>> hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in the east. the january 6th select committee has thrown down the gauntlet to the man whose shadows has lurked throughout every single one of the public hearings held by the committee this month and who, according to reporting and according to the testimony of trump officials and aides, appears to have at least tried to be a bull work against some of the most dangerous schemes cooked up by donald j. trump and his fellow coup plotters. we are of course talking about trump white house counsel pat cipollone. after months of public pleas to cooperate and testify before the committee, the panel issued a subpoena. the statement was issued by chairman bennie thompson and vice chair liz cheney. the select committee's

investigation has revealed evidence that mr. cipollone repeatedly raised other and legal concerns about president trump's activities of january 6th and while the select committee appreciates mr. cipollone's earlier informal engagement with our investigation, with the ball now squarely in cipollone's quote the new york times is out with some important reporting, quote, the subpoena of a white house counsel a rare step for a congressional committee sent a clear signal of the aggressive tactics the panel is willing to use to force the cooperation of the white house top lawyer who could likely invoke attorney-client privilege in response to many questions. the committee has at times used the leverage of a subpoena or the leverage it creates to force witnesses to negotiate a deal for their cooperation. discussions about the scope of a possible appearance are expected to begin soon.

lawyer familiar with cipollone's deliberations who was not authorized to speak on the record said that the subpoena was needed for the former white house counsel could consider transcribed testimony before the committee and that cipollone would now evaluate matters of privilege as appropriate. as the times points out the subpoena of a white house lawyer is an extraordinary step for any investigation to take and then again, so are the circumstances that the committee is investigating as liz cheney points out to nbc news this morning. >> i think this is an instance where the president and the american people where we've been something we've never been through before and the very real and significant chance that there was behavior under way about which mr. cipollone expressed significant legal concerns, and i think he has an obligation to testify. >> liz cheney and the committee are also moving aggressively to

defend cassidy hutchinson. of course, it was hutchinson's gamechanging testimony this week that made it abundantly clear that sip loan's testimony would be crucial to the committee's probe. the trump allies who can't get themselves to challenge any of the substance or the main points of what she testified to, which of course, paints a plate-throwing donald trump wanted to enable the threatening of the lives of his own vice president and members of congress. trumpa will lies are disputing hutchinson's secondhand, by her own account, telling which she recounted under oath of a ride donald trump took back to the white house after his speech on the ellipse. it was described to her as the president lunging at a secret service agent because he was enraged that he could not got capitol with his fellow

insurrectionists. here's what liz cheney had to say about the attacks on her. >> i am absolutely confident in her credibility. i'm confident in her tnl and the committee is not going to stand by and watch her character be assassinated by anonymous sources and by men who are claiming executive privilege. >> trump world's desperate attempts to smear her and spin her damning testimony as the committee calls in the ex-president's top lawyer is where we start today. barbara mcquade is here, former u.s. attorney and michigan law pro fessor and msnbc contributor and pete strzok here, former counterintelligence agent and david jolly of the assert america movement and also an msnbc political analyst, mike schmidt from the new york times will join us in a couple of minutes and i start with you, barbara mcquade on the subpoena for pat cipollone. i remember in -- it's hard to keep of the impeachments straight, but i think it was impeachment one.

john bolton played chicken with the impeachment managers and chuck cooper seemed to indicate at the time or after the fact that a subpoena might have created some cover at some juncture for them to testify. why do these officials in some instances seek the subpoena? >> so lawyers have a duty of loyalty to their client. they don't want to be seen as being too cooperative with people seeking information about that client so sometimes responding to the subpoena gives them that cover. a subpoena says that a person must appear and provide information. it is axiomatic that the government is entitled to every man's evidence as case law says. so once you have a subpoena you can't say you i won't go in and cooperate and there's lots of information this he may have that's not protected by privilege. >> pete strzok, he's also

already there. this is not a criminal trial. this is being tried in the court of public opinion. if any of these individuals end up under criminal investigation by the justice department they have much stronger powers and abilities to subpoena any witness they need. what do you make of the calculation of pat cipollone's testimony? >> i think there are a lot of things going through his mind and certainly as he consults with his own counsel as to what he will testify or not testify before congress and two points i'd make. one, we know some of the events surrounding january 6th and things he might have said according to miss hutchinson. we don't know any number of other things that she was not aware of, that she didn't speak to that would involve events not surrounding the insurrection that patcipollone,nd with an eye to at some point sitting

down if he hasn't already sat down with the department of justice cooperatively or pursuant to a federal grand jury subpoena and laying out information. so in areas where he chooses to waive privilege, where he decides privilege is not an issue, all of these things are first being made in the context of when he might or might not say to congress, but i guarantee he and his legal team are absolutely thinking about how that impacts his relationship with the all of the ongoing criminal investigations with the department of justice, most of which are focused around january 6th and may well include other things that we are simply unaware of because they haven't been touched on by the committee. >> david jolly, i can't for the life of me get a frame around or empathize with wanting to preserve executive privilege at the expense of, at the cost of not helping the country understand a corrupt president like donald trump. i understand executive privilege. i worked in a white house. i know that the -- i worked in a white house, and i turned my

emails two or three times to house oversight investigators and i know that there's a different standard for the lawyers, but this is different. this was a coup organized by donald trump, directed by donald trump to overthrow the government he ostensibly led, and i don't understand the sort of glass chamber analysis that executive privilege is a higher priority than investigating a coup plot. >> well, certainly there would be precedent for breaking executive privilege, but it's a high privilege, and i think we will find out kind of to barb's point. it may be that pat cipollone is welcoming the subpoena. it may be that this is exactly what cipollone needs to begin to provide more information or we may learn that he resisted and refuses to comply. we don't know, but i think what we may have learned over the last 48 hours, nicole is why they called the emergency hearing with cassidy hutchinson

and i think it was to set the hook to have the subpoena because what cassidy hutchinson did is said that a key conversation, mark meadows, according to cassidy hutchinson, mark meadows said to cipollone. you heard him. you heard. he thinks mike pence should be hanged. now, if that is what cassidy hutchinson says then that suggests that cipollone heard donald trump suggest that the violence was permissible against the vice president of the united states. she also attests that cipollone said if the president participates further we'll be charged with every crime under the sun or whatever the phrase was. so i think what we heard that the j-6 committee was very specific. they needed cassidy hutchinson on the record and pass the hook with the subpoena. perhaps he cooperates, perhaps he doesn't. we'll learn. >> it's such a good point because the last thing we heard from the committee when they went out of session last week was liz cheney's public plea for

