that is tonight at 10 pm eastern, on msnbc. it is streaming now on peacock. thanks for watching the katie phang show. be sure to watch us anytime on twitter, facebook, instagram, or tiktok. the handle -- i will be back tomorrow morning at 7 am eastern. michael steele, my friend, is in for velshi next. he falsely told the american people that the election was not legitimate. >> i made it clear that i did not agree with the idea of saying that the election was stolen and put it out the stuff that i told the president -- he has grown detached from reality. >> in your judgment, what were the chances of president trump winning the election? >> after that point? >> yes. >> none. >> it is on ambiguous that the vice president does not have the authority to reject

electors. >> make no mistake that the vice president's life was in danger. >> the committee is going to reveal the details of the pressure campaign. >> i am telling you, if it is coming we are going to drag him through the streets. >> [inaudible] >> remember the word wimp. he said that you are a win. when is the word i remember. >> it is a different tone tone that i heard him take with the vice president before. >> do you remember what's she said, if i recall. that the key word. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> good morning. it is saturday, a june 18th. i am michael steele sitting in for velshi. we begin this morning with a special hour on another stunning week of revelations from historic public hearings

of the january 6th select committee. we have the clearest picture yet of a president donald trump's farfetched plot to overturn the 2020 election loss in a run up to the attack on the capitol and his role to induce violence. they presented evidence that trump was told numerous times that he had lost the election but lied about fried anyway. this was a desperate attempt to remain in power. the hearings give us new insights into trump's bullying campaign against a former vice president mike pence. it argued that they launched onto a proposal by john eastman, that pence had the power to single-handedly ignore the will of the american people. they blocked joe biden's legitimate win. in more detail than ever before, the committee argued that both trump and eastman were aware that this plot was not just unconstitutional, but also

illegal. they still proceeded to put the squeeze on pence. numerous testimonies from advisers and even from trump's daughter, ivanka, recounted how they riled in the morning of january 6th in an attempt to get him to comply with a scheme. the committee argues that because pence refused to bend knee that day, trump turned a crowd of supporters against his own vice president and sent the violent mob to the capitol to find him. they dispelled any doubts about whether the chance of, quote, hang mike pence, were genuine. >> approximately 40 feet, that is all there was. there was a 40 feet between vice president and the mob. make no mistake that the vice president's life was in danger. a recent court filing by the department of justice explains that a confidential informant from the proud boys told the fbi that the proud boys would have killed mike pence if given the chance.

>> to quote david bowie and the rock band queen, pence was, quote, under pressure that brings a building down. the committee praised him from committing a crisis by refusing to go along with trump's plot. the panel is now preparing for another week of hearings that will focus on the attempts to course the department of justice into legitimate aside putting his loss. speaking of the doj, the caribbean so cooperating with the recourse to share transcripts about the witness interviews. the documents are, quote, a critical to the work to investigate the riot. joining me is a betsy, a national correspondent for politico and msnbc contributor. also with, us joyce vance, former u.s. attorney and co-sister of the sisters and laws podcast and msnbc contributor. betsy, let's begin with you, what is the goal by displaying more and more evidence of this

rift between trump and pence leading up to and during the insurrection? >> they are showing how deliberate and how planned in advance the pressure was to get them to reverse the election. everything else they laid out and wonky detail at a recent hearing was that trump himself and john eastman, his lawyer, were both told over and over that the scheme that they were trying to perpetrate was very illegal. we. it is not totally. -- according to the top house lawyer eastman conceded that the scheme they're trying to roll out was going to break the law. greg jacob also said that, in a conversation with eastman, eastman conceded that not only would the scheme have broken the electoral count act, but

also if they went to the supreme court to try to get the electoral count act overruled, they would lose nine to nothing. that concession was really important. it just shows the extreme lengths to which president trump and the chosen legal advisers were willing to go to try to overcome the probe. trump was surrounded by lawyers telling him that he lost and telling him that the steps you want to take were not okay. he basically lawyer shopped until he found the one person who was willing to say, actually, you won. we can push the vice president to make this happen. that is the rich, new picture that we got over the last hearing. >> that is the interesting a quirky part, joy's. one of the key things that the committee has highlighted is that john eastman was aware of the illegality, the total illegality of the plan. to have a pence overturn

