tonight, on the readout. >> when he finished discussing on what he planned on doing, i said -- excuse me, a-hole, graduations, you taken your first step violating rule six- c. >> gripping testament today about jeffrey clark, fully committed to corrupting the doj on trump's behalf. if not for a handful of sane lawyers, trump might have gotten away with the theft of

the 2020 election. alex holder joined me after his meeting today with the january 6th committee. he has turned over more than 11 hours of footage, but donald trump and his footage before the election. we have an exclusive clip from his trump documentary series. first, the explosive fifth january 6th committee hearing, and trumps explosive plot trying to strong-arm justice department leadership into keeping him in power. attempting to strong-arm officials to legitimize his election lies. namely, jeffrey clark and his attempt to take over the entire justice department to advance a two on the president's behalf. today, we learned more about a january 3rd meeting, where clark made a case to the president, to fire then acting attorney general jeffrey rosen and to appoint him as attorney general. here, in the words of justice department officials, they all threatened to resign if the

scheme went ahead and warned of even worse. >> i said, mr. president, within 24, 48, 72 hours, you will have hundreds of resignations from the leadership of your entire justice department, because of your actions. what is that going to say about you? >> all anyone will think about this, no one is going to read this letter, all anyone is going to think is that you went through two attorneys general in two weeks, until you found the environmental guy to sign this thing. so the story is not going to be, the department of justice has found massive corruption that would change the result of the election, it's going to be the disaster of jeff clark. i think at that point, so pallone said this is a murder suicide pact, this letter. >>. letter was sent to georgia and other states claiming that the justice department had found election irregularities that would affect the results, even though there were none, saying

the legislature could then call a special session and deputy attorney general richard donahue said he rejected it immediately. >> in my response, i explained there were a number of reasons, this is not the department's role, to suggest or dictate to state legislatures how they should select their electors. more important, this was not based on fact. this was contrary to the facts, as developed by the department over the last several weeks and months. so i responded to that, and for the department to insert itself into the political process this way, i think it would have grave consequences for the country. it may very well have spiraled us into a constitutional crisis . >> the committee divulged for the first time the names of members of congress who actively sought or discussed provincial parties related to their efforts surrounding january 6. >> congressman gaetz reached out to me about receiving a presidential pardon.

>> they all did? >> not all of them, but several of them did. >> talked about congressional pardons, but mr. gilbert asked for one as well. >> did he ask you directly? >> yes he did. >> did she contact you? >> no, she didn't contact me about it. >> from mr. sullivan, -- >> i did not frequently connected with him. >> the members participated in a december 21st a strategy session with trump, and several have been sent request for information by the committee. for his part, jeffrey clark, who was home -- whose home was searched wednesday by federal agents pleaded the fifth more than 100 times when questioned by the committee, and added

this when asked about his fake fraud claims letter. >> did you discuss this draft letter, with the president of the united states? >> executive privilege, restated for the abundance of caution. >> i am joined now by martha o'donnell, host on msnbc and my wonderful copilot here for this early reaction to what we heard today. i was struck by the relentlessness of jeffrey clark, coming back and back and trying to get a hold of the department of justice to use it for his ends, but also mr. perry. >> jeffrey clark was the character of the center of this whole story, today. i think the whole plot, the jeffrey clark plot failed, because of jeffrey clark himself, because of who donald trump saw in that room, on january 3rd, when the real people from the justice department showed up, and jeffrey clark had to take his

position in relation to them, and they sat there, personally insulting jeffrey clark to his face. you know, the big tough guy at the desk in the oval office is watching this, and for him, what he is seeing and character terms is, this whip is being banged around this room by these other guys, and by the way, these guys are telling you, after we all quit, after 150 of us walked out the door, on day one, everyone else in the building is going to treat this guy the weight we are treating this guy in this room, and trump is looking at about guy, saying, can he be my guy, to carry out the rest of this plot and he sat there and decided, based on that goofy tv show version of life of his, he is looking at the sky and going this guy can't do it. this guy can't be my apprentice attorney general. >> the thing that is so

