reminds me of what my mother said and what she'd say to senator cornyn this morning. judge yourself by your enemies. >> yeah. >> if you look at the extremes there, look at some of the horrible things that republicans are saying about uvalde right now. the fact that they're getting in the way of a guy who is actually trying to make their lives safer, their schools safer, their churches safer, their country concerts that they go to safer, their shopping malls safer, their grocery stores safer. the fact that supporting public safety becomes a political liability in the political party, well, that just suggests that political party is moving further and further away from mainstream and much, much closer

to being irrelevant in the state of american politics. >> yeah. >> maybe not this year, maybe not next year, but that time is coming. >> i agree. >> this is unsustainable. >> yeah. >> this republican party is unsustainable. >> we're going to explain that more because there's different strains of that that are really coming to light. also, when it comes to helping ukraine, a new report finds some countries are really helping while others are mostly talking. we will discuss the growing pressure on western europe to do more. with us, we have columnist and associate editor for the "washington post" david ignatius joining us this morning. national political reporter for axios, jonathan swan. and white house bureau chief at politico and the host of "way too early," jonathan lemire is with us. and the host of msnbc's "politics nation," president of the national action network,

reverend al sharpton is with us on this monday morning. we're going to begin, joe, with that poll that finds a majority of americans, nearly 6 in 10, believe donald trump should be charged for his role in the january 6th attack on the capitol. the abc news poll was conducted friday and saturday after the three hearings into the attack. it found 58% of those surveyed believe the former president should be charged. that includes 91% of democrats and 19% of republicans. 60% of americans believe the january 6th investigation has been fair. they really have laid it out just point by point, joe. no drama, letting the actual events speak for themselves. >> yeah. you know, we have heard, david ignatius, for so long now, for good reason, we've heard the

truth doesn't matter. we've heard about how conspiracy theories have choked rationality and reason from our political debate, from the public square. well, this morning, we have a poll that shows that, actually, 6 in 10 of our neighbors do seem to care. 6 in 10 of our countrymen and countrywomen do seem to care. that truth actually matters. another 6 in 10 believes this committee has been fair and impartial. only 38%, the never say never trumpers, say it is not fair and impartial. i must say, david, that is something for us to always remember the next time we see a poll that's showing about 40% of the country, a poll of 40% of the country, of, like, the republican base, believe something crazy.

38% are clinging to conspiracy theories. 60% believe donald trump acted wrongly and should be charged with a crime. >> joe, i found the same sense of encouragement in those poll numbers. it's still a fact our political system is broken. you look at the republican/democratic split. 91% of democrats thinking trump should be charged, and only 19% of republicans. what this does tell me is that a careful, systematic, non-showboating attempt to put the facts out before the american people, as the january 6th committee has dope, appears to be having some effect. trump's attempts to rebut that, as in his speech to the faith and freedom coalition, are

really flailing. i was struck, joe, by the way in which this has gotten under trump's skin. it's almost an obsession. he's obviously watching every detail. he's got a nasty word for everybody who has played a role. and i found his phrases by trump standards just whacked the zingers that we're used to. let's hope that the committee can continue forward, assembly this case piece by piece. they've had surprises along the way. i hope they continue to do that. but as you say, there's some evidence here that when the people are presented with carefully drawn facts, they draw sensible conclusion. that's a relief, i have to say, in this country. >> jonathan lemire, you look at the number. only 19% of republicans, let's stop for a second and think

about this. in this world of small margins that we play by every election, whether it was 2016 or 2020, let's just stop for a second and go, oh, wow. only 19% of republicans think he should be charged with a crime and go to jail. that's 1 in 5 republicans. now, i must say, i ran four times and won easily four times. but if 1 in 5 of my base thought i should have been charged with a crime and gone to jail, i mean, i would have gone and practiced law a lot earlier. again, this is starting to resonate. this is starting to sink in. i just -- we love to knock around washington institutions. i'm not saying you, but all of us, we love to talk about how ineffective people in congress

or committees are. this committee has gotten the truth out to the american people, and even at the beginning of the summer, they're listening, jonathan. that's shocking to me. >> yeah, you make a good point about republicans being out of step in many ways with the mainstream. we've seen the polling. we've gone over it on this show, about how they're out of step on abortion, out of step on guns. yes, at first glance, 19% feels like a small number. but 1 out of 5 is not insignificant, particularly in a moment here where the former president is eyeing a political comeback. more and more republicans are seemingly gaining the courage to stand up to him, considering their own 2024 run. whether or not he decides to launch his own campaign to seek the office again. that's clear that these hearings are mattering. now, we've seen some polling. we have talked where some republicans feel like they had the opposite effect. it's driven them more toward their base. it's turned them more towards trump. but, certainly, 19%, 20%, that's

a real number. it's a testament to the committee. we've had three hearings so far. we've got two more this week. they have been really good. in part because they have been so unlike what we are all conditioned to expect from congressional hearings. they are pretty short, each one going about 2 hours or so. they're well-scripted, well-constructed. they move quickly. they had the incredible, never-before-seen video, really powerful testimony. just the facts type of approach, mostly from fellow republicans, those who were even on donald trump's team who are now, of course, saying what he did was wrong. telling the american people that. it's a work of staff, and it is getting it done and getting it done effectively. aiding telling reporters over the weekend they are important things still to share ahead. >> jonathan swan, i'm just

curious, i saw that you had done some reporting on cornyn being booed in texas at a republican convention that, again, just had some crack pot ideas come out. you look, though, how insular that convention was this weekend, as far as the conditions they took, with a small percentage of the population following them. the fact that republicans are on the wrong side of a 90/10 issue on universal background checks. the wrong side of the issue on choice for women. 70/30. then you look at the candidates, the christine o'donnell memorial award is going to go out this year. i don't know, is it going to be the herschel walker in georgia? is it going to be the oz in pennsylvania? is it going to be to jd vance in ohio? all of the crack pot -- this is me talking, not you --

candidates that seem to be running out in as. they seem to be driving over a cliff. you think the whole party, the whole country is going crazy, and then i couldn't see a poll like this that goes, wait a second, pretty healthy majority want to see donald trump arrested for what he did on january 6th. how -- how does that impact the rank and file? what are the mitch mcconnells of washington thinking about that? what do republicans thinking of that when they see how far off the reservation these primary voters are going? >> well, a few thing. i sent this poll around to some sources, both in the democratic party and the republican party, and i think we do need to be cautious about overinterpreting it. it is 545 adults. i do want to see a lot more polling. it is adults, not likely voters. we shouldn't necessarily, at this point, say, oh, 60% of the public thinks this.

we need to see more polling. as for the texas gop, you're absolutely right, it is an unrepresented minority. but cornyn has problems inside his own conference, as i reported. there is a rebellion inside the senate gop among the conservatives against john cornyn for cooperating with democrats and negotiating over guns. there have been pretty heated meetings behind the scenes that mitch mcconnell presided over and cornyn has at the lunches. you have members like ted cruz, tom cotton, mike crapo, john kennedy, there's a whole bunch of them who are really agitating against what cornyn is doing. so it's not just a problem he has in the texas gop. it is a problem he has inside his own conference in washington, in the senate. you can see he's starting to get nervous about it. there was a story that he, you know, said, i'm done talking. we went home. this actually may affect what

ends up happening in terms of his ability, his negotiating space, his ability to cut a deal with the democrats. >> you know, we always hear, jonathan, that mitch mcconnell, whatever he does, when people criticize him, you'll hear someone say, well, he is only following where his conference is. mitch has been supportive of the talks and seems to be supportive of the outlines of this. does this suggest that even if the majority of the conference isn't with john cornyn, the others negotiating, at least mitch mcconnell understands it might be good for the republican party to be on, oh, i don't know, the side of 80% of americans instead of 13% or 14% of americans? >> yeah, that's why he asked john cornyn to lead these negotiations, knowing full well, having read the polls, that this is -- that he perceives anyway that this is an issue that

republicans need to come to some agreement on. it would be some level of liability, potentially, if they don't. again, the original way this was presented to the republican conference was, we're going to come to some agreement that will get the vast majority of the conference. there are a lot of members who were concerned it would be a deal where they'd just get ten republicans and split the conference apart. that's where it is heading. there's a lot -- i can't emphasize this enough, there is a lot of anger inside the republican senate conference at john cornyn about these negotiations. we're seeing the conference really tear apart over this issue. >> mika, it's really crazy, if there is a lot of anger at this negotiation. you look how weak these measures are. the fact they're not even going really after a national red flag law. the fact they're not even doing universal background checks. the fact that, again, they're

afraid -- get this, this is where the republican party is in 2022 on guns. they're so beholden to the nra, they're so beholden to gun manufacturers, they're so beholden to the most intense portion of their base, they're afraid to be on the side of the 90%. >> well -- >> that is extremism defined. >> yeah. and the gun lobby and guns itself as sort of a trumpist quality to it, it's going to come back and bite you. these mass shootings are not going to stop. do you want to deal with it now? do you want to continue to deal with it? by the way, we're going to need a lot more than what is being discussed. again, we could have the conversation. everybody knows we're the only country with this problem, and there is a reason why. yes, mental health is a problem, too, but we're the only country with this problem. and this will come back to get you, republicans.

there is a blindness to the republican party that takes away not only the fact that you consider it's filled with intelligent beings, it's not, but it's not even a party that wants to be a part of this country anymore, that wants to look at the constitution, that wants to look at the safety of the people who live in it, that wants to stand up for law and order, that wants to stand up for conservatism. it's none of that. by the way, on jan 6th, retired federal judge, litteg, quote, donald trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present danger to american democracy. the quote, they'd attempt to overturn the 2024 election in the same way they attempted to overturn the 2020 election. well, as looking to prove judge

luttig correct, trump addressed a crowd in nashville, tennessee, this is not from a year ago, where he continued to parrot many of his lies regarding the events of january 6th, including that the rioters were not violent. >> if it were an insurrection that took place at the capitol, you would have known it very soon. they would have -- these were strong people. these were great patriots. there were no guns. i heard they didn't have one gun. nobody was killed, except for a wonderful young woman named ashli babbitt, who was viciously shot and, in my opinion, for absolutely no reason. >> that was friday. this past friday. he also called what happened, joe, that day a, quote, simple protest that got out of hand. he unleashed more criticism on

former vice president mike pence, whose refusal to overturn the 2020 election results has become a key focus of the january 6th committee. >> mike, and i say it sadly because i like him, but mike did not have the courage to act. mike was afraid of whatever he was afraid of. but as you heard year and a half ago, mike pence had absolutely no choice but to be a human conveyer belt. he was a human conveyer belt, even if the votes were fraudulent. they said he had to send the votes, couldn't do anything. i said to mike, "if you do this, you could be thomas jefferson." [ laughter ] after it all went down, i looked at him one day and said, "mike, hate to say this, but you're no thomas jefferson." >> trump also said if he decides to run again for president and is re-elected, he would, quote,

seriously look at pardons for the january 6th defendants. my god, joe. i mean, this, to me, is -- i mean, we've talked about this before, but the fact that he continues now, i just wonder, i mean, if this ends up in the legal realm, what would happen. >> well -- >> he might get charged. >> let's talk about, though, the judge was exactly right. a clear and present danger to the constitution of the united states. donald trump is a clear and present danger. he was in 2020. judge luttig is right, one of the most revered legal minds over the past generation is right. he remains a clear and present danger. he somehow overlooked the fact that this so-called simple protest led to police officers just having the hell beat out of them. one going home and dying of a

stroke the next day. others actually committing suicide because of what they saw that day. he somehow forgot that his own party members, his own allies were calling, screaming, begging him to call off the mob. that people were going to get hurt. that people were going to die. and the contempt, this is what -- you know, the people clapping out there, i'd love to know what ralph reed thinks of the people clapping out there when donald trump just said that mike pence could have just snapped his fingers and completely upended the constitution. what donald trump showed in that meeting place was absolute contempt for constitution. absolute contempt for what conservatives used to talk about

as far as law and order. absolute contempt for our men and women in blue. many of them just beaten senseless. >> this is not a simple protest. >> this is not a simple protest. that got a little out of control. what we're looking at here, what we're looking at with donald trump, and we have to say it, martin luther king said the day we see the truth and we cease to speak it is the day we begin to die. in this case, die as a country. what we're seeing is a rise of fascism in america. quite clearly the rise of fascism in the form of donald trump. and the fact that he used violence and he pushed his followers to use violence, and many of them now in jail while he flies back and forth on his private jet to mar-a-lago, suggests that he wants it to happen again.

