♪♪ ♪♪ hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. big day. the second public hearing by the january 6th select committee focused on the baseless conspiracy that ultimately led to the attack on the u.s. capitol. the myth that millions of americans to this hour still believe that the big lie that the election was stolen from donald trump and how the chief proponents of the big lie, the disgraced ex-president and his innermost circle knew that the big lie was just that, a lie, and used it anyway to spawn a conspiracy to overturn the 2020 election. arguably, it's difficult to say this out loud. the star witness of today's witness was trump's own a.g., bill barr, the man who carried water for trump for years until he broke with the big lie and trump's coup attack.

here he is unsparing in his rejection of trump and giuliani's election fraud delusions. >> i told them that the stuff that his people were shoveling out to the public was bull [ bleep ]. that the claims of fraud were bull [ bleep ], and you know, made a statement about that, but i reiterated that they wasted a whole month on these claims on the dominion voting machines and they were idiotic claims. i specifically raised a dominion voting machines which i found to be among the most disturbing allegations and disturbing in the sense that i saw absolutely zero basis for the allegations, but they were made in such a sensational way that they obviously were influencing a lot of people, members of the public, that there was this systemic corruption in the system and that their votes didn't count and that these machines controlled by somebody

else were actually determining it which was complete nonsense, and it was being laid out there, and i told him that it was -- that it was stuff and they were wasting their stuff on that and they were doing a great, great disservice to the country. i thought, boy, if he really believes this stuff he's become detached of reality if he really believes this stuff. on the other hand, when i ran into this and would, you know, tell him how crazy some of these allegations were, was there never -- there was never an indication of interest in what the actual facts were. in my opinion then and my opinion now is that the election was not stolen by fraud, and i haven't seen anything since the election that changes my mind on that including the 2000 mules

movie. [ laughter ] >> we don't all think it's funny, but we'll get back to that. when donald trump pressed ahead with the fraud delusions on the advice of rudy giuliani who was, quote, apparently inebriated according to vice chair liz chain owe election night when he first told trump to go ahead and declare victory anyway regardless of the results and despite pushback from his campaign manager and even his son-in-law. >> i didn't mind being categorized, there were two groups of them. we called them my team and rudy's team. i didn't mind being characterized as being part of team normal as reporters kind of started to do around that point in time. i didn't think what was happening was necessarily honest or professional at that point in time. >> what they were proposing i thought was nuts. the theory was also completely nuts. there was a combination of

italians and germans and different things were floating around and hugo chavez and the venezuelans and he has an affidavit from somebody that wrote a software and something with the philippines, just all over the radar. >> did you ever share, mr. kushner, your view of mr. giuliani? did you ever share your perspective about him with the president? >> um, i -- i guess -- yes. >> tell me what you said? >> basically not the approach i would take if i was you. >> having worked on campaigns and quibble with the use of the word normal, but it's all relative here, we're talking trump. campaign manager bill steppian and jared cush per and the cadre of aides that described them as team normal could have and should have denounced the big lie in public because during that time team trump raised a whopping $250 million off of

fraud claims that they all knew were not true as select committee members, and not only was there the big lie, was there the big ripoff and as trump and his allies conned their supporters into thinking their vote had been counted lawfully, legally or accurately. the panel ended with this, the insurrectionists storming the u.s. capitol brought there by the ex-president and his allies and enraged by their lies. >> let's go right now. fake election. they think they're going to [ bleep ] cheat us out of our vote and putting biden in office. it ain't happening today, buddy. >> you voted? >> yes, sir? >> how did it go? >> i voted early and went well except can't really trust the software. dominion software. >> we voted and right to the top right-hand voting of the dominion voting machine that we used there was a wi-fi symbol with five bars so that most definitely connected it without a doubt.

so they stole that from us twice. we're not doing it anymore. we're not taking it anymore. so we're standing up. we're here and whatever happens, we're not letting down together. >> it didn't work. it absolutely worked. >> trust the system. 200,000 people that weren't even registered voted. 430,000 votes weren't here and you can't stand there and tell me that it worked. >> i don't want to say that what we're doing is right, but if the election is being stolen, what is it going to take? >> joining me today is investigations reporter and katyal, georgetown law professor and joyce vance now at the university of alabama, all of them msnbc contributors.

i want to start with the last piece of evidence entered into the record today by the 1/6 select committee, neil. everything they said there was described by bill barr as, quote, crazy stuff, quote, bullshit and a sign of trump losing contact with reality. you saw the whole life cycle of trump's knowingly peddling lies to his supporters and the violent criminal acts they carried out in service of those lies. >> exactly, nicole. a lot of this is stuff we've heard before that donald trump was eluded from reality and bill barr's term, and we've all heard that and that's the what question. the who question, to hear it today not from democrats and from republicans and not just from republican, but trump's people and not just from trump's people, but trump's inner circle, that's what's so amazing about the testimony today.

i mean, trump is running out of people to attack. i mean, bill barr now, he's attacking him as disloyal. these were stalwarts and nobody's watching this hearings and something like this where you have crossovers from the serious most inner circle of trump, may really do something. i'm reminded of our prosecution on the george floyd case. it's very hard to prosecute a cop for murder almost never happens, but we did have in that case people like chief arredondo cross over and say, you know, the chief of police saying this was wrong and a jury convicted 22.5 years for the defendant in that case. again here, it may not matter with trump's base, this testimony today and what we heard, but there is a larger odd audience and potentially a jury just as there was in the floyd case. >> 20 million people waufrpd

thursday night and i don't know the ratings from this morning's hearing and merrick garland said from the podium he's watching and i want to ask you about the irrefutable body of evidence now in the public record from this committee that donald trump knowingly lied. i think there was a little bit of oh, he's so crazy and that was always i think don junior relied on that in the mueller probe and the incompetence defense. we didn't know he was talking to the russians and they didn't know they had -- i mean, what is the impacts of this irrefutable body of evidence that all of the crazy stuff was actually investigated and we skip over that at our own peril. i thought some of the blockbuster evidence was that u.s. attorneys and the justice department and the attorney general investigated all of this and i'll use bill barr's technical term b.s. and found nothing. let me play some of that testimony. this is -- this is testimony from richard donoghue's

deposition and live testimony from the u.s. attorney. >> the president kept fixating on the suitcases that supposedly had fraudulent ballots and that the suitcases were rolled out from under the table. i said no, sir, there is no suitcase. you can watch that video over and over. there is no suitcase. there is a wheeled bin where they carry the ballots and that's just how they move ballots around that facility. >> mr. giuliani only played a clip that showed them pulling out the official ballot box from under the table and referring to that as a smoking gun of fraud in fulton county when actuality in review of the entire video, it showed that that was actually an official ballot box that was kept underneath the tables and we saw them pack up because the announcement that they thought they were done for the night and once the announcement was made that you should continue to bring the ballot pack out and continue to count.

