of dateline. we'll see you again next friday at ten, nine central. of course, all see you each week night for nbc nightly news. i'm lester holt, for all of us at msnbc news, goodnight. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> >> coming up on this hour -- of we're gonna break down the federal and state action with state congressman ig arnaud -- plus making sense of our precarious economic situation and what they've done to write the ship. later, ginni thomas's -- was far bigger than we had realized. we'll tell you about that. i'm ayman mohyeldin, let's get started. 's get started. tonight, we begin this hour with the senate negotiations on gun safety legislation. the question is, where do we

stand? less than a week after the bipartisan framework was publicly announced, it now seems that the two sides, as i expected, still have a lot of work to do. this week, texas senator john cornyn who was booed at the texas gop convention for his role in those negotiations, walked out a meeting with democratic negotiators, saying, it's fish or cut bait through talking. at issue are too central provisions of framework. one, red flag laws and how congress should ascent the vice states to docket them. a so-called boyfriend loophole. what method should be used that would be barred from purchasing fire arms. at this point, it is unclear whether the sticking points could pose a fatal threat to negotiations, but blue states are not waiting to find out. this month, near governor kathy hochul signed a slew of bills into law designed to curb gun violence, including raising the

age to purchase semiautomatic rifles. new jersey and california or are considering their own safety packages. now, we have to take a step back for a moment. the senate negotiations, the action in blue states, all of that is in the backdrop of one institution, the supreme court. any day now, the court will issue its first major second amendment opinion in more than a decade. court watchers expect that ruling could dramatically expand the protections afforded to individual gun owners. in fact, a ruling from the court could mean that gun owners could not need a permit to carry and concealed weapon. to ask where the nation stands on considerate now is far more complicated than it should be. joining me now is democratic congressman adriano espaillat of new york. congressman, it is always a pleasure, thank you for making time with us. i want to get your thoughts on the state of the senate negotiations. when they announced this last

week, i will admit, i was skeptical of it. i did not want to pour cold water on it. we are in need of some reform. your thoughts on where we stand just a week after the announcement. >> [inaudible] [inaudible] >> [inaudible]

[inaudible] >> congressman, i apologize, we were having audio problems there. we will see if we can reestablish a connection with you, make it one, and then we will come back to continue the conversation. in the meantime, while we try to establish a connection with congressman adriano espaillat, i would like to bring in mike collier, a democratic nominee for texas governor. thank you so much for your time, i appreciate you joining us. let me get your reaction to what i was talking about before that conversation. it was senator cornyn, the chief republican negotiator involved with the gun safety

talks. essentially being booed at the texas republican party convention. what does that say to you about, a, where the republican party is in your state, or the idea that these discussions will be welcomed by the republican party? >> first of all, thank you, ayman, for allowing me to visit you this evening. i saw the booing going on. i watched it on tv. it did not surprise me. those are not texans. those are zealots that have taken over the republican party in texas. the majority of texans do not see the world outweigh. we are for gun safety. i am certain of that. what you saw was a problem that ordinary texans to believe in democracy are confronted with in texas, which is that these odds have taken over the republican party and the political leaders pander to them. as a consequence, the things that need happen instate, like raising the legal age from 18 to 21, a 48-hour waiting period, back on checks, safe storage,

red flag laws, these are things that texans want. it ain't gonna happen as long as republican leaders are in charge because of what we saw and the booing and zealots that control the republican party in the state. >> we are still some time out from the races, but there is a new poll that shows that governor greg abbott's 15 point lead has shrunk to five points over beto orc. do you think the policy of guns have changed the policy of guns in your state? >> obviously, the situation in uvalde, was so heartbreaking and wrenching, it attracted everyone's attention to a real crisis that we face in texas around gun safety. it is one of many failures. i could list so many failures from republican leaders that i am running against, lieutenant governor dan patrick, who happens to be under our constitution considered the most powerful -- it has been one policy failure after another.