cipollone to cooperate and then this emergency hearing was cassidy hutchinson. let me play for all of you all of the ways in which pat cipollone has been presented by the january 6th committee to the viewing public. >> jared, are you aware of instances where pat cipollone threatened to resign? >> i kind of -- like i said, my interest at that time was on trying to get as many pardons done, and i know that, you know, he was always -- him and the team were always saying oh, we're going to resign if this happens or if that happens and i kind of took it up to just be whining, to be honest with you. >> what was communicated to me was that pat cipollone thought the idea was -- was nutty and and had at one point confronted eastman basically with the same sentiment. >> all anyone is going to think

that you went through two attorneys general in two weeks until you found the environmental guy to sign this thing. so the story is not going to be that the department of justice has found massive corruption that would have changed the results of the election. it's going to be the disaster of jeff clark, and i think at that point pat cipollone said this is a murder/suicide pact, this letter. >> and we understand, miss hutchinson, that you also spoke to mr. cipollone on the morning of the 6th as you were about to go to the rally on the 6th and mr. cipollone said make sure the movement to the capitol does not happen, is that correct? >> that's correct. i saw mr. cipollone right before i walked on to west exec that morning and mr. cipollone said something to the effect of, please make sure we don't go up to the capitol, cassidy. keep in touch with me. we're going to get charged with every crime imaginable if we make that movement happen. >> pat cipollone says we're

going to get charged with every crime imaginable. his deputy, mr. herschmann has also testified about f-ing felonies and f-ing crimes and extremely colorful language. mike schmidt of "the new york times" also joins us, and i want to ask you if there's any analysis inside the cipollone camp that having his lieutenants testify who would certainly be availed of the same privilege claim opportunities, but haven't, and don mcgahn's history of spending 20 or 30 hours with robert mueller for something much less explicit than every crime imaginable and f-ing felonies being committed under his nose. >> look, pat cipollone pauls into sort of an interesting bucket of people. so there are different types of -- trump's world was balkanized and was particularly balkanized during this period of time and cipollone was part of a group of people who had enabled

trump in the final two years of his presidency and discovered in the final weeks that he didn't really want to follow the rule of law. so what cipollone did was he emerges as a guardrail in this period of time as soon who was going to stand up and push back on the president, and what i find most interesting about cipollone is the mcgahn comparison. the greatest information, the most detailed information and investigative product that the mueller report came up with was the obstruction sections and it was based on don mcgahn. there were no junior white house aides who they were relying on. they were not relying on people really outside the white house. they were relying on the white house counsel and the white house counsel had an enormous amount of information about how donald trump was trying to get a hold of the robert mueller investigation and it was incredibly detailed and the fact that they had access to don mcgahn was why you had over 200

pages of an obstruction section of the report. so if you were to get cipollone, you were going to have someone that has a very good sense of what the law was and a very good sense of what trump was trying to do and how he was -- how the white house counsel was trying to stop him, so it would be incredibly helpful and fruitful for the investigators. >> you know, barbara mccray, the mueller parallel is interesting, and i remember in the second volume he was talking about there were witness tamperings that were investigated and i want to hear what liz cheney told jon karl about that. >> so you think some of the testimony you received wasn't truthful because people were threatened. >> the way i would put it is it gives us an insight into how people around the former

president are operating and to the extent to which they believe they can affect the testimony of witnesses before the committee and it's something that we take very seriously, and it's something that people should be aware of. it's a very serious issue, and i would imagine the department of justice would be very interested in and would take that very seriously, as well. >> i'm going to make a list and bring it to the set with me every day of all of the crimes liz cheney is pointing the doj to go look at. do you think this is one that they will heed her advice on or do you think it's something already under investigation by doj? >> i don't know whether doj had information about this before now, but it is absolutely an area that they will be interested in. this is a great avenue into larger corruption cases. number one, it's a serious crime in its own regard, and i know sometimes people like to dismiss this as near-process crimes and truthful testimony is the essence of the criminal justice system and when people try to

interfere with that, it's a serious crime and so sometimes you can use those potential charges with someone to get them to cooperate. the other thing is it is used as evidence of consciousness of guilt. that is a person needs to tamper with witnesses and cover up the truth if it's that damaging with someone else so it could be probative of criminal intent and this is something that can be in a criminal investigation that is lacking progress. >> on that front, we have so many people seeking pardons it's hard to keep track of that, too. i want to learn something, pete strik from another west wing adviser about how lawyers were assigned with trump official and it's in line with the committee being impeded of the scope of their questioning.

this is on cnn. trump world was aligning lawyers to a lot of these staffers who themselves don't have -- assigning lawyers. >> for people -- >> paying cassidy hutchinson's lawyer. >> she had someone positano who had been in the white house counsel's office is still aligned with trump world. she did her interview and complied with the committee, but she shared with me there was more that i want to share that wasn't asked in those settings. in that process she got a new attorney of her own and congresswoman cheney got a sense of questions that were asked that weren't previously. that's how this shocking testimony that people didn't realize before kind of came about and it didn't come up earlier, some of these facts. >> pete strzok, this seems to raise a million more questions than it answer, but it is revealing in that the assigning of lawyers for junior staffes

who didn't have deep pockets to cover the kinds of lawyers that the senior folks might have. it was a change in lawyers that precipitated this more fulsome testimony on tuesday night. what does that say to you that the lawyers were perhaps impeding or discouraging or refusing to allow her to, like i said in farrah's words, cooperate more fulsomely and asked, quote, how do i do this? >> i think, unfortunately, it's not surprising, but i think it raises a whole host of certainly ethical questions like if this group of attorneys that for assigned to the lower-level staffers are all being paid by trump. the lawyer has an ethical duty to their client, and so the question becomes who is the client? is ttd person paying the bills and in my mind, this does

nothing, but bolster her cred riblity hunt, and she working for a reputable firm. i can't imagine this representation where she's coming out with a credible response and, and things i dna know and they don't have the sfift kagsz of what they're being advised to do or not to do. >> no one's going anywhere today. we'll keep this going. when we come back, where the committee goes next after that blockbuster testimony from cassidy hutchinson. one member of the january 6th select committee saying it has opened the door for more people wanting to come in and talk to them. we'll show you that, plus the supreme court closed out the term with another radical and drastic decision that will have huge ramifications on all of us.

the loss for this country and the planet and just as potentially devastating, the court previews more to come, and it will hear a case that could re-shape how federal elections are deciding and something the backers of the big lie were demanding and more congresswoman liz cheney as the voice, and that he is a very real threat to democracy. all of that after a quick break. please stay with us. hat after a. hat after a. please stay with us. ♪ ♪ voltaren. the joy of movement.

