obsolescence of carbon paper or vhs tapes. perhaps someone, somewhere, yearns for those old days. and believes that internet explorer will rise again, just like vinyl records, but probably not. >> what is internet? internet explorer, we hardly knew ya. thanks for getting up way too early on this thursday morning. we will, on a far more serious note, have complete coverage later today of the january 6th hearing. "morning joe" starts right now. >> were you worried about him during that siege? were you worried about his safety? >> no, i heard he was well protected and heard he was in good shape. no, because i heard he was in very good shape. but -- but, no -- >> you heard the chants. that was terrible. you know, the -- >> he could have -- well, the people were very angry. >> saying "hang mike pence." >> it's common sense, it's common sense that you're

supposed to protect -- how can you -- if you know a vote is fraudulent, right, how can you pass on a fraudulent vote to congress? >> donald trump justifying the chants of his supporters calling for the death of mike pence. the january 6th committee holds its third public hearing today, focused on the pressure trump put on his vice president to overturn the election. we will tell you what to expect. plus, new reporting that ginni thomas, the wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas, was in communication with trump lawyer john eastman as he tried to overturn the election. and new reporting that pro-trump lawyers hoped the wild scene that trump teased to his supporters ahead of the capitol attack would pressure the supreme court to get involved in their election efforts. and dow futures fall more than 500 points after markets first rallied around the fed decision to hike interest rates.

steve rattner helps us break down the latest moves on the economy. we're also following the debate over new gun safety legislation. senators hit a few stumbling blocks as they work to draft the bill. we'll explain what is holding up the process. a lot going on today, joe, and more hearings ahead into january 6th. >> yeah, more hearings ahead. a lot to talk about. i mean, we come with john karl. i love the leading question. >> helping him along. >> those chants about mike pence, weren't those terrible? >> those were bad, right? >> right? of course, this is a shock to everybody that's ever watched even an episode of this show, donald trump lied. oh, i heard he was doing fine. >> never reached out to mike pence on january 6th, by the way. he had no idea how he was doing, actually. >> first tweeted, though, while he and his family were on the run. >> yeah. >> then ginni thomas, i mean, come on, it keeps getting worse. >> what is going on there? >> i mean, it is really, really

bad. she's -- >> want me to turn it -- >> it's full on bad. who is whispering in my ear. >> was that lemire? >> john karl helping trump along. >> there he is. >> there he is! >> hey, lemire. you keep whispering. we'll take care of you. we'll cover you. keeps getting worse. >> ginni thomas was at the center of this. the wife of a supreme court justice, working with john eastman, helping to direct this coup to overturn the election. >> john eastman, the chief of staff, members of state legislators, and you're telling me -- listen, i'm all about, and i said at the beginning when this came out, when she had some whacky -- by whacky, i mean treasonous texts to mark meadows -- i said, eh, people live their separate lives. they've got to do what they've got to do. he can have a supreme court justice, and she can be a traitor to the united states constitution. you know, it happens.

but it's gotten -- it's reached such a level now. he had to know what she was doing. he had to know what she was a part of. the fact that he did not say, you know, i can't. >> didn't refuse himself. >> i have to refuse myself in these cases. he did the opposite, he was the lone dissenter. i don't know if that makes sense. our paper of record, the "new york post," they have a doozie here. a congressman said he had covid, but he was partying in the french riviera. listen, if you're going to go, right, go long, be flutie, the hail mary. not like he had covid so he could sleep in. he went to the french riviera. >> "new york post" always laser focused on what is most important, obviously. >> exactly. finally, we'll get to it in a

second, willie, but this loudermilk thing, this guy, you know, who said, oh, no, we didn't give tours, nothing wrong with any tours, and it ends up he's got a guy telling all the democrats on january 6th he's coming to get 'em. the day before, he's taking pictures of security spots. >> no. >> people said, oh, you can't prove anything. i've given a few of these tours. if i'm giving a tour on any day of the year and a guy is stopping and taking a picture of, like, metal detecters, taking a picture of entries, you know, i'd stop and say, hey, hey, hey, inspector, put the camera down or i'm going to make you eat it. let's go upstairs and look at the statue of will rogers. rub his foot, brings you good luck. any member of congress would do that. the fact that was going on in his group, and then he lied to investigators, oh, nothing was

going on, come on, not good. >> not to mention, the capitol was closed to the public. there should have been no tour whatsoever, let alone that kind of tour. loudermilk has pointed to the fact the capitol police looked into this and said it was okay by them. i don't know how exactly, if it was closed to the public. >> yeah. >> they're in parts of the capitol, as you know, that typically you wouldn't take a constituent family on a tour. the select committee put out this video, and we can show the viewers right now. congressman loudermilk of georgia was giving a tour of the complex the day before attack, january 5th. among those taking part in the congressman's tour, a man the committee say was filmed making verbal threats against top democratic lawmakers on the day of the attack, on january 6th. take a look. >> it has begun. here at the washington monument, washington, d.c. say hello to facebook. >> hey, what's going on, man. glad to be here, bro. >> this is our fearless leader.

>> hey, check out my flag i made, guys. see it? there you go, baby. it's for a certain person. >> that's right. that's for somebody special. somebody special! ha-ha. all right. we are basically at the capitol. probably close to 2 million true american patriots. they are swarming and converging. mainly from constitution avenue, but from all routes in. there's no escape, pelosi. schumer. nadler. we're coming for ya. we're coming in like white on

rice for pelosi, nadler, schumer, even you, aoc. we're coming to take you out. we'll pull you out by your hairs. how about that, pelosi? might as well make yourself another appointment. when i get done with you, you'll need a shine up upon that bald head. >> so who is that guy? well, the video goes on to show surveillance footage of congressman loudermilk giving his tour. some of the people there are seen taking photos of staircases, security check-points, tunnels used every day by lawmakers and their staff. >> i'd slap the camera out of his hand. a member of congress, and a guy is doing this, i'd say, what are you doing? stop. come on. this is obvious. had to be obvious to him what was going on. >> obviously.

obviously, they shouldn't have been there in the first place. it was closed. congressman loudermilk initially denied giving a tour on the 5th at all, but there it is in video. last month, he conceded he had, in fact, brought constituents into parts of the capitol complex, calling the visit harmless. he was asked about the new footage yesterday. >> do you know who that man was in the video? >> i don't know him. i've never met him before. >> but he was on the tour before. >> i don't know. i never saw the guy on the video. >> in the video, the individual was taking photos of a security checkpoint in the basement that leads to the capitol. >> actually, what they were taking a picture of is i took the family -- and, of course, the others were with them, two young kids, wanted to see the little trains that take congressmen. i showed them where the trolley was in the tunnel. >> why do you think pictures were being taken of the stairwell, around security. >> if you go to the stairwell,

there is a golden eagle sconce on the wall. these were folks never to washington, d.c., and they were excited. >> why not speak to the committee. >> the committee never called and asked me anything. >> they sent a letter asking for cooperation. >> they never sent it to me. >> interesting. willie, whenever i go to washington, and it's been this way my entire life, the sites i always wants to see, of course, i love the lincoln memorial. you see the majesty of it. you look up, and it is incredible. i always tick pi take pictures . i have a great picture in jefferson memorial. you look up at that, the words on the wall are inspiring. pictures of that. another thing my mom and dad rushed us to to make sure i got pictures of was, of course, the security checkpoints going into congress. like, those are -- as the congressman said, i mean, it's the first time they've been to

washington. they were very excited. they wanted to take a picture of a security checkpoint. the metal detecter, everybody puts -- don't they put that on their top three, top four of sites they want to see in washington, d.c.? why is he lying? why does he think we're stupid? >> lied from the beginning, saying he didn't give a tour but now it's on video. he acknowledges there was a tour. he's saying they were taking harmless images of statues and things like that. it's not true. it's on the video. they also took pictures of a plaque, it was there, jerry nadler's name in the office. a plaque of the photographs of the house majority, the democratic leadership. this was not a stroll through statuary hall to look at the rotunda and everything else. he's taking a picture of a staircase right there. that's all that's happening in that video. >> exactly. >> let's bring in white house bureau chief and host of "way to early," jonathan lemire. congressional investigations

reporter for the "washington post," j jackie alemany, and contributing columnist for the "washington post," george conway. jackie, you've been covering this closely. shifting from congressman loudermilk, he pointed to a letter from the capitol police that initially said they didn't find anything wrong with the tours. i'm not sure how that could be, again, when the capitol complex was closed to the public on january 5th because of covid. >> yeah. you also have to wonder why the capitol police is weighing in on something that they had not seen the footage of. and why capitol police is not in closer touch with the select committee before issuing a statement like that. why they would be willing to do the gop's bidding here. obviously, loudermilk's story has shifted several times, and the committee felt like it was time to put out the actual evidence in order to use this as leverage to call loudermilk in. these reconnaissance tours have been of continued interest to

the committee. i think we will, inevitably, see more about this going forward. the committee has interviewed many of the clerks and people who would have seen these sorts of tours going on during, you know, times that the premises was closed to the public. it is possible they have even more information. i think at the end of the day, this is the committee actually playing a little defense here, fighting back against this gop counterprogramming in an attempt to shred the credibility of what the committee is doing right now. >> mika, in real time, congresswoman mikie sherrill, a democrat, and others, raised red flags about what they'd seen. this is days after. she said, there were strange things going on in the capitol the day before january 6th. she pointed to tours like the one we saw on video. she said she saw more, by the way, not just this one.

she just said, i've given tours. they were in places of the capitol where you just don't take members of the public to see the highlights of the united states capitol. >> right. i don't understand saying they didn't ask me. they didn't -- mr. loudermilk. if i saw what i saw, i'd report that to the capitol police, saying, i did this tour, and these people were acting strange. like, they didn't ask me? okay, that seems very irresponsible or at least someone who has a lack of care as to the security of the capitol. well, the third hearing into the attack on the u.s. capitol is set for 1:00 today. it'll focus on efforts to pressure former vice president mike pence into overturning the 2020 presidential election. in a campaign that put the former vice president's life in danger. aides tell nbc news the hearings will hit four main themes. theory that pence had the right to unilaterally reject the

certified electors. how donald trump led the pressure campaign, despite being told by advisers it was illegal. how that campaign contributed to the violence that endangered pence's life. and the ongoing threat to democracy from people who still claim the election was stolen. puts a lot of people in danger, actually. as for the witnesses, former counsel to vice president pence, greg jacob, and retired federal judge michael luttig, an inforal advisers to pence, are expected to testify. the committee is expected to play clips of the deposition of former pence chief of staff mark short. congressman pete aguilar will lead the questioning. former federal prosecutor john wood will also question witnesses. i know we want to go to george conway. joe, i'll let you go, but i'd like to add into this that what we're seeing so far, even though some of the hearings are in the

morning while people are working, it seems like there is a great deal of interest in them. more than i expected, actually. >> well, a lot more than any of us expected. the numbers, again, the other day for the networks that carried it, very large. george conway, there is quite an interest. my gosh, again, it's -- this is all so obvious. you look at loudermilk. it's very obvious he is lying. you look at what trump is saying to john karl. obvious he is lying. the records show, all the accounts show that he is lying about pence. again, this is compelling television because it is a very compelling hearing because we seem to learn -- or at least get confirmation of what we expected all along. except, well, it is actually a little worse than what we expected, isn't it? >> that's right.

we're seeing it with our own eyes. it is one thing to read about the accounts of the pressure on pence from books and newspaper articles that are sourced by, you know, anonymous sources. it's another thing to actually hear these people speak in their own words in a deposition room. it'll be remarkable to see greg jacob, whose emails we have seen, his dealings with eastman, and talking about how eastman basically caused the siege as the capitol through his crazy legal theory. it is also going to be a tremendous factual story there because he is going to be able to tell, along with mark short, all the pressure that president trump put on vice president pence to try to get pence to act illegally on january 6th. then judge luttig is going to be something of an expert legal witness. you know, he was there to

provide advice to the vice president. they used him as kind of, you know, a shield because he is a conserative judicial icon. the judges in the past quarter century that conservatives have liked. 17 years ago, when the two seats came up for -- under the george w. bush administration, i think judge luttig would be the first choice to put on the supreme court. he was an early law clerk, circuit judge antonin scalia. his law clerks mostly all went to the supreme court and went to clerk mostly for scalia and thomas. they included john eastman, ted cruz. a bunch of very well-known conservative lawyers, they clerked for luttig.

