the crucial mission undertaken by the january 6th select committee to leave, no doubt, in the hearts and minds of the american people about donald trump's significant role in what amounts to a failed coup is poised to take another huge leap forward this week. whereas last week the focus centered on what amounts to the end of the story, at least for now, trump's failed effort to pressure vice president mike pence into overturning the results of a free, fair and secure election. tomorrow we'll learn more about the dark and dirty legal scheming that came before all of that. that includes a similar effort to pressure state and local officials into overturning their results. you might recall the most well-known chapter of this particular escapade, a phone call and a pressure campaign to election officials in georgia dated january 2 ndz. >> i just want to find 11,780

votes which is one more than we have because we won the state. >> still remarkable to hear him. that was georgia's secretary of state brad raffensperger on the receiving end of that request. he and his deputy gabe sterling will be the witnesses along with two recent recipients of the jfk profile and courage award for their actions and courage during the 2020 election. georgia elections worker andrea shea moss who also came under pressure. the testimony doesn't stop there, we'll hear what one federal judge described this way, a coup in search of a legal theory. that is the way trump and his legal team in the days following his historic defeat latched on like sea urchins to a radical, unconstitutional effort to leave him in power in key swing states. in advance of that line of

questioning, there is brand-new reporting in the washington post this weekend with an inside look of what john eastman was saying to his colleagues that they knew the plan was baseless and pursued it anyway. >> in an email sent on december 19th to a california activist with whom eastman exchanged periodic notes about the election, eastman wrote that the electors would be, quote, dead on arrival in congress. his reasoning, no state legislature had acted to certify them as valid. just four days later, eastman wrote to other trump advisers that he believed pence could indeed recognize the trump electors on january 6th, despite the lack of certification. the fact that we have multiple slates of electors demonstrate the uncertainty of either. >> congressman adam schiff will take the lead tomorrow. here's what he says what to

expect. >> we'll show evidence of the president's involvement in the scheme and we'll show evidence of what his own lawyers came to think about his scheme and we'll show courageous state officials who stood up and said they wouldn't go along with this plan to either call legislatures back into session or de-certify the results for joe biden. >> again, the committee's charge to is to get the american people to take notice of all of this, to care. a new polling on insoss suggests that on that front they're succeeding. 58% of americans say donald trump should be charged with a crime for his role in the riot. six points higher than what a separate poll showed in april and four points higher than the days following the attack. here's committee member and republican congressman adam kinzinger. >> i certainly think that the president is guilty of knowing

what he did, and seditious, and pressuring the doj and vice president, et cetera. obviously, you know, we're not a criminal charges committee and i want to be careful in specifically using that language, but i think what we're presenting before the american people would rise to criminal involvement of the president and failure of the oath. the oath has to matter here. your personal demand to stand for the constitution has to matter and if you have people who don't regard that at all there is no law in the world that we can pass that will make a bit of difference. >> it's where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. >> jay schroeder is here. >> harry lipman is back and now the host of the podcast talking feds and former republican congressman david jolly is back, national chairman of the serve america movement as well as an msnbc contributor. harry littman, it was the first

time my ear heard a member of donald trump of trying to be part of this seditious conspiracy group. those are obviously charges that carries a connotation that adam kinzinger said and tell me what you hear adam kinzinger suggesting when he says that? >> i think he's suggesting that he joined with the people who the department has already charged in the most serious thing and actually acted to try to overthrow the republic. for my money, i think there are three very solid charges against trump, but this is the fourth and for that, you really do need an agreement with one of the identified conspirators to go forward. i think that's one where there's a very big dot for the doj to fill in, but on the others, basically they seem different and convoluted. just look for a lie at the bottom. so the alternate slates of

electors, you just heard the email from eastman saying the fact that there are alternate states of electors. that's not a fact. in fact, it's a fiction and when you have that kind of knowing lie that's what's going to anchor one of the charges they think can be proven easily so far. seditious conspiracy, the big-ticket item that they haven't shown yet with respect to congressman kinzinger. his hearing hasn't happened yet. so we don't know what the evidence is that he will present. >> i want to show you something because i think we talked about so many things. all four of us do as being locked. we don't know what we don't know. here's jamie raskin basically making that point to chuck todd over the weekend. >> there are people who are just realizing that they are in possession of facts or evidence that the committee might not have, and the chairman has encouraged everybody to come

forward and we've got a tip line. >> you have useful information. has this tip line provided you can actual, concrete information that ended up being true? >> we know things this weekend that we didn't know last weekend. >> david jolly, every time i hear it i gasp. i mean, they -- this is the -- there was so much pressure for this committee to have a public phase, and i'm not sure that there was a lot of science to when this public phase commenced, but it is abundantly clear that the investigation is ongoing and in some ways accelerated. >> that's true, nicole. i think it's been a remarkable week watching the j-6 committee play out for this particular reason. they have isolated donald trump as the bad actor in this entire process, right? even when we talk about the charge for conspiracy as harry refers to, we know there are others involved.

we know eastman was involved and giuliani and the trump apparatus was involved and what they did after the gate is they shed ivanka and jared and they shed bill barr and they shed other people who you could have suggest, look, they have a heavy hand in the process and they began to isolate donald trump as the person who received council, knew it was false and called to play. donald trump personally call the play and said we are going to commit this fraud on the american people. we are possibly going to commit this crime against the united states of america. because of that, when jamie raskin says look, it sits in a different way, and he's right. the country will find out what will we learn this week that will look different than last week? >> such a great point. jake sherman, in the court of opinion, liz cheney has made abundantly clear there's one person on trial and his name is donald trump, and in the court

of public opinion, liz cheney has accused donald trump of be on struk obstruction of a proce and there are fraud allegations being levied against him in the court of public opinion in the court. we talked so much about the politics of investigating trump, jim clyburn investigated the politics of doing nothing. >> i've been in florida, georgia, connecticut, new jersey, michigan, all in the last 30 days, and i'm telling you, people are concerned that the department of justice, may have too many carryovers and not moving to do what they need to to protect this democracy. >> are you concerned that they're not moving quick enough? >> i am.

there's no question about that. i talked to my constituents and i get a lot of my notice from them. they're concerned and so am i. >> obviously, the justice department, jake, has a different process, a different mission and a different standard than the selection committee, but adjacent to questions and concerns about investigating and prosecuting an ex president should be what jim clyburn raises here and that's the politics of not. >> so a few thoughts here. number one, i would say it's undoubtedly true that this is the most effective, congressional committee investigation process i've before are ever seen. just from top to bottom, a very, very effective presentation of facts backed up by, not inwendo, but people who worked for and with donald trump. that's number one. >> number two, i don't think

there is any doubt that there is disagreement on this committee among democrats and among the wisdom of pushing the department of just toys investigate donald trump and, and i think wye had an interaction with bennie thompson a couple of days ago and this became a big hubbub when he said we're not going to recommend charging donald trump and that's not what we're here to do so he had to immediately walk that back. that's a political question the committee is wrestling with, and at the end of the day i spoke to nancy pelosi last week, and she said i'm not going to get involved. the committee should do what they should do. i respect the point you're making and they're saying i have no idea what the impact they could make. people are miffed by gas prices

and they don't like the state of the economy and that's a fair argument, i think people if they're paying attention, but pem if they're paying attention in at least what the committee has unearthed. so there's a lot of dimensions in this, and when i watch this, nicole, i think of how they are assembling a record for the historical lectures of this country which i think is also incredibly important and goes beyond whether people will vote on this discreet topic come november. i think that's almost and again, one more thing, i'm sorry to ram bell on here, but in addition to that, if you listen to what republicans have been saying, the republican leadership, we've written a lot about this, about how the committee is not made up properly, and it's too this and too that. those kinds of arguments and the argument that they should be holding prime time hearings on

