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election. once again in the spotlight, no one other than wisconsin's senator ron johnson. after the committee revealed on tuesday that one of his top staffers messaged an aide to vice president mike pence about johnson passing fake slates of trump electors for wisconsin and michigan to vice president mike pence by hand on january 6th. a pence aide promptly shut it down texting the johnson staffer this, quote. do not give that to him, end quote, but that attempted handoff still begs many questions like what did ron johnson know about the scheme to set up false electors which is under criminal investigation by the justice department. here's johnson on capitol hill dodging questions from reporters. >> how much did you know about what your chief of staff was doing with the alternate slates of electors? no, you're not. >> i can see your phone. i can see your screen.

>> did you know what your chief of staff was doing? >> does your chief of staff still work for you, sir? >> can you explain what happened there? >> why was your chief of staff offering this to the vice president? >> we issued a statement. i don't know what you're even concerned about here. >> your chief of staff is saying that you offered -- you wanted to tell -- >> no, no, no. this -- this -- >> vice president mike pence. >> this is a staff to staff exchange, and i was basically unaware of it and the chief staff contacted the vice president's staff, and said do you want this? they said no. we didn't deliver it. end of story. >> why was he asking for that? >> someone asked us to deliver that to the vice president. >> his pizza came.

do you want it? no? okay. this fraudulent potentially illegal alternate slate of electors to be treated like a nothing birther, the whole episode indicates to which trump's allies were pushing the slates of trump electors which underpin the entire coup plot concocted by trump lawyer john eastman to stop joe biden's win from being certified. select committee member jamie raskin says johnson has an open invitation to come explain to the panel. >> well, senator johnson has an open invittation like everybody else to come forward and to tell us what he knows. certainly, if he knows anything more than that, we would love to hear from him. we understand the organized hit on the election implied the collection of these counterfeit electors and it's -- you know, it would be comic if it weren't so tragic to see people stepping forward in claiming to be

electors for a majority when obviously, their candidate lost. >> the bombshells coming from the january 6th hearings are coming in as a tidal wave. the investigations into january 6th are ongoing and expanding. tomorrow as the select committee holds its fifth public hearing this year, this time focused on donald trump' efforts to get his justice department to overturn the election he lost. behind closed doors congressional investigators will hear from a witness who has tapes, tapes of donald trump, donald trump's family and mike pence. politico's report on that, the house select committee investigating january 6th sent a subpoena to alex holder, a documentary filmmaker who was granted extensive access to donald trump and the inner circle after january 6th. footage shows ivanka trump striking a dramatically, drastically different tone from

what the public has seen to her testimony to the january 6th committee regarding the election fraud conspiracies that her father was peddling, what she said in the depo that she trusted a.g. barr when he said publicly there was no fraud. ivanka trump told a documentary film crew in the middle of december 2020 that her father should, quote, continue to fight until every legal remedy is exhausted, end quote, because people were questioning the sanctity of our elections. new details and new questions about the role of trump officials and republican members of congress in the trump coup plot is there to start the hour. new york times congressional reporter luke broadwater is here, harry litman and the host of the podcast "talking feds" charlie sykes, editor-at-large of the bullwork and msnbc contributor and with me at the table, msnbc political analyst claire mccaskill. i have to start with you because

it's ron johnson day. >> first of all, the pretending to talk on the phone trick, every senator does it when they don't want to talk to the press, but the press knows. they know when you get off the tram and you're like this, that you have to hold is really close to your head so they can't see there wasn't anything on the screen and that was one of ron johnson's many mistakes. he said he was basically unaware of the packet that was delivered to his office. did you notice that equivocation? >> sean riley who was an aide to ron johnson told pence's lthsive director that johnson wanted to hand pence lists of fake electors from michigan. so this is an aide to him saying that johnson wanted to give fake electors to pence. that's a big deal. >> huge deal. >> this is the day of january 6th. >> right. >> so it shows that they began this scheme before the election. we now know one of their lawyer his in an email the day before

the election that they needed to have a legal plan for alternate electors. >> right. >> and taking the electors away from the people who voted in those states. so it is -- there is a mountain of evidence that's piling up here and we don't need to talk anymore about whether there is a referral. these hearings are the referral. >> that's amazing. so we dug up what ron johnson was saying about this plot on fox news on january 4th and certainly, if there was a referral this might be of interest, too. >> right now, we have this issue in front of us as to whether or not certified electors for certain states that really did not follow the election rules laid down by their state legislators and that's a constitutional issue, as well. so what we're saying is let's delay, accepting a particular state's electors until we actually investigate what the issues are in that particular state. >> so -- harry lidman, we know from rusty bowers and we know

from the 60 legal efforts that failed in court that there were no issues in any of the states that they contested or sought to overturn with fake electors. do you feel like this plot may represent the most sprawling criminal bucket that you've seen presented by the committee so far? >>. >> wow. that's a tough question. what's the most sprawling, but it's certainly sprawling. senator mccaskill knows better and i've done work on the hill the difference when someone says my boss wants to hand your boss this piece of paper and the other guy's boss knows not to do it. that's a very different thing from a staff to staff exchange he knows nothing about and he clearly has some more splaining to do. moreover, this didn't arrive at the archivist. so that means that other people in the plot had sent, and we

know this is true, these along, these phony elector certificates to the archivist in wisconsin and minnesota didn't somehow get it together. that is the lynchpin of any criminal charge. you have these fake certificates submitted to the u.s. government the way the jurisdictional requirement of the federal code works. you've got a crime and now it's not in search of a legal theory and it's in search of all of the conspirators and co-conspirators and i think whether or not johnson talks, his aides will surely sit down with the department of justice. >> to that end, charlie sykes, "the washington post" has just dropped a story in the last 25 minutes which says this, the justice department's investigation of the january 6th attack ratcheted up as they dropped subpoenas on people in at least two states in what it appeared a widening probe of

supporting trump. agents conducted court-authorized law enforcement activity wednesday morning at two locations. fbi officials confirmed to "the washington post," one, the home of brad carver, a georgia lawyer signing a document claiming to be a trump elector and thomas lane who worked on the trump campaign's efforts in nevada and new mexico. your thoughts on this intensifying on the criminal front, charlie? >> i want to agree with what claire just said there. it doesn't matter if the committee is making a referral, everything is a referral. i am not a lawyer, but one of the things that is becoming apparent is that this was not just some rage tweeting from donald trump or some drunken tweeting from rudy giuliani. this was a conspiracy to overturn the election at every level of government and that is not an exaggeration. we are seeing how extensive the

attempt was including the united states senator from my state and by the way, i know ron johnson very well. he is not dumb enough to not know what was going on and not dumb enough to not understand what was happening on january 6th and you know, whatever the legal ramifications are and from a political points of view, here you have a united states senator who was implicated on fraud of an epic scale on fraudulent electoral slate that would not only overthrow the election, overturn the election, but would -- was designed to disenfranchise million of voters in michigan and wisconsin. particularly in a divided united states. when you have a senator who is contemplating a move that would wipe out more than 1.6 million votes in wisconsin and millions of votes in a state like michigan and clearly, he doesn't