he is fabulous, a principled guy, and he has a lot to say to the threat of democracy, both in 2020 and coming in 2024. >> george, i'm so glad you brought up the conservative legal community in washington, d.c. and the federalist society. it's a tight community, part of a community you've been a part of. i've known a great number of people in. i must say that the overwhelming majority of them are great patriots who, having view of the law that mainstream media may oppose but, again, they love their country. >> right. >> i just have to ask this question, like luttig, i just have to ask this question, though. ginni thomas was a celebrity of sorts in that community. they would have huge events for her. i read a -- i think it was the heritage foundation, all the brightest minds of the d.c.

legal community, conservative community, came out to praise ginni thomas at an event several months ago. she's always, you know, been at the center of that community, of the conservative community in washington, d.c. she's just -- there is no polite way to say it, she -- the texts that she has sent are just traitorous. the actions she has taken are just traitorous actions. the texts to memeadows, the tex to eastman, the texts, the communications to state legislators, telling them to ignore the will of the voters, to ignore election results and throw out elections to put a

tyrant back in place. i just -- i'm curious, do they pretend nothing has happened? because she is clarence thomas' wife, they're going to just ignore? is the federalist society going to ignore? is the conservative community just going to ignore? aei, you name all the institutions, are they just going to ignore the fact that she was in the middle of this traitorous conspiracy? >> i think that's a good question. i mean, none of this is good. it is really bad. it puts the -- puts her husband and the supreme court in a very difficult position and puts a lot of these people who socialized, you know, in this relatively small community in a very uncomfortable position. but fact of the matter is, there has been -- everybody has been in a horrible position because, frankly, of donald trump.

there's been these lawyers, for example. we'll see lawyers this week and next, from greg jacob to the doj lawyers who did the right thing, who stood up to trump. then there are people who are fanatical about overturning the election, who they all know -- i mean, this is the conservative view in the community. fact of the matter, even if they're silent, people are shaking their heads at this. >> let's bring in a hero of january 6th, officer harry dunn who protected the capitol. thank you for spending time with us this morning. i want to get your broad view of what we've seen. you've been there in the hearing room over the last two days. i want to ask you specifically about some of the news this morning about these tours, at least one given by congressman loudermilk of georgia. did you find that unusual when you saw that video, that a tour was given on january 5th? >> good morning. thank you for having me on.

my reaction initially about the entire hearing so far, like joe said earlier in the show, a lot of people are lying. i believe that's why it is extremely important that the committee is doing this work. a lot of the members on the committee say they're following the facts. this is a fact-finding committee. that's why you heard there's three sides to every story. your side, my side, and the truth. i think that's why it is important to get to the truth about everything that's happening. >> no question. you deserve it more than anyone else. the truth has come out in some of the videos we've seen. i'll ask you broadly, the capitol complex was closed january 5th to the public, correct? >> yeah, that's my understanding, yes. >> would it be unusual for a member of congress to give a tour to anyone on january 5th? >> i'm not going to comment anything about, you know, that side of the investigation.

that's out of my scope of -- that's just me giving my opinion about what happened. i'm going to stick to the committee's work and their focus on finding out the truth. it is clear, the evidence doesn't lie, the videos are the videos. you know, if people want to keep on moving the goalpost about the facts of what happened, then, you know, that's that. >> fair enough. so we saw an extraordinary moment where you and your fellow officers were watching on the first night of the hearings, last thursday, that new footage that i don't think you even had seen of what happened on january 6th. you lived it but saw new angles. you saw your fellow officers being beaten with american flags. had racist slurs hurled at you. what was it like to sit and watch the video and relive that terrible day? >> you know, when -- every time there is a new drop or some

footage that's released about that day, i try to avoid watching it. who wants to sit there and subject themselves to watching you, your friends getting beat up like that? forcing yourself to sit there and relive it, it's very traumatizing. the screaming, the agony, the radio calls, the voiceovers, it hits you in some kind of way that makes you think, like, i can't believe we went through that. not only did we go through that, people will look at that and call it legitimate political discourse. it is ridiculous that that's what we are subjected to. it's infuriating. >> let me ask you this, officer dunn, how does it make you feel, again, looking at new footage, how does it make you feel that so many of those thugs that were beating up cops and so many of

those political clowns that are acting like nothing happened on that day, that don't want americans to see cops getting the hell beaten out of them by thugs that support donald trump, how does it make you feel that these are the same people who spent the last year in 2020 talking about defending the blue, defending the men and women in blue, that hang their flags up and, oh, yeah, then when you did your job, they beat the hell out of you. >> it's rhetoric, talking points, they don't believe what they're saying. it exposes hypocrisy. do what they want you to. they called us traitors because we did our job.

it's really infuriating. you know, officer edwards, when she testified about being called a traitor, she takes her job extremely seriously. like the majority of those police officers do, they take it serious. they take their oath serious. for somebody to be called a traitor because we stopped you from doing something illegal, like, it's infuriating. all it does is exposes hypocrisy about their talking points. it's propaganda. it's not even something they actually believe. >> yeah. officer dunn, i'm sure you know this, but the majority of the americans know that in doing your job that day, along with the other office sofficers, youd the constitution, stood in the gap, and we are all -- freedom-loving americans, we are all forever in your debt. thank you so much for your service to america. thank you so much for your defense of the united states capitol. thank you so much for your

defense of our constitution. we're grateful. >> thank you. >> officer harry dunn, thank you so much. >> thanks, officer. jonathan lemire, you've written a book about trump and the dying days of the trump administration. i know you certainly have looked into mike pence, what was going on on january 6th. the fact that he and his family's lives were in danger. donald trump still riling up the crowds. what are you looking for today in the hearings? >> i appreciate the book plug, "the big lie" out july 26th. pence plays, of course, a key role in the president's scheme to overturn the election. they had spent months after the election was called for joe biden trying to find ways where they could overturn the result. you know, whether it was looking at voting machines, pressuring the doj, or, of course, seating the alternate set of electors. that was the eventual scheme concocted. pence would say, look, these

battleground states, there are two sets of electors each. throw them all out. if we do that, the electoral college vote tips against joe biden towards donald trump, and the house would, therefore, rule for trump. it's about the number of states, not majority. of course, pence, you know, despite real effort from the president, the then president, including on the night of january 5th in a conversation in the oval office, pence resisted. the next day, on his way to the capitol, put out a letter explaining his reasons why, which is what triggered trump's ire that day and helped fuel the anger in the crowd outside of the capitol as they converged on the proceedings there, putting mike pence's life in jeopardy. we're going to hear a lot from the committee detailing all of this. trump's efforts, pence's move to resist. we're going to hear from legal advisers close to pence, including video testimony from mark short, his chief of staff. it'll be -- committee aides previewed to us -- a damning

indictment of the former president's efforts to make his vice president do his bidding and nearly cost him his life. >> george conway and jackie alemany, stand by. there's more reporting on this. ahead, the federal reserve announces the biggest interest rate increase in decades, but is it enough to tackle america's rising inflation and all the conflicting, different problems with the economy? steve rattner joins us ahead with charts, of course. and the latest from ukraine as the united states announces another round of military aid. is it enough? a look at what's included in this new weapons package. plus, children under the age of 5 are one step closer to being eligible for a coronavirus vaccine. we'll have the latest timeline for when those shots could be available. also this morning, senate

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live look at the white house at 35 past the hour. time to get up and get ready for work. so last block, joe talked about the emails ginni thomas, the wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas, sent to lawyer john eastman. well, "the new york times" is reporting on another email exchange, this one from eastman to another pro-trump lawyer. while discussing efforts to get the supreme court to hear an

election case from wisconsin, eastman reportedly wrote to another pro-trump lawyer, quote, so the odds are not based on the legal merits but an assessment of the justices' spines, and i understand there is a heated fight under way. the pro-trump attorney, replied, the justices may fear there will be wild chaos on january 6th, unless they rule by then, either way. the exchange took place on december 24th, five days after trump tweeted for his followers to come to the capitol on january 6th, posting, quote, will be wild. i mean, joe, it's really what they're putting together, by the way, is fascinating. this ginni thomas angle is so troubling to me.

i know that, you know, a wife and a husband can have two separate careers and lives, but she's married to a supreme court justice. the types of emails and texts that she's sending out are extremely disturbing. >> not only that, she is trying actively to undermine the constitution of the united states. she's trying actively to undermine the rule of law. she's trying actively to undermine a peaceful transition from one presidency to the next. she's trying to through out the votes of 80 million americans, to negate them. and, george conway, you look at what donald trump's lawyer who she is texting with, what he and his cohort are talking about. there's a tidy little definition for it. it's called fascism. call it mob rule, but this is

just pure, 100% proof, fascism, where you have trump's lawyer going, we may not win on the merits. another guy going, with mob rule, if there is enough chaos, if the justices are intimidated, even though we don't have the law on our side, maybe we can intimidate them through force and violence to rul our way. fascism, right, george? >> absolutely. thankfully, the supreme court did not give any of those lawsuits the time of day. so i hope to heaven sake all of this was john eastman blowing spoke and he wasn't really commenting on actual deliberations before the court. there wasn't really any evidence presented in anything the court

decided that there was any serious controversy at the court around the various cases trump lost up there. >> jackie, is the committee looking closer now because of the reporting around ginni thomas, about calling her in front of them as a witness? you put this together, the emails to eastman and the pro-trump attorney, and you look at the texts to mark meadows,ha effectively, into doing something to overturn the election. that's when mark meadows said the king of kings will triumph, comparing donald trump to jesus in that exchange. so she is a central figure in all this. her husband is a supreme court justice who, as joe pointed out, was the lone dissenting vote in the supreme court around january 6th, trying to protect donald trump. is she a central figure in the eyes of this committee? >> i think that the committee is getting there with her. as more and more information

comes in. we have to remember, this is a live, ongoing information. at the moment, our reporting does not show the committee is necessarily calling her in as a witness. because of the emails that recently have been delivered to the committee by john eastman, because of a ruling by federal court judge david carter that happened last week, the scope of her involvement in the efforts to overturn the election is wider than previously known. a hearing is focusing on her involvement. i have to give credit to my colleague, emma brown, who has been all over this story for months now. she's the person at the "washington post" who initially broke the stories of the emails ginni thomas was sending to state legislatures that were essentially advocating for the legal theory that john eastman was putting forth. obviously, it is fairly troubling. i think, george, i'm sorry to say, you're giving eastman too much of the benefit of a doubt. he was a prolific emailing. he knew what he was doing when

he was arguing that, you know, they might be more effective in terms of stirring up chaos in influening the justices and debate in that way. i think we'll find out much more. on the other side of this, i think what we're going to hear from judge luttig today about john eastman, that is as equally problematic, is the idea of the election nullification theory. state legislatures could essentially pick an alternative slate of electors and choose who won the election, send that to congress. that is actually picking up steam in conservative circles. i think luttig is going to do a job of basically methodically, systemically cutting through that and saying why it is unconstitutional. >> george, i want to follow up on the last question i asked about ginni thomas. and all these people. you knew john eastman, right? >> i met him maybe once. >> but you know of him. >> yeah, i knew of him,

absolutely. >> people in conservative circles. the question i have about him is the question i have about ginni thomas. did people see this coming? i knew ginni thomas when i was in congress, but my problem when was she was the establishment. all she was doing was defending the republican establishment. she was -- like, you know, we were sort of the rebels trying to balance the budget more quickly, trying to push, but she was -- she was always doing the establishment's bidding. now, she's, like, doing qanon theories, talking about crack and what happened? when did this transformation to a full-blown qanon conspiracy theorist and insurrectionist, when did that take place? >> i can't pinpoint it. i think she's been out there for years. behind the scenes, i think she's made a lot of people

uncomfortable. but i don't know when this whole -- when these people went into orbit. particularly, you know, eastman. eastman was always a little out there and there was a spectrum of attitudes about all sorts of things on the conservative side but it is not monolithic. people have gone into outer reality. that's what we see with eastman and ginni thomas. >> yeah. >> george conway and the "washington post"'s jackie alemany, thank you, both, very much. i am sure we'll be hearing back from both of you soon, as we walk through these hearings. coming up, we'll tell you about the key issues holding up a draft on gun legislation, and what the lead negotiators in the senate are saying about finishing the bill. plus, a new group of world leaders are on the ground in

kyiv showing support for ukraine as the fight for the eastern part of the country drags on. and we'll get insight on a major rate hike by the fed. "morning joe" economic analyst steve rattner is here with his charts. we'll be right back. hey businesses! you all deserve something epic! so we're giving every business, our best deals on every iphone - including the iphone 13 pro with 5g. that's the one with the amazing camera? yep! every business deserves it... like one's that re-opened! hi, we have an appointment. and every new business that just opened! like aromatherapy rugs! i'll take one in blue please! it's not complicated. at&t is giving new and existing business customers our best deals on every iphone. ♪ ♪ it's still the eat fresh refresh, and subway's refreshing their app. so you can customize your favorite footlong,