inflation and whatever, those look incredibly small at the moment compared to what this committee has unearthed and i'm very jaded, ooum very cynical and very skeptical, but i just think that this committee has done a tremendous job of assembling almost an airtight ledger and air-tight accounting effectses. >> with your proximity with the players and the pressen tagsz. it's fascinating to hear that, jake. i want to preview what will happen this week because in some ways it's the part that we know the most of from the raven% erg call and that was the story that we were all 24/7 in in the hours before the georgia special election and then the insurrection itself and it's still remarkable. i went back and listened to the whole thing. it's remarkable that that happened and nothing happened to donald trump. it's remarkable to like

listening to the old mob tapes and nothing happened. one of the things that seem to matter is the way witnesses are treated and it sounds like a little thing, but the facts that the inner sanctum of trump world. mark short didn't want to be there. i've seen his appearances on fox news where he has nothing nice so to say about the select committee and bill barr, there's nowhere he'd rather be. the interactions are so fruitful for the committee. they get to say that on a question, she gray, and the calling the place where donald trump grabbed women they felt sick. they have two witnesses to ivanka's sickness, feeling revolted on her father's conduct to the vice president and the dicey nature of the vice president's security. it was delivered in almost

monotone testimony, but he came a lot closer than any of us understood to real, physical peril, jake. >> yeah. i was shocked by that. they said he was within 40 feet of the rioters and pete aguilar who was questioning the pence witnesses and it was basically the distance from him to them. again, i do feel as if these series of hearings has brought to light or brought to the surface a little bit more about just how at risk we were that day in the capitol of having something cataclysmic happen, and i mean, i still walk the halls every day and when i see the videos of people breaking in. when you see them breaking in on the first floor of the senate, that is feet from the offices of several, very prominent senators. just down a flight of stairs

from mitch mcconnell's office and chuck schumer's office. this is very, very close to some of the most powerful people in the country. i just shudder thinking what if they'd gotten a hold of the ballots and i assume they'll get into this in the coming day, but it's stunning to listen to. >> let's preview of what we'll hear this week. it is -- and i actually had brad raffensperger on the show and i asked him if he would testify and i got a lot of humna-humna. and we have testimony how someone would get shot and he saw it happening in his state with the rumors and the innuendo and the false claims of election fraud in a state, georgia got audited three times and there was none. >> and to jake's point, we have also -- so, first of all, this is where the doj and the committee have actually linked a

bit because we have a confidential informant saying we would have torn him limb from limb if the 40 feet had been breached, but in terms of tomorrow, we already know what he's going to say because we've got the greatest piece of evidence that makes every prosecutor jump for joy and an audiotape and why do we have it? because raffensperger knew he was dishonest and lordy, lordy, was there a tape and it's an hour long and he passed him calmly and there's just one problem, mr. president. you don't have a vote. it's all a lie,et set r, et cetera, and he's there not withstanding trump's best efforts a re-election campaign. so this is all what we're all in all missing, but i want to say to jake's point, it's indispensable to have this historical narrative, separate and apart from criminal

accountability and here we have the golden ticket of an audiotape and if you see fulton county which is what people expected, that tape will be played again, again and once again at closing. >> i try not to give a lot of homework at this show, and i don't ask people to listen to the whole thing. it's just stunning. >> david jolly, the other part that is in focus tomorrow is the fake electors plot. we were shocked and horrified by the georgia call. the fake electors plot came out from the states. i do remember contemporaneous reporting of trump strong arming officials like states like michigan and inviting them to the white house and i don't think it was crystal clear what they were doing. it turns out the fake electors were the how they got to the eastman plot which was the what?

the coup. talk about the opportunity to educate the whole country on what is for most people the most opaque part of the coup plot? >> i think this is where the committee will work hard to the that the knew they were engagement in corruption and fraud. i believe you had kellyanne conway, and i apologize if it wasn't her, these are not alternative objectives, what the committee will democrat straight, no. it was political malpractice and that leads us to something that jake middle which means there are multiple spectrums on which we are digesting this and i think what the committee is doing is on the political spectrum. the american people are learning facts about the former president and the people who enabled him and the democrats are not trying

to play politics. they're laying this out there to allow the nation to make a political judgment, but then there sits the legal spectrum that sits squarely in the department of justice and we're headed toward a cliffhanger here in which the j-6 committee wraps their hearings and the nation waits to hear is merrick garland going to indict the former president of the united states and after what we have seen through the j-6 committee i think there will be a lot of americans that are expecting the department of justice to indict the former president, and if it does not, there are a lot of americans that will say does the you la apply to pem that occupy the highest office of the land because it does sure that rump and his team.

>> it will take one hell of a press conference to convince the american people why not, and i also think there are questions going to the united states of the united states though he stays at arm's length than he should at the department of justice. merrick garland was his nominee. did joe biden nominate the right attorney general? there will be a lot of questions, but i do think merrick garland is going to have to ultimately have to wrestle with the fact that the j-6 committee has set out a case that lace out culpability of the president of the united states. >> harry litman, i want to hear more of the evidence that they'll marshal before you answer. the post writeses that the trump campaign documents give an inside look at the fake elector plan. at the time, it was slap bashed and internal campaign memos and emails reveal that the convening of the fake electors was a much more concerted strategy to give

mike pence a reason to declare the outcome of the election when he was to preside over the counting of the electoral college votes. it showed trump's team pushed ahead and pushed electors to meet and the alternate trump slates even as trump lawyers acknowledged they did not have legal validity and they have not taken into state laws. if you look at everything else that we've seen, isn't this alone enough to open a criminal investigation into the ex-president? >> it's already been opened, and i think it will, in fact, culminate with him. one point to follow up on what david said. he said trump and team. i think we're going see and it's important to see other people who are indicted here. what's my view on trump? i've come to the view that the worst thing other than prosecuting thing web not prosecuting him, and i think the

evidence is very strong here and on two other counts. i do want to say the converse, though, and i've priten about this and the account believity of trumpists and indeed t could be a really royal situation if you continue to have the kind of support you have for trump now, but it is e voeding andy now thinkie ng the rule of law would be bigger than the set of interests that you can classify of what's in the best interest of the country. i think he needs to go forward. >> it is just the debate that is happening all over the place. jake sherman, do you want to get in a little bit? do you have an opinion? i want to respect your journalistic prerogatives. >> it's not something they have a firm view on one way or the

other. i do think, can i can say from my reporting there are a lot of people with a lot of questions politically of what it would mean if a sitting president investigated a form are president. that's not to say they will or they should or should not, but i can tell you on capitol hill the view is far from unanimous about whether they should, should not or will or will not. >> i know in the ex-presidents' club they view it as a barrier to entry, you haven't experienced this until you're choosing between a horrible choice and a more horrible choice. thank you so much for starting us off today. when we come back, the big lie is now the mainstream party platform for republicans in texas, rejecting president joe biden as the winner of the 2020 election and therefore the president. donald trump's lies about the election show no signs of fading there. plus also in texas, republicans there rebuking those lawmakers trying to pass gun safety

legislation and defending their need to be able to buy arms quickly in case of what they say could be emergency riots and to that point, later in the program january 6th committee member adam kinzinger warns of more vile tones come. how that factors into the decision to prosecute an ex-president when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. er a quick break. don't go anywhere. i'm a momma 24/7. seriously with the marker? i'm a bit of a foodie. perfect. but not much of a chef. yes! ♪ wayfair you've got just what i need. ♪

