good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, june 23rd. lot to cover this morning. three days before the attack on the capitol, donald trump met with top justice department officials inside the oval office and reportedly scolded them for not helping him overturn the election. today those officials will testify before january 6th select committee. the final two hearings scheduled for this month have now been postponed as the committee tries to work in new information it says it is receiving. some of that information may include footage from a documentary filmmaker who was embedded in the white house in the final months of the trump presidency. many white house officials didn't realize he was there. also, the latest from uvalde, texas, where the police chief

blamed for the botched response to the school massacre has been placed on administrative leave. and stunning underwater photos of an american swimmer being rescued by her coach after fainting during the world championships and sinking to the bottom of the pool. the swimmer is okay. this is not the first time this happened to her. we'll explain what's going on there. along with joe, willie is back and me. we have former chairman of the republican national committee michael steel and white house bureau chief at "politico" and host of "way too early." good to have you all onboard. >> i have a couple things i want to start with today. >> you're warning me. >> i have a couple things on my mind. i need the american flag and i need to talk. i have about five minutes. really, yesterday you missed -- i have to tell you, you missed a very special moment in washington politics.

there was an aticus finch like character who testified before the january 6th committee. he was a speaker of the arizona house. it was moving. i was talking about jesus yesterday because he was talking about jesus. i was talking about how we baptists always believe in redemption. and his testimony to -- let's break it down. he said i love jesus. jesus devinely inspired the constitution of the united states. >> he said it better than that. >> donald trump and his team ask me to undermine jesus' work here on earth with the u.s. constitution. and to do what donald trump asked me to do would tear away at the very essence of my soul as a public servant and as a christian. i was threatened and abused by gun toting people that

terrorized my daughter and neighbors with guns. and, yes, vote for trump again in a second if i had a chance. now willie -- willie? i am a baptist. a backsliding baptist at that. that's why i believe in redemption. but we can't just hand out redemption like -- from a pez dispenser. this guy has got to work with us. he's got to work with us. and i got to say, if i could think of something that defines the trump era and what it has done to my conservative movement, what it has done to my republican party, what it has done to my church, to evangelicals. i would say he is typical and

against everything i'm for. he undermines my faith. he undermines the work of christ on earth. he threatened me. he threatened my family. he threatened my neighbors. and i would vote for him again. now that is either a cult or that is just such a raw pursuit of power and such a fear of losing an election that anybody saying that either needs to be checked out at a mental hospital or just checked out of public life. he needs to just retire. the two, they don't go together. >> at least he told the truth. >> yeah. it was stirring testimony sitting there watching it. it was, wow. he stood in the door. he wasn't going to violate his oath. this is more important. this is bigger than one man. it's about the state, country, elections and democratic

process. but i'd still vote for him. as you point out, he's not alone. we heard the same from former attorney general bill barr whose testimony in the january 6th committee hearings has been central to the case that committee is making. he said, no, mr. president, the election was not stolen. you need to stop this bs. later when asked would you vote for donald trump? of course i would vote for the republican nominee. if that is donald trump, i'll vote for him. there are other people that have written entire books about saving the republican party. prominent figures. i'm going to save the party from donald trump. would you vote for him? yeah, if he's the nominee, of course i'd vote for him. so it's not just this man but you're right, joe. that is to me, that is just boiled down the essence of this moment in america. they know -- they all understand and now saying out loud in the hearings how bad he is, how close he brought us to the brink. yet, they're willing to do it all over again. by the way, it will be worse next time because the guardrails will be gone.

you won't have the adults in positions of power alongside donald trump. >> totally agree with you. st and still don't understand how the two go together. that you were putting there, joe. at the same time, the reason why i thought that it was impressive maybe profiling courage is too far. he answered the questions. he told the truth. he told what went wrong. he told why it was wrong. how it went to the core of our democracy, our constitution, this sacred document. i feel like it emphasized even more the problem, the fact that he would still vote for him. i think it's actually compelling. no? >> well, i guess. perhaps. i mean -- you know, this is michael steel. this is like -- >> this is the problem. >> if i'm calling him aticus finch, this is like him saying

he bob yule is a racist. he is responsible for the death of a black man. bob yule tried to kill my son. bob yule tried to beat up my daughter. bob yule spit in my face and, yes, if bob yule ran for mayor for my town, i'd vote for him in a second. it doesn't make any sense. and i wonder are these people -- is this his virtue to say to voters, yeah, i'd vote for him again. i just actually destroyed him publicly. do you really think when good old rusty got into the voting booth he would vote for donald trump again after he traumatized his dying daughter in her final days? after his neighbors were threatened with guns because of donald trump? after he undermind -- do you really think he would vote for donald trump again? or is this republican virtue signalling? >> i think he would.

and i think that no one ever follows up with the important -- the most important question -- why? why would you do it? because the reality is for someone like bowers is the same with barr. at the end of the day, they still believe that, yes, trump is a threat constitutionally and for those reasons that we have been outlining. but when they look across the aisle, this he see that -- they see biden and the democrats as a greater threat. they think they're grooming our children and the cultural narratives. you know, bob bowers, stated in testimony, is a strong hard right conservative. right? so it makes sense to me to hear him say trump is a threat to our constitution and i stood in the doorway to stop him, but looking at what my other choices are, if

he's on the ballot, then i'm going to support him because at the end of the day, you know, i'll stand in that doorway to fight him for the constitution. because i know he won't take us down these cultural paths. he won't ruin our economy. he won't do all the narratives that you hear republicans talk about and owning the lips. it begs the question, is there someone else other than trump, does that scenario change? that's what this election is going to be about coming up in '24. >> you can always say if you choose the destruction of the united states constitution over 8.6% inflation globally -- >> right. >> i mean yikes. >> yeah. >> i will say the negative partisanship, especially on the side of republicans really is a cancer. all they do, they run around

chirping. all my friends run around chirping but what about nancy pelosi? joe biden is president. but he's not running it. kamala harris is running it. it's all negative partisanship. can you really justify somebody that you believe is not only trying to undermine the constitution of the united states of america but also attacking, jonathan, the very essence in his words of god's work on earth. how do you go from that to saying, yeah, you know, true. he's undermining my savior's work on earth. but, you know, easing on the left is troubling. i don't know how you square it up. this guy knows, by the way. this guy knows that the lies

that republican party spreading about crt, the lies about how they're trying to make every 4-year-old, you know, consider being transgender. this guy knows those are all lies. so again, i'm just -- it's fascinating. why are we going on about it this long? because it speaks to the moral rot in the republican party that this is personal to me. that my conservative movement, my political party, my church has allowed this false idol, this false prophet to come in and just bleet all the things they want to hear. this guy is always for abortion. no, i'm pro-life. this guy that is for gun control. now saying oh, no. you know, was it white -- why

was it that easy? and why is it still that easy for him even after they understand he tried to destroy the american democracy. by the speaker's own words. >> my god. >> yeah. the speaker, a man clearly of faith. he talks about his mormon religion quite a bit and talks about how he believes the constitution was devinely inspired. and yet, after condemning trump and trump's behavior and trump's allies' behavior saying he's going to do so again, vote for him again. and to the question you asked michael. if in the safety of the ballot box would he in that private moment actually vote for donald trump? i tend to agree with michael he would. but even if he wouldn't, isn't it worse that he's lying and saying he would? because he was so desperate to keep that degree of power. so desperate to push republican voters to say, hey, i'm still on your side here. clearly the decision that he and

those like him have made is that donald trump was the greatest threat to this democracy since the civil war. and, yet, somehow what the threat that democrats pose is worse. they're socialists, endangering the whole system. we can't be the american republic with them in charge. and it does get into some very dark questions as to what they're wondering about. but mr. bowers is far from alone. we mentioned william barr. remember, mitch mcconnell, the senate minority leader who has on a number of times tried to stand up to trump. he condemned him from the senate floor during the second impeachment trial and voted to acquit him. he has condemned him other times in his behavior and how he tried to destroy the republican party and also said that if trump were the nominee he would vote for him again. it's the attempt to hold on to power. >> willie, this is not new. we saw paul ryan in 2016 called donald trump a racist.

say what donald trump said is the epitome of racism. and the next day he endorsed him. again, how he -- how do you get from donald trump is a racist to i endorse donald trump? is a party really that important to you? that sick? i mean it's sick for republicans. i said very clearly, when the guy started trotting out nazi ideas like muslim registries and the entire party should have broken away from him at that point. the entire party. much worse than that, when he started spewing this nazi rhetoric about muslim registries, muslim bans, that was just the beginning of the republican establishment moving to him. >> yeah. there's no question about it. can you go do you remember the list of prominent people, some people running against him. 2016, ted cruz, marco rubio who

couldn't bear to have donald trump in the party and thought he was disgusting, horrible things to say about him until they didn't. now they'll do anything for donald trump. and michael steel mentioned the idea of someone else perhaps rising in the party that could give people like mr. bowers someone else to vote for in that ballot box. this is a very small snapshot. a new poll of republican likely voters in new hampshire showing florida governor ron desantis has closed the gap with donald trump. eight months ago trump led desantis by 25 points in a university of new hampshire poll. now desantis leads by two points. statistical tie with donald trump in that poll in the state of new hampshire. the poll also shows desantis would outperform trump against joe biden. trump loses by ten points. desantis with a one point edge. it's one poll. a tiny sample size. but when you look at the trend line there and just a few

months, ron desantis closing the gap by 25 points maybe at least in new hampshire and elsewhere, people are looking for someone else who can be that cultural warrior without all the trump baggage. >> that poll does actually matter. it's a new poll. if a poll is from new hampshire or from south carolina and it shows that type of trend line, even a couple years out, it shows where republicans are thinking the most important primary state in america. so, yeah, that poll matters. there is another poll though, michael, that i find far more striking. can we put up the biden versus trump poll? it's so important for people to understand this. somebody that is very close to trump, i tried to get this message across to them six months ago. they said do you think if you ran again he could win? i said no. as i said, before the people that donald trump lost between 2016 and 2020, they're gone

forever. they may never vote for biden. they may hate everything joe biden is doing. but like i always say about the biden voters in those focus groups, they will trash joe biden's policies. they will say in the last answer they don't regret their vote. joe biden up side down in most swing states. maggie is in for the fight of her life. how unpopular joe biden is in new hampshire right now. >> but just as ron johnson -- hold on. just as ron johnson and just as other republicans have said, the only republican that could have lost in 2020 was donald trump. here we see this same thing playing out. votes that donald trump lost, he's not getting back.