you want to talk about school funding, property taxes, our grid, you probably saw what happened in the grid, and now we have gun safety. it all factors into what i perceive to be a very strong desire on the part of texans to have democracy start working here, so that our point of view as the guns and everything else is reflected in with the legislator does. that is why beto is getting closer to winning his race. my pollsters say the same thing. >> how do you explain, i'm curious on your thoughts about mira flores. she is the republican that won a texas seat this week that has been long held by democrats. is this a one-off, or should democrats being paying attention? >> they should be paying attention to what happened in the valley and won't what happens with hispanic voters. this particular outcome and election did not surprise me. the wonderful democrat iran to i had a chance to me who had a difficult time or money because it is only for a district that

is essentially going to change in november. the new district in november has been drawn much more favorable to democrats. the candidate running and ad as a singing congressman who is well liked and respected. it will be a well funded campaign. we have to do our job. democrats are the ones that stand for such things as good economic security for families in schools and health care, we do it honestly and we fight for the little guy, so we have to do our job and get that message out. we will have a wonderful, strong candidate in a district that we will be successful in. >> mike collier, i will ask you to stick around for me, i will talk to you more later on in the program, along with our saturday night panel in a moment. i want to go back to congressman adriano espaillat, who now joins us by phone. congressman, i am glad that we are able to reestablish a connection with you. let me, if i can, go back to your thoughts on the negotiations revolving around gun reform, do you think there will be a deal? >> i think there will be an

agreement. obviously, what we proposed was a stronger bill, it had limits on magazines. it also had, -- as well as other provisions to not sell to people under 21. of course, it had some storage mandates for safely storing away your weapon. it was a stronger bill, but this is a step in the right direction, because it the boyfriend loophole. it does things for mental health. it also establishes red flag laws, although the state has it already. it will provide funding for states to decide to implement it. >> much of the agreement, as i understand it, has been around this so-called boyfriend loophole. i know it is something that democrats want, but it is almost a nonstarter for republicans. why do you think that provision

is so contentious for republicans? >> it shouldn't be contentious. whether someone is married or whether you have an abusive boyfriend that has an order of protection against him, that person should not have access to a weapon. i have had some cases in my district where women had been killed by jealous boyfriends that had weapons and orders a protection against them. clearly, this is something that is needed. women and families are asking for this. there should not be any objection to that kind of legislation. >> i know there have been some blue state leaders, as i mentioned, here in new york, kathy hochul, others, new jersey, california considering their own measures, stepping in where federal officials are falling short. do you think the measures that the governor has signed, like raising the age to buy a semiautomatic rifle to 21, are

enough are going to help? >> they certainly help. new york already has the strongest gun laws in the country, but the package that was recently signed into law by our governor makes them even stronger. i think is important to note that the supreme court is getting ready to roll on disability to get -- permits and new york state are very specific. they tell you whether you are a store owner, whether you can carry a weapon outside of your work premises, they are very prescriptive as to when and where you can carry them. to do away with that, i think is obviously a step in the wrong direction and sets us back. what's she signed into law will further strengthen new york state ghana's. >> let's talk about the supreme court real quick.

they are ruling on a new york -based case could dramatically expand the second amendment. talk to us about what is at stake here, what we should be prepared for, what concerns you? >> it concerns me, although the court has stated that there are limits to where you may be able to carry and unconcealed weapon. it concerns me that the very strict rules to get a permit will be done away with. new york has taken time and measure to make sure that if you are given a permit, you have a legitimate reason as to why you are carrying the weapon. to do away with that would be to throw things up in the air. i think people will be brandishing that on the streets of new york. i don't think that is good for new york, nor is it good for the country. >> congressman adriano espaillat, thank you so much, greatly appreciate time deceiving. >> thank you so much. >> after the break, we will discuss what more can be done,

if anything, to help lower prices on everything from gas is the food. but first, my friend richard louis with the headlines. a richard. >> hey, a good saturday to you. some of the stories that we're watching, some children there are aged five and younger are authorized to get pfizer and moderna vaccines. cdc director signed up on this saturday. a cdc panel endorse those shots to. babies as young as six months old are eligible for vaccines. the vaccines will be readily available next week. a man is in police custody for an alleged attack at the san francisco airport. authorities say that the suspect drove up to a departure terminal and assaulted three men with an edge weapon. the three men were treated for minor injuries. spacex launched a german satellite from a space force base in california. that happened this morning. the rocket lifted off the one day after spacex launched 53 of its startling internet satellites from florida. more ayman with a minimal hiding out of the break.

