and we need some support in congress it's not clear they have it to get it passed. >> politico's sam stein, we really appreciate it. >> of course, thank you. >> you're welcome, sam. thanks to all of you also for getting up "way too early" on this wednesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. it is the new pattern or a pattern in our lives to worry what will happen on saturdays because we have various groups come by. >> and it had his name, you committed treason, may god have mercy on your soul. with a slowly twisting giff of a noose. >> then some people broke into my daughter-in-law's home. and my son has passed, and she's a widow and has two kids. so we're very concerned about her safety also. >> you know, people were at her home, they started pushing their way through, claiming that they

were coming in to make a citizens arrest. >> hearing number four, the attack on the capitol. >> mika, we've been talking about it this week, it's been a theme of violence in american politics. one side promoting violence, that is, of course, the trump wing of the republican party, where there's a consequence starting in 2015 where donald trump in 2016 was saying beat up protesters. i remember the time when they used to go out an a stretcher. >> right. >> if you beat them up, i'll pay for your defense. praising a member of a republican member of congress. for being up a reporter for asking a question about health care policy. talking about violence, having violent imagery. this leads to one threat after another threat after another threat. >> to ultimately an attempt to overturn the election. the hearing was marked by testimony of threats of violence and in some cases actual violence. and against elected officials

who refused to help donald trump overturn the 2020 election. and against election workers innocently targeted in the former president's big lie. the hearing examined what was described as trump's personal and direct role in the scheme. the committee demonstrated how trump and his team leaned on state officials to throw out biden votes, find trump votes, or to replace biden electors with fake trump ones. you can believe this? it's like a movie. rnc chairwoman ronna mcdaniel, former chief of staff mark meadows, senator ron johnson and congressman andy biggs were also mentioned as helping in the effort, when state officials refused to go along with the big lie, they testified that their families and communities were targeted. >> it was really compelling testimony. mika, it was throughout the day

again, what's owe extraordinary for the hearings, for the most part, you have people who are not only republicans but were trump republicans, while donald trump was president of the united states. >> that's what will made it so scary. >> they can real trump republicans even when they were asking -- >> yeah. >> -- to violate the constitution. and they just simply refused to violate the constitution of the united states and avert american democracy, even if they supported donald trump. so this is -- i mean, this is -- this is what makes this hearing unlike, i think, unlike any other hearing i've seen in washington, d.c. that this is -- in fact, we've heard about barry goldwater and other republicans walking over to the white house telling nixon it's time to go. >> right. >> no one ever had the courage to tell donald trump the truth it was time for him to get out of office when he was in office. but what we're seeing is one public official after another

public official saying it now. telling donald trump -- and recounting how they said it then privately. but we're hearing it now publicly in away that shows, again, even more many trump loyalists, proves that the man is just unfit for office. >> these are profiles of courage. it happened in the meet of the moment as well. >> yeah. >> and the testimony is gripping. we're going to show you a lot of what was said yesterday in the hearing, the fourth hearing. with us we have host and executive producer of "the circus on show time." ms. >> announcer: john heilemann. white house politico achieve, jonathan lemire. former aide to the george w. bush white house and state department elise jordan. attorney and contributor for "the washington post" george conway. and politics and journalist professor at morgan state university, politics editor at the grio, and an msnbc political

contributor jason johnson. really good to have you all on board. the first witness in yesterday's hearing, arizona's conservative republican house speaker rusty bowers offered dramatic testimony about the pressure he faced from the president and rudy giuliani and other trump allies to help in the effort to overturn the 2020 election results. >> mr. giuliani came on first and niceties. then mr. trump, then president trump, came on. and they initiated a conversation. >> during that conversation, did you ask mr. giuliani for proof of these allegations of fraud that he was making? >> on multiple occasion, yes. he said that they did have proof. i asked him do you have names -- for example, you have 200,000 illegal immigrants, some large

number. 5,000, 6,000, dead people, et cetera. i said do you have their names? yes. will you give them to me? yes. the president interrupted and said give the man what he needs, rudy. he said, i will. that happened on at least two occasions, that interchange in the conversation. >> did you ever receive from him that evidence either during the call, after the call or to this day? >> never. >> and at some point, did mr. giuliani ask one of the other attorneys on his team to help him out with the evidence? >> he did. he asked jenna ellis who was sitting to his right -- one thing was, it was more to the point of was there sufficient evidence or action that we could justify the recalling of the electors. but at that part of the conversation, i know he referred to someone else. but he did ask, do we have the

proof to jenna? miss ellis. and she said, yes. and i said, i want the names. do you have the names? yes. do you have how they voted? we have all the information. i said can you get to me that information? did you bring it with you? she said no. both mr. giuliani asked her and i asked generally if they'd brought it with them. she said, no, it's not with me, but we can get it to you. and i said you didn't bring me the evidence which was repeated in different iterations for some period of time. >> at some point, did one of them make a comment that they didn't have evidence, but they had a lot of theories? >> that was mr. giuliani. >> and what exactly did he say and how did that come up? >> my recollection, he said, we've got lots of theories, we just don't have the evidence. i don't know if that was a gaff

or maybe he didn't think through what he said. both myself and others in my group, the three in my group, and my counsel both remembered that specifically and afterwards and kind of laughed about it. >> speaker bowers, did the president call you again later in december? >> he did, sir. >> and did you tell the president in that second call you that supported him, that you voted for him, but that you were not going to do anything illegal for him? >> i did, sir. >> nevertheless, his lawyer john eastman called you some days later on june 4th, 2021, and he did have a very specific ask that would have required you to do just what you had already told the president you wouldn't do, something that would violate your oath, is that correct? >> that's correct. it wasn't just me, i had my counsel and others on the call. i said, you're asking me to do something that's never been done

in history, the history of the united states, and i'm going to put my stake through that without sufficient proof? and that's going to be good enough with me, that i would put us through that? my stake, that i swore to uphold both in constitution and law? no, sir. he said, well, my suggestion would be just do it and let the courts figure it all out. >> did you also receive a call from u.s. representative andy biggs of arizona on the morning of january 6th? >> i did. >> and what did mr. biggs ask you to do? >> i believe that was the day that the vote was occurring to each state to have certification. or to declare the certification of the electors. and he asked if i would sign on

both to a letter that had been sent from my state and/or that i would support the decertification of the electors. and i said i would not. we received, my secretaries would say, in excess of 20,000 emails and tens of thousands of voice mails and texts, which saturated our offices and we were unable to work, at least communicate. but at home, up till even recently, it is the new pattern or a pattern in our lives to worry what will happen on saturdays, because we have various groups come by. and they have had video panel --

panel trucks with videos of me claiming to be a pedophile, murderer and politician, and blaring loud speakers in my neighborhood. and leaving literature both on my property, and arguing and threatening with neighbors and with myself. i don't know if i should name groups, but there was one gentleman that had the three bars on his chest. and he had a pistol and was threatening my neighbor not with the pistol, but vocally. when i saw the gun, i knew i had to get close. and at the same time, on some of these, we had a daughter who is gravely ill who was upset by

what was happening outside. and my wife -- that was a valiant person, very strong, quiet. very strong woman. so, it was disturbing. it was disturbing. >> rusty bowers daughter casey bowers died after a longtime illness on january 28th, 2021, just weeks after the attack on the capitol. but that was incredibly moving on so many levels. >> it was extraordinarily powerful. and we have more of his testimony. just the power of it, at one point, when he kept being asked to violate the constitution of the united states, he said, i swore to uphold the constitution

the law. it is a tenet of my faith. that the constitution is divinely inspired. my most basic foundational belief for me to do this is foreign tole my very being. john heilemann, more extraordinary words from people who, as -- and in the speaker's words, i supported you, i voted for you, i'm not going to do anything illegal for you. that neatly sums up most of the witnesses in this hearing so far. >> yeah. joe, look, rusty bowers, he's a conservative guy. i mean, you wouldn't even say conservative. i think some people would say radical. some people would say maga. he's a guy that has pursued

donald trumpian policies. there are those who accuse him of leading voter suppression eras in arizona and keeping people from voting down there. so, this is a guy when he stands up and says, you, mr. president, are going too far here. and the things that you just read. he's a person who must be taken seriously in that sense. this is not a person who -- there's no world ych the word "rino" means anything. i heard you rail against the notion of rino yesterday, the ridiculous term that even predated donald trump. there's for world in which this guy can be accused of being rino. even by donald trump. i think the power of that said came from that. this is a guy who would have done almost anything for donald trump but in this case, what he was asking him to do, pressuring him to do was so clearly and

flagrantly illegal, and that tells how the scheme was. i was saying this hearing was the most compelling. but this is the subject about what a lot of us knew the least. what was going on in state capitols, in this period in a coordinated, on this fake elector issue. it was a thing that really was obscured and in the dark. so much of our focus is what happens in washington and rightly so in this case. but, man, a lot of new information about the extent and the pollingness of what went on in this country. >> yeah. >> and, george, yesterday fox news -- fox news actually carried this hearing. a fox news host came out and talked about how compelling the evidence was against donald trump. and i think in part, one of the reasons why the testimony is so strong because so many people, as john said, that are testifying were on board the trump train from the very beginning. and were living to the very end, until he asked them them to

violate the constitution. and so when you have somebody testifying against donald trump who will says it is the tenet of my faith that the constitution is divinely inspired. my most basic foundational belief for me to do this is foreign to my very being. that's not a progressive from the upper west side. that's somebody, the heart of maga land, who believes, as donald trump believes and many trumpists believe, but they won't cross the line and do illegal action. i think -- how compelling is that, again, for trump's own audience? >> it is incredibly compelling. and it highlights the inherent tension that existed in maga land for the last six years. which is, you have some people

who are very deeply value-driven people, deeply religious people who somehow, you know, fell into following along with donald trump. either projecting positive qualities on it or deceiving themselves. here, this man recognized that what donald trump was asking him to do was outright fraud. and he was not going to accept that. he was not going to rationalize it. he was not going to be silent to it. he was not going to accede to it in any way, because fundamentally, you know, it struck this core being, it struck his core morality. and i hope this resonates with more republicans who -- you know, who go to church every week and tell their children to be honest and to tell the truth and to do the right thing. and that's not what donald trump is all about.

he's the opposite. >> yeah. that's who republicans used to or still think they are. and they're not. and this man was truly a profile in courage. we also heard from georgia elections workers, a mother and a daughter, who had their names dragged through the mud by then president trump and his lawyer rudy giuliani all to advance the big lie. you'll hear the moment when trump and giuliani targeted them by name. and then the women's testimony yesterday. >> taped earlier in the day that ruby freeman and shaye moss and another gentleman passing around usb ports and a week ago, they're walking around georgia lying. they should have been questioned

already. at their places of work, their homes should have been searched. >> in one of the videos mr. giuliani accused you and your mother of passing some sort of usb to each other. what was your mom actually handing you on that video? >> a ginger mint. >> we had at least 18,000 that's on tape. we had them counted very painstakingly. 18,000 voters having to do with ruby freeman that she's a vote scammer, a professional vote scammer and hustler. >> donald trump attacked you and your mother using her name 18 times on that call. 18 times. miss moss, can you described listening to former president trump attack you and your mother in a call with georgia secretary of state? >> i felt horrible. i felt like it was all my fault.

like if i would have never decided to be an elections worker like -- i could have done anything else, but that's what i is decided to do. now people are lying and spreading rumors and lies, attacking my mom. >> miss moss, how has this experience being targeted by the former president and his allies affected your life? >> turned my life upside down. i no longer give out my business card. i don't transfer calls. i don't want anyone knowing my name. i don't want to go anywhere with my mom because she might yell my name out over the grocery aisle or something. i don't go to the grocery store at all. i haven't been anywhere at all.

i gained about 60 pounds. i just don't do much of anything anymore. >> there's former i feel safe. nowhere. do you know how it feels to have the president of the united states target you? the president of the united states is supposed to represent every american, not to target one. but he targeted me, lady ruby, a small business owner, a mother, a proud american citizen, who stands up to help fulton county run an election in the middle of the pandemic. >> miss moss, i understand that people once showed up at your grandmother's house. tell us about that experience.