the fbi interviewed the individuals that are depicted in the videos, these were purportedly double, triple counting of the ballots and determined that nothing irregular happened in the counting and the allegations made by mr. giuliani were false. >> so, neil, i thought and i said no, sir was in some ways the most damning testimony for trump. he investigates this trump and goes and reports back to trump and i said no, sir, that's not the case. same with mr. pak, he reveals that the fbi interviewed the individuals depicted in the videos and were double and triple counting the ballots and determined that no, nothing irregular happened. the allegations made by giuliani were false. >> i think it's impossible, nicole, for merrick garland to ignore that evidence today that you're pointing to because legally, the key to trump's defense has always been, look, i genuinely believed i won the election and that's yet

testimony today is so significant. these aren't dems or something saying this. this is trump's inner circle and people who trump appointed to high positions at the justice department all saying that that is poppycock in short of donald trump standing up and finding evidence that he said i never believed i won or something like that. this testimony is about as good as it gets. i don't think any jury would agree that donald trump could have plausibly ignored the entire justice department as well as all of his advisers and accepted in good faith by contrast the testimony -- the words of an inebriated rudy giuliani. and trump didn't have a genuine belief he won and defended against all challenges what today's testimony showed is he brute rumor after rumor to the officials of the justice department in the hopes that one of them would stick and if a jury managed to conclude this he genuinely believed all of them the second that he heard these kind of poppycock stories it

could only be because his lawyers in a criminal trial one day ran one heck of an insanity defense because no rational person could believe this in the face of all of the investigations the department did to track down all of this cockamamie theories. >> it points to the fact that anything happening after elect day that would have changed the outcome was impossible. it was never going to happen and between the ginsburg testimony and the former fox official testifying to the fact that there was never any doubt in his mind that trump had lost once the election was called they never looked back. these calls weren't even close. that seemed to also be bricks in that wall that trump knew he lost and knew nothing would change that outcome. let me play some of his testimony for you. >> trump had some basics problems, however.

number one, the 2020 election was not close. in this election the most narrow margin was 10,000 and something in arizona and you just don't make up those sorts of numbers in recounts and when the claims of fraud and irregularities were made, you've heard very compelling testimony from mr. steppian, from matt morgan and alex cannon about those claims and how they didn't believe them. so that put the trump campaign on sort of a process of bringing cases without the actual evidence that you have to have in which the process is designed to bring out. >> so, joyce, for anyone that doesn't know, ben ginsburg is a longtime trusted hand to republican candidates for president and he was the lawyer on the bush v. gore case and the

bush recount. he's talking about 537 votes in florida. that's one day. trump was talking about making tens of thousands of votes in six days. >> ben ginsburg is sort of a democratic version of mark elias for listeners who are rnts familiar with him. someone who is steeped in election law. so when he says this it's really important. he makes the point that trump had to win not just in one state, but in three states at a minimum. he would have had to have had recounts and that wasn't happening. so if you're merrick garland, how does this strike you? what you're listening for is what did people actually communicate directly to trump? because if merrick garland isn't going to have direct evidence that trump knew he had lost the election, the theory he has to have is one of willful blindness, that trump stuck his head in the sand and so when you have witness after witness come

in and say on the night of the election trump declared his victory despite being told by people in the campaign that he didn't have the numbers, ultimately you have to get precise testimony from those witnesses of what they said to trump. you want to get some of his reaction into it if you can, and then when you get into the hard core examples of voter fraud that trump kept throwing up and saying this is fraud, and people at doj repeatedly striking that down, bill barr, rich donoghue and you hear b.j. pak saying we investigated because bill barr told us it was top priority and we went out and said that the president's case of fraud in georgia wasn't the case of fraud at all and that's communicated back to trump. that evidence all accumulates into a very solid block of proof of willful blindness. >> jackie, there's so much in these two hours of testimony. it is really exquisitely produced for television. these bombshells in the taped

deposition are sort of written to perfectly and artfully with minimal amounts of script. today it was congresswoman lofgren who read it, but in between all of it was stuff that was never public. bill steppian talks about stepping away. i don't remember anybody making that public. he talks about cleaving himself off of the lunatics and calling themselves team normal. tell me how the committee one, navigated there was a last-minute change and we heard from bill steppian today in those taped depp sipgzs instead of as a live witness and also how they are using these depositions to make the case against trump from trump's most trusted inside advisers and family? >>. >> from advisers that are still currently advising election defires and candidates running for congress right now who are

propagating the very claims unsubstantiated claims of election fraud that bill steppian just said in private was b.s. and he thought he needed to professionally distance himself from and that is something important for us to point out from today. all of these people who in these private depositions, bill barr, bill steppian, alex canyon, jason miller all people who worked for the former president did not reiterate these claims publicly nor at the time did they say much. instead they created a pretty vast chasm for sydney powell and rudy giuliani to fill and suck up all the oxygen. that being said this morning it was a bit of a fire drill and a pretty good test for the january 6th committee and they handled it deftly. bill steppian's wife went into labor at the last minute and was not able to show up in person as scheduled at the hearing and so his lawyer kevin moreno showed

up in his place instead and almost sort of like a tv network. the committee behind the scenes was scrambling to fill his place, and that involved basically using all of the pre-recorded private deposition that they had gotten steppian to say and was well aware of what he would testify. one of the keys to being more persuasive here is hearing these arguments in republicans' own words in the own words of trump advisers rather than them telling that story, but i do think again, it was a key test for the committee that they passed with flying colors. it was a little bit of a delay, but not much other than that, and i think also highlighted the multimedia approach that the committee is taking here in comparison to past and more traditional hearings that congress usually puts on.

>> jackie, hugely important point. these are people that are still in good standing with politicians who are riding the toxicity of the big lie. these people telling the coup plot were the co-conspirators. until today we didn't know they'd cleaned himself off. i didn't know steppian thought he was normal and not giuliani. bill barr who was so comfortable throwing trump under the bus after writing a book and saying he was going to vote for him again. he scoffs at the mule movie they just had a big parties about. do you think that the taped depositions and do you think the committee sort of had those tell me how they came to be. >> yeah. the committee has been taping a lot of these interviews in private depositions that they've been conducting.

i think it's obviously preferable to have a lot of these witnesses come in person and reiterate what they were going to saying and for these big players who was never going to show up to the committee and look like he was cooperating and it was a pretty good stand-in. that's why we're seeing ivanka trump, jared kushner, jason miller, alex cannon, rich donoghue and jeff rosen, the gamut, the most influential people in trump's inner circle inside the administration and outside of the administration appear and all basically say the same thing, that trump knowingly spread these election lies. he knew that he lost, but i do think the way that the committee is telling the story did require a bit of forethought even, for example, as we thought about

grift, it reminds me of the time the committee took out the time to tell the story the way that the election defense fund or lack thereof. that money did not go where donors thought you were going to. you had amanda whik and the attorney just sit there and walk everyone through in a pre-taped interview, very much like a television interview and that was produced at halftime and walk through trump made $250 million right after the election and the majority of that cash was used at trump's disposal and not, quote, unquote the election defense fund that was promised. that is fairly complicated to communicate and they did it in a straightforward and explanatory way and in a way that the committee has believed gets at one of the -- the issues at play here that people were defrauded

and that this was -- there was some major rift at play here. >> and it may turn into one of the crimes here. >> we'll look at what's coming next for this committee laying out the ex-president's broader plans about january 6th and brand-new revelations from john eastman that was the blueprint for a coup. liz cheney opened with a story of an apparently inebriated rudy giuliani setting donald trump off on what was known as the big lie, rejecting the advice of everybody else and he's still peddling it today. >> how the ex-president used the big lie. all of those stories and more after "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. stay with us. " continues after a quick break. stay with us