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>> he's doing well. we hope he is doing well. hope everybody that has covid out there today is doing well. a lot of people have covid. symptoms seem to be very mild. was going to get together yesterday afternoon with a friend, and his 14-year-old daughter got it. it's just still going around. >> it is. >> it's not -- again, we have vaccines, those boosted, it seems to be very mild. from everything i've heard. >> it is. but then there are other people who are laid up for a week and ten days, like it was two years ago. so it is not to be messed with. >> yeah. that's the news on the covid front. anthony fauci has covid. in other pandemic news, they renamed monkeypox. they said the name was racist. >> i don't get that. >> joining us now, "morning joe"

economic analyst, steve rattner. i want to ask you about that but -- >> i had covid in december. >> how was it? >> are you okay, steve? >> i am absolutely okay. it was uneventful. i thought i only had a cold. fortunately, we test in the office once a week. >> yeah. >> turned out i had covid. it was a bad cold. >> bad cold, yeah. >> wow. >> i'm trying to figure out, mika, do you think that one time i had covid -- we're trying to figure out if i had covid. i just don't get sick. >> you were so sick. this one week -- >> i don't get sick. >> -- joe was so sick, then i got it. but we tested, nothing, nothing. >> it was just like this. i was washing my hands and, suddenly, chills came over me. i flew -- literally, i got hit. >> i had to carry him. >> did you have to lay down for a couple days? >> yeah, couple days. >> i think you had covid. >> i had the chills. they were violent. it was out of nowhere. >> yeah. >> all the tests. ended up that i had whatever

they call monkeypox now. >> no, no, no. [ laughter ] >> joe -- >> david letterman was joking about that a decade ago. yes, ma'am? >> joe, there is maybe something to be said for the fact, and i am especially the queen of wearing a mask. i should wear a mask for practically everything now. doing the show, no. but, you know, i wear a mask when i travel. i think we all have been so separated and we've been so careful and masking, i wonder if just getting out into the world again, we're catching just normal viruses. i wonder if there is something to that. >> i think there is something to that. i also think, though, that, again, the lesson of china is if you have a zero covid tolerance policy, what you're going to do is drive down everybody's resistance. when they do get back out in the world, at some point, they're all going to get sick. i think everybody should wear -- you know, i'll tell you, when i go to a store and somebody is

wearing a mask, if it is an older person, i usually have one on, i'll put it on out of courtesy getting on and off of planes. they say when everybody is packed in, that's a smart time to do that. other than that, i mean, we have built, as scott gottlieb said, we have built a huge wall of resistance in this country. >> yeah. the problem that china has is they don't have an effective vaccine. >> yeah. >> if you don't have an effective vaccine, what are your choices? the reason people here don't get very sick is we're all double, triple, quadruple vaccinated and it becomes a mild cold. >> they can't even make a vaccine. i've been saying china is the next japan. i was right, wasn't i, steve? >> well, that's a longer conversation. >> china hasn't become the behemoth, in part, because of xi's choices. >> it's hurt their competitiveness. they shut down shanghai. they shut down shenzhen, a big exporting and manufacturing center. it hurts the economy.

they're in a box. what do you do? if you let out unvaccinated people, they get really sick, they don't have a vaccine and also don't have enough hospital facilities. they're underbuilt relative to the size of the population. >> the great world power we were afraid would overtake us and stomp us economically in five years. >> i wouldn't write them off. >> i heard the same about japan in '88 and '89 and it ended up not being true. my point is, like, we always talk down this country. you have to be a fool to talk down the united states economy. yes, we're going through a rough time. compare it to other countries, a lot of inflation across the globe. we're still -- i mean, let me ask you, would you trade the u.s. economy for any other economy right now? >> we're the best house in a bad neighborhood. >> pretty good neighborhood. it keeps going up. >> talking about the world. europe is a mess, a terrible mess at the moment. we talked about china. japan, as you said, has been kind of doing nothing for the last 30 years. it is a very big economy.

>> by the way, what has -- has lack of -- it's sort of the closed off nature of japan, has that caused their, just, lost three decades? is that something we should worry about, as far as immigration? i know we have an absolute colossal mess at the southern border. it has to be cleaned up. that said, though, you know, the fact we're not getting high-tech people, just begging people. as tom friedman wrote in a column ten years ago, we should give people from other countries who have post grad degrees, give them the degree and stamp a green card on the back and say, please open a business in north carolina. please open a business in texas. please open a business in connecticut. instead of sending them back home to open those businesses in new delhi. >> yeah, absolutely. japan is a very insular culture. the business culture is extraordinarily insular, meaning two things. they don't have the fresh talent coming in to revive their sector, and they just don't --

they do things their way. they're not that competitive. they're closed in. if you look at america and you look at microsoft, run by an immigrant. google, run by an immigrant. go company by company, and you see what immigrants have done to the quality of the business leadership in the country, it is extraordinary. >> we used to get the best and the brightest over here. we have to be a little more aggressive in getting these high-tech people that, again, are getting graduate degrees and we're sending them back. >> it is completely insane. >> let me ask, before we get to your charts, you talked about china. there's some talk about dropping the tariffs. how much would that help us in our inflation fight if we started dropping some of the tariffs on china donald trump implemented? >> it'd be at the margin, a few tenths of a percentage point. >> everything is at the margin? >> everybody going, thank you, joe biden, all of that, and i'm serious. you've been tough on biden. you were critical like larry

summers, saying we have to stop spending money. you've been tough on the biden administration, on democrats, but is most of this talk about, hey, this is all biden's fault, is that utter nonsense? on inflation? >> look, there are several culprits. there is biden and what he has done, and it is not irrelevant but it is not -- >> what is that? >> well, that's all the spending, basically. >> yeah. >> american rescue plan. the $1,400s, you and i talking about the government money we gave people to spend, and now they're trying to spend it so you get inflation. as we talked about the other day, left to its own devices, the administration would have proposed another $4 trillion, programs with taxes, but nonetheless, they still would have had -- but that's one issue. the second issue which we'll talk about is the fed, which also completely blew it. completely blew it in a way i haven't seen in 40 years from the fed. i love the fed, but nothing good to say about it. and it is absolutely true that there are unforced problems out there. putin, i wouldn't call this

putin's inflation, but no question ukraine and russia had a major impact on the inflation. >> same with food inflation. >> ukraine is a huge exporter of food. obviously, the oil problem with russia. a lot of other metals and things like that that come out of russia, prices have gone up a lot. anyway. >> since you've been on the show, and i know we have to go to break, we can in a second, one final point. since you started coming on this show, we were very critical of the bush administration spending too much money, deficit too high, debt too high. we were critical of the obama administration. deficit is too high. debt is too high. really critical of the trump administration. they broke the record for deficits even before the pandemic. how much is all of that big spending, along with biden's big spending, cumulativecumulativelh has it added up? >> i don't think some of the earlier spending matters much. once you spend it, it's gone. it affected the economy. it's added to the debt, which is

another problem you and i talk about a lot. we have a serious debt problem, not in terms of a crisis but having to deal with it in subsequent generations. the most recent round of suspending, some under trump, some under biden that causes the pressure on prices this year. >> we'll be right back. we have, of course, steve rattner to take you through the charts, show you how painful the economy is going to be over the next couple months with inflation. shocking revelations on january 6th. you have, of course, a republican member of congress who has been lying through his teeth over the past several months about tours he gave on january 5th when the capitol was closed. an inspector that said he was going to rip nancy pelosi's hair off the top of her head. said he was coming after other democratic leaders. taking pictures of entrances, of staircases, of other strategic points of entry. we're going to see what the january 6th committee is going to do about it. also, more on mike pence.

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mike pence, if he doesn't, it'll be a sad day for our country, because you're sworn to uphold our constitution. >> i heard this week that president trump said i had the right to overturn the election. president trump is wrong. i had no right to overturn the election. >> that will be the theme of today's hearing in the january 6th attack on the capitol. donald trump's pressure campaign on mike pence to overturn the 2020 election. we will lay out what to expect

from day three of these fascinating public hearings. plus, markets rallied after the fed approved the biggest interest rate hike in 30 years yesterday. those gains may not hold with futures falling around 2% this morning. we are watching wall street. plus, the efforts to strike a deal on gun legislation. the issues holding things up. with us, we have u.s. special correspondent for bbc news katty kay. host of the podcast "on brand with donnie deutsch," donnie deutsch. and president and ceo of the national urban league, former mayor of new york city, mark m moriales is with us. steve rattner is still with us, as well. good to have you all with us this morning. joe, these hearings, i'm telling you, i was worried that americans were moving on and that they didn't care.

i'm not seeing that. i'm hearing a lot of conversations. it doesn't just feel like video you've seen over and over again, that you become desensitized to. we are hearing why this was wrong to the very core. >> it seems we've been talking about things that matter greatly to the health of this democracy, to the resiliency of the united states constitution and, yet, it seems at times that most americans just are tuned out, don't seem to care as much, are understandably focused on the important things in their life, being able to pay their rent, being able to take care of their children, making sure that they can, you know, get through school. >> yeah. >> making sure that, you know, their family is doing better. so people haven't been as focused, and that is understandable, especially wave

after wave of news. it's really bad. but americans have stopped here. i found it interesting, i showed you a tweet i saw from kaitlin flanagan, who is pretty realist about an awful lot of things. writes for "the atlantic." i think an extraordinary writer. after the first day of the hearing, she said, you know, finally, there are hearings that are every bit as compelling as the hearings my parents watched when they were watching the watergate hearings. one hearing after another, overpromising, underperforming, here are some compelling hearings that matter. donnie, i have to say, you know, i never saw it coming. i thought they were going to go through the motions. i thought we were going to be shocked and stunned and deeply saddened, as we should be shocked, stunned, and deeply saddened when people are trying to overthrow the government, but americans would yawn, get on with their summer, get kids out of school, not pay attention.

numbers have been staggering. opening night, as we said a couple days ago, you have an audience about twice as big as the final game of the world series. about twice as big as the nba championship. about four times as big as anything donald trump got when he did "the apprentice" in primetime in his finale seasons. it's been stunning. why is it? you're the ad guy, the branding guy. why have americans stopped for this? >> i think they've stopped for it because part of it is the images that have been being run every single day since january 6th, which is so important, which this show does and other shows do. you just had to see what's going on behind the scenes there. the footage we've already seen, it is a visual world. >> horrifying images. >> it's a story that -- they stay with you. you needed to peel it back. what has been effective, and the

american people have a b.s. detecter, there hasn't been grandstanding. just the facts, a drag nut thing. people don't tune in and say, i can't listen to these assholes. i can't listen to this -- >> do they say that, donny? maybe they do. listen, i know it is relaxed around the set. we're on the air. >> excuse me, guys. i'm sorry. it's a kid show and everybody is eating the count chocula. when you compare this to mueller, the story line itself, the democracy on the line has just been stunning. other thing i think are the unsung heros that have emerged from this. the hershmans, the rosins, just seeing these behind the scenes americans who stood up to this brazen insurrection. it is compelling, must-see tv.