>> i received a call from my grandmother. she's my everything, i've never even heard her or seen her cry ever in my life. and she called me screaming at the top of her lung like shaye, shaye just freaking me out saying there are people at her home. and they -- you know, they knocked on the door and of course, she opened it seeing who was there, who it was. and they just started pushing their way through, claiming that they were coming in to make a citizen's arrest. they needed to find me and my mom. they knew we were there. and she was just screaming and didn't know what to do. and i wasn't there so, you know,

i just felt so helpless and so horrible for her. >> now i won't even introduce myself by my name anymore fm. i get nervous when i bump into someone i know in the grocery store who said my name. i'm worried about who's listening. i get nervous when i have to give my name for food orders. i'm always concerned who's around me. i've lost my name, and i've lost my reputation. i've lost my sense of security. >> it is -- it's beyond contemptible. and, by the way, the lies that donald trump spread that rudy giuliani spread about these two women are lies that were sent around in emails. i had people emailing me, talking about this for months, what about those two people that

stole ballots that lifting something from underneath the table. and then the supposed drive ended up being a ginger mint. and we talk about the violence that donald trump inspired on january 6th. but he inspired it before then, obviously. again, it's a strain of fascism and trump ism, in donald trump, and people who still support donald trump and these actions, defend it, lie about it, try to -- try to dismiss it with their anti- anti-trumpism. they try to dismiss it with the republican party, they're embraing fascism. and jason, what we just saw here was not just a disregard for

these women's reputations, and by the way, trump throws in a hustler. a disregard for their safety, a disregard for their lives. and unlike the arizona speaker of the house, unlike the secretary of state of georgia, unlike people like mika and myself who face threats, unlike everybody that's faced threats and had to get security because of donald trump, these are private citizens. the only thing these private citizens did was serve their country in the time of a pandemic. it's just contemptible and detestable. >> joe, this is why i don't give any profiles encouraged to randy bowman. because if you're a trump support, if you're a radical maga supporter, donald trump has been doing this since he ran for office. he's been encouraging violence

against all sorts of people. he's been naming names in twitter. he's been calling people out. he's been saying send them out on a stretcher. so when i hear randy bowman say well i reached this particular point, this sort of meat loaf thing, i would do anything for trump but i won't do that. i'm not moved by that. the difference between him and shaye moss and her mother and grandmother, these are regular people, joe. but this is violence inflicted on black people who want to live their regular lives, it's not new, it's exacerbated. not really a republican party or republican organization which is a dime store front for the maga terrorist movement but also by a weak-willed democrat party that does not recognize the threat. honestly, when i heard the story from moss about people breaking

into her grandmother's house because they were looking for something wrong, you know who i thought of? ahmaud arbery. that's how that could have turned out. that is what the country is facing right now? do we know if the people who broke into her grandmother's house are in jail? do we know what happened to the hundreds of phone calls of threats -- no, do you trust merrick garland to do anything about it? do you trust this administration to send the fbi to do anything other than warn people to leave their homes? we are leaving regular citizens, regular people, like you said who don't have money for security to have someone stand outside of their house for 24 hours, we're leaving them to be victims of the slow-moving coup and terrorist organization. and rather than taking that seriously, rather than showing people this is a country that has a commitment to you as a taxpayer for doing your job, we're letting those people suffer. that's what infuriated me.

there was no happy ending yesterday. there were no profiles for maga republicans. all i saw were victims who continue to be victimized until someone is held accountable. >> and elise, you had yesterday, more evidence of this violence. and again, we talk about january 6. we talk about the cops who had the hell beaten out of them. we talk about, you know, we talk about people running around screaming "hang mike pence." donald trump saying that his vice president deserved to die. donald trump throwing kerosene on the fire in the middle of this riot. attacking mike pence knowing that he and his family were scrambling for their lives. >> and other people. >> that he's people were trying to go after nancy pelosi. this is easier to understand because as far as the cause and effect of this -- because we saw

donald trump, we heard rudy giuliani talking about combat justice before this. donald trump saying go up. there donald trump saying, proud stand by. . don junior saying we're coming after you. it's a little harder for us to describe, because we don't see it, all of the people, whether they were the arizona speaker of the house who was confronted with a guy with a gun while his daughter who had terminal illness was sitting there watching that. or the georgia secretary of state who was threatened. or these two poll workers who were threatened, or all the other people threatened because, let's face it, the lies that donald trump spread not only had consequences, continued to have consequences, whether it's outside of a pizza joint in

washington, d.c. or it's bursting through the house of poll workers in georgia. or it's going after members of the media, not us, but other members of the media when they're walking downs street. saying this -- let me say it again -- i'm going to say it more slowly. thisis fascism. trumpism is fascism. it is the use of violence. it is the use of intimidation, it is the use of force to try to intimidate elected representatives, poll workers. members of the media. anybody that doesn't buy into the big lie. >> joe, it's anyone who doesn't go along with trump's fascist bullying. because at the end of the day, that's what he did.

he and his minions went out and targeted dedicated civil servants, poll workers. i think of my parents in mississippi. and how they used to always volunteer at the polls in marshall county on election day. and any ordinary person who just wanted to step up and volunteer could have to worry about a mob coming to their home, coming to their grandmother's home. and as jason pointed out, what are the repercussions for those men and women who stormed the grandmother's home. and had her fearing for her life. you know, a lot of the political leaders that we saw yesterday, they are men of power. and they had recourse. and they also are men who were used to being in the public spotlight. you look at how the direct agents of democracy were targeted by donald trump.

and yesterday's testimony, shaye moss, it was absolutely bone-chilling. >> and shaye moss and her mother ruby freeman. moss is an election worker, a mothe her mother, a volunteer. she's just trying to do a small part to move forward democracy. they had her life turns upside down, her life a living hell because of threats of violence. and, john heilemann, the threats of violence of donald trump and maga republicans did not end on january 6th. we saw the evidence there about the violence at the capitol cost officers their lives. the threat is only intensified. law enforcement worried about election security this fall. even more so in 2024. just a couple days ago, we had a missouri senate candidate eric

greitens run an ad hooch he threatened to kill his fellow republicans brandishing firearms. where is this going? >> very disturbing, truly one of the most disturbing eras of the trump era is increasing tolerance folder and political violence as joe properly defined. and it was illustrated yesterday, political violence is not just a punch thrown or a flag pole -- a hit -- used to hit somebody on top of the head. it doesn't have to have blood drawn. you know, it can be threats of violence. intimidation. it can be online. and it can be offline. these are all things -- they're all tools of violence. again, on the online side. i think yesterday talked about what it was like to be doxed. anybody that's been doxed, had

their home address put out on social media understands what that leads to. it can lead to terrorization across the line. and lead to people showing up at your house and potentially having a physical confrontation. what does that mean going forward. as you pointed out, it's not stopped in some ways, it's gotten worse. if you're a user and implementer of political violence of this kind making physical threats, it's a win-win for you. if the person backs down and accedes to what you're demanding, if they don't back down, they're never going to work as an election worker again. they're never going to have their grandmother or brother or sister be a volunteer at a polling place. and for all of the people who maybe had contemplated working in 2022 elections or 2024, they have seen this example and said no longer. so you succeeded in the long run in undermining the process. and making the next election or the election after that more easterly perverted.

more easily stolen or underlined. i think the knock-off effects of this as we go forward to 2022 and 2024 are truly horrifying and send a chill up my spine about what we're going to see in the next couple of elections. >> or, or, or -- or maybe, what happens in the coming months galvanizes people to get more involved. i don't know, joe, you used the word "fascism" we're seeing bullying, unpatriotic behavior, cruel, corrupt. and we'll ask george conway on the other side of the break what were the laws broken here? what is the illegality here? there's so much we hear. coming up including the new voice mails of rudy giuliani calling state lawmakers almost daily pressing them to overturn.2020 election results. and senator ron johnson

tries to avoid questions from the reporters after the committee revealed new information about his involvement in trump's fake elector scheme. plus, we'll be joined by congressman adam schiff who led the questioning yesterday, we'll get this take on the hearing and what's ahead for the committee. what's next. as we go to break, another moment from arizona house speaker rusty bowers where he shared a an entry in his personal journey amid trump's pressure campaign. >> it is painful to have friends who have been such a republic to me turn on me with such rancor. i may in the eyes of men not hold correct opinions or act according to their vision or convictions, but i do not take this current situation in a light manner, a fearful manner or a vengeful manner. i do not want to be a winner by

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and increase nitric oxide. rush to walmart for great-tasting total beets from force factor, the #1 beets brand in america! pennsylvania house speaker bryan cutler received daily voice mails from trump's lawyers in the last week of november. >> mr. speaker, this is rudy giuliani and jenna ellis, we're calling you together because we'd like to discuss, obviously, the election. >> hello, mr. speaker, this is jenna ellis, and i'm here with mayor giuliani. >> hey, brian, it's rudy. i really have something important to call your attention. i think really changes things. >> cutler thought the outreach was inappropriate and asked his lawyers to tell rudy giuliani to stop calling but giuliani continued to reach out. >> i understand you that don't want to talk to me now. i just want to bring some facts to your attention and talk to you as a fellow republican. >> rudy, the telemarketer.