there's no way to get the swing voters in north atlanta and new hampshire in the suburbs of philadelphia. they're gone forever. and i just wonder if the republican party is going to figure that out. >> i think they are. that's what the new hampshire polls are showing. i think what you're seeing is governor desantis has craftily and stealthfully in some sense positioned himself as a better version of donald trump. people say without the baggage. i think he's just as dangerous if not more so. i just look at what he's doing in florida. but at the end of the day, that doesn't -- that's going to matter less for a lot of the voters to your point who have swung off of trump are now looking for some place to go. desantis offers that port for them to land in. and the reality for trump is how does he now come back? what's his narrative going to be within the party to hold his

place as the top dog? and new hampshire shows there is a path way. of we heard it in the hearings, joe. just from secretary about the fact that trump in the '20 election you had voters that voted down ballots skip president. those are the voters you're talking about. they're not coming back. that 38,000 vote gam for those who say i'll go for everybody else on, you know, every other republican except trump, is the problem that trump presents for the party going into '24. desantis right now seems to be a gateway to something that gives them a competitive edge over the democrat at the presidential level. >> when i mention baggage, what i mean is what we hear from republicans all the time, the backward looking from donald trump. so, in other words, if he runs in 2024 and all he's talking about is the 2020 election was

stolen from him, that makes a lot of republicans roll eyes and say please, we got president biden on the ropes. his numbers are low. the wrong track number is high. inflation. we have all these things going for us. let's not talk about 2020. i think a lot of republicans that you talk to and i do too belief desantis could be forward looking and not look back at an election he claim was stolen. >> you look at his speeches. even the one this past week. they are all backward looking. and they're all the greatest hits from 2016 and not performed well with all due respect to the king of rock & roll. this is fat elvis in '77, huffing and puffing and sweating and bloated. like, barely being able to get -- you know, the scarves out from around his neck. i don't think republicans want this. again, there are, because as i always said and as you know, as

goes nationalist so goes france. you look at this poll. you look what the is happening. what i've been saying about macron? i said the french voters didn't like macron. but they thought lapan understood their plight better. but lapan was crazy. they said we to vote for macron. we saw that. the same thing with donald trump. and, yet, this past week you actually had macron's party get hammered because they could vote for an idea without voting for lapan. and there are actually parallels between what is happening in france and what is happening in the united states right now with donald trump. you have a person leading the party that most americans now think is far too crazy. to be president of the united states. they're exhausted by him. they're exhausted by his lies. they're exhausted by him looking back. we, of course, are concerned and

some would say obsessed. because though he only has support of 40, 41% of americans, we don't understand how 41% of americans could support someone if they call themselves conservatives that trying to shred the democracy. and the risks of him possibly winning in 2024 are so great that it's not something we can turn our eyes from. >> absolutely not. >> but that said, you look at this new hampshire poll. put it up one more time. joe biden under water in every poll. joe biden with the lowest ratings that he's had. and yet, joe biden beating donald trump in new hampshire because -- well, it's donald trump. i dare say joe biden wouldn't reach 50% right now. it's early. get your paper bag, breathe into it. don't hyperventilate. it's early. you about right now joe biden

wouldn't be at 50% against any republican you can put up there other than donald trump. it's a fascinating snapshot. we thank the university of new hampshire for this poll. and ron desantis, man, he has overtaken donald trump. and again, the most important swing -- the most important primary state in republican politics. >> so we have a lot to cover this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," heightened security concerns for committee members ahead of the public hearing surrounding the attack on the capitol. the latest from ukraine. amid new reporting that russian forces have pushed deeper into the eastern donbas region. and president biden prepares to head to europe with a focus on the on going war. we'll be joined by the u.s. ambassadors to poland and ukraine. also this morning, president

calls for a temporary pause on the federal gas tax. there is skepticism from congress and even from members of biden's own party. what jerome powell is saying about the possibility of a recession. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. we'll be right back. mamá, growing up... you were so good to me. you worked hard to save for my future. so now... i want to thank you. i started investing with vanguard to help take care of you, like you took care of me. te quiero, mamá. only at vanguard you're more than just an investor you're an owner. helping you take care of the ones you love. that's the value of ownership. so this is the meta portal plus. a smart video calling device

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speech at the white house yesterday, the president urged congress to pass a three month gas tax holiday. the move would suspend the federal tax on gas which is about 18 cents a gallon. it would also temporarily suspend the tax on diesel will fuel at 24 cents a gallon. >> i fully understand that the gas tax holiday alone is not going to fix the problem. but it will provide families some immediate relief, just a little bit of breathing room as we continue working to bring down prices for the long haul. >> president biden is also asking states to suspend their own gas taxes which he says could bring prices down as much as $1 per gallon. that would make a difference. but many economists and lawmakers from both parties view the idea with skepticism and suggest it won't do much to help consumers. house speaker nancy pelosi was

noncommittal on it. senate minority leader mitch mcconnell quickly dismissed the idea calling it "a silly proposal." >> wait. he wants to cut taxes on -- he wants to cut taxes on -- >> how could that be silly. >> cut taxes when people are suffering? is there just -- can the government not take enough of americans' money? i'm serious. joe biden wants to give americans some money back at the pump. when they're suffering. why does mitch mcconnell think it's silly to help working class americans? his proposal actually would help working class americans the most. it would help middle class americans the most. >> what republicans have? what have they offered? what are the ideas? i'd love to know how they would save the economy. wouldn't it be great if maybe they have better ideas. >> and the words -- no. no. no. that's their idea.

no. brian sullivan, hopefully he doesn't know that was a bad imitation. here's my only problem. >> the white bread and brown bread, joe. what kind of bread do you want? >> okay. he knows. he knows. >> sorry. >> no, that's okay. so i'm curious. we have a guy from alabama, a guy from virginia tech trying to do acts. we should wait until our 11:00 p.m. hour. we can go straight through. so brian, i like the idea of a gas tax holiday right now when people are hurting. my only problem is i don't know that it actually will get passed on to consumers because maybe people running gas stations will say okay, well we'll just keep the money ourselves. what say you? >> well, it's entirely possible

and also not just me university of pennsylvania warton school of business in april did a study about this and said we could have as little as 40% that is passed through. so if you just do the basic math, 18 cents a gallon, let's say 40% is passed through and the average american use 50z gallons a month, you're looking at a household savings of $4 a month. maybe $5 to $10 a month. i mean, i'm not saying that doesn't matter at all. but that's very small money in comparison to how everything else is going. i think the diesel side, 24 cents a gallon, not only is more relevant, bigger but also diesel is far more important in the inflationary aspects, joe, and we get the supply chain for everything. trucks, rail, giant ships. that's all diesel fuel. so maybe if you bring that off that we're seeing some logistic supply chain transportation costs come down. by wait, there is also a meeting. the secretary of energy is

meeting with gas ceos today. i confirmed that meeting is scheduled to go to 11:15 and go to noon. it's hard to get a lot done in 45 minutes. listen, here's the reality about energy prices right now. there is not a lot we can do. some fear lowering costs may drive up demand because people say it's a little cheaper now, why don't i get on the road? i have breaking news you may be interested in. regarding kentucky. mitch mcconnell's home state, century aluminum, a big aluminum company there announcing they're idle willing one of the plants because the price of power is too high and 600 people are going to be laid off from that century aluminum factory. this is military grade aluminum as well, joe. so here's the real world impact of higher energy costs, 600 kentuckians losing their good jobs at the century aluminum factory. hopefully it comes back online

soon. >> that's rough. >> we'll keep an eye on that. jonathan, the president's decision to go ahead with this gas tax holiday, democratic criticism and from the treasury department and the concern and the voice yesterday was this is going to make oil companies a lot of money. we're not sure it makes it all the way down to the consumer. the how did the white house arrive at this? >> it took months. this is something the president posed. he came to this idea reluctantly. we heard him talk about how he feels he knows it won't make a big difference. he feels like every little bit helps. it is also important last he is showing americans that they're trying. but there is a very real possibility this will never come to be. certainly republicans don't seem inclined to support it. democrats as well feeling it will deplete height way fund. that's where the gas tax goes. keep that full. they don't feel this will make a difference. "the wall street journal" did a story talking to people in connecticut, a state that waved

the gas tax. consumers didn't notice a difference. they don't think this will be much of anything. they feel like they need to just sort of show. prices rising across the board, no the just at the gas pump h we know the president when he goes to europe he'll talk again about the impact that the ban on russian oil energy has had on this. rising prices. but this is them just sort of scrambling for others. there will be others that come down later this summer. >> i just got back from california. there were 7s on the board, $7 a gallon, some places $6.99. we're not going on that road trip. that's i can't commute to work. it's unsustainable. >> yeah. it is unsustainable. michael, i want to ask you a quick political question. >> sure. >> we continue to talk about the differences between republicans and democrats. if chuck schumer had said suspending gas tax, suspending

the gas tax during a time of massive inflation, when middle class and working class americans were working, republicans would take that quote and they would hammer him and every democrat for months. mitch mcconnell just said that cutting taxes, federal taxes, is a silly idea. that cutting taxes during, like, the biggest inflationary surge in gas prices across america. the number one issue for americans right now, by the way, is a silly idea. this is a difference between republicans and democrats. you know, i guarantee you if it was when i was in congress and the democrat -- a democratic leader said this, i would be giving a speech on the floor and every other republican member would be giving a speech on the floor. and we would never let -- people

would say it's not a big deal. it is a big deal. this adds up. it just shows democrats don't know how to fight. >> no. they don't. >> they need to learn. it's so frustrating. so take this in the order of things. you're right. if chuck schumer had come out and said that before the ink dried, mitch mcconnell would have been talking about the american worker and how profoundly, you know, tone deaf schumer is and how this 18 cents is going to be important to the american worker. it goes to two other things. one is we blew by what mika said which i thought was the most important point. okay. >> of course. >> mitch, what is your plan? how would you, you're poised to

take back one chamber of the congress. maybe both. what is your plan to deal with $7 a gallon gas? just give us some ideas. you don't want to cut 18 cents off the federal tax? tell me what you're going to do. tell me before i go to the polls it in november so i have a sense of which party is working for me. which one is just flapping the trap. right? the second thing, to brian's point is we just blew by the point that 40% of this is all we'll see out of the 18 cents? the oil companies may not pass it on? what the hell. if the federal government cuts the federal tax, you mean shell and others are going to say well we're not going to pass that on to the consumer. so that's the problem. that's how we don't get out of this. the fed chairman is saying what is the case. we're on the press hiss of a

recession. the moment he acknowledges that, the stock market goes crazy. like oh, we got to sell. but then ten minutes later turns around and goes back up. the american people are getting whipsawed and are looking for someone to step up with some understanding of how this economy works. if you don't know, then just shut up about it and put economists out this to explain us through this thing. >> yeah. and again, mika, this goes back to what i was saying that joe biden needed to do. they have no good idea when it comes to inflation. they're going to bitch about inflation. they can't -- oh, are they going to -- can they fix inflation in the united states when there is inflation in the western world? it is even higher in britain. can they fix inflation in the united states when it is higher in the netherlands or poland? can they fix inflation when it is global trends from china,

from the war, from a lot of different things. they can point -- >> food shortages. >> spending early on in this administration for covid relief. the only problem is they spent so much more when they were running the joint. so they have not. so the thing to do is for joe biden to call every republican in. call every republican leader in. say inflation summit. let's come into the white house. give me your ideas. >> we need that. >> camera is running. i need your ideas. i need to understand. you're so smart. and i'm just a simple cave man president. so please come into the white house and tell me what is your plan? i have to understand. i do not understand. i don't understand the micro and macro economics. so help caveman lawyer and president figure out how to get inflation down. >> if i'm not mistaken, joe, what we see is a loop from republicans and right-wing media of joe biden falling off a bike.

joe biden's energy crisis, his gas prices, of joe biden's economy, of biden's this. great, what are your ideas? i would like to know, do they do anything but basically, like, throw stones, say things that are -- >> breaking news here, mika. willie, breaking news. breaking news. joe biden fell off his bike. >> oh, my god! >> hold on. more breaking news. >> donald trump tried to get his vice president killed. those are the two things. you just figure out how you want to prioritize those. you may not want to show the part of the hearings where he tried to kill his vice president. we'll see joe biden falling off a bike in a p loop. the thing is, willie, again, call their bluff. they can't do anything about inflation. donald trump during his four years, they raised deficits. they raised the debt. they raised spending at record

rates. the highest deficits in history. the highest debt in history. the biggest bloated budgets in american history under donald trump. so say okay. come on in, einstein. tell us what you're going to do to bring down inflation. i'm all ears. >> do it. >> and they haven't been tibl do -- haven't been able to do that. republicans don't have that answer. this is going to be the centerpiece of this midterm season where republicans now believe not only will they take the house but senate as well going into the second half of president biden's first term with majorities -- republican majorities and gridlock in washington. it's going to be about inflation. that number is not going to come down significantly by november. gas prices will come down a little, we hope. but not significantly. and it will all be pinned on joe biden whether he likes it or not. >> let me tell you this. if you want to know the secret

to curing inflation, not only in the united states of america but across the globe, i have two words for you. herschel walker. he's coming up next. >> he has the answers. >> you have a question? he has the answer. >> okay. >> and a whole lot more. what's coming up, mika? >> coming up, a key region in ukraine could be close to falling under russian control. we'll get an expert analysis on this developing situation from the president of the foreign relations richard hos. later this morning, we continue the conversation on the war with u.s. ambassador to ukraine, bridget brink and u.s. abc to poland. o poland -dad, what's with your toenail? -oh, that...? i'm not sure...