biden's win. he proceeded to pressure pence anyway. even though eastman is not testifying for the committee, can his seeking of that pardon, it does not do? is that an admission of guilt? how does that change the narrative that both trump and eastman are putting out there that this is all good? >> the committee does not operate under the rules that i would have to operate under as a prosecutor. there is no limitation on these sorts of evidence that they can introduce. they have used this particular piece skillfully. as a lawyer, as a very good lawyer, john eastman clerked on the supreme court. when he seeks a pardon, he obviously understands what he is doing, the implication is that he believes that he is in serious trouble and has committed crimes. the committee then explains, when they come in to testify in

front of them, he takes the fifth amendment 100 times. this means that he thought that the answers to 100 questions, if you answer truthfully, each of those answers would intend to incriminate him. the committee does that to give us a little bit of context for everything that we hear. michael, this is not tough. if we back out of the weeds a little bit and think about what the scheme was, it is clear that it was not a legal political maneuver. the scheme was this, how have the vice president of throw the election. have mike pence say that he has not like the count and say that there was something improper in the count. he's breaking the system. he will not certify the count. the thing that we know about this that is illegal is that john eastman acknowledged it. when he was asked, when he was point blank about the part of that gore could've done this in 2000, when he lost, he could have used this in this contested election to claim victory. eastman says, it would have

been wrong for al gore to do it. it would have been wrong for kamala harris to do it in 2024. you should tell mike pence to do it now. >> joyce, let's follow up on this right now. the bottom line, how difficult will it be to prove that he understood the illegality of everything that he was doing just during this particular plot? >> if we're talking about the justice department to not prosecute a case, this is what we are talking about, it is difficult but not impossible. here is why it is difficult. there is no direct evidence so far coming out of trump's mouth. what we have is something pretty close. we have people who say that they were with the president and told about it was we go. none of them said that he acknowledged the illegality. this means that it is circumstantial evidence used to get there. there are prosecutors that are not strangers to circumstantial evidence. during the liberals, judges

will instruct the jury on the law. they will explain to them that circumstantial evidence was as valid as direct evidence when you are coming to difficult issues like what is going on in someone's head and forced to rely on circumstantial evidence. there is a constant barrage of person after person that is explaining it is illegal. there is a loss in 60 lawsuits where not a single judge found that there was a fraud in the election. this includes a ten judges appointed by them themselves. this is an amalgamation of all the evidence that prosecutors will ultimately lose -- use if they indict trump to explain his state of mind. >> betsy, back to you. we have news that they are seeking to speak with jenny thomas, the wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas with her connections to overturn the election. or do we hope to hear from her testimony if it happens? >> but they are interested in, of course, is the work she did up until the turn of the

election. and any implication that she has with john eastman and the work he was spearheading. what is really weird about this is that it took the committee such a long time, even just to send a thomas a polite letter and not a subpoena to ask her to come in and answer a few questions. for months now, we know that ginni thomas is connected to the scheme to overturn the election results. this has not been a secret whatsoever. despite that this committee has been unusually aggressive in so many other ways, including a multiple republican members of congress, which is a big deal. for whatever reason, they chose to proceed with gloves in the case of jenny thomas. only now, in the 11th hour, are they asking her nicely to answer questions. it was internally inconsistent of the way that the committee handled the approach to thomas. it generated friction within

the committee. the question now is if the committee will have buyers remorse as they get the information that they want from her and realize that it could've been helpful many months ago. >> this is betsy woodruff swan joyce vans. thank you for being with us this morning. joining me now is olivia, the chief political strategist for the new america movement and served as a senior adviser to vice president mike pence. olivia attended the january 6th hearing where the committee explained how dangerous the situation that trump or put his vice president in on that day. olivia, great to see you this morning. what was it like for you attending the hearing on thursday. do have a sense or know before the hearing just how close the violent mob made it to vice president pence? >> i have certainly been concerned in the lead up to january six because if there

was going to be violence. i was conserved as a trump began tweeting. i never imagined that the mob would come within 40 feet of him. when they said that i was in the hearing. i had to tell you that i turned away from watching the footage. i looked away. i looked at sergeant gonell. i looked over to see how close they were threatening his life he said he could hear the mob and their chance but he never knew that they came that close. it goes to show the grave danger at that moment where the president of the united states put his own vice president in such danger. it is a thing that i know is real and so hard to process to think that this happened in the united states. >> it is a stunning revelation to come to that truth about