i mean, he's got a future after he gets past his lawsuits and disbarment hearing. >> yeah, the house committee played those voice mails from rudy giuliani and jenna ellis, two of trump's lawyers, i think i'll put that in quotes at this point. repeatedly calling state legislators to pressure them to overturn the 2020 election results. a top aide to republican senator ron johnson attempted to arrange a hand-off of false pro-trump electors from the senate to mike pence minutes before the vice president began to count electoral votes on january 6th, 2021. the attempt was revealed in text messages obtained by the january 6 select committee during his public hearing yesterday. >> text messages exchanged between republican party officials in wisconsin shows that on january 4th, the trump

campaign asked for someone to fly their fateful documents to washington. a staffer for wisconsin senator ron johnson texted a staffer for vice president pence just minutes before the beginning of the joint session. this staffer stated that senator johnson wished to hand deliver to the vice president the fateful elector votes. and even though the state elect elector slates were transmitted to congress and executive branch the vice president held firm in his position in his role to count the lawfully submitted electoral votes. >> you see what pence's staff member said, do not hand that to him. >> yes. and that made a big difference, after that revelation, senator johnson reluctantly spoke to reporters yesterday while seemingly pretending to be on the phone. >> how much did you know about what your chief of staff was

doing with the alternate slates of elects? >> i'm on the phone. >> no, you're not, i can see your phone. i can see your screen. >> senator, can you explain what your chief of staff was doing? >> does your chief of staff still work for, senator? >> can you explain what happened there? why was your chief of staff even offering that? >> that's a complete nonstory. we've issued a statement and this is a complete nonstory. >> i don't know what you're even concerned with. >> well, they said that your chief of staff is saying that you offered -- >> alternate elects of michigan. >> no, this is a staff-to-staff exchange. and i was, you know, basically unaware of it. and the chief of staff contacted the vice president's staff said do you want this? they said no, and we didn't

deliver it, end of story. >> why was he even asking that? >> because someone delivered this to our office and asked to give it to the vice president. >> did you support his efforts to try to get the slates to the vice president? >> no, i had knowledge of this. i had no involvement in an alternate slate of electors. i had no idea that they'd been delivered to us. delivered staff to staff, my chief of staff did the right thing, contacted the vice president's staff, said they didn't want it, so they didn't deliver it. end of story. >> the words of gladstone biographer, roy jenkins, also former member of parliament. here you have the organ grinder blaming the monkey. >> oh, i mean, this is just hysterical. i mean, he's clearly covering up. he's clearly not telling the truth here. but this whole fake elector thing, i mean, it's -- it really

is highlighting the fact that this is, you know, criminal fraudulent conspiracy to create false documentation. and you have -- you can't hand out counterfeit bills to people saying, well, the bank made a mistake, so this would be real money if the bank hadn't made a mistake. this is exactly the same thing. and the evidence yesterday showed it, many in the ron -- romney/mcdaniel testimony showed. he was all in on the fake elector scheme which involved fraudulent, false documentation. it doesn't matter if he reads that somehow he did or should have won. and has all sorts of facts that he claims he should have won. he was conspiring to commit -- to throw in false documents. and it's sort of interesting, too, because you have rudy saying, we've got all of these legal theories, but no evidence. and then you have a judge out in

california, judge carter saying, this was a coup in search of legal theory. well, they had coups in search of legal theories that didn't have evidence. i mean, it is absolutely a complete sham. you know if this doesn't show fraudulent intent of these co-conspirators all the way up to donald trump i don't know what does. >> it's an extraordinary case that they're patching together. i mean, the conspiracy here, john heilemann, is so widespread. and the thought that a chief of staff would pass along an alternate slate of electors that a member didn't know about is beyond preposterous. >> well, joe, it's worse than that. so, i've watched all of the video of senator johnson trying to respond to the questions. under his -- once he moved past the fake phone call. >> oh, my god. >> and he was asked -- >> no, you're not.

i can see the phone. you're not on the phone. >> that's painful. >> you don't even have to see the screen to know it's a fake phone call. so his explanation for this is, this is what happened. a house intern who is unnamed passed along a slate of fake electors to his chief of staff, his -- senator johnson's chief of staff, also unnamed, who then suggested that senator johnson should carry that slate of fake electors and put the slate of fake electors in vice president pence's hands on the day of the certification. that very day. and then he says -- you know, we sent an email or text asking the vice president's office whether he would like that. the vice president's office came back and said, ah, no. so there's nothing to see here, joe. nothing to see here. that chain of events, unnamed house intern, passing it along,

slate of fake electors who then attempts to get it in the vice president's hands that day he says is a nonstory. i'd like your analysis how congressional offices actually work to kind of do an assessment of how plausible you think that account is. >> yeah. well, i think it goes without saying that nobody that ever worked with me would have ever done that on a single vote. certainly would have never passed anything to anybody in leadership in the house leadership. or the senate leadership, without passing it by me first. it just -- it doesn't work that way. >> congress. >> i would have people saying, oh, joe, you're supposed to be so conservative, and yet, you have moderate republicans and democrats on your staff. and i go, they don't vote. i do. they go, oh, they're going to impose -- what are you talking about? no, it doesn't work that way.

and the whole - guess who knows that? >> yeah. ron johnson knows that. >> ron johnson. >> yes, every member -- by the way, you bring up a great point here. i know that's a lie because i served one of 435 in the little house. but in the house of lords this definitely never happens, right? and it certainly wouldn't happen with somebody that's been in office for as long as ron johnson's been in office. it will never happen that way. so, everybody on the hill, including other republicans know he's lying. the question is, of course, jonathan lemire, where do we go from here? ron johnson appears to be caught up in the conspiracy. what's next for the committee, what's next for ron johnson. >> ron johnson, of course, one of donald trump's faithful allies in the senate. he's floated conspiracy theories. and we should note, caught on video privately, he knows that

trump lost wisconsin. he knows that trump lost the election altogether. i think what we're finding here this phenomenon, this committee has been putting up the hearings, which have been so smart, so sharp. and congressman schiff i think did a terrific job leading the questions yesterday. as each proceeds as much as they're laying out the evidence, they're uncovering more evidence. war stories. evidence of a documentary film crew that followed donald trump for a while around january 6 of. they subpoenaed that footage. and the filmmaker is going to cooperate. this is a committee, this is a process still evolving. there's pressure from the outside, ginni thomas might be something we're going to hear from, the wife of supreme court justice who, of course, floated a lot of conspiracy theories herself. and ron johnson could be someone in this as well, including lawmakers in the house. this is an ever-expanding

investigation, even as the official committee hearings will have one more on the docket. now, we're told by aides expect others to be added. we could be stretching into july. >> wow. >> and you know, it's so fascinating, john heilemann, again, you look at the speaker of the house from arizona. and certainly, we take note of jason -- what jason has said before about his concerns about what his politics were, his politics were before. at the same time, you hear him speak, you hear him talk about how he feels the constitution is divinely inspired. and to go against the constitution would be going against the very core of his being. and you confront that with ginni thomas. you contrast that with donald trump. you contrast that with rudy giuliani. you contrast that with bill

bennett, people that talk about those values as a punch line. a way to sell a book. a way to get an applause line at a conservative convention. a way to wrap up a speech. and you understand just how cynical all of these people are. and how there still are a few people like the speaker of the house, even if you disagree with his politics who actually believes what he believes. and believes the constitution says what the constitution says. and believes that there's room for wide debate inside the parameters of that constitution. and we may disagree. but there are still constitutional guard rails that some people, a lot of people, who supported donald trump, weren't willing to drive through. >> yeah. and i think one of the lessons of all of this, joe, is that republicans in washington, broadly speaking, and i won't

say universal, but very close to universally, revealed themselves over the course of the trump years who have no principles whatsoever. and completely the party had collapsed on itself into the cult of trump. and these people as you said totally cynical. totally driven by power. totally driven to self-ideological -- no principles. out of the state of the republican party, some people who are the most extreme, some people the craziest of the maga people out there, the ones totally willing to do something, no respect for the constitution. they're like farther than anybody in washington. you have the chunk of the republican party who in 2020 at least were very conservative and on board for a lot of donald trump mischief in the years. but in the final moment found

their way back to some form of principle. i think it's interesting because you look out at the states, you therefore have some of the most appalling things happening in the state but are some of the things that save the country in some way in 2020. whereas in washington, you had a bunch of grifters or nesters who are amid their own scheme trying to make a buck or hold on to their own power. >> so also in the case of rusty bowers, i understand everybody could have trouble with trump supporters, how could you, how could you, how could you, we can go on forever with that. but the fact that he was one, joe, makes this all the more compelling, joe, that something was wrong. that he couldn't do it, that he couldn't bend for even the person that he voted for. and that he might vote for again, that he couldn't do it. it points to definitely something that was wrong. potentially something that was illegal. >> well, you know, maybe it's

just the southern baptist in me. i believe in deathbed conversion. i'm glad john wayne converted to catholicism on his deathbed. i've got paraables to tell you about, talking about people working in the fields through the night, who come at night and get paid the same. >> you don't judge them? >> it's the deathbed conversion. what i'm saying is, yeah, i certainly -- brian kemp, i have so many problems with brian kemp and the way he ran georgia, especially through the pandemic. i could go down the list. but you look, george, and again, i understand people who are upset about how people spent their years during the trump era, but you look at kemp. >> yeah. you look at raffensperger who

said no. you look at federalist society judges who one after another after another said, yeah, we're really conservative. we're not going to let donald trump get anywhere near the constitution. like, we can have our debates on abortion. we can have our debates over guns. we can have our debates over whatever. red hot issue people want to some their debates over. but there's a difference here that we need to spell out. there are those who will have those debates inside of constitutional guard rails. and then there are the trumpists who will break through those constitutional guard rails, because all that matters is winning. i say here here for those who -- with whom i disagree with strongly. but who at least recognized constitutional boundaries. >> absolutely. and i agree with you on the

deathbed conversions. i mean, i think of, you know, annika skywalker coming back at the end of the "star wars" movie. even if they didn't do the right thing, even if they were silent for so long. and i think we need to be more -- not forgiving but be more praising of people who come out and say do the right thing, even if they didn't do it before. because i think it deters a lot of people who know better. and who know this was all wrong, who kept quiet during and hoping it would all blow overly. you know, when they come out and say the right thing and do the right thing, you got to say they did the right thing. and not hammer it to the fact that you didn't do it the week before or last year or the year before that. >> yeah. >> that doesn't mean -- you know, at the end of the day, the

lord will be the judge of whether the good outweighs the bad. you know, when somebody does the right thing, you got to go out and say, they did the right thing. >> well, and that's the thing. i mean, elise, we're in the conversion business here. when i say "we," i'm not just talking you and me. i'm talking about people who give a damn about this country or give a damn about this constitution. we have to be -- got to win elections. but we're going to win elections by moving people back to the same rational pro-constitution i would say small "c" conservative side of the street. so, again, i'm just grateful we're having these hearings. i'm grateful i can pick up the phone and call my friends who have been all-in on the conspiracy theories that i can talk to my family members who are all in on the conspiracy

theories, and i can say, hey, listen, i know you were talking to me about the box that those women supposedly pulled out and said they were ballots. you need to see the testimony. go on google, check it out. and see what that lie has done to their lives. i know you're all-in on another -- you know, the fact is, the country we're living in today is actually a different country today than it was before the january 6th hearings. began. because we know the truth. the truth can set us free. we know now what happened on january 6th. and leading up to january 6th. and it just may give us a chance. to stitch together a working majority that still believes in the constitution of the united states. >> joe, the baptist in me thinks that the conversion parallel is

spot-on. because, you know, in the church i grew up in, you could behave pretty badly. but if you walk down that aisle and you took christ in your heart, then all was forgiven and you were part of the gang. and you could, you know, join the house of the lord thing. so i thought the arizona secretary of state -- or the arizona house speaker bowers, that his testimony was so moving. not just in a political sense, but in a christian sense. and it was just a very textbook conversion coming to jesus moment of when he said there was a line he couldn't cross. and he went back to his faith. and he waited. and that was the moment where he broke. and he couldn't stand with donald trump. and his, you know, trying to get him to forsake the american constitution. >> yeah. >> and i do -- i think we need to welcome people.