striking is this idea of donahue, in his dirty, jeans and t-shirt, he sang no you sit right here, has this sort of chamber of people judging clark in front of him. it really was like the apprentice and he said there was one point donahue says him if you think this guy marching down to chris ray's office at the fbi, that anyone at the fbi will take him seriously, when he is going to take command of 150,000 staff, and suddenly direct the whole ship of state to investigate this bs? after a while trump was like you know what, no. >> on that point, beginning with, does he know how to find it. >> right. does he know how to find the office? >> it was all this very personally insulting thing. in other words, the kind of stuff that trump understands. trump understands the kid in the classroom he was just being dumped on by everyone else. he doesn't want to be around them. >> let me play a clip, visit jeffrey rosen describing, he start by saying, i would not mind being replaced by the guys on my letter my right, not this guy.

there is a clip describing how he is asked to stay on as this inadequate man takes his seat. >> because he thought it would be appropriate, in light of what would happen in, to at least offer me that i could stay on as his deputy. i thought that was preposterous. i told him, that was nonsensical, and that there is no universe where i would do that, stay on and support someone else doing things that were not consistent with what i thought should be done. so, i did not accept that offer . >> it is the disrespect. let's bring in congress and adam schiff of california, member of the house select committee on the general six attack. thank you for being here. let's play another clip for you congressman, this is richard donahue as he is describing how he tried to walk donald trump through, point by point, the ways in which his fraud claims were wrong. took a look. >> we went through a series of

others, a truck driver who claims to have moved an entire truck to trick tractor-trailer of balance are new york and pennsylvania, he wanted to talk a great deal about georgia, the states arena video, which he believes, for various reasons was, as he said it, fraud staring you in the face. >> were any of the allegations he brought up credible? >> no. >> congress in schiff, donald trump's best defense here is that he genuinely believes that he had won the election, and that it had been stolen and there was massive fraud. are you convinced, after listening to mr. donahue, and others, describe how they walked him through it, and how william barth walked into him and every critical credible person told him it wasn't real, are you convinced that donald trump genuinely believed that he had lost the election? >> yes. i think he understood that he had lost the election, and you know, when we see the same pattern today that we saw with

the justice department, you know, with state legislatures, and with others, where they go through these different allegations of fraud, saying there is no there there, that is false, that is false, that is absurd. at the end of the conversation it retreats to saying, just let me say there is fraud and i will take care of the rest. that is basically the message. you could hear for example, on the call with secretary of state from georgia, brad roethlisberger, he goes through all the same drill about this allegation and that allegation. all of them were shot down. at the very end it is like,, fellows. he knows exactly what he is doing but he is trying to browbeat people into doing what he wants. he finds the one guy at the justice department, this environmental lawyer, who apparently has no scruples and will do whatever he needs to do to get that job, and i think as you were pointing out, lawrence, he looks at the rest of the

room and he says okay, i can't do this. i spent almost 6 years in the department. you know, these are serious people, at the department of justice. they were not about to go along with this and thank goodness they didn't. because, if they had stood up, trump would have gone through with this. >> absolutely. lauren, another question. >> mr. chairman, the committee released a list of about half a dozen members of the house, the public and members who requested pardons from the president, from someone in the white house. does the committee believe that is the full list? is it possible that there are people who requested pardons that the committee does not yet know about? >> you know, our instigation continues. we continue to seek new documents and talk with new witnesses. so, i am not sure that we know the complete universe of those involved in any element of the

plot. it is why we would like more of these witnesses to comment. you heard the vice chairs appeal to passive baloney, which was basically like look, have these principle people who are coming in testifying, they're not hiding, you should not hide either pequino, if they do come forth, we will know more. and so, i can't say it's the whole universe, but it's already a pretty big universe in members of congress, i don't know of any situation, and i've been here for years, where you had embers of congress going to the white house, saying, can you keep me in mind for a pardon? that's pretty shocking stuff. >> let me ask you this question. because this comes up a lot, the people that i know that are watching these hearings, are asking this question so i will pass it on to you. for 70 play a gentleman named russ vaughn, a office of budget director, the head of something called the center for a new america. he reacted to the fbi search of