rev, that's what we heard. that's what we heard. that regardless of everything that happened before, the judge is right, donald trump is still a clear and present danger to the united states of america and the constitution. rev? >> i think, though, a couple things here, joe. one is you must look at the fact that we can't just keep letting donald trump say things and not challenge to the american public what he is saying is either complete nonsense or he is rewriting history. for example, you just played the clip that he said that the vice president at the time, pence, could have been thomas jefferson. what does that mean? what is he saying thomas jefferson was? i mean, really, what does that mean? it's either him being totally ignorant of who we think thomas

jefferson was in history in terms of the founding of the country and in terms of setting up the constitution, or he's just throwing names, which shows that he really looks down on the intelligence of his own crowd. secondly, and i think an important point we should not miss, is the democrats need to read very carefully where the country is going. because this poll, whether or not we think there needs to be other polling or not, let's look at this poll. in 6 out of 10 americans are saying he needs to be charge, does that now say to the democrats, if you don't charge him, you better have a good explanation as to why not? in other words, it could backfire on you. obviously, most democrats feel that there ought to be some referral to the justice department. so in many ways, just like republicans need to look at the fact that they are out of step with where the majority of

americans are according to this poll, democrats need to look at the fact that people are expecting you to protect this democracy and protect the law. if you don't, you need to have a good explanation why. so, yes, the republicans are on the cliff, but the democrats also don't flirt with me if you're not going to take me to the prom. >> david, i'm curious what your thoughts are on the president's speech. the fact he remains unrerepentant. they thought it was an insurrection. they thought they were overturning a popular vote, the will of the people. it was an insurrection. and in the minds of the people donald trump was sending them there, it risked the life of the

vice president of the united states. he was 40 feet, most likely, away from being killed. while he was in that much danger, donald trump threw more fire, more gasoline on the fire with a tweet, after he knew trump and his family was fleeing from the mob. you have nancy pelosi, whose life was endangered. people going around her offices, going around the capitol looking for nancy pelosi. again, i just want to say, you have donald trump's closest allies getting on the phone, screaming and yelling and begging for him on january the 6th to call off his mob. when kevin mccarthy said, "call them off," he said, "oh, it's antifa." that's when mccarthy screamed and yell and swore at him and said, "who do you think i am? how stupid do you think i am? these are your people. call them off." of course, we know donald trump refused to call them off and

was, in fact, gleeful that they were beating the hell out of cops, gleeful they were beating the hell out of anyone who got in their way. he's unrepentant and looking to run again. i know this is -- i don't know if you'd be comfortable answering this or not, but i talked about the rise of fascism in the united states. i'm just curious, how much of a danger? do you agree with the judge that donald trump and his supporters would present a clear and present danger to democracy if he won in 2024? >> joe, i do think that he is dangerous to our democracy. i'm not sure i'd live trump the credit for having a systematic ideology like fascism or anything else. it's almost a grab bag of resentment, personal bitterness. the guy is a sore loser.

that's what comes across when you look at these clips. he can't get over it. he can't get over the fact that he lost. and to see him attack, one by one, people who had been prominent and, in most cases, very loyal conservative supporters, to see him attack mike pence, mike pence, the vice president who did pretty much whatever donald trump told him to do, is now reduced to being called a human conveyer belt and weak because he wouldn't throw our election rules overboard to give this man a victory he hadn't earned. bill barr, one of the most supportive attorney generals a president has had in modern times, similarly attacked as weak because, in the end, he stood up for the rule of law and wouldn't go along with what trump was trying to do. in fact, told him, "your ideas about stolen election votes are just wrong. they don't make any sense."

so bill barr is now consigned to the weak. mitch mcconnell, who has been trump's, basically, steadfast political ally in the senate, is now described as a broken down old pro. i should have ran a candidate against him in the primary, the guy is no good. at some point, even these pro-trump audiences have to listen to this and begin to scratch their heads. it's obvious that trump is sitting there brooding, watching television. joe, he watched every minute of these hearings, you can tell. he said luttig, who is this guy? offended there might be somebody who would be so articulate in criticizing him. so your fundamental point, that the republicans are more and more out of step with where the country is, is right. it's not just right on january 6th. it's right on the issue of gun violence. it's right on the issue of abortion rights. the republicans are steering

themselves into deeper and deeper water, but it is going to take a republican of some prominence to stand up and run against these ideas. passionately and effectively. otherwise, trump still seems, somehow, to be able to intimidate people with arguments that are increaingly desperate, in my view. but it is going to take somebody of courage and intellectual clarity to stand up and say, that's not us. that's not the republican party. that's not our country. >> yeah. you know, jonathan swan, we've always had debates on abortion. we've always had debates on guns. how much we regulate guns. what gun safety laws are passed. we've always had a series of debates. here, though, you have somebody that's running a political operation and has people following him that really

embraces ethnonationalism. he is an ethnonationalist. tells black members of congress to go back home, to go back where you came from. you look at and you see, there's also, as you see in other -- in the past with other fascists, this rebirth myth. we need to go back to how things were in the good old days. these elites, these liberals, these college professors, these newspaper editors, these media types, they've separated us from our heritage, from our past. you can name one fascist after another that does that, that has done that in the past. then, of course, you have the use of violence. the one thing that we never really ticked off through the years that we have now. again, the reason i'm bringing this up is that donald trump is showing that january 6th wasn't

just a little protest that got out of hand. it is something that he was pushing for and has absolutely no regrets and would do it again if need be. i mean, this guy, is he not a clear and present danger to american democracy, as judge luttig said? >> well, first, i want to respond to something david ignatius said, which is about there needs to be republicans of courage to stand up against him. there are those republicans. they're just going to get destroyed in a republican primary. they have no support among republican voters. liz cheney is one of those republicans. larry hogan is one of those republicans. adam kinzinger. there is enough of them, mitt romney. the problem is, and i talk to a lot of pollsters and republican strategists and people actually working on this at the campaign level, is the view within the party is the only way to beat donald trump in a primary is from the right. it's from the right. it's not to say all these things

are wrong. that has no purchase with the republican base. i do think we need to anchor ourselves in that reality. another reality that democrats need to anchor themselves in is despite all of the things you just said, hispanics and african-americans are actually supporting donald trump in increasing numbers. the republican party is doing much better with hispanics than they have been. it's now breaking down on class grounds, not on race grounds. i had a conversation, an interesting conversation last year, with senator bernie sanders. he's very concerned about this. actually, what's happening, what we're seeing now is increasing numbers of working class hispanics and working class african-americans, particularly men, supporting the republican party. for whatever reason, what democrats are saying isn't actually getting through to voters. we'll see what happens in the midterms. i know everyone, you know, is getting on this poll, but i do

think that what we're seeing across the country is not actually reflective of what, you know, this conversation is about. >> you know -- >> john -- >> you talk about those numbers. this is something that david shore, who worked for barack obama, has been talking about since the election. you have progressives that have been mocking and ridiculing him because he's been saying, hey, this is what shore said about himself, we white progressives have pulled the party to a position -- and, rev, i need to go to you on this -- where we're too progressive, not only for working class whites, we're becoming too progressive for working class hispanics. we're becoming too progressive for working class black voters. we're becoming too progressive for our very base. i always talk about eric adams, rev, but he got elected in a democratic primary in new york

city in brooklyn and the bronx and queens for a reason. for some reason, i don't get it, you call them latte liberals and you have for a very long time, but for some reason, it seems a lot of people running the democratic party out of washington, d.c., just can't get this through their heads. they keep losing elections along the texas border where hispanics are breaking democratic. i'm sorry, breaking republican. >> yeah. >> at what point does your defining yourself as progressive become regressive when you are, in effect, setting the stage for people that are right wing or all of the issues we may believe in are getting elected? but you're such an ideologue, you're a latte liberal, my way or no way, that you would rather lose the war to win a little ego battle.

i think that that is what is being reflected by some black men, some latinos that are saying, wait a minute, you're going too far. we are afraid of, yes, police misconduct and brutality, but we have to deal with gun violence and we have to deal with crime in our communities that is killing our families. if you're too progressive to see that, then you're not progress for me. and i think that that is what is coming to bite the party. just like you rightfully raise that when are we going to see some people with enough courage on the right to stand up to these extremists that donald trump has been able to project. you've got to have courage on the left to say, wait a minute, when we're fighting for justice for george floyd, we're not saying end policing. we're saying better policing. and you don't speak for us, you don't even speak to us. you're too busy ordering your next latte and having your

intellectual conversations. >> love rev. >> jonathan swan -- >> and a soy latte at that. my god, the horrors. >> jonathan swan, thank you very much for your reporting. we'll see you once again soon. still ahead on "morning joe," this is a big story. >> hey, jonathan? >> okay. >> i want you to know, your objections have been dually noted to that poll. it is just one poll. it is just one snapshot. you are -- no, i think -- >> i just want to say, joe, like the other thing is, i just want to say, you know, with the whole legal conversation, i just remember the mueller days when every conversation, the walls are closing in. i want people to think, maybe the walls are exactly where they always were. you know, we saw this with manhattan d.a. there's a lot of -- >> totally agree. >> -- people getting excited about a lot of this stuff and it doesn't actually come to bear. >> listen, we spent at least 2,

2 1/2 years hearing every day that donald trump was about to go to jail. >> exactly. >> i made it very clear last week on this show that the old adage, no man is above the law no longer applies. it certainly doesn't apply to donald trump. regardless of what he's done here, i fully suspect him to walk because he just does. >> it's scary, yeah. >> he always gets away with it. he is, if anybody here saw "l.a. confidential," he is rolo. he's the guy that always gets away. i can take heart, though, on one monday morning, that at least in one poll, for one brief, shining moment, that 60% of americans think it is kind of a bad thing for a president to run an insurrection. jonathan swan, thank you so much. >> thank you, jonathan. >> for throwing cold water on my head. have a good week. >> it must be done.

by the way, coming up, joe, this is a story that's impacting anybody who finally wants to take a vacation or go anywhere. >> don't do it. >> get out of covid times and, you know, go see family. thousands of additional flights are scrubbed across the country just as the summer travel season heats up. we're going to tell you what's causing the mess at the airports and whether there is any relief any time soon. the issue is labor. >> it is terrible out there. >> yes. we'll have more on the moment in texas when the crowd turned on republican senator john torre cornyn, a lead negotiator for the gun safety bill. and the january 6th panel wants testimony from two high-profile people. we'll tell you who they are. some countries say they support ukraine, but they're not backing it up with actual aid. a new study finds a small european country has done more