we have to be welcome people. who want to stand for democracy and free and fair elections. >> yeah. you can even talk about on election night. the republicans up in michigan that refused to lie, the republicans in georgia who refused to line. the republicans in pennsylvania that stood the line. the republicans in arizona who stood the line. we thank them. you know, mika, when i served in congress, steven larson was a friend of mine. steven was called a human highlight reel. when people asked why he's a friend of mine, he said because joe's a human mission field. every day, i'm doing mission work trying to save this guy. >> yeah. >> always -- always had grace. always had grace. >> george conway, thank you so much for being on this morning. we'll see you again soon, we hope. we have a lot more of the moments from yesterday's incredible hearing straight

ahead. also ahead in the 8:00 a.m. hour, we're going to speak with "the washington post's" bob woodward. there was another hearing yesterday. this one in texas that made a lot of news as well. it was over the police response to the uvalde school shooting where state senators heard new details about the botched response. the state department of safety called that response, quote, an abject failure. nbc news national correspondent gabe gutierrez has the very latest. >> reporter: these still images reviewed from the "austin american-statesman" but not nbc news shows officers inside with ballistic shields inside of rob elementary. >> law enforcement response to the attack at rob elementary was an abject failure for everything that we've learned in last two decades since the clom bien massacre. >> reporter: the head of the

texas department of public safety steven mcgraw said three minutes after the gunman entered the school there were enough armed officers there to stop him. instead, he says, they waited for 1 hour and 14 minutes. >> the on-scene commander waited for radio and arrivals. he waited for shields. he waited for s.w.a.t. lastly, he waited for a key that was never needed. >> reporter: he said he believes the doors to the classrooms where 19 student it's and two teachers were killed were unlocked and provided the most detailed carnage so far based on surveillance video and body cam video and 911 calls. at 11:28 a.m., the shooter crashed his vehicle into a ditch. a minute later, a teacher called 911 reporting a man with a gun. a patrol car sped into the school parking lot and drove by the shooter. at 11:23, he went inside and started shooting in classrooms.

within three minutes, three uvalde police officers entered the building with rifles and so did two officers including chief arrendondo. he called the police from his cell phone saying we don't have enough fire prior, we only have piflts. that was directly contradictory. >> the only one stopping the haul way of dedicated officers from 111 and 112 was the on scene commander who decided to place the lives of officers before the lives of children. the officers had weapons. the children had none. >> reporter: over the next 30 minutes, 911 calls from students inside the classroom began. more ballistic shields arrived. chief arrendondo requests a master key. chief arrendondo said we've lost two kids, these walls are thin. if he starts shooting we're going to lose more kids, and i have to say, we have to put those aside right now. minutes later people are asking

why we took so long we're trying to preserve the rest of life. >> the torrent of illogical statements here is preposterous. >> reporter: more than an hour after the gunman entered we're having a blank problem getting into the room because it's locked. he's got an ar-15 and shooting everywhere like crazy. not until 12:50 does a tactic team kill the gunman. >> he needs to be held accountable and provide information for us. >> i mean, it's extraordinary. >> oh. >> i'm seriously -- i can't think, john heilemann, i can't think of another situation where a police officer, where an onscene commander has made so many horrific calls. just pure cowardice, where they could have stopped this early. everything that they learned.

everything we've heard since columbine, thrown out the window, and he's just making excuses. lying about locked doors. lying about everything else. because he says he doesn't want his officers to get hurt. while children are calling 911, while teachers are calling 911, bleeding out and dying. >> yeah, look, joe, i think there's obviously -- this has been every day that this story has proceeded, the more we've learned about it the worse it gets in terms of institutional failure and human failure. and, you know, these are high-stress, high-pressure situation. and so, in many cases, the response is not perfect. and people will make allowance for imperfection. in this case, there are so many failure points and then the attempt to cover them up. and i think -- i think that's where we are now. as we've learned more and more

about not just the failures, but the lies, that have been told about them along the way by people -- like the commander that you're talking about, where it's become -- that's what -- that's where some of the uniqueness comes. i think there are instances where we've seen police responses that haven't been perfect. this one is so imperfect and such a mess. and attempts to lie about it and now repeated. there's very good journalism coming out that allowed to us understand incrementally what happened on the ground. >> let's bring in nbc news correspondent tom winter. tom, it seems every day i will hear a groan from the other room. i'll call out to mika and say what's wrong? she did, in the last several days, she goes, my god what i capital reading about uvalde, it keeps getting worse.

i said what happened? she said, you don't want to know, it's so painful. then i read it, and every day, it seems even more shocking. how there were cops on the other side of the door, while little children were calling 911 and bleeding out. there were cops on the scene. right after the killer got on the scene. there's a teacher calling her husband who wants him to come in and save her. he tries to go in. he gets restrained. every day this story gets worse and worse. and the police, onscene commander's actions, more contemptible and more cowardly. >> you're talking about chief pete arrendondo still on the payroll of that city.

when you look at this, first of all, this is a failure before salvador ramos even showed up that day. when you look at how the school is protected or not protected as we heard from dps, the teachers didn't even know if the door dprs outside the school were locked from the inside. most of those doors according to him had to be locked from the outside. the glass surrounding the doors to the school, there's no mesh there. easy for a bullet to get through. so even if the doors were locked, he could have shot through the glass, pop the door, he was still going to be able to do what he did. one of the, i think, key things about this, yesterday, mccraw talked about the fact, we've seen images of this particular classroom and school building that it appears that windows could have been used either for law enforcement to distract or engage the shooter. he confirmed that yesterday. it's not as if this was a closed off classroom and just the

doors. and the only way to get in was just through the doors. in fact, that wasn't the case. there were windows outside. that's a key thing as i talk to experts current and retired law enforcement, what about the windows there was an opportunity to engage that shooter. if he's engaged with police, you know what he's not doing? he's not shooting little kids. he fired six rounds from the course of -- from the time the police showed up at the door, to the moment they actually got through that door. he fired six rounds. so where did those six rounds go? it's horrifying to think of these were kids based on images we had yesterday. they were huddled in their respective corners of their classroom. they did the thing that they were taught to do. although no there is a debate whether we should be telling kids to lock down and huddle in classrooms when the advice, frankly, for adults is to run. when you hear someone shooting, you run. we teach kids to huddle up in classrooms. i think that's something that has to be reviewed here.

i think another thing, the door -- there was an issue with the door that apparently was never actually repaired. it didn't matter if the teacher tried to lock the door. according to the video from yesterday, the shooter was able to go at least on one occasion into the hallway. whether or not the door was locked is immaterial. just wasn't in a position to actually get in. as he talked about, this situation, if they had tried the door, they would have found out it would open. there was no need to wait for keys. even then, one of the basic procedures, one of the things always talked about in public safety circles. there's a particular device that can be affixed to the exterior of a public building that device, that lock box, did not exist. it's something that exists for firefighters, first responders to go there to know the master keys were always there. they weren't there. one other thing, we spent so

much money in this country particularly after 9/11 on homeland security and preparedness. one of the biggest lessons, firefighters were going up through building where they did not have proper radio communications, nypd and ndny couldn't talk back and forth. we learned that the radios of all of the police officers including the police officers who were assigned to that school district did not and could not work inside of this school. how we're so here so long after 9/11 is truly puzzling. >> tom, as you said, the kids did what they were taught to do. the officers did not do what they were taught to do. their training as such. it feels like every day as joe and mika were saying, another headline, i keep coming back to the anguish of these parents how they're children could have been saved. we're seeing officers with heavy firearms in the hallways with an unlocked door. we know some children died on the way to the hospital.

even if they had been saved a few minutes earlier, perhaps they could have survived. what happens next here? will there be disciplinary action, and what recourse do the parents have? are there law automatics in the offing? >> well, certainly, lawsuits. the d.a. has enlisted a expert. to try to determine how many kids, certainly, we know from the teacher eva morales that they were alive and perhaps could have -- could still be alive, if it had not been for this response. if that's the case, other charges for the incident commander, meet arrendondo. and there are some texas statutes that i could see applying potentially here. that's something that we need more information and legal analysis needs to be done.

but it sure sounds to me, listening to some of the testimony of mccraw, some of the charges have not been ruled out and that's highly unusual. because typically to something you said before, jon, examining the shootings and there are mistakes made from time to time and no response is perfect. but to actually charge somebody for the behavior and decisions they made, that would be failure significant. i don't think that's ruled out yet. nobody has ruled that out to us. that's what we really need to watch. >> tom, you mentioned the teacher killed, eva morales, she actually called her husband who is a police officer, as she was dying inside her classroom. he was actually inside the school and trying to make his way through the hallway to get to her. but the other officers stopped him. they took away his gun. and they escorted him away from the scene. that was confirmed yesterday by

a state investigator. nbc's tom winter, thank you very much. many more questions on this. up next, we're going to turn back to yesterday's january 6th hearing. democratic congressman adam schiff who led yesterday's hearing is our guest next hour. meanwhile, on capitol hill, the senate is moving forward with its bipartisan gun bill. one of the lead negotiators, senator chris murphy, joins us live in just a few moments. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. g "morning " we'll be right back. it up a notch with smoky- baja chipotle sauce? yep, they're constantly refreshing. y'all get our own commercial! subway keeps refreshing and-

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♪♪ welcome back to "morning joe." it's 7:20 on the east coast. if you have to be at work by 8:00 a.m., you only have about 30, 35 more minutes in bed and then you probably -- >> yeah. >> -- then you probably need to

get up and start getting ready. >> some people just like roll over and turn their computers on. >> okay. hey, as my good friend john heilemann says, if you got 'em, smoke 'em. hey, john, listen, i'm on the twitter machine right now. >> yeah. yeah. joe. >> here's what's trending. are you ready for this? >> please do. >> i didn't see this because i don't join the twitter machine much every day. an image of the joe biden article that the story is fabricated fact-checkers say. so people were spreading around, trumpers were spreading around yesterday, a supposed "the atlantic" article about the heroism of joe biden's fall. these are things that i come in contact with no the plandimock

was a lie. no, those under the table are not -- no, talking about it and by the way, these are people with advanced degrees that you have to explain this to. >> yeah. >> these are lawyers. >> so, here we've got this story that i'm going to be hearing about five years from now, oh, mare, but what about the time "the atlantic" called joe biden's fall heroic? once again, this is the culture we live in. you say good god, you were able to get an advanced degree. you were able to get a doctor, an advanced degree. a hedge fund decided to hire you. you obviously had something to make these people think you can punch at a high level. you can't even do a basic google check before you spew political bs at me and make me explain?

