couldn't come through the mags because they had weapons? >> correct. >> and that his response was to say they can march to the capitol from the ellipse. >> something to the effect of, take the effing mags away, they're not here to hurt me, let them in, let my people in. they can march from the ellipse. take the effing mags away. then they can march to the capitol. >> take the magnetometers away so my supporters can have their ar-15s. they're not going to hurt me. they're going to need them at the capitol. the insurrectionists were breaking into the capitol. >> do you recall seeing this tweet in which the president said the vice president did not

have the courage to do what needed to be done? >> i do. >> what was your reaction when you saw this tweet? >> as a staffer that works to always represent the administration to the best of my ability and to showcase the good things he had done for the country, i remember feeling frustrated, disappointed and really it felt personal. i was really sad. as an american, i was disgused. it was unpatriotic, it was un-american. we were watching the capitol building get defaced over a lie. it was something that was really

hard in that moment to digest knowing what i've been hearing down the hall, the conversations that were happening, seeing that tweet come up and knowing what was happening on the hill. and it's something that i still struggle to work through the emotions of that. >> again, it was a 24-year-old aide to the white house chief of staff who was disgusted. it was a 24-year-old aide to the white house chief of staff who said this was un-american, not the alleged leaders of our country who were watching on tv as the capitol was being attacked and staring blankly into their phones saying, what do you want me to do about it? >> i think maybe the most damning words yesterday towards mark meadows and every republican that has gone along with donald trump through this

january 6th insurrection, he had somebody who was a 24-year-old aide looking at the images and saying what all good americans were saying. >> knowing the difference between right and wrong. >> what all good americans, all patriotic americans were saying at that time. this is not hard, but it was hard for republicans inside the white house. it was hard for republicans and it's been hard for republicans on capitol hill. but this 24-year-old aide said it was un-american and it was unpatriotic. the united states capitol was being defaced based on a lie. mika, it's black and white, right and wrong. >> yeah. >> it is shocking, still shocking. not surprising, still shocking, though, that people like mark meadows just can't bring themselves to ever see the world

that clearly and to do the right thing. >> you hear her testimony, i believe, earlier that she was, like, i've got to get him to care, like, how do i get him to care, that he's detached, that he's in some sort of trump funk and he can't break from it for a second to look at the tv and see an armed mob headed to the capitol and to think, huh, there's something wrong with this. it must have been a very confusing and disturbing moment. as she said, she's still struggling with it. she was like, what is going on? am i the only person in this white house that cares that this is completely wrong? let alone all the illegalities pouring out of this story. >> how important is it for mark meadows to be close to the

president to be in these pictures. he's going to be remembered as a fascist henchman. wait a second. i think this sounds a lot like what i read about mussolini's rise to power, except here donald trump is trying to keep power. there's an armed mob. mark meadows knows that. he doesn't do anything about it. he knows they've got guns and knives. we hear they have ar-15s, we hear they have body armor. he knows they are marching to the capitol. he was desperate to get into the war room meetings with rudy giuliani. and his aide, his 24-year-old aide told him he had to stay away from those meetings planning the insurrection. mark meadows knows this mob is

marching. mark meadows knows the president wants him to be able to go to the rallies and not have to go through security, because he wants a bigger crowd and an armed crowd which can go to the capitol, bust into the capitol, go into the house chamber. if the vice president of the united states doesn't do what he's supposed to do, trump wants to be driven up there and go into the house chamber with the armed mob. this is as bad as it gets. there's just not another example of another president doing anything this. >> no. we're so mired and immersed in who donald trump is and has been for these last six or seven years. if president x had done even one of the things we've heard about from the last three weeks, it would be the most shocking thing

we've ever heard in the country. we have to put all these days of testimony together. yesterday we heard president trump being told there were weapons, there were ar-15s in the crowd and he wanted his supporters to keep those weapons as they move to the capitol. what we heard a couple of weeks ago is that the president as commander in chief did nothing to call the military, the attorney general, the justice department as these scenes play out. if you're merrick garland watching the details come together. they're doing their own investigation as well. they probably have much more evidence than even the committee does. the story has become pretty clear that he knew he lost the election, yet he fanned the flames, held the rally, was happy to have his supporters have weapons. he wanted to go to the capitol.