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the unknown is not empty.

it's a storm that crashes, and consumes, replacing thought with worry. but one thing can calm uncertainty. an answer. uncovered through exploration, teamwork, and innovation. an answer that leads to even more answers. mayo clinic. you know where to go. every time a piece of information comes out we get more folks coming forward, and i think some of the things that cassidy hutchinson, who by the

way, is a brave american, you know, 25, 26 years old. [ applause ] >> showing far more courage than her boss. >> showing par more courage than her boss and showing far more courage than 99.8% of members of congress orfar more courage than her boss and showing far more courage than 99.8% of members of congress or 100. and she comes forward with a lot of information and you have people that want to clarify their conversation and there are people who talked to usual read that will want to clarify what they meant when they said something under oath and look, all we want to do is just get to the bottom of this. >> that was january 6th select committee member republican adam kinzinger on the aftermath of this week's stunning testimony from cassidy hutchinson. congressman, they are telling stephen colbert that her appearance at tuesday's hearing has already led to other people coming forward to clarify public

testimony ore renew information. david jolly, i am blinded by who the 0.2% are. what is your sense of what she has put in motion showing the cowardice of the republicans and the very real specter of the very opaque process at doj that could very well ensnare them, and last time i checked lying to congress is still a crime, too. >> adam kinzinger's point is well taken that the more that previous interviewees of the committee now know about what the committee knows, they might reconsider whether or not they were fully honest, truthful, forthcoming and whether or not they put themselves in legal jeopardy that's a fascinating point and the power of cassidy hutchinson's testimony was not just in being the brave american that adam referred to her as. it is also to paint a portrait

and a contrast with those who refused to testify, right? what liz cheney said about the bravery of cassidy hutchinson does not apply to mark meadows and does not apply to kevin mccarthy. the difference between cassidy hutchinson is willing to go under oath. the same applies to the difference between cassidy hutchinson and kevin mccarthy. so when mccarthy, meadows and these other figures go to fox news and other media and impugn cassidy hutchinson it's worthless on her part because cassidy hutchinson has shown a bravery and fidelity to the truth that those mostly older men who continue to claim privilege refused to show. >> older men being a very liz cheney-esque dig. liz cheney in this interview with jon karl doubles down on the credibility of cassidy hutchinson. liz cheney has behind her a whole bunch of former u.s. attorneys and assistant u.s. attorneys who have done as far

as what we've seen so far an incredibly thorough investigation. let me show you something that jamie raskin said about how much faith and stock the committee put in hutchinson's testimony. >> i've not seen anything that has contradicted on the record anything that cassidy hutchinson said. i know there are now anonymously-sourced allegations about what someone is saying or someone might say that's very different from someone going under oath and contradicting it. i found her to be an entirely credible witness who spoke with great candor and honesty to the committee, but if other people have not interpretations of events and i would like to hear from them, as well and nobody has contradicted the central important evidence that came out

yesterday. donald trump knew that he had heavily armed followers in the crowd and, in fact, wanted to wave them in and take down the metal detectors so they could blend in with the rest of the crowd, swelling the size of the crowd before the march on the capitol. nobody has contradicted that, and that, to me, is the central and most important thing that we learned yesterday. >> you know, mike, when you take what is ahead for this committee which is if they have it, sharing with the country any evidence of the nexus between trump and the violence and the definition of lunge is doesn't get at the most damaging thing she said which was -- and they played the radio traffic that trump's agents knew there were ar-15s along the parade route and trump still wanted to walk it. have you heard any pushback or

quarrelling with the things that damaged trump the most? >> the interesting thing that i would really want to know is that did the committee know that going into this and specifically on the anecdote of going to grab the wheel did they have a sense that it was going to kick up a storm and create an issue that was going to be a distraction? now, you're right. like, the basis of what she said, the broad brush strokes and the most important issues of the day do not appear to be in question, but what it is is that it's given trump's folks an area to raise questions about her credibility that in some ways does distract the committee from this larger thing. so the question is did the committee know going into this that there were going to be these questions and did they still feel confident? because there's a lot more that

the committee knows that we don't know. the committee has talked to people in the secret service. they've talked to other white house aides so they have a sense of what other people are going to say and they've had a good sense as we've seen in the previous hearings that they understand the significance of what they're putting out there. so they knew this would be an attention-grabbing thing and there are questions about the accuracy of it because it was so explosive and what information we have that backs up the claim to what the committee put out there. >> stephanie murphy also was on this network saying simply orn auto on did not have as clear of memories as miss hutchinson did. not a different account, but not

as clearly remembered. mark schmidt, david jolly, thank you for starting us off today. there was a great deal made at the supreme court, but there was one moment not to be overshadowed by the conservative majority's radical end to its term and that is the swearing in of our country's first-ever black woman to serve on the court. justice ketanji brown jackson. we'll show it to you next. brown. we'll show it to you next.

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>> please raise your right hand and repeat after me. i, ketanji brown jackson do solemnly swear. >> i, ketanji brown jackson, do solemnly swear. >> that i will support and defend the constitution of the united states against all enemies foreign and domestic. >> that i will support ask defend the constitution of the united states against all enemies foreign and domestic. justice ketanji brown jackson being sworn in today as the first black woman ever on the united states supreme court. she was joined by her husband and her two daughters saying in a statement that she is grateful to be part of the promise of our great nation. it was an historic moment to be sure overshadowed, though, by the highly polarized and controversial final end to this term. today the supreme court severely curtailing the ability of the epa to deal with the climate

crisis. justice elena kagan slammed the court's decision in her dissent writing this, the court appoints itself instead of congress or the expert agency the decision maker on climate policy? i cannot think of many things more frightening. wow. this comes as the court concludes one of the most radical and alarming terms in its history after eroding the right of women to control their own bodies, the right to seek redress to seek civil rights redress by police, separation of church and state and thebility of states to determine their own gun control policies. president biden condemned the recent actions of the court calling them outrageous and destabilizing and the moment only grows more urgence. today the supreme court agreed to hear a case to decide whether legislatures, not state courts, have final authority to decide how elections for federal candidates are conducted, an argument supporters of the big