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know, the gbi was unimpressed with it and i was similarly unimpressed with it because i was holding my fire on that to see what the photographic evidence was because i thought, hell, if they have a lot of photographs of the same person dumping a lot of ballots in different boxes that's hard to explain, so i wanted to see what the photographic evidence was, but the cell phone date at is singularly unimpressive. i mean, if you take 2 million cell phones and figure out where

they are physically in a big city like atlanta or whatever, just by definition you're going to find many hundreds of them have passed by and spent time in the vicinity of these boxes and the premise that, you know, if you go by five boxes or whatever it was that that's a mule is just indefensible. >> so that was bill barr, siskel and eberting flick right-wing mules. it's a movie about election fraud and it's become the biggest thing on the right among stop the steal fans and believers. we are back with our panel. i want you on this version of bill barr, almost sneering at the delusions of trump. he picked his moment and he

described jared and dan scavino as reasonable ones and you can see it gets skewed for everyone in that orbit. >> yeah. look, i'm worried about any kind of thought here that bill barr is now a hero because of his testimony before the committee. he's provided just the barest facts here, and of course, he didn't do anything about any of this at the time. he's only talking about it now after he sold his book. this was the guy who was perfectly willing to lie about election integrity in the months leading up to the 2020 election, like in september of the 2020, he falsely claimed a man in texas, i think, committed 1700 ballots of voter fraud, so he's no moral figure here. really the only difference between him and rudy giuliani is that barr didn't have the courage to take his lies all of the way up to the courthouse steps at least during the time when he was in office. now he's saying something different, and that's good, but you know, i teach law students. i sure hope that no law student

today watches bill barr and thinks this is a way a lawyer should behave. the testimony is important. it helps show that donald trump had a certain mens rea that he had a criminal intent and he was blowing off all these people who said we've investigated there and we can't find any -- any factual corroboration for your claims about election fraud. all of that is helpful. it is really late, though, 18 months later, and i expect more from the attorney general of the united states. >> you know, joyce, when neal puts it that way it takes your breath away that he was the attorney general of the united states. he is one of the 12 people as now on the record as having told donald trump that the claims of fraud were bogus. bill barr uses a different word. we won't say it again. i want to show you another one. this is campaign lawyer eric hirschman on what he told john eastman who is the subject of so much of the investigation by the 1/6 committee.

>> i said to him are you out of your f-ing mind? i said -- i only want to hear two words coming out of your mouth from now on, orderly transition. >> again, donald trump after being told by everyone from bill barr to bill stepien to jared and ivanka that he had not won and that there was not a path to victory through investigations of fraud turned to the like of rudy giuliani and john eastman and this is a campaign lawyer saying that he told eastman to cut it out and to only talk about an orderly transition. what was the purpose of that testimony, joyce? >> so increasingly the committee paints a portrait of a positive who is surrounded by people who know that the big lie is an enormous lie and begin to express that to him, and mr.

hershman's role here and particularly with eastman in the loop is yet another piece of this evidence that trump either knew he was lost or was willfully blind to that fact because as the litigation continues there's more and more of a loss pattern in court. in fact, trump never wins a substantive case. no court finds that there was fraud that impacted the election and there were a lot of republican federal judges in the mix including ten, appointed by donald trump and it accumulates and gets better and better in regard to the committee and perhaps the justice department. >> i want to actually add to what you and neil have expressed. this feeling of discomfort that bill bar emerges as a hero or other people emerge as here here owes, my bestness wenses were

never choir boys. they were people who were close to defendants. people who had a little bit of dirt on their own sleeves as well so when bill barr comes in and tells this chunk of the truth and the stories they've told today, they are enormously helpful and that doesn't mean we have to applaud him as a hero. he let it go on for far too long and we wouldn't have gone to the point of litigation and mr. hershmann's comments if bill barr had shut it down earlier. >> absolutely right. jackie, i want to come back to news that -- about the ratings that i mentioned and questioned to neal earlier. 19 million people watched. do you have any sense that that exceeded the committee's expectations for these hearings? >> they have been trying not to do this through the lens of ratings. obviously, that's a little bit hard to believe now that they've

hired a former abc news executive and when you look at the actual size of the production staff. we -- we never got an explicit number laid out from them, but i get the feeling that committee has been pleased so far with the way that this has penetrated and gotten through to the american people. i mean, we, at the end of the day even if we're not talking about this through the lens of being a media reporter, a huge portion of the committee's success is contingent on the fact that a sliver, a swath of the american public who believes that january 6th did not happen might tune in and these lawmakers might be able to change their minds. at the end of the day, as we said a million times the committee does not have a prosecutorial mandate. this is an explanatory process for them to create a historic

account. yes, they obviously are laying out the evidence in a prosecutorial way, but really, their objective at the end of the day is to garner to try this case in the court of public opinion and garner enough of a groundswell in support of potential legislative remedies that they're going to put forth. so getting those ratings is definitely a plus for lawmakers whether or not they want to say that explicitly, and it's something that they have been concerned about from the very start. there are a bunch of elderly millennial lawmakers on the panel who are well aware of the fragmented way the media works these days and they want to be able to break through and have these sticky sound bites for people to replay and share on social media, and you know, for all of the -- the blowback that they got for scheduling something in prime time, i actually think it really worked to their advantage.

>> jackie, neal and joyce vance, thank you for starting us off. neal sticks around. up next for us, how rudy giuliani becomes the only inebriated one to actually stumble in and get before trump? how we learned today that he still appears to be peddling all the same, to quote, bill barr, b.s. that's next. barr, b.s. that's next. the lows of bipolar depression can leave you down and in the dark. but what if you could begin to see the signs of hope all around you? what if you could let in the lyte? discover caplyta. caplyta is a once-daily pill, proven to deliver significant relief from bipolar depression. unlike some medicines that only treat bipolar i,

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there were suggestions by, i believe, it was mayor giuliani to go declare victory and say we won it outright. it was far too early to be making any calls like that, ballots were still being counted. ballots were still going to be counted for days and it was far too early to be making any provocation like that. >> remember saying to the best of my memory i would say that we should not go declare victory until we had a better sense of the numbers. >> okay. can you be more specific about that conversation in particular about what mayor giuliani said, your response and anybody else in the room's response? >> i think effectively mayor giuliani was saying we want it. they're stealing it from us. where did all of the votes come from?

we need to go say that we won and essentially that anyone who didn't agree with that position was being weak. >> it amounted to compelling testimony from trump's most senior campaign officials who turns out sound advice on election night to not publicly echo the false claims that trump had won was not heated. of course, donald trump would go on to take rudy giuliani's advice above everybody else, bringing into our conversation tim miller. tim, those unsupported claims of fraud that forced the campaign into this path to a -- an insurrection is part of why we're here, but i know that as a former campaign person, you know, we have more giuliani sound, tim. let me play this for you. >> we can prove every single thing i just said. >> if you gave me the paper ballots i can probably turn around each one of these states. if you let me examine each one

of those ballots i would pull out enough that were fraudulent that it would shake the hell out of the country. >> none of that turns out to be true, right? we can get our hands all over -- seriously, get run down by the attorney general of the united states, and the acting attorney general as barr high tails it outside of there and 60 judges that look at these claims and none of them are true and none of them bear out. i think we learned today about how much time and energy was spent running them all down, and i wonder your thoughts about what's never really been revealed publicly which is how bill stepien and jason millner hindsight as having cleaved away from the lunatics. >> yeah, look, nicole, i've been in a lot of, unfortunately losing campaign ballrooms and talking with candidates and what they're going to say as it turns

out the night isn't going to go our way and the conversation isn't easy. >> you don't have an insane person in the room saying we should try to steal it and let's wait until tomorrow and let's wait until the ballots come out. you might still win and it's hard for people to deal with loss, and so in those moments you need to have a candidate that has the -- their head on straight enough to know that they have a responsibility to the country to go out and concede and every time through our history, this has happened. al gore and john kerry and mitt romney the candidates have done this. in this case, the difference was donald trump, and so this is why i'm a little bit unimpressed by bill stepien and jason miller kind of saying that they, you know, meekly suggested that donald trump do the right thing. we all knew donald trump wasn't going to do the wrong thing on election night because he told us he wasn't going to. he didn't do it in the iowa

caucus in '16. whenever he was questioned about it in 2020. he said he wasn't going to do it. he wouldn't commit to it and the secretaries of defense had to write letters about it so bill stepien and jason miller knew what they were going to sign up for. so when donald trump went out and said a fraud was perpetrated on the american people it was their job at that time to come public and say this is false. that is the -- that was their job then. it was their job between then and january 6th and it was their job during the impeachment trial and they didn't do it. they step back from the crazy in private, that doesn't impress me. that doesn't impress me one bit. that just means they were going along with the coup and not saying anything about it. they were on the backseat of team coup rather than the front seat. all of trump's people knew that it was false except maybe rudy who was drinking and that they all at varying degrees went along with it because donald trump was committed to