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but that was an epic fail. with xfi we can stream, share, swipe, like... impress your mom with super-sonic wifi. it's unbeatable internet for a more unbeatable gru. i mean, you. polling shows there is strength behind the proposals at this point. background checks for guns which, by and large, most of them are background checked before you do a purchase. 88%, though, moving the legal age for an assault rifle purchase at 82%. flagging for people who are a danger to themselves or others, the red flag laws, 81%. banning assault weapons, 63%. there is momentum, at least among the public atmosphere, for doing this. are you out of step with your constituents? >> okay. first of all, what's important is that we look out for the rights of constituents. constituents are asked poll questions. they're not asked questions about specific language within

legislative text. it's the job of the lawmaker to look out for the interest and the rights of the law-abiding citizens they represent. >> well, there's -- >> what about safety? >> -- absolutely nothing in any of the legislation that would even remotely touch any second amendment rights, as interpreted by the supreme court, and, you know, over the past 220, 230 years. i'm not exactly sure. again, they always hide behind the second amendment when, in fact, if you look at the second amendment and look how it's been interpreted by this conservative court, there's nothing in there that republican senator mike lee of utah has anything to worry about. >> yeah. >> the only thing he has to worry about when answering why he is not supporting a gun reform bill that would contain measures that an overwhelming number of americans support, mika, is to try to explain why

he has such contempt for the overwhelming majority of americans, and also contempt for the intelligence of people in his own state. what he is saying is just not -- i get so sick and tired of people who lie about what the second amendment does not say and what it does say. that's all so many republicans seem to know how to do. >> every time i hear them saying things like this, i just think, do you not think there is going to be a mass shooting in utah? look at the numbers. i mean, they speak for themselves. the story speaks for itself. the story is going to come to a town near you. i'm not saying it in a threatening or leering way. i'm saying it because i'm frightened for this country. can't put the toothpaste back in the tube with assault weapons. >> if people want to represent their district, if they want to protect their people, they need to pass public safety laws that would do that.

>> care about it. >> if bridges felt falling down -- >> right. >> -- and people kept getting killed all over america, there would be such an outcry. people go, well, that's -- there's no -- the bridges aren't in the constitution. well, guess what? what most republicans are about guns, it's not in the constitution either. the second amendment is very clear. heller is very clear. look across the nation, connecticut has far more aggressive safety laws than what congress is trying to pass. the supreme court has refused to overturn any of those laws. >> yeah. meanwhile, here's the moment senator john cornyn of texas, the top republican involved in the bipartisan gun legislation negotiations, he was booed on friday as he spoke at the texas republican convention. >> let's take our country back starting with congress in

november. thank you. god bless you. may god continue to bless our great state of texas. [ crowd booing ] >> during cornyn's speech, some audience members were booing and chanting, quote, no red flag, an apparent reference to the state laws that allow guns to be confiscated from people considered to be a danger to themselves or society. are you serious? amid the backlash, cornyn did insist there were certain lines he wouldn't cross, telling the crowd, quote, i will not, under any circumstance, support new restrictions for law-abiding gun owners. that will always be my red line. and despite what some of you may have heard, the framework that we are working on is consistent with that red line. after he was booed, cornyn was

also heard saying, quote, i never give in to mobs, and i'm not starting today. >> good for him. jonathan lemire, it is hard to believe that people in the crowd out there were booing red flag laws. they want 18-year-olds who are crazy, who are insane -- >> troubled. >> -- to be able to walk in -- who are troubled, they want people who have been flagged as dangerous to be able to go in and buy weapons of war on their 18th birthday and go shoot up schools. i mean, how could they be against basic public safety laws? again, i want to say, basic public safety laws that are, one, constitutional, two, consistent with the second amendment, three, consistent with heller, and, four, would save lives. >> five, enjoy the support of the vast majority of americans.

john cornyn, though, certainly a through and through republican, looks like a moderate compared to a lot of the texas state gop right now. that gathering over the weekend adopted a measure that referred to joe biden as the acting president, not recognizing he's the legitimate victor. we heard the boos for cornyn, who is mitch mcconnell's lead negotiator on this gun deal. mcconnell himself signalled he would support it. as jonathan swan hinted at earlier, there is some growing concern about the future of this legislation. there's a real uprising among the conservatives in the republican party, in that caucus, about any sort of measure to be passed in the wake of the tragedies in uvalde and buffalo. the snag was hit last week. the actual legislation has not been drafted yet. they're still working on that. senator murphy of connecticut, the leading democrat on the committee, he says that he still does believe this will get done.

there is a sense, though, that it might slip again, that it might not be finished this week, which had been the goal before the senate disappears for a two-week july 4th recess. there was concern from momentum since the beginning. the less chance of getting it finished. this is an incremental step, progress for sure, but perhaps not a lot. there's a real crunch here to try to get at least firm commitments done, even if not be week's end. >> mika, what a run for republicans. they're on the wrong side of 90/10 issues when it comes to gun safety and public safety. they're on the wrong side of choice issues. 70/30 when it comes to what is about to come down in the supreme court. they're putting people like dr. oz, jd vance, herschel walker, winning the nominations.

making todd aiken and christine mcdonald look like benjamin franklin and alexander hamilton. this is a rough time for republicans if you actually want to win senate elections coming up in the fall. again, the house is the house. it is gerrymandered. you can say as manythings as you want and still probably be elected. joining us now, former prosecutor, district attorney of westchester county, mimi roka back on the show. great to have you. one of the provisions is the boyfriend loophole. can you explain what that is? >> hi, great to be back with you, mika. so this is actually -- i think if people really understand this, they'll be even more shocked, to what you were talking about, that this is the

thing that some republican senators are going to use to hold sensible gun legislation. boyfriend loophole, under federal law, people convicted of domestic violence offenses cannot buy or own guns. if they are an intimate partner, defined under federal law, which has a certain definition, or married to or the father of a child with the person who they committed the offense against. the boyfriend loophole says that if you're not in one of those categories, but you're still convicted of a domestic violence offense, you can own a gun. so the group of people that they are holding up sensible gun legislation for, however you define it, you know, husband, boyfriend, whatever it is, we are talking about people who have domestic violence convictions. so to your point earlier about hiding behind the second amendment, the second amendment doesn't protect people who have been convicted of or have

current, permanent orders of protest against them. that is literally hiding behind the second amendment. i don't understand for the life of me why anyone would hold up legislation that can save the lives of innocent people, innocent children, to protect domestic violence abusers. that's what we're talking about. people throw it around, but that is what it comes down to. there are certain senators that are looking to protect, for some reason, domestic violence abusers over the lives of innocent people. >> isn't that the real problem, what you just raised, and that is that the messaging is not being strongly made the issue oar strongly enough being advocated, because we're really debating people that have really come with something that the

average american wouldn't tolerate if they understood what was at stake. i'm hearing people putting the pressure ones and cornyn from the right, but i don't see many of us on the other side of this, whether we're centrists or progressive, saying, wait a minute, we're talking about exactly what you're talking about as district attorney, we're talking about saving lives. they're talking about these things that are not law at all. >> that's right, rev. i completely agree with you. we really, i think, have to start pointing it out, that it is a small group of politicians who are pandering to extremist views. when it comes to gun safety, that's the issue. we cannot have guns in the hands of people who we know either have been convicted of crimes, like domestic violence, or, and this is where the red flag laws come in, or who are showing signs in a court temporarily

adjudicates that they may be a danger to themselves or to others. most mass shootings, there are warning signs. it is not a first time that someone shows signs of significant trouble when they go and shoot up a school or a grocery store. so the red flag laws are such an important tool, which is why we need -- we have them at the state level. new york, as you know, has some of the strongest gun laws in the country. that's great. they work when we put them to work effectively. we need it at the national level because, guess what, guns aren't manufactured in new york state. they're manufactured in other states with weaker gun laws. the other thing i'll say, i hear about this issue from my constituents across westchester county every day. i also hear about it from law enforcement. they want less guns on the street. they want sensible gun safety legislation. so it isn't just -- it is not a party issue. it is a safety issue.

>> for sure. we saw that in uvalde, straight out. thank you very much for being on the show. come back. by the way, also at that texas gop convention where senator cornyn was booed, republican congressman dan crenshaw and his staff were confronted by far-right protesters. >> hey, look, eye-patch mccain right here. you're a rhino. you're a globalist. you're a globalist rhino! >> you heard them call -- i just can't. >> this is -- >> this is a navy s.e.a.l. >> he lost his eye while fighting in afghanistan. >> you know, the thing is, what we have, mika, is we have a political movement that heaps utter contempt against anybody

that opposes their freakish world view of where washington should go, where america should go. here, you have, in this case, you have a navy s.e.a.l., and they're mocking him because he wears an eye patch. you have the military being attacked by these group of people. our leaders of the military being attacked, just like they were attacked in the 1960s from the -- by the far left. but you have our military leaders being attacked. you have conspiracy theory that is the military is going to use helicopters against the american people, that they used in afghanistan. you have attacks, of course, against police officers on

capitol hill. people that were beat up, some who died, and they're mocked as actors. you have the fbi continually attacked because the fbi dared to investigate donald trump. david ignatius, it is really jarring to see an american hero that has sacrificed so much for his country being attacked like this and yelled at because of a war injury. >> doubly so, joe, because it was the "eye-patch mccain" phrase, referring first to his eye watch, a sign of heroism and service, and, second, the mccain part likened him to another war hero, senator john mccain who suffered terribly in a north vietnamese prison camp.

somehow got on the wrong side of donald trump because he wouldn't agree with him on everything. now, these people are subjects of derision for some on the right. what i liked was the way in which dan crenshaw dismissed this heckler who was shouting at him and the little bit we caught on television and basically called him a guy who couldn't get any girlfriends or something like that. it was just a total putdown. and it just -- it just goes to show, you could get all spun up about it if you're dan crenshaw, but he didn't. he just said this guy is a loser. i'm not going to take him seriously. you know, to the larger argument, discussion we've been having this morning, joe and mika, these things are not going to change until republicans pay a price for ideas that are so far out of step with what the voters want. as long as they can get away with it politically, because of

how congressional districts are stacked, how the base and their party overwhelms sensible people in the middle of their party, it'll continue. but politics runs like most things, on fear. the minute people are afraid that these ideas, out of step with what the polls show, are going to get them defeated, people will begin to change. >> yeah, some thoughts on how this connects with trumpism and even january 6th as a whole after a quick break. we'll be right back. break. we'll be right back. ot ♪ unlimited cashback match... only from discover.