>> you know the person on the stand lying, all these other ha around trump are lying, and you're just watching as those lies crumble. >> the other important layer here, and this is strategic by the committee, is the voices are president trump's advisers. the voices are republicans. the voices are members of president trump's own family, indicting him. i think a lot of us expected the witnesses to return interference for the president or equivocate a little bit. they have been very clear about what happened leading up to january 6th and on that day and their attempts to stop president trump. they've been very clear that president trump knew exactly what he was doing. knew he hadn't won the election. and they knew he did nothing that day to defend the capitol. >> hid advisers flipped on him without being granted immunity. i think they flipped because they recognized that this january 6th is different. what makes it different?

donny talks about the images. the use of violence. richard nixon never used violence. this is a different chapter in american history when there's been violence to accomplish the means. that's stunned the american people. democrats deserve great credit in how they've organized and orchestrated these hearings. there's been a focus on evidence. video evidence. testimonial evidence. i thought bill barr, who, you know, i don't always agree with, was frank and candid. i think a guy like bill barr, like many others said, this is about my reputation and what i think about the country, not about fealty, loyalty, and a blind fashion to donald trump. i don't think there needs to be a referral to the justice department. i think anyone can see that there has been criminal activity undertaken by the former president of the united states. >> we talked about a lack of

grandstanding. we talked an awful lot of liz cheney, bennie thompson let the evidence speak for itself. no grandstand. doing what a great chairman does. he is staying in the background and letting the weight of the evidence do his talking for him. it's really impressive. >> how many times have we all watched a congressional hearing, democrats and republicans, and rolled our eyes at the performance art that takes place? we haven't seen it. the tone has been right. here's the video. here are the facts. it continues today with another hearing into the attack on the capitol. today will focus on efforts to pressure former vice president mike pence into overturning the 2020 presidential election. and a campaign that ultimately put the former vice president's life in danger. aides telling nbc news the hearing will hit four main themes. the theory that pence had the right to unilaterally reject the certified electors. he said he did not.

how donald trump led the pressure campaign despite being told by advisers it was illegal. how that campaign contributed to the violence that endangered pence's life. and the ongoing threat to democracy from people who still claim the election was stolen. ahead of today's hearing, the select committee released new video that shows republican congressman barry loudermilk of georgia giving a tour of the complex the day before the attack, on the 5th. among those taking part in the congressman's tour, a man the committee says was filmed making verbal threats against top democratic lawmakers, threats of violence on the day of the attack. take a look. >> it has begun. here at the washington monument, washington, d.c. say hello to facebook. >> hey, what's going on, man. glad to be here, bro. >> our fearless leader. >> check out the flag i made, guys. see it? there you go, baby. it's for a certain person. >> that's right.

that's for somebody special. somebody special, ha-ha. all right. we are basically at the capitol. probably close to 2 million true american patriots. they are swarming and converging, mainly from constitution avenue, but from all routes in. there is no escape, pelosi, schumer, nadler. we're coming for ya. we're coming in like white on rice for pelosi, nadler, schumer, even you, aoc.

we're coming to take you out. we'll pull you out by your hairs. how about that, pelosi? might as well make yourself another appointment. when i get done with ya, you're going to need a shine up upon that bald head. >> man, talk about scalping speaker nancy pelosi. the video shows congressman loudermilk giving the tour. he's in the suit with the mask. some individuals are seen taking photos of staircases, tunnels, security checkpoints used daily by lawmakers and their staff members. to underline again, joe, what we heard from officer harry dunn a few minutes ago, the capitol was closed to the public on january 5th. this tour shouldn't have taken place at all, let alone in the places it did. >> somebody we have on the show all the time, former cia agent mark -- sorry -- he tweeted

this. i haven't seen all the footage but i've seen some. after running ops my entire career, seeing what pre-ops casing is about, the video forces a need for more inquiry. it shouldn't have been dismissed. odd capitol police statement. anybody that's done this type of work before sees. as mark said, a cia guy who has been doing this his entire career, says it's obvious they're casing the joint. they're taking photos. again, you have a member of congress lying about an insurrection against the united states of america, against our government, trying to overthrow an election, overthrow american democracy, stop the peaceful transition. he's got a guy who is casing the joint where cops were brutalized

and beaten. he's still lying through his teeth. >> when first asked about it, he said he didn't give a tour at all. ask yourself why he'd lie about giving a tour on january 5th. >> that's why there has to be consequences for the leaders who were part of this, those who planned it. there have been several hundred people, i believe, indicted or charged already. there have been people who were actively involved on the ground at the capitol. the people who planned it, aided and abetted it, the reason why there's got to be consequences, joe, or it happens again. or people believe that this is an acceptable thing. when you have people calling it a dust-up, dismissing it and saying move on, these pictures are so powerful. without consequences, you send the message that this is acceptable. >> by the way, the politicians, donald trump, all the others, all the other crack pots that were using this as a grift to

make money, they knew exactly what they were doing. >> hundreds of millions. >> as angry as i get persiana personally seeing the people on the mall, i don't think those people were there as part of a grift. those people were there because they had been convinced by someone they voted for, by someone they believed in, that -- >> it was organized political activity. this was -- >> right. they believed the election had been stolen. that's the only reason they'd go up there. they're not going up there for the grift. and so the idea that we send them to prison and allow donald trump to make a $250 million on the big grift -- >> and pay people $60,000 to speak at a rally. >> two-minute speak, pay a member of the family $60,000 to give a two-minute introduction of don jr., to continue to give money.

again, donald trump raised $250 million off the big lie in the biggest of grift. the question is, why is he still at mar-a-lago? >> and where is the money? >> and these people, a lot can't afford lawyers, can't afford what they're going through. why are these people in jail? now, they should be in jail, but they aren't the ones that ran the conspiracy. this would be like putting jim and tammy faye bakker's dupes. sadly, my grandma was one of them, writing check after check after check to the ptl club. like, this would be like saying, oh, well, jim and tammy lied forever. built a corrupt ministry. it's like blakinging blaming th people who were victimized by the lie. >> there has to be consequences. >> there has to be consequences requester donald trump and

everybody from the top-down. not just the cops who were beaten, the cops who died of a stroke the next day, the cops who committed suicide because they went through that day. >> right. >> but also for the people who were lied to, whose lives had been forever destroyed, not because they faced justice, because we still do have yus in the united states of america, but because it was donald trump who put them at the capitol and, by extension, put them in their jail cell. >> and he keeps his supporters on the line by calling them patriots, by flattering them, calling them beautiful people. there was a lot of love that day. what he is really doing is taking the money out of their pockets 20 bucks at a time, to the tune of $250 million, and letting a bunch of them go to prison while he sits at mar a la lago and plays golf. katy kay, one of the people alleged to be on the tour with

congressman loudermilk. it speaks to the crowd, how seriously they took their purpose, that they'd been sent by president trump, prepared to commit violence against members of congress. >> yeah. there's still a few questions surrounding this video. we don't know yet whether those people who were on the tour and who are speaking about taking out nancy pelosi, taking out aoc and chuck schumer, whether think actually went into the capitol. perhaps we'll hear more about that when we get the committee hearings today. but we don't know whether they were kind of talking tough, which they certainly are talking tough when you listen to the video, or whether they actually went into the building and were part of the people who were there saying this were going to hang mike pence once we were inside the building. there's still some questions surrounding this. questions certainly for congressman loudermilk. why did he deny he had taken a tour? it's not just one family with one kid. there's other people hanging on on this tour, too. i was texting with a democratic member of congress whose office

is in the area last night and who was there on january 6th during the insurrection, had been hiding in his office. he said, you know, it is chilling to see them taking photographs of the staircase where my office is think, what were they planning to do? what was the intent? nobody goes to that staircase. nobody photographs that staircase. it is not remotely interesting to anybody. you know, for a lot of members of congress who are watching this, it revives memories of that day. they were scared for their lives. i was calling them on the day. they were scared. they didn't know if they were going to get out alive. to see a fellow member of congress with a group taking photographs that potentially led to your office door, i think it is chilling. >> donny, we've been talking about how americans have tuned into january 6th, but let's change topics here. something they're paying attention more closely to, gas prices. when they try to fill up the gas

tank, they go to the grocery store, inflation. we're experiencing something we haven't experienced since the 1970s, early '80s, and that is just runaway inflation. politicians alive today, most politicians alive today, haven't had to ever deal with that. they're having to deal with it now, and it's caught a lot of people off guard. >> yeah. the scariest thing, and steve will talk about it, would be stagflation. inflation continues to rise and we're heading to a recession. in my life, and most of my friends are on wall street, they've never seen this before. it is -- you have jamie dimon talking about a hurricane coming. the big political issue is going to be come midterms, and even into '24, what's more powerful? our democracy in peril, the craziness going on with roe v. wade, guns, we know about the insurrection, versus, this is how much my gas is, how much my -- and i'm concerned.

unfortunately, the gas prices and bread will be more compelling. >> marc, let's talk about it. we've run for office. we've asked people for their votes. you know, the american people are pretty damn smart. they balance it all. they're going to look at the inflation. they're going to look at the cost of their groceries. they're going to look at the cost of rent. they're going to make their decisions, as they should, based on what's best for them. but they're also going to look at the crazy. they'll look at january 6th. they're also going to look at the fact republicans ignore 90% of americans on gun laws. they're also going to look at the fact that republicans ignore 70% of americans on choice. those may not be the overriding factors, but they lump it all together. it ain't northwest florida, and it ain't new orleans, but i will tell you, in france, this election, i think, may be instructive. they said midron -- not midron,

macron -- you can tell how old i am -- macron doesn't understand and le pen does, but she's too crazy. they said, we can't trust he le pen. >> we don't know where the economy will be in '23, '24. >> yeah. >> number two, it is easy to criticize the people in power because of the economy, but there's no alternative plan to address inflation except to what? recession? unemployed americans. the prospect of stagnation is something the fed and fiscal experts and the business community have to be overly concerned about. i remember stagflation. >> rough. >> it is extremely painful. so the american people are going to be uncomfortable with the

inflation we see, but i would submit to you that one thing that's different today with this inflation is being significantly produced by factors beyond the borders of the united states. ukraine, china, those are having material impacts in the slowdown of the supply chain. i question whether the fed has the singular power in its hands by simply raising interest rates to end inflation without producing a severe recession. i'm concerned about that. but i think, joe, honestly, i think american democracy, the survival and the ability of american democracy to guide this country into the 21st century is going to be the issue people vote on. we're seeing the normalization of violence. let's look at january 6th. but then look at these 30 guys who were going out to idaho, i believe it was.