overturning our democracy. >> i have some of the same emotional reaction that dim tim does, but at the end of the day, liz cheney and bennie thompson, the evidence is the evidence and sworn testimony under subpoena or otherwise presented to the country from trump's innermost circle makes the point that they couldn't, that impeachment witnesses and two impeachments couldn't and robert mueller couldn't and that is that inside the trump -- i don't know, what to call it, cave? they all knew it was b.s. to borrow bill barr's word and they described a drunk giuliani that staggered through the rope line, talked to him and gave him something to grab on to and put into motion the events of a coup. i guess what i would add is it's hard to talk to a knd at about a loss except this one who knew he was going to lose last summer and that's why he told voters in north carolina to vote twice and

investigate voter fraud. they were running a campaign about a rigged election six months before anyone voted. >> tim's eloquent remarks i think can coexist nicely with yours and the point that joyce made a moment ago which is these people, it's good that they've come, stepien and others have told the truth now. it doesn't make them heros and it makes them important witnesses for both the american people and potentially in the prosecution, but tim's absolutely right. this was an orchestrated plot to manipulate reality, and it's one thing if you're a candidate and you think you won and you have a good faith basis for doing that. i was a junior lawyer in bush versus gore. for a while i thought we had won even when the vice president pull out on december 12th and the election and there was a good faith argument that you won and the country is more important than me clinging on to

these folks. here, the painting that was portray today was basically manipulating everything to claim a wind that was never ever there. bill barr was actually part of this. he broke the justice department policy that says you don't investigate election fraud allegations before the vote is certified and indeed the elections chief at the justice department resigned over this, ausa, the system prosecutor's voiced a lot of concerns about this and nonetheless, all of this manipulation of reality in 63 different court cases, you know, was enabled both by barr and by giuliani and others, and so i guess, you know, i have still ptsd from the trump presidency. i mean, from 2017 to '20, we had all these kinds of realtime updates on the cray-cray.

>> we didn't even know half of the cray-cray. there were divisions within team trump about how they were going to go. >> want to show you this testimony because i think neal is making a serious point in an artful way. what we got was a window into the -- i think there was a book written about them, the viper's nests or the snakes or the tarantula bowl and you saw in today's sworn testimony in the depositions you saw jason miller and bill stepien. again, stepien works for liz cheney's republican primary opponent, but you saw them talking about and testifying under oath through rudy giuliani's drunkenness and his desire to do something that they both advised against and knew was wrong. i'll show you that after a quick break. tim and neal, stick around. don't go anywhere. d neal, stickd don't go anywhere.

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have more to say about this the next day. or the next day. whenever we had something to say. >> and did anybody who was a part of that conversation disagree with your message? >> yes. >> who was that? >> the president disagreed with that. i don't recall the particular words. he thought i was wrong. he told me so. and you know, that they were going to, you know, go -- that he was going to go in a different direction. >> was there anyone in that conversation who, in your observation, had had too much to drink? >> mayor giuliani. >> tell me more about that. what was your observation about his potential intoxication during that discussion about what the president should say when he addressed the nation on election night? >> the mayor was definitely intoxicated but i do not know

that his level of intoxication when he spoke with the president, for example. >> you know, for example, when he put the president on the path to run a coup against the government. tim, what'd you think of that? >> yeah, well, we've all known this about rudy. i think that what, for me, was striking about today's testimony is that it was a microcosm of something that we've seen in the republican party, really, ever since donald trump took it over. there was this category of people who were the sociopaths, the racists, the bigots, you know, your steve bannons, peter novarro, drunk rudy giuliani, that were pushing the crazy, and at some level, believed it. and then there were these other people who were actual functionaries of the republican party who were trying to make things continue to go on time. and it was this second group that i wrote about in my upcoming book and i think is the most relevant, that was necessary to get all this stuff

to happen. and throughout time and again, you had crazy people pushing trump to the crazy, and then you had people behind the scenes, ivanka, whoever it was, saying, oh, no, maybe we should nudge him this direction, and every time trump did something crazier, the people who considered themselves to be the responsible ones just used that as more evidence that they were needed. they were like, look, another kraes thing happened. if i quit, who might replace me? it might be a white nationalist or one of rudy's drunk friends so you get people like miller and stepien, who up until the end, when every piece of evidence was that their boss was not going to listen to them, that he was going to overturn the democracy, that they were out of favor, that the rudys were the ones in charge, they stuck with him because their career was required to stick with them. and i think that this testimony is just a behind-the-scenes look at something we've all learned from these leaks and dribbles in the "washington post" and "new york times," that this whole time, there were two groups, the

crazies and the people who were happy to go along with the crazy if they could get career to go forward but it was the crazies who kept winning because trump was a crazy and that's the nature of politics. at the end of the day, the staff is going to really the principal and there's nothing you can do to change donald trump from being the person that he was. >> and i think the other word for them are enablers and the enablers are the oxygen for the fire that is the crazies who burn down not just the republican party but our democracy. it was an incredible day of testimony. we'll see. i mean, neal, to your starting point, we'll see if as many people catch this one in its news coverage and the actual testimony, we'll continue to call on both of you to talk through it together. tim miller, neal katyal, thank you so much for spending time with us today. up next for us, january 6th select committee member pete aguilar will be our guest. don't go anywhere. ber pete aguilar will be our guest. don't go anywhere. and, we're back! it's time to see which chew provides the longest-lasting flea and tick protection. bravecto's the big winner. 12 weeks of powerful protection,

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as someone who's run for office a few times, i can tell you, at the end of a campaign, it all comes down to the numbers. the numbers tell you the winner and the loser. for the most part, the numbers don't lie. but if something doesn't add up with the numbers, you go to court to get resolution. and that's the end of the line. we accept those results. that's what it means to respect the rule of law. >> hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in new york, continuing our coverage of today's second public hearing by the january 6th select committee, where we

witnessed evidence of the extent of trump's dereliction of duty, evidence that he knowingly defied the very democratic process he swore an oath to protect. a process every president before him had followed to ensure a peaceful transfer of power. witness after witness after witness hammered home the fact that there was never any merit to the dozens of claims of voter fraud that trump and his accomplice, rudy giuliani, were spouting as proof that the election had been stolen. in searing testimony to the select committee, former a.g. bill barr laid out the justice department's work in looking into those claims, all of which came up short. >> there was an avalanche of all these allegations of fraud that built up over a number of days, and it was like playing whack-a-mole because something would come out one day and then the next day, it would be another issue. the early claims that i understood were completely bogus and silly and usually based on complete misinformation. >> based on misinformation, from

bill barr. so bill barr would go on to become fed up with donald trump's b.s., his word, not ours, saying trump had become, quote, detached from reality. in december of 2020, bill barr would leave his position. the men who would follow in bill barr's shoes, though, would face the same delusional president that bill barr did and they too would go out and try to reason with him, with the facts, the committee played testimony from richard donoghue, who became the acting deputy attorney general. watch some of that. >> i tried to, again, put this in perspective and to try to put it in very clear terms to the president. and i said, something to the effect of, sir, we've done dozens of investigations, hundreds of interviews. the major allegations are not supported by the evidence developed. we've looked at georgia, pennsylvania, michigan, nevada. we're doing our job. much of the info you're getting is false. and then i went into, for