your boss, friend, partner. you know the vice very well. i know him. you know him a lot better than i do. you worked closely with him. what do you think is the sense that he had? what was going through his head about all of this and getting this information about the situation he was in and realizing that he's on an island by himself? >> he was certainly stuck in this moment. he is grateful that his family was there although their lives were in danger. there are pictures of him and pence standing there when he looked at the video. as the heat finally calls the rioters off, it was so striking and unbelievable. i think going into it, mike pence knows donald trump. he knows what he's capable of. he had seen him bully people. i do not know that he was surprised that this was the rapid he would incur. i think it just being his loyal

surge or it would not come. i think he went into the situation knowing the risk and knowing the anger that was going to come this way. do i think that he thinks that the mob would be charged in his direction? likely not. i could see the chatter all nine. as i see the rhetoric, i went into hiding myself. i protected my own family because i knew what was going to be descending on the washington d.c. town. we have seen what donald trump's words are capable of when it comes to galvanizing his support groups. >> we have not heard from the vice president of all of this he is gone about his business and are as laying the grounds for the 2024 presidential run we are learning details about this a phone call between the president and the vice president. why has he not said anything? why has he not come forward and been more public about that

moment with the president and the moments on the hill on january six? >> i think he is relying on a jacob and mark shorts who were closely to them. to tell the truth about the facts and everything that went on behind the scenes. i do not think that he would have much more to share other than the conversation directly that he had with the president. i do think and know that mike pence takes executive privilege very seriously. this could be part of it. to be honest, i have been wanting my former boss to come forward and speak publicly about this and address it. you cannot be half in and half out on the maga movement. i think he is trying to balance on both sides of the equation. he is looking at a 2024 presidential run. the better thing for the country would be to hear from mike pence directly and then, maybe, that would impact the group and it will continue to

move on based on the lies of the stolen election. in the lead up to june, his june primary, more than half of the governor races across the country include an election denying candidate. i say this to bring the point that this is a situation with donald trump and all these people who knew that what they were doing was illegal. it is still impacting the country today and impacting future elections to come and it is very serious for our country. y. top aide to president mike pence. thank you for being with us and part of the program. no one knows the extent to the bullying and -- like his former fixer michael cohen. he joins me next. we dig into the former danger of what mike pence faced on

that dark day. >> make no mistake about the fact. the make no vice president's mistake about the fact that the life was in vice president's life was in danger. recent court danger. a recent filing by the department court filing about of justice the court explains that it confidential informant from justices claims about the confidential informant, the proud boys told the proud boys the fbi told the that the fbi, the proud boys would have proud boys would have killed killed mike pence if given the chance. mike pence if given a chance. this witness, from the fbi, affidavit refers to his w one stated that other members of the group talked about things they did that say, and they said that anyone they got their hands on they would have killed, including nancy pelosi. that one further stated that members of the proud boys said that they would have killed mike pence if given a chance. mike pence if given a chance mike pence if given a chance for strength and energy. woo hoo! ensure, complete balanced nutrition with 27 vitamins and minerals. and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. ♪ ♪ liberty mutual customizes your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need.

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times is shedding light on the proud boys and the impact they made on this takeover.

-- >> the new york times found that the group moved in a coordinated manner that was unlike any of the other rioters storming the capitol. the report quotes that over and over in the capital -- [inaudible] directly joining in the violence. leaders were able to reassess and teams of proud boys targeted new entry points into the capital. i should note, nbc news has not independently verified the times of reporting. the leader of the proud boys denied that any kind of prearranged plans to storm the capitol were made. the former leader and four of his subordinates are set to go on trial in washington d.c. in august. joining me now is what, an msnbc national security analyst, former fbi agent, and a fellow

at the foreign policy interest institute. clint, it is good to see you. in addition to what we have heard from the committee, what is this reporting tell you about the level of involvement and coordination among the proud boys during the january 6th event? >> michael, several things have come up over the last weekend one, you are meeting with the oath keepers and it is something that i did not know about the day before. this was at the start of the hearings. there's also conspiracy indictment that came out a couple of weeks ago. some of the new evidence that has come to light. the plan was very much a part of the capital. it seems it was always a part of it. other things went back to the capitol and it was not about the value that the. the way that they were dispersed and over and two points and the critical role about entering the breach sites.