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united states could be barreling toward a recession. this weekend, a where oval office interview, president biden hit back, telling the associated press a recession is not inevitable. but perception often doesn't match reality. a new poll from the economists found that 15 per 6% of the country currently believe the country's interim recession.

that includes rapper cardi b, who got a lot of attention this week for this tweet. let's be clear -- it's not a mystery why people are feeling like we are already in a recession. inflation is skyrocketing, gas prices are at an all-time high. but unemployment remains historically low. a job growth is strong and consumer spending is soaring. that's just with our saturday night powell, tim o'brien is a senior economist for bloomberg opinion. natasha brown is the cofounder of the black voters matter fund. and back with us, my colleague, democratic nominee for texas lieutenant governor. thank you all for joining us. tim, i will start with you. you have better insights into this. what is going on with the economy right now? it's not black and white. some areas are soaring, others are struggling. explain to us how worried we should be about what lies ahead. >> we are in a very uncertain time because we are very have strong external shocks we cannot control. we have got the ravages of the covid pandemic still working their way through the economy. there was a massive supply chain disruption. biden cannot control those factors. those are, classically, what economists call exogenous

forces. the war in ukraine is causing a massive problem with food supplies. that has an inflationary effect, obviously, particularly on food. and then i think some of the spending programs -- i would argue the spending programs, they're spending programs were necessary. we need to address infrastructure. we need to address the needs of working americans. those things are now working their way through the economy. economists are making predictions about the impact of those things, where they will be. but the reality is, we are in such an unusual time, most economists are not certain where we are going. but there's a very good chance that we are going to go into a

recession. the federal reserve has been criticized for not responding quickly enough to inflation. and waiting too long to raise interest rates to deal with it. there is an offset, however, i economically, when you raise interest rates dramatically. it ends up, often resulting in a recession and unemployment. and working americans bear the brunt of that. and i think you've had the fed, over the last few years, try to add more to the balance in terms of looking out for the needs of working americans and not just being dogmatic about inflation. inflation now is so present and worrying that they feel they have a need to jack up rates to deal with it. it is likely that that is going to cause a recession. but no one is entirely sure yet. >> mike, how do you think the public will respond -- as somebody out there on the campaign trail -- to president biden's comments, that a recession isn't inevitable and what we just heard there as well from tim? with the economic forecast? how do you thread the needle between words of comfort and

assurance, but at the same time, not sounding dismissive of the concerns of ordinary americans and working families. >> working families are hurting. they are suffering. they are having an awful hard time to making ends meet. the price of gas is really hurting families. and they are right to be concerned. i can tell you, my perspective is not only as a candidate who talks to texans routinely as part of the campaign. i also make my living index, in the business community, in the energy industry. i can tell you -- and i've been around a long time -- i can tell you that when covid hit, and the economy basically shut down, the global supply chains shut down, we faced what could have been depression as deep as 929. as deep as we had a decade ago. i think our policy makers made the right move. they've been very aggressive with stimulus. as a result, we are at nearly full employment. the good news is, people have jobs. but inflation hurts. it hurts quite a lot.

and so the federal reserve, i think, is reacting to this -- we have learned, through the likes of history that if the federal reserve acts too quickly, it could drive us into a recession and people lose jobs. that's a bad place to be. if they don't react fast enough, then inflation can take off like wildfire. i think they've been very aggressive this week. the stock market is not the economy. but you can tell what people are thinking. and you can see that the stock market reacted favorably to that. i think these issues will work their way through, if it's done carefully, conservatively, we won't have job loss, avoid a recession if possible. but we also must take steps to ease the pain. because people are really suffering. it's not their fault. for example, i think we should do something about gas prices. maybe it is because i'm a texan, we're in the energy capital of the world and we are paying too much for -- i'd like to see policy makers do something about that. >> what do you recommend or what do you suggest they do? what can be done to alleviate the short term pressures we are facing? >> we have a supply and demand problem. when covid hit, price of oil went down to about zero.

when gas company stopped producing energy. then, all of a sudden, the band comes roaring back. with there is a long lag to build production back up. i think we should do a couple of things. energy companies making a lot of money right now keep that money, keep it working, bring it [inaudible] don't take cash out of their companies to do steinbeck's -- point number one -- point number two, we should invest very aggressively in electric vehicles. we know we are head of there. it's very attractive to people in the commodity pricing environment like this. we should be investing very, very aggressively, to look at the demand side of the equation. it will also be very good for climate and so many other good things. but we must understand, doing those two things, perfecting supply and demand will take time. and time is not what [inaudible] here about. they have to be ways, in my judgment, for direct subsidies to underwrite the high cost of -- and i would like to see more done work done on them.