instance, this thing from michigan, this report about 68% error rate. reality is, it was only 0.0063% error rate, less than 1 in 15,000. so, the president accepted that. he said, okay, fine, but what about the others? and again, this gets back to the point that there were so many of these allegations that when you gave him the very direct answer on one of them, he wouldn't fight us on it, but he would move to another allegation. so, then i talked a little bit about the pennsylvania truck driver. this is another allegation that had come up. again, he said, okay. and then he said, note, i didn't mention that one. what about the others? and i said, okay, well, with regard to georgia, we looked at the tape, we interviewed the witnesses. there is no suitcase. then he went off on double voting at the top of the next page. he said, dead people are voting. indians are getting paid to

vote. he meant people on native american reservations. he said, there's lots of fraud going on here. flat out that much of the information he's getting is false and/or just not supported by the evidence. >> because there was no fraud. today's hearing also included live testimony from officials in the states who found no evidence of widespread voter fraud in the states that trump had on those long, long lists. their findings put their jobs and even their lives at risk. al schmidt, a former philadelphia city commissioner, who was the sole republican on that county's election board, well, he faced death threats from trump supporters, and bj pack is a former u.s. attorney in atlanta. he resigned after he heard trump wanted to fire him for not backing his false fraud claims. watch. >> mr. giuliani told pennsylvania state legislators that 8,000 dead people voted in pennsylvania. you investigated those claims of voter fraud.

can you tell us what you found? >> not only was there not evidence of 8,000 dead voters voting in pennsylvania, there wasn't evidence of eight. >> the fbi interviewed the individuals that are depicted in the videos that purportedly were double, triple counting of the ballots, and determined that nothing irregular happened in the counting, and the allegations made by mr. giuliani were false. >> it's where we start the hour with congressman pete aguilar of california, a member of the house select committee on january 6th. congressman, thank you for spending time with us today. i know it's a busy week. it is so clear that you have the goods on donald trump's knowledge that he lost the election and that everybody around him told him that he lost the election. just explain to us and our viewers why that's so important as an opening argument. >> well, i think it's an important argument, because it picks up right where we left off

with the opening hearing. we're starting to lay the case and to share with the american public that not only did the president lose the election, he knew he lost the election, and then used every platform he could from twitter to press conferences to rallies to continue to go out and tell the public and to perpetuate this lie that he had won the election and so we want to lay out that case to the american public. we want to show them exactly what was happening in realtime, in november and december, leading up to january 6th, but the fact that the president knew he had lost and was told by every rational advisor around him that he had lost the campaign, is incredibly important to help lay the case. >> so much of what was brought to life today was inside that campaign. i worked on campaigns. i worked on winning campaigns and losing campaigns. inside that campaign, inner circle, where there's really not

any uncertainty testified to by jason miller or bill stepien, just an articulation of how to lose, really. and what is interesting is that a drunk rudy giuliani figures prominently in how trump defies all of his professional advisors from mr. canon to mr. stepien to mr. miller to his own son-in-law and others. is rudy giuliani's role -- just talk about its importance to understanding how the country gets on the path to a coup plot. >> well, and clearly, there will be other theories, the eastman theory we're talking about in future hearings as well and the bottom line, what the american public need to know is that the president was grasping at straws. the former president was grabbing every possible theory to try to hold on to power. and that game plan was different in december, and then as they got closer to january 6th, they became more desperate. and so that's what we will lay

out in subsequent hearings, but the role of rudy giuliani and part of the clown car of attorneys that they had was magnified because they were the only ones who were willing to tell the president what he wanted to hear, and the former president is someone who only wants to surround himself with people who tell him what he wants to hear. so, that's why he wasn't listening to bill barr. that's why he wasn't listening to jason miller, and that's why he was listening to sidney powell and rudy giuliani, because they fed him the conspiracy theories and lies that he wanted to hear, that gave him a chance at holding power. >> bill stepien's testimony was supposed to be live. there was a really quick pivot to using those taped depositions. bill barr's taped deposition is so lengthy, i think i've heard him say b.s. and not abbreviation three or four times. just talk about how much you have. >> we have a lot of depositions.

we have a lot of transcripts. there's a lot of information. and this is part of just a very thoughtful, deliberative nature that this committee has gone about its work. chairman bennie thompson and vice chair liz cheney guiding our efforts but a professional staff that is democrats and republicans, attorneys and who have been working time and time again to help stitch this together and they've done an amazing job and so we have a lot of that information we're going to share a lot more information and a lot more deposition. we want to give the american public a view as to the information that we've gathered but we're going to put them directly in the room where we were having these depositions so they can hear for themselves, in this case, what the advisors to the president were saying directly to the president. >> will we come back to a greater understanding of this cleaving off of what in campaign manager bill stepien's words was the normal team and their

knowledge and their effort to get trump to say something that hewed close to the facts which was the fact of his loss and this separation between stepien and miller and it sounds like kushner walks between both worlds with what we've seen so far, and then rudy and sidney powell and the others, i mean, are we sort of looking at how trump splits off from anyone with any semblance of adherence to reality? >> i think what you'll also see in subsequent hearings is the fact that -- how quickly the former president can go from hearing advice from a trusted advisor and then walking out and saying completely something different. time and time again, he does this. and it really is dangerous, because what we're talking about is a threat to democracy, and overturning a peaceful transfer of power, which is a hallmark of our democratic system. but to your point, we're going to hear more about team crazy vs. team normal and the duelling factions that were in the president's -- the former

president's orbit. >> the first hearing featured testimony from a documentarian who was embedded with the proud boys, and i wonder if the story that he began to tell of these worlds intersecting, do you have evidence that puts trump in contact with or aware of the violence that ultimately takes place on january 6th? >> you know, we're going to run through the evidence that we have. but i don't think it's a long leap for the american public to understand from the minute the former president said, you know, directly called out to the proud boys and said, stand back and stand by, that he was signaling to them that he lifted them up, and we know directly from that testimony that their membership swelled as a result of that name check that he used. so, i don't think that's a surprise to the american public, but we're going to lay out more evidence and information as the hearings move forward. >> merrick garland said today

that of course he was watching. he said his prosecutors are watching. i think he said he can't see all of it live but he's watching. a morning consult politico poll has this interesting bit of polling today. do you believe doj should take legal action against elected officials who tried to overturn the 2020 election? 67% of americans say yes. only 21% say, no. obviously, the elected officials and those running for secretary of state offices right now to be future election officials are one of the existential threats to democracy, one of the things liz cheney talked about when she joined the committee. how important is it to have the public move to a place where they expect the rule of law to apply to people who try to overturn our election? >> well, that's what should happen. we should be bound by a system of laws, and institutional norms as well. but the committee is very mindful that we have our job to tell the truth and the department of justice has their

job. and it's a separate level of accountability. so, we're going to do our job. we're going to tell the story. we're going to talk about the causes of january 6th and what led up to that as well as the deadly violence on the 6th itself. we look forward to telling that story and sharing, and we'll allow the department of justice to do what they need to do. >> congressman, we just got in some response from rudy giuliani's lawyer that seems to contradict the sworn testimony from someone i believe to be close to rudy giuliani, and that's jason miller. so, robert costello, an attorney for giuliani, tells nbc news this. "mayor giuliani denies that he was intoxicated and denies that he was drinking at all, and he suggests that you talk to other people who were there." do you think it's interesting that that's what there's a problem with, not the fact that his claims of fraud contradict hours of bill barr's testimony? >> yeah, out of all the things that we shared with the american public, the fact that rudy giuliani takes issue with him

being inebriated on election night is really something. but i can tell you, we did talk to other people who were there. there were multiple people. that video was edited down, i believe, because there were multiple people who indicated that evening that rudy giuliani had been having a few drinks. so -- but the fact that that's the issue that he takes with the entire testimony today tells the american public everything they need to know about rudy giuliani and his continued efforts to try to thwart a peaceful transfer of power. >> it is amazing. for all the testimony, that's what got under their skin. congressman pete aguilar, thank you very much for spending time with us today. we're grateful. >> thanks, nicole. joining our coverage, dan goldman, former majority counsel during donald trump's first impeachment trial, former assistant u.s. attorney for sdny, now a candidate for new york's tenth congressional district. also joining us, pete strzok, former fbi counterintelligence