what is interesting about the conspiracy charges is that they knew that they could do some form of a breach and that there would be other who followed into the building. this is the case, at least from my perspective. when i tried to argue was that not everyone there is an extremist. the extremists who were there helped get a re-up into the building and really created the situation where people who were just protesters now have the opportunity to commit a federal crime. that is why this is so important to get to the bottom of the oath keepers and the proud boys of this conspiracy. >> that's a good point. federal prosecutors are say that a dad a thy document was used by the leaders of the proud boys to lay out a plan to occupy capital buildings using covid operators to allow patriots into the government offices to enforce a new election. how could this be used to this evidence against the proud boys who deny that they had prearranged plans to storm the capital.

they have a document that says otherwise. >> a couple things. i think it is a useful document for the prosecution. they also to be careful. another thing that is not followed in the document, imagine every individual that goes up, they say they'd say they do not see the document or was not aware of it. you can undermine a prosecution. i think that a heavier weight of evidence that i have seen so far is in the value. it is in internal communications. this is what the proud boys, leaders, and those around the building were celebrating the successes. success is not just protesting. it is getting inside the capitol. that is the most damning part of all of the evidence but i have seen so far. the document of the 1776 returns show that it is clear what they are trying to do. i think this roll turned into a much more powerful prosecution overtime. >> all of this is right on the doorsteps of the midterm

elections. how concerned are you about local extremist groups that still deny the 2020 election results and the fact that we now have these folks running for elected office? >> that's my bigger fear, really, the residual result of the insurrection. protests have gone to a much more local place. you can see this across the country. last year we are talking about school board meetings that were getting out of control. now we are going to talk about local election places and election workers who are being intimidated. in some cases, you have to ended its who died the result outcome ally of the elections. then you have others who are endorsing and supporting those who deny it. in related to these cases, we have a mix of extremist working along the guard scenario where we can see intimidation of voters at city halls and town halls. we could see it at state capitals going into the fall. we know what they will be.

there are probably a dozen or so of these elections where we have these and trying to deny the outcome of the 2020 election. it will lead them to denied the 2020 election if they do not win. it is a tougher challenge for the federal government to try to protect. who was in charge out in these locations. does a city or local government have the capacity of doing it? -- it was quickly overrun when a massive large group of people got. there is hard to enforce any laws at that. point capital, while there was a disaster that day, there was a response in a few hours. there will not be such responses in local jurisdictions. >> clint watts, bank you my friend. appreciate you. coming up, no one knows the bowling and drifting closer than michael cohen. he joins me right after this break. r this break. le with my trusty team ♪

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hour on week two of the january 6th select committee public hearings. according to investigators donald trump's scheme to overturn the 2020 election was not just a big lie, they were also part of a big rip off. in monday's hearing, the committee tied the spread of the big lie to donald trump's fundraising methods. the committee says trump sought donations for when he and his campaign call quote, official ellen russian defense fund, that would pay for defense fees that would pay to overturn the 2020 kym election results. the campaign pledged to raise $250 million. but the committee says that fund never existed. instead, the money went to pro trump political pact, and fundraising emails for that bogus election defense fund, was sent out right down to the. and they were continually put out into the ether. just one hour before the effect attack on the capital, an email

went out with the subject line reading, this is our last chance. fight back. >> not only was there the big lie, there was the big rip off. jonas deserve to know where their funds are really going. they deserve better than what president trump and his team did. joining >> joining me now is michael cohen, donald trump's former personal attorney and fixer. he is the host of the makeable podcast and author of the book disloyal, a memoir, the true story of the former presidential, the former personal attorney to president donald j trump. michael, welcome good to be with you my brother, this fine. morning >> yes, fine morning. it is certainly a fine morning for donald trump in his coffers that's for sure. >> so you and i feel like i've been a chorus of two. maybe knowing how many is raised inside the republican either, and you know and all