have a clear answer for this because that was a very weak non-denial denial from senator johnson who is doing the sargence schulz, i know nothing, i see nothing and i don't think that's a sustainable position for him. >> look, the committee has been, whether it's been the guy who gave loudermilk, they do not allege anything without following it up with a bombshell of either photographic or testimonial evidence, and so i think we've watched them long enough to know that if they have an exchange there's more where that came from. i've worked with a president. no one hands -- certainly after 9/11 everything was screened for anthrax. the notion that two staffers went rogue on handing a package from a senator to a vice president is farcicle and

ludicrous on its face. do you have anything on what they have on ron johnson? >> this committee is not a committee that bluffs. if they send a letter and if they make reference to something, if they tease something out then they have followed through time and time again. the loudermilk case is a good example where he had gone on the offense, and he had a letter from capitol police and the next day the committee came back with their evidence. they've teased pardons in these upcoming hearings which we will hear more about the congressmen who asked for pardons so i haven't heard. i do think ron johnson's case is interesting because he was one of those senators who in the buildup to january 6th seemed very much poised to object to thor is the certification of the election and i would say was one

of the loudest critics and most pro-trump people and he was one of the few who sort of switched their stance in the hours after january 6th and he voted to certify the election for joe biden, but now more evidence is coming out about what was going on in his office in those hours before the mob broke into the capitol. so i expect to definitely learn more from the committee on this. >> every time i've asked them, luke, how much they have to quantify it, they simply say lots. they have lots and lots and we have a delay in the public phase which we'll talk about in a second. luke, i want to play something ivanka trump said in a deposition for the january 6th committee. >> how did that affect your perspective about the election when attorney general barr made that statement? >> it affected my perspective. i respect attorney general barr,

so i accepted what he said -- was saying. >> so that was significant testimony, luke, at the time because it suggested that even ivanka trump knew the references to attorney general barr calling all of the fraud claims b.s., and i won't say it. claire and i have used up our b.s. tokens for the month. >> speak for yourself. [ laughter ] >> claire's coming for you. this is what you and your colleagues are reporting, ivanka trump expressed a different view, in the video with the filmmaker, miss trump describing her father's gains and votes among key demographic group his a different reaction when asked whether she had a take on her father's very clear position on the results of what's going on. she says this, quote, i think that as the president has said, every single vote needs to be counted and needs to be heard and he campaigned for the voiceless. i missed that part of the campaign, miss trump, replied and i think a lot of americans

feel very, very disenfranchised right now and question the sanctity of our elections and that's not right. it's not acceptable. the ones questioning the sanctity of the elections is those that donald trump had in them and laundering and cleaning ivanka trump's testimony as an election truther or denier? >> from my understanding this documentary was set to do was lionize donald trump and his administration. so they sat for these interviews where they gave glowing comments about him. one thing that the january 6th committee has done quite skillfully is they have taken people who went into interviews with the idea of defending president trump and arguing back throughout the committee and through hours and hours of interviews, they've been able to extract key information from them. so ivanka trump other and witnesses may have gone in fully

expecting to offend donald trump. they might get to the truth or admit some incriminating facts with donald trump. with some of the witnesses that we've seen, you didn't see the testimony where i was defending him. they took the one clip, being involve in a fablg fake lecher and that's skillful interrogation, extrookt the key elements and display hours and hours of interview where the person is defending the person. so i think that was in some ways showing the skills of the interrogators. >> i mean, i think this is one of the untold stories, harry litman that the depositions and the fact and congresswoman lofgren said on my show that

they weren't taping them at the beginning and that's why people like mr. donohue and mr. rosen are on the audio, and it was a decision they made after they commenced and seeing and luke's point is a good one and almost comical. i'm sure people like jason miller thought i'll go in there with my maga hat on, did trump know? yes. how did he know? i told him. at some point the maga posture falls apart completely. i wonder if you think the same could potentially happen with mr. cipollone's resistance to toughering. i want to show you what liz cheney had to say about that yesterday. >> donald trump does not want mr. cipollone to testify here. indeed, our evidence shows that mr. cipollone and his office tried to do what was right. they tried to stop a number of president trump's plans for january 6th today and come the coming hearings you will hear

testimony from other trump white house staff explaining what mr. cipollone said and did including on january 6th. we think the american people deserve to hear from mr. cipollone personally. he should appear before this committee and we are working to secure his testimony. >> harry litman, his predecessor don mcgahn spent hours and hours with robert mueller. i think when there is a potential for criminal activity, is that something that you can shield with privilege claims? what is this about? >> you can try. so as white house counsel, he's in a position where you can try to say i have a special relation to the office of the presidency, and i also have a special relationship to donald trump. cipollone is a barr acolyte, a bill barr acolyte and we know from early on he repeatedly told trump, eastman, others as did his staff this is unlawful and

he is a key piece to knowledge and it's remarkable that cheney did this. for the most part they've been finessing the people who wouldn't cooperate and just trying to get the little they could, but this was coming right out on national tv and saying, you know who is and where is pat cipollone. that's maximum pressure. i just want to say briefly to luke's point. 95% of the big revelations from the committee here have come through trump partisans. bowers, rusty bowers who was so effective yesterday he said afterwards he told the arizona paper, i'd vote for trump again. that's the kind of people we're talking about so when they come out and say, you know, he lied to me and that there was nothing to this, it's all the more effective. one final point on the film, i'm not sure what will happen with ivanka, but hours of interviews with donald trump and others, he's incapable of censoring himself. i want to hear those hours and

hear how he steps in it repeatedly as i expect that he will, but cipollone is a big drama playing behind the scenes and it is unclear how it will play out right now. >> claire, there's another headline i want to ask you about. lawmakers in the january 6th committee have had to ramp up security as threats against them increased. in the last 24 hours there's been an uptick in the number of threats with the house select committee investigating the january 6, 2021 insurrection at the u.s. capitol. they are likely to receive a security detail. that's according to three people and it's a tragic reality check of where they are in the country with the political violence, just listen about them being incredible threats to people who were just doing their jobs, who were just counting votes or who

were just overseeing electors based on the votes that were counted. the idea that they were putting billboards by rusty bowers, this devout, religious man, calling him a pedophile. these are just a bunch of thugs. just a bunch of thugs. i'm glad they're getting security. i have to circle back to ivanka. don't you think donald trump is proud today? i vafrng a nine days after barr went national and said there was no fraud in the election, now keep in mind that is the point that she said in this deposition that convinced her and she accepted it because barr said it. nine days after that she went to camera saying her dad was doing the right thing. so you know, dad has to be proud because, you know, this is a chip off the old block. she's doing exactly the kind of stuff he does. she's saying what she thinks she has to say based on the audience