agent. miles taylor is here, former chief of staff at the department of homeland security, now the cofounder and executive director of the renew america movement. yamiche alcindor is here, moderator of washington week on pbs. i don't want to fixate on it but this one said that rudy, of everything that was said about his claims being b.s. but bill barr, everything that was said about the campaign manager, bill stepien, the campaign advisor, jason miller, having different advice than what rudy said, the only thing that bothered him today was jason miller's sworn testimony, all we saw, but the congressman says there's lots more where that came from, that he was inebriated. >> it's remarkable, nicole, but all of this is remarkable. the fact that there were not one, but two people on tape saying that rudy giuliani was obviously intoxicated, inebriated, while he then told former president trump to do

something that no other president in u.s. history has ever done and that is declare victory when it was clear that he had not won the election. i think that, of course, there were so many things laid out in this hearing. this was really, i think, the lawmakers cracking the black box into the white house. we saw, from people very close to president trump, saying what he was thinking, what he was saying, and the fact that he made a decision that was counter to all of his top campaign advisors, counter to his campaign manager, to go out there and declare victory when votes were still being counted and when people were telling him that votes were still being counted, says a lot about the frame of mind that the former president was in when he went to the podium and made that statement that really was, i think, almost bringing american democracy to its knees in a lot of people's minds, in a lot of critics' minds in particular. rudy giuliani is someone who has obviously been front and center when it comes to spreading false claims about the election, so it is in some ways not surprising that he wants to weigh in here. but nicole, it is something that he is saying, oh, i'm not drunk,

but all the other election claims, those still stand. >> i mean, yamiche, it's a perfect word. we got inside the black box and it's scary what's inside and you and i had so many conversations during the four years of trump's presidency, and now his one year as a deplatformed whatever he is, ex-president, twice impeached, whatever we call him. it is still fascinating to see, in relative terms, the forces of bad and worse, and i guess by that, i mean, to try to process bill barr, who did more to damage the rule of law than anyone in recent history, to hold him up today as someone who went to trump and was almost sneering at the claims. they were delusional. they were detached from reality. they were b.s., he said, at least three times we've heard in his taped deposition. scoffing at mules, which is like the "top gun: maverick" of the far right right now, it's like where to be seen at that premier. i mean, talk about how to process these characters in trump world in the relative

terms they're being presented by the 1/6 select committee. >> well, really, what we saw was the deep isolation that became the world of former president trump. he began with this sort of picture of a number of people around him at this table wanting to -- him to win re-election. you have bill stepien, a.g. barr, you have jared kushner, and then the committee showed one by one that those people started to fade away, that the only person left was rudy giuliani and his false outlandish claims. you had bill stepien saying, look, i wanted to make sure my rep take was intact and the things i saw were not honest and professional. you saw a.g. barr saying that he told former president trump directly, the doj does not take sides in elections. there is no evidence of fraud. and by the way, we are not your personal legal team. and then you saw jared kushner lay out that he told president trump directly, this is not the approach that you should be taking. and former president trump saying that he had confidence in rudy giuliani. so really, the lawmakers today, the committee today, was really

showing how this inner circle of president trump, it just shrunk and shrunk and shrunk, and we now have the people that are here, but there is another point to be made, which is that while this lie grew and grew and metastasized, it also became a movement. so while president trump became more and more isolated, the actual lie, it was resilient. it continued on. and it was fund raised. it was marketed to millions of people. and that's how it became a deadly lie that then ended up at the doorstep of the capitol. so it's also really important that as we -- as lawmakers showed, all these different people around president trump really saying, i have to get out of this, president trump was able to continue to spread that and continue to grow the people who were supporting the idea that this election was a lie. >> well, i mean, and they're related. i mean, dan goldman, the sort of shrink -- the lessening of the real people around trump, i guess, is the best way to summarize the absence of bill barr, but he's replace bid people who think it's as

ludicrous as bill barr does so the number of people around trump who know that what he's saying is bologna doesn't really shrink. he just, as yamiche is describing, ignores the ones. the fact that they don't come out against the lie is why it's able to metastasize and why it today continues to endanger the homeland. >> that's a very good point, nicole. if they all believed so much and so clearly that what trump was peddling was bogus, why didn't they say it then? that was their duty as government officials, and that was their constitutional oath to stop him from peddling these lies. and if they weren't going -- able to stop him, at least they could try to go public and do it. but everybody is so afraid of donald trump in that party, including the republican senators who did not even convict him after the second impeachment, because as we saw, he was able to raise

$250 million from this big lie, which he will use as a mallet to demand fealty from everyone else. but let's also remember, nicole, especially during that first hour, and it was so effective and so damaging and kudos to the january 6th committee for pivoting on the fly to go from live testimony to bill stepien's deposition testimony, but every single witness we heard from in that first hour was either a trump appointee or a trump official. when you hear people claim this was partisan, just remember the committee members are not the ones who are making up the facts. they're asking the questions. and the people who are answering the questions were donald trump's inner circle and his highest and most senior officials. all of whom were the ones who testified today and just absolutely dismantled any allegation of voter fraud. that this election was not only not a stolen or fraudulent, it

was fair and joe biden won. >> and his children. no one's going anywhere. when we come back, everyone will speak to how the big lie also became the big grift and whether or not there's a crime of fraud there. how the disgraced ex-president and his allies raised millions off the big lie and the legal jeopardy they are in now, possibly, because of that. plus the testimony of a republican official from philadelphia simply serves to remind us of the frightening rise of violent political threats in this country, all made possible by trump's lies and the angry mob that believes them. later in the show, unlike last week, viewers of a certain network finally got to see and hear the truth, including some footage from their own network about how trump tried to overturn an election he clearly lost. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. "deadline ws after a quick break. only at vanguard you're more than just an investor you're an owner. that means that your priorities are ours too. our interactive tools and advice

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throughout the committee's investigation, we found evidence that the trump campaign and its surrogates misled donors as to where their funds would go and what they would be used for. so, not only was there the big lie, there was the big ripoff. donors deserve to know where their funds are really going. they deserve better than what president trump and his team did. >> the big ripoff, the big grift, call it whatever you want, the fact remains between election day 2020 and the attack on january 6th, donald trump's campaign raised hundreds of millions of dollars on an issue they knew was a lie. millions of fund-raising emails,

20, sometimes 25 different appeals in a single day, often encouraging trump supporters to donate to the, quote, official election defense fund. just one problem. amanda wick, senior investigative counsel for the committee picks up the story here. >> the select committee discovered no such fund existed. >> i don't believe there is actually a fund called the election defense fund. >> is it fair to say that election defense fund was another -- i think we called it a marketing tactic? >> yes. >> and tell us about these funds as marketing tactics. >> just topic matter where money could potentially go to be -- how money could potentially be used. >> the claims that the election was stolen were so successful, president trump and his allies raised $250 million, nearly $100 million in the first week after the election. on november 9th, 2020, president trump created a separate entity called the save america pac. most of the money raised went to

this newly created pac, not to election-related litigation. the select committee discovered that the save america pac made millions of dollars of contributions to pro-trump organizations, including $1 million to trump chief of staff mark meadows's charitable foundation, $1 million to the america first policy institute, a conservative organization which employs several former trump administration officials, $204,857 to the trump hotel collection, and over $5 million to event strategies, inc., the company that ran president trump's january 6th rally on the ellipse. >> all of us here today do not want to see our election victory stolen by emboldened radical left democrats, which is what they're doing. >> the evidence developed by the select committee highlights how the trump campaign aggressively pushed false election claims to fund raise, telling supporters it would be used to fight voter fraud that did not exist. the emails continued through january 6th even as president trump spoke on the ellipse.