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now to the latest from ukraine and president biden's upcoming trip to europe. the president heads to germany on saturday for the g-7. then to the nato summit in spain for the goal of keeping allies committed to supporting ukrainians through what could be a month's long bloody battle of attrition. the challenge will get the coalition is trying anyway to stay the course to keep funneling money and weapons to ukraine even as the country's say economic hits because of sanctions on russian gas and oil. joining us now, the president of the council on foreign relations. great to see you, richard. president has even a taller task this time than he did when he was in europe a couple months ago when it feels like the world was laser focused on ukraine and willing to money and aid and weapons into that country. what is that challenge for him as he heads to germany on saturday? >> what he is fighting for and i call war fatigue. you have millions in poland and

elsewhere. you fear the war will expand to europe. russia is weaponizing energy dependence. cutoffs, threats, europeans are not ready and other things for a gas cutoff, particularly in italy and germany which are highly dependent. inflation here and also there. you have a lot of issues. it's one thing to have a reaction early on. this is the new normal. you see in europe all the other things going on. the french elections, britain, the elections there against the prime minister. it's no the a comfortable happy content europe. the president himself has had poll numbers continue to slip since then. democrats certainly nervous about november. second part of the bbb, nato. there is belief that some sort of deal will be struck with turkey to get sweden and finland in. but more immediately, who is

betting that western resolve will wayne because of inflation, because of prices and war fatigue? how does biden combat that? >> look, the only way to combat is remind people of the stakes and say here's what we're doing. put pressure on them to do more how we help them out on the energy front. what we really needed to have some serious plans in the short run in case russia does weaponize gas cutoffs, how we fill some of that and in the meantime we need a transition plan. we are still funding the war. the single most important thing that can come out of this trip besides to amp up arms exports to ukraine is how do we accelerate above all the transition from western gas to middle eastern gas. europe has to build onshore or offshore natural gas terminals to import it. it's to get going on that. that is the single most important thing. i've got to tell you, we could be facing a situation, jonathan,

where in one or two years we would still be funding this war effort for vladimir putin. >> you know, richard, we're going to have to have a discussion about how we want to help the europeans. we want the europeans off of russian oil. we can deal with the saudis which people find offensive. we can increase our capabilities, our refineries in the united states which progressives find offensive. there's not -- there's no easy way to do this. joe biden is going to have to face down progressives in his own party and stop the virtue signaling and twitter start up -- stop the virtue signaling if they want to stop the spread of putinism across europe. >> it's actually less oil and coal. oil and coal are what they call fungible. the russians have found other places to export, to india, to

china their oil and coal. the real question is gas. you have to have pipelines. it takes years to build new ones. europeans quite honestly have made a bad situation worse. the germans by continuing to shut down nuclear plants. this makes zero sense in terms of energy security but also, by the way, makes zero sense in terms of climate change. just today iran reached, listen to this, 126 degrees in iran. the hottest place on earth this year. you've got this big climate change conference in egypt coming in december. guess what? we will have lost ground over the last year because of energy security concerns. the world is burning more coal than ever before. we continue to phase out nuclear. it just absolutely makes no sense. we've got to learn how to deal with multiple crises. we've got an immediate crisis in ukraine. we've got this growing crisis

all over the world and quite honestly things are going from bad to worse. >> we have to say and people have to start listening, we've been talking -- i've been talking for 25 years about the need to reduce our carbon footprint and bring energy to this country by building nuclear plants. they're safer than ever. no carbon footprint. if we had started doing what many people with vision had suggested 15, 20, 25 years ago, we would be in a far different place right now. but you're right, germany going in the wrong direction, many people going in the wrong direction right now. again, instead of doing what obama talked about which is all of the above, and all of the above approach to energy security, it's just the opposite. we're going in the wrong direction. >> yeah, we are. not all fossil fuels are the same. natural gas has a much lower

carbon footprint than coal so we ought to be accelerating that. obviously there's renewables. all the things you do to use less fuel. lowering the gas tax will just encourage people to drive a little more. we don't have any answers to this. it's very hard for democracies to deal with slow motion crises. we're not so good dealing with real crises but we have problems dealing with crises that haven't hit with full force yet. we see it with debt, another issue which is just going to get worse as interest rates go up, we see it with climate. it's very hard for political leaders to talk about things and galvanize any sort of a public response while you still have options. the danger is you miss that moment, run out of options and have no choice. >> well, the climate crisis is here. it's been here. there have been so many things that we could have done that we

did not do. and again, we still seem to be going in the wrong direction. let me finally ask you about france, germany, and some countries who early on said all the right things, talked about increasing their military budgets, and now according to zelenskyy, they can't wait to get back into russia. business people are trying to figure out ways around the sanctions right now, trying to continue to make money off of russia. and militarily they seem to be all talk. very little action. what is going on with germany? what is going on with russia? are they in this fight or not? >> the answer is they're half in and half not. a couple of things are going on. one is the fear about losing access to russian energy in the short run before europeans are ready for it would obviously mean high unemployment and economic contraction. they're worried about the widening of the war.

and then in places like france given the rise of the new right and far left, given germany, you have some very romantic i think terribly misinformed views about russia. you actually have germans talking about not alienating russia. you have the french president talking about not humiliating russia. what they haven't figured out is this is not the russia they thought they knew. putin's russia is qualitatively different. >> wait, wait, wait, wait, richard. do they not have television sets in france and germany? do they not see what vladimir putin is doing to civilians. do they not see him actually targeting hospitals just like he did in syria, targeting apartment buildings, having his soldiers shoot ukrainians in the street in cold blood? do they not see that? what is romantic about that to france and germany? >> they see that, but that was

yesterday's pictures. the effect of those have faded. what they see is this large country on whom they're economically dependent. they're worried about militarily. when you see is a cynical politic. if we allow putin to prevail, if we allow him to succeed, why does anyone think he's going to stop in eastern southern ukraine, not just in ukraine. who else might he target in europe. what lesson might china learn against taiwan and so forth. there is an enormous amount at stake here. that's the president's challenge, making sure people don't lose sight of it. >> richard haass, thank you very much. still ahead, we'll get to today's hearing for the january 6th committee. it is the last one for at least a few weeks. we'll tell you why the panel is pushing back its schedule and

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top of the hour, a live look from capitol hill where the fifth hearing into the january 6th attack gets under way this

afternoon, focused on donald trump's efforts to pressure justice department officials into helping him overturn the election. we could also learn the names of more lawmakers who sought pardons for their involvement in the big lie. nothing went wrong, but you need a pardon? plus president biden calls for a federal gas tax holiday to give americans a break at the pump, but would it? steve rattner will break down what it means for drivers and the overall economy. jonathan lemire and michael steele still with us. joining the conversation we have former u.s. senator, now an nbc news and msnbc political analyst, claire mccaskill. >> claire, it's so good that you're here. i can ask you this question because i know you have the answer. we have the speaker of the house of arizona talking about how he's a man of deep faith. >> we've been debating this. >> and donald trump actually

under undermined god's work here on earth by trying to undo the constitution of the united states, threatened his family, threatened his neighbors with guns, made his life a living and breathing hell and then when asked said of course i would jump for donald trump again. we're not just picking on rusty. of course we brought up the fact in 2016 paul ryan called donald trump a racist and the next day endorsed him. please, please, give us your insight. how does somebody testify and say that they believe god's work on earth was undermined by donald trump and that cuts at the very core of their being, but, yeah, i'll vote for him again. >> yeah. cancel the ticker tape parade for rusty bowers. listen, we can all admire the political courage that the republicans who have resisted this conspiracy to overthrow the

will of the american people, but it is striking that the republicans are still willing to support donald trump in light of what this committee has unearthed and what these guys know. these men and women know that donald trump is a liar. they know that he doesn't even have a close relationship with the truth on a variety of really important things. so if they don't want donald trump to be president, when are they going to start saying it? and i don't get it. frankly, you guys talked about the new hampshire poll in the last hour. you know, donald trump is going to struggle as a republican nominee. so why aren't republicans standing up and saying, you know, it's time to move on. and just cancel this guy. i don't get it. >> they're afraid of him. they're afraid of him, despite

what we've seen in this committee. there's more coming today. the fifth hearing this afternoon of the january 6 select committee. the final one of the month. bennie thompson says the ones that were scheduled for next week are postponed until july because of the flow of new information the committee is getting and evidence it needs to assess. today's hearing will focus on donald trump's effort to get the justice department to help him overturn the 2020 election. it's been reported and we've discussed when jeffrey rosen resisted trump's pressure, the former president came close to replacing him with a mid-level koj environmental lawyer named jeffrey clark who had pushed to advance that big lie. today we'll hear testimony from the former acting a.g. who was nearly replaced as well as his deputy at the time, an assistant attorney general steve engel. the three witnesses part of an extraordinary oval office meeting three days before the january 6 attack in which they

all told the president they would resign if he replaced rosen with clark. it was only then the president abandoned his plan. here is a clip from donoghue's deposition. >> the president says suppose i do this, suppose i replace jeff rosen with jeff clark. what do you do? i said, sir, i will resign immediately. there's no way i'm serving one minute under this guy, jeff clark. >> "the washington post" reports at one point when clark tried to tout his qualifications to be attorney general, donoghue shot back, how about go back to your office and we'll call you when there's an oil spill? so we talked about this last week, "the washington post" had all this reporting on it. you had donoghue and rosen running into the oval office to try to stop jeffrey clark, this guy way down the chain at the department of justice who was trying to usurp their power and become the attorney general by

telling donald trump exactly what he wanted to hear and that extraordinary moment where they basically told him to beat it and prevailed on donald trump to stay where they were. >> yeah. it is really interesting to me that those same republicans i referenced a minute ago that don't have the courage to stand up and say we want to support someone else for president in 2024, can you imagine who trump will surround himself with if he had a second term? think about the people who even though they weren't courageous and publicly speaking out, but everybody from kelly and mattis and even mcmaster and obviously, you know, at one point after he carried his bag for years, bill barr, kind of said no, no, we're not doing this. no, we're not going to bomb -- we're not going to drop a nuclear bomb on someone. no, we're not going to shoot protesters. no, we're not going to do the things that donald trump would suggest. he will surround himself with people like sydney powell and

rudy giuliani. can you imagine rudy giuliani as attorney general of the united states, the kind of damage that would be done? that's what's frightening about this. he's learned his lesson now. he's only going to have people that say what he wants to hear. >> let's bring in congressional investigations reporter for "the washington post," jackie. you have new reporting that members of the january 6 committee will likely receive a security detail due to a recent uptick in violent threats. on sunday, congressman adam kinzinger revealed a letter addressed to his wife that threatened to execute his family, including his 5-month-old child. here's what he had to say last night. >> the threats are constant. they have increased. i even heard a voice mail just this morning that we got last night threatening execution. that seems to be the normal thing nowadays is just threaten

execution. the depravity of what's existing out there, the exact that people would come up with an idea of killing a 5-month-old because you disagree with me being on the january 6 committee -- >> so, mika, again -- >> this is the very issue. >> -- we've talked about it the past several weeks, trumpism is fascism. if you look at january 6, if you look at the violent imagery, if you look at the violent threats, if you look at the death threats, we've seen it time and time again. if you even go back and look at donald trump glorifying violence in his rallies, telling people that beat up protesters, that he longed for the day that people were carried out on stretchers. if someone would beat up a protester, he would pay for their defense fund. speaking for police officers, telling them to beat up and rough up people that they arrest before they throw him in the back of the, quote, paddy wagon.

