♪♪ ♪♪ >> hi, everyone. it is 4:00 in new york. i'm ayman mohyeldin in for nicole wallace. vital to the health and safety of our democracy here. for more than a year the justice department and the january 6th select committee have worked separately, but have shared a common goal, justice. to hold accountable those responsible for the attempted coup from rank and file insurrectionists and all of the way up to perhaps donald trump himself, but in recent days, right up until this very afternoon, in fact, there were concerns about escalating tensions, friction between the two sides. earlier this week doj officials pointedly renewed a request they made of the committee back in april, regarding its refusal to turn over full transcripts from

more than a thousand witness interviews including those with leaders from the proud boys from the doj's letter in part, read this, it is now readily apparent that the interviews the select committee conducted are not just potentially relevant to our overall criminal investigations, but are likely relevant to specific prosecutions that have already commenced. well, the news that we alluded to this afternoon, a spokesman confirmed an earlier new york times scoop to our team on the hill that the committee will cooperate with the doj. what that could mean and how that partnership could play out, we will have more on that in just a few moments, but first, one of this week's central questions was whether or not the committee would eventually vote on referring trump to the department of justice for a potential criminal case. watching yesterday's explosive hearing, politico suggests this, the committee is making that referral in its own way presenting evidence in a clear

chronology that suggests the twice-impeached president did, in fact, commit a crime. right now, donald trump is delivering a speech attacking the committee and on mike pence, trump insisted he never called his vice president a wimp, but then went ahead and called him a human conveyor belt in front of an adoring crowd. even as trump and the rest of us come to grips with what we are learning and what we learned yesterday, already we have an eye on next week's hearings including a closer observation of trump's attempt to pressure state officials to overturn the results of the election. let's bring in our panel, political and national correspondent betsy woodruff swan is here, also with us, phil rucker, former democratic senator claire mccaskill and former u.s. attorney and former fbi official chuck rosenberg. lucky for us they're all msnbc contributors. betsy, let me start with you and from the committee and the department of justice on this issue of transcripts.

the department of justice seemed pretty adamant that they, in fact, needed them and now the new york times reports that the committee will start sharing those in july. give us the background here and why the committee still wants to wait until the hearings are over to share what they have learned in these transcripts. >> committees in general are always loathed to share their own internal investigative materials with other outside parties, whether those parties are journalists or law enforcement officials as long as their investigations are under way because they don't want the integrity of those investigations to potentially be compromised. so it's understandable that the committee wouldn't necessarily be chomping at the bit to send all these transcripts over to the justice department. additionally, one process that's still under way between the committee and witnesses which is very typical of congressional investigations is the review process where witnesses have a chance to come in, look at the

transcripts of the interviews that they provided for the committee and potentially add more information or make changes and amplifications to what they said. that again is a fairly standard investigative process and is likely that will be ongoing until the committee releases its investigation. if the committee starts forking over the transcripts to the justice department before that process is done, it can undermine the trust relationships that committee investigators have with the witnesses who have cooperated and many of whument have cooperated voluntarily. that said, for the justice department when it comes to the prosecutions, sometimes there are time-sensitive decisions and upcoming trials and upcoming hearings where having as much information as possible as quickly as possible would be helpful and that seems to be an important piece of the reason the justice department is trying to put more pressure on the select committee to quickly get

them this information that they're looking for. >> so, phil, i want to ask you, given the information that betsy shared, with that in mind i want to show you two things and the first is this sound bite from chairman bennie thompson just yesterday when he was asked whether or not the committee planned to cooperate with the department of justice, right? >> so you're not going to turn over the transcripts by the end of the week? >> no. >> what's your reaction -- >> look, look, look, that does not mean that we're not going to cooperate. we got the letter yesterday. we've interviewed over a thousand witnesses. we have a number of information. that means we'd have to stop what we are doing to then work with the department of justice. we will eventually cooperate with them. we have five more hearings to work through. we have a lot of other things to do. >> so you won't share with them before the hearings are over? you won't share transcripts with them before the end of the hearings? >> no. >> no?

>> now compare that to a statement released just this afternoon from committee spokesman tim mulvay in which the statement read the select committee is engaged in a cooperative process to address the needs of the department of justice. we are not inclined to share the details of this publicly. we believe accountability is important and won't be an obstacle to the department's prosecutions. yesterday it was essentially, we'll get back to you, we have work to do. today my reading of that statement suggests the committee has gotten back to doj and you know washington better than i do. is this a course reversal here? is this a course correction? is this another instance of a member of the committee making a pronouncement one day only to have a change of heart a day later? >> i don't read it as a correction or a course rehearsal. it seems more like an evolution in the negotiations over this cooperation. i mean, clearly, the committee has a lot of work on its hands in the immediate term to prepare

for hearings next week to continue their investigation and deal with what's coming out, sort of day by day as these hearings are ongoing and i read that statement today as just an indication that the committee is indeed talking to the department of justice about some sort of a time line of when to share those transcriptses and what that full cooperation could ultimately look like, but as the committee spokesman said they seem to be low to share those details with the public, but i don't see it as a reversal of what the chairman said to the reporters yesterday. >> so, chuck, i want to go back to that assessment that we brought up at the top of the hour. politico suggesting that the january 6th committee has asked doj to investigate donald trump and that it is still making that case in its own way. from that piece, quote, from all of the panel's public quibbling over whether to vote on referring trump to the justice department for a possible criminal case, members did it their own way. they used thursday's public hearing to present what they see

as some of their most compelling evidence and thereby, mount a case with attorney general merrick garland. watching that trump broke the law in his effort to make former vice president mike pence single-handedly overturn the election. chuck, do you see -- do you see it that way that the committee makes a gesture to make it an official referral and they've done it in their own way? >> well, they have done it in their own way, but i would like to change the question, if you don't mind? >> please. >> the department and justice and i worked there for many years and prides itself on being independent and apolitical. if they were to get a mostly partisan referral from the house of representatives, it would look like, if they opened an investigation or charged someone as a result, they were doing the political bidding of the house and that would be a huge mistake. so the house can characterize

this however it wants. they want to call it a sort of a referral, quasi referral or a referral in kind, great. it doesn't matter. the department of justice has its own investigation and they can do help for the committee and i can't imagine their ongoing prosecutions where what witnesses said to the committee might important to be constitutional of prosecutors to turn it over. the committee is being small minded and making a huge mistake in not immediately cooperatively. secondly, the want it of justice have had their own explanation and it makes perfect sense from that they would request for materials, a fen, and again, and they don't have a referral and they wouldn't want one. >> you focused on intent during

these hears and the committee is doing its best to show that donald trump knew what he was doing was illegal because he had been told as such by advisers that the election was not stolen. there was no fraud, and they kept repeating it to him. the committee has a much lower bar than a courtroom, but as you as a former prosecutor have you seen what you need to see to be convinced that, in fact, donald trump knew what he was asking of mike pence and what he was doing by pushing this big lie was illegal? simply, i think they're getting closer to that important question and let me tell you why they're not there yet, eamon. there's a difference between what trump was told and what the department of justice can prove trump knew. let me give you an example. if you, eamon, told me your favorite flavor of ice cream was vanilla and people witnessed that conversation we can prove that you told me that and you can assume that i understand that because that's not really complicated. if you spent the next week telling me about quantum mechanics and quantum physics,

