gaining national recognition for juneteenth had become an obsession of hers, saying, we celebrate the 4th of july, but we weren't free on the 4th of july in 1776. i want everyone to be aware that freedom is for everybody, not just for a few. and i'll be stressing that as long as i got a little breath left in me. and tomorrow, the grandmother of juneteenth will commemorate this new federal holiday, by going on, you guessed it, a nice walk. two and a half miles to her hometown of fort worth, texas. and on that very beautiful and very important note, i wish you all a very good night. from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thanks for staying up late with us. i will see you at the end of monday. of monday i'm ari melber and today the

new york times broke ground in the collective understanding of what happened on january 6th. the proud boys paramilitary group were part of that crowd storming the capitol that day and donald trump had shouted them out before the election. but the way these groups achieved the grave, remarkable active breaching the capitol, during that long schedule national security, event that's not been fully accounted for. that's what we're going to get into right now. because this was, of course, one of the only days of the year that both houses of have congress have all their members gathered, along with the vice president. many people tend to bring their families as well for that swearing in ceremony. and yet they got in, the very first january 6th hearing broke the news that prior to trump's reilly at the ellipse that day, those proud boys were actually casing the joint. >> just to be aware, to be advise, there's probably about 300 proud boys, marching eastbound and it's 400 block of

independence, actually, on the mall, towards the united states capitol. >> they went there 10:00 am, casing the capitol, at various entry points. on wednesday, we also learned about this nine-page document, strangely titled 1776 returns, because it was filed in federal court by one of the proud boys and it shows their alleged december 2020 plan, including filling eight target buildings in the complex with their own footsoldiers and their protesters, whom they call patriots, laying a kind of siege where they could issue demands. but even if they got in, why would they think they would be in a position to hold the building and make demands? again, as the understanding has evolved, as more evidence has come in, they were hunting lawmakers. if they had taken a few hostages, potentially lawmakers, there could have been a standoff in the capitol that could have lasted, there's no way for law enforcement to -- that.

without potentially putting the hostage lies for the at risk, if they found lawmakers, we, know from the the impeachment assessed again and this week's hearings were fleeing in hiding and we have seen more detail and more surveillance footage about that. but that kind of standoff would have helped further trigger the very certification delay that was part of trump's coup plan that was laid out by john eastman and peter navarro. so, some things really are coming into view right here, right now. january 6th was chaotic, to be sure, some actions weren't spontaneous in a crowd that large, of course. but the evidence tonight shows how these indicted proud boys were distinct from the rest of the mob and leaving it with tactical objectives. and that's thanks to a new york times investigation that spanned months showing this level of coordination. this is significant, both because it adds evidence to the record, and it may also, in some ways, fortify the criminal cases against certain individuals.

so, let's go through some of this. here's the footage of the very first breach on the 6th, before trump's speech had formally ended. and this was the first time rioters got past police, we which show they were already making progress on their tactical plan, the proud boys and one of their leaders, joe biggs conducting the strategy here to make that breach. >> in what's widely viewed as a tipping point, a protester named ryan samsel talks to joe biggs and immediately confronts the police. biggs and other leaders look on. samsel told the fbi that biggs encouraged him to confront the police, something biggs denies. as the crowd pushes forward, many of the proud boys join in. they start removing barricades and urge others on. >> [inaudible] let's go. >> the chain reaction has been set off. the attack on the capitol has

begun. >> that's how the attack actually began. it's been hard to sift through all this, because while some people showed up ready for battle -- with and here, with certain weapons, other proud boys, it turns, out were trained in coordinated for battle but took an extra step, and what you might call a kind of reversed camouflage or just plain clothes clam flush. they dress like they might have been -- and or even what might have looked to some like peaceful protesters. but that was, again, part of their tactical strategy. it's what they call as, quote, dressing as normies. >> this time -- and you know who it is when we say we -- but this time we're not going to be wearing the colors you're used to seeing us. in no. this time, myself and other leadership have decided we are going to go incognito. we will be blending in, weaving in and out like bleep, like an old lady with pins in her hand, making a sweater. you ain't gonna know [inaudible]

