georgia, arizona, and a across the country. it's that threat of violence that we saw extend to january 6. so every single time trump would tweet about someone or say something like come to january 6th. it's going to be wild. the people sort of collectively held their breath. you saw a one to one pipeline between what trump said on the

internet or in a speech and then the rallying on the internet of his supporters to somehow come to his aid or somehow get back at the people stealing the election. >> thank you very much. and back to the point we were making a moment ago. it was a really good one. which was that a lot of this reporting was already out there, but that we saw faces and names to that reporting now actually laying out this was not stolen. no, this was not fraud. the president, we told him. >> we told him that it wasn't. >> i believe we have jamie raskin now, a member of the select committee as well investigating january 6th. congressman, thank you very much for joining us. it felt like today, and with the first hearing as well, you're putting donald trump front and center of this whole scheme, i'll put it that way. it would be surprising to some people that you weren't trying to put pressure on the doj with this.

>> well, we're following the facts. there's no way of understanding anything that happened without putting donald trump at the center of it. i mean, this would have ended like any other presidential election had he not been hell bent on overturning joe biden's majority in the electoral college. every other presidential election we have seen except for a couple where they have been genuinely close or nobody got a majority, but in general, someone wins, someone loses, someone concedes and it's over. here donald trump despite being told by the attorney general of the united states, his campaign lawyers, his campaign advisers that it was over, there was no merit to any of these claims of electoral fraud or corruption decided to keep going, keep raising money on the false assertions of a stolen election and then to drive it all the way up to january 6th where everyone knows the disaster that took place with insurrection violence

against congress in the final attempt to force vice president pence to step out of his role and throw the whole thing. >> congressman, i want to ask you as put on your hat as law professor, if you you to put on your hat as law professor, if you will. we heard testimony today on video from attorney general bill bar that more than a month after the election in december he was telling the president, as were all the other legal advisers, white house terns, campaign advisers that there was no fraud in michigan, there was no fraud in arizona, there was no fraud in pennsylvania, there was no fraud in georgia, that all of these conspiracies were totally wrong, no evidence at all, and the press was getting angrier and angrier. he had been warned, of course, that the vote on election day would be misleading, always has been but he ignored all of that on election night, the day after, the days after.

so is this that he was disconnected from reality or is this willful denial? which is it legally when looking at whether the president was responsible for wittingly denying and perpetuating the big lie? >> that's the question, was he detached from reality as attorney general barr suggested someone would have to be to continue to believe all of these bogus claims, or was it a willful suppression and denial of the truth in order to keep making money and to hold out the possibility he might somehow be able to pull victory from the jaws of defeat. and whenever it was raised before during his term or even after january 6th that the president was somehow deranged, that he couldn't be trusted to be running the executive branch of the government, generally his

supporters and those in the gop said, no, we're not going to invoke the 25th amendment, the house of representatives voted to ask the vice president and the cabinet to invoke the 25th amendment but even vice president pence said, no he wouldn't do that at this point. so at this point we just have to assume he is a rational actor, he is responsible for all of his actions the way every other president in the history of the united states is responsible for them. so my answer to your question is it was a big lie, he told a big lie, he knew it was a big lie and he was perfectly aware from all of his advisers and all of his lawyers that there was no truth to it. >> congressman raskin, it's hallie jackson. we're so grateful for you to be here. i have two fairly cut and dry yes or no questions. first, do you believe the department of justice straight up should pursue some sort of criminal investigation to donald trump related to what he did on january 6th?

>> well, look, one of the conventions and norms of our political system that donald trump destroyed was the idea that the political branches should not be dictating to the department of justice who they prosecute and who they don't prosecute. i knew everyone got used to waking up and telling william barr or whoever was attorney general, you have to prosecute so and so and leave so and so alone because he's a good guy. we trust the officials in the department of justice and the attorney general to arrive at the proper conclusions and our job is to assemble all. facts because were it not just an individual criminal accountability and responsibility, we're also interested in the country and the congress responding to these events by fortifying our democratic institutions. so the right to vote is respected and not put in danger and elections are integrity and

are not bowled over by presidents hell bent on victory despite what the people have said. >> i hear what you're talking about, i hear what you're saying. i ask you as somebody well versed and steeped in the facts and your personal person. let me ask you about the big lie with the big ripoff and the financial piece of this. do you believe donald trump could be criminally culpable for potential wrong doing? do you believe the committee has found enough evidence to show that? >> well, again, that's not our job to enter into the statutory elements of mail fraud or federal elections campaign act. that is not what our principal purpose is here. i think from a common sense perspective, which is what we're interested in, there's no doubt that donald trump was pulling the wool over the eyes of his

supporters when he led them to believe that he'd actually won the election. when he had lost it and it was clear that he lost it. but it was an effective fund-raising tactic. i have no problem saying that and i agree with my colleague, ms. lofgren, that from the standpoint of people sending in money, that felt like a ripoff, at least in the moral sense. >> not using the f word, fraud. congressman jamie raskin, thank you very much for joining us. we do appreciate your time. i know you're very busy. >> a programming note tonight at 8 p.m. eastern, stay with us for a january 6th hearing recap special with expert analysis. that is the january 6th hearings, the house investigates recap special tonight on msnbc. coverage is also available on peacock.

>> and we will see you during our normal hours tomorrow. then on wednesday we'll be back for the third hearing. so stay with us with halle, katy and i for our continuing coverage with chris jansing coming up now after the break. think he's posting about all that ancient roman coinage? no, he's seizing the moment with merrill. moving his money into his investment account in real time and that's... how you collect coins. your money never stops working for you with merrill, a bank of america company. ♪ i want to rock and roll all night ♪ ♪ and party every day. ♪

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headquarters in new york city. there is a lot happening right now. the gun bill negotiations enter a critical new phrase. the working group has a framework and ten republican votes it needs to pass. what happens when it gets to the full senate and the nra starts applying pressure? plus gas prices now climbing over $5 a gallon, up 60 cents in just a month. >> we definitely don't go out that much. yeah, it sucks. >> to change the way that i live my life and i have to change the thing that i buy and i spend money on. >> and while the cost of everything keeps going up, markets are going down dramatically again. we've got our expert coming in on what to expect next. but we're going to start with the january 6th committee hearing. new details coming out today from republicans about how then president trump repeatedly endorsed the big lie, raising millions