right? we would have proof that you told me that, but i don't think you would have proof that we understood it. we spent so much time talking about how ignorant president trump is and now all of a sudden simply because he was told about the electoral count act of 1887 and because he was told about the plain language of the 12th amendment, i don't know that we can imput to him that he understood it. he doesn't understand very much. so so far, i have good evidence in front of me that he was told. i have an inference that he understands. as a prosecutor i would want dispositive proof that he understood and formed intent to do what he did, and i don't think they're there yet, but i think they're getting closer. >> so, claire, to that point, if i can expand on it with one of the most explosive bits of evidence yesterday, john eastman, that email he sent suggesting in part, quote, i've decided i should be on the pardon list if that is still in the works. so as we were just talking about

there intent with chuck and what trump may or may have not known how do you interpret that for john eastman, clearly he must have been a part of something illegal if he's seeking a pardon. >> yeah. yesterday was brutal for john eastman. just brutal. not only did he know that the legal theory that he was pushing would lose in the supreme court 9-0 even though he wanted to hang on to clarence thomas, his buddy, and then knowing it was illegal he, of course, wanted to be on the pardon list. it is brutal, and i'm going to disagree slightly with my fellow prosecutor chuck rosenberg. maybe this is the difference between someone who spent time in a state courtroom rather than a federal courtroom. i think they're there. i think they have a body of evidence that shows multiple ways that there was illegal activity by the white house directed by donald trump, whether it was him calling pence that morning after he knew and him lying in a tweet that pence

agreed with him and that he had the authority to do it. that shows intent. that lie and we now know he dictated that tweet that pence agreed with him and he had the authority to do it after he knew full well pence did not agree with him and he had a conversation with the vice president of the united states. so on that score, i think we're getting close. i agree with chuck, however, that there's no reason not to cooperate with the federal government to give them evidence. i question why the federal government have not had this evidence themselves. why have they taken so long and not interviewed witnesses? by the way, this is a role reversal, usually the feds have all of the evidence and they won't give it to anybody, including state and local prosecutors. in this case, congress has facts and they ought to do it as quickly as they can, and even if it means signing someone in, let me get this in. we in the media keep talking

like congress has some authority to make a referral. they have none. there is nothing in the law. it is them writing a letter. they have no more authority to give special attention to pursue a prosecution than anyone else holds some kind of wait is nonsense. they some press want the evidence and share it with its fed and let court do its job. >> do you have insight as to yet department of justice has this information. ? why would the gpt defendant of justice have rely on the january 6th committee. why do they not have this already? >> great question, ayman.

there's a simple answer. >> if you were asked by the committee to speck to it, the fbi and the department of justice isn't present for that interview and the transcript of that interview is held by the house. if you, ayman, are interviewed by the fbi and the department of justice then that transcript, perhaps in the grand jury is held by the department of justice and not by the house. they may have both talked to you but in one case, interview number one, the households and in the second case, interview number two the department of justice holds it and the reason the department of justice wants to see the first transcript is to make sure you are consistent. inconsistencies and various statements makes prosecutions more difficult. it's not that they don't have access to the same witnesses. it's not that they don't have access to the same documents. it's that two different entities have interviewed a large group of the same people and it is absolutely incumbent on the department of justice to look

for inconsistencies and inconsistencies can off line prosecutions. there is some left to go including this thursday. help us looking ahead a little bit. what are we going to learn from brad raffensperger and gabe sterling. we go back to claire's point with the intent, donald trump knew or was at least told by his advisers and close aides that the election was not stolen and yet he called georgia officials after he was told that the election was not stolen and said find me these votes. >> yeah. that's exactly right, ayman and i think that's going to be one of the more pef ref at that time or things that we'll have to dig deep into the phone call that trump had with georgia, the cite and it was report in real time at the washington poefrt and they can have the facts sur, to

find those, dishl votes and effectively overturn the result in the state of georgia and we may learn more about the pressure coming from other people around the president. remember what mark meadows and the white house chief of staff made his own trip down to georgia shortly before that phone call. i expect we'll learn more about that in the hearing and i expect we'll get a full picture of the pressure campaign that trump was waging not just with georgia, but with other states like michigan and pennsylvania and elsewhere to try to overturn results using state legislators who were allies of his and, of course, waging a number of lawsuits which were all either dismissed or thrown out or rejected by the courts. >> betsy, let me ask you really quickly about ago name. we've learned a lot about john eastman. another one i wanted to ask you about was peter navarro. he was know dieted on contempt charges earlier this month.

what do we than he may offer in terms of, you know, insight into what was going on on that time before january the 6th? >> the committee is frustrated by his non-cooperation because he was closely involved in the president's efforts to try to overturn election results. specifically navarro was involved in setting up a phone call that included scores of state legislators between them and senior white house officials regarding the steps that the president was going to take. there were other conversation and efforts that navarro was involved as well that the committee is very interested in. he's long been an ally of steve bannon and bannon was connected to outside efforts to gin up anger with people on the far right in regards to the election outcome. those are all topics and areas that wouldn't be protected by any conceivable interpretation

of executive privilege, but despite that, navarro's refused to answer questions from the committee, citing president biden's unusually broad uncon tushlly broad claims of executive privilege. his reticence has been frustrating and the fact that the justice department has prosecuted him is something that the committee has seen as an important and positive step. >> he's claiming executive prifl emand is willing to go out in public and talk about everything he was doing and new insight at the time. we'll squeeze in a quick break and keep the conversation going. when we come back the committee said it is finally time to hear from ginni thomas, wife of supreme court clarence thomas. if she refuses can it escalate with a subpoena. mike pence was praised by many for resisting the pressure of a coup by the ex president. while others said he should have shown that courage in person to the committee and before as he gears up for a 2024 run. can he continue to toe the line

of trumpism among those in his party and will democrats let him get away with it? we'll talk politics straight ahead. later in the program the wild gop primary that is this michigan governor's race, the top-polling candidate is in court for his role in the insurrection and how the big lie is ending politics in her state. all of those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues. don't go anywhere. : white house" continues. don't go anywhere. ws of bipolarn can take you to a dark place. latuda could make a real difference in your symptoms. latuda was proven to significantly reduce bipolar depression symptoms and in clinical studies, had no substantial impact on weight. this is where i want to be. call your doctor about sudden behavior changes or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. report fever, confusion, stiff or uncontrollable muscle movements, which may be life threatening or permanent.

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kevin, kevin, kevin. >> we had an extended discussion, an hour and a half to two hours on january 5th, and

when i pressed him on the point, i said john, if the vice president did what you were asking him to do we would lose 9-0 in the supreme court, wouldn't we? and he initially started well, i think maybe he would lose onl 7-2 and after further discussion acknowledged, yeah, we would lose 9-0. >> so former adviser to mike pence greg jacob talking about the efforts of john eastman to take the trump campaign fight to steal the 2020 election all of the way to the supreme court. the committee is seeking to interview ginni tom a wife of supreme court thomas clarence thomas after reporting shows that she exchanged emails with john eastman. the committee had previously said they would not interest she appear before the committee after it was revealed that she had sent emails to mark meadows and to arizona lawmakers urging them to overturn the 2020 election. betsy woodruff-swan, claire mccaskel, chuck rosenberg are

all back with us. >> the optics of a supreme court justice's wife emailing john eastman about this coup plot that could eventually find its way back in front of the supreme court even with mike pence's adviser there saying to him this would end in a resounding 9-0 defeat, but then caveating that a little bit. it's just the optics of it to ordinary americans has to be extremely troubling. >> the hearing yesterday did a lot of damage to john eastman. it did a lot of damage to donald trump. it, frankly, make pike pence look like a strong american and it did damage to the supreme court and ginni thomas is communicating with this pretend legal scholar who knew his fringe theory was what one judge called a coup in search of a