every year we try to exercise more, to be more social, to just relax. and eating healthy every single meal? if only it was this easy for us. insurrection that took place at the capitol, you would have known it very soon. these were strong people. these were great patriots. it was a simple protest. it got out of hand. if i become president someday,

if i decide to do it, i will be looking at them very, very seriously for pardons. very, very seriously. so that's an unrepentant donald trump speaking friday just as a poll was being conducted that now finds a majority of americans believe he should be charged for his role in the attack at the capitol january 6th. the former president also attacked witnessed who testified in the house select committee hearings. he likes to watch tv. if he is already triggered, how will he react tomorrow when we hear testimony from the georgia official who tried to pressure into helping him find just enough votes to win? welcome back to "morning joe." it is monday, june 20th. david ignatius, jonathan lemire, and reverend al sharpton are still with us. we have the editor of the "financial times," ed luce. the columnist at the "washington post," max boot. senior fellow at the council on

foreign relations. joe, before the break, we showed these idiots running after crenshaw, congressman crenshaw, calling him eye-patch mccain. it is so where we are right now, with what's happening to the republican party. people watch some joker on television and see him saying it, no context, no understanding of what it means. if they did think about what it means, they'd go, huh, this doesn't stand for what we believe in. we believe in law and order. we believe in navy s.e.a.l.s. we believe for those who suffer and take injuries for this country to protect. we'd never be cruel to someone injured in the line of duty. just like a cult, a member of a cult, like a robot, they just start repeating what some joker said because that joker is somehow connected to trump and they follow trump.

it's always blind, cult-like worship. >> well, you know, the crazy thing is, you can't just say it is just one member of the cult. >> no. >> because everybody else is quiet around there. you see, because you look at it and you can say to yourself, well, the fact that comparing a war hero who lost his eye because of an ied while fighting for the united states military overseas, the fact that comparing him to another war hero, who spent years having the hell beat out of him in vietnam, and beaten so badly, when he left, he couldn't raise his arms over his shoulders and suffered every day of his life for representing our country in uniform. the fact that that is now

perceived as an insult by donald trump's wing of this ultranationalist party tells you all that you have to know about the sickness of this party. >> yeah. that's how quick they are to jump in. >> ed luce, make no mistake of it, donald trump was mocking john mccain a long time ago. saying he wasn't a hero. now, you have people mocking dan crenshaw for losing an eye while serving in battle from an ied. i can tell you, people are like, that's one person. no, this is what the republican party has become. i can tell you, when i was a republican, if that had happened at one of our conventions and somebody was shouting down a war hero, that person would be firmly escorted out the front door and told to never come back again. but extremism has become,

unfortunately, the rule and not the exception in this ethnonationalist, and i'll say it just for myself, this fascist party. >> yeah, and that makes it more than a cult. it is a cult. you're right. but it is an authoritarian movement. you know, we're talking about january the 6th, something that happened lastdeniers, people wh refuse to admit what happened in recent memory. if trump can get the vast majority of republicans to believe that what we saw happening and what we know happening and what people who worked for him testify did happen, he can get them to deny plenty of other thing. today is juneteenth. one of the greatest days in american history. the day when america started to redeem the promise of what it is to former slaves. what if trump turned around and said slavery is a myth?

i'm not saying he is, but there is no reason why, if he can deny january 6th and get tens of millions of people to believe that what they saw in front of them was not what they saw in front of them, well, what's the limit? how much further can you go? it's much, much more pernicious, dark, and malevolent than just a cult. it is an authoritarian movement. >> dan crenshaw is getting attacked why? he refused to go along with the crazy conspiracy theory, suggesting that the election was stolen by joe biden. ed, speaking of our concerns about this violent strand in the republican party, you spoke with hillary clinton who is quite concerned about where we are as a country now. what'd she tell you? what'd you learn? >> yeah. this is something called lunch with the ft. it's not a normal interrogaive

interview. you have a conversation over lunch. she was deeply sort of preoccupied with american democracy being on the precipice, as she puts it. this occurred just before the january 6th hearings took place. but she was talking about both the election subversion that is being set up for 2024, the fact that we shouldn't be too backward looking. this wasn't just one incident. this is part of a much bigger panorama of election subversion. and also the, what she called the handmaid's tale dimension to what this supreme court is doing. what roe v. wade, the triggered laws coming into effect when roe v. wade is overturned, and how margaret atwood, the author of the "handmaid's tale," you know, about this christian theocracy,

was a profit of our time. i mean, it wasn't the most cheerful conversation i've had, but it was very substantive. >> important. in fact, per quote is your headline to the piece, which is, "we are standing at the precipice of losing our democracy." max boot, you write in your latest opinion piece for the "washington post," i thought the january 6th committee wouldn't matter. i was wrong. you write, in part, the committee's hearings are exceeding expectations because it is not behaving like a typical congressional committee. there is no grandstanding and no preening. there are no squabbles. there's only the relentless march of evidence, all of it deeply incriminaing to a certain former president who keeps insisting that he was robbed of his rightful election victory. there have been no anti-trump, much less anti-republican rants.

the committee members are focused with forensic, factual intensity for trump's responsibility of the events january 6th. they are making a case beyond any reasonable doubt in the court of public opinion, even if it remains to be seen whether there is sufficient evidence to indict trump in an actual court of law. the committee's most potent weapon is the words of trump's own aides. trump's own aides have made an open and shut case that he is not fit to run mar-a-lago, much less the united states of america. i think that's what struck us, as well, max, is that we saw ivanka, we saw jared, we saw all the folks who never said a word, you know, while serving in the white house, but under oath, in these hearings, in the deposition, you got the real

story. >> exactly right, mika. i think it is devastating to hear this coming not from folks on msnbc but coming from folks like ivanka trump or bill barr or bill stepien or, last week, i thought judge michael luttig was powerful in talking about the clear and present danger posed to our democracy by president trump, and not just in '20 and '21, but in '24 when he'll try the attack on our democracy again. this is judge luttig, one of the most conservative and respected judges in the country. he is not a pointed-headed liberal. this is an alarm that conservatives, including liz cheney and adam kinzinger, this is an alarm they all have about what trump is doing. it is shocking and appalling, that 60% of the republican party is going along with the big lie. but any of those republicans who

are echoing trump's lies and attacks on democracy, they are not paying attention to the hearings. they are not paying attention to what's going on. i think anybody who is watching the hearings has to conclude that what happened on january 6th was not an apparition. it was an attempt to overthrow our democracy by trump and his aides. that's what the hearings are establishing. >> david ignatius, we've gotten your take already on the abc poll that shows 6 in 10 americans want donald trump -- believe donald trump should have charges pressed against him. let's move to something i saw this weekend reading a "wall street journal" op-ed -- actually, it was their editorial that i found really jarring. we'll get to that in a second. first, the nato secretary

general saying the war on ukraine, john stoltenberg said, the west should support ukraine in a lengthy fight. he said the cost of the war is high, but the price of letting moscow win is even greater. this as ukraine awaits a crucial decision this week on whether it'll be granted candidate status in its bid to join the eu. all i can say is, it better. as the war on ukraine enters its fourth month, we're learning more about what countries are really helping the war-torn countries and what countries are just talk. get this, the united states remains, by far, the biggest overall contributor with over $48 billion given in the cause, according to the "wall street journal" per a study by a german research institute. the eu has sent only $28 billion. i want you to look. i want you to look at those

numbers. the report finds, quote, while you're looking at the numbers, it is remarkable that the u.s. alone has committed considerably more than all eu countries combined, in whose immediate neighborhood the war is raging. all right. again, put up these numbers again. put up the two numbers, the united states and the eu. david ignatius, you look at these numbers. you look at the fact, also, that something else that the study showed is latvia is giving more money than germany, than france. >> poland is doing well. >> italy. you basically have the united states and poland one and two. latvia with a population of 1.8 million and a gdp comparable to vermont is giving more than germany, france, and italy. david, what the hell are we supposed to think about this? it seems germany and france are

doing a whole lot of talking and it's the united states at the end of the day that's writing the check, sending the weapons. >> so i wish the french and germans were putting in more money, but compared to where we were two, three weeks ago when i thought there was a real movement by france, in particular, away from a consensus to support ukraine, i think we're in better shape now. macron has visited ukraine. he's seen it with his own eyes. he stood next to president zelenskyy. same thing with the german chancellor and the italian prime minister. they made new commitments to support ukraine militarily. i think the west as a whole has come together around the idea, this war is not going to be over soon. we have to be tough for the long run. we have to stand by ukraine. the movement toward making

ukraine european, a part of the european union, isn't fast enough. but it's there. what i would say, joe, is that the fundamental war aims of vladimir putin, to split europe and to prevent ukraine from ever becoming a european country, are visibly failing this week. for all of the shortcomings that you could cite in the french or german delivery of weapons, the fundamental war aims of vladimir putin are failing. he's not to understand that. the more than response is not to panic. there was a little bit of that a couple weeks ago. it's to say, we're going to hunker down for a long war. we're going to send them more weapons. we're going to prevent a russian breakout in these areas where they've had some success. so i take a little bit less worried view than you do right now, joe. >> well, i'm just -- i want to know why the europeans aren't

carrying their weight, ed luce. the united states gdp is over $20 trillion a year. the eu's gdp is over $20 trillion a year. i'm not exactly sure why, when this war is in their neighborhood, when it is in germany, when it is close to germany, when it is closer to france, why the united states is paying almost double of what's going on there. you know, zelenskyy this past week said, you know, two countries have really stepped up for us. the united states and poland. of course, you could say the same of latvia. again, let's underline this fact, ed. latvia, with a gdp of about the size of vermont, has contributed more than france, contributed more than germany, contributed more than italy, the question is, when are the germans going to step up? when are the french going to step up? because by this point, macron is going on and on, yammering about

off-ramps,trying to be -- i guess he thinks he is de gaulle between the west and the east during the covid war. it is getting tiresome. ukrainians need their support. when are they going to get it? >> by the way, it is not just latvia. estonia, which is basically the population of hamburg, is giving more than germany, more than france, more than italy. norway, a small country. so it's a number of countries in the baltics, in the nordics, one or two in central europe, that are doing well. britain has given quite a lot, as well. i think that david is right to emphasize that the trip last week to kyiv by the sort of big eu three leaders, olaf scholz, emmanuel macron, and draghi, the italian prime minister, can help in knorr rowing the gap between what they committed. the germans committed a lot,

they just haven't delivered. to narrow that gap and to stand shoulder to shoulder with zelenskyy in saying, look, ukraine does belong in the european union. we will look favorably upon your application. and, therefore, the end state of whatever happens with the ukraine war is that ukraine is part of the west. irredeemably part of the west. that's a very important signal to send. but you are absolutely right, you know, we are seeing 200, 300 ukrainians die a day. in luhansk and the donbas. this is misleadingly called the war of attrition, implying it is low level. it's not. it is really fierce. there's extremely high casualty rates. and the ukrainians are screaming out for more weapons, more artillery, more howitzers, and

tanks and heavier stuff that the germans have pledged to deliver but haven't yet. they're screaming out for it now. long-range mission into the european union is going to be no compensation if ukraine loses a lot of territory to putin in the short term. >> let's pick up where ed and david were discussing. there is hope that ukraine would make candidate status to the eu by week's end. next week, there are summits where ukraine will be front and center. certainly, the nato gathering in madrid, a lot will be made there of convincing turkey, erdogan, to allow sweden and finland in. but the g-7 and germany ahead of that, much will be exactly on this topic. pushing the wealthy countries to do more for ukraine. >> i think it is essential. i think the key here is we have to understand that we're making a mistake in the way we think about the war. because we keep thinking about

it as their war. the ukrainians are fighting. we need to think about it as our war. putin is waging war on the west. he is trying to destroy the rules-based international order that we americans, we europeans, we all stand for this. this is a direct threat to all of us. we need to understand, this is not a foreign aid project. this is not charity. this is self-defense. this is the front line of freedom right here in the donbas. the ukrainians are fighting and dying for all of us. we need to step up. and to echo what ed luce was saying, it is unacceptable that, right now, the ukrainians are being outgunned 10 to 1 in artillery. they're losing over 100 soldiers a day. the united states has not seen those kinds of losses since world war ii. the ukrainians are willing to fight. they're willing to die. they are defending their land. they are standing up to one of the most evil dictators in the world, but they don't have the