he was irate that the secret service wouldn't let him go. but once he was in the oval office, to stand down and let the attack on the capitol happen. >> to top it all off, after that, he wanted his vice president killed. said his vice president deserved to be killed. said later of the people that wanted to kill the vice president and the speaker of the house that they were good americans, that he loved them. this is, again, this is all pieced together. you connect the dots and it is an attempted coup against the united states government. this is sedition. you've got a justice department that may be uncomfortable bringing charges against a former president of the united states, but as this evidence continues to be rolled out in front of the american people, who are watching, they're going to have to act.

they're going to have to prove once and for all that no one is above the law, not even donald trump. >> i will say, you know, you pointed out the dramatic moments, the catsup on the wall, the lunging at the neck. they do point to state of mind, that his state of mind that day was so unhinged that he dent care if they killed his vice president. it does actually add some value to hear that he was actually physically losing control of himself. cassidy hutchinson also recalled a conversation between mark meadows and white house counsel pat cipallone in the west wing at the capitol was under attack right after they discussed with trump the "hang mike pence" chants being yelled by his supporters. >> not long after the rioters broke into the capitol, you

described what happened with white house counsel pat cipallone. >> no more than a minute, minute and a half later, i see pat cipallone barreling down the hallway towards our office, rushed right in, looked at me, said, is mark in his office? i said, yes. he just looked at me and started shaking his head and went over, opened mark's office door, stood there with the door propped open and said something -- mark is still sitting on the phone. i remember glancing in. he's still sitting on his phone. i remember pat saying to him the rioters have gotten to the capitol, mark. we need to go see the president now. and mark looked up at him and said, he doesn't want to do anything, pat. and pat said something to the effect of and very clearly said

this to mark, something to the effect of, mark, something needs to be done or people are going to die and the blood is going to be on your effing hands. this is getting out of control. i'm going down there. at that point, mark stood up from the couch with his phone in his hand. he had his glasses on still. he put both of his phones on my desk and said, let me know if jim calls, and they walked out of the dining room. i remember pat saying something to the effect of, mark, we need to do something more. they're literally calling for the vice president to be effing hung. and mark responded something to the effect of, you heard him, pat, he thinks mike deserves it, he doesn't think they're doing anything wrong. to which pat said something, this is effing crazy, we need to do something more. briefly stepped into mark's office. mark said something to the effect of he didn't think

they're doing anything wrong. knowing what i had heard briefly in the dining room, coupled with pat discussing the hang mike pence chants in the lobby of our office and mark's response, i understood "they're" to be the rioters in the capitol chanting for the vice president to be hung. >> let me pause on this point. as rioters chanted hang mike pence, the president of the united states, donald trump, said, quote, mike deserves it and that those rioters were not doing anything wrong. >> mike deserves it, mika. >> yeah. >> that donald trump, the sitting president of the united states, says in the oval office that his vice president deserves to be executed by an angry mob

and the mob, again, that's armed and is at the capitol because of him. >> yeah. i mean, so far the committee has done a great job getting a description of this former president, who's just a horrible, putrid person, just horrible, who turns on people like a chameleon. at this point, even doesn't care if his vice president is killed, again, pointing to his rage that day, his rage about his crowd size, you know, not enough people being there and being effing pissed off, according to the testimony. this is a crazy man. >> let's be clear here. willie, it's not just that he doesn't care if his vice president is executed by the mob. you look at the evidence laid out, you look at the timeline,