theory, he knew it would lose 9-0 and ginni thomas wanting him to speak with her group, the rule on the supreme court is very simple. there is an ethics rule they clearly are not abiding by it, you must recuse yourself if you have an appearance upon improp righty. not an actual, but an appearance. any ninth grader could recognize the appearance of conflict with clarence thomas sitting on the cases particularly in regard to records of his wife communicating with the coup on january 6th. >> i was going to say the list of who she was in communicating with, is shorter than who she was communicating with in overturning the election. phil, talk to us about what the committee might be seeking to uncover from ginni thomas. >> well, ayman, they clearly want to talk to ginni thomas and

they want to learn a lot from her and they can understand the context and the motivation behind the email correspondentence. what exactly did she want eastman to do in speaking to this group of political activists? what was the case that eastman was hoping to make with them. was she going to try to enlist these activists and was he going to try to enlist these activists to overturn the election and furthermore, they would probably seek most importantly to understand whether she had any communication with her husband about any of her plotting to try to overturn the election on behalf of then president trump. that is not spelled out in these emails, but it is something that ginni thomas if testifying under oath honestly could provide some context for and that could be revelatory for the public to understand. >> john eastman seeking to

downplay that the wife of a supreme court justice was engaged with an election litigation group. what do you make of that? just the relationship that is emerging between ginni thomas and a lot of people whether it's mark meadows and john eastman and arizona electors, all of which raise serious questions about as phil was saying the communications that she was having in private with her husband. >> they do raise important questions. so i start with the premise, ayman that the committee has spoken to over a thousand witnesses, right? some of them are peripheral. some of them are central. some of them are in between. sometimes you talk to folks who you think are peripheral and they become central and vice versa. and so they should absolutely talk to her. there's no reason not to. you don't include her because she's married to someone on the supreme court and you would exclude her for that reason and the more that these things come to light as claire and phil have said, the more reason you have to seek her testimony. if it turns out that she's important to this investigation,

great. if it turns out that she's not important, great. i don't have any axe to grind with her, but they absolutely should be talking to her. it's completely appropriate and like i said, sometimes you find out that prif peripheral witnes are more important than they imagined and no big deal. that's why we do investigations. >> she can't wait to clear up any misconceptions and the need to interview everybody close and far to the investigation. how soon is the committee likely to speak to her? >> if she's saying that she can't wait then it sounds like the time line could potentially be fairly quick. she's engaging with conservative media on this topic and suggesting that she believes her explanation of events is one that will be, shall we say, exculpatory. that would suggest that there wouldn't necessarily need to be a particularly long runway

before the committee can talk to her. the fact that it took the committee so, so long to reach out to her in the first place is one of the strangest, small subplots of this investigation. what we've seen as chuck alluded to is the fact that this committee is talking to all sorts of people, very important people and very low-level people, people close to what was going on and people extremely far afield from what was going on. ginni thomas was receiving unusually preferential treatment given the fact that she was reaching out to state legislators and that she was in communication with the white house chief of staff, that she was so involved even from an outside activist role in these, forts to get support for president trump in the quinnipiac election in the end of 2020. there were so many other folks who have much more sensitive roles who the committee have subpoenaed including mark meadows and the house minority

leader, kevin mccarthy who has been subpoenaed. the fact that the committee subpoenaed these people before they even politely asked ginni thomas to come in seems very strongly to indicate that the reasons that are not immediately clear, she was getting some type of kid glove treatment. that treatment has now ended and the only question is how urgent have some investigators on the committee been all this time to finally get a chance to ask ginni thomas questions? >> very valid point there, betry woodruff-swan, phil rucker, chuck rosenberg, claire mccaskill, stick around. mike pence was a big part of the january 6th hearings and he wasn't actually there. he's been traveling the country gearing up for a presidential run, believe it or not and how january 6th is factoring into that next. factoring into that next. we're hittin' the trails between meetings. and putting the brakes on fried foods.

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we are fortunate for mr. pence's courage on january 6th. our democracy came dangerously close to catastrophe. that courage put him in tremendous danger. >> vice president pence understood that his oath of office was more important than his loyalty to donald trump. he did his duty. president trump, unequivocally, did not. >> let me be clear, vice president pence did the right thing that day. he stayed true to his oath to protect and defend the

constitution. >> january 6th select committee members yesterday, their third hearing painted a picture of a vice president who prevented a constitutional crisis and broke from a deranged, dangerous president when it mattered the most to our country. pence's lawyer, greg jacob who was with him on january 6th testified that mike pence decided to stay at the capitol when his life was in danger to see his constitutional duty through, and while many are questioning pence's silence during these hearings, "the washington post" reports that on his way to ohio to campaign for the republican governor, keeping an eye on politics and possibly running in 2024. pence, as a measure of support texted this bible verse to greg jacobs shortly before the hearing began according to an aide, he shall bring forth your righteousness as the light and your justice as the noon day. joining the conversation is president of the action network and host of politics nation the reverend al sharpton and nbc

news correspondent vaughn hilliard and claire mccaskill is still with us. >> the question is mike pence. he's painted by some as a hero and by some who fell short in so many ways with the exception of january 6th and that day. where is mike pence in terms of where he fits all of this? is he simply eyeing i 2024 run and tuning everything else out. >> there's a represent why he agreed to be the vice president in the first place. while donald trump was giving the both sides statement in the trump tower in 2017 after charlottesville, i was with the then-vice president pence in buenos aires. he had just made a foreign policy speech on behalf of the administration and it was so telling at the time the dichotomy. ultimately for him it was what could he you would matly do with serving donald trump and potentially what could he do after? that is where all this has all stumbled from here. there is a complicit with mike

pence throughout this and it was with the hope that one day he might be able to one day from abortion to the idea of religious freedom be able to enacts at a federal level some of these policies here, but that is where when you look at what's happening with this weekend when donald trump just spoke here. donald trump just spoke at the faith and freedom coalition. the ralph reid, longtime evangelical gathering, mike pence was not there and it's donald trump who remains at the forefront of this party that a lot of these folks and i was just on the phone with ralph this afternoon. he said we've been knocking doors as 30, 40 years as evangelicals, as right to life activists here, and ultimately it was donald trump's administration that got us to this point. now that question is where does mike pence fit into all of this? >> mike pence has made himself the heir-apparent for the maga kingdom. where is the line to pence on trump here? he's campaigned for trump

critics like brian kemp, and he won't wage war on trump and he's tried to belittle the january 6th committee. there were moments when the democrats want to focus for the one day in january on the day that almost derailed the democracy. >> he's a mess. he's just a mess. he can't decide whether he needs to be against trump or with trump, be his servant, let trump be the master or whether he needs to carve his own way. i've got news for pence. i don't think his political future in the republican party is bright, but we have to grade him on a curve. yes, he stayed silent when trump did a lot of things, when trump lied every day like most of us brush our teeth, but in that three or four days, around january 6th, grading on the curve, pence did well, and trump

not only lied about -- in a tweet that pence agreed with him about his constitutional authority and the thing that is most shocking is that as the capitol was under assault is that as these men and women of congress were running for their lives and as the secret service was trying to remove pence from the capitol because they feared for his life, trump was tweeting, attacking pence. knowing they had already breached the capitol. it is shocking in how debased it is, what trump did at that moment. so in history, pence will always have a bright spot for standing for the constitution when the electoral college votes were counted, but in history, i don't think there will ever be the word president in front of his name. >> rev, your reaction to it, to mike pence and all of this and his position and his silence and