it could be antifa, it could be me. >> they sound dramatic, but you have to stitch that together with what really happened, their playbook, not random. certainly not a protest. a protest is protected free speech. this was people with alleged criminal intent and plans for violence, looking using the look or the rhetoric of political violence as a means to infiltrate an attack, which is why this new painstaking video is so important, to understand what they were doing. riling up the crowd, at one of the key entry points, you can see them identified [ inaudible earlier in the day, so we have evidence here from the times and the committee, which builds the case tonight, encouraging them. you will see them push past police, removing the barriers in the crowds way, including, at times, literal metal barricades. and attacking police, putting them on the offensive, with chemical spray, improvised weapons with shields. and then when they did meet some sturdy police resistance, as the times showed, they would

back off, regroup and then find other key entry points that they have done recon to find out where they had the best possible methods to breach. you can see that making a second breach of the day on the east side of the capitol. >> for hours, hundreds of protesters had remained behind the barricades. but within minutes of the proud boys arriving, the police will be overrun. it's their playbook in action again. one of the team antagonizes officers at the front, while another clears away barricades. >> oh! [inaudible] >> crazy. >> the momentum tips. the crowd easily break through the police line. and it sweeps through the next barrier as proud boys takedown fence after fence. >> the times report there makes

that important distinction that whatever one thinks of all those people -- because many more of them were willing to commit crimes and trespass -- they were waiting for hours around those gates, that sort of the order. but over and over again the proud boys use these tactics to move and convert and mobilize. they were five major advances where they played a critical role in breaching. the times documents how they entered the capitol from one direction, then they would go help with another breach at with another reach at another entry point. there were filling the capitol with the people willing to do criminal trespassing, which is the opposite of patriotism. but of course, this is there orwellian rhetoric, but they call the [inaudible] they are, getting patriots in. but the seaming case was not organically, is engineered, which addresses one of the questions that day, how even a large mob of even seemingly random people who don't know each other would actually do something like breach the capitol. yes, they did outnumber police. yes, parts of the trump administration were unhelpful, to say the least, in protecting the capitol. and we've done a lot of

reporting on that and the potential accountability for that. but again, as a factual matter, even with all, that it seems remarkable that people who were publicly summoned by trump's call to come to washington would pull this off. they would seem to mostly be strangers. it was odd. well, this evidence is part of the answer, just as these three hearings had shown how the violence was directed and ran parallel to the illegal coup plot, which built on trump's public call it a presidential debate, infamously telling proud boys to stand by. the committee, separately showing how that, which was heard by hundreds of millions of, when you look at the tv ratings of those debates and how they played online around the world -- it helped the group energize and mobilize more people. it's also [inaudible] because trump and some of his coup plotters originally open about some of the parts in the plot about stealing the election. -- trump tried to order pence to

seal it in public, we witnessed that going into the sixth. afterward, who have his most most controversial aides you see here, -- and navarro admitted the same plan, but they also disclaim any effort to direct violence. so, you have confessions and misdirections all at once, which brings us to one thing that trump is now claiming today, in his first extended public remarks since these damning hearings have begun. now, he's not claiming all the people storming the capitol are, quote, special, or full of love, as he did before -- which is a kind of a tell, because trump doesn't know tv npr. that's one thing he knows. he knows that i got level that tens of millions of people have been watching, at least part of the hearing, so they've heard his aides, family and lawyers recount a bunch of horrible crap that he did knowingly, that he lied about. and that kind of lie, the lie about the election, and the lies about what happened that day, it's not gonna cut it

right now. even donald trump knows that, so here's what he said today. he didn't talk about love and peace, he just said, quote, what happened on january 6th was a simple protest that got out of hand, end quote. and he also talked about pardons for the people who did the bad stuff of the sixth. now, this is donald trump's version of being in a kind of a middle ground, but it matters because we've heard the same defense in public from trump allies, and especially over on fox news. we've heard this defense in interviews on msnbc. that claim is false. the times investigation, the video you just saw, the evidence in the hearing, shows all of that. not something that just got out of hand. as the now indicted proud boys leader was in contact with convicted and pardoned trump advisor, roger stone, and that faces even larger questions. they joined forces and joined their own voices in addressing the rally days out from the insurrection, as the fbi