he wants his vice president to be hung, because when they're doing the chants, when he knows mike pence is in trouble, when he knows mike pence is on the move, that's when he tweets and actually throws more kerosene on the fire. >> exactly. he knew exactly what was happening. we just have to stop sometimes. i'll be that guy today that will just say, my gosh, we're talking about a president of the united states encouraging his vice president to be killed. stop and listen to what we're saying about this man and our country. this isn't some political dispute. this isn't a leaked falling out between the president and the vice president. we're talking about the president would have been okay apparently if his own vice president were killed. >> if you think about it, this

is where having known donald trump as a colleague at nbc for years, knowing his personality and then watching him so closely during the campaign and as he started this white house before we just couldn't talk to him anymore, this is something that would bring him into a rage, into a crazed, craven state. that is losing, being the ultimate loser, being the biggest loser in the world on the world stage. it is the ultimate humiliation for donald trump to lose and to be laughed at. i could see him losing it over all of that. >> his idea of loyalty, it's not loyalty to the constitution of the united states, not loyalty to the truth, not loyalty to any set of values at all. it's loyalty to him. the loyalty runs one way.

this is something mark meadows is going to find out very quickly. the loyalty goes up. it doesn't come down to staff members. willie, we go back to iowa, his first contest, the iowa caucuses in 2016 when he lost to ted cruz. what did he do? he went crazy and kept screaming about how ted cruz rigged that election. he just can't grasp the fact that he's a loser. >> he knew he lost in 2020 and persisted with this and pushed harder and harder. ask mike pence how four years of loyalty works out for you in the end. let's bring in jackie allemany and barbara mcquade. what was the reaction this

morning from republicans who watched this? we hear some of them were shocked. i doubt a lot of them were shocked by the behavior at this point of donald trump. but what surprised them as they watched cassidy hutchinson testify yesterday? >> there were a few things that surprised them according to some of the republicans we spoke to in the aftermath of her testimony yesterday, which was primarily that her revelations were stunning, shocking, in line with what they knew, what you guys just described about the former president's behavior, but also sort of this incredulity that cassidy actually betrayed those that she was so loyal to and worked so closely with, which even further underscored her credibility. this is someone who had spent her basically entire young adult life and career working for mark meadows. she was his right-hand man. people who worked closely with her told us she even carried his phone around for him at times, responded to text messages. she was five seconds away from

the oval office. she was really in the thick of things. but now what you're seeing and regardless of these private exclamations and surprise and just disappointment at what she described, you're going to see republicans and the full force of the conservative media ecosystem and even the u.s. secret service agency come down on this 25-year-old, try to poke as many holes as possible in her credibility and attack and shred her reputation. these lawmakers who serve on the january 6th committee have told us all along. they've said it in public hearings and said it privately, that they can't believe the courage and bravery of these young people, people like cassidy hutchinson, people like sarah matthews, another white house aide you've seen featured in those videotaped depositions who have spoken truth to power.

cassidy hutchinson, as some people told us in our profile on her yesterday, her testimony, you know, very well might have embarrassed people like pat cipallone. she's half his age, calmly, confidently, very detail oriented, gave a play by play of the chaos going on behind the scenes. i think that we also might expect people like pat cipallone to actually feel pressured and change his mind and come and testify under oath and corroborate important parts of cassidy's story. >> the pressure is on. the january 6th committee also presented recorded testimony from trump's former national security advisor. this was equally as jaw dropping. michael flynn, who pleaded the fifth at some crucial questions. >> do you believe the violence on january 6th was justified?

>> may i have a minute? >> yes. >> all right. i'm back. congresswoman cheney, could you repeat the question, please? >> yes. general flynn, do you believe the violence on january 6th was justified? >> can i get a clarification? is this a moral question or a legal question? >> i'm asking both. >> i said i plead the fifth. >> do you believe the violence on january 6th was justified morally?