>> yeah. >> to attack a pride fest. they'd organized themselves. let's look at this guy in buffalo who was charged by the department of justice just yesterday. he had organized. he was part of a movement which was about an ideology. that, i think, is the great threat to american democracy. the normalization of hate. the normalization of an anti-democratic, authoritarian, nationalist point of view. i think, in the long run, that's really going to be what americans will vote on. >> i agree. they're enabled and emboldened now by gathering online. steve rattner's charts have been marinating, cooked low and slow, and now they're ready. a three-quarter lift yesterday in the interest rate by the fed. too little, too late, you say, by the fed. what else do you see in the number? >> the fed was way behind. the market pushed the fed into

the three quarter. we call it 75 basis points in the lingo, increase, because of what happened monday when the market rolled over. so what you can see here, the fed, four times a year, issues revised projections for various economic indicators. the question about stagflation, you can see that the fed's protections are heading toward that are heading there. the december and march projections, june projections, you can see how badly they got it wrong, how much it deteriorated, and it's doubled the last six months. gdp, to the question of a slowdown or stagflation growth rate has come down by half over the period of time. the unemployment rate, they're keeping it roughly the same. the second thing they're telling up of this chart is that their interest rates are going to be higher for longer. as you look at the three lines, the earlier one, the second one and the most recent one, you can see interest rates just getting higher and higher. i would say there are many of us

who think the fed is being unrealistic about what is likely to have to happen. marc, i wish i could wave a magic wand and say, here's how we'll fix the problem. unfortunately, maybe this is 19th century medicine, but the only way we know to do it, raise the rates, slow the economy down, and take what camcomes wi it. >> we have to be careful with placing the pain on the average american. it'd be catastrophic if we hit a high spike in unemployment, to combine with the sort of political divisions the country faces today. i think the fed has got to be careful. i'm a little bit, though -- you know, i want to challenge something you said earlier. that is, if for some reason, instead of responding to the pandemic by not spending, we had not invested in helping people keep their jobs, invested in the

vaccine, invested in addressing food insecurity, we may have had a calamity worse than the great depression during the pandemic. so i think that what happened with fiscal policy is there was a backward look to the fact that perhaps the fiscal stimulus post the '08, '09, '10 recession was not significant enough. i think the steps that were taken, you can argue whether they went too far, but i would argue that it was necessary to ensure the american people survived a great crisis. >> sure. i would totally agree with that. we had to do something. we weren't going to let people starve or die in the streets or whatever, go without food. but there's a question of degree. we pay our leaders to make the right decisions. in some cases, they really blew it here. they went too far on fiscal stimulus. the fed went way too far. they drove interest rates to zero. they bought hundreds of --

trillions of dollars of securities in the market to force interest rates down and created -- >> do you think the supply chain challenges with china posted a recession foreseeable, and how much does it do with the inflation? >> that was another miss by policymakers. they did not see, to a significant extent, supply chain problems coming the way they came. no question. also, we created a bit of the problems because we created this extra demand. we talk about the port of los angeles being so congested and they can't unload ships. 20% more goods are coming through the port than normally because people are buying so much stuff. if you put 20% more stuff through the port of los angeles, what do you think is going to happen? congested. >> maybe the stimulus checks should have been given only to the unemployed. >> could have been means tested better. >> it was politically popular to give checks to everyone. >> i don't want to minimize the difficulty of the job our leaders had in trying to figure out how to deal with the pandemic, but, you know, history is going to judge all this. they're going to judge the fed

very poorly. they'll have some questions about what the biden administration did. they will accept the fact that, between ukraine and supply chain, there were some unexpected developments. >> and we talk about joe manchin a couple days ago. one of joe manchin's continuing frustration with progressives, while they were talking about what type of relief packages were going out there, is they kept setting the number so high that he was saying, why would we pay somebody who makes -- why would you give them relief? instead, saying, let's focus on the truly disadvantaged. >> focus on the people the mayor is talking about. >> let's talk about the people in west virginia. look at the people in west virginia, what the mean salary is, and focus the spending. >> joe negotiated the package down to $1.75 trillion and walked away. >> yeah. >> i thought that was really an act of bad faith. if you were just going to be

that, you should have said, i'm not going to negotiate. we sent messages he could live with $1.75 trillion and walked away. >> i understand that. i also understand that package, if, you know, joe wanted to repeal the trump tax cuts, those packages would be paid for. >> right. >> wouldn't have an inflationary impact. we don't know the back story to that. i'm just talking generally, though, about an argument. we can just talk about progressives in congress. progressives in congress wanted to write checks out to people who didn't need the checks. it's that simple. >> i guess you could also argue -- >> hold on a second. you just told me -- >> uh-huh. >> you just told me if we just give the checks to the truly disadvantaged, we might not have the inflation mess we have right now. i'm agree with you. >> right. >> let's find a middle ground, my friend. >> my point, joe, is it appeared as though a middle ground was being forged on the biden plan.

until manchin, unprecipitously, walked away. >> should people making thousands have gotten the checks? >> the disadvantaged. politically, giving checks to everybody polled well. >> well, giving checks to everybody might have polled well, it also gave us inflation. >> that's why i think it was done. it's a lesson to the learned. when you do have a response to an economic downturn or crisis, you ought to focus on the truly needy. >> exactly. we agree on that. steve, this is why americans, though, were skeptical when crises come. is it going to be targeted? are they going to throw money in the breeze, which is what happened here? they threw money in the breeze, and we have inflation. by the way, we had a lot of -- well, let me talk about you. you had people mocking you.

mocking larry summers when you all were saying in real time, this is going to be inflationary. don't do it. they didn't listen to you. mocked you, ridiculed you, calling you chicken little. you were right. they were wrong. >> we had 40 years of no inflation, and some economists thought it was impossible to create inflation again. let's bring donald trump back into this. part of why the checks ran out, donald trump ran around georgia the end of -- >> thank you, steve. >> -- 2020 and said, we have to send $2,000 to every american. if you're joe biden, you come in, you want to be pushed to the right by donald trump? no, you have to stay, you know, in his lane. so that's part of it. but the second thing i'd say, marc, not to get too -- but the deal that manchin didn't do, the $1.75 trillion would have added $350 billion, roughly, to the deficit over the first three years. might have made it up later, but it would have added to the inflation problem we're having right now.

it wasn't a perfectly well-constructed package. >> mika, this obvious is a global problem, not isolated just to the united states. >> of course. i think, you know, that the global factors in this economy are very vivid and very understandable to the american people. it's ukraine. you look at the problems with ukraine from supply chain to food insecurity to everything that's happening there. it's china. i mean, these are very vivid, understandable, global factors what are impacting countries around the world. katty kay, i think it is upon the biden administration to really make it clear to the american people what the global factors are that are playing into the american economy, and what the horrid days are to come, but also to ask republicans to come to the table. you know, have a roundtable discussion. have the cameras rolling, saying, these are the global implications of the economy.

let's spell it out for you. tell us, now, what are your ideas? because you love to go on television and talk about biden's economy. you love to go on television and talk about biden's global crisis, biden's energy crisis, biden's gas prices, but i'm asking you to come talk to me about your ideas to deal with this economy that is impacted by multiple global challenges. and, to me, i don't think the administration has done that. i think they've actually tried to make it sound like they're working on the economy and will fix it. you can't fix it that easily. >> you're right. there hasn't been a great communications job on either of those fronts, mika. i've just come back from a tour of the west of the country, wyoming and arizona, speaking to people on both sides of the aisle. the first thing that everybody mentions to me is inflation. beyond january 6th, beyond the

2020 election, the really driving force out there is the price of gas. americans are still spending a lot. everything is full. the holiday spots are all full. but they are very conscious of inflation, and they're blaming the administration for it. they're not looking at the fact that, actually, inflation in europe is pretty much commensurate with inflation here in the u.s. this is a global problem. it is to do with china shutting down. it is to do with the war on ukraine. it is not going to get better any time soon, partly because we'll have a food price hike when we get to the autumn when the ukrainians should be reaping their harvest and they're not doing that. there hasn't been a communications effort or an effective communications efforts from the administration. people are blaming this on joe biden. people i spoke to out west are saying this is joe biden's fault, and it is a very easy one for the republicans to jump on. i don't think you'll get the republicans come to the table and say, yes, let's work on this together. this is a national problem. they clearly see this in the

short term as a vote weapon erw them in the midterm elections. it is polling high as an issue of concern, and the democrats in the white house might be trying to say to the republicans, you have to try to fix this, too. this is not that easy. but political strategy will mean -- political cynicism, if you'd like to call it that, will mean republicans will use this for votes in november and probably effectively. >> inflation is high right now in britain. it's higher everywhere from the netherlands to poland. it is high across the world. also, i loved mika's idea, mr. mayor, and as somebody who has run for office and run a city and dealt with your fair share of political opponents, i love the idea of saying to the republicans, because they really don't have an idea -- >> where is your idea? where is your plan? >> all right. this is biden's inflation. the gas prices are all my fault. bread going up, it is all my fault?

okay, fine. all right. let's just -- okay, fine. come to the white house. >> by the way, it got more severe in the way you dealt with it. >> come to the white house. we'll have a roundtable. come on, mitch. come on, kevin. editors of all of the newspapers that are blaming me. come on, op-ed writers, everybody blaming me for inflation. i want you guys to tell me what to do about inflation, and i'll have a notepad. i'm going to write it down. >> joe, in politics -- >> we'll put a bill together. >> you can't allow your opponents to force you to run against yourself. the way you run against yourself, you defend a set of problems that are significant. where is the alternative plan? doesn't exist. the problems are so challenging and so difficult, there is no magic bullet. so the biden team and the biden administration and democrats have to avoid allowing this to simply be a referendum on themselves and make it a

comparison. >> yeah. >> between what they've done and an alternative plan, lack thereof. >> marc mariel, other than the others at the table, guest of the month. you need to come back. >> yes. >> he is the best. >> you are the best. >> he's still my mayor of new orleans, by the way. >> thank you. >> same here. >> best wife ever. >> steve, best charts ever. >> among your best. >> in the words of harold ford, i agree with both of you. [ laughter ] >> we love you, harold. still ahead on "morning joe," former microsoft ceo steve ballmer joins us with his take on the state of the u.s. economy. that should be interesting. also ahead, more on what we'll see in today's hearing of the january 6th select committee. expected to focus on donald trump's push for his vice president, mike pence, to overturn the election results. plus, we will take a look at how the so-called big lie has

made its way to elections down at the local level. also following other big stories on capitol hill, including the stalled negotiations for now in the senate on gun legislation. and the $1 billion of new u.s. military aid for ukraine. we'll discuss with majority whip dick durbin. busy morning. request"morning joe," coming right back. “shoot it?” suggests the scientists. so they shoot it. hmm... back to the miro board. dave says “feed it?” and dave feeds it. just then our hero has a breakthrough. "shoot it, camera, shoot a movie!" and so our humble team saves the day by working together. on miro. before nexium 24hr, anna could only imagine a comfortable night's sleep

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the conspiracy theories about the 2020 presidential election are trickling down to local politic, as well. in a new report, vice news chief political correspondent liz landers examines now election lies are impacting one race in colorado. >> here we are, the people telling you that the election system does not deserve or have our trust, nor does anyone who stands by it.