continues to probe another and different person that mailing the proud boys to trump's circle. this is big news. with that in mind, we turn right now to alan feuer, the courts and the justice reporter for the new york times. thanks for being here. >> hey, ari, how are you? >> i'm good, this was very painstaking work, and told in a very gripping manner about something that matters. as i mentioned, this video, and the videos we've seen, the testimony we've seen in the hearings, have clearly put pressure on donald trump, his defense sounds different. given the import here, if he could, walk us through how you did this, and anything else you think is important, journalistically, people should know from your investigation? >> sure. so, we start with the fact that for 18 months, it's been very clear that the proud boys played a central role in what happened on january 6th. the first conspiracy charges

against the proud boys were brought in late january, you know, within weeks of the attack itself. and since that time, there's been a steady drumbeat of indictments rolled out, culminating, this month, with seditious conspiracy indictment against five members of the group, including its former leader, enrique tarrio, and, you know, for other, you know, top lieutenants and meddlers. that said, what's hasn't been asked clear all along is the as clear all along is the level of coordination and tactical maneuvering that took place on the ground, among dozens of proud boys members on january 6th. and, you know, the reason that it's taken this long is that, essentially, the attack on the capitol was the largest, digital crime scene in, like, human history, right? no one has ever documented a crime scene like january 6th

was documented. you're talking about social media videos, you're talking about, you know, press cameras, cctv from the capitol itself, body cameras from police officers, it has just taken a long time to process, and analyze, and understand all of that video. and so, what's happened behind the scenes is an incredible community of open source intelligence researchers, private citizens, have dedicated their time, have left, in some cases, they are day jobs, to scour this video, to go through it minute by minute, second by second. people who have real detailed, real life understanding of the proud boys, who can look at a video and see a guy with a hand tattoo, and be like, i know

that guy. i know that tattoo. so, this community of scores of people had been working relentlessly for months. and essentially, we connected with them. they shared a lot of their findings with us. and the times visual investigation steam, which is, like -- these guys are amazing. you know, kind of received a a lot of this footage and information, and the patterns were discovered, and -- did further work, and were able to put together the 17 minute >> did they successfully breached the capitol without the proud boys? >> that's a good question. i would say, no. i would say the proud boys are integral to what happened on january 6th.

you know, if you are talking about, you know, pre-planning. if you're talking about, the sort of, like, you know, the strategizing in advance, you know, there is a lot of questions about what the public evidence says on that. but if you just look at the on the ground visual evidence, just focus on what is known, and what can be seen, it's very clear that the proud boys were central, instrumental, in all of these five breach points, and advance, that you mentioned before. >> and then, finally, allen, i mentioned the reporting it's going on. do you think it is likely that the link would be on stone to other trump officials, knowing that this written plan, this premeditated plan was in the works?

or is your view that the fact if it were true would have come out by now? >> i would exercise a measure of caution about 1776 returns. let's remember this was the least by the proud boys defense lawyers themselves. it's a loss a plan adjacent to what's on january 6th, but not exactly what's happened. and it was not a plan that was created by the proud boys. it was essentially given to enrique tarrio, the proud boys leader, by one of his girlfriends. and what's going to be interesting is to find out the authorship and the origins of that plan, right? and where it came from. and we will find that out. >> well, there you go. clearly, it's service journalism, and as you mentioned, tapping both the resources of the new york times, but also a lot of other people

in a fact checked communal way, which is interesting as well. so appreciate both what you're doing. learning about it, alan feuer, from the new york times, thank you. we've a lot more to get to, including the details about how the threat to democracy from the sixth continues. and how to stop it. stay with us. having liberty mutual. they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. woah! look out! [submarine rising out of water] [minions making noise] minions are bitin' today. (sung) liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. minions: the rise of gru, in theaters july 1st. we hit the bike trails every weekend (sung) liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. shinges doesn't care. i grow all my own vegetables shingles doesn't care. we've still got the best moves you've ever seen good for you, but shingles doesn't care. because 1 in 3 people will get shingles, you need protection.