>> take the fifth. >> do you believe the violence on january 6th was justified legally? >> fifth. >> general flynn, do you believe in a peaceful transition of power in the united states of america? >> the fifth. >> barbara mcquade, your thoughts? >> really astonishing. keep in mind that when someone says i am invoking my fifth amendment rights, it means because a truthful answer would tend to incriminate me under the criminal laws of the united states. so i think the suggestion there is that, unlike most americans, who would condemn violence and say of course they support the peaceful transfer of power, his truthful answer would tend to incriminate him. i never want to criticize someone for invoking their fifth amendment rights against incrimination, because ours is a system that is adversarial and not accusatory.

i think the use there is so telling that it is both morally and legally that he refused to answer a question that i think would be very easily condemned by anyone. it does, i think, suggest that perhaps he considered not only that it was morally correct to do what they did, but that there's a potential legal justification here, that the ends justifies the means. i don't know that crimes were proven yesterday, but i think many avenues of investigation were opened in terms of wanting to subpoena people before a grand jury. that includes michael flynn, mark meadows and pat cipallone, who have a duty to the american people to explain all these things they said in the presence of cassidy hutchinson. >> it really does speak to the twisted nature of his loyalty, loyalty that doesn't run to doing what's right, loyalty that doesn't run to the oath that he

once took, doesn't run even to the constitution of the united states or to this country. it runs to a want to be tyrant. it is really extraordinary. i agree completely with barbara. we never want to criticize someone for exercising their constitutional rights. but isn't it fascinating that it was donald trump who attacked hillary clinton and her people by saying only the mob takes the fifth. it was general flynn himself who attacked hillary clinton's i.t. worker for taking the fifth. and here he is taking the fifth when asked whether he believes in a peaceful transfer of power in the united states government. >> i can't wait to find out. the committee really left us hanging when they read these text messages or messages that were sent to people about to be

deposed, saying, he's loyal, he knows you're loyal. you know he reads depositions. my god, it's like a mafia movie. but i also just can't wait to find out who was that messenger. >> you know, i also want to hear more testimony about what mark meadows does and what mark meadows did. that's why i'm so excited that ginni thomas said that she wants to come testify before the january 6th committee. obviously she feels like she has nothing to hide. >> well, when we come back, what ginni thomas, the wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas is now saying about the prospect of meeting with the select committee. >> what do you mean? >> she apparently was for it before she was against it. >> but she said she wanted to

testify. she had nothing to hide. i'm so confused. she had nothing to hide. i'm so confused.

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a lawyer for ginni thomas, the wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas, is throwing cold water on the prospect of a voluntary interview with the house select committee. he expresses serious concerns about any interview congressional investigators would conduct with her. the attorney notes this has been a, quote, particularly stressful time as the thomases has been subject to an avalanche of abuse. the lawyer goes on to write this. as she has already indicated, mrs. thomas is eager to clear her name and is willing to appear before the committee to do so. however, based on my understanding of the communications that spurred the committee's request, i do not understand the need to speak

with mrs. thomas. talking about the text exchanges between mrs. thomas in november and white house chief of staff mark meadows. i'll read one from november 10th. ginni thomas writing to mark meadows. you are the leader with him who is standing for america's constitutional governance at the precipice. the majority knows biden on the left is attempting the greatest heist of our history. those are the words of the text from ginni thomas. will the committee hear in some form from mrs. thomas? >> yeah, willie. it's not just those text messages the committee has obtained from ginni thomas. she also was e-mailing with john eastman, the architect of the legal crew working closely with the former president to try to implement this plan to overturn the results of the election by having the state legislators

create these phony electors. ginni thomas was directly involved, e-mailing state legislators in arizona, encouraging them to sign onto it. we have heard by all indications that the committee has much more than we have yet to uncover about her communications with john eastman. ginni thomas went from last week saying she was looking forward and couldn't wait to speak with the committee, to now her lawyer is arguing there is an insufficient basis for her to come forward. we'll see what happens, but at the end of the day, i think, you know, there are various threads to this investigation and the alternate slate of electors, the phony slate of electors now being investigated by the department of justice. it raises just as many questions about criminal conduct as some