30 minutes after the last fund-raising email was sent, the capitol was breached. >> we're back with our panel. pete strzok, is that legal? >> i think, nicole, it's a great question. we're talking a quarter of a billion dollars here. $250 million doesn't sound as large in my mind as the billion figure. but i think it draws a whole host of questions about election campaign raising laws and what is and isn't allowed in terms of representation of how those funds are going to be used. i think it's certainly going to cast a spotlight on mark meadows's charitable organization. well, what is that charitable organization? what does it purport to do? how's it spending its money and to the extent it as a charitable organization enjoys any nonprofit tax stus, i think it's reasonable to look at that and figure out what's going on and of course yet again the trump properties are being used as a source of emoluments, whether it's from trump supporters or foreign governments like he used

it during the administration. it also highlights a preexisting issue that all the other grift that was going on surrounding the campaign. there's been extensive reporting about allegedly a criminal investigation into sidney powell and her fund-raising activity, all the information surrounding steve bannon. you have i think probably no happier group of individuals than the attorneys representing dominion with all the statements coming out that trump and people rnd him were told time and again there were no problems with the voting equipment. it is difficult to look at the breadth of all this potential criminal activity and of course the challenge to the department of justice and all the other law enforcement agencies is how you take a limited number of resources and, again, you're already charging 800-plus insurrectionists at the capitol, but how you look at all this other potential crime and prioritize it and sufficiently address it, and i think it makes

me a little uneasy when i hear the attorney general saying, i and all my prosecutors are watching it. i hope they already know what's coming. i don't know that that makes me feel good to hear him say that, but there's a lot out there, and i certainly think that the department of justice is going to be very beside for the foreseeable future. >> i want to understand why it makes you feel bad. to me, it's, you know, the insurrectionists don't exist without trump spreading the big lie and sending the december 19th tweet, come, quote, it will be wild. but tell me, just explain, pete, why you feel uncomfortable with merrick garland basically saying, pop some popcorn and watching just like america. >> well, two reasons. first is, i think my hope would be that the department of justice. in the conduct of the investigations that they're doing with the fbi and other law enforcement partners, should be out ahead of the fact pattern of whatever congress is chasing. in other words, as an investigator, as a prosecutor, i want to be getting to the evidence before congressional committee. i want to be getting records.

i want to be conducting interviews before anything that a congressional committee is going to do, which may or may not impact what i'm trying to do in a criminal sense. and so, to that end, i would hope that there are not surprises coming out of these hearings. to the extent there are surprises, it might be the actual witnesses on the day of the hearing saying something that may add to information that's available or conflict with information, but my strong hope is that everything coming out through these hearings is already pretty well known by the attorney general, by his prosecutors, to the extent that it matters for criminal prosecution. so, again, my hope is the attorney general was saying that in an effort to convey that, we see this as an important exercise by the committee. we see the value in these hearings. but just -- there's a little bit about him saying that that gives me a little bit of unease at the bottom of my stomach. >> i mean, miles, i think we know from some investigative reporting that the committee's been asked for some of these

transcripts, they haven't turned it over. i think we also know, i think, the five of us watched four years of when trump was and was not under criminal investigation. we know a little bit of what it looks like and sounds like. it's a whole lot of, you know, rudy pocket dials. i mean, what's your take on this? >> well, let's first talk about the line and then talk about the implications. i mean, who on this earth does not yet believe that lying is this man's lodestar? it's how he operates. it's how he gets things done. if the truth isn't what he wants it to be, trump reshapes the truth to be whatever he wants it to be, i mean, we all remember the old fable of the emperor who had no clothes. the january 6th select committee is not only showing us that the emperor had no clothes, he knew he had no clothes, and he went running down the street naked anyway and now millions of people are running down the street naked with him. look -- >> what a sight, miles. thank you for that. >> sorry to put that in everyone's minds.

let me reset the analogy. >> please. >> trump's dream -- >> start over. >> trump's dream became our -- yeah. trump's dreams became our national nightmares, and we saw this from the beginning of the administration when he would talk about how vladimir putin was our friend. that became a nightmare because trump ignored the threat putin posed. we saw that when he said covid was going to go away by easter and then millions of people, hundreds of thousands, millions of people were infected, many died because of that lie, but then with the election, this lie that it turned out the way that he wanted to, even though it didn't, has resulted in violence and now also widespread fraud. i'm not a lawyer but i would like to think there's a big case to be brought here about that fraud and the committee's asking the right questions. what did trump know and when did he know it and they're coming to some pretty damning conclusions. >> miles, what did you feel -- i thought about you in any other ex-trump staffer when i heard bill stepien and jason miller, and i'm not comparing you to them and their body of work and their portfolios, but they told trump he had lost, he did not

believe trump had won, did not think trump should have gone out on election night and say that he had won, and it's in dispute whether or not rudy was inebriated, according to his lawyer, but jason miller testified that a drunken rudy giuliani, as did bill stepien, went in and told him to do something that he wanted to do anyway and trump grabbed on to the enabler that presented himself. does that sort of approximate what your experience was? >> >> it really was. and here is that journey and i wish people had gone through the journey quicker because you realized pretty quickly if you went into the trump orbit, trying to keep a check on him, trying to be the so-called steady state, the term that i used or the adults in the room, the axis of adults, whatever you want to call it, it was a farce. and we realized that pretty quickly. and i made the mistake, nicole, of saying publicly, trump's crazy, his advisors know it, but don't worry, there's people around him who are aware of it.

that was wrong. the guardrails of democracy weren't strong. trump systematically dismantled them and the folks who were on at the very end, they already knew that. they knew that the rational points they would make to him would not be accepted, because trump's tactic is to latch on, as you said, nicole, to the one person in the room who reflects his views and discard the others. he is the king of cognitive dissonance. those people knew that. what they should have done is come out sooner and made that clear once they knew it and we have grand examples of that in the post-election period. my good friend who you have had on this program many times, chris krebs, was the one we appointed to lead election security. chris came out publicly, he was the one person most qualified in the entire federal government to say whether the election was secure or not, he went out and said it, trump fired him but trump knew years before the 2020 election that this election would be secure because we briefed him on it. i was there when we told him we were putting in place the preparations to make 2018 and 2020 the two most secure

elections in american history. what did he do? he conveniently forgot that information and started to seize the narrative that it might be stolen from him so he could perpetuate this fraud on the american people and so that he wouldn't look like a loser. that's the one thing he cares most about, it's not upholding his constitutional load but trying to not look like a loser and as a result, we're suffering the corrosion of our democratic institutions. >> all right, no one's going anywhere. when we come back, how one tweet by the ex-president put the family of one republican official who refused to go along with the big lie in danger. we'll play that part of today's hearing after a quick break. t p hearing after a quick break. only at vanguard, you're more than just an investor you're an owner. that means that your goals are ours too. and vanguard retirement tools and advice can help you get there. that's the value of ownership. [zoom call] ...pivot... work bye. vacation hi! book with priceline. 'cause when you save more, you can “no way!” more. no wayyyy.