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this is about their future. we need to act now to reduce carbon emissions and prevent wildfires from destroying our state. before things get worse. we've now witnessed three hearings in this probe, two this week. i don't know about you, but with all the watching and reporting on this, it can feel like there's so much new information that some of the evidence starts to run together. and we have a whole team of anchors, reporters and journalistic colleagues tracking it as we've been sitting at that big table with rachel, sometimes we go, was that new? did trump's lawyer say he just thought he thought they were committing crimes? what did trump call pence? this week's coverage was led by rachel maddow, we've now put together something special for you, right now. we hope it might even be useful. some of the key factual moments that stand out and matter in all of this, from the most

recent hearings as well as rachel's coverage. >> this morning, we'll tell the story of how donald trump lost an election. and knew he lost an election and, as a result of his loss, decided to wage an attack on our democracy. >> president trump claimed victory on election night, even though his campaign had not concluded that he won. >> i was saying that we should not go declare victory until we have better sense of the numbers. >> it was far too early to be making any calls like that. ballots were still being counted. ballots >> there were suggestions by, -- i believe, it was mayor giuliani -- to go and declare victory and say that we won outright. >> we heard president trump follow advice from a reportedly drunk and really giuliani -- >> was there anybody in that conversation who, in your observation, have had too much to drink?

>> mayor giuliani. the mayor was definitely intoxicated. >> i told him to stop, the that people were shoveling out of the public were bleep and that the claims of fraud were bleep he was indignant about that and they were idiotic claims. i thought, well, if anybody believes this stuff, he has lost contact with -- he has become the -- detached from of reality. >> for president trump's false claims about supposed fraud in the election may not have just been his vehicle to try to overthrow the u.s. government. they may have also been a vehicle to line his own pockets. >> between election day and january 6th, the trump campaign sent millions of fundraising emails to trump supporters. they continue to brush small dollar donors with emails, encouraging them to donate to something called, the official election defense fund. the select committee discovered no such funds existed. >> not only was there the big

lie, it was the big rip-off. >> the constitution says that the vice president of the united states oversees the process of counting the electoral college votes. >> today, we are focusing on president trump's relentless efforts to pressure mike pence to refuse to count electoral votes on january 6th. >> i remember hearing the word wimp, he called him a win, and i remember he said, you are a wimp, he will be a win, wimp is the word i remember. >> a big portion of the hearing today was about how john eastman, trump's lawyer on this issue, actually knew and admitted that this plot here in the president were pursuing was illegal. >> when mr. eastman came in, he said, i'm here to request that you reject the electors. i said, john, if the vice president did what you are asking him to do, we would lose nine to nothing in the supreme court, wouldn't we? i concluded by saying, john, in

light of everything that we've discussed, can't we just both agree that this is a terrible idea? >> i said to him, are you out of your effing mind? now i'm going to give you the best free legal advice you are getting in your life -- get a great effing criminal defense lawyer. you are going to need it. >> dr. eastman emailed rudy giuliani, requesting that he be on a list of potential recipients of presidential pardons. >> so you had, just a unprecedented constitutional jump ball situation with that standoff. and as i expressed to him, that issue might well, then, have to be decided in the streets. >> we finally got the connection between the illegality of their plot and the fact that there was violence. >> so, you are going to cause riots in the streets. and he said, words to the

effect of, there has been violence in the history of our country, to protect the democracy or to protect the republic. >> i'm hearing reports that pence caved. i'm telling you, if pence caved, we are going to drag bleep through the streets! >> hang mike pence, hang mike pence! >> investigators reported today that it informant inside the proud boys, the pro trump paramilitary group, has told the fbi that, in fact, had the proud boys been able to find mike pence on january 6th, they did intend to kill him. >> and that is all just this week. now beyond the past, as we look at the ongoing threat to democracy, i've got to tell you, you have to find it in order to catch it and stop it. that story is next. allergies don't have to be scary. spraying flonase daily stops your body from overreacting to allergens all season long.

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a look at otero county, new mexico. the southern part of the state, about five hours south of albuquerque. proud home of the world's largest pistachio. well, which is a nice local trivia. but also, brings us to a story that is nuts. without the election theories. in terms of voting, otero county is a bright red dot in a blue state. so biden won all of new mexico,

you see there, by double digits. but trump carried otero by nearly a 2 to 1 margin. in new mexico, the counties are responsible for administering their own elections. -- all of them are republicans, including couy griffin. tenure election administration. he was a rodeo cowboy, and these days, he has tried to meld those passions for his politics and the cowboy thing in cowboys for trump. but it's gone beyond just politics and into, well, potentially, supporting the storming of the capital, where he was on january 6th, and where he was charged with illegally entering the capitol grounds, and where he was convicted in march of that charge. today, griffin was back in d. c. to get his sentence, and he was given two weeks of jail, and a hefty fine. as a side note, you will see that that seems quite lenient, when you think about how many people are serving longer jail sentences, for what are considered more personal crimes, like say, marijuana use, or marijuana sales, as compared to storming the capitol, pursuing to a large insurrection.