of these other revelations we heard yesterday. >> barbara mcquade, how rich, her representative complaining about a hostile political environment, when it was ginni thomas who actually texted mark meadows, telling him to stay strong and advocating like jesus and god and overthrowing a peaceful presidential election. it was ginni thomas who was asking arizona legislators to send phony electors. if we compare the protest outside of the supreme court, the peaceful protest for the most part, with the mob attacks on january 6th, not really much of a comparison. >> no. of course, it's not for the

witness to decide whether it's appropriate or not or why i don't see the need for you to obtain my testimony. there is historically case law that says the government is entitled to every person's evidence if they want it, if it is arguably relevant they're entitled to get it. she is all over this in terms of being a fact witness with her communications with mark meadows and john eastman. and i know she wants to have a separate identity from her husband, which she is entitled to, and she is being examined solely for her own conduct. one of the reasons they gave her the time of day is because she did have the clout of being married to a supreme court justice. remember, they wanted to utilize a lawsuit before the supreme court to declare trump the winner.

>> thank you both very much for being on this morning. up next, a major change in the global power structure as nato surpasses a huge hurdle that was preventing sweden and finland from joining the alliance. alliance from prom dresses to workouts and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have long term consequences. now as you're thinking about all the vaccines your teen might need make sure you ask your doctor if your teen is missing meningitis b vaccination. when moderate to severe ulcerative colitis persists... put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when uc got unpredictable,...

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let's bring in now from nato, national security council coordinator for strategic communications at the white house, retired rear admiral john kirby. a couple of bing news items to bring up. for a guy who's defended and spent his life in uniform, i know it's got to be a big day for you. turkey agreed to lift their objections, and now we have finland and sweden becoming members of nato. just how impactful, how important is that to global security? >> this is going to make a big

difference to the alliance's ability to defend itself and its territory and to deter future threats such as those from mr. putin. these are two modern militaries. i've exercised with them throughout my time in the navy. they have a lot of very advanced capabilities that they're now going to be able to devote to the alliance. there is a major muscle movement and we obviously very much welcome it. >> he talked about how this turns the baltic sea into a nato lake. you look at estonia and all the other baltic states and finland and sweden to the north, you look at poland, it's hard to overstate the strategic importance of this, isn't it? >> it is. i mean, it does very much increase nato territory, that's

for sure. and it makes the eastern flank that much almost doubles it in length. it wl certainly addo our terrentapabilities across thentire alliance, not just in the eastern flank but the southern flank too. again, these are two very modern militaries. we know them well, we work with them all the time. it will obviously have repercussions writ large. nato is a defensive alliance. this is not about posing a threat to russia or anyone else. it is about defense and only about defense. >> we had keir simmons, a great reporter for nbc news, was reporting from madrid, but interviewed some russians and even went to a museum that talked about nato's atrocities committed in europe, of course, pure propaganda, pure lies.

but underline that, if you will, for our viewers just in case anybody's confused. >> nato exists as a defensive alliance. it always has, joe. i mean, it got its start obviously in the late '40s with the threat of the soviet union. it is still viable and relevant. based on what putin has decided to do in ukraine, nato is more relevant and significant now than it's ever been. sweden and finland want to join now. that's a direct outcome of the threats to europe security that mr. putin has caused everybody to be concerned about. >> it's not just the addition of sweden and finland which is imminent now. it's also as the president and other world leaders announced today, the modernization of nato and the expanding out of their

footprint into different countries. what are the immediate implications of the strengthening of nato? as you know better than anyone, the war in ukraine is trudging along. it's not going to be a quick solution. thasy end to this. where do you see the state of the war right now and nato's role in pushing back against it? >> nato is not involved on the ground in ukraine, but there is a significant desire and need to make sure that the eastern flank of nato is properly protected. the president said we're going to defend every inch of nato territory. he announced today that we're going to make some changes in our own force posture, both permanent and rotational, to make sure the united states is meeting that commitment. inside ukraine, the war in the donbas has become a gun battle between the ukrainians and russians. this is territory they have fought over since 2014. they know the terrain well. the russians, for all the