weapons they need to get the job done. they have just enough to prevent a russian victory, but they don't have enough to defeat the russians and win for ukraine. that is unacceptable. all of us need to step up. europeans, in particular, as joe suggested, because they are doing less than we are. but we need to step up, too. we're not providing gray eagle drones the ukrainians need. we're not providing as many multiple launch rocket systems as they need. all of us collectively can be and should be doing more because we need to understand this is our fight that the ukrainians are on the front lines of. >> you know, i've long talked about the greatness of this country, american exceptionalism, how americans have fed and freed more people than any other country in the history of this planet. david ignatius, i got a call yesterday, on father's day, from my 18-year-old daughter who was

leaving poland. she has spent the past month in poland. we know a few people over there. but she -- i asked her, i said, "how has the month been?" she said, "you know, dad, i always loved my country. i just never recognized how much good work we do everywhere." she had said, you know, whether she was in refugee relief camps doing work there, whether she was doing relief work in medical facilities, whether she was fortunate enough to be able to go to diplomatic events, she -- seeing american soldiers and hearing the polish people and others talk about those american soldiers and marines as guarantors of freedom. she said, it's remarkable, the

good we are doing here, and how the united states and its footprint is everywhere. she said, "and here, it is all positive." i was moved. i always -- we take our country for granted, what we do too often, we take it for granted. often, i hear from immigrants telling me, you just don't know how good you have it here, joe. you americans take the greatness of your country for granted. i thought that was a really nice father's day call. because what she got to see firsthand poland. >> well, first, good for your daughter, to be there and be doing her part and bearing witness. i think there's no anecdote for a lot of the things americans feel, it's better than going overseas and understanding from that vantage what our country stands for, what our values are. that for my father's, your

father's generation was transforming, that experience of serving overseas. i know it's been for my children. part of leadership for america has always been that we are out front. we give more for europe's defense than european countries do. that's just been a fact of life since 1945. i wish it were different. i wish the french and germans would put in more. i've heard from some of our senior military officers that when a particular german self-propelled artillery piece finishes training for ukraine, within the next few days, it'll make a difference on the battlefield. joe, you shouldn't think the germans are doing nothing. there are specific weapons ukrainians can't wait to get. but in this period, i think zelenskyy, the president of rem

world of what it is like to stand up for things you believe in. i mean, when i traveled the last time in europe, i saw, especially in eastern europe and poland, ukrainian flags flying from almost every building. people just wanted to say, this president zelenskyy, this little country has dared to stand up to a superpower, and they're fighting for their lives. it is an electrifying feeling for europeans and i hope for americans, too. it reminds us of what really matters in the world. again, in the last couple weeks, there was a real question about whether we were going to, you know, decide the russians were winning, ukrainian friends couldn't succeed, and they really ought to go negotiate. i think that's ended. i think people have reckoned with the reality, this is a long fight. you have to stand with your friends. first of all, president zelenskyy. your daughter bearing witness to

what that looks like and feels like on the ground is pretty powerful. >> it really is. david ignatius, ed luce, and max boot, incredible conversation. thank you all very much for coming on this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," we'll hear from the lawmaker who will lead tomorrow's public hearing on the january 6th attack on the capitol. plus, a new, alarming detail about the response to the uvalde school shooting, as if we need more alarming details. why an officer says he did not fire a shot at the gunman before the shooter went inside the school. we'll be joined by a former senior operations officer with the cia who says the strain of service is having a huge impact on police in one of america's largest cities. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. (music) who said you have to starve yourself to lose weight?

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as washington lawmakers negotiate new gun legislation, there was a string of violent shootings over the holiday weekend. in chicago, police say three are dead and at least 31 others injured in several shootings since friday. in d.c., a 15-year-old boy was killed and three people, including a d.c. police officer, were shot after a fight broke out during a music event yesterday. in south carolina, police are investigating after two men were shot and killed outside of a nightclub. on saturday in san antonio, at least two people were killed and five others injured from a drive-by shooting at a family barbecue. a vehicle drove by and unloaded 30 rounds. that is life in america. joining us now, former senior operations officer with the cia,

marc. in your piece for the "washington examiner," you talk about how you return to the philadelphia police department and the growing strains of service you observe, you write, in part, this, the burnout of police officers in philly is a major problem that has no end in sight. the force as several hundred officers are in strength and more leave each week. the majority of officers are in their 20s and many grew up in the city. yet they deal with the violence on a daily basis and feel a lack of support for city leaders. many suffer from low morale, depression, anger, anger issues, and a lack of sleep, all with no organized plan to help, but they suit up each day. it's not normal to witness such horrors every day, not for a cia

officer or a special operations forces operator with multiple war zone deployments. it's time to do more to help our greatest helpers. it's the least we can do for those who do the toughest job in america. reverend al, this is the other side of the issue that you're so forceful and important on. police brutality and how the police are seen in the community and how they treat people. at the same time, we need good cops and they need our support. >> absolutely. marc, one of the things in reading your column that comes to me is that there is a misplaced theory, that people in the community, and we've had a lot of violence right there in philadelphia, and i have a chapter of national action network, that talks about, just like we want to see police on

the side of people in the community when there's a policeman or woman that breaks the law, police want to know when they're fighting for the community, the community is on their side. it's not that we have different foes we're fighting, it's the same foe. we want to see people not shot by cops or robbers. i think your piece brings that out. it is very depressing this i'm a good cop, i'm not beating up somebody wrong, i'm not shooting somebody, and i'm fighting the bad guys and the people i'm fighting for despise me. >> that's right. last september, i went for the first time at the invitation of the captain, who was the 18th district commander, and i went there to talk just about leadership training. how to lead in crisis situations. i wrote a book on it. thought it'd be a good idea for me to talk to cops under his command. this time, i went pack to talk about something different.

i took a friend of mine, rob lively, a veteran of the army special operations, you know, 1,000 combat deployments. we went to talk about wellness and resiliency. because the philly cops really feel like it is a profession under siege. look, this is an apolitical statement, you know, the mental and physical health of a police officer is something we want to promote. we went on a grassroot level, how does a cop suit up every day? what can they control, physical fitness and sleep, hydration, exercise. what can you do every day so you have the capacity to act as a good cop? the response to our visit was tremendous. i think this is something that everyone can agree on. what we need to do is have, you know, our nation's police forces, you know, and the political powers that be to fund such wellness and resiliency training. it is really important. >> marc, talk about how difficult it is for them to go

out every day. i'm reminded of soldiers, sailors, airmen and they'd come home and be spit on in airports. obviously made service so much harder. of course, you served post 9/11, when, you know, chances are very good when troops walked through the airports, they'd be applauded. people would slap them on the back, thank them for everything they were doing to protect our country. seems to me the cops now have the raw end of the bargain. they're the good cops, the guys that are fighting, the women fighting in vietnam, doing what the country asked them to do and facing contempt. how do we turn that around? i ask that question not to choose sides. i ask that question because, as rev and i always talk about, we want people in every community to be safe. and right now, if the cops aren't fully engaged, if the

cops don't have support of the community, the community doesn't have the support of the cops, things keep going sideways. more and more people are killed by gun violence every week. >> well, that's right. in philadelphia, their murder rate is going to hit 500 again this year, the same as last year. carjackings are going to be up to 1,400. only several hundred a couple years ago. conviction rate for gun offenses is as low as 32%. you know, all this matters to the police officers. you know, one of the interesting thanks i did on the trip, what rob and i did on the trip, is we would stop. we'd go on a ride-along, but this is unscripted. we'd love and just talk the cops on the beat. we stopped in kensington, who is essentially open-air drug markets. talking to a young police officer there, most importantly, he was young and cared about the community. there was no derision toward the people who are really struggling there. he wanted to help them. when i thought as we left, what happens after four, five months

of every day going and seeing this? reminded me of some of the things that myself and others in the intelligence community felt the last 20 years, of mental and physical health challenges. we have to really take care of our cops. it is not good if it is a profession under siege. one more thing. i have friends in multiple police departments all over the country. when they see things such as what happened in uvalde, they were not happy with this at all. they thought the police officers must respond. there are a ton of good cops out there. i think we really have to just -- we have to support them, but it comes down to things like wellness and resiliency training, which is, you know, to make sure that they have the tools to get out in the street every day, which i think they do one of the toughest jobs in america. reminds me of what i did many years. it is amazing to see what they go through, and they deserve our support. we need police reform. we also have to support our cops on the streets. >> marc, good morning. it is jonathan. obviously, crime and shootings are up throughout the country

post pandemic. nation awash with guns. give us a sense of the officers you've spoken to, what they're saying about the impact of the aftermath of george floyd's death, the protests after that, the verdict after that. and concerns they have about, a, if they perceive the community turned on them, but also their worried about these, the fact that cell phone cameras are up everywhere. they may be caught on video, even if they are doing the right thing, but perhaps things are taken out of context, it'd look bad for them. of course, those videos do capture moments of abuse. what role is that playing? >> so there is extraordinary concern over there. i think that, you know, again, the cops i talk to, you know, were horrified at some of the terrible cases of police brutality. they didn't -- they weren't supportive of this whatsoever. it gave the profession a bad name. at the same time, they also see the political tides turning. you have, for example, in -- and i'm not talking about philadelphia in particular, but you have many district attorneys in big cities who are not

interested in prosecuting gun crimes and aren't quite interested in prosecuting police for brutality. so i think the police officers are worried. now, there is a solution to this. the solution is better training. of course, there's going to be body-worn, you know, cameras. that's just a fact of life now. but how do you kind of move forward with this? i need better training. everything with de-escalation training to use of force. ultimately, it is a profession where there are enormous challenges but there's also opportunities. the reverend and others pushed this because there is an understanding. we're not talking about defund the police. we're talking about how to fix policing, an indispensable institution. crime is out of control in many cities. cop morale is low. my last point is, we can't remain static. we have to do something because, at the end of the day, these are people who protect us. >> yeah. i'm just wondering, marc, you talked about lack of support

from city officials. then you also talked about d.a.s. obviously, a lot of concern about philly's d.a. i'm curious, though, are the cops worried about him? what city officials are they worried about not supporting them? >> i don't want to get the police officers in trouble who i spoke with. look, the philadelphia d.a. has been a controversial figure, so i don't think there is a tremendous amount of support in the philly police for him. that said, one of the messages that we've really taught, control what you can control. the voters are going to decide, you know, who is the district attorney and who is the mayor, et cetera. for a police officer on the street, there are only things you can control, such as, you know, your own mental and physical well-being. joe, you're right, in the end, there is not a lot of faith in public officials, and i think that, you know, as voters decide over the next several, you know, weeks, months, and years, and

you do see a sea change in new york city with eric adams, it is possible to have a pro-reform, pro-police mayor and city officials. i think that's the model, particularly in our big cities around the country where gun violence is endemic. >> marc polymeropoulos, thank you. we'll be reading your piece for the "washington examiner." thank you for coming on the show this morning. coming up, another messy weekend for holiday travelers, as airlines continue to struggle with demand for the summer season. plus, covid vaccines are now cleared for the youngest americans. we'll go through what parents need to know. that's all ahead on "morning joe." p. book with priceline. you save more, so you can “woooo” more. - wooo. - wooo. wooooo!!!!! woohooooo!!!! w-o-o-o-o-o... yeah, feel the savings. priceline. every trip is a big deal.