what he did on january the 6th? >> i think what he did on january the 6th does in many ways have to give him credit for standing up for what's right. you can't ignore a man whose life was at stake and they're rushing him out and they wanted to take him out of the building and he would not leave. i give him credit for that, but i think he's taking all of that credit away when it appears that that was a moment flash of doing right, but that i am so committed to my career that i'm so committed to wanting to be whatever it is that i want to be that i will not go after donald trump who put my life at risk. i mean, can you imagine that we're talking about putting somebody else in the white house that doesn't even mind the threat of death in order to get the seat? i mean, so we go from one reckless, ambitious republican president in trump. is he that reckless and that

ambitious that he's going to ignore that this man tried to instigate a mob that was talking about hang pence? he's going to excuse all of that and won't go before the committee and belittles the committee and only does a private message to his lawyer? i'm wondering if he may not be the same kind of person in terms of reckless ambition that trump is. i give him credit for one day, but that does not mean that he needs to be taken seriously as a white house contender. >> vaughn, your thoughts on where mike pence view his relationship with today as of today because this was the guy who after jap jn, he's seen it before. i have spoken to the president on many teels and we're just not going to see eye to eye ask it's not shg you don't see, and it's's fundamental difference how donald trump was wrong on

january 6th and, tucking about marc short, his former chief of staff on the phone the other night and he said pence wants to look forward instead of relitigating the past and there's a recognition that the republican party wants to do, as we get more of these videos and photos, it's damning and it's hard for the republican party to be able to shape its image around policy when americans are watching this unfold here. when it comes to, i think, pence though i go back to when i first met him back in the summer of 2016, back before he was selected and i asked him the question, would you be comfortable with separating and telling donald trump that you disagree with him, and he told me behind closed doors i will tell him when i disagree and for about five years, he was effectively able to do that. it was not until january 6th and it was that breaking part. so if you are republican you see mike pence that's a faithful, loyal servant and that's where he is with the trump pence

administration, thigh use the word traitor when i say mike pence. >> they said they were going to hang mike pence. stay put. we have more to discuss. how do democrats' message head to the midterms after everything we've learned in the last few weeks. that's next. e learned in the la weeks. that's next. every year we try to exercise more, to be more social, to just relax.

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is there a political play for democrats. the right-wing media has been inflation, inflation, inflation and they're trying to make this all about a distraction and the reaction is that everyone has the bandwidth to talk about these two pressing issues facing an existential threat to our democracy and the other, our economy and is there a democratic play surrounding the messaging surrounding january 6th? >> they sure need to try. this needs to be about extremism versus the reality of an economic situation that's very painful for most americans and i'm not going to sit here and sugarcoat it. it's going to be tough. if the economy hasn't improved and gas prices haven't come down and the stock market hasn't stabilized, i think it's going to be rough terrain for democrats, but these candidates that are getting nominated, i mean, you've got a candidate that has been indicted for governor in michigan. >> you've got candidates everywhere that totally embrace the big lie, that totally are

surfing off donald trump's, fort to steal an election from the american people and that need says to be talked about particularly in these swing districts and those states that are capable of electing a democrat or republican as a united states senator. >> rev, your thoughts on this. 20 million people watched the first hearing and millions more the second when you consider the online impression and social media impressions and the american public right now obviously weighted down by the economy as the republicans are trying to portray, but the truth is this was an existential crisis for the democracy and without it the country doesn't function on so many other levels. >> i think the messaging has to be that when you look at what these people did, these are people that engage in unstable behavior that would brauk down the government. to go to claire's point, yes, we are facing a very serious problem.

this is a mess, inflation, guns, do you want a mob trying to solve that for you or do you want people that protect the government to bring us back? nobody thinks the people that was doing what they did at the capitol that day can solve inflation. you've got to make the republic them. because if i'm voting my pocketbook, i'm going to vote for who can straighten out my pocketbook and that's not a guy with gallows, yelling, hang pence. but they've got to tie that together. since trump embraced him, i would give them to him and give him to the republican party. they're not connecting what we're seeing with them in the election and say, yes, we've got real problems, but those people are incapable of even approaching a solution to our problem. >> on democratic candidates running in a democracy just seems like a bit of weird scenario for me between what we see in pennsylvania, michigan, and elsewhere. reverend al sharpton, vaughn hillyard, thank you so much. claire mccaskill, thank you as well. greater appreciate all your

insights. the january 6th hearings this week coinciding with the 50th anniversary of the watergate break-in, which led to the downfall of a u.s. president. a warning from someone who was there. that today's scandal that we're seeing involving january 6th is much, much worse. e seeing involving january 6th is much, much wseor bipolar depression. it made me feel trapped in a fog. this is art inspired by real stories of bipolar depression. i just couldn't find my way out of it. the lows of bipolar depression can take you to a dark place. latuda could make a real difference in your symptoms. latuda was proven to significantly reduce bipolar depression symptoms and in clinical studies, had no substantial impact on weight. this is where i want to be. call your doctor about sudden behavior changes or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. report fever, confusion, stiff or uncontrollable muscle movements, which may be life threatening or permanent. these aren't all the serious side effects. now i'm back where i belong. ask your doctor if latuda is right for you. pay as little as zero dollars for your first prescription.

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oh hey, don't forget about the tense music too. would you say tense? i'd say suspenseful. aren't they the same thing? can we move on guys, please? alexa, turn on the subtitles. and dim the lights. ok, dimming the lights. only at vanguard you're more than just an investor you're an owner. that means that your priorities are ours too. our interactive tools and advice can help you build a future for the ones you love. that's the value of ownership. [zoom call] ...pivot... work bye. vacation hi! book with priceline. 'cause when you save more, you can “no way!” more. no wayyyy. no waaayyy! no way! [phone ringing] hm. no way! no way! priceline. every trip is a big deal. as the january 6th hearings continue to focus on presidential corruption and an effort to overturn our election, it is worth noting this day in

history. today is the 50th anniversary of the infamous watergate break-in, when burglars connected to the re-election campaign of president richard nixon broke into democratic party headquarters at the watergate office building in washington, d.c. the cover-up and the president's efforts to obstruct justice ultimately led to nixon's resignation, and of course, it changed the course of american history. bob woodward, one of the "washington post" reporters who broke that scandal 50 years ago, reflects on that moment and why donald trump's role in january 6th is actually much, much worse. >> suppose there was a watergate today, what would be the response? well, we have had a watergate today. we have had the trump administration. nixon was a republican. his own party had turned on him. when nixon resigned, it was inconceivable that he would come back or be the leader of the republican party. now, we have such a different

republican party, a party that is, at least on the surface, subservient to the former president. never has happened before. what's this campaign about? what happened on january 6th, the insurrection in the capitol, where people tried to stop the constitutional and legal process of saying who's the president. >> our thanks to "the washington post" for that and when we come back, more on the reputation laundering of the trump allies that the committee has spoken with just this week. after this quick break. ken with just this week. after this quick break