advantages they have in terms of numbers, still have not been able to overcome challenges of logistics, command and control, supply, unit cohesion. they're making some progress, but it's not a lot. we're talking about kilometer by kilometer, sometimes street by street, because the alliance and because so many other countries around the world, more than 50 now are sending security assistance to ukraine so they can getter defend themselves. >> finally, let's talk about some news that broke, which is also extraordinary for nato and european security and american security. that is, of course, a permanent presence in poland. permanent is one of those words that people like me have wanted us to attach to our presence in poland since 2014. obviously there have been concerns with policy makers. but no more. obviously the events of the last six months have moved the united

states to make a pretty transformative move in poland itself. tell us all about that. >> this is going to be a forward command post of the fifth headquarters already in europe. that command post will now be permanently in poland. that is something that hasn't happened before. obviously the poles are excited about that and we're excited about that. if you look at the larger picture of what the president announced, also additional rotational deployments and even permanent deployments of other assets elsewhere. for instance, we're going to add two destroyers based in spain. we're going to start doing rotations of brigade combat teams inside romania. there will be other rotational deployments that will get more aggressive in the baltic states. it's a combination of not just permanent basing in this command

post, but the whole realm. president biden recognizes that the security landscape in europe has changed. not is changing, not will change based on what mr. putin has done. he wants to make sure we're meeting those commitments. >> thank you very much. still ahead, this hour on "morning joe," we'll turn back to yesterday's surprise january 6th committee hearing, including testimony that trump's former chief of staff mark meadows and rudy giuliani tried to get pardons from trump after the capitol attack pertaining to the capital attack. we have the legal implications behind that straight ahead. hav, like the new miracle-ear mini. available exclusively at miracle-ear.

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♪♪ 49 past the hour.

here is how vice chair of the january 6th committee, liz cheney, closed her presentation yesterday where she revealed the message from allies of former president trump have had to witnesses who are cooperating with the panel. >> or campaign whether they have been contacted by any of their former colleagues or anyone else who attempted to influence or impact their testimony. here's how one witness described phone calls from people interested in that witness' testimony. quote what they said to me is as long as i continue to be a team player they know that i'm on the right team. i'm doing the right thing. i'm protecting who i need to protect. you know, i'll continue to stay in good graces in trump world. and they have reminded me a couple of times that trump does read transcripts and just keep that in mind as i proceed through my interviews with the

committee. here's another sample in a different context. this is a call received by one of our witnesses. quote a person let me know you have your deposition tomorrow. he wants me to let you know he's thinking about you. he knows you're loyal and you're going to do the right thing when you go in for your deposition. >> thinking about you. special. >> what -- >> chilling. >> how mob by. >> very mobby. very trumpy. >> i think we should have an office pool. >> on who that was? >> i have a good guess. might be different than your guess. there's somebody that was sort of operating from the sidelines. >> i think kushner for meadows. >> no, no. no -- >> joining us now. >> when i say confidential, when i say confidential i say -- >> that's what i thought it was.

>> no! i don't -- see. >> i'm just thinking. >> we need an office pool and be confidential. i disagree. i don't think it is those two names. >> can hear it. >> use your inside voice. just between us and when we find out who wrote them we can circle the name. >> i will be right. >> i don't think it's those two people. >> i know who you're talking about joe. >> oh. can i say it? >> coming from a hotel in time around that time. >> i think so. i think so. it might be. i also know that there was a -- >> i think that guy had gotten too smart on trump by then. >> i think there was a certain -- there's somebody connected that would always call republican senators after they came on our show.