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46 past the hour. now to summer travel. boy, millions of travelers are preparing to fly home today after the holiday weekend, but many didn't even make it to their destination due to the

chaos across america's airports. fuel prices rising, a pilot shortage continues. more and more americans are wondering if this chaos at airports will ever end. it doesn't look likely any time soon. nbc news correspondent emily ikeda reports. >> reporter: this weekend, turmoil in the terminals. >> look at the line. welcome to 2022, i guess. >> reporter: more than 3,000 flight cancellations and more delays left plenty of travelers stranded this holiday weekend. >> my sister is getting married, and the reception was tomorrow. but we're not going to make it. >> reporter: the long weekend, including the new federal holiday juneteenth and father's day, drove record numbers to the nation's airports. 2.4 million passengers on friday, just shy of a pandemic high. but the soaring demand is aggravating an already strained system. >> i get here to the airport

just for our flight to be delayed, delayed, delayed. 11:30 last night, the flight was canceled. >> reporter: lines crowding terminals from charlotte to salt lake city. one passenger tweeting, no idea what to do. similar scenes played out less that be a month ago when several thousand flights were canceled over memorial day weekend. transportation secretary pete buttigieg confronting industry leaders last week, pushing airlines to provide better customer service or face federal action. buttigieg's flight was nixed as he tried to get to new york. the airlines contend with bad weather, staffing shortages, and astronomical fuel prices. >> if you can't lower costs, you raise revenue. ticket prices are going up. they're getting kind of out of control in some markets. >> reporter: round-trip tickets pushing $400 this month. the sky-high prices reflected on roadways, too. gas continuing to hover around

$5 a gallon. jumping by at least 10 cents within a week in ten states. as the summer travel boom ushers in a boom in costs. >> nbc's emily ikeda with that report. coming up, more on the new polling that shows nearly 6 in 10 americans believe donald trump should be charged for his role in the january 6th attack on the capitol. we'll dig into the legal argument for that. is there one? plus, after san francisco last week recalled its district attorney for seeming soft on crime, one of our next guests says it is time democrats fully embrace public safety as a progressive cause. former homeland security secretary jeh johnson joins the conversation. "morning joe" will be right back. r hero needs solutions. so she starts a miro to brainstorm. “shoot it?” suggests the scientists. so they shoot it.

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53 past the hour. welcome back.

as we have been discussing over the past several weeks, the country is awaiting a decision from the u.s. supreme court that certainly suggests the end of roe v. wade. former secretary of state hillary clinton discussed that in a new interview with "the financial times" and it reads in part, the level of insidious rule-making too further oppress women almost knows no end, clinton says. you look at this and how could you not but think margaret atwood was a prophet. she's not just a brilliant writer, she was a prophet, clinton adds when she was a senator she voted against the confirmation of samuel alito, one of the court's most conservative judges. i found alito was the kind of young man who when he was at princeton railed against coeducation, railed against letting women into eating clubs and that was all in the background. she recalls he honestly struck me as one of those very

self-righteous types, seeking to remake society. and joining us now, co-founder and ceo of the group all in together, lauren leader and columnist for "the new york times" and msnbc contributor michelle goldberg, who writes about a changing perception of feminism. the piece is titled "the future isn't female anymore," and michelle writes this, the drift, a buzzie literary journal founded by left leaning women in their late 20s published a series of short essays earlier this year under the rubric what to do about feminism. they described an ambient feeling that feminism has been sapped of cultural vitality, even as an anti-feminist backlash is gathering momentum and young people, especially, were turning against the most, predictably most young republicans agree with the statement. feminism has done more harm than

good. what was astonishing was how many young democrats agreed as well. nearly a quarter of democratic women under 50 agreed, compared with only 10% of those 50 and older. it is perhaps inevitable that a movement that was the height of fashion in the last decade would start to seem passe in this one. feminism is particularly given to cycles of matricide. as the backlash gains steam, a lot of feminism feels enervated. there is a desperate hope among reproductive rights activists that the end of roe v. wade would lead to an explosive feminism mobilization. it is far from clear whether a political groundswell will materialize. i'll let you take that point

another step further, are you seeing it, are you seeing that reaction to this potential decision that is coming? >> i mean certainly there is a lot of anger and grief out there. part of the genesis of the piece was trying to understand why there hadn't yet been, you know, people pouring into the streets, why there was nothing on the scale of the women's march after donald trump's election or the just flurry of organizing that accompanied it. there is, i think, a feeling of exhaustion, despair, disillusionment now that is incompatible with a lot of activists. >> it is funny, lauren leader, after trump won and the women's marches and the pink hats and people are, like what does that mean? it meant a lot at the midterms. it meant a lot of in terms of women turning out the vote. but i don't see that right now. what is going on, do you think? >> yeah, well, michelle is

right, there is a lot of fatigue on the left generally and frustration among women that we're going backwards, that it feels like our political system is sort of hopeless. i think the other problem is among younger women voters, there is a lack of patience in a sense. we think we're going to get everything all at once, that by turning one election, by winning the senate, the house and the white house, that overnight a whole bunch of things are going to happen and that's just not the reality of how our political system -- and we talked before about younger voters and their apathy about the sense that they're not getting what they want from our political leaders and rather than that being galvanizing to work longer, harder, for the long-term, it is turning them off. i think, look, i think on the left, i mean on the right there has been an extraordinarily effective movement over 40 to 50 years to paint feminism as a negative and it has worked in

many ways. it has always been a complicated term, one that is controversial, that's partially because as you see, especially now, we have talked about the before on the right, this sort of rising tide of autocracy is also tied to a rising tide of misogyny. the southern poverty law center, we're seeing this poll about this, we're seeing this anti-woman undercurrent in the rise of this autocratic movement, on the far right, that is tied to trump, it is also very anti-woman and in some ways it is working. >> and so, michelle, do you agree with what lauren just said, is that what's happening? >> i think that's a huge part of what's happening but not the entirety of it. because, you know, if it was just the right that would be scary enough. but the disaffection on the left, i think, is slightly more complicated. it is not just accepting trumpist style misogyny even unconsciously. it is a sense that the solutions that modern feminism proposes

don't have much to say to the crises that a lot of the young women feel like they're facing. particularly i think a sort of professional class lean in style feminism doesn't speak to a generation that feels like the work world in general is a site of hostility and oppression. >> but, lauren leader, just to close real quick, with all in together what are you seeing? how are women -- is anything galvanizing them, especially younger women, or are they feeling defeated? >> well, no, i think that part of what we see in the work we do with it, when you make politics accessible, make it local, make it personal, give women the tools to engage with local leaders and see they can have an impact, they turn out and they do. the big national sort of sense of intractability in big issues can be a turnoff. there are solutions and the solution really is around getting engaged and the more women get engaged in the

political process, the more they turn out, the more they do see they can make a difference, even in a very polarizing and difficult time. >> co-founder and ceo of all in together, lauren leader, and "new york times" columnist michelle goldberg. thank you, both, very much for being on the show this morning. it is the top of the hour, where the action this week is on capitol hill. it will put a focus on this call, just days before the january 6th attack. >> all i want to do is this, i just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state. so what are we going to do here, folks? i only need 11,000 votes. fellas, i need 11,000 votes. give me a break. >> so that's donald trump and his conference call with georgia officials, trying to pressure the state's top election

official to cheat to help him win the election. that call is already at the center of a grand jury investigation -- >> i mean, seriously, how could that not be at the center of a grand jury investigation? when you call the secretary of state and say, come on, i need one more vote than i lost by. go out and get it. come on, guys. give me a break. i only need 11,000 votes. it is -- that is a smoking gun, that is something that even trump can't weasel his way out of. >> tomorrow that official georgia secretary of state brad raffensperger will testify before the january 6th committee. >> you know, i just -- i want to go back, do we still have jonathan lemire with us? bingo! how about that. i just called it out. >> he's always there. >> exactly. he's always there. seek and ye shall find, lemire. we won again yesterday, lemire. it is a good thing.

father's day is ruined by losses before, red sox losses. so we love our kids and all, but, you know, red sox need to win on father's day too to make it complete. but, you know, i still -- i want to go back, this call is one of the -- you've written a book about trump, you've written a book -- it is going to be coming out, but this is one of the -- this is one of the most remarkable moments in all of his efforts to steal an american election, away from someone who is elected by 80 million people, where he actually says i need this many votes. not only did the secretary of state not give him those votes, he recorded the phone conversation, released it, and we fast-forward a couple of years and i must say, we're looking for green chutes here,

and we looked at the 60% poll. i got to say the fact that he absolutely trounced his opponent despite the fact trump made him and kemp in georgia enemy number one. those are a couple of green chutes there that it may not be a cult to everywhere in america, this following of donald trump and his conspiracy theories and his lies. >> joe, i'm always here. and we should note the sox have won 11 of the last 13 series that's something to be happy about. still, 13 games by the yankees. this is -- while we played the audio of the phone call a moment ago, we both kind of laughed not because it is funny, because it remains now, we had that call in our lives for over a year and a half, just how galling it is, just how shameless it is, he knew exactly the number of votes he needed to win and he was demanding the secretary of state of a battleground state to deliver them for him. and georgia, of course, such an embarrassing defeat for donald

trump. georgia had gone republican consistently for cycle after cycle after cycle. the democrats only started playing there in the fall of 2020, when they realized, hey, these polls are closer than we expected, joe biden able to win it, and then, of course donald trump's temper tantrum about that, led him to sabotage the republican senate candidates in that state and deliver not just those two seats, but the entirety of the state to the senate, to the democrats. we hear from raffensperger this week, this is someone who won this primary over whelmingly. when he stood up to trump and releasd that phone call to the "washington post," the backlash of the gop was immediate and overwhelming and the sense is that raffensperger's political career was over. you could not do this to donald trump. you could not stand up to him and he did. and we know that in certain places, standing up to trump is still a fool's errand. we have seen people who voted for his impeachment, republicans vote for his impeachment resign or get beaten. there are some places you can do

it and win. in the battleground state of georgia is one of those. and raffensperger's testimony this week keenly anticipated. >> georgia, just an absolutely fascinating state, state where i was born and when i was born democrats were winning state wide and then as they get older, republicans started winning the suburbs of north georgia, north atlanta, and now that's completely switched, democrats are starting to make gains in there. hey, rev, it is so blatant and it is not a conspiracy, a quiet conspiracy that donald trump runs, he says all the illegal things out loud. he says all of the -- all of the totalitarian things out loud. his desire to be a totalitarian leader, to be an autocrat, he just blurts it out, and here we have him blurting out the fact

that he needs a secretary of state to rig the election, give him 11,000 votes, one more than he needs to win, and be done with it. he said, give me a break, like, he was shocked that the secretary of state wasn't willing to break the law as readily as he was. >> i think one of the things we have to really realize and you and i know donald trump is that donald trump makes the mistake that a lot of people, that i would say that have a criminal mentality, because i think what he's done from my assessment has been criminal at least around january 6th, do they assume that everybody is on the make like they are, because what he's saying to the guy is one thing, and clearly i think should be considered illegal. but the other thing is the assumption that the guy will just go along with it and go find these votes. and i think that you get a guy