mr. clark's home, saying, i'm just going to read it to you, the new era of criminalizing politics is worsening and the u.s. yesterday more than a dozen doj officials searched jeff clark's house, through him to the street and his pajamas and took his electronic devices because jeff soft fit to investigate voter fraud. this is not america, folks. so, he would not invest getting voter fraud, he was essentially trying to strong-arm states with this letter that was bogus. but, the fact that his house was searched by the fbi, that takes us one step closer to donald trump. everything he was doing, there is no acuity here. everything he was doing was for the president of the united states. if there was a conspiracy to steal the election, it did not originate from jeffrey clark, it logically had to have come from the president of the united states. i will ask you, congressman, in your view, if the department of

justice is going to act on donald trump, must they do so before the election, so that americans are clear about where this coup attempt originated, and landed in the seat of former president donald trump, before the november election? >> first of all, in terms of that claim, attacking the justice department for to getting these issues, jeffrey clark was proposing was not to to get fraud, it was really to perpetrate fraud. he has been told over and over again there is no there there, and you are asking us to find in georgia something that is there that is not. we are not to do that. in terms of what the justice department do and when they should do it vis-@-vis the former president, i agree with judge carter, in california. i think there is already sufficient evidence to investigate the former president role in this. it does not mean they will conclude at the end of the day that they have proven beyond a

reasonable doubt of the crime, but there is certainly enough evidence to instigate, frankly we are a year and a half after these events, that is a longtime. and, i think there is a sense of urgency, independent of the political calendar, the closer you get to the midterms, i think they need to proceed, with a sense of urgency, for all of these matters, irrespective of considerable -- political considerations of the calendar but they should follow the evidence of the attorney general has said he would do, follow the evidence wherever it leads, including if it leads to the former president. no one is above the law. >> i have a quick follow-up, the reason i talk about the calendar is that the congress could change hands after november, and this committee hearing has been pushed back, the date of its conclusion keeps on getting pushed back

because we are getting more information. so the way this committee works it could keep going, and if congress changes hands, there is a possibility of obstruction from some of the people who are asking for pardons, who could then begin to obstruct any progress in this investigation. do you see a deadline as being, the election? >> you know, i don't. first of all, as i am sure you will appreciate we are doing everything we can to make sure the majority of congress is not given to kevin mccarthy, who tried to scuttle this litigation from the start. but more than that, regardless of what happens in congress, the justice department will not change hands, and the justice department can continue to pursue any allegations of criminal activity on the part of the former president. so, i respect that to change with the department. what frightens me about the prospect of public leadership is

he was a part of that plot which ran through the house of representatives. if he should have that presented -- position again and trump would run again and lose again he will return the election in the house. that is why someone like that can never be given that response ability. >> mr. chairman, we saw something fascinating in the white house call logs today, where jeffrey clark was actually referred to, as the acting attorney general, before that meeting in which donald trump was possibly pretending to decide whether he should be acting attorney general. is it conceivable that donald trump had already made the decision, that jeffrey clark is going to be the acting attorney general, and then, when resin asked for this meeting, in that meeting, trump was pretending that this was the decision meeting and in fact what actually happened at that meeting is that trump

reversed the decision he made earlier that same day? >> you know, i think that the testimony, if i remember it correctly is that clark said that derozan that the president was offering mr. clark and this is why resin made a suggestion that resin come on as his deputy. but, those logs are really interesting, lawrence, because obviously the person who created them believed this was already a done deal. so, there has got to be a back story about that, but it certainly seems like this was what the president was going to do, and the threat of mass resignations at the department, all across the country, to stop that plot and thank goodness they did. >> a potential sunday night

massacre by the doj avoided what could have been the complete corruption of that agency. congressman adam ship, appreciate you being here tonight. much more on today's testimony from the three trump officials who stood their ground, vowing to quit if trump went forward with his plot to use the doj to steal the election. plus we have more on public and members of congress and there are several of them who thought they needed pardons. stay with us. stay with us. finding the perfect project manager isn't easy. but, at upwork, we found him. he's in adelaide between his color-coordinated sticky note collection