lie have been making to overturn the 2020 election. just that. let's bring in dalia, legal correspondent and editor for slate and he is also hosts the legal podcast amicus. >> i spoke to someone on the other side of the political divide, and i said, how do you feel about the supreme court? this was a champion of trump's appointees to it and he said well, i try to remind myself that elections have consequences. i mean, this court feels like a frankenstein even to the people who voted -- some of the people who voted for donald trump. what is sort of the idea of how far they will go? >> you know, it's such an interestingroblem wn even the winning s isn't quite sure that they're winning. it's just massive,

institutional, destabilization and no matter what side of the divide -- there's a divide? what side of the divide you're on, i think it's really alarming to see a court that just looks like it's kind of become a vending machine, you know? where the conservative legal movement and the federalist society time after time not only gets exactly what it wants, but gets the max malist iteration of that, and i think that it really goes to this question with the 25% approval rating and the lowest in polling history and every opportunity given to re-legitimize itself, to pump the brakes, to signal in some fashion that this just isn't going to go harder and faster and more dangerous, the court resists that temptation, and i think that's scary no matter where you are on the political spectrum if y radical nature of the written

words. i mean, fatima, i think it was justice sotomayor who describes having a stench of the legislature wait for the appointment and confirmation of these justices before writing a law meant to designed their way to the supreme court because they know what you would do. now do you redeem an institution that has so flagrantly and publicly and brazenly played into and working with that kind of political nature of the cases they take and the decisions they write? >> we should all be deeply worried, and its current configuration and approach, i don't know that fld be redeemable in the way that it was with the public. it's acting purely political, and it has become the vehicle to

achieve the longlasting ideals of the right and that's not good for anyone. that's not good for stability. it's not good for democracy. when you were talking about the divide i was thinking, well, maybe the divide is those who are interested in clear, consistent rule of law in democracy and those who were interest said in destabilization because that is what it feels like in this team. >> dalia, i want to ask you about the perception of a court mandating pregnancy and permitting states to pass an abortion law that don't have an exception for the life of the mother in some instances and then banning those states from banning guns. i mean, what is the public to think of this court? again, regardless of their political party affiliation? >> i think the most interesting tell in the past week was justice alito's majority opinion

in dobbs. two points, one, he had the opportunity to change thing, right? this is the only time in history that an entire opinion will delete and when people recoil at the snark and the history that came before, he removed none of those. i think what he's telling us is he doesn't much care what the public thinks and then he bakes it right into the opinion. this may poll badly, not my problem. if you don't liable it go to your polling place and fix it. in a strange way, the court is taking this peter, oub versive thrive and having the public opinion to be in a max malist ruin and there seems to be this relishing in a hate that i have

never seen, and the only power they have is public legitimacy and to squander it and to squander it knowing that the public is furious is the kind of thing i've just never seen in my career. >> you know, fatima, clarence thomas taking on contraception and same-sex relationships and gay marriage feels like everything dalia said on steroids. >> that's right. when you think about contra ception more than 90% of women in this country have taken contraception in their life. he's taking a long standing a part of the constitution in terms of their protections so multiple generations have grown up with that certainty, and so they're signalling that everything is on the table, that they are okay with pulling us

back to a time when none of our rights was recognized fully and that there's nothing that they can do about it as they stand behind fencing and that is not the case. >> dalia and fatima stick around. up next we'll ask where the court goes to the extreme right. don't go anywhere. to the extre. don't go anywhere. [whistling] with technology that can scale across all your clouds... it's easier to do more innovative things.

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general, be comfortable defending a law that once again outlawed sodomy and questioned lawrence again or griswald or gay marriage that came to the legislature to put to the test what justice thomas said? >> yeah. there are all kinds of issues here, but certainly the supreme court has stepped into issues that i don't think there was a constitutional provision to deal with and this is one of those issues and there may be more. >> sure? and there may be more? that was texas attorney general ken paxton of supreme court overturning the election fame openly saying he will take up the challenge laid out by conservative supreme court justice thomas of ginni thomas fame and will target the legality of gay relationships, gay marriage and yes, birth control. we are back with dalia and

fatima. it doesn't look real that this is america in 2022, fatima. >> what justice thomas was doing in his decision was signaling to the right, signaling to state attorneys general and state legislatures to bring him those bills, to pass bills that go to undermining gay marriage, undermining contraception and undermining the privacy and intimacy of relationships and things that have been embedded in longstanding ways in our constitution and things that many people weren't aware could possibly be on the table. what he is saying is anything he is on the table and bring it to me. >> it's unbelievable. >> dalia, you write this in "slate" today. today the high court has proved itself to be a lethal combination of the history

channel and bazuka, after dobbs, women's lives will be subject to invafs ultrasound readings and neighbors and electronic surveillance, women will be spied on, turned in and arrested. states are a term. ing to restrict pregnant people's right to travel and receive medications through the mail. they are less protected from their rapists and predators and millions of women will be less safe from government surveillance and intervention everywhere both in their physician's offices and in the privacy of their own home. >> you've heard of women deleting period trackers on their phone and you're hearing women changing the way they live their lives. >> one of the things i am so struck by is that we have for the last five, six, seven years livered in a reality where people like fatima and myself say they're coming for roe.

we were told we were overreacting and we were hysterical and promised by all of the trump nominees that they were not coming for roe, that roe v. wade was not going to be coming for roe and too entrenched in the law and the minute roe is interestingly, th roe is overturned, the court says, we're not coming for your birth control and we're not coming for your marriage equality, you start seeing things like paxton saying, here we come, just bring it to me. one lesson here is that when people tell you it's serious, you might want to believe them because this is really, as fatima says, everything is on the table. and i think it's exactly right that all of the efforts to quell women's anxieties, people's anxieties, and to say this isn't happening are belied by the fact that people are not getting plan b, people are not getting emergency miscarriage care. people are not already feeling safe to ask for help and this is