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we're coming for you mr. gru! minions assemble! this puny little child thinks he can be a villain? i am pretty despicable. >> over the weekend, thousands of texas republicans declared such hateful anti-gay, anti-women's rights and anti-women's safety that they

managed to out maga themselves. the delegates at the three-day convention approved a resolution rejecting the certification of the presidential election, declaring that president joe biden was, quote, not legitimately elected and they public le declared their support for texas's self-sovereignty, and texas' right to secede from the united states of america ask for the state legislature to appoint u.s. senators. >> tim miller, writer at large, and the founder of the country over party. matt dowd is a texan. texas wants to secede and is this the time that we say to the alt-right in texas, okay? >> is this for me, the texan? >> yeah. [ laughter ] >> yeah. what i'd like to say and i was

listening to the previous conversation and why these things are so connected i think is because what happened in texas was it wasn't just a stampede of 5,000 crazy longhorns at the georgia convention center -- the george r. brown convention center in texas, theying showing in texas that if we don't hold accountable as democracy is dismantled, texas is showing what they're going to do if that happens, if democracy is dismantled, this is what happens, and it's full. it's vivid and clear in this. this idea of seceding, they asked for a referendum at a legislature and it's a crazy sect of people and it would be stupid for the republicans to do that. there are 40 electoral votes and they have a plus 13 and they have two senators and let's make america democratic and we'll

succeed and texas gets more federal there ares than it gets in tax there ares and they don't add that in the way of this, but to me it's a complete signal of this has nothing any more to do with donald trump. the crazy has been let loose. this is who the republican is fundamentally, there are a few exceptions as we've talked about numerous times. they are the unicorns in the republican party, but texas is showing if you don't hold january 6th accountable and we don't hold the republicans accountable in the fall, texas is showing this is what they want america to look like. >> i think there's another thing about it that's really important nationally for not just democrats, but republicans who wrestle with their own party's anti-democratic impulses. it's not hyperbole to call the republican party sort of in bed with autocratic practices and to

describe the republican party's thought leaders as autocrats in waiting and the piece of it that i think is revealing and the piece that should be ominous when you look at how voter integrity laws which are voter suppression laws masquerading as election security laws, just ask bill barr, the texas gop platform is insane. this is paul wadman of "the washington post," the thing that jufrmd out was the state-level electoral college eliminating one person, one vote so that the votes of white rural voters would cut more. this is what they shut down to jasmine crockett and others, but this mainstreaming of anti-democratic practices and not just rhetoric is for me one of the more ominous things that happened for me, tim. >> there is a lot of ominous

down here and such is texas and more purple states if you look at wisconsin, in the way they gerrymander the state legislature, excuse me is not at all akin to watt breakdown should be of a 50/50 state and that's why if the republican governor, despite being a purple state that joe biden won with extreme policies on a range of issues. this is definitely a concern across the country and not just in texas. the other ominous part of the texas thing to me is just how in bed the people that run the state of texas are with these activists. they're completely simpatico and it's a tale as old as time and we should have seen this when it was a red state convention and john mccain, though, is for immigration reform and cap and

trade. so there's this distance between the candidates and the activists and that should have been a red flag for us, but that doesn't exist anymore and greg abbot and ken paxton are extreme and so when the texas legislature says that being gay is abnormal and the texas government says teachers who talk about their same-sex relationships and their gay families in class can be punished and they already are in certain school districts in texas, that is the real ominous part for me. the extreme stuff is being operationalized by the actual people in charge in texas and that cannot get lost here. this is not just a few, random, extreme crazy activists. >> matt, this is my question on vigilante enforcement of an anti-abortion, a ban on all abortions in the state of texas on the -- on the sort of codifying the platform the anti-gay rhetoric. it is not anything we've seen really in modern political

discourse and to tim's point, mainstreamed. why don't texas business leaders reject these republican politicians. how can you recruit workers to work in a state like texas? >> i think a number of business leaders have gone out of their way and not enough, obviously, to stand up. i think there are as many fortune 500 companies in texas as there is in new york these days. texas is the second wealthiest state in the country. it would be an economy of texas would be ninth in the world. i think they just haven't stepped up, and i think every time, i think it's this error that people keep making which is first, it's oh, donald trump, he's not going to represent and then he gets elected. oh, everybody else isn't like donald trump and the adults in the republican party will take care of it, they don't take care

of it. oh, if we get past this x, y and z we'll be okay, and whoever it is, whether it's american airlines and the oil companies or whatever, i think this idea that these republicans like, they're taking care of us right now, every sign should point to them that every time they think they're a friend they're coming for you next. i mean, the first people in line are all of the traditionally -- historically discriminated against groups, they'll take those down the list and as governor desantis has shown he's willing to go after disney. he's willing to go after the sports stadiums. he's willing to go after whatever, and i think the business community who obviously they have to play ball because it's a completely red state. there's not a single democrat elected statewide, i think they could and have unease about it. they think they can get past this and then it will be okay. what they don't realize is at a convention in texas this week should show, it's only going to get worse. >> right. >> it's only going to get worse.

>> tim and matt are sticking around, perhaps some progress has been made on gun safety legislation even as republicans in texas are ramping up the pressure on one of their own for participating. senator john cornyn. that story's next. cornyn. that story's next. what's the #1 retinol brand used most by dermatologists? it's neutrogena® rapid wrinkle repair® smooths the look of fine lines in 1-week, deep wrinkles in 4. so you can kiss wrinkles goodbye! neutrogena® hey lily, i need a new wireless plan for my business, but all my employees need something different. oh, we can help with that. okay, imagine this. your mover, rob, he's on the scene and needs a plan with a mobile hotspot. we cut to downtown, your sales rep lisa has to send some files, like asap! so basically i can pick the right plan for each employee. yeah i should've just led with that. with at&t business. you can pick the best plan for each employee

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november been thank you. god bless you and may god continue to bless our great state of texas. [ cheering ] ♪♪ so in case it wasn't clear on your screens, that was texas senate republican jon cornyn speaking and the crowd booing. booing senator jon cornyn, the ultra-conservative republican for his work in bipartisan gun safety legislation talks. nbc news has learned that we could see the full text of that bill as early as today after two sticking points over the weekend. the bipartisan group votes for a full senate vote and they promise will save thousands of lives. meanwhile texas republicans went on to officially rebuke senator cornyn and most other republicans who participated in these negotiations.