>> to believe otherwise is to be a conspiracy theorist or to be deemed a domestic terrorist. really? america witnessed vote flipping realtime on the television. >> do you trust the 2020 election result? >> i do not. >> ma'am, those election tampering charges -- >> excuse me? >> okay. >> thank you. >> please don't touch me, sir. >> you were touching me. sorry. >> you don't think the fbi had reason to investigate? all charges are fake? >> they're all drummed up, every one of them. >> liz landers joins us now. talk more about what we were just seeing there in colorado. what's going on? is it part of a much bigger strategy? >> i think it is, mika. look, joe biden, president biden, won colorado handily in the presidential election, but there are pockets that are conservative. one of the areas is colorado springs where we were. we really have seen this take root all over the country.

we've seen proud boys running in various races, school board races. in el paso county in colorado, there is a group of election deniers. they're running for various seats in that county right now. one of them is running for the county coroner there. it is an elected position in el paso county. there's currently a republican there who is the county coroner, dr. kelly, who we profile some in this piece. his opponent an election ddenie, and that is her platform in the race. she is running alongside and attending events with other election deniers in colorado, including tina peters, who is that candidate for secretary of state that i asked in that clip about her own charges of election tampering that have been brought against her. and this woman who is running against the county coroner there has had movie screenings about the 2,000 mules movie, which we've seen brought up in the january 6th committee hearings.

so this is really trickled down to the local level, even in races that have nothing to do with election administration. >> and so how are the -- where are these people coming from? who is galvanizing them, so to speak, to do this from the bottom up? >> yeah. i think some of this is from the bottom up, and some of this is also from the top down, with people like mike lindell. mike lindell has been supporting a number of these candidates. he's given financial support to tina peters there in colorado. so some of this is a coordinated effort, i think, from national election denying figures. but i think some of these people really do believe this. you had part of the clip there from the el paso county commission meeting, where we heard, i don't know, 40, 50 people stand up and talk about what they perceived to be the stolen election.

so there are a lot of people i think are still reading the conspiracies online about the dominion voting systems. another thing that has been debunked in the january 6th committee hearings. but it is still breaking through and reaching people across the country. >> liz, i've just come back from arizona and wyoming, speaking to people who, very much like the people you spoke to in colorado, have a string of reasons for believing that the 2020 election is stolen. whenever you point the counter reasons, there are arguments, you can get into a vortex of argument and counterargument, but they really do believe it was stolen. they're well organize. my sense from arizona is there was more energy in the race for the secretary of state on the republican side, the governor side. i don't know whether you felt that in colorado, but this notion the election was stolen is proving to be a huge election motivator for republicans at local and statewide office. >> i would absolutely agree with

that. i think you just brought up that when you talk with people about this, and i experienced this, too, that there is always a, okay, but what about this? that was something brought up in the hearings we've heard recently, that lawyers who try to tell former president trump the conspiracies he was hearing were not true, he'd say, okay, but what about this one, and move on to the next one. that is something i definitely hear across the country, as well, right now. youmentioned arizona. i think the races in august will be telling. there is an election denying running for secretary of state, too. yes, this is a big, motivating factor, and i think that's why this woman is running for county connor in el paso county. >> wow. wow. chief political correspondent for vice news, liz landers. thank you. great reporting. come back. you can watch liz's entire report tonight on vice news. so the mistrust and skepticism of government doesn't end on election day.

many voters lack faith in institution, in part, because they don't have clarity about what is exactly happening. our next guest is working to change that. the non-partisan group, usa facts, is shedding light on the numbers as part of an effort to make government data easier to understand for the american people. joining us now, the founder of usa facts, former microsoft ceo steve ballmer, who will also want to talk about the economy. first, tell us, what is usa facts? >> it is an initiative that i started in 2015. i was frustrated. i'd just retired at microsoft. my wife and i were scaling dramatically our philanthropy. we're focused on kids and families in need. the first thing i wanted to know is what is government doing, and where does philanthropy fill in? finding the numbers to understand what's going on with crime or education, what poverty

really looks like in the country, where government taxes are coming in, spending going out, whoop, that was quite a challenge. if i wanted to have known more about a business, you can turn to documents with numbers in them, 10ks, annual reports, and i decided i was going to go do that and try to put in place some tools that people could use for decision making, using only government's own data. >> you know, there is a brilliant idea, steve. i remember when i first got into congress, there was something called thomas, which, at the time, 1994, seemed like a really brilliant concept. you could search anything, any of the debates in congress and other legislation, but it seemed to have just stopped there. whether you tried to get information from the v.a., social security administration, or other areas, i mean, the

pentagon, they are working with data that looks like it is straight out of 1993/1994. why has there been such a reluctance by federal bureaucracies, by congress, to update the systems, to make the information accessible to americans? >> frankly, my guess, there is no forcing function. there is no vehicle that demands that our politicians sign up and say, i understand, i've read these numbers. i think they're accurate. that's what businesses have to do. the forcing function is people have to acknowledge that the information that they want is complete and that they stand by it. you see some of that, of course, in what's going on in voting, not an area we focus in on. but if you can't believe in the data and you can't have to attest to the accuracy -- not a

forecast about the future. everybody can make their own forecast. at least information about what's happened, those are knowable, objective numbers. we have to make government sign up to attest to them and use them. >> good morning, steve. i think there are so many people in this country who are thirsty for this, which is to say, just pure accurate data and information. there's so much media, but a lot of it has a slant. a lot of it americans don't trust. how do you break through in the media ecosystem, where people are watching certain channels, reading certain newspapers? some may have bias to them one way or the other. some others may not be true at all. how do you get this information out there in a way you did with, you know, when you started microsoft? you learned how to use data and put it out into the world. how do you do that in this climate? >> well, ironically, i think there are a few simple techniques. number one, you make the data

very findable through search engines. just in case people with trail looking for it. we put the data out through social media to attract people to look at it. right, left, we're looking to find everybody who wants an accurate picture. that may not be everybody in the united states, but people ought to know that background checks have surged. people ought to know that the murder and suicide rate remains constant. people should know these things as they participate in the important debates. no matter what side of the argument you take, and we'll take those facts and push them out and try to get people to understand a broader set of data with just a little bit more historical context. >> steve, donny deutsch. nice to chat with you. first off, a little bit of a shift. we're going through a low point economy that, in my adult life, we haven't seen.

it'll continue to get worse. how bad will it get? secondly, speaking of getting better, what are you doing offseason to make sure the clippers can de-throne the warriors in the west? >> first, i'm going to challenge you, donny. take a look at our annual report. this is not the worst economy you've seen in your lifetime. i know that because you're an adult. if you go back and just take a look at the information, whether it is 2009 or going back even further, i'm not saying things are good, but when we give context, even, for example, fuel prices. fuel prices have been inflation adjusted this high or higher over the course of the last 14, 15 years. so, you know, where will the economy go? on behalf of usa facts, i make no forecast. the thing i worry about, though, is whiplash. if you look at the history, government action causes surges

and declines. it seems to me that we're in one of those declines right now. whether it is actions of the fed, actions of fiscal stimulus, whether it is regulation. then we have these other shocks on top of it. to me, one of the key issues will be what do we do, for example, with immigration policy? we had a steady supply, growing supply of people working in the country. yesterday, immigration was off over 1 million people in one year. today, we depend upon immigration as a source of labor. are we going to open our borders again or not? if not, we'd see more wage inflation than we would otherwise. now, as to your other question, man, the clips are coming out firing this year. that's a basketball question, everybody. i would say, and this is not by the numbers, not usa facts

style, but we'll have a really good team, donny. really good. >> we'll keep an eye on that. steve, i wanted to circle back to immigration. i talked to steve rattner about it and, of course, we're not talking about illegal immigration. we're not talking about the mess at the southern border. we were talking about japan and how their lost decade went into two lost decade, went into three lost decades. we're talking about how it is a closed off society. it's a closed off society as far as business goes. it is a closed off society as far as immigration goes. maybe that worked in the '60s and '70s and '80s. it obviously -- and republicans, people like ronald reagan, talked about this all the time. the "wall street journal" editorial page talked about this all the time. you have thomas friedman who said, when somebody comes here and they have a post grad degree, instead of kicking them out of the country so they can take their talents overseas, we should staple a green card to the back of the diploma, say, thank you very much, create

american jobs. with your background, i have to think you're a real champion of this approach for legal immigration, right? >> i very much am. i certainly am for high-skilled immigration based upon my experience at microsoft. we want the most talented technical talent in the world, here in the u.s., for their jobs and the surrounding jobs. a couple facts, if you look at the growth and population in this country, immigration growth is as significant as natural growth from births and deaths. also, if you look at the percentage of people who were born outside the united states in our country today, we are at a 13.9% level. that level has not been that high since 1920. bottomed out in 1970. gdp growth, it's productivity growth, basically, times the number of people, growth in

that, times inflation. we've got to make sure our growth is coming from people and productivity, not from inflation. >> thank you so much. thank you for this project you've taken a part in. it is going to be a great assistance to so many americas. thank you. thank you for being here. >> thanks for having me, guys. up next, the january 6th committee has new evidence on the wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas. we'll have more about the emails tying ginni thomas to a main figure in the plot to overturn the election. also ahead in our third hour, new york city mayor eric adams and new jersey governor phil murphy are with us. they're teaming up to bring in the world cup to the big apple and the garden state. we'll see what their plans are. we're back in 90 seconds. what a shot.

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live look at capitol hill. top of the third hour of "morning joe." hours away from the third hearing into the january 6th capitol attack. today, the house committee will focus on donald trump's efforts to pressure the vice president, mike pence, into overturning the

election. we're also following the debate over new gun safety legislation, as senators hit roadblocks in trying to draft the bill. we'll talk to the number two senate democrat, dick durbin, in a moment about that. and the latest from ukraine as the u.s. pledges more aid. the leaders of france, germany, and italy arrive in kyiv overnight to show that europe is still committed to the fight for peace. bbc's katty kay is still with it. let's get to today's january 6th committee hearing. garrett haake as more on what to expect today. >> reporter: the january 6th committee unveiling new evidence this morning that they say shows donald trump's plot to pressure his vice president into joining an illegal scheme to throw out the 2020 election results and stay in power. >> if mike pence does the right thing, we win the election. >> this was a coordinated effort. donald trump started to focus

his attention on january 6th and mike pence and wanted him to violate the constitution. >> reporter: congressman pete aguilar will present the committee's findings in this afternoon's hearing. >> hang mike pence! hang mike pence! >> reporter: as rioters broke into the capitol, pence was whisked off the senate floor. >> up in his ceremonial office. what's going on out here? what is happening in the room with the vice president? >> 2:13 p.m. they breach the building. 2:24 p.m., the president puts out a tweet that mike pence didn't have the courage to do what was necessary. we have the vice president one window pane away from the mob here. that's when they knew it was time to evacuate. >> reporter: the events of the 6th were only the end of a pressure campaign that began earlier, with pence consistency pushing back, according to testimony from his chief of staff mark short.clusively withs from the committee. >> had the vice president

conveyed to the president, not just to the world through a dear colleague letter, but directly to president trump? >> many times. >> he'd been consistent in conveying his position to the president? >> very consistent. >> reporter: the committee releasing this video of congressman loudermilk, conducting a tour for constituents of the then closed capitol complex january 5th. the committee said the man seen taking pictures of a security checkpoint later recorded this video while marching on the capitol. >> there is no escape, pelosi. >> reporter: capitol police determined there was nothing suspicious about the tour or pictures taken. >> garrett haake reporting for us there. joining us now, chairman of the judiciary committee, democratic majority whip, senator dick durbin of illinois. good morning. great to have you on the show again. tell me about your impressions of this first week of hearings. we'll have our third today, focused on mike pence and the pressure donald trump and others applied to him.

tried to get him to overturn the results of the election. what have you seen so far? >> it is a convincing case. they've collected a mountain of evidence, and they're presenting it in a thoughtful and organized way. i watched the initial two-hour hearing from start to finish. i knew most of the facts going in, but the revelations that came about because of their good work, as chairman of the judiciary committee, we've done some work ourselves. i've turned over the work product to the january 6th committee. i think that's the place where they can gather everything to make this presentation to the american people. let me tell you the bottom line here, this is historic. it is important we pay close attention to it. we tried to create a bipartisan commission, not members of congress, but of experts, just like the 9/11 commission. senator mcconnell and the senate republicans vetoed that idea. i think that was a mistake. luckily, the january 6th

subcommittee has come together, and they have the participation of two individuals from the republican side. one, adam kinzinger from illinois and, of course, liz cheney. i salute both of them for their courage, political courage, and stepping up to make sure the american people know the facts. >> senator, you all tried, as you know well, to set up a bipartisan commission on the senate side, and republicans refused to join that effort. when you talk to them privately, you've worked with many of them, you're friends with many of them for many years, do they concede to you, do you confess that, yes, what happened january 6th was terrible and they are watching these hearings along with the rest of us? >> i can tell you, first thing they do is look at their shoes. they can't look you in the eye and explain why they've taken this position. the second thing that is clear to me is that they know that they're afraid of donald trump and his impact on the republican primaries. if he turns on them, they could lose their political office. they're not prepared to do that, even at the expense of not being

credible to the rest of the country. >> you're the chair of the judiciary committee. as you watch the hearings unfold, do you see evidence of crimes committed that should be referred to the department of justice? >> i can tell you i want the whole body of evidence to be presented first. i'm sure the attorney general is watching closely, as he should, whether this has reached that threshold of criminal culpability is an important decision that has to be made by the department of justice. i will tell you, the mountain of evidence they are presenting to us is con clus evidence they are presenting to us is conive to me personally. i hope those who have to make the decision on criminal culpability see it the same way. >> ginni thomas, we continue to get more information coming out about the fact that the wife of a supreme court justice who vote voted as the lone dissenter in a case involving the attempted overthrow of the united states government continues -- her name continues to come up in emails