i haven't studied which are the optimal programs, such as gasoline programs, you hear about other ways that you can give people direct relief temporarily. i'm calling on policymakers to lead that charge and give us some ideas that we can see one. >> natasha, one person told the new york times, quote, you always want to do better for your children than what you had. and you want them to have more opportunity and be in a better position in life. and i felt like i was headed that way, and now i feel like we've been kicked backed down the mountain. we need the whole mountain to climb again. your thoughts on the state of the economy and the messaging that needs to go around it, as we try to discuss here, the realities and the perceptions can sometimes be varying, even though ordinary americans are feeling the pinch. >> i think there is a couple of things. one, i think there's a disconnect away from [inaudible]

judge and hope the economy. we look at how the jean p is doing. we look at how the unemployment rate is doing. what we are not looking at is a measurement of peoples lives. but there are people suffering. today i was just at the poor peoples campaign march at washington d. c. and there were tens of thousands of people that actually would testify -- and not just in this moment. it's been over a period of time, where they -- are working people but they are not making the kind of money they need to take care of their families, where we are seeing housing prices soar. we are seeing gasoline soar. i think what's really important is for us to really understand that there is a disconnect, [inaudible] necessarily say and the health and the well-being of the stock market does not reflect what people are feeling in their day-to-day lives. there's a reality about around what the numbers are as a release to unemployment and other indicators. but there's also a reality of what people are feeling, we are seeing a rise of homelessness. and a rise in the economic

pinch, going to the least of these in our community. >> and it seems, latosha, that the republicans don't want to step in and help with some of these issues you are talking about, whether it's homelessness or some of the things that can alleviate the suffering of people in this country. they don't want to necessarily help people, they want to complain about the price of things going up, trying to blame it strictly on joe biden. >> not only do they not want to help people. in many ways, when you look at their policies, it seems like they hate people. at the end of the day, when people are working, why should people not get paid a fair wage so that when they are working, they can pay for a home for their family? a place to stay where their basic needs? while looking at what we know is a big economic pull of families,'s health care. there is a refusal to expand health care and when we look at republican states, many of them refuse to expand the aca. they have been showing they care about profit oh over people. but we have to do as a nation

is we are going to have to be honest about when we are talking about economic growth [inaudible] it has to be based on the economic well-being and health of a people. and -- of this nation, if they are essential workers we should treat them and we should pay them as such. >> mike, latosha, jim, i'm good asked you to stick around. we will have to squeeze in a quick break. i will talk to you later on in the program. after my break, my guest says, he wasn't allowed to began his university. now he is part of a class action lawsuit advocating for other lgbtq students. andrew hartsell will join me live to hear his story.

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conserved and conservative media as well. today, luckily today, the texas gop added a plank to the party platform that labels homosexuality, quote, an abnormal lifestyle choice. that is a lie, but in the midst of all this hate, countless queer americans are fighting back, like andrew hartsell, a former roberts university student, the center of a class action lawsuit that could keep religious schools or receiving federal funding if they discriminate against lgbtq people. andrew hartsell joins me now. walk me through a push due to go for the class action lawsuit. >> hi, thanks for having me. i am speaking up for the hundred thousand plus lgbtq students at religious universities nationwide who are being discriminated against. they are being expelled. they are being harassed. they don't have any legal protections.

i am speaking out so that they don't have to experience what i did. most of these students, they have similar stories as i do. i grew up in a small town outside kansas city, with very religious parents and very conservative parents. being gay was not okay. it is like a swear word in my household growing up. i came out to my parents when i was 14. they did not take it well. i was forced into conversion therapy, and i was told that i had to suppress my sexuality, because my sexuality was a sin, and it had to be suppressed, and that would never go away. i had to continue to suppress it. with this lead to was me inevitably aiding myself because of it. and i got a day and went through my entire has school experience, and when it came