that's going to hear it and not of the truth of the matter. >> it's amazing the committee is revealing all of that. charlie, quickly, threats of political violence against anyone that they're reprehensible that they're one of the disturbing signs of how we are fraying as a democracy and stable state. i have to say, i hope the committee extends the security detail to witnesses like ruby freeman and shay moss. >> you saw what donald trump has wrought here, the pressure, the threats, the bullying. people who say that i don't feel safe anywhere, and unfortunately, this is now the political reality where political violence has, if not normalized, has become tacitly accepted and unfortunately, i think it is our future and that we ought to look at it straight in the eye. look, january 6th was a terrorist attack that flowed from a series of lies from the extreme radicalization of maga

world and nothing about that has abated. all of that has accelerated and i think it's scary. look at the letter that cad am kinzinger received and doupd how ugly the former president of the united states has unleashed and how he has used the power of the office of the president of the united states to bully and threaten private citizens and to create this atmosphere of menace around our constitutional processes. >> it's where we are. it's who we are right now. everyone is sticking around. when we come back, a judge has ruled that the top executives at fox endorsed trump's election lies and allowed their host to tell viewers that dominion voting systems were rigged and that defamation lawsuit being given the green light to proceed. we'll discuss that next and a bipartisan gun bill clears an initial vote in the u.s. senate making way ftc first piece of

gun legislation in decades. it's not everything everyone wanted, but lives could be saved once it passes and signed into law? our frank guttenberg will be our guest. the january 6th select committee back at it tomorrow. a look at the ex-president's pressure campaign on his own justice department with committee member pete aguilar who will be our guest. all of those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. mamá, growing up... you were so good to me. you worked hard to save for my future.

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>> there is much to understand about smartmatic which owns dominion voting systems. >> the dominion machine is filled with holes as swiss cheese and was developed to steal elections. >> if that was true and finally, a clear, sharp ruling from a judge about accountability for the people who gave the okay for that, that garbage to air on fox news, that leadership may have ignored the reality that the ex-president's allegations about dominion voting systems were false. yesterday judge eric davis denied an attempt by fox news' parent company fox corp to dismiss a $1.6 billion defamation lawsuit from dominion because as he says, its executives may have acted with, quote, actual malice in letting the falsehoods air. dominion's arguments support a reasonable imprint that rupert and lachlan murdoch manipulated

the election and recklessly disregarded the truth when they allegedly caused fox news to propagate claims about dominion. it is the latest win for defamation lawsuits against maga media's rules. the same judge upheld dominion's lawsuit against news max. a d.c. judge upheld maddox, harry litman, your reaction? >> so much going on and it's just a titanic battle in the country between truth and fiction or truth and lies. by and large the courts have done a pretty good job. not perfect, but pretty good. so what you have here is the court saying, look, whether it was for political patronage or money, murdoch made this decision and he knew it was false because he told trump that trump had lost. so it was brazen in the same way that other lies this we've been seeing, giuliani and the like

were brazen and this is the big stage in a lawsuit, nicole. typically after this fox can't go to a jury and it will be hundreds of millions anyway. same thing in another case that was in a much earlier stage and they said it can proceed, there is jurisdiction, but basically i see this as just part and parcel of a bigger battle in the country and you look to the courts finally to be the backstop on what's true and what's false and they come through more often than they haven't in the last few years, i'll put it that way. >> luke broadwater, the counting of votes and the recounting of votes in the case of george a the thrice recount ballots in the state of georgia are a feature of the story that's being told and it seems to be on the mind of the committee to allow to be introduced into evidence as often as possible, the debunking of this conspiracy theory, this lie that's taken

hold and yesterday it was the process and how the machine count was held up against the hand count and you had the paper ballots so if they counted up, the country's getting an education in just how secure election is which was the claim made by lifelong republican chris krebs. i wonder if you can speak to the other side of the committee's mission in terms of debunking these deeply held conspiracies? >> yeah, there's definitely an educational mission here by the committee. it's one thing for many viewers and readers to hear that, you know, what donald trump and rudy giuliani and others were saying was false, but then to have election officials walk you through it step by step. so you heard claims that there were, you know, tens of thousands of voters and

raffensperger found it was two and it was four people and not 100,000 or whatever the claim was and they made similar claims about felons who had voted and underaged voters and those were all actually zero. there were no such illegal votes that were cast. so you heard one by one, each of these claims put forward and then debunked, and i even noticed tweets by some maga supporters, or former maga supporters. i saw dustin thompson that he helped organize these rallies, the stop the steal rallies that he up until that moment believed the lie that the suitcases full of vote his been pulled out from under a table, and added to joe biden's tally, and then he heard for the first time that he had been duped. >> yeah. >> that the evidence was all false, that those were just normal votes being tabulated. that was the normal process and there was nothing untoward and no suitcase. it was all a lie.

i think anybody who really cares to find the truth and does watch these hearings will see that they were duped, and will see how easily most of these lies are debunked. most of them are absurd on their face, but for the people who did believe them they now have clear evidence on national television showing they were false. >> behind every voting machine was a false allegation, and a human being, people like shay moss and ruby freeman. i want to show you gabe sterling's testimony about the abuse of an election worker that he describes as the straw that broke the camel's back. >> a little after lunch that day -- lunchtime, i received a call from the project manager from dominion voting systems who was oddly, audibly shaken. she informed me about a young contractor they had who had been receiving threats from a video that was posted by some qanon

supporters. it was a particular tweet for lack of a better word was the straw that broke the camel's back. had the young man's name, a very unique name, i believe, he was a first-generation american, had his name, you committed treason may god have mercy on his soul with a slowly twisting gif of a noose and for lack of a better word, i lost it. i just got irate. >> charlie, that is the normal human reaction to anyone being falsely accused of election fraud and manipulation of votes. it was another powerful brick in the wall that operation luke is describing, debunking deeply held conspiracy theories on the right. i want to follow with what luke had to say. i had the same impression that this was all a reminder yesterday that not only were trump's falsehoods lies. they were easily and frequently

debunked lies, and it is interesting to walk through specifically how absurd they were, but also, again, we've known that donald trump is a malevolent character and you saw the human cost of this, as well. i have to say, nicole, i'm glad you're highlighting the lawsuits against fox news and newsmax. this is a very, very big deal because this is the standard for defamation is understandably, reasonably and justifiably very lie, but it is also the ultimate check. what are the consequences for deception and consequences for lying. we are about to found out. free speech means you will not be censored and the government cannot shut you up, but it also means there are consequences and the consequences for fox and these other networks could be absolutely massive and so it's very easy to be discouraged about how wide spread these lies

were and how many people have believed these lies and the consequences of these lies, but these defamation lawsuits are out there and i think they will have a tremendous impact on some of the liars of the culture of media and politics. >> the story today, claire, is important after witnessing gut-wrenching testimony. there is really no accountability. there's no end to the abuse that shay moss and her mother lady ruby freeman or, you know, other election workers who were anonymous, maybe known in their community and certainly known in their precincts, but they became targets of a large effort to overturn election results and there was collateral damage in that. >> i think there is a collective cry of anguish across the country right now from most people who watched the hearings