from the texas tribune, quote, the party voted on saturday by 5100 convention delegates would argue that those under 21 would most likely need to defend themselves and would need to quickly buy guns in emergency such as riots. it would say that red flag laws violate the due process laws of people that haven't been convicted of a crime. we are back with tim and matt. matt dowd, i spoke to a gun safety activist this morning, and she was really heartened by this bipartisan progress, and sort of dismayed that the conversation is trapped where it always is, and as the gun violence night after night after night and mass shootings seem to come at a clip we've never seen before, accelerate, the language and the debate is almost frozen in time, and i wonder if you think that the gun safety

coalition, which isn't just democratic. it's democrats and republicans. it's gun owners and people who have never touched a gun before, if it needs to adopt some harsher political tactics and talk about what republicans are for. if you take what they are for in texas it's for arming would-be mass shooters. it's for arming people with histories of violence and mental illness. where do you think the debate around guns gets it wrong? >> in multiple places. i can go through a list of it. the first place is there's not a divide in america on this issue at all, and i know you saw the latest fox news poll which came out this weekend. they tested all of the different gun reform things in a fox news poll and every single one is overwhelmingly supported by all people including all gun owners, including gun owners. they broke out gun owners. gun owners are for universal

background checks and gun owners are for raising the age from 18 to 21 and they're for all those things and so the divide doesn't exist in america, and it exists in the small group of people and the 5,000 people in houston. texas is 29 million people. those 5,000 people don't represent the 29 million, but the way we are politics is divided in such a way, our leadership, the people are divided and the republicans have gone way off bans on this, so that's one. two is i think gun owners like myself, but many, we need to be on the front line of this fight. so any time anybody says you don't understand guns or you don't care about guns you can't confront, so i think gun owners need to be a huge part of a front facing part of this coalition on gun reform in the midst of this, and third, i think is the democratic party needs to start running on this issue as a top tier issue and not as an issue and they'll say

a lot of things and run on it as a cultural -- a culture of life issue and run on it as of life, liberty. and the pursuit of happiness issue and run on it full boar viscerally and all those things and use gun owners who are for this, two of this thirds of gun owners are for these things as a part of the coalition. >> tim, it is a thing that could be a variable in the upcoming midterm elections. i think that the horror of daily nightly gun violence in america coupled with the horrific mass shootings that as i said before, come at a clip that we've never witnessed before that the heinous, racist massacre in buffalo, the hideous school shooting in uvalde, and it doesn't ever stop. i mean, if the shoe were on the

other foot and the other party were for keeping weapons of war in the hands of people who are unstable or unfit or couldn't adopt a dog from any aspca chapter in the united states of america there would be political hell to pay. >> yeah. we saw what happened when the shoe was on the other foot with international terrorism, right? muslim extremist terrorism and we saw what democrats did to republicans who didn't follow every precaution and we know what republicans would do. i hope that the ten republicans can survive what is coming from fox prime time or what is coming from other republican activist groups like we saw in texas and that they can pass some important and incremental reform, and i think good on chris murphy and the democrats who were willing to sacrifice a lot to come to the table that helps at least on the margins

and then that is when we get to what matt dowd is talking about and hopefully the ten republicans can get this passed and joe biden can find it. this doesn't end there. this would be a failure if the democrats allow it to end there and they need to wage a political campaign. i mentioned this before, but they took out, cornyn took out the 21 age limit out of this bill which would have had a direct impact on both buffalo and uvalde. those kids both bought the guns legally which shouldn't be the case. they can't buy a white claw legally. if there were one or two other popular provisions after this gets passed and that should be a real campaign issue into the fall and it's one where they wedge the republican coalition. >> matt, there is a blur of information before people, and there is very real despair around the cost of everything in life, but it does feel like

we're living through maybe a slow motion shifting in what people are talking about. do you see it that way or what do you think about this moment? >> i think that you hit on the sort of psychic thing of america today which is the combination of the aftermath of covid. there's this great sense of trauma and great sense of loss and it's coupled with covid, gun shootings and even in the economy in all of this and now they're con fronted in the january 6th public hearings with the full frontal assault on our democracy by a former president, then president of the united states and all of his enablers in congress that went along with this, and so i do think we're at a pivotal moment here that you can -- you can, democrats have to go to a thing where they basically throw out their traditional old playbook saying here's my 20 positions on domestic policy issues and here's where they are and basically say this is a race for

the heart and soul of america and who we are, right now, right here, just as much as it was during the civil war and just as much as it was during the revolutionary war. we are in for the fight for the heart and soul of america and i'll be happy to talk about the other issues, but that's not what this fight is about, and why they have to not be so inclined and it is to talk about these different things and focus on what the fight is about today which is about who we are as americans and whether or not our humanity at this time can survive. >> nothing less than that. tim miller, thank you so much for spending some time with us today. up next for us, ukrainian president zelenskyy warning this can again prove to be an incredibly consequential week with the war in russia with putin intensifying the fighting in the east. those details next. east. those details next

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stoltenberg also said the cost of war is high, but the price of letting moscow achieve its military goals is even greater. let's bring into our conversation nbc news correspondent ali arouzi live in kyiv, ukraine. i know president zelenskyy has been traveling all over the country. i heard he's just back from odesa in the south where we don't focus quite as much as we should here but where things are really very difficult as well. >> reporter: that's right, nicole. look, the fighting on the east, the luhansk area, is incredibly intense now. the military governor of the luhansk area said that the russians have flooded in an enormous amount of reserves from around the country and the battle for the luhansk area is pivotal to this entire war and they're trying to do everything they can to get is that area. he's saying that the ukrainians are only in control now of the azov chemical plant where several hundred civilians have hungered down in the bunkers there because they're very well

protected but the russians have throwing everything they have at that place. we spoke to a soldier who's fighting on the front line there. he says the shelling, the missile strikes don't stop there. morning, noon, and night, they're getting shelled. they can't sleep because the shelling is so heavy there and they're putting up a really heavy fight but again, he said what we are hearing over and over again in this country, without western military aid flowing in at a very intense level, they're not going to be able to hold on to that area because they're outnumbered and outgunned by the russians. and the fear there also, nicole, is that if they take severodonetsk and its twin city, lysyshansk, that's on a hill and the terrain in ukraine becomes very flat after that and will allow the russian tanks to roll westward a lot more easily if that's their objective and ask anybody here, they'll tell you that's definitely their objective. they want the whole country. >> there's some reporting in "the new york times" about the treatment of ukrainian civilians

and some filtration camps. we haven't heard as much lately about the toll the war has taken on the civilian population. what's your understanding of the latest? >> reporter: it's taking an enormous toll on the situation. we talk about ukraine war fatigue in the west. there's no fatigue like the people are having in this country. they are tired after almost 120 days of relentless war. the stories you hear that civilians are suffering is just unconscionable. the soldier we spoke to in severodonetsk said there are dead bodies all over the street. the other day we went to a hospital that's treating both civilians and soldiers for trauma in the war. we spoke to this young soldier, maybe 21 years old. he told us these horrifying stories of civilians being tied on tanks so the russians could use them as pillows and that's just the tip of the iceberg of stories you hear here. it's really horrifying, all the accounts you hear. >> ali, i feel like we haven't

paid enough attention here in the states. thank you for joining us today. please stay safe. up next for us, a warning from one of the republicans on the january 6th committee on the stakes of not holding an ex-president accountable. more headlines and that conversation after a quick break. headlines and that conversation after a quick break. operations of travel - they made the switch to t-mobile. our 5g has alaska airlines and their customers covered, from major hubs to remote destinations. with 5g coverage ready now. for the demands of today and the future, t-mobile's network powers alaska airlines as they deliver next-level care for all customers. 5g ready now. that's how unconventional thinking is better for business. every year we try to exercise more, to be more social,