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just being there and listening to all the people that knew what was going to happen and now coming forward, it's mind boggling to know that nobody came forward at that time, even after the riot or during the impeachment. nobody came forward. and that's very troubling. >> hi again, everyone, it is 5:00 in new york. i'm ayman mohyeldin in for nicole wallace. he was one of the brave officers who defended the capitol on january 6th who testified in july of last year to the horrors he experienced, and now has been an attendee of the select committee's public hearings. this morning, u.s. capitol police staff sergeant gonell out with a vital reminder that despite what we hear in the testimonies from those in trump's inner circle, they did nothing at the time to stop the

lies and the rhetoric that culminated in the deadly attack on our capitol. as frank rooney writes in "the new york times," don't let bill barr and ivanka trump visit the reputation laundry mat. he says about the hearings, they are a trip to the reputation laundromat or perhaps the reputation dry cleaner. donald trump's one-time acolytes are trying to expunge the stain of their sycophantsy and they're betting that in a country of feeble attention spans and feeble memories they'll have more luck with that spot than lady mcbeth did with hers but ivanka's former stepien says the words don't amount to moral reckonings. as bill barr departed from the trump administration back in december of 2020, his resignation letter was filled with glowing compliments of his former boss. in fact, he wrote, "i appreciate

the opportunity to update date you this afternoon on the department's review of voter fraud allegations in the 2020 election and how these allegations will continue to be pursued. at a time when the country is so deeply divided, it is incumbent on all levels of government and all agencies acting within their purview to do all we can to assure the integrity of elections and promote public confidence in the outcome." now, contrast that with what we heard him tell the january 6th select committee this week. >> i told that what they were shutting to the public was [ bleep ]. the claims of fraud were [ bleep ]. if he really believes this stuff, he has lost contact -- he's become detached from reality, if he really believes this stuff. >> it's because of the science and the acquiescence by those around trump who knew better that the big lie was able to

metastasize day after day, week after week. and why a recent poll shows that 72% of republicans, to this day, still believe in the falsehood that the 2020 election was stolen. that ongoing threat to our free and fair elections is one former federal judge michael luttig attested to at yesterday's hearing. >> today, almost two years after that fateful day in january 2021, that still donald trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present danger to american democracy.

>> that is where we start this hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. luke broad water, "new york times" congressional reporter is here, plus national security reporter for the "l.a. times" with a focus on the january 6th insurrection and domestic extremism, sara wire. luke, i'll start with you, speak to this disconnect between what we heard in these depositions of trump allies versus what they were doing in public, in realtime, between election day and the insurrection day. >> yeah, i think a lot of democrats would be surprised that bill barr was essentially the star witness of the two -- of the first two committee hearings of the january 6th committee. you'll recall back in, i believe, december of 2020, when he announced that he -- or he sent a memo to justice department officials authorizing investigations into what many clearly saw at the time were baseless allegations of voter

fraud, and many people at the time thought that that actually bolstered donald trump's false claims of fraud. meanwhile, he was apparently held a much different view, privately. now, of course, he did come out and say in the interview with the associated press that they had found no widespread fraud, and right after that, he realized that he would have to likely resign, and he did resign shortly thereafter. but yeah, i mean, like, bill stepien, he's testifying that he told donald trump not to claim victory and essentially was a witness for the january 6th committee, but he is managing the campaign of the primary opponent to liz cheney. he's actively trying to get her out of office. so, some of these people that are being held up as the key witnesses for the january 6th committee are very much not in line with some of the things that they have said publicly at

these hearings in terms of their other actions. >> so, sara, i want to ask you about your reporting because as we just heard there from luke about what bill barr was doing, your new piece in the "l.a. times" actually does something very interesting, takes us through the efforts by trump supporters and allies to find examples of fraud after the 2020 election. the things that ultimately were being investigated by bill barr and others. you write, much of the proof offered in crafting the big lie came from a motley crew of both big players and people unfamiliar to the public who left their daily lives, families, and jobs for weeks to travel to washington or submit affidavits to support the trump campaign's widely debunked claims of fraud. tell us about your investigation and how it all just snowballed from election day until january 6th. >> it was really amazing to me to hear that the effort was kind of in place already before the election happened. that they were ready to fill these hotel rooms at the trump

hotel and other hotels around the city who already primed to believe that election fraud had occurred. and so throughout the reporting, we really saw that there was a disconnect between people who believed trump and people who just believed that fraud had occurred. it was really clear that the trump campaign had stepped away, was already breaking down and breaking away from these claims, and i think it was by -- by the time giuliani held his big press conference with sidney powell, claiming they had reams of fraud to present to the public, that the, you know, trump campaign had really stepped away entirely from trying to prove this, but they weren't saying it publicly. they were just saying it privately behind the scenes. >> and the interesting thing, also, sarah, just to pick up on some more of your reporting. you write that giuliani knew the courts weren't going to wade into deciding an election.

a client of giuliani's who got involved said, instead, he said, that giuliani believed the path to success in terms of overthrowing the election was to convincing lawmakers to reject state results. if they were going to persuade state lawmakers and members of congress, they needed evidence indicative of fraud, even if it wasn't conclusive, trimarco said. so this was never really about the actual instances of fraud. it was just enough -- create enough chaos, create enough confusion, create some fake stories that you can sell to these lawmakers to overthrow the state results. it was all about just seeding that doubt. >> you're right with the afraid, seeding that doubt. and i don't think they believed it was fake information that they were collecting. they really did believe that enough of these anecdotes put together equalled evidence of fraud. and they were getting tips from all over the country, you know,

so-and-so saw someone delivering more ballots than they were allowed to under state law or saw a delivery truck pull up at the back of a ballot counting center and assumed that it had, you know, fake ballots inside. but that really stood out. we saw this legislative -- or this court strategy go forward for several weeks after the election. they lost 62 cases altogether. but to hear that they knew all along that the courts probably weren't going to step in and overturn an entire election unless they had real solid proof of fraud, instead, they just needed enough to convince the lawmakers it needed a closer look. >> okay. i want to bring into the conversation right now, jeremy bash, former chief of staff for the cia and defense department, now an msnbc national security analyst. luke and sarah, stay with me for a second. jeremy, we were talking about the differences in what those around president trump were saying in private versus what

they were doing and saying in public. bill barr is one example. he went on to tell the committee that trump was doing a disservice to the country with his fraud allegations. you served in government, so i want you to talk to this point. i mean, talk about serving for the public good and if, you know, if there's a very real danger for those in government who say and do things publicly than what they are doing privately, because it seemed bill barr, from election day until january 6th, was not doing enough publicly to come out and criticize the president, saying this is just a bunch of bologna, as he was claiming to do behind closed doors. >> well, look, in normal times, of course, in a normal administration, in a normal government agency, there's going to be some daylight potentially between what you talk about publicly and what you advise privetly because you want to have confidential conversations. there are a lot of conversations that you don't want to have aired publicly, so that there can be a deliberation. you give your boss decision

space. but this was no normal time, and this is an entirely different scenario, because what these government officials were witnessing was illegal conduct. i mean, think about the scale and the scope of the proud boys and the oath keepers who are, let's not mince words, domestic terrorist organizations. who are plotting to visit violence on the capitol on lawmakers and to kill the vice president of the united states. and they were being encouraged to do so by none other than the president of the united states. he was encouraging domestic terrorists to kill his vice president so that he could remain in power in defiance of the law and defiance of the constitution. so, nothing about this even comes close to normalcy, and therefore, i think it was really a dereliction of duty. in fact, i think it was a violation of the oath of office for government officials not to speak out about it publicly at the time. for them to come forward now and to try to cleanse their reputation by telling the truth under oath, i guess we might

give them, you know, some credit for doing that, but not too much, because of course, had they had honor or integrity, they would have done so at the time. >> not just under oath but also trying to sell books in some cases. luke, steve bannon went after bill barr on his podcast after we all saw barr's testimony. take a look at this. watch. >> we're coming for you, bro. you're sitting there lying about this. this is the type of crap that we're stopping. you're just not going to sit there and phone this in, throw in a couple lines. we're going to deconstruct this, and we're going to rub your nose in it and then we're going to come after you legally. we're not just going to sit here anymore. >> luke, speak to that for a moment. how -- i mean, speak to how maga treats anyone who comes out and tells the truth and does not drink the maga kool-aid. are we past the point of no return when it comes to accepting facts as a baseline? >> right. i mean, there you see the

inherent risk and the inherent tension between the different views on this. i would say i do think that bill barr testifying under oath before the january 6th committee and saying the things he did does matter. i've heard from several republicans about how seeing him basically just demolish the -- sort of the crazy things that were put in that 2000 mules documentary or some of the other wild claims about the election, actually was persuasive to them. so, yeah, you do have people like steve bannon who are going to continue to lie about the election, who are going to fire up the base, but i actually think it does matter when the trump officials, when the former attorney general says, this is a bunch of crap, everyone. and seeing that visual of him saying that, i think, actually can be persuasive to some of the republican base. so, yes, you see the payback there, that, we're coming for you threat from steve bannon.