and say the president's very unhappy. the president thought you were loyal. the president is very unhappy that you have come on the show. so that was at a very small level there was this one guy who was sort of his muscle who let people know who were being loyal and disloyal. >> interesting. joining us neal catill and a former fbi agent specializing in counter intelligence investigations rasha angapa. >> neither will be in the office pool or mention any names they think who these people. i turn it over to my co-counsel. >> neal, what kind of questions are circles around mark meadows

right now? if you were his attorney withhold you be saying to him? >> i think it's a really dicey situation for him. he's trying to block some documents and comments that are coming out but yesterday's revelation from a credential witness that mark meadows sought a pardon as the chief of staff is damning. the supreme court says a pardon is acceptance of guilt. so that's pretty strong indication there was a criminal intent. the question you were just debating. i don't know if i enter the office pool but you're debating who called the witnesses and gave the trump wants, expects you to do the right thing. to me is donald trump part of those conversations with whoever that intimidator was? my guess is he almost certainly was and that's a conspiracy to

engage in witness tampering a separate stand alone crime that the prosecutors could look to in evaluating the case against donald trump. >> you said that mark meadows is claiming bogus presidential privilege. i wonder whether all the documents that he released and the text messages before realizing that donald trump was angry at him i wonder if he waved that privilege. >> it is a great point. sometimes that can affect a waiver. cassidy -- the witness' testimony yesterday may also do some of that to remove whatsoever bit of executive privilege is left. remember the supreme court 8-1 threw out the bogus executive privilege claims already so i don't think he has much to cling on to at this point.

>> punch bowl news reporting that at least one of those threatening messaging directed to cassidy hutchinson. asha, for your expertise and perspective in counter intelligence from the fbi just about the stunning allegations we heard yesterday of weapons in the crowd, the president of the united states saying let the people in. they're not here to hurt me but have the ar-15s and everything else to go up to the capitol. what did you make of the testimony you heard yesterday? >> i think that what hutchinson was basically establish a critical link in what we know. what we have until now is basically two parts of the conspiracy that seemed separate. one was a legal blueprint, the fake elector scheme and then the mob violence with the proud boys and the oath keepers but the

line between those two has not been clear. what hutchinson revealed is that there's advanced knowledge that violence would take place. on january 6. and not only was it anticipated, but trump was trying to facilitate it and wanted to make sure that the people didn't have the weapons taken away and planned to send them to the capitol. i think there's a question of how much that violence was actually a part of the plan. in other words, were they planning to have them -- the mobs and the militia groups be the muscle in order to execute the legal coup to pressure pence and take it over the finish line. i hope that doj is actually investigating that link which could go all the way to the top from meadows up to trump.

>> neal, what we also saw in this testimony is that rudy giuliani and mark meadows sought pardons attributed to january 6. what does that tell you? >> it does suggest to me that consciousness of guilt, acceptance of guilt as the supreme court said i think that's important. to have this testimony coming from this witness. i've seen hundreds of witnesses but she was credible, balanced and most of all a trump loyalist. yes, are the republicans pushing back? sure. they're saying she is not a senior enough official. or they're saying that the steering wheel claim is disputed but the objections as credible as limiting climate change with

bringing a snowball on the senate floor. we can tell the difference. she told the bigger truth. that's what's so devastating. >> that's my question for asha. rudy giuliani denied he asked for that pardon. how important is this testimony? because there are critics who will say it's one person. maybe it didn't happen. when you testify under oath and you are telling the stories, what level does that raise the information to? >> yeah. what gets me is those texts or tweets that you showed early on what hutchinson was receiving, what makes her credible is she has a lot to lose. she said if you protect the people you need to protect you'll be good in trump world.

there's nothing she gained from doing this. so i always look at that as being a critical factor in how credible someone is. i also think that with regard to the disputed parts of her testimony as neal said it is a part of a bigger picture and with regard to the drive in the su what is not disputed is that trump wanted to join the violent mob at the capitol. this was someone who saw this group as his private army and he wanted to be the general who was leading the troops into congress. if that had happened we would not be analyzing the crimes he's liable for because he would have been arrested days after leaving office. in whisking him away the secret service actually gave him