trump. so what is your reaction to the committee's findings regarding the official election defense fund? >> sure, i think you may also forget, you may be forgetting that i was also the vice chair of the rnc finance committee, despite the fact that i was actually a democrat. so what do i? think i have watched the trump grift going on now for more than a decade. and they are not going to stop. i mean, it is just what he does, and it is sad to see that there are so many people out there that have so much faith in him, after they see exactly what is going on. all you need to do is watch the january 6th theories, and you start to see, seriously what's a menace this man has been, and how terrible that he has treated our country. >> so, you have got this revelation about this entity and all of the money it has

raised. trump and his posse raising $250 million for the specific, and very fake defense fund, after the 2020 election. but according to the new york times, money went to donald trump junior, and kimberly gilford. >> are you? shot >> no i'm not. shocked which >> i am shocked, because i am shocked that donald would allow kimberly gargoyle to end up with $60, 000, or don jr. to end up. this is his money. i mean the time that you send your money to anything that has his name attached to, it it's his money. and as we know donald trump doesn't like to part with a single dollar. not whether it's for his children certainly. as you know i have a law suit pending against trump for money that he still owes me for legal fees. listen, i should call somebody at his defense fund because that money is going to either

buy him a new airplane, it is going to pay for some of the fines and leans that he is going to end up probably having on his property after the new york attorney general finishes with him. but you know, mike, if i can just another conversation for a quick second. did you get a chance yesterday to watch the faith and freedom coalition? because i actually did, and there was something that really just jumped out at me. because you know, i've been talking to you for years about this, and it is also covered heavily in the book. that donald trump is like a mob boss, and he talks and. code did you notice that yesterday as well? >> yes, of course, of course. and that really is the central banking and the rub for me when it comes to trump. you and i have both seen how he operates. firsthand, nothing happens in the trump world without him wanting it to happen. i mean from the color of a child in the bathroom to wear

that 200 and $50 million is going to go. so, what does it say about this overall effort, and the level of involvement by donald trump, that he encouraged this fundraising under false pretenses? i mean it doesn't matter whether donald trump knew the minutiae of the detail. he just needed to know that he was getting what he wanted out of it. >> right, he is a bottom line guy, and let's not forget that this isn't the first grift. let's not forget about the has presidential nagao committee. well that fund, which raised over 100 and $7 million. i was involved in that. in terms of fundraising, nobody knows it's like $70 million that's missing for many many years. i mean, it is really a terrible thing that people expected their money is supposed to go to where it is expected to go. and that doesn't work in trump

world. it is whatever donald wants. i mean, that is how it was in the white house, that's how it was at the trump organization, and it is the way that it is going to be going forward. because, look, i have constantly said this, and again this goes back to some of the comments you made yesterday at that coalition. when he turned around and he said, that he may seek a second term in 2024, very seriously and then we also talked of course about giving the pardons to hundreds of people that were arrested in the wake of the january 6th attack on the capitol, and the reason i bring this up is because it goes right into the grift. and this is sort of like two things, mike, that we have to unpack here. and again, it goes right back to donald being a mob boss and speaking in code. the first part of this is, you have to look and see what is going on here. he's dangling pardons, he has done this before. because when he is really saying here is that he doesn't

want these people to cooperate, and if you don't cooperate, then i will pardon you. and here is where the grift comes in. first and foremost, he is not going to become president again, and second he doesn't know you. and more importantly, he doesn't care about you. but here is the fundraising grift. by saying, if i run and if i seek a second term, what is he doing? he is keeping these people engaged. it goes right back to the compensations and how is he going to keep the flow of money into his coffers. i mean, look, at the end of the day you can say whatever you want about donald trump. donald trump is the greatest grift are in the history of the united states. plain and simple. >> michael cohen, i knew you would bring the bag into breakfast this morning. thank you, my friend. i appreciate. you >> anytime a friend, you've got. it >> coming, up former president donald trump certainly did not had his domineering leadership style. is billing listed on display

over tweets, and press conferences, on the debate stave, and in the midst of the january 6th insurrection. january 6th insurrection >> i remember getting a notification on my phone, and i was sitting in a room with robert and ben, and we all got a notification. so we knew it was a tweet from the president and we looked down and it was a tweet about mike pence it was a tweet abou mike pence it was a tweet abou mike pence more protection, more sun, more joy. beach defense® from neutrogena® the suncare brand used most by dermatologists