but i do think that his testimony could have an impact. >> jeremy, let me play for you what trump campaign manager bill stepien said about being on team normal. watch this. >> i didn't mind being characterized as being part of team normal, as reporters kind of started to do around that point in time. i think along the way, i've built up a pretty good hope, a good reputation for being honest and professional, and i did think what was happening was necessarily honest or professional at that point in time. >> what do you make, jeremy, among the divide within, like, the trump orbit? and ultimately, the fact that team normal lost out if donald trump himself was an agitator for the big lie and the agitator for the insurrection, the fact that people like bill stepien were basically marginalized by the time january 6th came around? >> it's a great question. i think there's a spectrum, obviously, of people who were in

trump's orbit. some people who served for the right reasons but ultimately got caught up in an unethical administration, engaged in illegal conduct. i think you had some people who were off the deep end from the beginning, like a steve bannon. he should never have had a government role. and then i think you've got some people who belatedly came around to realizing the error of their ways, and you know, this bill barr dynamic is kind of interesting because, of course, he wasn't just some mere government official. he was the chief legal officer of the united states of america. he was duty-bound to update hold the rule of law. update update holding the rule of law isn't like extra credit. if he hadn't done it and didn't of course at the time and throughout his tenure as attorney general, i think he should be held accountable as well. the fact that he has remorse or that he sees the b.s., as he put it, to use his phrase, now in

hindsight, again, i think it's the truth of the matter coming to light. >> sarah, it's not by design, i wasn't trying to end this segment on pessimism, but you focus on extremism in your reporting for the "l.a. times." where are we heading? to jeremy's point, we've got to be clear about domestic terrorists, january 6th was a domestic terrorist attack on our democracy. but where are we heading when you see the rise of extremism in all of its various forms that have been on the rise since january 6th? >> really heavy question to end on. you know, i think the -- you start to see at least the federal government become more and more aware. just this week, doj announced that they are creating a -- or standing up a panel to more seriously look at domestic extremism. it seems like it's entered the popular zeitgeist, that people are aware that it's there and it's growing.

and you know, it's beyond me to say where we're going next, but at least seems like more americans are aware that it exists. this is a group of people that have always existed in the country. there might be more of them and they might be more vocal than they have been in the past but they've always been there. >> yeah, i was going to say, more vocal and more connected. i did have to say in my defense, i did preface that question with a warning that i did not want to end on a pessimistic note but i certainly appreciate you taking a stab at it, sarah wire, luke broadwater, thank you very much. jeremy, stick around. when we return, how the big lie has upended politics. one of the state's candidates for governor has been arrested for his role in january 6th and that's vaulted him to the top of the polls in that race. we're going to tell you about that. plus, president biden doubles down on helping ukraine where a third american has now gone missing. we're going to have the very latest in a live report from kyiv. and ahead of the rollout of

covid vaccines for the country's youngest kids, there's one state and one governor who stands affirmatively against it. i bet you can guess who it is. it's florida's ron desantis. we're going to get reaction to that from the white house pandemic response coordinator. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. r. "deadline white house" ctionnues after a quick break. make thinkorswim® even better, we listen. like jack. he wanted a streamlined version he could access anywhere, no download necessary. and kim. she wanted to execute a pre-set trade strategy in seconds. so we gave 'em thinkorswim® web. because platforms this innovative aren't just made for traders -they're made by them. thinkorswim® by td ameritrade

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some new reporting today shows how the ex-president's big lie is not only still very much alive but also how it continues to upend politics in a very important year in this country. take ryan kelley for example. in michigan, he was arrested on june 9th by the fbi for his participation in the january 6th

capitol riot. he was charged with four misdemeanors, unlawful entry, disorderly conduct, engaging in physical violence and willfully injuring property. kelley is awaiting trial next month and just yesterday, a federal judge ruled that in the meantime, he has to surrender his passport and just like hundreds of other capitol rioters, he'll have to surrender his firearms. the "detroit free press" says that kelley's arrest appears to have boosted his name recognition and support in the race for governor of michigan where he's now apparently the republican front runner. the new poll taken in the days following his arrest shows that kelley, with 17% support among republican voters in that state, more than any other republican ahead of the august primary. joining us now is michigan attorney general dana nessel. madam attorney general, thank you so much for joining us. is this what republican voters in michigan support? >> yes, it seems as though they do. and i will say that we have

nominees for the very important races of attorney general and secretary of state, and by far, they chose -- they selected the most out of touch with reality candidates you could possibly imagine and these are individuals who, you know, they're not really swearing an oath to the constitution. they're swearing an oath to donald trump, and that's all that matters to them, and the same goes with ryan kelley. he was willing to commit crimes on his behalf. so that is where the republican party is in the state of michigan, and i expect to see ryan kelley do very well come august in the primaries. >> how do you explain that? speak to the voters in that state for a moment that believe the 2020 election was valid but are still going to vote for a capitol rioter for governor. >> you know what? i wish that i could explain it. but it's hard to do. all i can say is that what i have seen is it's the

radicalization of an entire party, and i attribute it to a lot of things. elected leaders in the republican party who refuse to stand up to donald trump and when they do, they're tossed aside and they know they can't win. if they decide to run for re-election. and social media, fox news, i mean, you name it. these are people who are only getting their information from one source and the source that they're getting it from is completely inaccurate. so, they bought into the lies completely, and unfortunately, i think it's devastating for our state, and it's devastating for our country. >> you bring up a really interesting point about the ecosystem that exists between the republican party, right-wing social media, even bill barr mentioned "2,000 mules," this controversial documentary that was made and it was brought up in the hearings that he looked at and investigated claims. what is your response to the demand yesterday by michigan republican lawmakers to investigate the bogus claims

that were in this discredited film, "2,000 mules"? >> well, first of all, i thought it was notable that yesterday, the former trump-appointed u.s. attorney for the eastern district of michigan, which of course encapsulates detroit, and who investigated thoroughly at the demand of the doj, the 2020 election for any irregularities in detroit, he determined that there was no election fraud that could be ascertained, and he was quite defiant about it. so, even he said he used all his resources in order to investigate this matter. he reported that up to his boss, bill barr, who said the exact same thing, and you know, for us to, as law enforcement, to use our resources, chasing our tails around so that we can try to determine whether or not some documentary -- and i'm going to use air quotes when i say that,