because it's breathtaking. >> yeah. >> -- what they did. it is breathtaking what the president of the united states tried to pull off, and people around him allowed him to do it and some of them facilitated it and then you have a major media outlet that let these bozos go on the air, and i'm trying to get my head around -- i mean, can you imagine nicole me coming on you and looking at you and looking at the camera and making s-h-i-t up? >> no. we're the kind of people that spell out s-h-i-t. >> exactly. it's just hard for me. these were lawyers that just went on the air with a straight face and made stuff up. >> yeah. fox ran the hearing and i watched a little bit of the coverage and it was very interesting. because when they went to the break and that's why i wanted to hear what their folks would say and it was really interesting

because there was even an acknowledgement that had there been republicans on the committee they weren't sure they could have done much damage to the witnesses. the only thing they could say is there aren't republicans on the committee. they weren't the ones they wanted on the committee. it's fascinating to me, and i do think this committee will take a place in history. i want to believe this is a fork in the road. i want to believe the majority of america is going to go down the road of saying we support accountability, something's got to happen. >> all we need is simple majority. >> that's all we need. luke broadwater, harry sykes, thank you so much for sticking around this hour. claire is sticking around with us. a big step forward. congress is days away from passing much-needed, long overdue legislation and we'll get reaction from fred guttenberg who lost his daughter jamie in one of the country's worst mass shootings in a school

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colleague joe scarborough earlier today on the bipartisan gun legislation he helped craft and negotiate after clearing the first hurdle on becoming law. they voted 64-34 with 14 republicans joining senate democrats. if passed it will enhance background checks for people under 21 years old. it will direct toughen penalties for evading licensing requirements. leaders in the u.s. senate say they hope to have the bill passed by saturday. it would be the first major piece of gun legislation passed in nearly 30 years. joining us now our friend fred guttenberg, his daughter jamie was killed in the parkland school shooting. >> fred, this would not have happened if you hadn't -- if you hadn't loaned your voice to this crisis. i just -- i need to know that you know that today.

>> uh -- i worked with some really amazing people and i lent jamie's voice. honestly, i would give anything to go back to being a goofy dad, but jamie was the toughest human being i knew, and jamie and i, we did this together with a amazing, amazing people including my dear friend who you just showed, chris murphy and people who he trusted more than i did and i give him credit for that because, nicole, i was on your show with senator murphy back in, i think, december. >> yeah. >> and i was challenging him then to give up on the efforts to reach across the aisle and just to go to the floor and force a vote, to break the

filibuster and all of that stuff. he was right to continue working it. candidly, i have been pretty aggressive with how i feel about senator cornyn, but in fairness, i've always said i will publicly embrace any human being who does the right thing on this, and i look forward to seeing senator cornyn and just giving him a big hug because i just -- i can't say thank you enough. >> say more about what you think changed the calculation of 14 senate republicans. what do you think is different this time? >> you know, it's a great question, maybe they also realized that the idea of reducing gun violence isn't an affront to the second amendment, that the idea of saving lives isn't going to hurt legal,

lawful gun owners, and that the idea of seeing children with their heads blown to smithereens is something we shouldn't feel is okay to live with anymore. i will tell you, i think since parkland, look at the work of all of the amazing kids and the adults who have really fought like crazy to tell the truth about what it is we want, about what it is we hope to do which candidly is nothing more than save lives, i think it finally broke through. >> we get the 64 votes last night that was 64 republicans and it will be 15, and they can go to 16 or 17, and we'll get republicans in the house, as well. this is going to be a bipartisan

effort. >> it is so important, and i remember that interview with you, and i don't think i played an objective host in any way. i saw it the way you saw it. i want to ask you about your journey and your fight, because it's always about jamie. we talk about jamie more than we talk about any individual bills or any politicians in either party. tell me about your journey. >> this morning i woke up and cried like a baby. i've actually been very emotional all day because the significance of what is happening, you can never remove it from why i now do what i do, and four years ago on february 15, 2018, i went to a vigil in a park nah florida and the mayor asked me if i wanted to speak

and i remember everything hitting me there at that vigil, what really happened. it hit me. this was gun violence, and i walked into my house that night and i said i want to break the back of that gun lobby. i used a few other words, but i'll clean it up here. and that's been my mission ever since and president biden during the campaign he promised me, he said during my administration we are going to sign gun safety legislation, and that's been the only thing that i've been able to focus on since because gun violence isn't going to go away, you know? we're going to say -- think about this, nicole, the success of this legislation will be based upon things we'll never know. we'll never know the people who don't get killed. we'll never know the families who don't get broken, but it's

going to save lives and i just -- i'm truly, i can't believe we are at this moment, and i can't -- i look forward to being able to do more now that we've broken through this 30-ye. >> i want to pull clara in and ask where do you go from here? don't go anywhere. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. (driver) conventional thinking would say verizon has the largest and fastest 5g network. but, they don't. they only cover select cities with 5g.

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clara, these are your former colleagues. are you surprised? >> i am not surprised. mitch mcconnell, this was a political play. mitch mcconnell realized it was untenable for them not to do something. he put his lieutenant, cornyn, in charge of the negotiation. i knew the minute cornyn was in charge it was going to pass. phony marco rubio said he didn't have time to read. do you know how many things he's voted on without reading them? how about the tax bill, i can think of a lot of things. he has time to read it. that was a procedural motion. the next bill will be on the substance of the bill. we'll see where he lands. i wanted to ask you, however, the father that has brought humanity issue, unlike any other -- nicolle and i were

talking in the break. it's hard to get through an interview with you because you make us cry, which is aed goo thing. it is a good thing. we feel it. we feel you, and that is the passion that this issue needed. so congratulations. so after you continue to just bask in this victory, which is a major victory, what do you see as the next step? do you think that we can still get after high-capacity magazines and assault weapons. it is how quickly people can be killed that's the biggest danger to children in classrooms across this country. >> you know, thank you for the question. the next step is actually tied to everything you discussed on the first half of your program today, because the issue of gun violence and democracy are connected. i don't foresee any other

ability to do legislation during the rest of this election year. so here is what's next, and i think as a reminder, i've joined the brady pac as a senior adviser. to me what's next is a purely political issue. this would not have happened this week if americans didn't elect president biden, if americans did not elect a house of representatives that's currently got speaker pelosi, and if americans did not elect a senate that is in the -- has majority control by democrats where chris murphy was able to negotiate. that is the reason we're in this place, and there is no other reason. so what is next is going to be an election year, where the issues around gun violence and democracy i think will unfortunately become clearer and where americans are going to get to have a vote.

and i believe by the time we get to election time, we will add more seats in the senate that will allow us to not have to struggle through this 50/50 thing that we've had to struggle through up until now. >> from your lips. fred, when i heard this news last night at 10:00 from lawrence o'donnell. you were the first person i thought of and jamie is the first person i thought of. we're so proud to know you. i see all the love that comes to you from our viewers. thank you for spending time with us today. up next for us, what we can expect tomorrow from tomorrow's january 6th hearing with committee member congressman pete aguilar. that's after a quick break. don't go anywhere. quick break don't go anywhere. ♪ ♪ and your truck's been demolished by the peterson boy ♪ ♪ yes -- ♪