i don't know what decade this guy is living in. but violence -- again, it's violent imagery and violent words. it's the glorification of violence. like when he praised the republican congressman for beating up a reporter for asking a question about health care reform. >> yeah. >> and then it is, of course, violence in and of itself. just looking at january 6, him glorifying the people that beat the hell out of police officers and the police officers' families would say that he was responsible for the death of more than one police officer. this is the glorification of violence. this is urmt nationalism. this is fascism. and it's rising in america. >> so, jackie, i think this actually makes one of the points the committee is trying to make, that joe really articulated there. what more reporting do you have, because the hearings continue

but then they're also going to take a big pause. >> that's exactly right, mika. as these lawmakers are trying to expose and root out political violence, it's only incurring more political violence on them. these threats have been around quite some time. liz cheney has had a security detail for over a year and aides have previously told us that she's unable to hold large campaign events in wyoming because of such threats. but now all lawmakers are likely to receive a security detail going forward. these are not just threats coming in from random people on the internet, these are credible threats. that's what is required in order to warrant a security detail for lawmakers. lawmakers who have been a part of past investigations like the impeachment trials also received security details, but this spike in threats is fairly significant and it's only likely to increase going forward starting in july. the remaining hearings are going

to focus even more on the culture of political violence, on the right. jamie raskin and stephanie murphy, two lawmakers on the panel, are going to host that hearing on extremism that's really going to go in depth on sort of how people become radicalized on the right, what that process looks like and how they ultimately end up maybe being a part of qanon, proud boys, oath keepers, the 3%ers. these groups that have been mentioned but we haven't learned that much about and sort of their path to actually becoming radicalized and showing up on january 6th at the capitol to siege the electoral certification and how that continues to this very day. >> and on january 6 many supporters of donald trump proved how far they're willing to go using violence to protect him. this morning an interesting twist when the panel, the committee will hear testimony

from a documentarian who says he had unparalleled access to the trump administration in the final months. he's a british filmmaker named alex holder. he reportedly has handed over hours of material to the january 6 committee and will sit before lawmakers today for a closed door deposition. holder is behind a new three-part docu-series called unprecedented that premieres this summer. his team was given access to the white house from september of 2020 right up until president trump's departure and has never-before-seen footage from january 6th. that footage also reportedly has never been seen by its subjects, members of the trump team. the news that a camera was following them around for months came as a shock to many former officials. jonathan lemire, who is this guy, how much footage does he have? we've seen images of him with president trump, sitting with ivanka trump, in the white house as close as you can be with cameras on january 6th, the days leading up to january 6th, the

days that followed right until he left office. >> we've seen photos of him in the west wing with president trump. this morning playbook posted a picture of his name card on air force one, so we know holder traveled with the president at least once. this is an interesting twist. in trump world people i've talked to in the last 24 hours, most of them stunned. they didn't know who this person was. this esaw a camera around, some of them did, but didn't know the participation and didn't know the eventual purpose. so there's definitely some alarm among trump officials as to what they're going to be caught on video saying. we do know reports that ivanka trump, who we heard during the committee testimony saying that she believed the attorney general, william barr, that there wasn't any sign of voter fraud, is captured on video saying she believed her father and there were irregularities and he should fight. so, jackie, that's behind closed doors today but obviously we'll have an open hearing this afternoon about the department of justice. we've gone through some of it

already, including that already immortal line about oil spills, but what else are you looking out for today as the committee really zeros in on this pressure campaign from trump on doj? >> yeah, like any good real-life political thriller, i think there's going to be that through line of the good guys and bad guys as we've seen in these previous hearings. the officials in the department of justice being the good guys who stopped the former president from installing jeffrey clark as the head of the department of justice who was planning on sending this letter to battleground states asking them to potentially propose alternate fake, phony slates of electors because of unsubstantiated claims of election fraud. these three people, steven engel, jeff rosen and richard donoghue standing up to the former president and clark to stop this plan. but we're also going to hear about some of the house gop lawmakers who have so far refused to comply with the

january 6 committee's investigation and their involvement with trump's quest to overturn his defeat. scott perry, who mika just previously mentioned, was considered the top liaison from the house to former president trump and he's actually the person who introduced trump to jeffrey clark. liz cheney already teased that scott perry sought a pardon, indicating that he was potentially feeling like he was somewhat guilty or culpable for any potential crimes that were committed in the quest to overturn the results of the election. but there are a lot of outstanding questions. how does scott perry and jeffrey clark know each other? why did scott perry propose that jeffrey clark become involved in the department of justice and draft these letters that propagated unsubstantiated claims of election fraud? and where is the connective tissue on this phony slate of electors? that is something that we are seeing a lot of breaking news

on, including further developments in the criminal probe by the department of justice investigating and subpoenaing people who were involved with these phony slates. so very interested to see the focus on house gop lawmakers especially as several of them are up for re-election right now. >> jackie all over these hearings every day. thanks so much for your reporting. claire, we'll hear some pretty extraordinary stuff today. we got some from "the washington post" but we'll hear it directly from rosen and donoghue and at the end of the hearing it will mark the closing of the first phase and we'll get a break and there will be more in july. you're a former prosecutor. you sat in the united states senate. if you just stop and take a breath, this evidence has been overwhelming and so much has come from donald trump's own people, his own advisers, his own family members. how has this committee done and what's the impact? >> they have done a terrific job. first of all, it's important in this day and age to make the

facts compelling, to build a story around the facts that everyone can understand. and they have done that very, very well. i've said the rest of the committees on capitol hill ought to take notice. this notion that you try to elbow each other for the sound bite of the evening on fox news and/or any other network, they need to kind of give that a rest and realize that every hearing is an opportunity to tell a story to the american people in a really compelling way. you know, they built up a whole mountain of evidence. clearly there is enough evidence, i believe, to indict. but a prosecutor has to think about two things when they indict. they have to think about the quality and quantity of evidence and then they have to think about the burden of proof. and i'm not going to say this isn't a tough call, because, first of all, you can't indict rudy and eastman and not indict

trump. when you indict all three of them, everyone needs to remember one trump supporter on the jury and it's hung. and what does that do to our country if there's a hung jury with this kind of evidence? it's a nullification of the rule of law. so i'm not saying that garland shouldn't indict. i'm not saying there's not enough evidence to indict. but everybody needs to understand it's not as simple as just indicting someone. you have to unanimously convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt. and picking a jury anywhere in america that's going to be unanimous when it comes to donald trump is a tall order. >> all right. the senate is moving full speed ahead on the bipartisan gun bill after passing a first procedural bill this week. lawmakers will vote again to move it forward tomorrow afternoon. this vote is key. if it passes, it survives a potential filibuster. the bill already has enough

support and may even pick up a few additional gop backers that would be really great. texas senator john cornyn, the lead republican negotiator, addressed backlash from his own party, including from former president trump. >> if i listen to all of the critics, i wouldn't get much done. i think those are obviously a very small fringe of the republican primary voters. >> is donald trump fringe? >> well, i just think, you know, i think name calling is not particularly helpful. >> the nra strongly opposing the legislation, do you think that will stay any republican votes? >> i don't know, you'll have to ask them. we worked with the nra, listened to their concerns, but in the end i think they simply -- they have a membership and a business model that will not allow them to support any legislation.

>> michael steele, that right there is very helpful actually the way john cornyn was dealing with not only the backlash from his own constituents but the nra. i know that's very hard for a republican to say. >> it is, but i'm sorry, i'm just -- you know -- >> what? >> no, it is, it is. i mean these guys kill me. >> you've got to take it where you can get it, come on. >> you take it where you can get it, but what are you getting? i mean this bill doesn't mandate, you know, red flag, it says, well, if you want to do a red flag law in your state, you can. >> okay, let me push back a little bit, hold on. >> sure. >> the bill if it goes through is a -- this is a step in the right direction that could open the door to a lot more conversations. >> no, it's not. >> we've had nothing for years? no?

no? no? why? why? >> it's not opening the door to anything. republicans have no incentive to touch this issue again. >> i disagree. michael, do you know how many mass shootings there are every day, every week? one is going to come -- >> how many mass shootings have we had since columbine? >> i know. >> and so don't give me every day when we can look at every year and the number within a year. the number that look place within the two weeks of buffalo. and the only reason this is moving is because republicans don't want to talk about this issue going into the fall. so it's one and done. you get it done, you do what you need to do to get that vote. everybody is making -- oh, we got 14, 15 republicans. okay, that's appreciated, okay. but to your broader point, there is a lot more to do here. >> of course. >> that doesn't come close to scratching the itch the country

has on this issue and what the country wants done. that's all i'm saying. so don't -- you know, let's be realistic and wide-eyed about what we're looking at here and politically what this means. do you really think with mitch mcconnell sitting as the majority leader this year or jim jordan as the speaker of the house in '23 and '24 that republicans are going to put a comprehensive gun reform bill in front of joe biden? so please don't sit here and they think that there's more to come from this. this is one and done. there is no political incentive for these folks to do more. they haven't shown the inclination. >> michael steele, here's the problem. i mean this in all seriousness actually. the one outlying issue here that kind of perhaps competes with what you're saying is that there will be another one and there

will be another one and there will be another one. >> just as there was -- just as there have been before. >> but you don't think these two -- you don't think buffalo and uvalde moved the needle? >> i think it did. i'm not discounting that. i think it did. but i just don't want people to do what the political expectation is of the american people, that this you should be satisfied with. >> i'm not. >> that this is all that can be done. that's what the political class wants you to think. they go look what we did, pat on back, pat on back, shake hands, photo op. and that's it. when there's another shooting, thoughts and prayers, but we've done -- we've done -- and yet again, even what we did, that didn't stop this shooting, so what more can we do? well, we heard this conversation

before. >> so let me jump to -- i hear you, michael. claire mccaskill, i guess what i'm saying is that these republicans -- i agree, they would love to just move on and say one and done. i don't think -- i don't think the reality allows that. >> okay, i think you're both right. first, michael steele is right. mitch mcconnell decided to do something, so he sent his deputy cornyn and said make a deal. make sure you don't touch high-capacity magazines or ar-15s or any of the other weapons that allow dozens of children to be killed in less than a minute. and cornyn made the deal. and he had mcconnell's backing from day one. i said from day one this is all about them taking it off the agenda for the fall. but this is what -- where mika is right. don't be fooled, america. you've got more work to do on this subject. you've got to pay attention to these elections in november. the way you get high-capacity magazines in front of the united

states senate is by electing democratic senators in pennsylvania, in wisconsin, in ohio and north carolina and florida. you do that and then you've got a chance to really do something meaningful with these weapons that are designed just to do one thing, kill as many humans as possible in a short period of time. that's what's going to have to happen. it depends on people letting it go because we got one thing done rather than continuing to push people to do more. >> all right. michael steele, thank you very, very much for being on this morning. always appreciate it. still ahead on "morning joe" we'll talk much more about where the bipartisan gun safety bill stands in congress when we're joined by senator tim kaine. plus, the latest from uvalde, where the school district police chief has been placed on leave after intense scrutiny over the response to last month's school

shooting there. also ahead, we're looking at how the federal gas tax holiday concept might help americans at the pumps. steve rattner is standing by with charts. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. watching "" watching "" we'll be right back.re wisdom... i got some of my gold before i came to this country. i got some of my gold before you passed the bread. encourage one another... i can buy gold for this?! can buy gold for this. and talk about life's wins and misses. responsibly sourced like my gold but not responsibly cooked. because at the end of the day, nothing keeps it all together quite like - gold. visit invest.gold to see how gold is everyone's asset. finding the perfect project manager isn't easy. but, at upwork, we found him. he's in adelaide between his daily lunch delivery and an 8:15 call with san francisco. and you can find him, and millions of other talented pros, right now on upwork.com