by the way -- you know, is valid or not. even the senate oversight committee, the republican senate oversight committee said that they investigated those claims as well and found them to have no merit whatsoever and then referred those cases to my department to investigate the purveyors and the disseminators of that disinformation for fraud. so, that was the republican party who investigated it and then sent it to my office. members of the republican party themselves. so, you know, we've done this over and over again. we've had hundreds of audits in our state. we have had hand recounts in certain counties where there was any sort of dispute. we have had republican clerks themselves who have done their own audits and found that there were no irregularities and that the votes -- totals were accurate. so, we could do this for another hundred years, and we could spend all of our resources trying to find some way, somehow

that trump actually won this election, and it will never happen. it will never happen. and so, you know, we have to rely on the truth and the facts, and that's that joe biden won the 2020 election, fair and square, whether republicans in my state want to concede it or not. >> so, are you at all concerned, and how much do you think the voters in michigan are aware that if these people come into power, this could very well be one of -- and i hate to sound pessimistic -- one of the last elections in the state of michigan, if you have somebody who believes in the big lie and willing to believe "2,000 mules" and willing to overturn the election on january 6th and go to the capitol that day to break law to achieve that goal, if these people become responsible officials that oversee our elections and the voting process, we could be in for a very rough ride, not just in michigan but across the country. >> well, i mean, a rough ride,

if that's what you call the loss of democracy, which is really what we're going to see. these individuals, the secretaries of state, the chief elections officers for those respective states, the attorneys general, the chief law enforcement as well as the individual who's in charge of defending the legitimate results of an election, of course, if we have people who, you know, are more interested in ensuring that a particular candidate wins than defending the vote of the people, then yeah, that is the loss of democracy. so i think what it is, it's up to all of us to go out there and to educate the public and to say, i know you're concerned about things like the cost of gas and the cost of inflation, and those things matter. it's not as though they're unimportant. but at the end of the day, there is nothing more profound or impactful than the loss of our democracy, and none of those other things will ultimately matter if we lose the right to be able to vote and have our

votes count. and that's really what we're looking at. >> yeah, and i ultimately feel that voters in this country need to be made aware of that choice come this november because a lot is at stake. michigan attorney general dana nessel, always a pleasure. thank you so much for making time for us. when we return, a live report from ukraine after a third american has gone missing there. back with that reporting. plus a big step forward for ukraine itself. plus a big step forward for ukraine itself here we go... remember, mom's a kayak denier,

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for the first time today, ukraine is getting closer to one of the goals laid out by its president, volodymyr zelenskyy, at the beginning of this conflict. the european union's executive branch today recommended that ukraine, as well as moldova, be granted candidate status to become a member of the alliance. a small but nonetheless symbolic, importantly first step in the long process. the announcement comes after the leaders of france, germany, italy, and romania met with president zelensky in ukraine thursday and agreed to push the eu on ukraine's membership. the leaders did not go further, however, in supplying ukraine with the weapons it says it needs to help push back the russians in the eastern part of the country. joining us now, nbc news corner ali arouzi live in kyiv. joining the conversation is rick stengel, former top state department official and msnbc political analyst. jeremy bash is still with us. rick, let me start with you. you know, the -- this is a big first step today for ukraine on

their path to eu membership. that's still going to take several years to play out. but what does the road look like now for them and how do you anticipate putin and russia responding? >> thanks, ayman, great to be with you. i did watch the last segment. i'm going to do a little diversion here, and it did crystallize, in my mind, just for people watching, the russian invasion of ukraine and what we're hearing about in the january 6th committee revolve around the same issue, which is a violation of the rule of law. you know, we're talking about donald trump violating the sacred rule of a free democracy passing power from one to another, and vladimir putin violated the international law that you don't violate the sovereignty of another nation. they're very connected. but that's just my little bit of editorial. it's friday evening. you can bear with me. >> you have the liberties, my friend. >> yes, okay, thank you.

but the prospect of ukraine joining the european union is gigantic. what putin was trying to do all along here was not have ukraine lean away from russia and lean towards the west and become a western, democratic, independent nation. that's what -- that is what he wants to avoid at all costs. even more than ukraine joining nato, which would be another part of that. and what's happening now, his invasion has caused all the things he didn't want to have happen happen. ukraine will become a part of the eu. ukraine will move further and further away from russia's orbit and become more and more democratic and independent and that's a darn good thing. >> ali just really quickly, what's been the reaction like on the ground in ukraine to the news that the eu has accepted or fasttracked ukraine's membership to the alliance? >> it's very welcome news here, ayman. this is something that all

ukrainians i've spoken to want very much as well as membership to nato but there is a dose of skepticism here as well. look, the -- especially the eu leaders that came here, the french, the italians, and the germans, are not particularly popular here in ukraine because ukrainians feel that they haven't got that sort of full-throated support from them. they haven't received the tanks from the germans that they promised them, and the comments that president macron has made in the past that it may take decades for ukraine to join the european union and that vladimir putin mustn't be humiliated have not gone down particularly well here. so, they're very excited that they got fasttracked into their candidacy status. the fastest it's ever happened in eu history. but if they don't get that full membership, it will be a crushing blow to them. >> jeremy, does the full membership matter if it doesn't have the caveats of all of the weapons that the ukrainians want? i mean, is this a bit of -- i don't want to say distraction. it's important, as i said, symbolically, but that's not what they need right now and this is going to play out over

several years possibly. president biden is not backing down in regards to americans assistance to ukraine, america's far ahead in leading both militarily, financial aid package to that country. is this global support helpful, or do the ukrainians just need the weapons they need to fight off the russians at this moment? >> well, they need both. i mean, first and foremost, they need the weapons. they need the ammunition. they need the capabilities. they need the training. they need the intelligence. they need the support on cyber issues. they need the support and the information warfare and the world to stay united on sanctions. so they need a number of concrete, specific battlefield and other political, military stages of support from the west. and i think the united states announcing this week another billion dollars of aid to ukraine is very material. they're going to be howitzers. there are going to be this mlms multiple launch rocket systems, sending additional trainers forward. this has been a very specific

way that we're helping shape the battlefield geometry in ukraine's favor. but of course, eu and the membership in the european alliance is an important signal as well, because it showcases that over time, ukraine is going to be integrated economically and politically with the nations of europe and as i think richard stengel pointed out exactly right, shows they're not going to be vacuumed up into the orbit of putinism and russia. >> rick, have you been surprised by how russia has been able to withstand both the economic sanctions and the military battlefield dynamics so to speak where we're dragging on to four and a half months of this war, i believe? and yet, it doesn't seem that there's an end in sight. >> yes, ayman, it's a little disappointing, and part of it has to do with the global dependence on oil, russia's supply of oil, russia is also a

supplier of food staples like wheat, even though they're, of course, boycotting a not letting ukraine, which is also a big supplier of wheat, letting that wheat get out. but i think we sometimes make a mistake in making assumptions about how ukraine is winning the messaging war against russia and everyone is united against russia. i mean, if you look around the planet, india and china, the two most populous countries, don't subscribe to our view of what's going on in ukraine. and some of that, and a lot of that has to do with a dependence on russian energy supplies. that's also, you know, as jeremy was alluding, some of the reluctance of some of the european countries has to do with the fact that they're so dependent, particularly germany, on russian energy. >> ali, with every passing day of this war, we're learning more and more, the horrors of what has happened on the ground in ukraine and elsewhere. outside of the borders of kyiv. i want to -- i know that you went to a suburb of kyiv where

war crimes were committed. what did you find there? >> that's right, ayman. we went to a suburb west of kyiv and the prosecutor general was there. there was a team from america there as well, and it was really hard to see what the russians had done there. again, stories of rape of children, murdering innocent civilians. we visited a school that the russians had taken over. when they left that place, they completely burnt it out and ayman, it was covered in empty alcohol bottles, evident that the russians had gotten drunk and started looting and raping in that place, and we got an opportunity to talk to clint williamson, a former ambassador at large for war crimes. he's here helping the ukrainians go through these heinous crimes that have been committed. let's take a listen to what he had to say. >> the scale of these crimes is incredible. what we see here is heartbreaking. it's senseless.