really, it's maddening and it happening every single day. >> well, it turns out, joe, literacy and media literacy are not synonymous. and there are many people, especially people on the older age of the age spectrum, i'm afraid that would include me and you. definitely includes mike. >> yeah. >> who like to look at social media and just are gullible. they assume somehow if it gets put on twitter or facebook or instagram or one of these other platforms, those are like the only three i know. there are a bunch of other ones that the kids apparently look like, like tiktok -- >> snap -- >> snap something. people assume if it's out there, it must be true. what's incredible, we've gone from where the fake news, where the madeup disinformation, that back in 2016 it was like hillary clinton had parkinson's -- you know, assertions of things that are false designed to damage the

person. now, we're playing bait shots where the maga right makes things that aren't negative about joe biden but are supposedly the liberal media praising joe biden in some untoward or wanted way. and ewing that to undermine their enemies. it's like a house of mirrors out there. and it is amazing, how many people, even today, as you said, otherwise intelligent people, people who ostensibly have i.q.s in three digits who look at something if they see it on their phone it must be true. which the exact opposite is increasingly true. there's more and more out there that is fraudulent and driven by some political ideological agenda. everybody has to take a deep breath, if we're all as gullible about what's on our phones, boy, we're in big trouble. >> well, mika, i've told you this before, i have a friend

who -- older than me been golfing with the same three buddies for about 30 years. >> uh-huh. >> and they've had a weekly game through good and bad. for 30 years. and my friend said, when trump got in office, he started getting facebook posts from one of the friends that they'd been going out weekly for 30 years. and they're the most outrageous claims, the most outrageous conspiracy theories. the most outrageous theories about democrats. the outrageous lies about donald trump. and he kept saying to this friend, please stop sending me these fake facebook posts. they just continued and continued. and finally, he picked up the phone and said, listen, i don't want our friendship of 30 years

to, you know, be pulled apart by this. but you know what you're sending me are lies. you know -- you're a bright man. you're just sending those lies because it reinforces what you want to believe, right? >> i think -- >> and the guy said -- you know, you're right. he goes, well stop sending them to me. and let's just golf. he said okay. but he's still sending them out to everybody else. knowing they were lies because it made him feel good. that's the political culture that we have out there right now, this biden lie about -- oh, by the way, breaking news, joe biden -- joe biden fell off his bike. everybody in trump world want you to know. >> you'll see that -- >> donald trump, by the way, wanted his vice president murdered on january 6th. they don't want you to know that. but, anyway, yeah, whatever is important to you, that's fine. but, of course, take a stupid story and then, mika, mangle the

truth in that stupid story and make it something that it's just not. and hope the lie sticks. >> i do think there's a large -- there's a large segment of the population that believes a lot of this stuff and doesn't understand the difference. and that's a problem, too. >>le they do, but, mika, they choose to believe it. if they just did basic fact checking, if they just spent three minutes on any one of these lies. >> i know. i just think i'm giving some people benefit of the doubt of understanding just because it looks like news print on facebook, and it looks like a headline that doesn't mean it's the truth, that is backed by a respected publishing company, by a news organization. i don't think they understand the difference. it's something we need to talk about. >> well, but they do. i think most of them do. i'll just say -- i'll just say again -- people go, oh, but i look at chinese religious cult

websites because i can't trust reuters. really? again, i want to repeat this advice, "the wall street journal" is owned by rupert murdoch. "the wall street journal" has great reporters that do their job. there's a wall between news and editorial over there still. if you can't trust anybody else, read "the wall street journal" to get your facts. and you'll find out that most of the bs that you're sending around, they're lies. >> but it's even within the structure of these organizations. like, for example, you have "the wall street journal." and you also have fox news which didn't even cover the hearings. they had joe biden falling off his bike on a loop, as you pointed out but in the beginning they didn't -- >> well, i think they're starting to cover them now. >> they are. >> which is great. >> that's interesting. that is good. >> again, we're all about -- we're all about conversion. we're all about conversion.

>> all right. >> whenever you come into the vineyard to start working, god bless you. work for the truth. let's get back to yesterday's hearing, number four on the attack on the capitol. georgia secretary of state brad raffensperger who denied trump's request to, quote, find the exact number of votes he needed to win in the state, spoke about the length he went to investigate claims made by the former president that thousands of dead people voted in georgia. >> in their lawsuits, they allege 10,315 dead people. we found two dead people, when i wrote my letter to congress that's dated january 6th. and subsequent to that, we found two more, that's one, two, three -- a total of four. the numbers are the numbers. the numbers don't lie. there's many allegations and we investigated every single one of them. i challenged my team, did we miss anything? every single allegation we checked. we ran down the rabbit trail to make sure that our numbers were

accurate. i've been traveling through the state of georgia for a year now. and simply put, in a nutshell, what happened in the fall of 2020 is that 28,000 georgians skimmed the presidential race. and yet, they voted down ballot in other races. and the republican congressman ended up getting 33,000 more votes than president trump. and that's why president trump came up short. >> let's bring in msnbc contributor mike barnicle. msnbc legal analyst charles coleman. and in atlanta, georgia, u.s. special correspondent for bbc news katty kay joins us. >> katy what brad raffensperger said about georgia is what ron johnson got caught on tape saying about wisconsin. the fact is, republicans did very well on state level, local

level, and national level, with one exception, that's the top line, the presidential line, because donald trump offended just enough voters to lose in what was otherwise a good republican year. >> year. it's interesting to hear brad raffensperger say those numbers, he says it in a deadpan way, he's been going throughout the country saying basically those same things. basically, you had republicans doing well downballot in state of georgia but you had enough republicans who decided they just weren't going to vote for donald trump. it's the same story i've been hearing here from republicans who say that donald trump turned a lot of people off. that's why he lost the state of georgia. it was so interesting. i spent the day yesterday with a family, voters listening to those hearings yesterday. three generations of voters. the grandmother who first got her right to vote as a black woman in 1965. and the son and granddaughter, they all said, look -- they're

democrats. we don't like raffensperger, we don't like sterling, we don't agree with policies or the way elections are run in this state, but they're so glad that they stood up to donald trump and his bullying. they respected them for doing that. they were able to say, democrats to say, there were two republicans who stood up for the rule of law and so glad they did. >> you know, mike barnicle, you strip it all down at the end of the day, you listen to what the secretary of state said and ron johnson caught on camera, it reminds me what republicans said to me it wasn't a grand conspiracy to rig the election, there was just a jerk at the top of the republican ticket and that's why he had so many undervotes compared to every other republican on the ballot. >> you know, the thing that's striking, joe, about the hearings, it involves much more than what happened after the election, much more than what happened on january 6th. this is a crime syndicate that's

been operating in full view of the american public for 4 1/2 years now and they're still at large. which says a lot about us that it takes these hearings to awaken and alert people to the behavior, the criminal behavior, the trump administration. and there is really no way to measure the damage, the deep, deep damage that donald trump and people around him have done to this country. who have seen the exhibits of an important thing, important characteristic at these hearings. it's separate from ideology, rusty bowers, the former speak of the house for arizona, brad raffensperger from georgia, they're republicans and they have an ideology that i think will bring them to vote for donald trump for president maybe to vote for donald trump again for president. but there's another aspect of this hearing. and these people that i think is critical. and it's the aspect of

character. you can't buy character. you can't go to a store and purchase character. you either have it or you don't. rusty bowers had character. now, it's separate from ideology. and jonathan, you were just saying he has indicated he would vote for trump again. that's political, that's ideology. but we're seeing real character at these hearings. brad raffensperger, rusty bowers, others. and character at the end of the day counts. >> so, charles, there's a lot of emotion on this hearing yesterday from mr. bowers, i thought from shaye moss and we heard from her mother ruby freeman in video clips. to mike's point, crime syndicate. there's an idea that a crime was committed. what have you seen from the hearings, on a number of them, on the aspects, runup to january

6th and the day itself have they been put on display for the attorney general to charge donald trump with legal crimes? >> well, jon, you asked me question, i'm going to address it but i don't want to gloss over yesterday. that's arguably one of the most compelling witnesses we've seen take the stage and testify. one of the reasons for that, we've been having obviously the conversation about politics. we've been having the discussion about the criminal element about what's been going on with respect to the january 6th investigation and hearings and everything else coming out. but the human element has been overlooked largely from the first night when we heard the capitol police talk about the terror that they experienced. there was a sense of white nationalism that powered these people on january 6th. and those fingerprints have been all over this conversation, but no one has been able to articulate it the way moss has.

i don't want to gloss over the importance of that. now, to the actual question regarding the criminality that we've seen, my answer is, yes. i do think that the hearings have exposed and unearthed a great degree of different elements of intent that would be necessary to charge donald trump and a number of other people, with a number of other different crimes. i think the beauty of what the hearings have done, they have let out so many different avenues that the doj and merrick garland can potentially pursue around different ways that they can go about a conviction. there's fraud with respect to the grifting that we saw. of course, there's a level of contempt with donald trump on numerous occasions in numerous ways in connection with the fake election and connection to that. my answer is, yes, it's just which avenue the doj decides to pursue. they've been given everything they need. the question is intent. that's the big thing, tying donald trump intent to the actions. and they've done a brilliant job

in bringing that out for the doj and merrick garland so i would say yes. >> you know, john heilemann, we've talked unfortunately for many years about failures of our federal government, failures of politicians and failures of people who should know better in what they do. but i'm reminded this morning something sister margaret would tell us at prince golic catholic high school saying stay positive. she would recite the poem, two inmates looked outside the prison bars one saw mud. let's look at the testimony. people coming forward, people who actually stood in the gap. even after defending donald trump in impeachment proceedings which, of course, i just couldn't grasp. so, you have that side of it. also, let's talk about what happened on capitol hill. not just the january 6th committee hearing that worked. but something that we haven't

seen since sandy hook. something that we didn't see after parkland. something that we didn't see, of course, after one shooting after another. and that is a bipartisan -- a bipartisan deal. on one of the most difficult issues of our time, as far as congress striking deals. we've got to -- we've got a deal on public safety, on gun safety yesterday. i'd say between that bipartisan deal and also the january 6th hearing where republicans and democrats were working together to get to the truth, on one of the most horrific days in american history, that's a pretty good day for congress. >> yeah, joe, who is the -- what's the name of the sister who used to say that? >> sister margaret. >> sister margaret, yeah. i think when i was in catholic school, i was paying less attention to sister mary than to

the pretenders and chrissie hines who wrote we're all in the gutter and some of us are looking at the stars. you're looking at the stars this morning, joe. i like to see it. 14 republicans yesterday in the u.s. senate voted for that bill. that's not just a couple of republicans. that's a big swing on the side. lemire is fact-checking me. i think that's 14 republicans in the senate. so, we got to the point in our politics right now where one republican or two republicans in the senate vote on a democratic bill, we call that bipartisan. this vote yesterday was legit bipartisan. you know, 14's a big number by our current standards. and i don't want to -- you know, you know, this vote is -- does not take away the gravity of the hearings yesterday. the threat to the democracy and all the rest of it. and we are all still in the gutter. but i think there's good reasons at least on that front to be waken up a little bit today. >> i'll just tell you whether you listen to christie hines or

sister margaret in the early '80s, that's good news. let's bring in democratic negotiator in the reform bill, senator chris murphy of connecticut. he's been working tirelessly on new gun safety legislation for a decade. and, senator, i don't know if you dare to follow sister margaret or chrissie hines' advice and look up to the stars and be optimistic, but right now, it seems republicans and democrats have gotten together, at least enough republicans, to make your dream a reality. even if it's just one step forward. >> yeah. it's a pretty significant step forward. i mean, this is the most significant anti-gun violence bill that congress has voted on in 30 years. it's just not one change in the gun laws, five different changes, closing the boyfriend loophole, helping states fund

red flag laws that allow them to take guns away from individuals threatening to hurt helms or others. we put a de facto waiting period on purchases of guns, assault weapons, by under 21 buyers. we also put $15 billion into mental health and school and community safety. this is a significant piece of legislation. one of the most significant that congress will consider this year. and as you said, it is fairly remarkable that we were able to get such a big bipartisan vote yesterday. i think that vote might get bigger over the course of the week. and it shows that ultimately democracy doesn't allow 90% of the american public to not get their way for too long. it was kind of stunning ten years ago when a background checks bill that was posted by 90% of americans failed. it only got a couple of republican votes. ten years later after we built a movement around the issue of anti-gun violence, we now can get 14, 15, 16, 17 republicans a