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just as we heard today that donald trump was deeply involved in the scheme to pressure state officials to overturn the election results, we're here -- we will hear on thursday that donald trump was also the driving force behind the effort to corrupt the justice department. listen to this clip from the former acting attorney general richard donohue. >> the ppt said suppose i do this, suppose i replace him, jeff rosen with him, jeff clark. what do you do? i said, sir, i would resign immediately. i would say there's no way i'ming one minute under this guy, jeff clark. >> hi again everyone.

it's 5:00. that's what's coming at the end of yesterday's powerful hearing. benny thompson gave us that sneak peek into what will be presented to the public tomorrow. another hugely significant piece of the puzzle of ex-president's attempts to anoint himself as the winner. tomorrow's focus will be on donald trump's pressuring of justice department senior officials and just how close he came to installing a coup proponent loyalist at the top of doj. that's a man by the name of jeffrey clark who legitimized trump's false claims of voter fraud. that clip you heard chairman thompson play, that was the voice of former acting attorney general richard donohue. he was recounting a january 3rd, 2020 meeting in the oval office where they threatened to resign if trump did what he's

threatening to do and make jeffrey clark the country's attorney general. that was the pinnacle of a pressure campaign that had been building. when donohue and the acting attorney general at the time, a man named jeffrey rosen, did not succumb to trump's demand to, quote, just say the election was corrupt and leave the rest to me and our congressman t. ex-president looked for assistance elsewhere. he found what he was looking for in jeffrey clark. he hatched a plan to reverse the election results. resent sent reporting in "the washington post" revealed astounding new details about the nearly three-hour meeting on january 3rd wherein doj of firms confront trump and clark from that reporting. you two, pointing at the two justice department officials, you two haven't done anything. you two don't care. you vice president taken appropriate actions. everyone tells me i should fire you. trump continually circled back

to the idea of replacing rosen with his man clark. quote, what do i have to lose, the president asked, according to donohue. mr. president, you have a great deal to lose, do you know hugh said, he responded. is this really how you want your administration to end? you're going to hurt the country. you're going to hurt the department. you're going to hurt yourself. with people grasping as straws on these desperate theories about election fraud. and is this really in anyone's best interest? donohue warned trump that putting clark in charge would be likely to lead to mass resignations at the justice department. donohue is one of three witnesses who will appear in person at the select committee's hearing tomorrow along with rosen and former doj assistant attorney general for the office of legal counsel. that's a man named stephen engel. tomorrow on the pressure kpain that trump waged against the doj. former assistant u.s. attorney maya wiley, mark schmidt, "new

york times" work correspond and ben rhodes former national security adviser to president obama. maya wiley, i start with you. in some ways this is the part of the scheme we've heard about for the longest because of bill barr's res statement that there was no fraud and now his taped deposition before the january 6th committee that he thought it was all bs. what are you looking for? what questions do you still have for these three doj officials? >> i have to tell you, nicolle, i don't have a lot of questions. what we know already is that from the lee leased emails and texts and the testimony clips that you just played, is that department of justice officials, folks actually who like a jeffrey rosen who were, frankly

part of the trump administration being pressured out rite to do what he he needed them in order to ensure the outcome that he wanted which is for the american public to believe the big lie that there had been some voter fraud. there's so much that we know here. i think one of the interesting questions is going to be what additional evidence -- because we already had a tremendous slew of evidence, not just that donald trump had been told explicit lie by his own campaign, by his own lawyers that this is not something credible, but the length he went to try to install the one person hen he went searching for the answers he wanted, someone who would say what he wanted. he found it in jeffrey clark. he pressured folks to say i'll put this guy in the you don't do what i want you to do. that put aside the potential for crimes here.

that at its root is essentially the kind of authoritarian abuse of power that we all have to be very concerned about in our democracy. that's already come out loud and clearly so far in these hearings. everything else is going to be gravy. >> this is some of of former attorney general bill barr describing his break from the department. >> he got to something which i was expecting which is that apparently the department of justice doesn't think that it has a role of looking into these fraud claims. i said that has to be the campaign that raises that with the state. the department doesn't take sides in elections, the department is not an extension of your legal team. and our role is to investigate fraud. we'll look at something if it's credible and affects the outcome

of the election. we're doing that. it's just not meritorious. >> the committee has made such deliberate choices wrchlt do you think the coup plot within the coup plot fits into the bigger story they're telling? >> the doj is central to the legitimization of trump being able to overthrow the election. i think part of what they have to do, which really rides education of the public that doesn't follow these issues that closely, is convey just how unprecedented and extraordinary it is for any president to assert this degree of political control of the justice department. you were at the white house, nicolle. so was i. you didn't even comment on what doj was doing. in 2016 during the investigation of hillary clinton, we had no idea, when jim comey gave that press conference in the spring, we didn't know he was giving the

press conference until that day. part of what you have to do is bill barr, not the most non-partisan guy in the world, but bill barr saying the justice department does not work for you as your personal attorneys. they don't do your bidding. they don't try to win your case of public opinion in conveying wild conspiracy theories that are not at all backed by facts. they have to convey just how much they were trying to take over the machinery of justice in the united states of american to turn it over to his theory to legitimize a coup essentially. >> this won't come up tomorrow i don't think. but the justice department in those last six months, last year of trump's administration or even going back to when barr started enabled trump in ways that were extraordinary, that went beyond what sessions had done. so, if you're trump, and there's

absolutely no excuse for that type of behavior, he's probably trying wondering where bill barr -- >> right. >> tomorrow when they bring these justice department officials up there, i don't think they're going to be asking about how michael cohen was thrown in prison in the summer of 2016 -- summer of 2020. and i don't think they'll be asking about the john bolton investigation that trump wanted to start so badly and how they helped him. these individuals at the justice department will probably be lionized by the committee tomorrow, but the story is much more nuanced than that. >> specifically, i think you and your colleague reported that bill barr had no problems investigating equally unfounded allegations of voter fraud before the election. and that was a big break with doj patrol see, right? >> the infamous thing with barr

is this interview he gives cnn in the summer of 2020 where he talks about election issues, and that was really seen as something that was very favorable to trump and republicans, what could potentially be election fraud. that was what he did there. and then after the election, they investigated all these claims. this is another thing that i guess won't come up tomorrow either. but the justice department was running down every claim that donald trump had. they're going to sit there tomorrow and say, look, none of them -- we ran every one down. the president of the united states can get the fbi to run down every allegation that he has? >> it was so unfounded, they didn't even all come from fox news. that's how wacky they were. maya, this complicated picture of these doj officials who were

lionized of the senate judiciary committee because mr. donald and mr. rosen stfd before that committee before they were made available to the sect committee. what do you make and what's the viewer's guide to absorbing this testimony tomorrow? >> i just want to say, i think ben and mike's points are so important. this was a fast slide down a slippery slope because so many of the norms were crossed well before january 6th, and really that roadmap here really has to reenforce. we're talking about folks that come from donald trump's own camp who were testifying now, who are telling us just like days ago when we were laerg from the campaign team, from others, we are hearing from people we can see and understand is deeply credible because they were on his side. and really what's changed here

isn't whether they were on his side. it's really that they finally hit a boundary. they finally hit a wall, and the wall was the peaceful transfer of power in our democracy. that is something that really has to be underscored here, that the issue here is not just what happened in the past, it's that what if we once again looked the other way, once again don't allow consequences or the bottom of the slope that we're at in our democracy just as we heard from the judge, this is our future, not just our past. >> this became clear last night, that one thing we're learning in all the testimony is where everyone's line was. to mike's point, bill barr's was after using the justice department to go on cnn and say that he had questions about the integrity of the vote the summer before the election, and then to run down all the crazy stuff.