exactly the nightmare we've been told was never going to happen in america. >> yeah, and i wonder, fatima, i love this sort of cliche, well, democrats can take the message to the midterms. i mean, hillary clinton made this the message of her presidential campaign in 2016 and was told many of the same things that dahlia's talking about. what is the -- i mean, the glass has been broken. we've passed the break glass in case of emergency moment. that was, i would argue, 2016. what happens now? >> so, in 2016, people thought the court would never do such a thing. the faith and trust in it as an institution that would have a consistent rule of law, consistent interpretations, was very high. and now, we know different. now we see the state of this court, and i think people will believe that all of these things are on the table because justice thomas has signalled it. and in realtime, we are seeing

laws passed that do affect contraception and in vitro fertilization, so it isn't a hypothetical matter. people on the ground are facing this and see it coming. >> dahlia lithwick, fatima goss graves, we'll be calling on you often. thank you for spending time with us today. don't go anywhere. the next hour of "deadline white house" starts after a quick break. our "ofdeadline white house" starts after a quick house" starts after a quick break. ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ while wayfair is installing your new refrigerator and hauling away your old one. the joy of movement. you're binging the latest true crime drama. while the new double oven you financed is taking care of dinner and desert. you're remembering how to tie a windsor. and while your washer is getting out those grass stains.

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some incremental and perhaps temporary victories for abortion rights, but with potentially immediately -- immediate impacts for women in two states. first in florida, a judge there says he will temporarily block the 15-week abortion ban slated to take effect tomorrow, ruling with just hours to go that the new law, signed by ron desantis, is a violation of that state's constitution. and in kentucky, a judge has temporarily blocked the near total ban on abortion that was triggered into effect last week by the supreme court ruling. the judge says he needs more time to consider it, clearing the way for abortions in kentucky to resume in the meantime. add to that already three other states, texas, utah, and louisiana, where judges temporarily blocked abortion bans this week. we will follow all of that and bring you the latest. when we come back, liz cheney's political career is very much on

the line with her high-profile break from trump and trumpism. but for her part, she shows no sign of backing down. her powerful speech calling to protect democracy at all costs. that's next. h calling to protect democracy at all costs that's next.

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minions, i have been captured. you have 48 hours to rescue me. callmini-boss!673, my minions will save me. ♪♪ we must love our country so much that we will never yield in her defense. thank you so much. god bless you. god bless america. thank you. thank you very much. thank you. thank you.

>> after testimony for the history books, that was a speech for the history books. hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in the east. a standing ovation there extended to congresswoman liz cheney at the reagan presidential library following a speech wherein she delivered a searing takedown of those in her party for embracing trump and trumpism and therefore posing a serious and direct threat to our democracy. the 30-minute speech focused on the need for elected officials to put the country and one's oath of office before their party or the pursuit of power. cheney stressed the crucial choice currently before the gop. here is some more of cheney's powerful message >> i also know that at this moment, we are confronting a domestic threat that we have never faced before. and that is a former president who was attempting to unravel the foundations of our constitutional republic. and he is aided by republican leaders and elected officials

who made themselves willing hostages to this dangerous and irrational man. no party and no people and no nation can defend and perpetuate a constitutional republic if they accept a leader who's gone to war with the rule of law. with the democratic process, or with the peaceful transition of power, with the constitution itself. as the full picture is coming into view with the january 6th committee, it has become clear that the efforts donald trump oversaw and engaged in were even more chilling and more threatening than we could have imagined. the reality that we face today as republicans, as we think about the choice in front of us, we have to choose, because republicans cannot both be loyal to donald trump and loyal to the constitution. >> cheney's willingness to stand up to a man she describes as dangerous, the former president,

and the majority of those in her own party, in part by serving as the vice chair of the 1/6 select committee, has, of course, come at a great political cost to her. cheney was ousted from her position in republican leadership. she was censured by the wyoming gop. and she now faces primary challengers for her own congressional seat, including from trump-backed harriet haakeman. in spice of those political attacks, cheney has not wavered in her commitment to the country and the constitution, displaying a conviction that has garnered respect, even from some on the other side of the aisle. the "l.a. times" is reporting, about last night's appearance at the reagan labor, they write this, "the congresswoman proved to be a major draw. the library's parking lot was full more than an hour before the speech and eager audience members trudged uphill along the canyon road where excess cars parked. theull capacity crowd skewed more democratic than usual, and many attendees said they were

inspired to come to the speech after her performances on the january 6th panel." cheney's strong denunciation of the de facto leader of her party and his willing hostages is where we begin the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. michael steele is here, he's, of course, former rnc chairman and now an msnbc political analyst. miles taylor is also here, former chief of staff at the department of homeland security, as well as the cofounder and executive director of the renew america movement. and yamiche alcindor is back, the moderator of "washington week" on pbs. michael steele, we have for years now talked about how nothing changes anything or anyone. i don't know that that holds true anymore. i'm not saying you get 80% of the country to believe the truth, but you might just get 50 plus 1. i think cheney has punctured the bubble this week. >> i think she's punctured the bubble long before this week.

i think she's been slowly letting air out of that bubble for sometime. when people begin to see what real democratic, small "d," democratic leadership is about, where an elected official, who clearly has laneways of partisanship that she can go down, i mean, there's no doubt about her bona fides as a conservative, and so forth. but people look how you rise in the hour, how you stand in the moment, and she has shown, despite the attacks against her by feckless men in the party, despite, you know, umbrages foisted upon her by so-called conservatives in her own state, the reality of it is, she's shown the country a way forward. and she has, at the beginning of this hearing, as she did this

week, and as she did last night, said to the party, this is ultimately on you. say what you want about me. do what you will about my political career. at the end of the day, i get to look in the mirror and see the woman, the american that stood with the constitution. what do you see? and that's, i think, a very powerful moment, a poignant one for the party, which i believe they will go, we see what we want to see, later for you. and they will move on. but she will have -- she will have defined the moment, nicole, and that's what leaders do. >> michael steele, i want to show, especially our viewers, something. she deals with, i think, this uncomfortable alliance. liz cheney is a conservative's conservative. she's much more conservative than i ever was. and she recognizes that her alliance with democrats, who far outnumber her and adam kinzinger on this committee, she hopes is

temporary so they can get back to fighting about policies that divide republicans and democrats. let me play that. >> my fellow americans, we stand at the edge of an abyss and we must pull back. one of my democratic colleagues said to me recently that he looked forward to the day when he and i could disagree again. and believe me, i share that sentiment. because when we can disagree again about substance and policy, that will mean that our politics have righted themselves. that will mean that we have made the decision that we are going to reject anti-democratic forces, that we are going to reject toxicity, that we are going to reject some of the worst kinds of racism and