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♪♪ if you truly believe the deep state owned the election and that democracy was stolen and the election was stolen, that's the most logical outcome. there is violence in the future. i'm going to tell you. and until we get a grip on telling people the truth, we can't expect any differently. >> wow. hi, everyone, it's 5:00 in new

york. the stakes could not be higher for the january 6th select committee as it lays out the truth for the american people about what happened in the lead-up to the deadly insurrection on january 6th. because as you just heard from one of the two republicans who sit on that panel, congressman adam kinzinger, if truth cannot be agreed upon, we will continue to be a nation where violence against perceived enemies persists. congressman kinzinger just recently the recipient of a vile and disturbing letter addressed to his wife. that letter threatens that he and his wife and his 5-month-old baby will be executed. kinzinger says the letter was sent to him in the mail from his local area. threats of violence against those who go against donald trump and his big lies are tragically not new. we heard in last monday's hearing about the threats former philadelphia city commissioner al schmidt faced for not going along with donald trump's lies about voter fraud there. over the last year, on this program, we have covered the growing numbers of threats against truth tellers,

extensively. "washington post" noting that last year, it tracked how election administrators in at least 17 states received threats of violence in the months after the january 6th attack, often sparked directly from comments from donald trump. which brings us to the urgent and crucial need to hold the ex-president and his allies to account. the need for those who fomented violence with their lies to face consequences. as the january 6th committee lays out, donald trump's potential criminal exposure and its public hearings this month, the pressure on the justice department, who has the power to prosecute the ex-president, is growing. "new york times" essentially spells out what doj would have to prove. a checklist, if you will. "if the justice department were to bring a case against trump, prosecutors would face the challenge of showing that he knew or should have known that his position was based on assertions about widespread election fraud that were false. or that his attempt to block the

congressional certification of the outcome was illegal." this comes as the new abc news ipsos poll finds nearly 60% of people believe trump should be charged with a crime for his role in provoking violence on january 6th. this is where we start the hour with some of our most favorite reporters and friends. frank figliuzzi is here, former fbi assistant director for counterintelligence. with us at the table, mike schmidt, "new york times" washington correspondent is here and joyce vance is here, former u.s. attorney, now a law professor at the university of alabama. they're all msnbc contributors. i want to get into the legal questions before really not all of us but really before the justice department but i don't want to skip over adam kinzinger's death threat and threats for his wife and 5-month-old child. frank, i feel like you are -- what was that movie with mel gibson, conspiracy theory, sounding the alarm for months and months and months, and we're reaping what we've sown, but i wonder if you see any off ramps

for us as country that now seems to be normalizing threats of political violence. >> i hate to be the skunk at the garden party, as they say. >> i set you up to be the skunk. >> i'll edit adam kinzinger's statement just slightly, which is, there's violence in the present. it's only going to get worse in the future. off-ramps involve the good news that you just said. 60% of americans think that the facts are there, justice department should prosecute the former president. it's damned if you do, damned if you don't, however. if they do the right thing, do their job at justice, they'll still be some bumps. there's no question about it. but if they don't, the violence gets even worse and we erode all credibility in the department of

justice if they find significant facts to charge there. the majority is with the right side here. it's a lesson, nicole, in how few people it takes to actually get really into a threatening environment for all of us, including a 5-month-old child. >> because we started here, i'm going to show you this, frank. this is republican senate candidate eric greitens, the former governor of missouri, and he put up an ad. it's so vile. i'm not going to play it, but i just want to give people a sense of what it was. it shows him, an armed -- i don't know, accomplices, i guess, in tactical gear, and it says they're going rino hunting. rino, a derogatory term for anti-trump republicans. i think it actually means republicans in name only. trump uses it liberally back when he used to tweet. and the text of the ad was, "get a rino permit. there's no bagging limit, no tagging limit, and it doesn't

expire until we save our country." i don't hunt but i think there's no limit to the number you can kill and i don't know what no tagging means. these allusions to killing and hunting republicans in name only, frank, are coming at a time when someone running to be a member of the united states senate must know that there is an existing, i think, thrice-renewed threat of domestic violent extremism tied to election conspiracy lies. >> yeah, look, this is about accountability. interesting things happening. so, i've learned that the fbi's received multiple complaints to its public tip line about this posting. twitter, you may have seen, also has now attached an advisory to it. they've decided -- it's interesting, because he's running for office, they decided to keep it up so that people can see what he is up to and discuss it. it did, they say, clearly violate their policy against

advocating for violence, but there's got to be accountability. there's got to be accountability for whoever sent the threat to adam kinzinger and i'm sure the fbi and the capitol police are working it. that person, if found, should be paraded around as an example of what not to do in a civil society and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law and a candidate running for senate who advocates hunting people down and killing them because he doesn't agree with their political ideology should not win office, and if possible, should be charged. >> so, it's against this backdrop of this is who we are, this is our country right now, for a variety of reasons. but it comes, this question of accountability, in this really -- you can feel the pressure building on doj. you ask your colleagues are out with some new reporting on sort of the bar that has to be met to get us from what we're all seeing and i think find pretty provocative from the 1/6 public phase of their committee's ticket to a criminal

prosecution. >> the committee last week was able to move the ball, certainly they have been able to move the ball in the public narrative, but in terms of what could be evidence that would be at the justice department's disposal for a prosecution, they now have -- we now know, i mean, the evidence existed, we just know about it now, they now have the vice president's lawyer saying that the president of the united states had been told that the scheme he was undertaking was wrongful, was -- had no basis to it. and in terms of showing that trump was heading down a path that he knew was not the right thing, is a powerful piece of evidence that they could use to gain a conviction. does that mean that they need all the elements and all the evidence exists? we certainly don't know. we don't know all the evidence. but you know, for the, you know, for people that have been watching this, that was new, and

it added to the pile of evidence that already exists in terms of what is there that the justice department will, you know, if they ultimately do look at, we still don't know if they are looking at, if they have to make a decision about what to do about trump. >> is it a fair description of how the 1/6 committee is communicating to say that they are presenting their evidence with an eye toward answering these questions? i mean, you lay out that trump would have to know that he had actually lost and willfully lied about the results. they certainly have, and your story goes through the pieces of evidence, all his campaign numbers guy, which is the guy you call when you're losing, i've been there. they bring out his lawyer, bill stepien. they show that his daughter, ivanka trump, believed bill barr, that there was no widespread fraud that resulted in a bad result on election night. do you think that the 1/6 committee is presenting its new evidence with an eye toward meeting these standards? >> i think that the committee has come at this january 6th

differently than the previous impeachment and the first impeachment. and whatever congress tried to do after mueller. and we're starting to see -- it just looks different. >> yeah. >> they're playing -- >> jake sherman just said the same thing. he's never seen something this tight and this sort of specific and this show, don't tell. he's never seen a congressional hearing like this. >> and some of the thought about why that is, is that when the investigators were staffed, when they were staffing up on this committee, they hired several former federal prosecutors, like the person sitting next to me on my left. >> explains a lot. >> and it wasn't run, you know -- it wasn't staffed up with all people that were veterans of capitol hill. and they made a decision to record these interviews in ways that i hadn't seen before. i covered the benghazi committee.

the benghazi committee did have a very dramatic public hearing where hillary clinton testified but there was no clips of depositions that were played. in the end, it was a dry report with different members of the far-right caucus of the house out talking about it. so, they've been able to gain attention and garner attention even though, from those of us who have been following every little incremental thing, not everything is new as it may look to the average person, but they have been able to make it appear like a new narrative and have some freshness to it. and that has just been much more successful than the previous investigations that we have seen of trump on capitol hill. >> one of the things -- to mike's point about polling moving, isle, it's the biggest, i think, swing in polling, not just since he left but around any public phase of an investigation into donald trump.