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the issue wasn't really about me, but, the issue was, the use of the justice department. it is so important that the justice department adhere to the facts and the law. if the justice department gets out of the role it is supposed to play, that is really bad for our country. i don't know a

simpler way to say that. when you damage our fundamental institutions, it's not easy to repair them. >> back with me is my colleague, lawrence o'donnell. joining me now, battery betsy woodruff swan, and matthew miller, former special adviser to the national security council, and former chief spokesman for the justice department. the institution saved the day. there is this sense that the institutions will hold if people of integrity are placed there. i think the concern for a lot of folks is that we are seeing people held, not the current world in which outside the justice department, you now have all the secretary of state candidates, all these legislatures running for office, who have committed themselves to the big lie. can we count on institutionalism to save us? >> what you can generally count on, is lawyers not committing crimes. it's not easy. it's a little extra difficult

to get a lawyer to commit a crime because they kind of understand the dimensions of what you're talking about. they have that law license, they can lose along the way to getting convicted of a crime which seems to be the road giuliani is on now. what you really saw was that lawyers understood where the line was, and they couldn't do it. they could not bring themselves to do it. the danger is, we do know there were plenty of lawyers around trump who did not make it into this space, but all those nuts who were around him outside of government employ, what if he had gotten two or three of them into the justice department, one or two or three years earlier. what if sidney powell was sitting there in the justice department when the decisions were made? >> it is scary to even think about. matt, i will ask you that. at one point, you did have this prospect of sidney powell

becoming a special counsel. that was offered to her, according to her testimony. just from having been inside the doj yourself, what did you make it what you heard today and all the scary prospect that were avoided? >> i think it was the worst assault on the doj's independence in the country's history. worse than anything nixon did during watergate, worse than multiple politicization scandals during the bush administration. i think something so appalling and shocking about it is how relentless trump was. he kept coming back with different ideas. he wants the department to appoint a special counsel and he has an idea of who he ought to use, a complete loon as you mentioned. he wants the department to file a brief in the supreme court. he wants the department to hold a press conference to declare that corruption happened but he kept coming again and again with ideas and claims of fraud that we know are false that he wanted them to investigate. this ultimately only failed, not because trump back down, because he found out it was the

wrong thing to do, but it was located pretty clearly today, he figured out it was going to fail. this letter sent by jeff clark and the attorney general would have been immediately discredited by mass waves of resignation. and i do think, i can point to things all three of them did in their tenure at doj that i can greatly disagree with, but i think compromised to some extent the integrity of the department but they did the right thing when it mattered in this instance and they deserve credit for that? >> that is a good point, allie, this is the same justice department that was actually willing to investigate potential voter fraud during the course of the election, before certification, which is highly unusual. they launched other investigations at trump's behest but this is not a justice department that was perfectly clean going in. >> i am not as huge a fan of the deathbed confession as other people are. there were many opportunities

to do the right thing. doing it right at the very end doesn't really impress me. i think it goes to the point lawrence just made. what i heard today were a bunch of lawyers who knew very well that they did not want to personally go to jail. doing everything they could to keep themselves out of trouble. i did not hear a bunch of lawyers who understood the gravity of the situation and said in real-time to the american people what is happening, remember, if we are thinking now that jeffrey clark is in deep criminal trouble, and he is in deep criminal trouble, that doj prosecutors who started that prosecution with 17 days left. donahue had all the information he needed to know that jeffrey clark was in the process of attempting to commit a crime. he didn't say nothing with 17 days left. no, he kept his head down to keep himself out of jail and keep his people out of jail,

but not do the harder thing. i am not saying it would have been him but i am saying, if you want the metal, then you stand up, in real time that even two months later. >> eric hirschman and richard donahue describing their role as ag. >> jeff clark was proposing, that jeff rosen be replaced by jeff clark. and, i thought the proposal was asinine. >> what were clark's purported bases for why it was in the president's best interest for him to step in. what things changed according to mr. clark in the meeting? >> he repeatedly said to the president that if he was put in