clear majority in the senate to be able to pass bills like this that save lives. that's a significant achievement for a movement that's taken a lot of losses over the last ten years but now can hold their head high. >> senator, still recognizing that there's a lot more work to be done. but looking at this significant step, as you put it, what was it that you think got bipartisan support? what was it that moves the meter this time finally? one could argue, you've been waiting and working for years for a day like this. >> so, i think when members of the senate went home for the memorial day recess, the week after uvalde, they encountered parents and families and kids expressing a level of fear and anxiety that they have never seen before. that's what i witnessed in connecticut. and when we come back from that break, there was a sense of

mission. a sense that we couldn't let these kids down. no way to continue to let the kids go to school with no hope to with laws to make them safer. so i just think the feeling that members got when they went back to their states and districts was something different than they had felt in the past pipe also give a lot of credit to the negotiators, john cornyn and thom tillis on the republican side were committed to getting results and committed to staying at the table. kyrsten sinema was a force of nature in these groups. he was able to broaden the group and get more on the table. there were members of senate to help get us to last night's big vote. >> senator, i've been traveling around the country, talking to people who are skeptical about these new laws saying it won't make any difference. you can talk to them for a minute and just explain how what the bill proposes -- how it will actually have an impact in real

terms? >> so, listen, this bill is a compromise. it doesn't go as far as i would like to go. it certainly goes farther than a lot of republicans would like it to go. but there is no doubt this bill is going to save thousands of lives. we have $750 million in this bill to help states enact red flag laws. these are laws right now, every day, that save lives in this country because they allow for police departments and courts to go in and temporarily take guns away from people who pose a threat to their community. just, i think, last week in connecticut, we used our law to go take guns away from a young man who was threatening to shoot up schools. that might have saved dozens of lives. but states need help implementing those laws. we give them that help. the boyfriend loophole, this is a loophole in federal law that allows for domestic abusers, men who beat up their girlfriends, to continue to own their guns. states who have supposed that loophole show there's a 10%

reduction in the number of intimate partners who are killed in gun homicides. that's now a national law after they pass the bill. that will save lives and it's not a small amount of money, we're actually building out a brand-new system of community health centers targeted underserved areas. that's going to save thousands of lives in and of itself separate from the gun provision. so this is a substantial piece of gun legislation. no, it's not everything that we want. but i'm going to tell you once we show republicans that there is more political gain than harm in voting for things like this it's going to open up a lot more possibilities in the future. >> senator, we just put up a listing of the elements of this crime that you just addressed -- you just addressed some of them. one in specific is, it clarifies who is considered a gun seller. does this mean that gun shows off the back of pickup trucks in virginia or north carolina, where people go and load up on

guns and put them in the trunks of their cars, they come up the new jersey turnpike to new york and hartford and places in the north what does it do? who is a gun seller? and what is it under this legislation? >> so, this is probably the least talked about provision in this law. but it's going to be, i think, impactful. in one of the mass shootings in texas, a mentally ill individual who would have been barred from buying a gun, by the background check system went online and found a seller arms list who would sell him guns without a background check. why? because that seller, even though he was selling dozens of guns a year, or over a dozen guns a year was not licensed as a federal dealer and therefore was not required to do background checks. what we do in this legislation is clarify that somebody like that who is selling ten or more guns a year for profit online is a gun dealer and needs to

conduct background checks. so my belief is that provision alone is going to cause thousands of more gun sales in this country to go through the gun check system. that could have saved lives in the odesa mass shooting and in the future. >> john coleman, chime in on the progress made here but also some of the issues trying to get guns already out there, out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them. the toothpaste is out of the tube on so many levels. >> well, i think you raise a good point there. and i think that's a big part of what the problem is, in terms of where we go from here, it's fantastic that we have this legislation. speaking as a former prosecutor and now a civil rights attorney, my concern is how policing is going to basically enforcing the laws as it pertains to different guns that are already in circulation. i think that we've already seen in different communities a very

significant era of people being targeted in communities and in different places across the country, with respect to unlawful search and seizure. and so while i'm happy that these measures are in place going forward, i am still very much so concerned about the effect of policing as it pertains to dealing with the guns that are already there. some of that, when that train has left the station, as you put it, with regard to the toothpaste, it's a difficult issue. so for me, i'm really concerned about, you know, now that we've sort of put a back stop, if you will, on things coming into the market, what are we going to do? and how are we going to go about dealing with those things already on the market that is a concern for me. it's a concern -- it should be a concern for prosecutors. it should be a concern for anyone who is invested in protecting the civil rights of americans. >> a lot still to do. senator chris murphy, thank you very much for being on this morning. thank you for your service. charles coleman, thank you as well. we really appreciate it.

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is a dangerous cancer on the body politic. if you can convince americans

that they cannot trust their own elections, that any time they lose it is somehow illegitimate, then what is left, but violence to determine who should govern? >> and congressman fourth house select committee on the january 6th attack on the capitol. bob woodward and walter isakson will join the conversation, but first, president biden is expected to call on congress to temporarily suspend the federal gas tax. joining us now, amos hockstein. he's become the president's point person on energy security following russia's invasion of ukraine. thanks for being on. i guess, first of all, you know, this comes to beat the pulling of the gas tax at least temporarily, how much is that really going to help with gas prices? >> well, first, good morning. good to be here. as you said the president will

call for congress to suspend the federal gas tax for three months. that's about 18 cents per gallon of the federal taxes and he's going to call on governors across the country to follow his lead and to do the same either by suspending their tax, their state taxes on gasoline or taking similar measures like rebates and others. the average state tax is about 30 cents. so altogether that could have a real impact of 50 cents per gallon on the american public. >> good morning. it's jonathan lemire. the gas tax is something that the white house had debated over time and it at first opposed and now they're coming around to it. it seems like a lot of not just republicans, but some democrats are squeamish about this. how are you going to get them to change their minds? >> look, since putin amassed troops outside ukraine and

ultimately invaded ukraine and the unprecedented actions that the president in rallying the world together has taken from sanctioning much of their banking industry, and the energy sector, that's had an impact of almost $2 a gallon for the american public. the president has said consistently that we'll continue to stand up to putin and support ukraine and freedom, but at the same time there's a cost and he'll do whatever he can to mitigate those costs on the american family. so i think the place that we're in today really requires additional action and these kind of increases at the pump, i think it's the right thing to do. the president believes we can suspend this tax during the busy summer driving season to give some breathing room for american families, and i think he looks forward to working with congress to get that done, but it's important to note that this is the culmination of historic, unprecedented actions that the

president has taken. he's increased these released 180 million barrels from the strategic petroleum reserve and they've added 260 million and 240 million globally of reserves from the market and he's called on the increase for production on refining products so we have the ability to reduce the price at the pump over time. i think this suspension of the gas tax will give an immediate relief during this summer. >> if you get to a point where you've got the federal tax and the state tax and you're getting 50 cents on the gallon and that will be very welcome by people, but how are you going to reinstate that after three months? no one will thank you for turning around and saying by the way, here's another 50 cents a gallon for your gas. i just don't see how you put it back on again. >> well, i think that we're going to suspend it for three

months only during a time when we have seasonally, we always have an increase in demand for gasoline, an increased demand for diesel during the summer. after september when that demand comes down it will enable the prices to come down, as well. in the meantime, this is also part of a broader effort for president to work with the industry and to see what their ideas, what can we do, and what can we do to invest some of the record profits back into increasing production, and increasing refining -- in other words, bringing some of these refineries back. during the pandemic they shut down refineries which is causing a lot of the crunch that we're in now for gasoline and diesel. some of them can't come back, but some of them can. this will give us time top do what it should be looking on for additional capacity and that will bring down prices in the long term.

>> presidential coordinator at the state department, amos hockstein, thank you very much for being on the show. >> katty kay, thank you, as well. we'll get back to the january 6th committee. georgia electionses official talked about debunking the big lie even to members of his own family and we'll be joined by pulitzer prize-winning associate editor of "the washington post" bob woodward. we're back in one minute. bob woodward we're back in one minute helps alleviate stress on skin. so you can get back in sync. new dove men. a restorative shower for body and mind.

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did you ask mr. giuliani for proof of these allegations of fraud that he was making? >> on multiple occasions, yes. >> did you ever -- did you ever receive from him that evidence either during the call, after the call or to this day? >> never. there was no -- no evidence being presented of any strength. evidence can be hearsay. it's still evidence, but it's still hearsay. strong, judicial, quality evidence, anything that would say to me you have a doubt. deny your oath. i will not do that, and on more than -- on more than one occasion throughout all this that has been brought up and it is a tenet of my faith that the

constitution is divinely inspired. my most basic foundation of beliefs and so for me to do that because somebody just asked me to is foreign to my very being. i will not do it. >> wow. arizona's conservative republican house speaker rusty bowers on his response to the pressure from donald trump and his team to help overturn the 2020 presidential election. every witness who testified yesterday spoke of being threatened by violence from trump supporters. we will play clips of lawmakers from michigan, pennsylvania who said they were tossed after refusing to go along with the big lie. let's get right to yesterday's dramatic fourth round of public

testimony in front of the january 6th committee. nbc news senior capitol hill correspondent garrett haake has the details. >> the january 6th committee detailing a relentless pressure campaign by former president trump and his allies before the capitol, tack, aimed at overturning mr. trump's election loss. >> the president's loss was and is a dangerous cancer on the body politic. rusty bowers testified about calls from mr. trump and his allies pushing him to overturn joe biden's victory in the state as bowers repeatedly asked trump turn rudy giuliani for evidence of widespread fraud that giuliani could not produce. >> my recollection, he said, we've got lots of theories. we just don't have the evidence. >> in an emotional moment insisting he would not violate his oath of office to support the former president's claims. >> for me to do that because somebody just asked me to? is foreign to my very being.