but that's not even why we're getting into that, to that case. what we're dealing with is the legal fallout, not only from participating in the insurrection and navigating jail time, but wielding power over other elections the same time, which is, to use illegal term, pretty messed up. this county commissioner from otero has cooked up a new scheme now, not history, now, trying to wreak havoc on free and fair elections in that little corner of the state where they have some nominal authority. the trump cowboy there and two other republicans on this otero commission, basically, defied the normal and lawful certification of the results of the primary that was held last week. and then, they did the usual thing, that they didn't have evidence or something, because you don't want to deal with

something like that certification, but they just sort of said words about voting machines, and that they wanted to get to the bottom of it, as they would not certify, meantime. that missions, legally, required, though, to certify the election. and the supreme court of the state has already now ordered them to fulfill their legal duties, and certify the results by the deadline, so they're already losing in this particular, since the attorney general of the state, also take separate legal action, basically, defying what's that now supreme court order of the state. the legal deadline is today. the trump cowboy commissioner was in washington for the criminal sentencing. he left his sit open, put him on speakerphone, so he could announce that he was willing to face potentially, another and new criminal prosecution that voted against certifying these results. but when push came to south, as the thing goes, the trump cowboy was the only one willing to go out on that for all the lengthy. the other two republicans have been tried this, with something that we know, backs aspects of the january 6th insurrection. and the other two caved. and that's because law matters, facts matter, and if courts

actively oversee this, and actively have prosecutors who are willing to create consequences, well, suddenly, some of these people completely changed their tune. they voted to certify the results. but this is a little scary. and after another week of january 6th hearings, which is about january six, 2021, it is vital to see how this stuff, in one sense, being broken up, caught, and prosecuted. this is not a week to say nothing is working or happening. i just showed you some cases that are working, and we see sedition cases, and we see the proud boys busted, and their organization busted. but the threat started back with the way from donald trump are very much alive, and they're not fully addressed by even incremental process that we've been reporting for you. and trump wasn't the only pusher of the big lie. he had helped.

he had supporters, and he has people who are now in charge, formally, of administering our elections in certain places. many of those people have those jobs. some are competing for more power. and this is not about left and right. this is not about ideology. this is not about saying that only one party should be involved in overseeing elections, and as long as there are elections between parties, it would ideally want honest members of both, who uphold their oath to democracy and the constitution, to be involved. this is about radicalism, authoritarianism, and people who support dictators, as long as they think it will benefit them. so, it's a serious threat to democracy. and that brings us back to a very conservative judge, michael luttig, why should note, is not cheered on everything by everyone, if you want a little political counts context. ted cruz said, he believed he was like a father to him. take that for what you will. and yet, that is precisely why luttig is a pence advisor, and was on this issue, democracy, or dictatorship, was that star witness at the january hearing. >> donald trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present danger to american democracy.

they would attempt to overturn that 2024 election, in the same way that they attempted to overturn the 2020 election. >> as we've taken all together, we turn to former federal prosecutor, thanks for being here tonight. >> my pleasure, ari. we just walk through some of that's. your thoughts? >> i have to say. one of the things that are so important about the last hearing was seeing the pressure attempted on, pence and you have to think, ari, that could

happen again and i think that his warning was important because in addition to being concerned about a potential criminal prosecution, we need to be concerned about making sure that, for example, we would form the electoral count act, and we would build our institutions so that we never have anything that close to overturning our democracy again. >> when you look at the example of that local level, does it show that when both the courts and local or state law enforcement take this seriously, there is a deterrent, there is a correct? >> i think so, but of course, we saw just earlier today, donald trump talking about pardons. and i think the reason he's doing that is he wants to incentifies people to put themselves on that limb, take the chance for authoritarianism, because frankly, i think prosecution does deter, particularly in cases like this one. >> when you look at the hearing