bigotry and anti-semitism that characterize far too much of our politics today. history has taught us that what begins as words ends as far worse. and we must reject those things. >> michael steele, what is unsaid there is that until our politics right ourselves, we cannot disagree. and i think that was distance she hadn't traveled before. >> i think that's very much the case. and you know, myself, like liz, have said to a lot of my democratic friends, i've said, y'all know we're going to be duking it out when we get this fixed, right? because these big policy issues that i think y'all just crazy on, we're going to have to have a conversation. and they say the same to me, as they've said to liz. and that's the space that we are all trying to strive to. i would think, not so much about politics righting itself, we'll

say that we've cleared that corner when we can engage that way again. and the politics isn't the thing. the politics doesn't matter, because what's in front of us, as we learn by watching the leadership of a ronald reagan, whose library she was at last night, a george w. bush, 41 and 43, looking at a teddy roosevelt, looking at the republican leaders who have gone toe-to-toe with democrats on big policy issues over the years, the politics wasn't the thing that was driving it. it was a philosophical view of how we approach this problem, and we worked it out. and that may be pie in the sky for some who have grown so cynical these days, nicole, but like liz, it's an aspiration that a lot of us still have, which is why some of us still hang around in this remnant of the republican party to try to, as i say, as a motel 6 republican, keep at least one

lightbulb on so that we have something we can return to. but you know, like many things, as you know, nicole, sometimes there's not enough light left in that bulb, and so i think that's also going to be reality that liz and others like her, myself included, are going to have to confront. >> yeah. i think you guys are going to have to reckon with that. i left the party, and i'm done waiting for the motel because i didn't see any lights from my spot on the road. but we'll deal with that later. cassidy hutchinson came up as well, and i want to show you what she had to say about the treatment of young women. this has been reported by journalists but never really given voice to by any republicans. let me show you this part of the speech. >> i have been incredibly moved by the young women that i have met and that have come forward to testify in the january 6th committee. america had the chance to meet one of these young women yesterday, ms. cassidy hutchinson. her superiors, men many years

older, a number of them are hiding behind executive privilege, anonymity, and intimidation, but her bravery and her patriotism yesterday were awesome to behold. little girls all across this great nation are seeing what it really means to love this country and what it really means to be a patriot. let me also say this to the little girls and to the young women who are watching tonight. these days, for the most part, men are running the world. and it is really not going that well. >> yamiche, that was my favorite line of the whole speech. i mean, they're running things, and it ain't pretty. >> it's so remarkable to see her sort of talk in such blunt ways about the way that she sees the world, and the courage that she sees in cassidy hutchinson, and

i think it is also poignant that she is saying this as she is already calling out pat cipollone, who was the former white house counsel, who is decades older than cassidy hutchinson, to say, come to congress, come before the american people, and speak your truth and let us understand what was going on in that white house as rioters were breaking through the capitol and as former president trump was continuing to spread his lies about the 2020 election and it's also interesting, because when i was listening to liz cheney talk about men and talk about sort of the role that she sees women playing in the future, there was some overlap there with my interview with former secretary of state hillary clinton, who i sat down with just yesterday. it's really interesting that liz cheney, in this section in her career, she has more in common or at least is sounding more like the people that she has fierce disagreements with about so many policy issues. i also think it's interesting that she's giving this speech as her own career, maybe political career, at least, may be coming to an end because she is having real trouble getting elected in

wyoming, so she's also saying, i'm putting myself on the line. she's part of the courageous women that stepped out and said, if i don't get re-elected, oh well, i'm going to talk about how dangerous it is for our democracy to be so tied to lies. >> that was a tease from yamiche. we are going to see some of her interview with hillary clinton. miles, i want to bring you in on this and play one more piece of sound for you guys. this is a great piece from the republican accountability project. with hutchinson's realtime sort of contemporaneous because she was right there testimony and what was happening on the stage from donald trump. >> when we were in the tent behind the stage, he was very concerned about the shot, meaning, the photograph that we would get because the rally space wasn't full. >> i turned on today, i looked, and i saw thousands of people here, but you don't see hundreds of thousands of people behind you. >> he wanted it full, and he was angry that we weren't letting

people through the mags with weapons. >> and i would love to have -- if those tens of thousands of people would be allowed -- the military, the secret service, and we want to thank you and the police, law enforcement, great. you're doing a great job. but i'd love it if they could be allowed to come up here with us. is that possible? can you just let them come up, please? >> i was in the vicinity of a conversation where i overheard the president say something to the effect of, i don't f'ing care that they have weapons. they're not here to hurt me. let me in. let my people in. they can march to the capitol after the rally's over. take the f'ing mags away. >> all those hundreds of thousands of people back there, move them up, please. yeah. >> i mean, miles, i think we understand for the first time that what trump says on stage was also what trump was saying behind the stage, remove the mags, remove the metal

detectors, they won't hurt me. it is damning to see her testimony alongside what trump was actually saying, calling out his secret service and the military for trying to protect the space. >> yeah, nicole, the testimony was absolutely damning, but i do think it's equally as damning that it was cassidy hutchinson. why? because no one knows who cassidy hutchinson is or no one knew until the hearing, and i say it that way, because don't you think that there's more than just one person that witnessed this type of behavior? don't you think that there were household names around donald trump who witnessed this behavior? but they didn't say anything, right? it fell to a staffer. and i'll be the first to admit that these so-called adults in the room thesis is b.s. and i was one of the first person who went out there and said, don't worry, america, there's adults in the room. i was completely wrong. you know why? because at the end of the day, those adults refused to speak up

when they knew better. and it fell to the staff around them, to people like cassidy, to people we saw in trump's first impeachment trial and his second impeachment trial, to come out and say the quiet part out loud. cassidy wasn't the only person who witnessed these absurdities. these grown men around donald trump did too. and they are being cowards. they are being cowards, and nicole, this, i think, pulls the veil off a war that's been happening in washington, d.c. there's a war between the whitewashers and the republican party and the whistle-blowers, and this week, with cassidy hutchinson and liz cheney, we saw the whistle-blowers punch back and show that they're trying to turn this tide so that the whitewashers who have brainwashed millions of americans that donald trump's a good guy and democracy's okay, aren't on the right side of history, that something much more dangerous is happening. that's what i think was especially shocking about her testimony is that it's fallen to those people and not the so-called adults in the room to get out there and tell the truth.