time for senior year, my pressure from my parents to go to robert -- they wanted me to be an environment where they thought there would not be any gay kids. >> i am sorry that you had to go to that, and you, it is such a difficult experience, i cannot imagine. how did it feel to be at a college that is so hostile to lgbtq people? >> yeah, so i started there in all of 2017, and it was, frankly, very scary at times. it was lonely and isolating, because even though i had friends, there was a part of me that i could not share them. it was like they never really knew who i was, because i was afraid that i might get in trouble. it was only a semester into my experience, and i ended up attempting suicide because i

could not handle suppressing myself and my sexuality. i felt like i would rather be dead than alive. after that, i knew that i had to live authentically if i wanted to survive this institution. i ultimately got reported. in my junior year for being gay, and i was called into the dean's office. i was then subjected to more conversion therapy, which they termed accountability meetings, where, again, there were time eta i had to suppress my sexuality because it was a sin. i kept my hair down, and got out of there. i graduated is passed may at 2021. i knew that something was wrong, that i should not have had to have that experience, and no one should have that

experience. that is when i found the religious exemption accountability project. what they are doing, they partnered with myself and 48 other plaintiffs in a class action suit against u.s. department education, which is advocating for all lgbtq students at all religious universities nationwide so that they don't have to have the same experience that we had. >> can i ask, real quickly, what are you hoping the lawsuit changes, based on the experience that you had? this just absolutely horrible experience that no one should have gone through? >> yeah. so, actually, universities have protection [inaudible] with title ix. and civil rights protections at universities. but what religious universities are doing is they are claiming religious exemption.

so, even though the federal law does have these protections, the religious universities don't have to abide by them. that makes them a free pass to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation. and they can kick you out of college and you can lose all that money that you have invested. and that happens. some of the plaintiffs in our case, that has happened. and what i hope to happen is anyone to be able to go to a university, or guard loss of their sexuality or gender identity and get an education. >> andrew, i know it has been a very difficult road for you. but i'm very grateful and i'm sure a lot of people are very grateful for the good fight that you are undertaking right now. our best to you and everything that you do as you go forward. thank you. >> thank you. >> next, ginni thomas has been invited to testify before the january 6th committee. will she actually show up? we will talk about that.

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moment, here is a new game for you, six degrees of separation from ginni thomas. we are now learning that the influential election denier and, yes, wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas, corresponded with even more people for efforts to overturn the 2020 election that we had previously known about. this week, she wrote to conservative lawyer john eastman who is at the center of the trump team plot to overthrow the election. the chairman of the committee benny thompson says that they sent thomas a letter inviting her to come speak to them. after making that announcement, thomas pulled a conservative outlet that she's looking forward to speak to the committee and, quote, can't wait to clear up misconceptions. two sources from the washington post show that the emails reveal that thomas's efforts to

overturn the election were more expensive than previously known. of course, thomas has spent months in the news for other election related communications, marking ethics questions about her husband's voting record on a number of presidential related disputes. last week, the washington post reported that thomas sent identical emails to 29 arizona lawmakers urging them to set aside joe biden's popular vote victory and choose their own presidential electors. nbc news has not yet verified that report. much more on this with my panel after the break. friends again, billy? i like to keep my enemies close. guys, excuse me. i didn't quite get that. i'm hard of hearing. ♪♪ oh hey, don't forget about the tense music too. would you say tense? i'd say suspenseful. aren't they the same thing? can we move on guys, please?

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night panel. tim, give it to a straight, do you expect ginni thomas to actually speak to the january six committee? trump kept saying that he talked to robert mueller, he never did. ginni thomas, what is the over under on whether she shows up? >> gus, i have to believe that at the end of the day, she is

not going to show up, even though she says he will, because the range of issues that this committee could ask her about go well beyond her communications with john eastman, although, those are crucially important. we know that she was also in touch with trump's chief of staff, mark meadows. the larger and more pressing issue with all of this is that she is married to a supreme court justice who has been ruling on very pertinent matters to the committee's work, including whether or not a work product from the white house, donald trump's work product from the white house, could be turned over to the committee to review. that was a big tug of war between trump's lawyers and the january six committee on that material. it went all the way to the supreme court. the supreme court said it had to be turned over to the committee, with one lone dissent on that, and it was clarence thomas. clarence thomas ruling on central issues in the committee 's work, while his wife is behind the scenes, at a minimum, egging people on to continue to disrupt and undermine the result of the 2020 election. it gets to this larger issue of