thus far, we have endeavor tonight in our prime coverage, to take it together, the three hearings, and some of the takeaways. the final question to you, what are your big takeaways, when you think these hearings have made important or new points, not only for the country, but for the justice department where garland says is watching everything, every hour of? it >> i think the knowledge is so important. ari, you know as a lawyer, how important is it to prove knowledge. and not only that trump knew he had lost, really proving that john eastman, rudy giuliani, these lawyers themselves know that these legal theories were wrong. i think they have greater right liability than anybody here, and i won't be surprised if the justice department takes aim at them first. >> really interesting, especially coming from you, concise and clear, as we've

come to expect. renato mariotti, thank you, sir. >> thank you. >> appreciated. >> today, a top donald trump advisor who was in the white house, during the january 6th plotting, who had this plan to overturn the election, that individual was back in a federal courtroom, why? and why are they under so much heat, as we talk about accountability? i have a special report on that, next. with pronamel repair toothpaste, we can help actively repair enamel in its weakened state. it's innovative. my go to toothpaste is going to be pronamel repair. age-related macular degeneration may lead to severe vision loss. and if you're taking a multivitamin alone, you may be missing a critical piece. preservision. preservision areds 2 contains the only clinically proven nutrient formula recommended by the national eye institute to help reduce the risk of moderate to advanced amd progression. "preservision is backed by 20 years of clinical studies" "and its from the eye experts at bausch and lomb" so, ask your doctor about adding preservision. and fill in a missing piece of your plan. like i did with preservision" ♪ ♪

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we have to be able to repair the enamel on a daily basis. with pronamel repair toothpaste, we can help actively repair enamel in its weakened state. it's innovative. my go to toothpaste is going to be pronamel repair. >> yeah, i won't have anything more to say in this brief, it's up to him. >> wait, what's your book about? >> what's your book about? >> "taking back trump's america" is a book about how we lost the white house in 2020, and how we're gonna win it back in 2024 --

>> we'll be writing about -- >> the key thing about trump's america, by the way -- >> on amazon. peter navarro is the only trump white house official who was in office in 2021, to have been indicted for anything related to january 6th, for defying the house probe. he was there today with his lawyer, trying to keep him from discussing the actual case against him, but plugging his book, moments after pleading not guilty to two counts of contempt of congress. now, the book talking about inside the courtroom, mr. navarro's lawyers asked the judge to delay this trial, because they say he has that book, you saw him mention if they're coming out. and he's got it -- they literally cite his, quote, extensive marketing campaign plans, as a pitch for him to

get even more time before his trial, for these felony charges. they also argued, separately, they would be more time, because of what they've u.s. complex, legal issues in the case. now, navarro and his lawyers are attempting to make these arguments. but often, but better artist and. this these where week, and not having any of it. finding on record that quote, it's not that complicated the case. navarro losing their request further delay, the trial is now set for november. it is a felony trial that goes forward, completely separately from anything happening with a january sixth committee, or the control of congress, because of the referral to the justice department which hasn't changed at all the midterms matter what happens, this thing would continue to go, unless mr. navarro and his lawyers prevail in some other victory in the procedural runoff to the trial, which as i show you today, is unlikely. it's unlikely. this january sixth probe has conducted effectively over 1000

interviews, but they have not broken through and sat down with two people close to trump that you see here, navarro and bannon. white house insiders are the only two allies criminally charged for refusing to testify against this lawful probe. now, then at that time going into january 6th, he was a former aide, and navarro as mentioned, is different. he was one of the last loyal trump aides still working inside the white house in 21, pushing the plan to steal the election. this is why these witnesses are not just people who are close to trump. they are people who have made partial concessions, partial admissions, about trying to overturn the election, and fairness, some of them insist everything they thought they wanted to do was legal, they've disclaimed the violence, as i mentioned earlier in the reporting. the testimony, though, could be important to this probe. to put it another way, the committee viewed them as potentially as important witness as the chief of staff, meadows, who is seen in so many reports, texting with everyone about the horrors of the sixth.

they have thus held these two and meadows and one of their aid in contempt, a severe step that is just four out of the thousand, as i mentioned. navarro is at least, clearly, a significant fact witness. and perhaps more, which would be bad for him. and as a fact witness, that's why, among others, i have had him as a guest here on msnbc, for more than one interview. including, in a most recent interview, what turned out to be the night before he was indicted for the case that you saw him speaking on today. at that time, given the issues about whether there is a reason to comply or a possible legal reason not to, i pressed him on this argument about privilege. >> executive privilege does exist and can be litigated. the former president has not invoked it, publicly, or in

writing, for you. can you answer, once and for all, why you should -- [inaudible] >> jamie raskin, okay, and talk all he wants. the president is not gonna cooperate with a kangaroo committee -- >> he has every right to offer his response. but the reality is, that response shows what the judge said today. privilege is not that complicated. thus far, based on the public evidence, mr. navarro has no stated claim of privilege from the former president, and thus, very little to rest the privilege case on. now, how does this all play out in court, with the trial set? we turn to danya perry, a former federal prosecutor, and former deputy attorney general in the state of new york, as we look at some of the other individuals there, families have testified these individuals defying, and go to trial for it. thanks for being here. >> hi.