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after the president tweeted at me by name, calling me out the way that he did, the threats became much more specific, much more graphic, and included not just me by name but included members of my family, by name, their ages, our address, pictures of our home, just every bit of detail that you could imagine. that was what changed with that tweet. >> behind me are redacted threats that you received that you provided to the committee. now, we redacted portions of the text to protect your family. mr. schmidt, i think i speak for all of my colleagues when i say

we are deeply sorry for what you and your loved ones have been through, and i also want to thank you for your service to your country and for standing up for the rule of law. i want to thank both mr. pak and mr. schmidt for their service, their testimony, and for standing up for the rule of law. >> so, that testimony came from one of the former commissioners of the philadelphia county board of elections, al schmidt. he testified this afternoon in front of the january 6th committee about the threats that he and his family received in the wake of the 2020 election. schmidt, the lone republican on the city's three-commissioner board at the time, underscored the ex-president's tactics of intimidation and coercion as he tried to reverse the vote count in key states like pennsylvania. we're back with our panel. yamiche, it's one of the things about covering trump that never wasn't like a finger in a socket, when he would use his bully pulpit and his very sort

of frenzied supporters and target someone personally. in this climate, where threats of violence are the new normal, it was chilling to hear this testimony today. >> it was certainly chilling, and it really hammered home that tweets have real-life consequences, especially for someone attacked by former president trump. to hear this official talk about the fact that people were not only just targeting him but his family, his kids, their ages, that really tells you just how dangerous this was. so before, of course, we always talk about the danger that happened at the capitol, that happened on camera, that happened with hundreds of people, but there are so many people, not just him, but so many people around this country that had to deal with the real bullying, frankly, that former president trump often did and that had real-world consequences. i've talked to people who had to hire security guards, who could not leave their home, who had to

move, who no longer used their address or their real names for simple things because they are scared that people who are supporters of president trump will come after them. and let's be clear. the reason why former president trump was bullying this man is because he went out, he looked at the claims that the former president was doing, as a republican, he was looking at these claims, and saying, mr. president, dead people did not vote. this is all a lie. this is all false claims. and it's important that i think the committee really laid out that there were people actually investigating what former president trump was talking about, that people didn't just hear these claims and hear that boxes were being stolen and say, he must be making all this up. there were people out in the streets who went and interviewed people and talked to people and found these were lies so it was chilling to hear this testimony and to see it put up very clearly that people were emailing and texting this man and his personal phone, but it also tells you the cost of being able to tell the truth, the cost of choosing, frankly, to tell the truth in this country and in

this atmosphere that we're continuing to live through because the danger you've said smartly so many times, the danger continues so the trauma for this man and his family is continuing. >> dan goldman, i wondered if that testimony in the wake of testimony from mr. donoghue and mr. barr and mr. rosen, that all of the allegations of fraud, including those in philadelphia and pennsylvania have been debunked. they'd run them down, which maybe is a conversation for another day, that federal resources were used running down what bill barr called b.s., but they'd been run down. trump knew they were false when he singled out this man that resulted in threats to his family's life. >> it is a conversation for another day but it is completely absurd how many government resources, both state and federal, were used to track down drunk rudy's frivolous claims of

election fraud. and it's amazing that that could actually occur. but you raise a good point, and it's something -- a different context to think about it, also, nicole, which is we saw this in the first impeachment with the threats to the whistle-blower and the threats to alex vindman and the threats to other witnesses, and then you would see trump's supporters actually execute whatever trump said, and go and make these threats after his tweets, and it reminds me that one of thinks defenses is that when he said, fight, go to the capitol and fight, he didn't mean it. by this point in his presidency, he had to have known -- there is absolutely no way that he didn't know that every time he says something or tweets something, that his supporters act violently on that. and what al schmidt described today is yet another example of that. and this is relevant to what trump did leading up to and on

january 6th itself and it will be very relevant to any criminal investigation into donald trump's efforts to overturn the election. all of this goes to it, because the fact that he knew that these election -- that the election was legitimate and these claims of fraud were completely bogus is central to his intent, and what he is trying to do is he's trying to put his head in the sand and say, no, no, i really believed it, even though there is no evidence and even though everyone around me told me it's false and even though every court has told me there's absolutely nothing here, and every lawyer has told me there are no legal claims, no, no, no, i really believed it. it doesn't work that way. and prosecutors should not be afraid of charging him if the evidence is there because he absolutely knew it and they will show that he consciously avoids -- to the extent that he actually believes in his mind that it didn't happen, that conscious avoidance, the willful

blindness, putting your head in the sand is not a defense to a criminal charge. >> yeah, i also -- it jumped out at me as well, knowing that michigan secretary of state jocelyn benson has recently revealed she was accused of treason by trump. bill barr told trump how many precincts there were in detroit and debunked his claims of fraud there, which was at the center of his michigan delusions. everyone's sticking around. there's more ahead for us. a significant change in this country from last week as fox news actually covered today's 1/6 hearing live, meaning, that audience saw the truth about the big lie. we'll see if anyone thinks it will make a difference next. we'll see if anyone thinks it will make a difference next.

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after the votes were counted, who won the presidential election of 2020? >> joseph robinet biden jr. of the great state of delaware. >> that was former fox news politics editor, testifying before the january 6th committee earlier today. he was part of the team responsible for fox making that first call for arizona for joe biden. this is the first time, though, that fox news viewers saw any live coverage of the select committee public hearings after the network declined to take the committee as first hearing that

was in primetime last week, and it's the first time they're hearing from a one-time fox insider in no uncertain terms in a forum like this that the disgraced twice impeached ex president didn't win and had no chance of winning the election after it was called for joe biden. >> as of november 7th, in your judgment, what were the chances of president trump winning the election? >> none. he needed three of these states to change, and in order to do that, you're at -- better off to play the powerball than to have that come in. >> we're back with dan, peter, miles, and tamiche. what's so shock about his testimony is it's like a jolt back to earth, where nothing was going to change the results of the election, and it sort of bring us back to the use of the insurrection act and other extreme measures, because a guy that looks at return a living,

chris stirewalt and ben ginsberg say, no can do. under no scenario is there anything overturning a sizable victory for joe biden. >> that's right, and i think they said in very straightforward terms, this was something that if you were sitting down over a beer at a bar and talking to somebody, they said that message in terms that -- could understand. pointed out, it's not a mistake. known to be a strong competent partisan attorney, and all the other folks i'm very interested, one, to see if trump carries or fox carries the comments that sean hannity and laura ingram

made to him during the testimony. but i think that does provide a service to the american people providing a simple message that can be said again and again and again. republicans are great at this. you think back to benghazi, to trump's mantra about no collusion. the committee has the simple message, and they have the benefit it's truth. i hope they can continue with republican managers to convey something in simple layman's terms that can again just be hammered again and again and again, takes home the true narrative of what happened on january 6th. >> miles, if anything's going to get through to them, their own familiar faces and own words seems to be the last b.s. hope. . >> it actually is. in fact, we can quantify that, nicole. the most effective tactic we found out in the 2022 cycle to convince people of the truth was to use what we call permission

structures. it was to have someone in their tribe say what was true that they didn't believe from someone outside the tribe. where that was most effective was where we have deploying first person testimonials from republicans about the presidency. that resonated far more than voiceover ads, messages from -- at the end of the day, there's the old saying that the lie travels halfway around the world before the truth can get its pants on. if that's the care, fox has been the hypersonic cruise missile of misinformation. hopefully today is a turning point, although i'll hold my breath. >> miles with the pants on and the emperor without his pants on. there's a back story here. >> you are never going to have me again. >> are you kidding? there's a table with your name on it. kept me on my toes today.

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and it stays off. (soft music) so, if for any reason you missed any of the january 6th select committee this morning or you want to see us talk about it, rachel maddow and joy reid and the whole gang and i will all come together again at 8:00 tonight, but the committee member today who led the questioning will be with us. plus one of the witnesses. all starts in two hours at 8:00 p.m. eastern. thank you so much for letting all of us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. >> i'll see uh-uh soon. i only have an insignificant question. between now and then, are you focusing on coffee or food? >> i'm going to have dinner with my family, so that would be curtain number two, food. >> food and coffee