they investigated the israeli lasers. i think that was too weird. they used taxpayer money to do that even though they were being thrown out of state courts by the hour. what is your sense of the people who come in behind bill barr and the interplay with trump and their testimony about trump's role. we have in donohue's notes, and i think this came out from the senate judiciary committee's hearing, it seems that they implicate trump as the leader of the conspiracy to overturn the 2020 election result. >> what's clear, and make makes a very important point, the justice department broke all kind of norms, target trump's political opponents, to investigate his own pet theories, and even to try to delegitimize his political opponents. but for barr the line was obstructing the peaceful transfer of power without any

credible evidence whatsoever. so what trump clearly did, he just kept rotating people through the seat until he found the guy to carry out his investigation. jeffrey clark, hardly a household name, maybe he will be after tomorrow to some people. all this was was trump going after person after person until he literally found the people that had no bottom, had no guardrails whatsoever. bill barr had a bottom and he hit that bottom in december and said i'm out. let's find the guy who has no bottom and he'll run the coup for me. trump was literally installing people who would overturn the election. second, if he gets back in the oval office, those people are going to be there on day one. >> right, jeffrey clark will be the ag. >> we'll be living in a straight-up -- the corruption of justice to service the ends of the leader is the chief core characteristic of an

authoritarian system. the jeffrey clarks of the world are going to be the people that walk in the door on the first day. that is just as scary as the fact that donald trump was trying to carry out a coup. >> to your point, imagine if trump put some planning and thought into this. one of the things he was fighting this uphill battle for was cleaning out the people who wouldn't do what he wanted to do, dating back to jim comey all the way through to bill barr. he's looking for those people throughout. six months out, if he had said, man, i really need someone like jeffrey clark as my attorney general or had thought some of these things through, it would not have been hard for them to get there. i think that's one of the scary things that all these hearings have shown, is just how close he was. and if he had just had a few more people like that in the right positions, that could have been a real game-changer for him. >> and to the story that the committee is telling, we'll get to congressman pete aguilar in a

minute, every chapter has that person. but for mike pence, the eastman plot succeeds. but for a few rusty bowers around the country, fake electors get handed to pence and succeeds. what's the piece of the story you're looking for? >> i'm not sure. these officials tomorrow will be able to show the line that they created between trump and what he really wanted to do. >> the coup. >> and they will show how they told the president these allegations were baseless, and that has become an increasingly important part of the narrative that the committee has shown because they're trying to show that trump should have known and knew that what he was doing was wrong. so they will do that, but they will also give an opportunity to see what trump himself was being told, because it's very important to -- when the justice department, if they ever get under the hood on this, what

trump was told, what he should have known, what he did believe or should have believed will be very important. >> he was told -- he was told what was legal and what was illegal, and he was probably looking for people to tell him that whatever he wanted to do was legal even if it wasn't. >> it's clear by the end he was looking for people to do illegal things. maya, one of the things i remember from the mueller report is one of his fights -- maybe some of your reporting with don mcgahn is he doesn't like he's writing things down. we know mr. donohue and mr. rosen were notetakers. the committee has dropped out bombshells and revelations and firsthand accounts of what ben and mike were talking about,her bombshells along those lines tomorrow? >> it's certainly very possible. i think you're absolutely right.

we also heard from michael cohen that donald trump operates like a mob boss in terms of trying to do wink, wink, nod, nod, make sure he's communicating what he wants folks to do but being careful what he wants folks to do, not liking a record. we may well see. lawyers like to take notes. there may be some of that information, and we have already heard from the committee that they're getting more tips, more information. they want more folks to know they can still come forward and that there's more documents and information coming. i think one of the other things that's going to be very interesting is to see what pat cipollone, whether or not he'll testify. certainly at least by all accounts he was another one who may have communicated to trump, you know, you can't do that. as we know, there is an exception to any kind of attorney-client privilege if there was any sense that there was a crime being committed. so it's going to be interesting

to see. i do want to make one other point as we're talking about the slippery slope. the other reason we're here is the department of justice being willing -- we heard from shaye moss yesterday how her life was endangered and threatened because of these lies and because, frankly, between donald trump and also rudy giuliani, even race baiting around it by suggesting they were passing usb -- as if it was a crack vial, just offensive. that's also part of the story of hate and manipulating racial insecurity around people's rights to exercise their right to vote and around how that's looked at. it is the department of justice that is responsible for making sure our rights to vote are protected. one of the pieces of slippery slope is donald trump was absolutely willing to undermine even one of the core functions of the department of justice, not just staying neutral or protecting the right to vote. >> it's a feature now, not a bug

of the modern republican party as well, what maya is talking about. ben, in getting ready for tomorrow, i went back and looked at some of the reporting and what we know. there's reporting in the times about meadows' pressure campaign against the justice department as well. this is from june 5th, 2021, five emails sent in the last week of december, early january, meadows asks jeffrey rosen, then the acting attorney general, to examine debunked claims of election fraud in new mexico in an array of baseless conspiracies that held that trump had been the actual victor. that included a fantastical theory that people in italy used military technology and satellites to remotely tamper with voting machines in the u.s. and switch trumps to trump from biden. former officials and people close to him said he did not do so. meadows is the guy facing sort of uncertain legal status, if

you will, for his role in any of this. i think we saw cassidy hutchinson who was the senior white house adviser, special assistant for white house affairs. she's clearly testified to a lot of what meadows knows. if mr. cipollone, white house counsel doesn't testify, how do you expect them to be characterized in absentia? >> first of all, in any white house, the chief of staff is the hub of the whole government. the way it always worked when i was there, it goes from the president to the chief of staff and out to the departments. it seemed like meadows is very much playing that role. >> in this case to eastman and rudy, i guess, but yes. >> he's the hub of a lot of information. he's the hub of bottom-up insane conspiracy theories about foreign interference and totally unfounded claims of fraud from the state level or local level. that's coming up through him, and it's kind of -- he's getting it back and forth to trump. he's the one giving directives

to the united states government. there are people like eastman and giuliani who are not white house staff or part of the government, but seem to have the capacity to direct the u.s. government. this is what's so insane and alarming about this plot, is med does allowed these characters, instead of trying to keep them out, he let them in and let peeft like eastman and giuliani become conduits of the president of the united states and trying to issue directives to the attorney general of the united states of america, a person with sprawling resources and the capacity to investigate things and just to legitimize -- part of what's so interesting is whether or not mark meadows believed these conspiracy theories is one thing or another, but they clearly believed this is a hallmark of the republican party in the last several years, just the appearance of investigation. they're looking into fraud. that legitimizes to some that there's fraud. they wanted the doj to