and texts, actively calling for the overthrow of the legitimate president elect. whether it's through texts to mark meadows, emails to trump lawyers, or contacts that she made with state legislators, telling them that they had a power they didn't have, which is to overthrow the popular will of the people in their state and send up phony electors to washington, d.c. >> joe, i think there are three point i want to make quickly. one is the role of spouses to people in high political office. spouses do not give up their rights as citizens to vote, to speak, and so forth, but there is a context that they have to be very carefully sensitive to. that is whether or not they've crossed the line and to influence or impact on policy. that is an issue that's raised over and over again. >> it seems she's crossed the line. thatdline. that seep s

thateems fairly simple, does it not? >> that's the second point. as far as mrs. thomas is concerned, she clearly was not just exercising her constitutional rights. she was deeply, personally involved in what appears to be an effort to overturn the election in the last cycle. that is a serious matter, and it raises a question as to whether the supreme court justice she's married to should recuse himself from all matters related to this. there is a clear conflict of interest. the last point i want to make is the institution of the supreme court has been under attack for a long period of time. there was a time when scalia as well as rgb were approved by the senate with overwhelming margins, even though they had one conservative and another liberal. votes of 80 and 90 plus number of senators. those days are gone. now, we have this question raised with ginni thoms ma, the integrity of the court, along with the leaking of the alito opinion, is an issue at this

moment. >> senator, on the subject of why this matters with the january 6th hearings, a document allegedly given to the leader of the far right militia group, the proud boys, before january 6th details plans to occupy more than half a dozen capitol buildings using covert tactics. the evidence was filed yesterday by a lawyer who claimed his proud boy client had never seen it. it lays out in detail a plan to rush government buildings with, quote, patriots and communicate our demands. the document plans specific roles for participants. it calls for leads and seconds to act as sleepers, to let people into the buildings. it reads, have leads and seconds open the doors for the crowd to enter. this might include causing trouble. you know, the front doors, to distract guards who may be holding the doors off.

the document lists their main objective, as a free and fair election, that's in quote, it reads, quote, the evidence of election fraud is overwhelming. we demand that on january 20th, a new election is conducted, not a recount. the department of justice indicted the former leader of the proud boys, enrique tarrio, and several others on -- several other members on seditious conspiracy chargs earlier this month. senator, do you think the january 6th committee and people in general understand, and are they communicating effectively enough how close we came? >> well, i can just tell you this, i watched what they've done so far. i've been very impressed by the collection of the evidence and the presentation of it. there's a lot more to come. it is far from over. when we took over the senate judiciary committee this cycle

with president biden's election, the first -- one of the first witnesses before us was the director of the fbi. we asked him the greatest domestic threat to the united states today. he said it was the white supremacy, white nationalist groups. now, the republicans in congress have been in denial. they refused to accept this reality. but we have had hearing after hearing that demonstrated the emergence of these groups, their power and their danger. we use the phrase overthrow the government of the united states and think, that's ppreposterous. that could never happen. we came perilously close because of donald trump and his determination to ignore the will of the people. these groups, or as he says, stand back, stand ready, whatever his quote was, that tells me that these were the folks that he was going to count on in the extreme to execute their plan. i think it's up to the january 6th committee to present all the evidence, but i am convinced, having voted for his impeachment over this issue, that donald trump played a personal role in the emergence of what happened

january 6th. >> stand back and stand by, he said at a presidential debate. proud boys said their membership tripled after he said that. senator, i want to get your insight on another issue, and that is this attempt by a bipartisan group in the senate to write some new gun laws in the wake of the shootings in uvalde and in buffalo. what can you tell us about what's happening in the room? we hear some optimism from senators cornyn and murphy, both who clearly are working together trying to hash out some of the details here. where do you think the country ends up? what does the law look like in the end? >> i can tell you, chris murphy called me last sunday after the framework was established and asked if i could have help drafting the legislation. i said of course. there are two or three issues they're working on that are important. i'm optimistic. i feel that we have reached this point. we have buy-in from the leadership in the senate on both

sides of the aisle. you think we can get this done. there's some tough measures to be drafted, but that's what we do here. we draft legislation, reach a compromise. i think it can be done, and i have my fingers crossed that come next week, we can see this on the floor of the senate. >> what do you say to so many people in this country, senator, who look on the polling with issues like red flag laws, universal background checks, raising the age to buy a semiautomatic rifle to 21, and say, we're glad republicans and democrats are working together on this, but the end product really isn't going to get at the problem of gun violence in this country? >> what we are doing is necessary but it is not sufficient. when it comes down to these assault weapons and the fact that there are millions of them in circulation in the united states, and 18-year-olds can purchase them, even though the framework addresses background checks for them in more detail, we know that there's much more that needs to be done. the decision as to whether or not it is going to take place is in november, in the election. people have to decide who they

want to make these decisions in the come smonths to come. this isn't the last of gun safety legislation, and it's not the end of gun violence in america, but it is an important start. >> we'll be watching to see where this ends up. senator dick durbin of illinois, thank you. thanks, as always, for being with us. turning now to the war on ukraine as the fighting in the eastern donbas region reaches a decisive moment. the u.s. is pledging additional support for the country. president joe biden announced yesterday another $1 billion in military aid. this new package will include anti-ship missile launchers, howitzers, and more rounds of high mobile artillery rocket systems. biden's pledge came during a phone call with ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy. during that call, biden also said the u.s. will send an additional $225 million in humanitarian assistance to address issues such as safe

drinking water, critical medical supplies, and food. ukrainian officials have been pleading for weeks for more advanced weapons to stop the advance of russian forces in eastern ukraine. secretary of defense lloyd austin said yesterday the u.s. is moving as fast as possible to get the critical weapons on the ground. this as the french president, the german chancellor, and the italian premier arrived in kyiv this morning. the leaders are expected to meet with president zelenskyy in kyiv as they prepare for a key european union leaders summit in brussels next week. this is huge. i mean, so symbolic on so many levels, katty. also, the european union has decisions to make, in terms of energy dependence and how far they want to go with sanctions. this unity, probably, is very, very hopeful for volodymyr zelenskyy.

>> yeah. this is coming at exactly the right time for him. four months into the war, there is now a new poll out in europe suggesting that a third of europeans feel that they want the war to end as quickly as possible, even if that means ukraine giving up some of its territory. that's obviously not what president zelenskyy wants. he wants to make sure the europeans stick behind him for as long as possible. he doesn't want to give up any territory at all. but the combination of the impact on gas prices, the impact it's going to have on food prices, the refugees who are still living in neighboring european countries, it is putting some strain on europeans. to have these three leaders there, showing zelenskyy he still has all of their support and trying to put on pressure, as well, to the germans to step up their supplies of weapons to the ukrainians, it's a hard time for the ukraiukrainians. things are not going well in the east. a couple months ago, we were saying it's gone so well in the beginning, in the heady days when the convoy was turned

outside of kyiv. things are going better for the russians at the moment, and the ukrainians are low on basic things like ammunition. they need to get the message out to the europeans and the americans, that if the west is demitted to ukraine winning this war and russia not winning this war, they can't let up on the effort to keep arming the ukrainians. >> for sure. joining us now, senior fellow at the eurasia group foundation, mark hannah. this morning, the foundation released the results of a survey of the perceptions of american democracy abroad. this is something that's really fascinating to me, and i'm wondering what you found, especially given the january 6th hearings and the ongoings of the trump years, where there was a real anti-democratic wave among the trump right in america. >> sure. thank you for having me on. this is our fourth year now of conducting a survey of

geopolitically diverse countries, not just european countries, as was in the previous segment, but nigeria, germany, japan, india, egypt, mexico, poland. one thing that we found, the good news first, is that in the four years of doing the survey, favorable views of the united states in general and of american style democracy, in particular, are at a four-year high. so that's the good news. despite everything we're seeing, the blemish on american democracy that the january 6th hearings might manifest, that's a positive sign. when it comes to the war in ukraine, we have some interesting findings, as well. >> okay. i'd like to hear about that. also, what is the bad news? >> okay. well, the bad news is there are drivers of sort of unfavorable views of american democracy. one is -- we asked, what would make sort of democracy more

attractive in your country. the gap between the rich and the poor in the united states was the number one thing. we also found a strong relationship and a statistically significant relationship between resentment over america's hard power and negative views of the u.s. in general. so that is -- you know, if the united states foreign policy was more restrained, people who chose that were more likely to have an unfavorable view. in large part, though, joe biden's foreign policies have gotten broad support, more than 2.5 times as many people support it as opposed to his withdrawal of american troops from afghanistan in august, and roughly 2.5 times as many think the united states responded well to the russian invasion. though when we asked follow-up questions to that, the reason they suggested it responded well had more to do with avoiding a wider war, avoiding a direct confrontation between the united

states and russia, than other things like, you know, arming the ukrainians or preserving its territorial integrity. >> can i get back to your point about democracy? during the end of the trump administration, there were times at which the u.s. was downgraded from being a strong democracy to being a fragile democracy by groups looking at democracy, for example. sweden didn't give the u.s. a good rating. are you suggesting from your surveys now, american democracy looks more solid? >> it does to people in these nine countries we surveyed. granted, there are roughly 200 countries in the world. this is very populous countries, diverse countries, but it is not representative of the world as such. but apples to apples comparison, comparing the views in these nine countries over the past four years, yes, views of american democracy are higher than they've been. some might be attributable to

joe biden versus donald trump. some of that might have to do with specific policies of the biden administration that people like. >> interesting. senior fellow at the eurasia group foundation, mark hannah, thank you very much for coming on this morning. we appreciate it. still ahead on "morning joe," we get a live report from cnbc as we watch wall street's reaction to the latest blow in the fight against inflation. the fed announcing its largest rate hike in nearly three decades. plus, new york city mayor eric adams is our guest. we'll ask the mayor about yesterday's cover of the "new york post," pitting him against congresswoman aoc in a battle for the soul of new york liberals. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. so this is the meta portal plus. a smart video calling device that makes working from home, work. it syncs with your favorite vc apps

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joe talked about the emails ginni thomas, the wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas, sent to lawyer john eastman. well, "the new york times" is reporting on another email exchange, this one from eastman to another pro-trump lawyer. while discussing efforts to get the supreme court to hear an election case from wisconsin, eastman reportedly wrote to another pro-trump lawyer, quote, so the odds are not based on the legal merits but an assessment of the justices' spines, and i understand there is a heated fight under way. the pro-trump attorney, replied, odds will be more favorable if justices fear there will be wild chaos on january 6th. unless they rule by then, either way. the exchange took place on december 24th, five days after trump tweeted for his followers

to come to the capitol on january 6th, posting, quote, will be wild. i mean, joe, it's really what they're putting together, by the way, is fascinating. this ginni thomas angle is so troubling to me. i know that, you know, a wife and a husband can have two separate careers and lives, but she's married to a supreme court justice. the types of emails and texts that she's sending out are extremely disturbing. >> not only that, she is trying actively to undermine the constitution of the united states. she's trying actively to undermine the rule of law. she's trying actively to undermine a peaceful transition from one presidency to the next. she's trying to through out the votes of 80 million americans,

to negate them. and, george conway, you look at what donald trump's lawyer who she is texting with, what he and his cohort are talking about. there's a tidy little definition for it. it's called fascism. call it mob rule, but this is just pure, 100% proof, fascism, where you have trump's lawyer going, we may not win on the merits. another guy going, with mob rule, if there is enough chaos, if the justices are intimidated, even though we don't have the law on our side, maybe we can intimidate them through force and violence to rule our way. fascism, right, george? >> absolutely. thankfully, the supreme court did not give any of those lawsuits the time of day. so i hope to heaven sake all of

this was john eastman blowing spoke and he wasn't really commenting on actual deliberations before the court. there wasn't really any evidence presented in anything the court decided that there was any serious controversy at the court around the various cases trump lost up there. >> jackie, is the committee could the world cup be coming to the big apple? new york and new jersey are teaming up for a chance to host soccer fans from around the world. we'll talk to eric adams and phil murphy about that, just ahead on "morning joe."