>> what do you think of what mr. navarro specifically would face here, with the judge previewing the idea that it's not that complicated? >> yeah. mr. navarro has made it simple. he could have marked it up. he could have avoided indictment, no doubt, by doing that. as mark meadows and dan scavino did. instead, he decided to maybe help him market his book, who knows. but to completely flooded the issued congressional subpoenas, and just ignore them. and assert this blanket claim of privilege, without as you point out, the former president invoking it. and when other judges have already held that it doesn't apply. and as a matter of law, all he had to do was go sit for his deposition, and invoke privilege, question after question, topic by topic. that, alone, could have avoided these two misdemeanor charges that he now faces.

so, it's right. the judge is absolutely right. i couldn't agree more. this is pretty simple, pretty cut and dry, did he or did he not comply with these congressional subpoenas? a jury can decide, but it seems already cut and dry. >> and the committee wants to speak with him for the same reason that we've seen the evidence they have throughout these hearings, that people of different reasons. for whatever involved, in or why they are touting it, but you take it together, you get and two and, on the emails, and enter and on the documents, and enter and on the meetings, and you start to build up what's really happened, even a very high level calls, like trump to pence, or how many people were in on with navarro cost this week, what many view as a legal, plot, illegal plot, i, mean to stage a coup. what's us do think the committee would like to know from mr. navarro? >> both he and steve bannon

could have shed a lot of light on both that green bay sweep, and there were other iterations but, the plot to overthrow the election. as the committee has laid out, it was a multi-pronged, sort of hydra headed, beast, and every time, one avenue, possible, means to overthrow the election was cut down, two others would grow in its place. and clearly, as a person was right in the middle of it, for sometime, along with steep in, he could have shed a lot of light on exactly as you say, who was involved, what they decided, what they knew, and in particular force, what his boss knew at the time? >> and then, finally, mr. bannon has led this sort of public revenge threat response. and navarro seems to be echoing that as well, in that interview we showed. he started talking about their gonna get back in power and go after these public officials,

et cetera. does that in any way affect their looming trial, the doj, for example, trying to use that to limit further what comes into evidence we've been. do you view that as basically out of court crap, or could it actually affect the contours of the trials, if they're prepared for it? >> you know, i think it may already have affected him. his indictment was sealed, and he was arrested publicly, which is like unusual for a misdemeanor case, for a person who is not otherwise a clear risk of flight, or a danger to the community. and it may very well be, i don't know, but it may be because the government believed that this is a person who doesn't respect the rule of law. and so, it may be that, you know, it shows up in other ways, and affects evidentiary rulings, and perhaps even a gag order. that is highly, highly unusual.

and the judge would have to make findings that he is either tampering with the jury pole, or actually creating some kind of threat. he's out there -- >> to your point on the recent court history, they did get a judge at the pre-arraignment state, to approve what you are calling, that more aggressive type of arrest on the finding that there was a risk of evidence tampering. danya perry, good to see you, have a good weekend. we'll be right back. if you have advanced non-small cell lung cancer,

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eastern, or online at ari melber.com. we'll be discussing the january six probe was an msnbc viewers. -- that's the best way to connect with me, online or on social media if you're into that sort of thing. one reminder, rachel will be back here on monday night, social see you then. now, we turn to the last step -- in for our friend lawrence. hi,. hey ari, thank you very much. and a social media thing, i'm into that kind of thing. [laughs] thanks a lot, ari. have a good weekend. was the third january 6th sixth select committee hearing on donald trump's efforts to overturn the election the biggest subtweeting history? because june 16 was the seventh anniversary of this. ♪ ♪ ♪ yep, that's right. it's been seven years since donald trump started his takeover of the republican party