and some of that is no one criticizing him -- i mean, everyone's either related to him or had walk-in privileges to the oval office. they were the most senior advisors. they were family members. they were cabinet officials. >> you know, everyone who's hearing this evidence, who's listening and following along with the committee hearings is learning information that is clearly causing people to be persuaded about the former spotlight's misconduct and criminality. i say everyone who's listening, because i don't live in new york or washington, d.c., and where i live, a lot of people not only aren't watching, they're just not aware that these hearings are taking place, and that's replicated across the country. >> sure. >> in red states and other places. the committee still faces that challenge. but because, as mike says, this has been different and has been extremely compelling, that word does seem to be spreading, and more people seem to be focusing on these issues, and so nicole, i just want to paint with a broad brush and say when we look

for accountability here, a big part of that comes from the justice department. uniquely capable of prosecuting a president and perhaps preventing him from running again if the outcome is successful. but also a big part of this hearing is about persuading the jury of public opinion. >> right. >> because ultimately, it was voters who stopped trump in 2020. it wasn't anyone else. it was us the at the polls. that's the job, again, this year in the midterms and in 2024, and that may be where the committee's work is the most powerful. >> well, i think frank figliuzzi, by liz cheney's public pronouncements, trump has done so much damage in her view, her public pronouncements, her republican colleagues, people like jim jordan, kevin mccarthy, have done so much damage by simply -- and adam kinzinger has been quite forceful in his public comments as well. that the damage that the mccarthys and the mcconnells of the world have done by not refuting donald trump's lies at the time they were taking hold may not be a bell that can be

unrung. when you look at deradicalization, if that's the step that has to take place between the threat of violence and that threat going away, what are the prospects of that happening in our country right now? >> it's a long road ahead, and it is indeed a process of deradicalization, which takes time, and most successful deradicalization efforts involve building back trust and relationship and offering people other alternatives, showing them repeatedly the truth and the facts, so we're at the very beginning of this journey. if the journey has begun at all. let's remind ourselves that there's a candidate running for governor of michigan, a republican candidate, who was just recently arrested by the fbi. he's leading the polls in michigan. so, we're a long way from people acknowledging that we've got a serious problem, a serious threat to our democracy.

are we looking at the possibility that we could see donald trump indicted, still run, and still perhaps run successfully? is that something we're actually going to have to contemplate? >> that's incredible. that's incredible. mike, do you and your colleagues have any visibility into what the debate is or if there is one inside doj? >> look, the, you know, no one has reported on there being an investigation that's specifically looking at trump. joyce and i were talking about this before we came on, and she made a point that i hadn't thought of. imagine if the justice department charged trump, they went to trial, and they lost. what would the implications of that be? >> we know -- he's been basically put on trial in the senate twice. >> yeah, but what if he went to -- if they went to court, if he was indicted criminally, and he was, you know, acquitted? by a jury. what would that mean? the fallout from that would be

enormous. >> so is that how they'll decide? they will not make a decision about donald trump unless they're positive they can win? is that the same way they make every charging decision? >> i don't think that that's the standard. federal prosecutors in every case use a document called the federal principles of prosecution to decide when to indict. and it essentially says, if you've got sufficient evidence to obtain a conviction, and to sustain it on appeal, that means, no defenses, you know, no, in this case, first amendment argument, no legal arguments, and if it's in the national interest to bring the case and you can't achieve the goals of the criminal justice system through any other means, a state prosecution or some sort of administrative action, then you should go ahead and indict. and it's that back end that's messy in a funny way. you know, the front end, deciding if you have evidence and if it's good enough evidence, prosecutors might differ as they sit around a table, but they'll usually reach some form of agreement or someone in charge will say, okay, i'm going to come down

here. it's tough in this case to look at the evidence and say that you're not going to prosecute if the evidence isn't strong. it would be different if trump had disappeared from public life, but he's still acting the king maker in republican politics. he says he's going to run again, and he continues to shred the constitution. you all heard the comments over the weekend, right? mike pence didn't have the courage to do the right thing. all that puts a unique piece of pressure on doj to consider all those factors. it's still the same consideration. doj has to commit to looking at this case like they would at any other going through the same process and making a decision, go or no go, as mike says, if they're, in fact, looking at it. which we don't know. >> explain the national -- you said something about a national interest or the interest of the country. explain what is that, and what defines that? what does that mean? >> i was hoping that you would let me gloss over that.

it's a little bit nebulous. it usually comes up in a different posture. it usually looks something like, is that significant enough case that federal prosecutors should be fooling around with it? maybe this should be a state case, not a federal felony. well, here, if you look at it through that same lens, why, yes, this is a case that involves the national interest. we're talking about elections and a president who wanted to, you know, undercut them. i can't imagine anything that's more in the national interest. but you could look at that question differently. you could possibly consider what is this do in a country that's already hypercharged, and we know that merrick garland does not want to be the match that sets the powder keg on fire. >> i mean, i think, frank, you would argue that the country's already burning, and i think jim clyburn has elevated a question -- put that question the other way. what does it say to the country if we have a man who robert mueller found committed six acts of criminal obstruction of justice, robert mueller came out famously said, if i could say he

hadn't broken the law, i would. it basically meant, he's a crook, we're just not going to charge him. take it the other way. i think congressman clyburn has elevated it now. people are just as angry that one man seems to be above the law, and that's donald trump. >> yeah, this is the rub, as both mike and joyce are saying. this national interest decision. and it is going to be perhaps the hardest decision faced by an attorney general, certainly that i can recall, to prosecute a former president, and you're damned if you do, damned if you don't, but i say when you're facing that kind of agonizing dilemma, do your job. do your job. we've learned what happens from, for example, jim comey, not very long ago, deciding to overreach and actually move his job across the street to the department of justice and make a prosecutive decision as fbi director. supposed to make an

investigative decision and he announces, of course, famously, at a press conference, no reasonable prosecutor would charge hillary clinton. he wasn't that reasonable prosecutor. he was the investigator, and what was the damage done to the reputation and perception and credibility of the fbi? it was at that instant perceived as political in nature, whether it was or not, whether he had very good faith to just try to do the right thing, it damaged the credibility of an institution. imagine that on steroids with the department of justice deciding, you know, this is a real tough thing here, we're going to make a call that it's not right for the nation. well, i say, you've got to do what the evidence and facts and law dictate, and do your job if you have those evidence facts. >> there's just nothing weightier. you've all made my brain hurt. and interestingly, this does not fall on squarely partisan lines. robert come stock was engaging with another prominent conservative about this very question and making the

arguments you're making. it's just fascinating. thank you all for starting us off. joyce sticks around. after the break for us, two critical decisions from the supreme court are expected really any day now. one major potential departure from the strourt supreme court tradition. plus, two of our friends, charles blow, and eddie glaude will be our guests on juneteenth for some straight talk about how far this country has come or not since black lives matter protests filled the streets all across our country two summers ago. and again, how much farther we need to travel. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. ite house" s after a quick break. while wayfair is installing your new refrigerator and hauling away your old one. you're binging the latest true crime drama. while the new double oven you financed is taking care of dinner and desert. you're remembering how to tie a windsor. and while your washer is getting out those grass stains. you're practicing for the big leagues!