the seat he would conduct real investigations, that would come in his view, uncover widespread fraud. he would send out the letter that he had drafted, and, this was the last opportunity to set things straight with this defective election. and that, he had the intelligence, the will, and the desire to pursue these matters in the way the president felt was most appropriate. >> betsy, is there any evidence on the record that any of these people thought about coming forward in real time? thought about going ahead and doing the resignation, doing something dramatic to alert the american people to this plot ahead of time? >> what we know is that the news about this meeting that happened in the white house leaked out fairly quickly. none of the participants said anything publicly on the record or put their names behind it, as this was happening, the american people were becoming increasingly aware that frankly,

it was not hyperbole to use the word q to describe the effort underway. one thing that is so important to note about this in the context of institutionalism is that jeff clark was not a newcomer to the justice department at that point. what made him such a significant character in all of this was not that he was installed there, but that he was discovered, and he was introduced to the white house, sort of carried in as somebody who, hey, has been around at the justice department, not being famous, not having a profile but then overnight, on a very short timeline, got the attention of the president of the united states. what we know thus far is that congressman scott perry has made an instrumental role in facilitating that, and making that happen, and that is why the increase of information we are gathering regarding testimony

about perry trying to seek a pardon is so important, because it just flushes out the cast of characters here. >> very quickly, i have to ask you this question. in the sweepstakes for who gets flipped, who would be more valuable to flip? >> clark. he is in direct medication with the president and is facing the most serious jeopardy. he had an experience today which moves people closer to flipping. when you are in your pajamas and the fbi is running for your house, you really start focusing on your future. >> yeah. we talked about this in the break room, but these members of congress do not feel comfortable that the fbi could not do the same to them, they might end up in their pajamas, to. >> thank you very much. we will see you tonight in special coverage and of course on the last four with my other guest, sticking around. we will be back in a minute. a.

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you also noted that mr. rosen said to mr. trump, quote, doj can't and went to snap his fingers and change the outcome of the election. how does the president respond to that, sir? >> he responded very quickly and said, essentially, that's not what i'm asking you to do. what i'm asking you to do is say it was corrupt and leave the rest to me and the republican congress. >> back with betsy woodruff swan, and matthew miller. let me play the members of

congress, going in between donald trump and the doj of the time. >> calling on attorney general barr to immediately let us know what he is doing. >> we are working on challenging the certified electors. and tell me about the courts. how pathetic are the courts? >> democracy is left undefended if we accept the results of a stolen election, without fighting with every bit of vigor we can muster. >> today is the day american patriots start taking down names, and kicking ass. >> they can say whatever they want to push the justice department around and bully them. in your imagination, what might they have done in addition, if they are asking for pardon.

we know they met with the president from test the money today and that they gave the speeches, why might some of those people be wanting pardons? >> attended election fraud. look, i enjoyed today's hearing about jeffrey clark, because i cannot think of a person who is as hated by their colleague as clark was since, like, rasputin. so that's fun. but let's not lose sight of what is going on here. the reason why clark is important, is because he showed donald trump's criminal intent to defraud the country. right? when you are pushing a two bit environmental lawyer against the entire rest of the justice department, what you are seeing is criminal intent to defraud, and that is the same intent paul goes our head, perhaps, and

mo brooks, it's the same criminal intent because they were only getting information from a guy like john eastman or a guy like jeff clark, and not listening to all the rest of the lawyers in the world, that also shows their corrupt intent to defraud the american people. when that fraud does not work, right, when coups don't work, you expect reasonable retribution that's when they asked for a pardon. when they realize that trump was not going to be reinstalled of the president, people might ask questions about their role in the process. >> we know that from all the testimony that clark was brought to the attention of these legitimate doj leaders, by congressman perry. so, i am wondering if, inside the house gop or house-senate world, since ron johnson was apparently the currier, the bagman to take these electors and hand them to mike pence, is there nervousness inside of the caucus, now, that there might be criminal

exposure here for some members? >> there is clearly jitters within the house republican congress, and particularly the freedom caucus in regards to the direction that this committee probe is moving and we are seeing that, frank would come in real time, on twitter, as these folks try to push back against testimony presented today, particularly scott perry doubling down and saying he never asked for a pardon. of course, if he wanted to go under oath and say that in a way that has legal weight, the committee would be delighted to welcome him to do that. there is no indication that he has done that yet. but, looking at the groups, in particular, but are probably going to be the most stressed right now, but december 21st meeting which came up today is really important. this was a meeting where a host of house republicans, including louis gomber, congressperson elect marjorie taylor green, scott perry, and another number of others were at the white house with rudy giuliani, and also, meeting with vice