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me show you some numbers and put some flesh on the bones. the average american adult uses 1.8 gallons of gas a day. multiply that by 90 days and that's 162 gallons of gas used by the average american. multiply that by the 18.4 cents of federal gas tax gets to $29.80. brian talked about 40 to 50% getting passed through. i would be more generous and i think 80% gets passed through. so what's the bottom line? the bottom line is the average adult american will save $23.85 over a three-month gas holiday. >> three months. >> three months. >> so 18 cents a gallon. >> that's what you end up in your pocket with, $23.85. >> that raises the question, who does benefit from this exactly, oil companies? >> from the gas tax holiday? >> yes. >> well, it's just -- if you look at the next chart you'll see that basically when you get into what constitutes the price of a gallon of gas at the pump,

you'll see that the vast majority of the cost is the crude oil. and the rest of this is important, but not nearly as important as the crude oil. now, the president talked yesterday about refining capacity and the problem of the refiners not refining enough gas. he sent them letters and is having a meeting and jennifer granholm is having a meeting with them. and if you look at that little red circle on the left that profit margins for the refiners have gone up. why have profit margins go up? if you look at the chart on the right, our refining capacity has gone down. five refineries have shut down since the pandemic hit and the rest of those left are running at full capacity. yeah, in that scenario the refiners will make more money. but relative to every other piece of the puzzle, it's not a lot. the president also talked yesterday about invoking the defense production act, but what

are you going to tell them to do? they're producing at 100% virtually. >> that's the other point, right? the president is saying i need your help on this, oil companies. you've got to refine, you've got to pump more. they're going as fast as they can. >> it is exactly fair to say. as much oil as can be pumped in america is coming out of the grounding, as much as can be refined is being refined. this is simply a supply problem. >> let's talk about these big prices and consumption, what high gas price does to people and what impact that has more broadly on the inflation. >> that's the yin and the yang of this. if you have lower gas prices, people drive more and that drives -- creates inflation, drives prices back up. you can see a real world example here. the dotted line at the top is 2019 gas usage, a fairly typical year before the pandemic. i didn't include 2020 because obviously the pandemic was hitting. but then if you look at 2022, which is the darker blue line -- 2021, which is the turquoise

line, you can see that it was recovering, recovering, recovering, almost got to the dotted black line but the line below it, the darker blue line, that's this year. we're actually using less gasoline this year than we did last year, even though we're still recovering from a pandemic, because prices have an effect and discourage consumption. and that's the yin and the yang of this thing. >> claire, obviously the white house wants to be seen as doing everything it can about gas prices and inflation so this may be more symbolic than anything else. what do you make of the concept of the gas tax holiday and the tepid support even from democrats. >> well, i worry that the white house isn't focused as they should be on projecting strength. and whether it is a good idea or bad idea, what is really bad is when a president announces a program and his own party is not fully behind him. so i say there's a political misstep here because it makes the president look weak that -- he's got -- he's already got a

strength. is he exuding enough strength? americans want a strong president. so this is bad for him. it's a little bit like how they try to clean up on aisle 5 when he has a gaffe and say he didn't mean that. they should let him say what he's going to say. i have a very for you, though, steve. why can't those five refineries gear back up again? why can't jennifer granholm today say or the president say no refineries can be shut down right now in america because it would help more than the gas tax holiday? >> sure. the problem is that of the five, one had a fire, one had some kind of explosion. you cannot simply -- these are not things you can turn on like a car. it takes months, it costs tens or hundreds of millions of dollars. by the way, this is a little bit of the schizophrenia. we've been discouraging oil companies from maintaining refineries or opening new ones because we theoretically are going to transition away from

gasoline. but we again made a misjudgment as to how long of a transition it was going to be and what we needed to do to make the transition work. >> to claire's point on political weakness or the appearance thereof, the president on voting rights and build back better, this just adds to that. steve, you just walked through what little impact this will have if it indeed even comes to be, so what does change this? what eventually will lead to gas prices going back down? >> before i do that, fun fact for today when we talk about democratic leaders being opposed to this. in 2008, barack obama called it a gimmick when it was proposed during his campaign by his opponent. unfortunately, we're just in a tough place. we had this explosion in demand due to the pandemic. people are out there, they're buying things, it's created inflation. the only way to reduce inflation is to reduce demand, usage, whatever you want to call it. and so jay powell testified yesterday, the chairman of the federal reserve, that a

recession is not impossible. i think most of us think a recession is somewhere between likely and inevitable, and that's unfortunately what it's going to take to bring down inflation and all these price increases is simply in the short run less demand, which creates more supply. but you can't simply turn these things back on and drill a well and have it come online in 30 days. >> we'll see if this gas tax holiday even comes to pass. that's still an open question. steve rattner with his world famous charts. steve, great to see you as always. thanks. coming up, while florida governor ron desantis emerges as a top contender for the republican nomination for president in 2024, his democratic opponent for the race for governor in 2018 was just hit with a 21-count federal indictment. our legal panel breaks down the allegations against former tallahassee mayor, andrew gillum. that's next on "morning joe." gillum that's next on "morning joe.

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welcome back to "morning joe." a beautiful look at washington, d.c. 41 past the hour. federal prosecutors have arrested and charged former tallahassee mayor and 2018 democrat gubernatorial candidate, andrew gillum, with conspiracy, wire fraud, and making false statements. according to the indictment unsealed yesterday, gillum and his political advisor allegedly solicited hundreds of thousands of dollars in campaign funds and diverted some for personal use. while both have been charged with 19 counts of wire fraud, only gillum has been charged with making false statements to the fbi. the defendants face a maximum of 20 years in prison for charges of conspiracy to commit wire

fraud. back in 2018, gillum ran for governor, securing the democratic nomination, but narrowly lost to republican ron desantis. gillum has denied any wrongdoing and put out a pretty strong statement writing in part, quote, i've spent the last 20 years of my life in public service and continue to fight for the people. every campaign i've run has been done with integrity. make no mistake that this case is not legal, it is political. for more on these charges, let's bring in msnbc legal analyst charles coleman and state attorney general for palm beach county florida, dave aronberg. this involved gillum's actions between 2016 and 2019. what are they alleging he exactly did and what do you make of his statement saying this is political? >> good morning, mika. this stems from an investigation that started actually back in 2015 into the activities in

tallahassee city hall. so the fbi interviewed andrew gillum back in 2017 and he went there voluntarily and said that he received no benefits from these businessmen who just came to town mysteriously. it turns out they were undercover fbi agents and they did, according to the indictment, give him a free trip to new york among other things. so that's part of the lie that they're accusing him of. plus he said he cut off talks with these businessmen after they made inappropriate requests in return for campaign contributions. the fbi saying, no, that is a lie. so that's the count of lying to the fbi. then you have the 20 counts involving wire fraud, 19 counts of wire fraud, one involving conspiracy to commit wire fraud. you set it out right. this is about a no-show job that was allegedly created by a co-conspirator to funnel campaign funds and grants back into andrew gillum's pockets. >> so this seems to be also this

use of campaign money for personal use. at this point it just seems like why do people keep putting their hand on the hot stove, but what are the allegations here? >> yeah. there is -- the allegations are that he pocketed money that was meant for the campaign, that was meant for get out the vote efforts. come it comes to campaign finance rules, they're pretty vague. he's not being charged under campaign finance statutes, he's being charged under wire fraud. that is the most popular crime for federal prosecutors. it's easy to prove, it's tough to defend and can get you up to 20 years per counting. according to sentencing guidelines, he's really facing up to five years in prison and less if he takes a plea. as far as what you mentioned earlier about this whole thing being politically motivated, i tell you, unless you're trying to tell me that merrick garland is targeting andrew because he's a democrat, i don't buy it. florida democrats that i've spoken to, they're just disappointed and frustrated by

this whole thing. andrew was a whisker away from becoming governor and made some bad decisions personally and politically that allowed ron desantis to squeak by with 33,000 votes out of a total of 8 million votes. just imagine the alternate political universe had andrew been able to make the right decisions and win in the end. i mean ron desantis wouldn't be presidential candidate ron desantis and traditionally purple florida wouldn't have become a maga petrie dish. >> andrew gillum was leading in the closing stretch and lost by a handful of votes. charles, this is a pretty serious indictment, 21 counts, a federal indictment. what do you see in here and what do you exactly -- how bad could this be for gillum in terms of jail time? >> make no mistake about it, this is an ugly situation and it does not look good for andrew gillum. when you're talking about federal prosecutors, what we know is that usually where there's smoke, there's fire. there was a statement put out by gillum's attorneys where they said the federal government got it wrong. i know that that's what lawyers are supposed to say when they're

defending their client, but the likelihood that that's true is probably very low. now here's the thing, though. i want people to consider this is not the story. andrew gillum is joe blow citizen. he's a private citizen at this point. granted, these were things that took place when he was in the public eye. but at the same time, the real story here from the department of justice is there are some striking parallels to what we've seen in terms of this indictment and what has been alleged around the wire fraud in essentially misuse of funds that could very well mirror what we're learning from the january 6 hearing committee with respect to the grifting that took place around some of the money that was generated and raised around the big lie. if you look at what took place around the protect the election initiative, that money that never got used and things of that nature, it seems to put a little bit of writing on the wall. if you're reading the tea leaves a little ambitiously or liberally, it certainly suggests that merrick garland and the doj

are willing and interested in taking these sorts of cases further. so for those people who are looking to see what are the larger implications that may exist here, they may be able to point to this indictment as to giving them some sort of clues. >> i would like to jump in here for both dave and charles and i'll go to you first, charles. as folks who have been state prosecutors, will someone explain to me why this takes so long? what are those people doing? i mean this is ridiculous that this conduct was years ago, and then speaking of parallels, we've got the same problem now. the justice department is just dropping subpoenas over a scheme to put fraudulent electors in charge on january 6th? it is outrageous to me that more people aren't angry at the incredible slow pace of highly paid in the grand scheme of things in the criminal justice system, you and i both know and i know dave knows, federal prosecutors are paid multiples of state prosecutors.

fbi agents are paid multiples of local detectives who have to respond to 911 calls and get cases through the system. why can't we have some kind of acknowledgement that our federal justice system is broken in terms of a snail's pace? >> well, i think you're absolutely right when you talk about the brokenness of the system. that's something that needs to be addressed. what they will say, what prosecutors are usually going to say, as you know, is of course there's the time that it takes to get the search warrants, to get the permission to do the surveillance, but that in and of itself should not cause the delay that we usually see. what you're talking about is more endemic of in a lot of cases greedy prosecutors because they want to see how deep the rat hole can go. they want to make sure that the case is air tight, all the is are dotted and ts are crossed. i don't think with the enormous amount of resources available to them at at their disposal it should take as long as it does. overall you're correct, the justice system is broken. unequivocally so.