>> well, it's an excellent point, miles. it's something you and i have talked about so many times, and it includes legends, men of the military, people like jim mattis and john kelly and h.r. mcmaster. mattis and mcmaster wrote bologna books that didn't come close to telling the difficult, painful, and probably dangerous truths that cassidy hutchinson did. what are they waiting for, miles? >> yeah, this is super personal for me, nicole, and i'll just say it. one of the first things i was ever told, the first job i had was, don't meet your heroes because they'll disappoint you. it's good advice but i think it's wrong. i think you should meet your heroes as fast as humanly possible so that you experience that disappointment and then you can do better where they fell short. that happened to me in washington, it happened in this administration, as i watched a lot of heroic people fall short and not stand up and go out there and do the right thing. cassidy, i'm sure, experienced the same thing, and it's one of

the reasons why this administration was able to do what it was able to do is that those people really haven't stood up. and you know what? it was very frustrating in 2020 when a lot of us went out there to oppose trump's re-election, when the so-called adults in the room wouldn't step forward. but you know who did step forward? people like olivia troy and elizabeth neumann and john, people who were witnesses like cassidy hutchinson and there's more of them. i think the lesson should be, more should step forward, and i've talked to folks in and around the committee, and they do expect, because of her bravery, we may see more people step forward and i think that's a very good thing for democracy. >> michael steele, i'll give you a quick last word. we started the last hour with a subpoena for pat cipollone. this is someone who has already been in the hearings. many, many, many people have testified to his conduct. do you think a subpoena gets him

to cooperate more fulsomely? >> i hope so. bottom line is, make it stick. make it stick. i mean, look, if it's worth anything, it's worth the ink on the paper it's written on, make it stick. there's no -- in light of everything that we know now, there's no reason why cipollone should not be in front of that committee, and he can sit there and he can do a michael flynn and just plead the fifth, and we'll take it from there. but he has to appear. make it stick. >> we'll take it from there. i love that. michael steele, miles taylor -- go ahead. i see you. >> i was just going to add, nicole, i've sat there in the room with pat cipollone. almost no person in that white house knows more about donald trump's attempted crimes than that man. than his lawyer. and i'm telling you, pat has heard all the criminal things trump has tried to do. he needs to go before the select committee. >> or we'll just talk about all the f'ing felonies he and his deputies warned about as they

ran through the halls screaming at younger aides. michael steele, miles taylor, thank you so much. yamiche sticks around. where we return, president biden and hillary clinton pushing the senate to ditch the filibuster to product reproductive rights in america. what the former secretary of state told yamiche about that and the frightening prospect of what could be next. that's after a quick break. plus, the congressman responsible for keeping control of the house, our friend sean patrick maloney on how the end of roe and those blockbuster january 6th hearings could change the game for democrats this year. and four months into russia's brutal war in ukraine, there is no clear picture of casualties and no end in sight. two reporters who have been on the front lines will be our guests later in the hour. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. n the hour "deadline white house" continues "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. with technology that can scale across all your clouds... it's easier to do more innovative things.

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i believe we have to codify roe v. wade in the law, and the way to do that is to make sure the congress votes to do that, and if the filibuster gets in the way, it's like voting rights, it should be -- we provide an exception for this -- require an exception to the filibuster for this action. >> a potentially very big moment today, president joe biden urging congress to act and calling for an exception to the senate filibuster rules to clear the way for congress to codify the protections of roe vs. wade. as for what is at stake, hillary clinton suggests republicans have more planned. >> if the republicans gain a majority, particularly if they get a republican president, they

will try to pass a federal law banning abortion, so even the states like where i live, new york, that are determined to try to protect women's personal choices and not have the government deciding, they may very well face even, you know, further restrictions going forward. >> it is a harrowing new reality in this new world. we're back with yamiche. she's absolutely right, but it's still terrifying to hear it said out loud, yamiche. >> that's right. and former secretary of state hillary clinton really did issue a full-throated condemnation of the supreme court decision, and she said that she believes that women's lives are at risk and that women will likely die because people will either be trying to seek illegal abortions, or women will be forced to carry pregnancies that they simply do not want, and of course, there are health risks with that. she also said that people, of course, should not be feeling comfortable because they live in a blue state.

she was there talking about the fact that republicans could possibly pass a federal ban on abortion. she said they could go after other things like ivf or iuds, fertility treatments or contraception, so she's saying, people need to pay attention. she talked about clarence thomas and named him and said that people need to pay attention to his opinion, which talks about possibly doing away with the legal protections that have allowed people to have same-sex marriage and contraception. she says it would be naive to really think that that opinion is sort of an anomaly and not something to pay attention to. she was really issuing a warning here and she was telling democrats they need to mobilize because we know that republicans worked on this issue for decades. she said now it's time for democrats to really make the case that they need to be elected and grow their majorities. >> yamiche, did she indicate to you that she would campaign on this issue and help deliver that message? >> well, it's the key question, because after this decision came out, there was all this talk of

2024 and whether or not she might be interested in running. i put that question to her, and she quickly issues a "no." she also said she was going to be fully supportive of president biden if he were to run for office. take a listen to what she said. >> and if he decides to run, he's a sitting president, and you know -- >> would you endorse him? >> look, i would endorse our sitting president, yes, of course. i mean, that's a silly question. not you, but everybody who's asking, it's a silly question. so, let's go with the person most likely to win. joe biden beat, in a huge landslide victory in the popular vote, donald trump. i think that says a lot. >> and it's really -- >> yamiche, i love, "not you." >> right. well, she said not me because of course the question has been out there and i said to her, it's remarkable that a lot of democrats aren't doing what you're doing, which is saying very plainly that you will endorse president biden if he runs in 2024. most notably aoc, who is of

course a big name in the progressive movement, a sitting congresswoman. she would not say that she would endorse president biden if he ran for office again in 2024. so there's really some issues and some tensions there. she also said people who refuse, especially democrats in particular, who are not saying what she's saying, which is that they're going to endorse president biden, that's their problem, sort of they're giving her a little bit of criticism toward fellow democrats. we should note that, of course, president biden and a number of people close to him, they have indicated that he wants to run in 2024, but there's a lot of questions about whether or not he will be able to sort of garner the same support that he did, even within his own party so it comes at a really interesting time in the presidency right now. >> it's interesting. vice president kamala harris had the same kind of response that hillary clinton had. of course i will. it is definitely out there, and kudos to you for dealing with it and asking her to do the same. thank you so much for being with us, yamiche. we want to remind all of our viewers that the nbc universal

news group is the partner for the aspen festival where that interview and conversation took place. when we come back, sean patrick maloney is our guest. patrick malonelyy is our guest love you. have a good day, behave yourself. like she goes to work at three in the afternoon and sometimes gets off at midnight. she works a lot, a whole lot. we don't get to eat in the early morning. we just wait till we get to the school. so, yeah. right now here in america, millions of kids like victoria and andre live with hunger, and the need to help them has never been greater. when you join your friends,