i will not do it. >> bowers is denying a new statement from mr. trump alleging bowers told him the election had been rigged. georgia's republican secretary of state and his deputy on the receiving end of this recorded phone call from the former president long after the state was called for mr. biden. >> i just want to find 11,780 votes which is one more than we have because we won the state. >> the fact checkers checking the claim about the election and explaining why he lost their state. >> what happened in the fall of 2020 is that 28,000 georgians skipped the presidential race and yet they voted down a ballot in other races and the republican congressmen ended up getting 33,000 more votes than president trump and that's why president trump came up short. >> a former georgia election worker and her mother caught up in a bogus conspiracy theory

about illegal votes attacked by mr. trump on the same call. >> it's affected my life in a major way, in every way all because of lies. >> do you know how to feels to have the president of the united states target you? >> joining us now, professor of history at tulane university walter isakson, and pulitzer prize-winning associate editor of "the washington post," bob woodward. he is the co-author of "all the president's men" and he is out with the 50th edition on a foreword on what watergate means today. >> so, bob, we were talking about watergate and how goldwater went and other republicans told nixon it was over. we didn't have anyone in the united states senate that would do that for donald trump although there were cabinet members talking about the 25th

amendment. i will say, though, these line of witnesses, these trumpers, people who voted for donald trump, supported donald trump all of the way through, but are now testifying against donald trump, very striking. it's almost like i'm sure the analogy is imperfect and you can correct me. that's why we are so glad you're here. it's almost like a squad of john deans coming forward to tell the truth about the cancer that was growing, not only on this presidency, but that that he wanted to spread to our political system and our democracy. >> it's astonishing, and i was thinking back to the nixon era and watergate. you may remember this or old timers like myself might remember, one of nixon's most prominent henchmen, charles

colson who was special counsel in the white house said publicly, i will walk over my own grandmother to get richard nixon reelected. now we have with trump, literally saying i will walk over your grandmother to get reelected and hold power. a stunning, memorable -- to me, and i think to people watching this realize this is exactly what senator sam irvin who ran the watergate committee said it's the lust for political power. you can hear it in trump's insistent cadence in his voice of just pushing, pushing. so is this -- somehow is his

right or that there is a necessity in him holding power and i think this will be him remembered as trump saying i am going to walk over your grandmother to hold this political power in which he was not entitled to according to the law and the constitution. >> you know, walter isakson, we've been talking in the last couple of days about fascism and how trumpism is fascism. you look at the violent imagery that's used in television ads and watching that over 100 republicans candidates used guns in their ads. we have one of the most extreme version of that, we have members of congress, trumpists who are

using imagery that suggests using violence against democratic members of congress. you had the threats that we heard yesterday from the testimony, people who have been threatened with violence because they wouldn't violate their constitutional oaths and then, think, you have the use of violence itself on january 6th. an ultranationalist movement that uses violence as a means to reach their political ends. if that's not fascism, walter, i don't know what is. it could happen here. it is happening here right now. >> one of the things you saw yesterday is one of the oldest themes in human history which is collaborationism versus being able to stand up to what you talked about, authoritarianism, i remember the president of czechoslovakia, but it goes all of the way back to sophocles,

and we started seeing it yesterday from more and more people that were greatly honored and i think history will remember those that were collaborationists to those who knew it was wrong versus those who say i have a higher duty which is what it is all about. >> the committee played depositions from top state lawmakers from michigan and pennsylvania who say they were targeted after resisting trump's pressure to overturn the election. >> either you or speaker chatfield, did you make the point to the president that you were not going to do anything that violated michigan law? >> i believe we do. whether or not those were the exact words or not, i think the words that i would more likely use is we are going to follow the law. >> nevertheless, the pressure continued. the next day president trump tweeted quote, hopefully the

courts or legislatures will have the courage to do what has to get done to maintain the elections and the united states itself. the world is watching. he posted multiple messages on facebook listing the contact information for state officials and urging his supporters to contact them to, quote, demand a vote on decertification. in one of those posts president trump disclosed mike shirky's personal phone number to his millions of followers. >> all i remember was receiving over just shy of 4,000 text messages over a short period of time calling to take action. >> pennsylvania house speaker brian cutler received daily voice mails from trump's lawyers in the last week of november. >> mr. speaker, this is rudy giuliani and jennaelis. we're calling you together because we'd like to discuss

obviously the election. >> hello, mr. speaker, this is jennaelis, and i am here with mayor giuliani. >> hey, brian. it's rudy. i have something important to call to your attention that changes things. >> cutler felt it was inappropriate and asked lawyers to tell giuliani to stop calling. >> i understand that you don't want to talk to me now. i just want to bring facts to your attention and talk to you as a fellow republican. >> steve bannon announced a protest at cutler's home. >> we're getting on the road and we're going to go to cutler and we'll go to offices and if we have to, we'll go to homes. >> i don't remember the exact number. there was at least three, i think, outside either my district offers or my home and you are correct, my son -- my then 15-year-old son was home by himself for the first one. all of my personal information

was online and it was my personal email, my personal cell phone, my home phone number. in fact, we had to disconnect our home phone for about three days because it would ring all hours of the night and it would fill up with messages. >> brian cutler, we're outside. >> bob woodward, listening to those clips of various republican operatives and republican lawyers, it strikes me that g. gordon liddy, james mccord, judge john seem almost quaint 50 years later in comparison to what we're listening to and looking at today. they broke in at night and we're seeing in broad daylight and have been seeinging in broad daylight now for years. we're seeing people like steve bannon, rudy giuliani, mark meadows, chief of staff to the president of the united states conspiring, really, to take down the constitution.

does it strike you that there's a real difference 50 years ago that the operatives of the republican party tried to do what they're trying to do today? >> it's a really good question, and what's worse, nixon subverted the constitution and the law and ran this very covert effort to destroy the strongest candidate against him and the democratic party, senator musky so he got a weaker candidate. it's ugly, vicious, illegal, but you are right. there's something out in the open about this that what it is saying to people is you could be a target for your political views that you have that are

supported by evidence. that's what's stunning about this and i was doing some reporting in the last several days, and i think what is important is former president trump is telling people in his inner circle that he is going to run. in fact, he is saying in five words, i am going to do it. now we know in trump world, when he says something like that that it's probably 90% going to happen, but he is in this situation where i think lots of people -- republicans are backing away from him. a year ago, 70% of republicans wanted to -- for him to run. now it's down to 60, maybe 56% where 30, 35% want someone else.

so his campaign of i'm going to run in 2024 against what happened in 2020 is not working. i think republicans, i've had some experience talking to them, and they don't buy this trump line of the election was stolen, and so is he going to run on this or, you know, as we know, when you run for president you have to run on the future. what are you going to do, not what happened four years ago? it will not sell and so i think he's in a really interesting position. i'm sorry to go on about this,

but it -- somebody who really knows this world of republican land if you look at the republicans now, 50% of them would walk off the cliff for trump. 20% now want to the push trump off the cliff and 30% just want to win. if he cannot convince people that he has a plan for the future and can win, he -- he's in trouble even in republican primaries. so he's now, i think, going to -- on the next several weeks likely, but you never know what trump's going to do, declare that he's winning to create a spectacle, a focus on him which, of course, is what he likes, but

i think that's the future and the future is this -- i go back to it, incessant, undying lust for political power. >> will, and also the protections of the presidency which he does not have right now. joining us now, a member of the select committee investigating the january 6th attack on the capitol. democratic congressman, adam schiff of california. he led yesterday's hearing and walter isaacson has the first question. walter? >> thank you, congressman. thank you, mika. lots of times hearings like this have certain purposes. i was talking to sara longwell, a republican focus group leader and she said it's really moved the leader especially pro-trump republicans no longer want him to run and sometimes it's a criminal referral, but let's leave that aside. what type of legislation do you think might come out of this hearing or should come out?

>> well, and to address your point, one of the things i thought it was very important to get across yesterday was we talk about the attack on our democracy. that's kind of an intangible idea for most americans. we want to put a human face on what does that look like because it is an attack on individuals carreying out their roles in a democracy. in terms of what will come out of all of this legislatively, look, there are reforms that we're looking at. there's an electoral count act and a centuries old and deeply ambiguous and it turned on an interpretation of this, we would be in a real constitutional crisis and there are other reforms, as well, that we're looking at, but at the end of the day, my takeaway, frankly, two impeachments and insurrection, if we don't have people in congress willing to give meaning to the oath of office like public servants did yesterday, none of it works.

you can have the best drafted laws and the best procedures and people always find a way to undermine them if their oath doesn't mean anything and if they're not willing to accept the truth and so a key part of these hear suggests to get the truth out and to expose the danger we're facing. >> congressman schiff, elise jordan here. news broke that there is even more documentary footage of donald trump and his family giving interviews and hearing what they actually think about the election and what they thought at the time and their strategy. can you tell us about those -- that footage and what do you know? >> well, it's hard for me to go into evidence that we are obtaining, but the reality is we are obtaining new information every day and some of it involves video footage. some of it involves people who are willing to come forward and

we will be displaying some of this new information to the public perhaps in the near future and this has been the challenge with the hearings that as we prepare for one, we get information and we want to incorporate it and it's a continuing struggle because we want to get this out and we want to get it out quickly, but we also want to get it out in the way the public can understand, but yes, we're getting new information and we will be providing that to the public. >> it was striking yesterday at the end of the hearing that congresswoman cheney makes a direct appeal to pat cipollone to be white house counsel to be a part of these hearings. can you give us an update as to where things stand with him? will we be hearing from him? will he be testifying from the committee? your colleague made it sound like he was very central to what you want to do. >> he had his view on the phony

elector's scheme and there's nothing quite like hearing it from some of the principals. as you've seen, when we've taken the step of subpoenaing people holding them to criminal contempt we have about a 50/50 chance to get the department of just toys get them to prosecute. we have to use moral assuation at times and get them to demonstrate what patriotism looks like and we would encourage him to do the same and our vice chair made a personal appeal to that, whether or not we're successful and if not, what steps we might take and we'll find out soon enough. >> congressman, let's talk about the schedule of the hearing. i understand that some of the hearings may be delayed a bit as we move forward, maybe spaced out a bit more which certainly

makes sense and there's an awful lot to digest after each one of these hearings. so can you talk about the strategy in just as far as getting all of the information in front of the american people, spacing it out in a way that too much isn't thrown out there all at once? >> sure, and you know, as you might imagine, we have a mountain of information and we have to pick what is most important to show the american people and how can we show it in a way that's accessible and engaging for people and how do you do that when you continue to get new information? we have a very talented staff, but it's not an infinite resource and so we're trying to put all of that together and figure out, what's the schedule that makes the most sense of the information we're getting? it's a fluid process, but i

think we're doing as good a job as we can do. this is my third major investigations. i wish i'd had these kind of resources for the other two and a staff like this dedicated to the task and frankly, working with committee members. we are all on the same page, democrats and republicans united in ourp purpose and as you can see from former president trump's congress upset with mckarthsy for doing what trump wanted him to do was reject the committee and reject participation. it's been helpful where democrats and republicans are working together and want to hear what the witnesses have to say and not what each other has to say. >> it has been striking. a member of the january 6th select committee congressman adam schiff. thank you so much. >> thank you. >> i want to talk briefly, and i want to think of another congressional hearing that has grabbed the public's attention as much as this. i suspect it's watergate and

maybe the oliver north hearings back in '87, but regardless it's been a generation, has it not? this has been a striking series of committee meetings. >> i am somewhat surprised because i thought this would be a part of the noise of the background, but it has risen to the level of what the watergate hearings were almost 50 years ago and it's starting to sink in. i think that you can even see it on rupert murdoch's papers and you see "the wall street journal," we have to move on from donald trump, so i think it's having that effect that surprises me and it's part of what congressman schiff said that they were able to do it not in a partisan dispute matter, but in a bipartisan way where everybody was just trying to get out the facts and these people, especially the republicans who testified yesterday who were,

you know, just true to their convicts, i'm surprised that this would not ripple through that effect. if you're in a trial and it's a friend or a family member that testifies against your interest, that impacts the jury far more than somebody who has been your sworn business or political enemy. bob woodward here. you've talked about it. you've got trump supporters and everyone in that picture voted for donald trump in 2016 and probably voted for donald trump in the 2020 and yet they're the ones that are bringing damning testimony against trump and its conspiracy to take over the federal government. >> yes. it's very powerful. interesting you would raise the question about 2016. some very serious, as you know, both democrats and republicans do lots of polling, but some