president pence and some of his staff, the understanding is that trump himself came in towards the end of that meeting a key focus of that meeting was to get pence on board with the john eastman plan of using january 6th to reverse the outcome of the election. it wasn't just a meeting, in some ways, it was part of a pressure campaign that pence was on the receiving end of, and we now know, based on the hearings and additional testimony, that there were conversations about potentially all the republican members of congress in that meeting, needing pardons. that kind of tells you what you need to know. >> definitely does. i wonder if you could give us any insight or a take on how much pressure the career folks that justice must feel, given the fact that there entity, the department of justice is intimately involved, and was a target of the plot, in addition to the vice president, you

know, the capitol , they were a target, to. all the way up to the top, the acting attorney general and his deputies. how much pressure does the doj, do you think feel, that they must act, not just to protect the constitution, and the country, but with themselves, the department of justice as an independent entity that does not get involved in elections. can you imagine them standing down, and saying, we are not going to investigate the president for this? >> i think the department is under extraordinary pressure. not so much the career staff to go about their duties and bring their cases but the political leadership who are going to bear the brunt of the political pressure from the hill. of course, no one more so than of the attorney general himself. and, i think they have been very careful, and very deliberate, some would say, very slow in conducting these investigations, but we have seen signs over the last few days that this investigation has ramped up. i think the most significant sign is the search warrant executed on jeffrey clark by

someone inside the of menstruation. much of people outside the ministration assembling fake electors, someone who was a part of the campaign talked to the president himself. i think the thing they are looking at most of all is not just whether they can indict a case and win a conviction because i think the argument is there. but when you have to win a conviction, that is very hostile to using criminal law to prosecute political behavior, i think trying to take all of those boxes and stepping back gracefully picks but i didn't even get to play my favorite soundbite which is, you did not follow the internet i do, which is the quote that has to go on, one day, donald trump's obituary, because that is a hell of a quote.

up next, alex holder joins me with a new quote from his donald trump dock you series, unprecedented. series, unprecedented. does daily stress leave you feeling out of sync? new dove men stress-relief body wash... with a plant-based adaptogen, helps alleviate stress on skin. so you can get back in sync. new dove men. a restorative shower for body and mind. oh yeah, that is them. (that is howard) yeah, that's on howard's campus. ohhh, she's so powerful, she carried on the family legacy. we were blown away. (chuckles) i not only was a student and an undergrad, but i've been a professor there for twenty years, so it's really a special moment to know that i had a family member who over a hundred years prior have walk these grounds. it's deeply uplifting. yes, it is. we're walking in their footsteps.

we have to be able to repair the enamel on a daily basis. with pronamel repair toothpaste, we can help actively repair enamel in its weakened state. it's innovative. my go to toothpaste is going to be pronamel repair. just hours before the january 6th select committee held their fifth hearing, today, members of the committee sat down with alex holder, a documentary filmmaker granted access to the former president, his family and advisers in the days ahead of and after generate six.

roughly 11 hours of footage was subpoenaed by the committee and holder has fully cooperated. 's documentary series will be released on discovery plus later this summer. alex holder, document refill maker and director of unprecedented. unprecedented. about their relationship, right? not about the election, just to be clear? >> i think was always going to be about the election, and that we started june missing the campaign -- the elections was going to be part of the story. i don't think it was ever meant to be part of -- i mean, what happened during the election campaign wasn't necessarily anticipated. >> and you first interview donald trump himself in december. you interviewed him again in march and may. characterize him -- this is after he lost the election but while he was still engaged in what we now know was a plot to change that. what's his demeanor and did you get the sense that he genuinely believed -- because this is important to his motives here -- that he had really won? >> he definitely believed that he had one. in fact, actually had a debate