and it does need to be re-examined and reimagined in so many different ways. >> this investigation started seven years ago in tallahassee in 2015. >> yes. willie, this shows that the wheels of justice can move very slowly, especially in the federal system. i think what happened here is v especially in the federal system. i think what happened here is the feds had him on one count of lying to the fbi in 2017, but that scores at most a year in prison or even just probation. so they kept digging. and then they found the evidence allegedly of wire fraud after the election of 2018. and so i think that that is what takes so long, but it really is frustrating. and for those on the far right who is cheering all of this, keep in mind that this indictment serves as a warning to matt gaetz. he has been under federal investigation for two years thousand without any charges. and people around him are thinking that he is in the clear. but as we've learned from this indictment, sometimes the light

at the end of the tunnel is and on comecoming train. >> boy. all right, thank you both very much for your insight this morning. still ahead, gen z has grown up in an era of school violence, but gun legislation is not their only foe with us. focus. we'll have a look at what they care about. and at the top of the hour, we'll go live to capitol hill for a preview of the january 6 hearing which will focus on donald trump's pressure campaign on the department of justice to go along with his big lie. as we go to break, heroic moment in the pool last night at the world championships in budapest. american swimmer anita alvarez lost consciousness while competing in the finals of the women's solo free event and sank

to the bottom before being rescued by her coach who dove into save her. she says that she jumped into action after lifeguards hesitated. alvarez fainted in the pool at an olympic qualifying event in barcelona last year with her coach again coming to her aid. she is reportedly recovering well after yesterday's incident. we'll be right back. we'll be right back.! so we're giving every business, our best deals on every iphone - including the iphone 13 pro with 5g. that's the one with the amazing camera? yep! every business deserves it... like one's that re-opened! hi, we have an appointment. and every new business that just opened! like aromatherapy rugs! i'll take one in blue please! it's not complicated. at&t is giving new and existing business customers our best deals on every iphone. ♪ ♪

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nowhere, nowhere in the constitution is unrestricted access to weapons of war a guaranteed right. we've seen, we've seen the damage that ar-15s do. that should fill us with rage.

and demands for change. not, not endless debate but demands for change! now! now! >> that is gun safety activist and parkland shooting survivor david hogg speaking earlier at a march for our lives event in washington. stopping gun violence has proved to be one of the most important issues to hogg of course but also to many other members of gen z, a new study though shows it is far from the only issue on that generation's mind. hear to break it down for us, from the institute of politics at harvard university, and also author of the book "fight how gen z is channeling their fear and passion to save america." so good to see you. let's start with who we're talking about, would this new poll looks at. >> this is largest gen z poll i've ever conducted. we spoke not just to adults but gen z, young people between 15

and 25 years old. we conducted nearly 4,000 interviews over the last several weeks and we compared this generation with every other generation that came before them. that is what we're talking about. 70 million, the most educated, most diverse group we've seen. >> and starting at 15 years old for this study. so 82% believe shopping school shootings is the most important, protecting access to clean air and water, 72%, quality education, 71%, preserving individual rights and freedoms, 67%. kind of runs the gamut there. >> it does. but these are not the issues necessarily that we see elected officials talking about, that we see running political campaigns talking about. this is a generation that frankly is depressed, we talked a lot about the mental health challenges. half suffering from mental health challenges because they are oppressed. there is this concern about losing basic individual rights

and freedoms to be safe in school, to lose access to clean air and clean water, to have every child have a quality education, accessible education. those are the top four issues. when i write memos to political leaders and ceos, et cetera, asking about gen z, they say why didn't you include legalizing marijuana. we had a list of 26 different issues. that came last. there were four or five key issues that are not being addressed that young people are asking to be part of finding the solutions for. >> and 82% number on stopping school shootings gets at the broader support of the fun for changing the way that we look at guns, the way guns are legislated. and we're seeing some legislation coming out right now of the house and into the senate we think that kind of gets around the edges of that, but not at the core of what i assume gen z is worried about in schools. >> well, it is certainly a step. and i think that that is the lesson we learned frankly from the 2018 and 2020 campaigns that

they are willing to compromise as long as it doesn't mean compromising their values. we saw that school shootings and gun violence was a key driver to political participation in 2018. we saw that bernie sanders and others were the first choice in the democratic primary 2020, but they voted record numbers for joe biden. and i suspect that they are not going to be quite satisfied, but the only way i think that they appreciate to seek more significant change is to continue to engage on the local level as we saw with 400 rallies just a few weeks ago, but also at the federal level as we in the midterm elections. >> joe. >> yeah, so let's talk about the environment. i noticed that whether you are talking about climate change, whether you are talking about just about any environmental issue, i'm struck by how often not only my kids but some of the other kids regardless of ideology seem focused on the environment.

you know, we saw -- we've seen for years democratics talks about the importance of the environment, we've seen for years americans placing it sometimes near the bottom of their priorities. and i'm wondering if what i'm hearing anecdotally is something that you are picking up in your polling. of course kids want access to clean air and clean water. i think most people would agree with that. gen zers agree with that, i would guess boomers would agree with that. but what are the specifics on the environment? do trend lines show quantitatively a dramatic move towards younger americans being focused on climate change and being focused on the environment in a way that their parents and grandparents just haven't been? >> yes, joe, so a couple points. number one, this survey -- i do a lot of work at the harvard institute of politics and this survey is not a harvard-related project, this is a private survey we conducted with groups concerned about the future of

education. however, when i look at the harvard data, i've been tracking for 15, 18 years, a series of questions, one of which is about solving climate change. and every year as the american electorate becomes younger, we see an increasing level of younger people believing that significant government action is required to attack and solve climate change even at the expense of economic growth. that is the way we've been asking the question and every single year we see a growing level of support both among democrats, but also among republicans across the generation. >> i do think that that is -- it is going to be a growing trend regardless of party affiliation. one final thing, fascinating polls that i've seen coming out the last day or two, just as a pollster i want your opinion on it, we see bad news about joe biden every day, that joe biden is failing in this way, joe

biden is failing in that way, lowest approval ratings here. i mean, you've seen it. it is constant. joe biden falls off his bike, breaking news at 11:00. you know, global inflation, all joe biden's fault. and yet there is a poll that comes out in new hampshire which is i think you'd agree with me and most people in politics understand that it is one of the most important swing states in america, primaries especially, joe biden is ahead of donald trump by 7 points. 50% to 43%. it is just -- i just -- it is -- it is absolutely fascinating and i'm just wondering if every day the news media is reporting on false positives about joe biden who is obviously having problems because of inflation, obviously having problems because of the economy. but you match him up against donald trump, and he beats him

comfortably in an important political state. >> that's right. and i think that there is a growing discontent between the approval rating numbers and what we see in generic ballots and match-ups against donald trump. still at this stage december despite the fact that president biden's approval is in the low 40s, the generic ballot within just a handful of points for republicans, it is not great for democrats. but it is not necessarily as correlated as i think that the presidential approval ratings have been over past cycles. and i think president biden talks about don't care me to the all mighty, compare me to the competition and i think that that is what you are seeing. >> the poll you did on generation z should be a flashing red light on mental health. these kids are strug thing and i

don't think we talk about it enough that we've abandoned mental health as a basic health care need. and with the addiction problems and the depression problem, maybe some of the mental health stuff in this bill that will help, but i think that as we say good-bye to you this morning, i think that it is important to emphasize that the mental health issue by far was the biggest takeaway from this poll. >> it has been for two years now. we need as many resources as possibly that we can find and local schools and colleges as well as throughout the community, absolutely. >> director of polling at the institute of politics at harvard university, thank you very much, john. >> and mika, i just want to underline what claire said about this poll. we feel -- i don't think how you all feel watching us, we feel like that you are a member of our family. when you come up to us, when you email us, really we really come feel like you are family. so i hope that you don't mind if i just say one really brief

thing. a point of personal privilege following up what claire just said. if you have a child in your household, if you have a young adult, if you have a gen z member, just talk to them about mental health. jamie raskin talks about how he regrets not talking to his son. i've heard it from so many other parents. children -- you know, parents whose children express their challenges, they are blessed, there are a lot of kids who suffer in silence. so just talk to your kids. >> yeah, and jamie raskin actually to make it more -- he says that he regrets nos talking not talking about suicide and not talking about specific issues of mental health.

and they were very concerned at times and spoke to their son as much as they could, but it was hard. they are hard issues. and you can get help on how to talk about these issues. but it is important to actually have the conversation. because we have an epidemic of mental health problems. >> right. >> in our country. and, boy, has that been exacerbated, brought out and heightened and highlighted by covid. >> and you know, we talk a great deal about the impact of social media, of instagram, on young women, on young girls, depression. boys though suffer in silence too often. and sometimes we overlook the challenges that boys are going through. so, again, if you don't mind us taking this brief moment, but what claire said was so important. what this poll shows that 50% of people from 15 to 25 are

suffering from depression. it really helps to talk, to talk to your children, to talk to your loved ones. and get it out there. >> so in just a few moments, we'll be joined by the new u.s. ambassador to ukraine, bridget brink. >> and also the u.s. ambassador to poland. i don't know if you know him, mark brzezinski. >> i know him. >> we'll talk about the war in ukraine ahead of president biden's trip to europe for the g7 and nato summits. and plus an oval office meeting just days before the capitol attack will take center stage at the fifth hearing of the january 6th committee. we'll hear from former justice department officials who threatened to resign if donald trump went through with a plan to replace the acting attorney general at the time with a political appointee who was willing to back up the big lie. >> and of course, mika, the money line here from richard

donoghue, when there is an oil spill, we'll give you a call. >> yeah, really incredible story. it will be a scene in the movie, that is for sure. joining us now, senior capitol hill correspondent garrett haake with more on what we can expect today. >> reporter: good morning, yeah, that specific meeting you described will no doubt be a significant part of today's testimony. but really this hearing today will take a broader focus on all the efforts that were put in place by the trump white house, by at least one republican congressman to get the doj involved in this plot. and i think what we'll see that will link today's hearing with the one we saw on tuesday is donald trump and his allies trying to use other institutions' credibility to back up their claims of fraud. they knew they themselves lacked the credit and to make the kind of claims that they needed to shore up this january 6 plan. and just like on tuesday where we heard how they lean order

rusty bowers trying to get the arizona house to have a hearing, today we'll hear about how they leaned on the department of justice to try to either have an investigation or just say that they were having an investigation to do the same thing. now, yesterday i had a chance to interview adam kinzinger, the republican on the committee who will be leading the hearing. and here is how he described that effort that we'll see play out today. fair to say the president was trying to like use the doj's credibility against the election results? >> i think that that is very fair to say. i think it is fair to say that the president really wanted the stamp of doubt that comes with a doj seal. like the doj doubts that the election was secure. or, you know, there may be something to these conspiracy theories. and that would give people then permission to vote against certification. >> reporter: so remember these hearings are taking place kind of out of order. this one was supposed to happen a week ago, it had been moved. but the thematic through-line

here of do whatever you can from the trump perspective here to cast doubt on these election results, all of that would have been part of the prern campaign on pence to throw the election results out on january 6. we'll see yet another thread in that plot come together today. >> and what we're really talking about here and we discussed it last week when the "washington post" came out with its reporting on this extraordinary oval office meeting, clark trying to get donald trump basically to help him stage a coup, take over to become acting attorney general. so we'll hear that from their mouths rather than from media reporting today. it should be extraordinary. and as you point out at the end of today, long break for this committee into july now, almost a month up we hear from that group again. how does it feel? you talk to these committee member, you talk to members of congress, what is the feeling up there about how they have done thus far. >> reporter: they are pretty satisfied with how this has gone