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mini-boss? i need a good night sleep so get out. oh. fine, because you had a nightmare. oh really, you too? good night. yes, yes, yes. good night. good night! i just want to sleep. >> i hope mike is gonna do the right thing. i hope, so i hope. so because if mike pence does the right thing, we win the election. all you asked to do, all vice president pence has to do, is send it back to the states to recertify, and we become president, and you are the happiest people. >> that was donald trump on january 6th, roughly 18 months

ago, whipping up his supporters into an anti democratic frenzy. making it seem like he had a chance to maintain the presidency, despite losing the 2020 election. for trump and his supporters, it all came down to then vice president mike pence, and whether he would overcome his morals to certify the presidential election results, and subvert the will of the american people. when pence did not go through with, it he became an obstacle for the former president and the target of the mobs i are. putting pence and his family's lives in danger. well thursday afternoon, during his third public hearing, january 6th select committee highlighted a specific phone call on january 6th between trump and the former vice president, ahead of the certification process. a conversation that confirmed what many of us have known to be true for years. that donald trump's pervasive bullying reached every level of the white house. >> mr. jacob, did you go to the

vice presidents -- on the morning of january six? >> yes. who else was with you? >> mark short, tevin o'malley, our communications director, and chris hodge than our legislative -- . >> and did the vice president have a call with the president that morning? >> he did. >> were you with the vice president during the call? >> so, we have been pushing, the vice president hadn't finalized his statement overnight. we were in the process of proving it so that we can get that out, and we were told that a call had come in from the president. the vice president stepped out of the room to take that call, and no staff went with him. >> the president had several family members with him, in the oval that morning, for that call. i would like to show you what they and others told the select

committee, about that call, along with never before seen photographs of the president on that call from the national archives. >> when i got in, somebody called me and said that the family and others were in the oval. and do i want to come up. so i went upstairs. >> and who do you recall being in the oval office? >> don junior, eric, laura, kimberly, lee meadows was there. at some point hopkinton. >> it wasn't a specific informal discussion, it was very sort of loosened casual. >> so then he sought at some point there was a tele-conversation with the president of the vice president, is that correct? >> yes. >> when i entered the office a second time, he was on the telephone with who i later found out to be with the vice president. >> could you hear the vice president or only or the president?

>> i get on the other president. >> but at some point it started off, as a covid and then became needed. >> the conversation was pretty heated. >> i think until it became somewhat, you know in a louder town, i don't think i was paying attention to it initially. >> did you hear any of that part of the phone call? even just the and the president speaking? from >> i did, yes. >> all, right and what did you? here >> as i was dropping off the note, in my memory i remember hearing the word win. either you called him a win. i don't know if he said you will be a win, win is the word i remember. >> it was also reported that the president that the vice president something to the active, you don't have the courage to make our decision. >> i don't remember exactly, but it was something like that, yeah. something like, you're not tough enough to make the. call >> it was a different tone than i had heard him take with the vice president. before >> did mr. trump share with you any other details

about what happened, or any details about what happened in the oval office that morning? >> that her dad had just had an upsetting conversation with the vice president. >> do you recall anything about her demeanor, either during the meeting, or when you encountered her in the office? >> i don't remember specifically. i think she was uncomfortable over the fact that there was obviously that type of interaction between the two of. them >> something to the fact of, this is the wording around, i made the wrong decision for or five years ago. >> and that the word that she related to the president call the vice president, i apologize for being impolite but to remember she said, her father called him. >> the p-word. >> coming up, more special coverage of this week's special hearings on january. six to this day, some lawmakers say that the attack on the capitol simply a protest that got out of. had really? here's a reminder of where the

insurrectionist minds were on that day. >> i heard that pence escaped. >> no. >> is that true? i'm hearing reports that pence caved. i'm telling you, if pence caved, we are going to drag mother -- through the. streets you politicians are gonna get -- drug through the streets. >> i guess the hope is that there is such a show support force here that pence's will decide to do the right thing according to trump. >> hang him out. >> bring out pence. >> bring out pence. >> bring out pence. >> bring out pence. >> bring out pence. matt pence matt pence matt