legitimize their conspiracy theories. >> they said it. it's in the notes. >> they don't just want rudy giuliani to do his own investigation, they want the united states department of justice to be doing it because it looks more legit. >> do you have anymore on liz cheney's plea about wanting cipollone to testify? >> don mcgahn did testify, he eventually did after a whole court fight, he went up there and answered questions behind closed doors. in the legal world the white house counsel is given a special designation all these executive privilege things have been used time and time again by trump to protect himself. some of those arguments were

they tried to use -- witnesses tried to use and were able to rely on them to not cooperate with the committee. we saw how meadows was not charged. my guess is some of the executive privilege questions were braided in with that decision. so the fact that he was president still helps him and hurts those investigating. >> trying to get to him. thank you to maya wylie, mike schmitt and ben rhodes sticking around. we'll be joined by congressman pete aguilar will join us to preview tomorrow's hearing. the disgraced ex-president is rebuked again by georgia voters. still more questions are asking asked about a trump endorsement these days? "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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more evidence is pouring out every day. more witnesses are coming forward. it's almost like a national catharsis as people who have information are deciding to turn it over to the january 6th select committee. i had hoped we would be done with the hearing process by the end of june. it may be that the incorporation of all the new evidence coming in requires us to go a little further into the summer. >> that was member of the january 6th committee congressman jamie raskin putting voice to this mammoth amount of ed, constantly evolving mission that they have before them as they try to present a case with new evidence coming in every single day. earlier today select committee chairman benny thompson said

following tomorrow's hearings, the next hearings will be pushed into july to account for the additional work the committee now has to do because of the new information and evidence it is receiving. let's bring in congressman pete aguilar of krochlt, a member of the house committee of january 6th, notably led the oefd and witnesses. i wonder if you the put any more specificity around the quantity and kind of evidence you're getting. is it witnesses? is it things like the documentary tapes from the documentarian who turned things over to you? can you tell us about the kind of things you're in receipt of? >> i'm not going to talk about the types of evidence that we have. the public reporting, the documentarian came forward and indicated he was cooperating and turning material over to the january 6th committee. that is one type of new information that we received,

and that will take some time to go through, but the chairman also put the tip line at the end of our hearings and encouraged people who know things ability january 6th to come forward. that has led to other phone calls that the committee has gone through. so i'm not going to classify additional types of information, but it has been helpful to receive new information as part of our investigation. >> congressman, as a former white house staffer, i watch the hearing you led. i thought the vice president's staffer, mr. jacobs, carried all of the water in describing mike pence's decision making, both his physical decision making, where he would locate himself, his legal analysis, the calls he made. as a staffer, i thought it made mike pence look like he left his men on the field, on the battlefield of political combat literally, as described by rudy giuliani. did you renew efforts to speak to mike pence after the hearing you led?

>> i'm not going to talk about witnesses that we've reached out to or the types of engagement that we have, but i think it's fair to say that there are witnesses with respect to the hearing that i led regarding the vice president that we would like to hearing more from. clearly the role of the vice president was part of that. and we feel, the committee feels, you heard the chairman say and i echoed the fact that the vice president did his job that day. that doesn't mean we don't have questions, and i do feel that it would be helpful to the investigation to hear more voices from individuals other than just greg jacob. i thought that was clear and compelling evidence to show just how close the mob came to them, and clearly greg jacob had not known how close the mob had come to them as they were evacuaing either. >> some of the evidence that

stuck in my mind even as we've gone through another public hearing, the evidence presented that made abundantly clear of donald trump's indifference to the life and security of mike pence and his family. i wonder if that indifference being meated out against the vice president in your view has any legal, criminal significance? >> i think clearly and you heard vice chair cheney talk about this in the first hearing, a dereliction of duty was definitely something there we feel strongly about. it's very clear from the evidence alone that the president did wake up on january 6th feeling that the vice president could hand him the presidency, and that was not only unconstitutional, but illegal. so that's incredibly troubling, but the evidence bears that out. so our degree of difficulty has been to talk about that, to use the facts to relay the

information that we received, and i thought in our hearing we did a good presentation of that just as adam schiff did a good presentation early this week. i'm confident adam kinzinger will lead a clear and compelling hearing tomorrow. >> every day has presented evidence of what the facts really are, that donald trump lost the election. everybody acknowledges that was true, even ivanka trump. it has included the second layer of presenting evidence that donald trump knew what the facts were, he was told by nick cannon, by bill stepien, by jason miller. the next level has been, especially in your hearing, to provide evidence that donald trump knew the things he was asking people to do were illegal or legally unsound. will that feature in tomorrow's presentation of evidence? terms of what he was asking doj officials to do? >> i think you're going to hear tomorrow from the department of justice officials exactly what

those conversations were like with the white house and with the former president. so these are folks who have spoken before on the record, but i think this is going to be new and important information that will be helpful. but i think it's clearly hear what you really have, nicolle, not only did the president know he lost, but he was grasping at straws and january 6th was really the last exercise by which he tried to thwart a peaceful transfer of power and to try to chip away at our democracy. so this is an important discussion that we need to have tomorrow with these department of justice officials who have been forthright and honest in our conversations with them today. >> at least one federal judge has seen enough of your evidence to say more likely than not donald trump and john eastman committed felonies. are you able to say in your view that you have enough evidence to prove that donald trump committed felonies?

>> that's for another branch of government. but what i can tell you is from our side at the capitol, our job is to present this evidence to the american public, to do so in a clear and convincing way, to do it in an apolitical way, not democrats or republicans, but members of congress committed to democracy who are presenting evidence and guided by the truth. that's been our focus as well as talking about steps to prevent this from ever happening again. we'll use upcoming hearings to talk about just those steps. >> really quickly, you've been so generous with your time on what is a very busy week. there ares there was news today that committee members would be receiving extra security. i wonder what you can say about that and if any witnesses will be receiving extra security. >> i'm not going to talk about the security protocols that members are under. i can tell you personally speaking our office has received more negative attention as a

result of my role within the committee, but i think the committee members are taking the appropriate precautions and will continue to do so moving forward. with respect to the witnesses, we want to make sure that they can provide their testimony in a way without feeling intimidated and looks out for their safety while they're here at the capital as well. mr. aguillar, thank you for talking with us about it. thank you so much. >> thanks, nicolle. back with mike and ben. it's just a haunting sign of exactly what they're presenting to this country, this news today, that the committee members are adding security. >> i think one of the things in terms of the security issue that the committee was successful at in its last hearing was showing the impact that trump's words

had on others' harassment, use of violence against election workers, state officials and such. we knew some of this. these are things we knew publicly. what the committee has done successfully is brought that to life. look, just hearing it from these individuals, directly from them at a nationally televised hearing las been powerful and has really shown -- they've been able to show how trump's words resulted in that harassment. >> there was a time, nicole, -- nicolle, when the threats against me, because i became a subject of attention, swhal we say, from some of the right wing media, where the threats are so bad, i had secret service protecting my little d.c. apartment in dupont at night. something people don't get, the

moss testimony, i did sign up to serve. my wife didn't sign up. she knows if for some reason the threats are enough they saw facility to do that. this is really ugly stuff. if we were rocked by the sight of the political violence on january 6th, what is it? what event is going to make people realize that enough is enough and there are human beings on the other end of this dehumaniing rhetoric. this isn't the normal political attacks. what leads to the kind of sthauf the post reported today, really dehumanizing rhetoric that's the first step towards actual violence. >> such an important point. thank you to both of you for sticking around. when we come back, shrinkage, the shrinking power of the trump endorsement. what happened last night in georgia may be a sign that some republicans are ready to move on. we'll explain next. we'll explain next