so far. they have been able to control the news cycle around this. they see the increased social media comments from donald trump about his frustration with how this committee was handled from the get-go as a sign that he is paying attention, he has been forced to respond to it. that only increases the spotlight that they are in right now. i do think that this break poses a potential challenge. i mean, you have some political momentum here behind the work that they are doing. the committee members i've talked to say that they are getting significant new evidence, getting things that either buttress arguments that they were already making or potentially add new threads to the kind hearing structure that they already have. i think that this break could be a challenge for them to keep up that same drum beat that they have put together. but so far they are quite satisfied with the presentation that they have been able to make to the american people. >> all right. garrett haake, thank you so much. greatly appreciate it. president biden leaves on saturday to germany for meeting of the g7 followed by the nato

summit in spain. one of the goals will be to keep allies committed to supporting ukrainians through what could be a months' long war. with us now, u.s. ambassador to poland, mark brzezinski, and also u.s. ambassador to ukraine bridget brink. thank you so much. ambassador brink, so great to have you here with us. i'm curious how are things going right now with you getting set up again in ukraine and more to the point, we've been discussing whether the europeans are staying focused on this, whether the eu is staying focused on this, germany and france specifically. what is your opinion on how our allies are doing in the fight against putin? >> well, thanks so much, joe, for having me and, mika, i really appreciate it. maybe i just could talk a second about the fight. after successfully pushing

russia away from kyiv, the fight is now very focused in the east in the area called donbas and it is a really tough fight, street by kilometer by kilometer. so while tremendous euphoria inw coming down to a difficult fight. and i'm back here in washington to have senior level consultations and reinforce secretary austin and his push with members of the contact group, 40 countries working together to provide security assistance to push even harder and to move even faster to move assistance to ukraine. the europeans are standing with us, it is really important that we stay together on the assistance, on the security assistance, on the humanitarian assistance, on the economic assistance and also on the sanctions. and so far we have a very, very strong alliance and i'm really proud of that and i'm working also to keep it together.

>> president zelenskyy has suggested that germany and france in particular are talking more than delivering military items. what can you tell us? >> i think we're all working to -- i mean, we're here -- i'm in kyiv now with high small embassy team and we're working toprvent wider war, but doing that by helping the ukrainians need when the time comes from a position of strength. so our goal is to help ukraine defend itself and is that the goal that we share with our friends, partners an allies and that is what we'll keep doing until the time comes when negotiations will be possible. >> president zelenskyy has obviously been very direct on what he needs, what his country needs, what his military needs from the west. there has been criticism of several governments. i'm curious, what does his government tell you the ukrainians need from the united

states and the eu and nato? >> first thing that i hear from president zelenskyy but also from every other ukrainian in government and outside of government on the street is thank you. thank you to the united states and thank you to everybody who has helped them achieve the success that they have achieved so far. and it is also due to their incredible courage and bravery in this fight. so of course they are talking to us specifically about what they need and we are talking regularly, more than daily, basically i'd say hourly with me, with other members of our government, and to what we are doing is to try to make sure we're giving them what they need to succeed in this fight and to defend themselves. >> ambassador brzezinski, mark, russia's invasion of ukraine is leading to dramatic shift in opinions about moscow in neighboring poland, new pew

research center poll released yesterday found that 94% of poles see russia as a major threat while an equal percent of people say that they have no confidence at all in vladimir putin. the study also found a majority of poles have a favorable opinion of united states and 60% say that they have confident in president biden. it really is remarkable, mark, what has happened in poland over the past several years. united states policymakers had issues with poland. poles had issues with the united states. but in this same pew poll, it shows that 90% of poles, about 90% of poles have a positive impression of the united states. that is really nothing short of extraordinary. and i talked about germany and france. it seems the united states and

poland are the two countries who are stepping up and in front of the line to help the ukrainians. >> joe, thank you for having me this morning. i'm so pleased to join my colleague ambassador bridget brink who is in kyiv. i think that is fantastic leadership that she started day one in kyiv. joe, you're right, the united states and poland are delivering for the ukrainians like none over and that is not just talk. in terms of the value of the munitions, in terms of the valve the lethal and nonlethal aid, it is the poles and the americans who have really stepped up. but what is amazing to see, joe, is how this crisis has led to a big public approval uptick in all of poland for an embrace of the relationship with the united states and of an embrace of president biden's leadership. last time that pew public opinion poll was taken, there

was about 50% public approval rating in poland for the relationship with the united states and now it is 90% and even more amazing, poland has taken in more than 4 million ukrainian refugees. the pew public opinion poll shows that polish public opinion in support of taking in even more refugees is increasing and is well over 80%. so as they have taken in and put into polish homes and apartments, millions of ukrainians, the public support for taking in more refugees is increasing. an incredible story and i think that it really reflects confidence in what president biden is doing in developing consensus among allies in support of zelenskyy and the ukrainian fighters. >> and i've talked about it on the show before, my daughter was able to spend the last month in

poland looking at what the poles were doing as far as humanitarian relief, looking at how they were taking ukrainians into their homes and also saying that wherever she went, she saw the united states, the hand of the united states, support of the united states. and helping those ukrainian refugees along with the poles. said that it was really awe-inspiring. and it is, it is remarkable what the polish people have done during this crisis. >> and we've talked about it, ambassador. it is great to see you. through all the darkness we've seen in ukraine, the light that the people of poland have shed is extraordinary for the world to see. you talk about 4 million refugees. the poles opening their homes and apartments to complete strangers. what has it been like for poland to absorb that many people and potentially many more here in terms of schools and jobs and everything else that comes with that? because it is more than just opening the door to your

apartment. you are absorbing all those people in your society. how is that going? >> sure. well, willie, never in the future will there be a mass movement of refugees from one country that does not thousand in- now invoke the help of poland. never before has there been a national leadership that every single arriving refugee will be placed in someone's home or apartment. imagine in our private said we have 5 million people from guatemala coming across the texas border and we have the placement of every one of those refugees in to someone's home. it would be a big difference in approach that has been taken and that is what the poles have done every arriving ukrainian refugee is given every right the polish

citizen has except the right to vote. so they are given the social security number, the right to send children to schools, the right to pursue work. and in the hundreds of thousands of new jobs that have been created in poland in the tech sectors, also in the home care sectors, in industrial sector for jobs for ukrainians. so it is working. but there are logistical logjams coming down the pike. the four largest cities in poland are at capacity. and as the government tries to direct some of the newly arriving refugees to the countryside, the refugees don't want to go to the countryside, they want to go to the cities. so there are some logistical tensions. and we'll see on the first day of school september 1 in poland how -- whether we can have all the ukrainian students, ukrainian children, in poland sitting in classrooms. that is the goal. but there is a national inspired

effort to do that. >> extraordinary and historic. ambassador brink, back to your side of the border where you are doing your work, i'm curious how you are looking at this war in terms of a time horizon. i mean, the support of the world is still there. other news and life intervene and it goes into the back ground a bit. but the war persists. vladimir putin persists in the east. how do you see this ending? is there some kind of a negotiation, can there be a negotiation with someone like vladimir putin who has earned no trust whatsoever from ukrainians or anyone else for that matter? where and how does this end ultimately? >> i just want to reemforce what ambassador brzezinski said as well. there are 7 million idps in ukraine and 5 million outside of ukraine. and 3 million which poland hosts. so this is an enormous crisis and many dimensions. and i can't have a better partner with ambassador

brzezinski in the next door country, so i really appreciate him and everything that he is doing and everything that the poles are doing. to your question about how does it end, we support a sovereign independent prosperous and democratic ukraine. we have said that we support president zelenskyy and his government. so when and how he decides to negotiate the end of the war, all wars do he said in negotiation eventually, and what we are doing now is providing all of the security assistance that we are able to together with friends and partners to give the ukrainians the best hand at the gosh negotiating ta. >> and ambassador brink, shifting back to the president heading overseas on saturday, one major topic of discussion of course we know will be energy prices. but they will talk about food as well, the fact that there could be food shortages around the world because of what russia is doing in ukraine. give us an update on the ground there, what is being done in

ukraine to try to circumvent the russia blockade and get the food out. >> this is another part of the crisis. putin has weaponized food. there are 20 tons stuck in ports that are unable to get to market. another 20 to 25 tons of grain that will come to those ports very soon at the end of the harvest season. so it is causing and exacerbating the food crisis around the world. so i think what i would just say is that as president biden has said, russia's brutal war on ukraine is not only morally outrageous and we didn't have a chance to talk a little bit about the atrocities and war crimes that are happening there at a scale that is extraordinarily disconcerting and reminiscent of world war ii, but also ensuring peace is a vital interest of the united

states. so i am there, ambassador bra zinke is on the frontline state. and we're all here with president biden's support, with bipartisan congressional support and thankfully with the support of the american people to try to make sure that president putin cannot change borders by force in the 21st century in europe. >> ambassador brink, you brought it up, so before we go to break, tell us about the war crimes that you've heard about from ukrainians, the evidence you've seen. >> yeah, it is absolutely chilling. i've had a chance since i've been in country to go to some of the cities outside of ukraine where war crimes have taken place and atrocities have taken place. and what is most chilling to me is that there are mass graves that have been uncovered that are filled with people in civilian clothes with their hands tied behind their backs, with what appear to be bullet

holes in their heads. this is men, women and children in what appears to be a clear attempt to terrorize civilians. what is most horrifying and disconcerting is that this appears to be systemic. so we don't know what has happened in places like mariupol on the azoff sea occupied by russia, a town of over 400,000 people which reportedly just has a few thousand left. i'm very concerned about when -- what happens in terms of what we see in the future as to what happens in mariupol and these other places that are now russian occupied. >> and i think that it is important that the attorney general merrick garland just visited ukraine to put in place a process to hunt down who has

committed war crimes and gather evidence. that will not be let go and we live in an i think when we can forensically investigate crimes because of cellphones and video footage and so farther. this will not be let go, the u.s. will chase this down. >> ambassador brink, thank you so much for being with us from kyiv. and thank you for your service to our country. ambassador mark brzezinski, thank you so much for being with us. greatly appreciate it. still ahead, democrats are calling the bipartisan safety gun bill a first step to combat gun violence. we'll have senator tim kaine with us in our fourth hour to weigh in on that. but first, one of our next guests asks the question is it possible to disagree politically and still love unconditionally. he'll have that answer ahead. ily ily he'll have that answer ahead

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in a speech at the white house yesterday, the president urged congress to pass a three month gas tax holiday. the move would suspend the federal tax on gas which is about 18 cents a gallon. it would also temporarily suspend the tax on diesel fuel at 24 cents a gallon. >> i fully understand that gas tax holiday alone is not going to fix the problem. but it will provide families some immediate relief, just a little bit of breathing room as we continue working to bring down prices for the long haul. >> president biden is also asking states to suspend their own gas taxes which he says could bring prices down as much as a dollar per gallon. that would make a difference. but many economists and

lawmakers from both parties view the idea with skepticism and suggest that it won't do much to help consumers. house speaker nancy pelosi was noncommittal on it. and mitch mcconnell quickly dismissed the idea calling it, quote, a silly proposal. >> but he wants to cut taxes on -- >> how could that be silly? >> -- on fuel prices when people are suffering. why is it a silly idea? can the government not take enough of americans' money? serious. joe biden wants to give money back at the pump when they are suffering? why does mitch mcconnell think it is silly to help working class miles an hours because this proposal actually would help working class americans the most. it would help middle class americans the most. >> question. what have republicans offered, what are their ideas? i'd love to know.