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close to catastrophe, thanks in part to mike pence, are with

democracy withstood the violence of january 6th. but the danger hasn't receded. >> the danger has not receded. that is committee chairman bernie thompson. american democracy came close to total collapse on january 6th, but the threat to democracy did not just disappear when the halls of the capitol cleared out that day. we know that, the ex presidents big lies spread from the capital to bakes to individual state. certain republican completely controlled legislatures tried to put forth fake electors to help overturn the election. and now there are dozens of election deniers running for office across the country. and that is just at the state level. that is not even considering the fact that nearly the entire republican parties united around the man responsible for the events on january six. and that the systems and policies that allowed this to happen, folks, they are still

in place. joining me now is an apple bomb. she is a staff writer for the atlantic, pulitzer prize-winning historian, and author of twilight of democracy, the seductive lure of authoritarianism's. it is tough to get seductive out this early in the morning, but here we. are >> welcome you treated in response to the video of congressman barry laudable giving that capital tour, quote the call was coming from inside the house. and that is the thing. nearly every republican in the house and senate are beholden to trump in this big lie. so how do we avoid another january 6th catastrophe, when one party is clearly lining itself on the side of anti democracy? >> so, first of all, not everybody was on the side of trump that day, and not everybody was on the side of trump afterwards. and i think it is very important for anybody who

watches this program, anybody who watches msnbc, anybody votes for the democratic party, to make distinctions within the republican party, and to reach out to people you know inside it. it is important that we understand there is a part of the party that has become increasingly autocratic, that suspects the legitimacy of our electoral system more broadly, that doesn't except that biden is president. and then there is a part of the party that feels differently. polling shows that, the actions, and the way that people speak inside of congress also show that. it is not just withdrawal thinking to imagine that there is still a different kind of republican out there. and i think the goal of, anybody who communicates, or anybody who is doing politics over the next several months is going to be to try to communicate with that part of the party and to try to change peoples minds. because what is really

important, is that the party not become seen as somehow an enemy, or become colored or painted with all the same brush. >> and, i really understand that. but, okay, in the face of all of this evidence, the polling is showing that that is not a trend line inside the party. that people aren't pulling away so much as they are leaning in. so, exactly what we say to these folks? what do you say to someone who still insist that this happened this way. trump stole, the election was stolen from. him what is the narrative that you put back in place for these folks to sort of move off of this authoritarian tilt? >> there is no single answer to this question. i mean, as i understand, it the purpose of the january 6th hearing is partly that. and nobody said that to me, i am just looking at the way that they have been put together. you'll notice that most of the

people who had speaking roles, weathers interviewers, or a spokesman for the hearings, a republicans. most of the people who are describing what the oval office was like, through the clips that you just played from january the 6th, most of the people speaking that day are republicans or people who are working for trump. liz cheney, who was a republican obviously, has had a prominent role in these hearings. and there is a way in which this the set of hearings, which have been designed with that in mind, are one of the last chances that we have to reach people. it is republican speaking, it is people who worked for trump, it is people who are inside the white house to move them well, including even his children. they are trying to tell us the truth about what has happened, and it is my hope that at least some of the republicans will hear that. at least some of them will tune into part of this story and, i hope again, that people

watching will make sure that their friends who are republicans, or their family who might have bought into this big lie or mythology, i hope you encourage them to. watch >> an apple bomb, you always bring the smarts. pulitzer prize-winning historian and staff writer for the atlantic. thank you so much for taking time this morning. really appreciate it. there are many things we can take away from the january 6th insurrection, and the hearings. so far. perhaps the most crucial is the fact that, this is far from behind us, folks. and with the next presidential election just two years away, it should serve as a warning for what is to come. we will get into that and much more news when velshi returns after a quick break. return after a quick break. after a quick break. stories of bipolar depression. i just couldn't find my way out of it. the lows of bipolar depression can take you to a dark place. latuda could make a real difference in your symptoms. latuda was proven to significantly reduce

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it is saturday june 18th. it is 9 am in the east and 6 am in the west. i am michael steele filling in for michael velshi. we begin with another week of stunning revelations from the january 6th committee doing a pair of public meetings on capitol hill this week. investigators share the fine details of their investigation. they showed panel clips of the trump administration to explore origins of the big lie. one of the key figures that emerged from the hearing was a