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after yesterday's primary results in georgia the editor of "the cook political report" of the state said it's, quote, trump's kryptonite. georgia republican voters rebuked trump for the second time in a month by rejecting his picks for a pair of open u.s. house seats. vernon jones who tried to transform himself into a far right republican was walloped by mike collins despite boasting of

trump's endorsement. jake evans fell to dr. rich mccormick in the sixty district race that described the georgia attorney as a maga warrior who would fight for his priorities in washington. remember this: trump was similarly embarrassed in georgia, his guy, david perdue got blown out in the primary for governor. brad raffensperger's opponent failed spectacularly as well. >> cornell belcher, msnbc contributor. matt dowd, what do you see? >> well, i think we have to stop looking at the environment through the prism of whether or not donald trump wins or loses and how that defines the republican party. georgia is an outlier in this. 94% of people that donald trump have won he's endorsed. that's a pretty good record for

donald trump. i think the worst thing is, which i actually think is far more dangerous. nearly every republican candidate who has wong a primary, a republican whether endorsed by donald trump or not, either pushes the big lie, is an election denier or doesn't have a problem with the move towards autocracy. it's a little bit like chernobyl. what led to chernobyl was bad design, misinformation and bad decision making by people there. just because you remove a person that hit a wrong switch and contributed to the meltdown doesn't mean you don't have nuclear disaster that spreads. even if you take that person out, donald trump, the republican party has become a toxic waste dump of this big lie autocracy and denialism. that's i think the fundamental

problem. there is not republicans winning who don't buy into a problem that the january 6th is investigating. >> cornell, i take a similar view as mathew. i think after he lost in 2020, trump wasn't the story on the right anymore. it was that trumpism had corroded the republican party. i was thinking of -- i think james carville, the economy, stupid. it's the autocrat, stupid. how do you make that mean something? how do you make that matter? >> first, nicolle, before i tackle that, i want to say i think you and i had a disagreement before the january 6th committee started, and it looked like you were more right than i was, because -- >> no one does that. no one comes on tv and says that. thank you. i don't think that's right though. i know where you're going with this. we're talking about breaking through, right? >> right now it looks like

you're more right than i am. the polling right now, it is at least 6% or 7%, more people think donald trump should, in fact, be indicted and prosecuted in this. you do see movement in this. whether or not it will have an electoral impact, i don't know. i think right now the verdict -- the verdict leans more towards you being right than me. i've got to come clean on this. >> there's still time for me to be wrong. >> the other piece of this, i just want to double down on the earlier point. it's not about trump anymore. it is -- they're all perpetuators of the same grievance politics, the same politics that to a certain accord of voters, something is being stolen from you, you're being robbed of something, that you're losing your country and you have to do something about it. so whether it be trump -- endorse trump or not, it's the same politics of grievance, and

that is so dangerous and whether or not you're supported by trump or not, they all embrace that and it's mobilizing. >> the thing, too, matthew, the opportunity for democrats is immense. the party that is taking things from american citizens is the republican party, taking your right to be safe in school, taking your right to make choices about your own body and not a government mandated pregnancy, taking away your right to vote, how do you get that party on offense against a party that is actually trying to take things away? >> i would agree with you, and i would add, too, taking your right to live a healthy and fulfilled life and be respected because of your sexuality or because of your faith or lack of faith. it's all of those things. it's actually the fundamentals of what was supposed to be the ideals of the constitution as

we're supposed to move to a more perfect union. they want to diminish all of those things. i think the democrats, and i've said this before, and i know you and cornell have heard me say before, they need to take a playbook out of what the republicans have done for the last 25 or 30 years and run a big values-based campaign based on fundamental huge things, not small ball, whether or not you're going to get your student loans forgiven or any or all of those things. a big thing about who we are as mary cans, how we treat each other and how we build communities from neighborhood to neighborhood to neighborhood in all those different ways. i would say -- as i've said, there's a third of the voters that you can't even worry act. that's been the history of the country since the beginning, a third who don't buy in that all

people are created equally. they don't buy in and never have. there are two-thirds of the country who buy into the ideals of the american experiment. that's what i think democrats need to run on. i'll say this again, i've said it before. if democrats get in the weeds, they lose. weeds, they lose. if they raise this up to a big race about a big thing, which is the american-the democratic republic that we have, they have a real shot to push against the tide that normally happens in a mid-term. >> i want to ask but the elephant in the room. we're all waiting anxiously doesn't capture it, with dread, for the supreme court's final batch of decisions. if they do what is expected, they will overturn a constitutional right that we have had for 50 years. how do you tell a story about the court being so opposed and hostile to the majority of the american people in an

electorally successful way? >> yeah, well, first let me tell you, democrats love the weeds. they like to roll around in the weeds, smoking the weeds, democrats love the weeds. i'm with you. to get them out of the weeds, they want to get into the weeds. it's a fight we have every day. the roll thing is important because i think it is an opportunity to mobilize, and i think it is an opportunity to talk about, and you see it in the polling. all the polling, the issue of abortion. it is now a front and center issue. it is doubling as an issue. and particularly for younger voters, particularly for younger women voters, and the democratic base cohorts who were by the way, not necessarily mobilized.

it is an absolute mobilization opportunity. and there is also a middle of the road conversation here that should ring strong with even moderates and conservatives. what the court is saying is that, you know, it was taking, you know, a radical take where we're going to take an individual's power and give that power to the state and politicians. you can make the argument that never in our history has, have we ever seen this sort of radical stripping away of individual rights and power and given to the state. how that can sit well with middle of the road voters and even moderate and conservative voters is problematic. and nicole, the other thing about this, you even see some republican women. there is a good percentage of republican women right now who

are very uncomfortable with this decision, and some of these state races. if democrats play this well, this could be the difference between a couple points of mobilization and one or two points in the horse race if in fact, as my friend would say, democrats would get the hell out of weeds and take on these big issues. these values. >> it is not conservative, right, to hand over your body to the state. it's really, it is a tragic moment for women. it's an incredible opportunity for democrats. we have an aim for the segment. thank you so much, everybody. a quick break for us. we will be right back. we will be right back.

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welcome to "the beat." i'm ari melber. we begin with breaking news on what are signs of the intersection between the hearings we've been covering and the actual criminal investigations and prosecutions. the doj dropping two new subpoenas today targeting a trump elector in georgia who may have committed