like raffensperger that says, wait a minute, not not only am i going to uphold the office i'm in, i'm not that kind of guy who are you -- who do you think i am that i'm going to go and just rob votes or do something that is illegal, or unethical for you? and i think that's the mistake that trump makes and a lot of people that we have known in our careers, that they are sued because they're on the make, everybody is on the make and sometimes people can be insulted that you would assume that i'm as low down as you are. >> tomorrow's hearing will be led by democratic congressman adam schiff who will -- the panel will present evidence that trump was involved in a plot to push slates of fake electors to overturn the 2020 election. >> do you have evidence that the former president himself was

involved? >> yes, we will show evidence that the president's involvement in this scheme. we'll also, again, show evidence about what his own lawyers came to think about this scheme. and we'll show courageous state officials who stood up and said they wouldn't go along with this plan to either call it back into session or decertify the results for joe biden, the system held because a lot of state and local election officials upheld their oath to the constitution. a lot of them are republicans as well as democrats. we'll show during the hearing what the president's role was in trying to get states to name alternate slates of electors, how that scheme depended initially on hopes that legislatures would reconvene and bless it. >> meanwhile, the january 6th select committee says it is cooperating with a request by the justice department to share transcripts of their witness

interviews. on wednesday, the doj sent the committee a two-page letter, expressing frustration over the panel's refusal to grant access of its trove of witness interviews. renewing a request for speedy access. department officials say those documents would aid the prosecution of people who breached the capitol, including leaders of the proud boys. they're cooperating, just not right now. >> -- when to turn over the transcripts by the end of the week? >> no. >> what is your reaction when they say -- >> look, that does not mean we're not going to cooperate. we got the letter yesterday. we interviewed over a thousand witnesses. we had a number of information. that means we have to stop what we're doing that then work with the department of justice. we will eventually cooperate

with them. we have five more hearings to work through. we have a lot of other things to do. >> so you won't share with them before the hearings is over. you won't share any transcripts with them before the hearings? >> no. >> joining us now, msnbc national security analyst michael schmidt and state attorney for palm beach county, florida, dave aaronburg. i'm curious why, dave aaronburg, just share some of the documents, why not? >> good morning, mika. i think this is an outgrowth of the frustration of the january 6th committee that the department of justice seems to be dragging its feet in the investigation. remember, doj has even more power than january 6th committee to compel evidence because their subpoenas are backed by the authority of the department of justice, where you go to jail if you don't comply. if you don't comply with a january 6th committee subpoena, well, then you could have to go to a higher court and talk about

more or then eventually it goes to the department of justice to decide whether to enforce those subpoenas and there is frustration within the j-6 committee that merrick garland refused to enforce the committee's subpoenas when it comes to dan scavino and mark meadows. you combine that with the slow pace of the investigation, where doj seems to be drafting behind the committee, doj would take the lead. so here, the committee is saying, hey, we're doing all your work for you, man. so, you know, step up, and be more aggressive. i think that's the basis for this turf war. it is ugly. i think this is an example of the j 6 committee pushing back. >> so, michael, you have new reporting for "the new york times" on the possible hurdles to prosecuting donald trump, for crimes relating to january 6th. you co-write the piece and in part it says this, the justice department were to bring a case against him, prosecutors would face the challenge of showing

that he knew or should have known that his position was based on assertions about widespread election fraud that were false. or that his attempt to block the congressional certification of the outcome was illegal. in investigations that are focused almost exclusively on physical action, prosecutors do not need to focus on proving intent, since the link between the action and the harm is typically clear. the question of intent can be muddied when the crime under investigation involves an action in which the defendant's state of mind can be hard to establish. the crimes that legal experts say mr. trump may have committed obstructing congress, defrauding the american people, and seditious conspiracy, fall into that bucket. >> and yet, michael, we keep hearing one witness after another saying that they told donald trump that his claims

were specious. they told donald trump that they were crack pot conspiracy theories and he seemed to acknowledge that, even his own lawyer said he understood that some of the stuff was illegal and that the supreme court would strike it down 9-0. does none of that testimony seem to have any impact on establishing intent? >> so, the biggest piece -- the biggest disclosure we have learned that moves the question on intent is what you're referring to, is the fact that when the vice president's lawyer was testifying last week, he said that in front of trump, john eastman had said that the legal theory that they were pursuing was essentially baseless, which was essentially bogus. they went ahead and did it anyway. and in terms of moving the ball, in showing that what trump knew

what he was doing was wrong. that he was undertaking a wrongful effort to overturn the election, and was not simply believing these fantastical things about what had happened with the election, that was a significant development. and when we saw that, and we looked at that, we said, well, this really helps explain the question of intent, that the government will have to wrestle with and deal with if they were to bring charges. because you're dealing with someone like donald trump who has a highly unusual abnormal relationship with the truth, who knows what is really going on in that mind, but that conversation with eastman in which the vice president's lawyer testified to significantly shows that the president had been told that the legal effort was wrong, and if he were to say, well, i ignored that, then he woefully did that, he looked the other way on legal

advice about how he was going to use his power at one of the most critical if not the most critical juncture of his presidency. >> so the committee is also waiting to hear back from ginni thomas, the wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas. last week investigators requested she come testify after it was revealed she had been in communication with john eastman, the architect of the president's plan to overturn the election. congressman adam schiff was asked about that yesterday. >> we want to know what she knows, what her involvement was in this plot to overturn the election, she has said she's willing to come in and testify voluntarily. we're glad to hear that. really anyone with pertinent information we want to hear from them. so we have a range of questions to ask her, obviously i think the committee will be interested among other things if this was discussed with justice thomas

given he was ruling on cases impacting whether we would get some of this information. >> so, david aaronburg, we have so much that we learned about ginni thomas, whether her texts with mark meadows, whether it is her contact with arizona state legislators saying don't actually send the actual legislators or the electors that are supposed to come, throw out the election results there and get your own electors. we also, of course, have other communication as well. if you're on that committee, what specifically do you want to learn from ginni thomas' communication since she says she wants to cooperate? >> joe, i'll believe it when i see it, she actually shows up, especially without a subpoena. she has a lot of criminal liability. i want to know about the conversations with arizona

leaders, i want to know about her conversations with her husband. it is astonishing that you have a supreme court justice ruling on matters that his own wife is involved in, that's because the supreme court, they make their own rules and interpret their own rules. >> let me cut you off real quickly. she said she faces criminal liability, criminal liability for what, she could be charged with obstruction of an official proceeding, you don't have to be there at the capitol that day, she can be charged with conspiracy to defraud the united states government, and so these are potential charges and you got to be believe her lawyers are telling her this. also, if she shows up in lies before the committee, she can be charged with perjury. that' why i don't know if she'll show up. we'll see. >> interesting. >> about the intent that donald trump needs to have to prosecute him, where you have to show criminal intent, you have to show that he actually believed the election was legit, as a prosecutor, i want to cast some doubt on that. i don't think you have to show donald trump actually believed and knew the election was legitimate. there are more than 800 people

currently being charged by the department of justice for the insurrection who all believed the election was stolen. so for trump, you just need to show he went through the process of going to the courts and lost 61 cases, and then after he lost, he then pressured local government officials to find a certain number of votes, pressured doj officials to declare fraud when they didn't think it existed, submitted false electors, and allegedly unleashed the violent mob on to the capitol and refused to call them off. all of that shows criminal intent, regardless of whether trump truly believed the election was stolen. >> jonathan, responding to dave's point there, but also give us a sense the hearings resume tomorrow. we have two this week, likely one more the following it looks like. the -- tell us about the threads that the committee is going to be pulling at now. what is the main -- each hearing has been so well organized, streamlined, so smart.

where are they going next? >> well, what the committee is doing is they're trying to build this larger narrative by taking the sort of five, six, seven different buckets of avenues that the republicans and trump's allies and trump pursued to show the wide ranging nature of the effort to overturn the election, with what seems to be probably a hearing at the end or close to the end that shows trump's indifference in responding to it, the many -- what went on during the many hours of the siege on the capitol, and what was trump doing behind the scenes to not respond, to encourage or what was actually going on in the west wing. so we have seen those different elements laid on top of each other, and it continues to be build out a larger and bigger narrative about what went on. last week, they moved the the ball significantly in terms of showing the potential

criminality of trump. to dave's point, prosecutors and legal experts would say that the president's willfulness even to not acknowledge the truth is something that could be used against him and could be a way of showing where his actions are. and a larger level, on the question of trump and his criminality, the justice department will ultimately have to look at whether bringing charges against a former president of the united states is in the best interests of the country. those are charges, considerations that are often not given to run of the mill cases that the department brings. but when having to charge someone who was a president, and by all intents and purposes looks like he wants to run again, there are just considerations about the larger impact of it, that would go all the way to the top of the justice department. i understand that that may bother many people, they may say

he should be treed exactly as everyone else. but in every major decision the justice department has these larger considerations are brought into the fold because if they were to charge trump, it wouldn't just be charging one individual, it would have a significant -- it would be a significant matter for the entire country. >> "new york times" reporter michael schmidt, and dave aaronburg, thank you very much for being on this morning. now moving to some other stories making headlines across the country this morning, the connecticut post writes, several key democratic lawmakers say they would support a measure to raise the minimum age for purchasing most firearms. house chair of the judiciary committee steve sastrom says connecticut should consider legislation modeled after a law passed in new york this month to raise the minimum age for buying semi-automatic rifles. "the home news tribune" reports

eviction filings in new jersey are climbing to prepandemic levels. they sift through tens of thousands of eviction cases that were halted for nearly two years during the pandemic. experts say even with the state's millions of dollars and rental assistance, the need for extra money to make up missed rent payments is dire. staying in new jersey, "the record" reports the state's transit system has filed a complaint in federal court asking a judge to force locomotive engineers who are not showing up for work to begin to do so. the complaint comes as rail commuters see a spike in canceled trains. if a judge rules in favor of new jersey transit, engineers who missed work without a legitimate reason could face fines or even possibly jail time. to florida "the st. lucie news tribune" highlights disney's

decision to delay moving thousands of jobs from california to florida. the relocation was originally expected to occur at the end of this year. but has been pushed back to 2026. a disney spokesperson says the delay is unrelated to any dispute between the company and florida over the state's new education law that goes into effect next month. and also in florida, according to "the news press" amber alerts will soon be shown on instagram, in an effort to extend their reach. with the new feature, if an amber alert is activated, anyone who is in the designated search area will see it on their feed. the alert will include information about the missing child, including an image, description, and location. still ahead on "morning joe," former president trump responds to the january 6th hearings with some of his favorite lies about the 2020 election. plus, a couple of awkward

moments for republicans, when it comes to gun legislation. one senator got booed by a right wing crowd. another struggled to defend his opposition to popular safety measures. also ahead, we'll get an update on some u.s. veterans who have gone missing while fighting for ukrainian forces. "morning joe" will be right back. r ukrainian forces "morning joe" will be right back pain hits fast. so get relief fast. only tylenol rapid release gels have laser drilled holes. they release medicine fast for fast pain relief. and now get relief without a pill with tylenol dissolve packs. relief without the water. so this is the meta portal plus. a smart video calling device that makes working from home work. a 12-megapixel lens makes sure your presentation is crystal clear. and smart camera auto pans and zooms to keep you perfectly in frame. oh, and it syncs with your calendar. plus, with zoom, microsoft teams, and webex, you'll never miss a meeting.