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i read dr. fauci tested positive for covid. luckily, he is only experiencing mild symptoms. yup. covid must feel like it reached the final boss in a video game. we did it. we beat fauci. even he is reading the guidelines, like, damn, these are confusing. isolate five days and then quarantine? what do i do? >> he's doing well. we hope he is doing well. hope everybody that has covid out there today is doing well. a lot of people have covid. symptoms seem to be very mild. was going to get together yesterday afternoon with a friend, and his 14-year-old daughter got it. it's just still going around. >> it is. >> it's not -- again, we have

vaccines, those boosted, it seems to be very mild. from everything i've heard. >> it is. but then there are other people who are laid up for a week and ten days, like it was two years ago. so it is not to be messed with. >> yeah. that's the news on the covid front. anthony fauci has covid. in other pandemic news, they renamed monkeypox. they said the name was racist. >> i don't get that. >> joining us now, "morning joe" economic analyst, steve rattner. i want to ask you about that but -- >> i had covid in december. >> how was it? >> are you okay, steve? >> i am absolutely okay. it was uneventful. i thought i only had a cold. fortunately, we test in the office once a week. >> yeah. >> turned out i had covid. it was a bad cold. >> bad cold, yeah. >> wow. >> i'm trying to figure out, mika, do you think that one time i had covid -- we're trying to

figure out if i had covid. i just don't get sick. >> you were so sick. this one week -- >> i don't get sick. >> -- joe was so sick, then i got it. but we tested, nothing, nothing. >> it was just like this. i was washing my hands and, suddenly, chills came over me. i flew -- literally, i got hit. >> i had to carry him. >> did you have to lay down for a couple days? i think you had covid. >> yeah, couple days. i had the chills. they were violent. it was out of nowhere. >> yeah. >> all the tests. ended up that i had whatever they call monkeypox now. >> no, no, no. [ laughter ] >> joe -- >> david letterman was joking about that a decade ago. yes, ma'am? >> joe, there is maybe something to be said for the fact, and i am especially the queen of wearing a mask. i should wear a mask for practically everything now. doing the show, no. but, you know, i wear a mask when i travel.

i think we all have been so separated and we've been so careful and masking, i wonder if just getting out into the world again, we're catching just normal viruses. i wonder if there is something to that. >> i think there is something to that. i also think, though, that, again, the lesson of china is if you have a zero covid tolerance policy, what you're going to do is drive down everybody's resistance. when they do get back out in the world, at some point, they're all going to get sick. i think everybody should wear -- you know, i'll tell you, when i go to a store and somebody is wearing a mask, if it is an older person, i usually have one on, i'll put it on out of courtesy getting on and off of planes. they say when everybody is packed in, that's a smart time to do that. other than that, i mean, we have built, as scott gottlieb said, we have built a huge wall of resistance in this country. >> yeah. the problem that china has is they don't have an effective vaccine. >> yeah.

>> if you don't have an effective vaccine, what are your choices? the reason people here don't get very sick is we're all double, triple, quadruple vaccinated and it becomes a mild cold. >> they can't even make a vaccine. i've been saying china is the next japan. i was right, wasn't i, steve? >> well, that's a longer conversation. >> china hasn't become the behemoth, in part, because of xi's choices. >> terrible decisions. >> hurt the competitiveness. >> it's hurt their competitiveness. they shut down shanghai. they shut down shenzhen, a big exporting and manufacturing center. it hurts the economy. they're in a box. what do you do? if you let out unvaccinated people, they get really sick, they don't have a vaccine and also don't have enough hospital facilities. they're under built relative to the size of the population. >> the great world power we were afraid would overtake us and stomp us economically in five years. >> i wouldn't write them off. >> i heard the same about japan

in '88 and '89 and it ended up not being true. my point is, like, we always talk down this country. you have to be a fool to talk down the united states economy. yes, we're going through a rough time. compare it to other countries, a lot of inflation across the globe. we're still -- i mean, let me ask you, would you trade the u.s. economy for any other economy right now? >> we're the best house in a bad neighborhood. >> pretty good neighborhood. it keeps going up. >> talking about the world. europe is a mess, a terrible mess at the moment. we talked about china. japan, as you said, has been kind of doing nothing for the last 30 years. it is a very big economy. >> by the way, what has -- has lack of -- it's sort of the closed off nature of japan, has that caused their, just, lost three decades? is that something we should worry about, as far as immigration? i know we have an absolute colossal mess at the southern border. it has to be cleaned up.

that said, though, you know, the fact we're not getting high-tech people, just begging people. as tom friedman wrote in a column ten years ago, we should give people from other countries who have post grad degrees, give them the degree and stamp a green card on the back and say, please open a business in north carolina. please open a business in texas. please open a business in connecticut. instead of sending them back home to open those businesses in new delhi. >> yeah, absolutely. japan is a very insular culture. the business culture is extraordinarily insular, meaning two things. they don't have the fresh talent coming in to revive their sector, and they just don't -- they do things their way. they're not that competitive. they're closed in. if you look at america and you look at microsoft, run by an immigrant. google, run by an immigrant. go company by company, and you see what immigrants have done to the quality of the business leadership in the country, it is there. coming up, a new piece in

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tournament be coming to the new york area? whether the bid to be the host city for the 2026 world cup was successful. the first ever 48-team world cup will be hosted by all three north american countries. a successful bid would see the international tournament play games at metlife across the river in east rutherford, new jersey. joining us now governor phil murphy and eric adams. good morning to you both, gentlemen. since it sounds like we're talking about new jersey, my home state, tell us why you would like to see the world cup in jersey? >> it is very much new york city and new jersey. this is -- we believe we've got the most passion for the game, the biggest stars, the biggest economies, the combination of new york city and new jersey is an unbeatable combo. we think we've got a great stadium in met life. all that goes with the glamour

and the pizzazz of new york city alongside the character and grit of new jersey. we think that we're an unbeatable duo. >> so mr. mayor, talk about how this would work. it is in north america, across three countries. but new york city and new jersey would be a host city as part of that combination, is that right? >> yes. and we're a deem. those who are soccer fans, you know the governor is the striker, i'm the goalie. we're going to -- to win the game for us. and this is a perfect combination. and when you look at all of the locations that fifa is looking at, we really represent the global approach to this. we're the most diversified region on the entire globe. many of the fan base in other cities are located here.

they could -- they're ex patriots so this is a perfect combination for us. as they decide which location to host the games, we believe we are in the running and we're looking forward to an announcement to determine who the cities are. >> the infrastructure for this? >> yes. we are excited, number one, we have an excellent transportation infrastructure which is crucial. we have the hotel infrastructure, which is extremely important. we have the best law enforcement apparatus with the combination of the jersey law enforcement personnel, keeping people safe and move them about. this is a huge economic benefit for our region and we're looking forward to it. >> so, governor, i remember i'm thinking back and mayor adams, when there was this bid about 15 years ago and mayor bloomberg was trying to get the olympics to come to new york and they said it sounds like traffic at the lincoln tunnel and no thanks

and they were going to build the stadium on the west side and you know the rest of it. what do you think the appetite is for you governor, in the state of new jersey, to bring this big tournament to our state? >> oh, the appetite is huge. this is the world's biggest sporting event. we hosted games back in 1994 all the way through, the semifinal. i know a speak on behalf of the mayor and myself, we want to not just be a city to host some games, we want to host the final. but the appetite is huge. you'll have plus or minus six games. that is a half a million fans. huge, as the mayor said, huge economic benefit to both new york city and new jersey. this is a home run for us and we're going to be co-hosting a watch party later on today so we better darn well make sure new york and new jersey is selected and we're excited about that. >> and mayor, a huge fan base in new york city, obviously for

soccer, not just among native americans but migrants who have come here where soccer is so big in our country, what makes our city is so great is people around the world would make a ton of fans for this game. >> and that is why this is say win for fifa as well. because they are attempting to expand their fan base in america, this is where sports thrive and grow. we see it with baseball and basketball and to be able to have a real foot hold here is crucial. and they have built out a pipeline. many young people grew up on soccer, allowed them to have the level of exercise that is needed, team work to learn how to work together. so we are excited about having many camps and many festivities where people could really enjoy and participate in this amazing event for our region. >> mr. mayor, a lot of talk obviously over the past year about crime in new york city and

across america. are you able to convince the people that are going to be making these decisions that you're going to start getting buy in from other elected officials not only new york city but in new york state on issues like bell reform, on issues like -- well the efforts you're making to get guns off the street. will you get that buy in and you could convince the host committee you could get that buy in? >> that is a great question. because when we think about how do we get guns off our streets and keep dangerous people off our streets, this is one of the examples of why these moments are important. because you know and i know whenever you attract these large events to your municipalities, people want to know will people be safe and are you going to ensure that those laws we pass won't impact on the public safety. so every time we put together a

package, we present how well we're going to protect those who come here. but it sends a message to all of those that are part of the criminal justice system that the actions they take will also impact on the economy of our region and i'm going to lift my voice up to show how important this is. >> your vision on crime and the balancing police reform with tough law enforcement, obviously supported by many new yorkers. the new york post was suggesting that you and aoc are battling each other for sort of the hearts and minds of new york democrats. i know you've said some pretty tough things about progressives in the past. i'm curious, what is your reaction to that headline, and is there a battle between you and aoc. >> i consider myself as a

pragmatic progressive and i believe that people have hijacked the term of being progressive. what we pass in our budget is clear progressive legislation to uplift every day new yorkers. and this is not really about alexandria ocasio-cortez, the congresswoman, this is about a philosophy in which i believe americans believe in. i believe in americans system of government. i believe in what we stand for. and i am not going after any elected officials. they have their belief but i think on the streets, educate children and support businesses so we could move people into the middle class lifestyle they deserve and that is what i'm focused on and that is what we're accomplishing and that is part of the bringing games here to new york. we're going to continue to employee and come out of this pandemic with real good, solid ways of bringing our city forward. >> governor murphy, we've been talking about crime with mayor adams. you've been putting some

pressure on your legislature there in new jersey in the wake of the unthinkable tragedies in uvalde and buffalo on gun reform. what does that look like in your state and how might the laws change there. >> yeah, we have among the most -- the safest gun safety laws in america. i think we're in the top couple of states. but we could be safer. and so we've got gun reform package 3.0. we've already passed two significant and signed two significant packages of legislation. but we need to do more. whether it is how you store your ammunition, how old you should be to own a long gun, you should just take a lesson to learn how to drive a car, you should do the same thing before your purchasing a gun. common sense stuff. so we're pursuing that with our legislature. i'm optimistic that we'll get

meaningful progress on this. but we need to get progress in washington. 85% of the crime guns that are retrieved in new jersey come from out of state. and as strong as we might be in terms of our laws, we're not an island. we need the country to move forward as well. so we need both and got willing we'll get that. >> working on it in washington right now as the work continues at the state level. phil murphy and eric adams, good luck. we'll be watching that announcement to see if the new york area will host games in the world cup. thanks for being with us. >> it is the top of the fourth hour of morning joe and we're here and loving it. the january 6 committee returns today for the third public hearing. this time focusing on the pressure campaign on mike pence, the vice president, to overturn the 2020 election.

we'll have what to expect including a look at exclusive new video ahead of this afternoon's hearing. also ahead, the new reporting on ginni thomas, wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas. she was reportedly in contact with the trump lawyer attempting to overturn the election. and we're keeping an eye on the market this is morning as futures overnight fell nearly 600 points. wiping out wednesday's rally after the fed implemented the largest interest rate hike in nearly 30 years. but we begin with those january 6 hearings. and in just about four hours, the third public hearing of the house committee investigating the attack on the capitol is set to get underway. expected to testify former council to vice president pence, greg jacob, who was subpoenas to appear and plans to comply. also retired federal judge jay michael luttig,