with michael, our director of photography, about whether or not he truly believed in his own sort of rhetoric, i guess. and i was of the opinion that he did believe. and that was all part of the -- i guess, a game, innocence. but after my first interview with him in the white house, i was sort of astonished in that i was totally wrong, that he absolutely does believe that he won the election, which was extraordinary. >> and we've seen -- you know, his daughter, ivanka trump, testified that she actually believe the opposite. that she believed the attorney general, when he said that the trump had not won. did you get the sense that his family were encouraging him to continue to believe conspiracy theories rather than the truth? >> i'm not sure about whether his family encouraged him. -- at least a family matter members that i met and interviewed, certainly echoed the symbol of use, if not very identical views to their father, to him. so, it wasn't surprising, really. >> let me play a clip.

this is a new clip. this is one about the georgia election from that period. >> you can't have elections that are meaningless. you can't have elections that, if somebody controls the state of georgia, because, you know we have a governor, the poor guy doesn't know what the hell is happening. and he has lost control of the state. it is run by stacey abrams. and it's very sad to see it. and the secretary of state, this guy is like a hardheaded rock. he cannot move. all i want to do is signature verification. signature verification and it's a total win. they don't want to do it. and they are republicans. what is their problem? they are stupid. okay? they are stupid people. >> did you get the sense, in speaking with donald trump, that there was anything, and a limit to what he would do in order to remain president, including, was he willing to see violence done in order to remain president? >> i am not sure whether or not

he sort of intended there to be violence. but he certainly said things that which are quite extraordinary for really a president of the united states to say. that clip just now illustrates his moment which is, i mean, just astonishing. there i am, sitting in the white house, a british filmmaker, i don't really have any skin of the game politically, and he is looking the in the eye, and this is a diplomatic reception room, and he is a sitting president of the united states and he is telling me that the election officials in georgia are stupid people. so, it was certainly -- the rounds of possibility as to what could happen was certainly evident, for sure. >> and they were all republican, we should note. many of them up for reelection. let me play another clip. this is the clip of mike pence receiving the information that there is a house vote recommending the 25th amendment be used to remove trump from power, an extraordinary thing to propose. here it is. extraordinary thin>> if the vicd cabinet do not act, the

congress may be prepared to move forward with impeachment. >> 7:48. >> that's when i received it. the house members got hit a while back. ♪ ♪ ♪ yeah, excellent. tell zach to print me off a hard copy for the trip home. great. i am always hopeful about america. >> it goes right to, i'm always hopeful about america. did pence have any further reaction in front of your camera crew to that suggestion? that the 25th amendment be used? >> no, no. i think it was just that specific moment, which is pretty extraordinary, to sort of capture. >> yeah. >> and i think his reaction was -- i think viewers will come to their own conclusion as to what he may be saying or what it implies. but there certainly was an extraordinary moment for short,

to capture. and also, that took place six days after january six as well. so, it's a historic date in its own right. >> you interviewed trump twice after the january 6th insurrection had taken place. did he express any remorse about the violence that took place, including the threat to lynch the man we just saw, former vice president mike pence? >> at least to me, he did not, no. no. >> did you get the sense that he had any sort of reaction, normal human reaction, to the fact that that violence had taken place? >> in my interaction with him about january 6th he sort of doubled down on the position that it was sort of almost an expected result because he believed that the election was stolen. and so those that were going to be capitol essentially using his words, smart. >> wow. cannot wait to watch this. alex holder, thank you very much. really appreciate you being here. thank you. and this indeed was a very busy news day. and we didn't get everything!

so, the shortest join us tomorrow night on the reidout when we will discuss today's some disturbing supreme court rulings, including the one expanding the rights of gun owners that we will talk about. but don't go anywhere. i will be back in just a moment with my colleagues rachel met out, nicole wallace, lawrence o'donnell, our melber, the whole gang will be back again before we wrap up today's dramatic hearings. stay there. wrap up today' ay there

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makes its case, day five. how the former president tried to use the justice department to help him overthrow the government and stay in power -- >> the president either called me or met with me virtually every day. >> the president, throughout all these meetings and telephone conversations, was adamant that he had one and that we were not doing our job. >> the president said, just say the election is corrupt and le