republican polling has asked the essential question of trump voters who voted for him in 2016, but did not in 2020, and so they dug into this and they discovered and i think the polling on these attitudes has really high credibility, and it turned out that the difference was people thought that trump from evidence watching him was demeaning people in the way he dealt with them, what he said, and demeaning his opponents and people did not like that. they are turned off. there is a trump persona that we see and understand, and i think it's working less and less. the question they think goes

through all of this not just whether trump is going to run, but i think he is going to run is what's going to be the reason, the rationale for the candace, and it can't be the election loss in 2020 when there's no evidence, zero evidence. people talk about the big lie and i don't know if that's the right turn, but robert paxton, our book peril. costa and i worked very hard to find people who had evidence of fraud and two of the biggest trump supporters, senator lindsay graham and senator mike lee of utah conducted their own investigations, in-depth and went through all of that paperwork that rudy giuliani put out and there's nothing and this

came out yesterday and how many people who were under age voted or weren't eligible? two. not 8,000, and so the point is there's just no evidence. none. >> right. >> zero. >> and that's what we heard time and again. "the washington post," bob woodward, as always, thank you so much. mika, one thing that bob points out. it ends up that for at least a small segment of republican voters in 2020, people who voted for him in 2016, but not in 2020, the vileness, the personal insults, the constant attacks, the angry tweets. >> bullying. >> the bullying, the calls for violence, it just became too much for at least a small segment of the republican party, and as we say on this show all the time, this is a 50/50

nation. even small shifts in the electorate have huge, overwhelming impacts on the direction of this country, the direction of washington, d.c., and again, we heard from brad raffensperger yesterday and what we heard from ron johnson several months ago and that is that republicans did well up and down the ballot in a lot of races, but donald trump ran behind them all, and he ran behind them all because as bob said there is a portion of the electorate that have just had enough and after these january 6th hearings, maybe it's not 50% of the republican party, maybe it's not a 20% shift, even a 5% shift, a 10% shift. it means his political career is over. >> well, that's not including any potential legal questions or moves that may come out of this

that -- that may move the justice department to ask more questions. still ahead on "morning joe," more new details about the police response to the uvalde school shooting. responding officers waited for over an hour including for a door key that was never needed. and coming up in the fourth hour of "morning joe," we're breaking down yesterday's biggest primary results including trump's flip-flop and gop senate race and katie britt who got a late endorsement of trump beat out her pick. "morning joe," we'll be right back. ck "morning joe," we'll be right back but, at upwork, we found her. she's in prague between the ideal cup of coffee and a truly impressive synthesizer collection. and you can find her right now

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lot of news, as well. it was over the police response to the uvalde school shooting where state senators heard new details about the botched response to the massacre. the states had a public safety called that response, quote, an abject failure. nbc news national correspondent gabe gutierrez has the very latest. >> these still images from surveillance images reviewed by the austin american statesman and the texas tribune, but not by nbc news showed multiple officers armed with rifles and ballistic shields inside robb elementary as the massacre unfolded. >> the law enforcement response to the attack at robb elementary was an abject failure and antithetical to everything we learned over the last two decades since the columbine massacre. >> the head of the texas department of public safety stephen mcgraw said three minutes after the gunmen entered the school there were enough armed officers to stop him,

instead they waited for an hour and 14 minutes. >> the on-scene commanders waited for a radio and rifles, and he waited for shields and then he waited for s.w.a.t. lastly, he waited for a key that was never needed. >> mcgraw says he believes the doors to the classrooms where 19 students and two teachers were killed were unlocked. he provided the most detailed time line of the carnage so far based on surveillance footage, body camera video and 911 calls. at 11:20 a.m. the shooter crashed his vehicle into a ditch and a minute later the teacher called 911 reporting a man of a car. at 11:31 sped into the parking lot, but drove by the shooter. within there minutes, three uvalde police officers with two rifles entered the building. seconds later so did two school district officers including chief pete arredondo.

he called the police landline from his cell phone. we don't have enough fire power. we have pistols. that was directly contradictory. >> the only thing stopping officers from entering room 111 and 112 was the on-scene commander. who decided to place the lives of officers before the lives of children. the officer his weapons. the children had none. >> over the next 30 minutes 911 calls from students inside the classroom began. more ballistic shields arrived. chief arredondo requests the master key and the gunman fires more rounds. chief arredondo says we've lost two kid. these walls are thin. if he starts shooting we'll have to lose more kids. i hate to say we have put those to the side right now. a minute later, people are going to ask why we're taking so long. we have to preserve the rest of the life. >> the torrents of illanguage cal staples are preposterous.

>> chief arredondo says we're having a blank problem because the room is locked. he's got an ar-15 and shooting like krizy. >> not until 12:50 does a border patrol tactical team shoot the gunman. >> he needs to be held accountable. he needs to answer questions publicly and provide information for us. >> that was nbc's gabe gutierrez reporting and coming up, millions of americans are set to hit the airports next week if they can actually catch a flight, if it doesn't get canceled. we'll bring you an update on all those delays and cancellations next on "morning joe." ns ns next on "morning joe." and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past

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>> welcome back. amid hundreds of flight cancellations, many summer travelers are ditching the airports to drive instead. of course, that brings the whole other challenge, the soaring prices at the pump. nbc's emily akeda reports. >> the weekend riddled with flight disruptions. another 500+ flights canceled after the holiday ask many more delayed including in miami after a plane caught fire after its landing gear collapsed injuring 20 people. across the country, passengers weathering turbulent trips. >> probably would delay travels after this. it was pretty tiring and stressful. as soaring demand just shy of

pre-pandemic shelves, pilots picketed about fatigue and scheduling. we understand, we're tired of saying i'm sorry on every flight. it comes days after delta pilots wrote an open letter to customers saying by this fall, they'll have money more overtime in 2022 than the entirely of 2018 and 2019 combined and that's despite airlines trimming the number of flights. >> the number of planes flying the number of flights on the schedule is still down 15%. so you're seeing fuller planes and longer delays. >> aaa believes the swath of recent cancellations will draw more people to the airways this july 4th holiday, predicting 42 million to get behind the wheel, even as the cost of gas hovers around a staggering $5 a gallon. >> bookings at top independent state destinations in the u.s. have spiked by more than 60% compared to next year. a sign the summer travel boom is in more swing marred by mishaps. industry experts reminding

passengers you can get a refund for a canceled flight even on a non-refundable ticket. >> nobody will be a better advocate for yourself than you, and so you need to be prepared with that back-up plan. >> that was nbc's emily akeda reporting. >> and coming up -- >> kid as young as 6 months can get pfizer's three-dose vaccine. every parent's dream, taking their kids three times in a row to get a shot. >> getting shots is no fun, but neither is getting covid. we'll talk to the ceo of pfizer about this important new tool in the fight against the virus. e f. centrum multigummies aren't just great tasting... they're power-packed vitamins... that help unleash your energy. loaded with b vitamins... ...and other key essential nutrients... ...it's a tasty way to conquer your day.

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we've secured enough doses and we're launching a

comprehensive effort with states, local health departments, pediatricians, family doctors, community health centers and other trusted messengers and partners to get the word out to get help to get shots in arms. >> president biden speaking yesterday at the white house on the cdc's approval of covid vaccines for kids under 5 years old. earlier, the president and first lady visited a covid vaccination clinic in washington, d.c. joining us now is the chairman and ceo of pfizer albert borla. we'll talk about the vaccine for children under 5 in just a minute. first you're here to make a special announcement. when the war in ukraine began, when russia's invasion began, a lot of companies pulled their business out of russia. health care companies still wanted to deliver health care to

russian, whether it's a russian child that has cancer, it's no different than a child anywhere else. and pfizer continued to serve the people of russia. you're here to announce sort of a move that really balances the work that you're doing in russia with what's happening in ukraine. >> of course. thank you very much for having me. always for humanitarian reasons medicine is excluded and rightly so. because it's not the same to stop sending cars or computers or telephones and then stop sending medicines for children. we didn't want to use this as an excuse to do business as usual in russia. we decided we would continue sending medicine to kids that maybe were unfortunate to be born in the wrong time and wrong place. we will not profit from it.

all our profits from the russian subsidiary are going to be donated to humanitarian causes directly in ukraine. today we're announcing the first installment of this for the year, $5 million, will be given to humanitarian organizations in ukraine including red cross, unicef, et cetera, et cetera. >> tell us what was behind this decision, this unusual serving russians in terms of medical needs, but then again supporting ukrainians against the russians. >> our main purpose, you can't differentiate where the patient was born, but what you can do is not continue doing business as usual. we can save lives of kids who

had nothing to do with this happens, but also use profits to save lives of kids that were born in ukraine and they're suffering the russian aggression right now. >> your company with your partner biontech and moderna have both pioneered the use of messenger rna, which can easily be reprogrammed every time the spike protein of a coronavirus evolves or changes. do you think we're going to get updated mrna vaccines every season that will be directed to each new variation of the coronavirus? and will we have to take those shots every year? >> i'm almost certain about it. of course regulators have the final say, but that's the beauty of mrna. you can adopt your vaccine just by changing the sequencing, which is a very minor change, either inmanufacturing, but it

can make a huge difference in the way it responds to the virus. i'm confident we'll be able to respond very, very fast to every new variant. >> let's turn to mike barnicle who had a question yesterday about the covid vaccine that he just couldn't get an answer to. we saved it for today, mike. >> the question that i was seeking an answer to is pretty simple. the vaccines for children 5 and younger, is the composition of that vaccine different than the pfizer vaccine for adults? >> the composition is not different, but the dosage is very, very different. the kids are getting one-tenth of the dose that an adult would get. that's in the case of the pfizer vaccine, of course. it's 3 micro grams instead of 30 that adults are getting. we're able to demonstrate that with this very minimal dose, we

are having very good profiles, so we are minimizing fevers or other reactions that vaccines can create in kids, we create very minimum this type of reaction. at the same time, we're giving very, very good protection. >> obviously omicron and its various variants have become the dominant strains of covid over the last handful of months. give us an update, if you will, about omicron specific vaccines. is that what we're going to see going forward? and how are you trying to stay one step ahead of a virus that is mutating constantly? >> we are going to see omicron specific vaccines. the fda has called the major committee of experts for a meeting this month, june 28th, those experts together with the fda, they will make some decisions as to what they think is the best for public health to

see in the next vaccines. whatever the possible options are, we are ready for them. we have developed vaccines in higher doses, lower doses, and they are all waiting so that we can hear what they think is the best way forward so that we can provide a vaccine that is way better than the current one. >> pfizer ceo albert bourla, thank you. announcing right here on "morning joe" they will donate all the profits they make in russia to ukrainian relief efforts. thank you so much for being on the show. up next, we'll go live to the capitol for the latest on the january 6th hearings, including the challenges officials faced in debunking trump's conspiracy theories. as one framed it, it was like

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you're never responsible for unauthorized purchases on your discover card. welcome back to "morning joe." it's a live look at new york, 9:00 a.m. on the east coast, 6:00 a.m. out west. we have a lot to get to, including the fourth public hearing held by the house committee investigating the january 6th attack on the capitol. it focused on the efforts by donald trump and his allies to pressure state and local officials to overturn his 2020 election loss, to cheat, and the threats many of those officials received for simply doing their jobs. also ahead, the growing investigation into the shooting at robb elementary school with the head of the tex