but it's replicated in village after village, town after town, city after city in ukraine. the difficulty, of course, is going to be identifying perpetrators. certainly, getting perpetrators into custody. but i think the prosecutor general's office has already made huge strides in launching these investigations. i think there will be potentially hundreds of cases that will be brought. but this is going to be a long process. >> and ayman, you know, the icc prosecutor was here the other day. he's essentially called the entire ukraine a crime scene, and some of the worries are, in the places that there are no access to, like mariupol, like kherson, like the donbas region, that a lot of these crimes are being covered up by the russians. that they're using, you know, extraordinary tactics to bury the things that they have done there, but the general prosecutor of ukraine that i

spoke to today said that they are going to do everything they can to unearth these crimes and technology is a big help to get them to do that. >> yeah, of course, we're seeing this all play out in realtime as well. that is adding to that dynamic. gentlemen, thank you so much for spending time with us this afternoon. when we return, as the country gets ready to roll out the covid vaccine for the nation's youngest kids, there is one big state that is refusing to take part. the white house pandemic response coordinator, dr. ashish jha, joins us live next. , dr. ah jha, joins us live next.

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all right, some big news in the fight against covid. for the last remaining group of people eligible for a vaccination, the fda today authorizing both pfizer and moderna's covid vaccines for children as young as 6 months to 5 years old. with just the cdc's signoff left, the white house expects vaccinations to begin as early as next week. the fda's approval today makes nearly every person in the u.s. eligible for a vaccination. now, prior to the fda's authorization, 49 out of 50 states preordered fresh doses of the vaccine to be prepared. the one state that did not? florida. despite rising covid cases in that state, florida governor ron desantis decided not to order the vaccines and to provide them to young children through state programs, saying that they did not undergo sufficient testing to make sure they were effective. however, florida doctors will be able to order the vaccines from the federal government.

joining us now, white house coronavirus response coordinator dr. ashish jha. great to see you again. thank you so much for making time for us. this age group had a lot of testing done to make sure it was safe and effective. since they are so young and so vulnerable. just to reiterate that to the american people watching this, how safe is this vaccine for children? >> yes, ayman, first of all, thanks for having me back. look, there's a reason it took us a while. this age group vaccinated or to have it authorized. it was very careful study of getting the right dosing, looking at data on safety. there were no cases of myocarditis in the clinical trial for this age group. this went in front of scientific experts, they pored over the data and they recommended authorization 21-0. like, it was overwhelming. there is no question in the

scientific community about the safety of these vaccines and the effectiveness of these vaccines. >> so, today in response to governor desantis's comments, the white house announcing that florida doctors will be able to order directly from the federal government. how do you respond to ron desantis at a time when covid cases in florida are rising and he is saying the testing isn't sufficient and he is not going to participate? >> yeah, so, look, we have had a long tradition in our country of relying on scientific experts, external experts, the career scientists at the fda. this has gone through a very rigorous process and the -- and generally, we believe that political leaders should not be substituting their own personal judgment for the scientific judgment of the scientists, and then in terms of whether parents should be vaccinating their kids or not, we feel very strongly, the biden administration certainly feels very strongly this is a choice left up to

parents in discussion with their pediatrician and family physician and political leaders should not be substituting their judgment over the judgment of physicians and parents making an informed choice based on data. that's the belief we have, and we have done everything we can to try to get vaccines out to florida's kids and their parents and doctors. but because of the decision of governor desantis, that is going to be delayed. we're trying to do everything we can to try to close that gap of delay, but it's just unfortunate and totally unnecessary. >> and as you can imagine, there are people who might be watching this and they're saying, look, there are several more variants out there that have emerged. less people have gotten their booster shots. is there work being done to create a lasting vaccine with more efficacy to these variants? >> absolutely. so, there is really very good work happening at the nih, at other federal agencies, at arda, where we are looking at, again, they are looking at both where the science is and how to advance the science on more

durable, more effective vaccines, but also thinking about how do we bring some of those to production. there's a ton of work happening in this space. if you think about it, we've done extraordinary work with multiple vaccines to the american people but that work isn't done. and the science continues and w isn't done. the science continues and nih continues to be at the forefront funding and supporting that work so we can move it quickly for the american people. >> as you can imagine with the summer travel season ahead of us, there are a lot of questions and concerns about where we stand in the fight against covid collectively as a country. obviously this is one more tool in our arsenal, being able to vaccinate young children. i certainly look forward to it, being able to travel with vaccinated children under the age of five. what concerns you the most when you're looking down the road in the next 60 to 90 days. >> a couple things. first, i think we stand in a much better spot than we were before with this pandemic because of those tools you laid out. because of vaccines now, kids

under five will soon be able to get it if cdc recommends it tomorrow. i think that will make an enormous difference. we've built up an arsenal of therapeutics. what concerns me is two things. one is obviously the pandemic isn't over. we have to stay with the fight. we have to continue using these tools. and second issue is that congress has got to fund this effort, because at some point as we get into the fall and winter, we're not going to have the resources to do a new generation of vaccines for every american, we're not going to have enough resources to have testing, and if we see a surge of infections in the fall and winter, we're going to find ourselves with an inadequate number of tests, without vaccines for every american who wants one, without the therapeutics. that will be a huge problem. it will be a self-enforced error. we should not be doing that at this moment. and that's the concern that keeps me awake at night. >> can i ask really quickly, just based on what you've seen in terms of the science, with each emerging variant, does the

virus become less lethal or more lethal, based on what you've seen so far? >> this is something -- there is a myth out there that every variant becomes less lethal. that is just not true. the virus doesn't care about being more lethal or less lethal, it's whatever causes it to spread more efficiently. we were lucky that omicron was less lethal, but that doesn't mean the next variant that emerges will be less lethal, it could be more. that's why we have to bring this pandemic to an end so we can take care of these issues. >> that's why i want everyone to make sure they keep their guard up ahead of it. dr. jha, thank you very much. appreciate it. >> thank you. a quick break. we'll be right back. hank you a quick break. we'll be right back. it's time to make your move to help reduce your risk of fracture with prolia®. only prolia® is proven to help strengthen and protect bones

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continuing to educate ourselves and broaden our minds? (woman vo) viking. exploring the world in comfort. some good news as this very busy week comes to a close, caroline edwards who testified to the january 6 committee has been medically cleared to return to full duty nearly a year and a half later. ms. edwards suffered a brain injury when she was assaulted on january 6. the video of her brutal assault was played at the january 6 hearing. she testified that the chaos at the capitol that day was like a war scene. we're happy to see her back in action. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. action

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all right, and thank you for being with us on this friday. nicole will be back monday, and i hope you'll join me this weekend, saturday, at 8:00 p.m. eastern, sunday at 9:00 p.m. as well. "the beat with ari melber" begins right now. hey, ari. >> hey, good to see you. i'm ari melber. we have new evidence of the conspiracy to storm the capitol. also tonight, a hit dog will holler. trump speaking out about how his own family is testifying against him, making him look terrible. and tonight as we end the week, i'm going to show you my worst smoking gun evidence. it's the worst on trump t