you know what would be great, maybe they have better ideas but they don't have any. >> no, no, no, tommy that is their idea. let's bring in brian sullivan. hopefully he haven't seen peaky blinders so he doesn't know how bad of an imnation that was. >> the white bread and the brown bread, joe. what kind of bread do you want? >> being on, he knows. he knows. and that was even worse. >> sorry. >> that is okay. so i'm curious, we've got a guy from alabama, guy from virginia tech, trying to do the alfie accents. we really should wait until the 11:00 p.m. hour. so brian, i like the idea of a gas tax holiday right now when people are hurting. my only problem is, i don't know that it actually will get passed on to consumers because maybe

people running the gas stations will saybeing okay, we'll just keep the money ourselves. what say you? >> well, it is entirely possible and also not just me. university of pennsylvania, wharton school of business back in april did a study about this and said that we could have as little as 40% that is passed through. if you do the basic mass, 18 cents a gallon, let's say 40% is passed through, average american uses 50 gallons a month, you are looking at a household savings of about $4 a month. maybe 5 to 10 bucks a month. i mean, i'm not saying that that doesn't matter at all, but that is very small money in comparison to how everything else is going. i think the diesel side, 24 cents a gallon, not only is more relevant, bigger, but also diesel is far more important in the inflationary aspects to the

supply chain to everything. truck, rail, giant ships. so maybe if you bring that off that we're seeing some logistics, supply chains, transportation costs, come down. >> and brian sullivan, thank you very much. and coming up, there is a new subpoena in the works on capitol hill, but it is not related to the january 6 insurrection. instead, it is focused on the nfl and allegations of a toxic workplace culture at one the league's top teams. we'll explain that next. ain tha. only from discover. there's a monster problem and our hero needs solutions. so she starts a miro to brainstorm. “shoot it?” suggests the scientists. so they shoot it. hmm... back to the miro board.

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welcome back. there are new revelations from congress about a football team facing allegations of a tox i go culture and sexual harassment of female employees going back years. gabe guttierez reports. >> the workplace in washington was unprofessional and

unacceptable in numerous respects. >> reporter: nfl commissioner roger goodell on defense facing a grilling by congress over his handling of reports of ram pant misconduct at one team. the washington commanders. testifying completely, goodell acknowledged the team's culture was tossic for far too long. >> bullying, widespread disrespect toward colleagues, public embarrassment and harassment. >> reporter: and some of the language replayed by the committee. here a former team broadcaster. >> i do think that our intern is looking better every day. >> reporter: goodell said that he'd taken steps to change the you will chur imposing a $10 million fine and saying that the man at the center of the allegations owner dan snyder was no longer involved in day to day operations. just before the hearing the committee released a report that found snyder orchestrated a shadow investigation with the intent of discredited accusers and journalist who reported on them. snyder himself out of the

country on what his lawyer said was a business trip. his spokesperson telling nbc news that the committee's investigation was predetermined from the beginning. and politically charged show trial. but a lawyer representing 40 of the team's former employees said the report's findings were egregious. >> for goodell to appear today and say that the culture is fine, things are better, and we have sanctioned dan sthi der enough is an insult to every single woman who came forward and risked their lives, their career. >> reporter: and a former washington football cheerleader and employee said she and many others still live with the trauma. >> watching snyder get full ownership during the investigation was a gut punch. watching this silly fine and slap on the wrist passed down last year was a gut punch. >> reporter: scars she says won't heal without a true systemic reckoning. >> gabe guttierez reporting. coming up, one of our next guests helped to untangle the web of text messages at the

center of the house probe of the january 6 attack on the capitol. former congressman denver riggleman will join us straight ahead. straight straight ahead. if your moderate to severe crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms are stopping you in your tracks... choose stelara® from the start... and move toward relief after the first dose... with injections every two months. stelara® may increase your risk of infections, some serious, and cancer. before treatment, get tested for tb. tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, sores, new skin growths, have had cancer, or if you need a vaccine. pres, a rare, potentially fatal brain condition, may be possible. some serious allergic reactions and lung inflammation can occur. feel unstoppable. ask your doctor how lasting remission can start with stelara®. janssen can help you explore cost support options.

from prom dresses to workouts and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have long term consequences. now as you're thinking about all the vaccines your teen might need make sure you ask your doctor if your teen is missing meningitis b vaccination. right now, we're all feelin' the squeeze. we're having to get creative. find a new way. but birthdays still happen. fridays still call for s'mores. you have to make magic, and you're figuring out how to do that. what you don't have to figure out is where to shop. because while you're getting creative, walmart is doing what we always do. keeping prices low for you every day. so you can save money and live better. ♪

under this flag painted roof, religion and politics mix. >> i want trump to come back sooner than later, but do you know who would be a lot better than trump coming back is this jesus coming back. >> reporter: with gusto. >> biden, you trouble israel. leftists, you trouble israel. >> reporter: and this is the patriot church on the outskirts of knoxville, tennessee. >> you unvaccinated people, you are causing the trouble in the land that is what they say.

>> reporter: founded by pastor ken peters. >> this nation was found order predominantly christian values by predominantly christian people. we just want to keep that in play, we want to keep our roots alive and not let the reconstructionist, this tearing up of our nation's roots and a new set of values being pushed on us. >> in october of last year, nbc's anne thompson explored the rise of political pulpits around the country. joining us now, founder and senior pastor at north point ministries, andy stanley, author of the book entitled "not in to win it, why choosing sides sidelines the church ". >> thanks for being with us. i love the book. unfortunately, i related to too much of the book. i grew up first baptist church of pensacola florida. and we talked actually whether

it was the bible drills, bible study, sunday school, we talked about the bible. and i'm not exactly sure what happened to our church. i do know this though, that when i went back to pensacola and went to my mom's funeral, pensa and went to my mom's funeral, i'm standing there in front of her casket and as i'm shaking hands with friends, i friend i've known my entire life comes up and said she prays for my soul every night because i didn't support donald trump. and i said, i will be praying for your soul. but you have similar stories. i'm sorry, what happened when i say our church, i'm not just talking about baptist, i'm talking about evangelical. what happened over the past 30 years. >> well my summation is, i think we have forgot ebb what it means to be christian. we're good at telling people how to become christian. i think we've lost sight of what

it means to be christian. and we take personal grievances and dress it up with jesus and it doesn't serve the church well, it doesn't serve the nation well. so anyway. >> but this is what i don't get, though. where is the grievance from? we're taught from the earliest days that we're saved by grace. it is the greatest story ever told. and it is a greatest story that i actually believe in, thank god for grace because i would be in trouble without it. but with that extraordinary story, why do you have to lean on secular political leaders who are self-interested and self -- where is that grievance coming from when you have got the savior? >> well, this frustration that you're describing and it is

exactly the reason i wrote "not in it to win it" and i sat back and watch podcasters leverage their church platforms to basically align them sfz with political leaders, one in particular and i lean right politically, so i wrote this to evangelical leaders who i feel like gave up their calling. the point that you're making, that as jesus followers, we've been given specific marching orders or i say it everybody has to choose whether or not they want to follow jesus but we don't get to choose what following jesus looks like, sounds like and acts like and most importantly, we don't get to choose what it reacts like. so for some reason it is as if we've forgotten what it means to be christian. so i was going to write an article and it turned into a small book. >> and in the clip we showed going, i understand the

gentleman wanting to have an impact on government. we're americans. we have that right. i'm just wondering, where the focus comes scripturally from the gospels, from the scripture in the bible that the focus is predominantly on politics, on the secular world, and not on things of the spirit. you know, jesus, you don't find jesus in the gospel saying oh, you really need to get -- they say what do we do about taxes? jesus said render under caesar that which is cesar and god that is god's and give them a coin and that is it. it was just jesus -- this is not what we're concerned with. >> yeah. jesus played a long two different -- he stayed in two lanes and one lane he stayed out and one of the lanes that he stayed out of was policy. the two lanes that he spent most of his time in was addressing the heart of human beings because he said all of the problems, all of the stuff that

you're going to deal with in society comes from the heart and in the same time he would minister and extend grace and mercy to the people impacted by the societal ills. so as the church, we need to stay in those two lanes and when we do we make an impact culturally and in society. but when the church and leaders get out of those two lanes and play in the policy lane, things become so murky and what happened, whether we intend to or not, we end up prioritizing our politics over our faith and justifying our politics with our faith and when that happens, game over, we're just another constituency to be wined and dined bribed. ant that is so disheartening over the last couple of years. i felt like i had to say something. >> here is what you write in the book about viewing politics through the lens of faith. quote, political polarization has been a national reality for decades but during 2020, the mesa but often productive middle ground all by disappeared.

as a result, americans were pressured to move further right or further left or to be left behind. lines were drawn, where lines were deemed unnecessary in the past. unfortunately, and to the point of this book, churches, church leaders and prominent pastors took their cues from culture and vacated the middle. to our shame, they added their voices to those of their secular counterparts. not wanting to be left out and certainly not left behind, we entered the partisan fray. what did what everyone else was doing the way they were doing it, we sided publicly with a party and a candidate and defended both regardless. >> and andy, we see this dramatically i don't want to pick on this poor guy. but he testified before congress and said that donald trump undermined the constitution

which was divinely inspired and it would go against everything that he ever believed in. and then they were asked, well, would you vote for him again and he said yeah, would you vote for him again. and that is just -- wait a second. undermines the work of jesus christ on earth. but you'll vote for him again. not picking on him. my friends that i grew up with, my family members, will say the same thing every day. yes, these people are deplorable, we despise what they say and they're hateful human beings, but we're going to vote for them. >> right. and again, the privilege that we have is as citizens is to go to vote. and i tell everybody in our church, never miss an opportunity to vote. you're law of christ and form conscious and you may vote left or right but at the end of the day as christians, the word christ means king or messiah, we are partisans of a king and the moment that we become partisans of a political candidate, we

have abdicated, we've abdicated our christianity. and you know this because of your background, problems are solved in the middle. and the messy middle. where people come together with life experiences and we have those oh moments, when we say he didn't know or understand and i always assumed. we could get things done. but when the church on either side lines up behind a political party, we vacate the middle and then as you know there is no nuance. it is practically impossible to even have a conversation. >> right. and the thing is we're saved by grace. if you read the gospel, it is about grace. it is jesus saying judge not that ye be not judged and blessed are the merciful that they be shown mercy. and how often do we forgive. 70 times 7 times and that is the framework of the gospel and yet you get into politics and it is a zero sum game. go ahead. >> absolutely.

thanks for having me. >> the book is "not in it to win it, why choosing sides side lines the church." andy stanley, thank you. coming up, our next guest was a governor when a gunman killed 32 students and faculty members at virginia tech university back in 2007. now tim kaine served in the senate which is on the cusp of passing the first major gun reform in years. he joins the conversation next. we have a lot still ahead in the fourth hour of "morning joe." we're back in two minutes. r of . r of . we're back in two minutes.ight management aid for adults with a bmi of 25-40 when combined with diet and exercise. plenity is not a drug - it's made from naturally derived building blocks and helps you feel fuller and eat less. it iescription only treatment and is not for pregnant women or people allergic to its ingredients. talk to your doctor or visit myplenity.com to learn more. the minions are coming to ihop.

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welcome back to "morning joe." a live look at reagan national airport. >> it looks kind of grim on the east coast today, mika. >> but it is 6:00 a.m. out west. the day is fresh out there. we have a lot to get to this hour. today at the fifth public hearing the