conflicts of interest on the 's work, while his wife is behind the scenes, at a minimum, egging people on to continue to disrupt and undermine the result of the 2020 election. it gets to this larger issue of conflicts of interest on the supreme court. john roberts needs to do something about this. this has been percolating along about financial conflicts on the court and whether or not the justices need to disclose more about their own finances and what they own, pretending to cases that came before the court. roberts continually knew that the court guides its own ethics policies, itself regulates, it monitors its own business, and now you have this big ugly car crash of ginni thomas and

clarence thomas sort of jointly blowing through most sensible conflicts of interest issues. it has to be addressed, but i don't think he will it push comes to shove. >> latosha your thoughts on this, i want you to weigh in. what does this mean for our faith in the judiciary elections, for the wife of a supreme court justice working to overturn a presidential election? she is actively out there emailing, working, allegedly conspiring to overturn the election. >> i thought you were generous when you said three degrees of separation. it is actually one degree of separation. [laughs] eastman used to be a law clerk for judge thomas. this is extremely connected. even in the ruling he made that he dissented, the bottom line is that he could have recused himself, but he did not. aside from that, if you look at even what ginni thomas said, in one of the emails of the 21 that she sent, in one, that she sent to meadows, she said that they needed to make a plan and released crack in, because it takes time for the army who is

gathering for his men. well army? is she speaking about the army that were the insurrectionists, the actually took over the capitol and we saw a loss of lives, and they literally committed a crime against the nation. i think it is really important. ironically, i think she may show up because i think her arrogance, either the republicans have gotten away with so much, that they don't have a checkpoint. at the end of the day, what they feel is that they can get away, they have the power, they will just push through, no matter if it is legal or not, if they are above the law. i would not be surprised. i expected to show up. >> mike, as someone who is running to be day lieutenant governor for texas, and obviously believes in the integrity of our elections and

outcome, what does it mean for the public for texans to have faith in the outcome of the elections? how dangerous is it for republicans to be undermining that faith? they run on it only insofar as they win, if they lose, suddenly elections are not valid. >> ben franklin famously said the words, if you can keep it. you all know what i am talking about. this is precisely what he envisioned. i think the conspiracy is in plain sight. you asked earlier, we want ginni thomas to testify or not. sure, let it testify. i've seen all i need to see. so has americans. this conspiracy is operating in plain sight. it is large, built on a lie, and the liars know it. i think everyone needs to know this about my beloved state of texas. the republican party in texas, their platform to this very day, to say that joe biden is not the president, what that means is that if you are a politician in texas, you must lie. you must now lie for the party support. it is absolutely absurd. we know what we must do. i was born in 1961, and i've seen an awful lot of american history. i've seen good times of bad times, i've worried and rejoiced. but i never doubted to our political leaders would betray their oath to the constitution,

and they have. dan patrick has lied through his teeth for the benefit of winning his next election and disabling democracy. now, testimony or not, criminal culpability or not, we know what we must do. if you don't believe that lie, and you cherish democracy, and you see what i see, this is the moment of maximum peril, that they have to get in this fight, with me and everyone else that is fighting against the liars to save our democracy. >> mike, we have about 30 seconds left, do texans share that concern that you have right now? are you trying to convince them? when they ask you about republican efforts to overthrow democracy, do you feel they realize the gravity of the moment? >> some do, all must. i would say that democrats know it's a lie, and they are frustrated and angry. independence at large, laugh at the republicans.

when i see too much is too shrugging of the shoulders, politicians will be politicians. folks must understand that this lie is meant to poison our body politic so that democracy will be disabled. once gone, it cannot be recovered. why leave anything to chance here? people need to get off the sofa and into the fight. i will tell you that momentum is growing because of the hearings, and we are going to make sure that people get in the fight. i do hope that people join me and all the other candidates. >> mike, our best of luck to you, we hope to see you back on the program as lieutenant governor at some point. mike, latosha brown, tim o'brien, they just want your time. i greatly pushed you joining us this evening. >> thank you. >> thank you for making time for us. come back tomorrow night at nine eastern right here on msnbc. congressman raja kristen amorphy will join me for a special hour of a man, looking ahead to the next january 6th hearing. after rudy giuliani made headlines this week for his actions around january six, don't go anywhere, up next,

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