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so, the supreme court term is just weeks away from being over. opinions in two controversial cases could come as soon as tomorrow. the court still has yet to rule on a mississippi case which could overturn the right to an abortion in almost half of the states and on a new york gun law that could make it easier to carry a loaded firearm in public, the very moment when the majority of all americans are demanding that the government do more to curb gun violence. adam of the "new york times" writes, in the "times," noting that these anticipated rulings would be a complete departure from the tradition of the court. "the supreme court that has long been said seldom gets very far out of step with public opinion. the court is about to test that conventional wisdom." joining our conversation, legal correspondent and senior editor for slate, also the host of the amicus podcast.

joyce is still with us. dalia, i keep thinking about the load on the country right now. there is economic anxiety, if you're paying attention to the hearings, joyce makes a good point that that isn't all americans but based on tv ratings, a whole bunch of people are and the existential threats of political violence and democracy. both of these decisions carry not just major policy and legal implications for the country but massive emotional tolls for people on the other side of where these decisions are expected to land. let's take them one at a time. what is your sense of where the court is heading, not just based on a leaked opinion, but some of the analysis about a possible roberts compromise as a hail mary? >> yeah, i think on the dobbs case, on the abortion case, even if we hadn't had that may leak, it was very clear just from watching oral arguments that this is where the winds were blowing and in fact, i think the

leak more or less just confirmed what we sensed in oral argument, which is that there was one justice, john roberts, the chief justice, who was trying to muster enthusiasm for this 15-week compromise, not ending roe altogether but finding that the viability line could move. there were zero other justices who were interested in that compromise project. both at oral argument and in the dobbs case and so while i think we're hearing whispers this weekend that maybe he could pick off brett kavanaugh and do something that isn't quite as radical as the alito draft in the dobbs leak, my sense is that this is still going to be very much five justices who want to overturn roe and as you said, kind of the hail mary conversation about john roberts doing something that i'm not sure he has the authority or the power or the persuasive ability to do. >> dalia, i think it's always worth asking this question.

how did we get here when every one of these justices affirmed in their senate confirmation hearings that they were for respecting precedent when it came to roe? >> well, i mean, i think the short answer is, we all knew that donald trump had certainly of his three nominees that he was explicitly putting them on the court because they were going to overturn roe, and so at that point, the question was, who's lying, donald trump or the nominees at their hearings? so i don't think anybody heard them say what they were saying at their confirmation hearings, whether they said, i'm for stare decisis and precedent or i think roe was fundamentally sound and shouldn't be overturned. we know that's part of the kabuki that you do to get confirmed. i guess the more interesting question to me is, how did we not see that when donald trump promised us three nominees that were going to do that, how did we not see it coming when they, in fact, are doing it? >> well, and the kabuki comes at

a really high cost. fewer people trust the united states supreme court, i think, than trust most media institutions. the court's approval rating is lower than it was in 2000 after many democrats thought it decided a presidential election. the court's approval rating has dropped 20 points, i think, in 20 years. >> it is ironic that the court is about to release an opinion, which if that leaked draft bears any semblance to the final version, runs contrary to the views of a large number of americans. i think as many -- >> 63%. >> agree, right? as on any issue. and that's disturbing if you're concerned about the integrity of institutions, and not to be prof sorrial, but i'll just say, we don't send our easy cased to the supreme court. we send the cases that can't be resolved in civil vote there. abortion has persistently plagued this country despite the views of folks who don't like

the government but who have wanted government to play an outsized role in women's decisions in this area, and now that's poised to become the law of the land, and it will further damage the institution's integrity at the same time we're all debating whether or not ginni thomas, the wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas, was having improper communications with folks and whether the justice sat on cases he should have recused from. none of this is a good look for the supreme court. >> ginni thomas has been invited to come share her side of the story. dahlia, i want to ask you if it bears on the chief justice's mind or anyone on the court's mind that not just 63% of all americans support roe as it is, and leaving it as the law of the land, but what is likely to happen in these state bans, what will happen. the state bans have already been written. has the opposition of 93% of americans. 93% of americans oppose abortion bans that ban all abortions even in the case of the life of the mother. 85% of all americans oppose an

abortion ban that doesn't permit an abortion for a victim of rape or incest. the court is about to green light things that have not just majority but 85% to 93% of the american people in opposition. >> yeah, i mean, you mentioned that adam story that tries to parse this question of how far can the court stray from public opinion? one of the things he notes in the piece, and i think we forget, is that for a long, long time, the median justice at the court, when it was sandra day o'connor, anthony kennedy, was more or less aligned with where the bulk of public opinion was. that was just kind of by happenstance. but it meant that that deciding vote for the last, you know, our kind of recent memory was always toggling against, what would be way outside what public opinion could tolerate. the median volt now is brett kavanaugh, who is so far to the right, you know, of either kennedy or o'connor, that that's

part of the question, is the center of the court is completely misaligned with what public opinion is. and i guess the only other point is, i think that this is the court that is not really afraid of electoral outcomes anymore because this is the court that makes it harder to vote every year. >> wow. wow. that's a mic drop last word there from dahlia. thank you so much. joyce vance, thank you for sticking around. up next for us, what today's federal holiday celebrating juneteenth suggests about the changing conversation around race in america. charles blow and eddie glaude will be our guests. thaks next. eddie glaude will be our guests thaks next people with plaque psoriasis, are rethinking t's nextey make. like the splash they create. the way they exaggerate. or the surprises they initiate. otezla. it's a choice you can make. otezla is not an injection or a cream. it's a pill that treats differently. for psoriasis, you can achieve clearer skin with otezla.

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a year after president joe biden signed legislation making it official, making june 19th or juneteenth a federal holiday, people across the country gathered at events to celebrate and to learn, importantly, to learn about the history of this holiday. it honors the day in 1865 when union soldiers arrived in galveston, texas, to order the freedom of black enslaved people two months after the confederacy surrendered in the civil war. since president biden's declaration one year ago, made in the wake of a national wave of protests surrounding the murder of george floyd, americans have become a little bit more familiar with juneteenth. 59% of americans saying they knew a lot or some about the holiday compared with 37% one

year ago. our friend, charles blow, writes in his piece in "the new york times," "the education of juneteenth by all americans is crucial. having juneteenth enshrined as a national holiday makes it more likely that all americans are taught not only about the day itself but also about the legacy of enslavement. more likely to interrogate the very notion of freedom and examine the imperfections of the emancipation order." joining us now, the aforementioned charles blow, "new york times" columnist, and eddie glaude, chair of the department of african american studies at princeton university and the host of the new podcast, "history is us." both are msnbc contributors. i want to ask both of you how the -- this -- i think tension's the wrong word. it's a violent clash, right, between people wanting to know more, people hungering to not make the mistakes of history, and a trepidation, a horror, a

terror of knowing our actual history, which isn't in dispute on a factual level. what does that look like, and what does that mean? you first, charles. >> well, it's important to remember that this became a federal holiday during the first wave of the anti-crt bills being passed. that first wave of bills was passed in april, may, and june of last year, and so in a way, this became a bit of a counterbalance to that. people weren't articulating it as such, but by making a federal holiday, you almost make sure that some education will happen. will -- it's not a curriculum, which is what you need, but it is something. and because slavery -- enslavement lasted for 250 years almost, there's not a day on the calendar we focus on that. it lasted in this country for

longer than it has not been on this soil. and we -- having some opportunity to focus on that, in particular, is important, i believe. you know, black history month now largely focuses on black achievement, which is great. martin luther king day focuses on king's accomplishments, which were largely during the civil rights movement, a whole century after what happened on juneteenth. and so, having an opportunity, a day on the calendar, where people are focused on one issue, i think, is helpful. it is not the whole ball of wax. but it helps. >> eddie, i want your thoughts on this question and this clash. and i know that around questions of where our politics are, we talk about -- we share a despair that i think is justified. i'm not going to be defensive about our despair around politics but around this question, it's clearly incremental at best.