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retired federal judge j. michael luttig testified last week that donald trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present danger to american democracy and the quote they would attempt to overturn that 2024 election in the same way that they had attempted to overturn the 2020 election. well, as looking to prove judge luttig correct, trump addressed

a crowd at a faith and freedom coalition rally in nashville, tennessee. this is not from a year ago. where he continued to parrot many of his lies regarding the events of january 6th, including that the rioters were not violent. >> if it were an insurrection that took place at the capitol, you would have known it very soon. they would have -- these were strong people. these were great patriots. there were no guns. i heard they didn't have one gun. nobody was killed. except for a wonderful young woman named ashli babbitt who was viciously shot and in my opinion, for absolutely no reason. >> that was friday. this past friday. he also called what happened, joe, that day, a quote, simple protest, that got out of hand. and he unleashed more criticism

on former vice president mike pence, whose refusal to overturn the 2020 election results has become a key focus of the january 6th committee. >> mike and i say it sadly because i like him, but mike did not have the courage to act. mike was afraid of whatever he was afraid of. but as you heard a year and a half ago, mike pence had absolutely no choice but to be a human conveyor belt, human conveyor belt, even if the votes were fraudulent, he had to send the votes, couldn't do anything. i said to mike, if you do this, you can be thomas jefferson. and then after it all went down, i looked at him one day and i said, mike, hate to say this, but you're no thomas jefferson. >> trump also said if he decides to run again for president, and is re-elected, he would, quote,

seriously look at pardons for the january 6th defendants. my god, joe. i mean, this, to me, is, i mean, we talked about this before, but the fact that he continues now, i just wonder, i mean if this ends up in the legal realm, what would happen? >> well -- >> he might get charged. >> let's talk about -- the judge was exactly right. they are a clear and present danger to the constitution of the united states. donald trump is a clear and present danger. he was in 2020. judge luttig is right. one of the most revered conservative legal minds over the past generation is right. he remains a clear and present danger. he somehow overlooked the fact that this so-called simple protest led to police officers just having the hell beaten out of them.

one going home and dying of a stroke the next day. others committing suicide because of what they saw that day. he somehow forgot that his own party members, his own allies were calling, screaming, begging him to call off the mob. the people were going to get hurt, the people were going to die. and the contempt -- this is what, you know, the people clapping out there, i would love to know what ralph reed thinks of the people clapping out of there when donald trump just said that mike pence could have just snapped his fingers and completely upended the constitution. because what donald trump showed in that meeting place was absolute contempt for the constitution. absolute contempt for what conservatives used to talk about

as far as law and order. absolute contempt for our men and women in blue, many of them just beaten senseless. >> this is not a simple protest. >> this is not a simple protest that got a little out of control. and what we're looking at here and what we're looking at with donald trump and we have to say it, martin luther king said the day we see the truth, and we cease to speak it is the day we begin to die, in this case die as a country, what we're seeing is a rise of fascism in america. quite clearly the rise of fascism in the form of donald trump. and the fact that he used violence and he pushed his followers to use violence and many now in jail while he flies back and forth on his private jet to mar-a-lago suggests that he wants it to happen again and,

rev, that's what we heard, that's what we heard, that regardless of everything that happened before, the judge is right, donald trump is still a clear and present danger to the united states of america and the constitution. >> i think that with a couple of things here, joe, one is you must look at the fact that we can't just keep letting donald trump say things and not challenge to the american public. what he is saying is either complete nonsense or he's rewriting history. for example, you just played the clip that he said that the vice president pence could have been thomas jefferson. what does that mean? what is he saying thomas jefferson was? really, what does that mean? it is either him being totally ignorant of who we think thomas

jefferson was in history in terms of the founding of the country, and in terms of setting up the constitution, or he's just throwing names which shows that he really looks down on the intelligence of his own crowd. but secondly, and i think an important point we should not miss is the democrats need to read very carefully where the country going because if this poll, whether or not we think there needs to be other polling or not, let's look at this poll. in six out of ten americans are now saying he should be charged. does that now say to the democrats if you don't charge him, you better have a good explanation as to why not, otherwise it could back fire on you because obviously most democrats feel that there ought to be some referral to the justice department, so in many ways, just like republicans need to look at the fact that they are out of step with where the

majority of americans are according to this poll, democrats need to look at the fact that people are expecting you to protect this democracy and protect the law, and if you don't, you need to have a good explanation why. so, yes, the republicans are on the cliff, but the democrats also don't flirt with me if you're not going to take me to the prom. coming up, ukraine stopped russia from seizing its capital, but the fight in the east is a different battlefield. we'll break down the latest on the kremlin's invasion. and whether the west is doing enough to stop the march of tyranny in europe. "morning joe" is coming right back. tyranny in europe. "morning joe" is cominrig ght back

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fox news polling shows there is a lot of strength behind the proposal at this point, back ground checks for guns, by and large, most of them are background checked before you do a purchase, 88% moving the legal

age for an assault rifle purchase, banning assault weapons, 63%. there is a lot of momentum at least among the public sphere for doing this, are you out of step with your constituents? >> okay, so, first of all, what is important is that we look out for the rights of constituents. constituents are asked poll questions, not asked questions about specific language within legislative text. it is the job of the lawmaker to look out for the interests and their rights of the law abiding citizens they represent. >> well, there is absolutely nothing in any of the litigation -- any of the legislation that would even remotely touch any any second amendment rights as interpreted by the supreme court and the second -- over the past 220, 30

years. if you look at the second amendment and how it has been interpreted by this conservative court, there is nothing in there that republican senator mike lee of utah has anything to worry about. the only thing he has to worry about and when answering why he's not supporting a gun reform bill that would contain measures that an overwhelming number of americans support, mika, is to try to explain why he has such contempt for the overwhelming majority of americans and also contempt for the intelligence of people in his own state, because what he's saying is just not -- i get so sick and tired of people who lie about what the second amendment does not say and what it does say, and that's all so many republicans seem to know how to do. >> every time i hear them saying things like this, i think do you not think there going to be a mass shooting in utah? look at the numbers. they speak for themselves, the

story speaks for itself and the story comes to a town near you, i'm not saying it in a threatening or glaring way, i'm saying it because i'm frightened for the country. you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube with assault weapons. >> if people want to represent their district, if they want to protect their people, they need to pass public safety laws that would do that. if bridges kept falling down -- >> right. >> and people kept getting killed all over america, there would be such an outcry, and people go, well, there is the bridges aren't in the constitutio. well, guess what, what most republicans are saying about guns, that's not in the constitution either. the second amendment is very clear, heller is very clear, you look all across the nation, connecticut has far more aggressive gun safety laws than

what congress is trying to pass and the supreme court has refused to overturn any of those laws. >> yeah. >> meanwhile, here is moment senator john cornyn of texas, the top republican involved in the bipartisan gun legislation negotiations, he was booed on friday. as he spoke at the texas republican convention. >> let's take our country back, starting with congress in november. thank you. god bless you. and may god continue to bless our great state of texas. [ booing ] >> cheering cornyn's speech, some audience members could be heard booing and chanting, quote, no red flag, an apparent reference to the state laws that allow guns to be confiscated from people considered to be a danger to themselves or society.

are you serious? amid the backlash, cornyn did insist there were certain lines he wouldn't cross, telling the crowd, quote, i will not under any circumstance support new restrictions for law abiding gun owners that will always be my red line. and despite what some of you may have heard, the framework that we're working on is consistent with that red line. after he was booed, cornyn was also heard saying, quote, i never give in to mobs and i'm not starting today. >> good for him. good for him. jonathan lemire, it is hard to believe that people in the crowd out there were booing red flag laws, they want 18-year-olds who are crazy, who are insane, to be able to walk in, who are troubled, they want people who have been -- who have been flagged as dangerous to be able to go in, and buy weapons of war

on their 18th birthday and go shoot up schools. how could they be against basic public safety laws? i want to say, basic public safety laws have one constitutional, two consistent with the second amendment, three consistent with heller, and, four, would save lives. >> and, five, enjoy the support of the vast majority of americans. john cornyn, though, certainly a true -- true republican, looks look a moderate compared to a lot of the texas state gop right now. that gathering over the weekend adopted a measure that referred to joe biden as the acting president. not recognizing the legitimacy of his victory. as jonathan swant hinted at earlier, there is growing

concern with -- about the future of this legislation. there is a real uprising among the conservatives in the republican party in that caucus about any sort of measure to be passed in the wake of the tragedies in uvalde and buffalo. the snag was hit last week, the framework, the actual legislation has not been drafted yet. they're still working on that. senator murphy of connecticut, he says that he still does believe this will get done. there is a sense, though, that it might slip again, that it might not be finished this week, which had been the goal before the senate disappears for a two-week july 4th recess. there has been a concern from the beginning about momentum and about timing and something doesn't get done right away, more time elapses, the less chance there is of it getting finished. this is an incremental measure at best. progress to be sure, perhaps not a lot. so therefore there is a real crunch here to try to get at least some firm commitments done, even if it is not on paper by week's end. coming up, a live report

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welcome back to "morning joe." an update now on the war in europe as ukraine continues to mount a fierce defense against the kremlin's invasion. this as reports surface of american fighters now held captive by russian forces. nbc news correspondent molly hunter reports. >> reporter: this morning the families of three americans are trying to get them home, russian state media published a propaganda video showing veterans alex and andy appearing in captivity. nbc news is not showing the video. according to their families they went missing more than a week ago from the city of kharkiv. after the video surfaced, joy

black saying in a statement, they're americans we want them home, nothing else matters right now. the state department has not commented on the video or confirmed the names of the three americans. according to his family, the third american, also a u.s. vet is grady kirkpat who was in regular touch until the end of april. >> he was super happy, felt like he was doing the right thing. >> his family believes he's still alive. >> we want to have an answer for the family. that's our mission is find out where grady is. we do believe that there's a good possibility he's a p.o.w. right now. >> reporter: detaining prisoners of war is legal, they can be held until the end of the conflict but they must be treated in line with international law. >> what are you watching for in coming days to make sure that they are being treated as prisoners of war? >> the first main thing would be they have access to the international red cross and they're registered with the

international red cross as prison ers of war. >> reporter: ashlin ready wants to clarity about who's holding them and where? >> the concern is they'll atempt to bring charges against them and use that in negotiation as leverage. >> that was molly hunter reporting. when it comes to homeland security, a good place to start might be protecting children. former obama secretary cabinet, jeh johnson is standing by with his message to fellow democrats when it comes to public safety the "morning joe" is coming right back. the "morning joe" is right back it's still the eat fresh refresh, which means subway's upping their bread game.

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and find the answer that was right under their nose. or... his nose. live look at los angeles this morning. >> beautiful. >> it is 9:00 a.m. in the east, but 6:00 a.m. out west. time to get up, welcome back to "morning joe" can be jonathan

lemire -- >> hold a second. if it's 6:00 a.m. in l.a., a lot of people i know out there who don't think they should get up till 10:00 a.m. west coast time. >> or they're still up. >> or they're still up. yeah. a lot of people, mika, have we not said. a lot of people said they watch our show in l.a. when they're coming in. >> that's not healthy. >> it's a different lifestyle than old people like me. >> and me. jonathan lemire is still with us for the hour, the host of "way too early". we have a lot to get to, including tomorrow's hearing from the house committee investigating the january 6th attack on the capitol. which one member says they'll present new evidence tying former president trump directly to the fake elector plot. and new poll numbers that think the former president should be charged for his role in the