if you feel like making this a holiday was at least an incremental step to do something productive and useful and helpful? >> yes, so, i think it's important. i think it just echos charles's points, with the holiday, we now have an occasion to think about the second founding. that is to say, the emergence of the u.s. nation state shorn of slavery. not racism. but it's the second founding where the u.s. nation state is born without the institution of slavery. although the 13th amendment is passed about 6 months later, ratified 6 months after juneteenth, juneteenth still symbolically represents the end of slavery in the united states. at least it can be. but in terms of you -- directly to your question, there's a kind of historical precedent, nicole. with the collapse of radical reconstruction, there is a kind of violent backlash, a kind of betrayal, and that betrayal comes with the lost cause. it comes with a history that is

being written that writes out the violence, that obscures what we have done as a nation. so, it makes sense that in a moment where we see racial -- racist retrenchment, where we see extremist forces on the rise trying to, in every way, undermine our democracy, that there would be this anti-crt movement, right? no matter what you think about critical race theory, we need to understand the relationship between critical race theory and white -- the replacement theory, that they go hand in hand. we need to understand its relationship to stop the steal and voter suppression. they go hand in hand. because we saw it at the latter part of the 19th century, as jim crow was taking root and the ideology of anglo saxonism was overrunning the country. >> i guess my follow-up for you, eddie, is it feels inadequate, and i hate to say that because it's important and it was hard fought for and i want to read from opal lee's op-ed in the "washington post" today, but i want to say that we've all been

on the air covering a massacre that was a racist rampage by an 18-year-old white supremacist who got his hand on an ar-15 before they finished burying him, there was another massacre in uvalde. i mean, we have white supremacist-aligned militias loading themselves into moving trucks and descending upon american cities. feels like we're living in a moment where the pushback has to be at least as vigorous or as intense or as focused upon or as hardly sort of animated on a day-to-day, into our day-to-day lives as the assault, no, eddie? >> absolutely. i mean, one would be -- it would be odd to think of juneteenth as a kind of panacea, as a singular answer to our current racial malaise, which has this deep historical -- these deep historical roots. let's be clear. remember, juneteenth is about delayed freedom. two years after the emancipation proclamation.

people find out they're free in galveston, quote, unquote. so, what does it mean to talk about delayed freedom? it means that the country, even though it declares x, right, that there is this sense that there's ongoing battle. freedom, nicole, at the end, freedom is not an end. freedom is a practice. freedom is not the emancipation proclamation. freedom is not the 13th amendment, the 15th amendment, the voting rights act. freedom is a practice that's evidenced in our lived, our day-to-day lives, and juneteenth helps us understand that. so, that's how i would put it. >> we have much more to get to. we have to sneak in a quick break. more with charles blow and eddie glaude. re with charles blow ande glaude

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started buying land, was in the house of representatives. we didn't know our family was part of black reconstruction. exactly. okay, seriously. finding out this family history, these things become anchors for your soul. a monster was attacking but the team remained calm. because with miro, they could problem solve together, and find the answer that was right under their nose. or... his nose.

we're back with charles and eddie. charles, this is the piece i mentioned from opal lee. she writes this in the "washington post." we can't let juneteenth become just another holiday or worse a holiday for only one segment of the country. we should see it for what it really is. the other half of the fourth of july. these two holidays, which fall a mere two weeks apart, represent the best of america. one celebrates the declaration of independence, which contains what the great abolitionist frederick douglass called saving principles. the other celebrates america's journey to live by those principles. >> is that a question? >> i mean, i just put it out there because i -- yeah, i mean, you know, add to it, disagree with it, agree with it. what do you think? >> i mean, listen, i try -- i'm

trying not to put too much on the shoulders of this holiday. give us a day off. i'm fine with that. i've been celebrating juneteenth my whole life. normally, i would take a day off. that's a day of my holiday. give me a day off. i'm fine with that. and if every black person in america gets that day off, i'm very happy about that and they get paid for it. if everybody else gets a day off in addition to that, great for you. use it however you want to. i wrote about how my mother used to celebrate and you know, they didn't -- they called it freedom day. she didn't know much more than that, that you could put in a sentence. but they enjoyed each other and community and being with each other, and thinking about what freedom meant, but also just eating food and picnicking and playing, you know, music and baseball, as she described it. i'm okay with that. i don't think we have to load too much on to the shoulders of juneteenth. it's a day off in the middle of the summer. people are going to barbecue.

they're not going to think about what the day unfortunately, we many of our national holidays. that's going to happen. don't be bent out of shape about it. but what it does is it allows space for you to uses it however you want to and if you want to use it as a day of education and focus on enslavement and freedom and what those two things have meant to this country, i think that is perfectly okay, and actually, admirable. this is not changing everything. this is, you know, some people can describe it as tokenism. i understand all that. doesn't change the fact that reparations is still an issue we need to deal with. doesn't change the fact that equality is still an issue that we need to deal with. doesn't change the fact that white supremacy is still an issue that we need to deal with. it does say that you have a day to use as you please, and it is on a day that is significant to black people and is around the idea of slavery and freedom, and

i would like for you to take a beat and think about that. >> i think that's perfect. i think that's perfect, right? let's not put everything on the shoulders of one day. i think that, eddie, what charles directs us to do is the right thing to do, but i do want to ask you, you know, when you take a beat, what are your thoughts? know, when y you ou take a bknow,eat, w whenhat areu a beat, what are your thoughts about where we are and where we've been? feels like we're always at this fork in the road, but instead of being like this, it's now like this, right?in >> right, right. i appreciate charles' libertarian reading of juneteenth, the juneteenthrt holiday. i appreciate it very much, but i think it also afford us an to understand the significance of delayed freedom, that we're still in the battle, still in the fight, that it allows us an occasion to tell a different story about the nation. the african american museum at the smithsonian has a chance to

do serious work, eji, schools around the country, serious work. we have that space, as charles rightly notes, but in this moment, where undemocratic forces motivated by deep racist resentment, grievance, and fear, are threatening to undermine the foundations of our democracy, it's very important for remember the import, seriousness, significance and danger of racism. >> thank you for fielding many i questions and spending time with us. i'm grateful to both of you on all days. quick break for us. we'll be right back. back.

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someone's going to get hurt. someone's going to get shot, someone's going to get killed, and it's not right. >> that warning from georgia elections official gabriel sterling about election disinformation rang out all across this country way back on december 1, 2020, 36 day before donald trump's big lie led to -- tomorrow as a panel of state officials involved in the 2020 election, that man will testify publicly before the january 6th select committee as will georgia's secretary of state brad rachb sterger and who stood his ground and refused to overturn the election in his state when donald trump got on

the phone and asked him to find exactly enough votes to propel him to a fraudulent victory. according to liz cheney, tomorrow's hearing will showcase for the public even more evidence that president trump corruptly pressured state officials and election officials to change the election results, including in the state of georgia. our special coverage begins tomorrow at noon before the hearing gets under way, and we hope you'll join us tomorrow night for recap and analysis. rachel maddow leads that and our primetime colleagues will be there as well. last break for us. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back. es are ours. our interactive tools and advice can help you build a future for the ones you love. that's the value of ownership. a monster was attacking but the team remained calm. because with miro, they could problem solve together, and find the answer that was right under their nose. or... his nose.

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. we are grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts now. busy week ahead, right? >> i think we'll be very busy. see you tomorrow, nicole. >> sounds good. >> okay. welcome to "the beat." i'm ari melber. happy juneteenth which is now a federal holiday. the government is officially closed today, although there are signs some house staffers may be at work putting the finishing touches on the -- and there are signs the first two hearings are breaking through around the national we'll get to that. tomorrow's hearing will moe beyond the public plots to overthrow the election, like the rally and violence that has been so horrifically documented and turn to at plos that were more secret or offstage, including the ♪♪ of officials, voter fraud, try to steal the election for trump. some plot were not well known