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regressive pushback. >> the bottom line here is, if you care, if the polling data is correct, and you think this decision by the court was an outrage or a significant mistake, vote. show up and vote. vote in the off year, and vote, vote, vote. that's how we'll change it. >> with party leaders facing some criticism over their party's own response to the supreme court ruling on roe vs. wade, there's a prescription now and an answer for democrats. the solution for their elected leaders, you heard it there. vote. considering all that's happened, is it something people will act on? is it something they're willing to accept will stick work? let's bring in congressman sean patrick maloney of new york. he's the chairman of the democratic congressional campaign committee and a member of the house intelligence committee. it's nice to see you again, sir. i want to ask you how you take not just 63% public opinion that

was for leaving roe vs. wade in place, but what's happening now where these bans that leave out exceptions for life of a mother, 93% of americans oppose those, taking out the exceptions for cases of rape and incest, 83% to 87% of americans oppose that. how do you take the extreme nature of what republicans are actually doing now and turn that into an electoral issue? >> well, look, we're seeing dramatic -- we're seeing dramatic movement in the polls, in key races. we're seeing people in the street. i was at rallies in rockland county, new york, and in new york city over the last weekend. people are fired up. but we also have short-term actions we must take to protect roe now. i mean, there's a set of substantive actions that we need to take and they are executive actions, legislative actions, but they are also private sector actions. and we need to do all those things to make sure women are kept safe and that they can continue to make their own

reproductive decisions, and everything needs to be on the table. but there are also procedural ways that we can make democracy work better, and that's where the filibuster comes in, and then there's an electoral action we must take. right now, if you go to dccc.org, you can get involved in the midterms. we're going to put you to work, and that ultimately, holding the house, getting two more votes in the senate, is what's going to get roe v. wade back into federal law and guarantee reproductive freedom once again in this country. >> how do you take, though, the emotional appeal that republicans have successfully used for 40 years and match at? what you gave was the tactical and the procedural and the process for how you do it. but how do you make it land in the gut of the 93% of americans who oppose what republicans are doing? and that's these complete bans. >> well, look, the best message is always impact, and i think

right now, there are millions of americans who understand, we're going the wrong way. we are going back on 50 years of guaranteed reproductive freedom. talk to people out in the street. they get it. it makes them angry that their daughters, my daughters, are going to have fewer rights than the generation that came before them. going back 50 years. i talked to someone who's an immigrant to this country. he said, i came to america to escape governments that have policies like this. people understand, emotionally, what it means to have the supreme court rip away constitutionally protected rights, and they're not finished. anybody who cares about marriage equality, anybody who cares about making intimate decisions on their own, interracial marriage, even, all of these things depend on an understanding of the constitution that this court has now rejected. let's be really clear. if the republicans take control of the congress, with one law, they can ban abortion in all 50 states and the choice is going

to be, do you want a party that's going to criminalize abortion and ban it in all 50 states, or do you want a party that's going to keep roe v. wade protecting your freedoms? that's the choice. >> congressman, i want to ask you, because we had so many conversations about your work on the intelligence committee and your experience on january 6th, what did you think as you watched cassidy hutchinson testify this week? >> you know, it was a -- it was an emotional response that i had. i knew she was going to say what she said. i served with mark meadows in the congress. i had no doubt about who he is. but to see him, in your mind, through her description, frozen like a coward on that couch when cops are up there in a fistfight for four hours, when people are losing their lives, when democracy is hanging in the balance, you know, men like mark meadows were small and cowardly and craven, and they all ought to go to jail. they all ought to be held accountable. these were crimes that were committed. it is clear to me. i've seen enough.

there was planning, and there was coordination, and there was a concerted effort to defraud the united states, to inflame that mob, to incite an insurrection, seditious conspiracy. i mean, take your pick. and they all ought to be held accountable. we are way past the political disagreement at this point. so, i think it was riveting. i really commend chairman thompson and the members of the committee who are doing such exceptional work, and thank god the american people are getting the truth. by the way, we're also seeing that move the numbers. and together with the roe v. wade decision, i think democrats are getting fired up. >> let me ask you to put on your national security hat for a second. one of the revelations was this never before heard secret service traffic about the weapons that they knew were there. forget about the political actor of donald trump, but he was, at the time, the nation's commander in chief. do you have questions about the intelligence picture and what we knew and who knew it, and if the commander in chief knew that

there were people with ar-15s on the mall and did nothing, do you have new questions about who was in charge, who was functioning as the commander in chief, who was atop the nation's national security apparatus that day? >> well, i think what we saw on january 6th -- remember, i was there. i was on the floor, so i'm a little -- i feel a little personally about this. the idea that there were people down at the white house ignoring the warnings that were coming from people doing their jobs, from the cops and the fbi agents and the intelligence professionals, and the capitol police, who were saying, this is what we're seeing, this is what's happening. you know, it's not as if they didn't know. and what the testimony this week revealed is that they knew exactly what was happening. they may have planned for it. they may have worked for that outcome. the president was trying to get people with weapons up on the mall through the mags so they could go to the capitol. that was in the testimony. so, what i see is i see there's a layer of people doing their

jobs, secret service agents included, by the way, but then there's a corrupt and craven political element above that, probably those guys sitting over in the hotel next to the white house, mark meadows sitting in his office doing nothing, and while young aides and experienced lawyers alike are seeing the moral problem and the danger, the people with the decisionmaking authority, the president, the chief of staff, they do nothing for hours. and i think they did it on purpose, and i think they all ought to go to jail. >> wow. it is amazing that some of your republican colleagues called it a tourist visit, and we now know donald trump knew they were armed to the hilt and wanted them in anyway. congressman sean patrick maloney, nice to see you. thank you for spending time with us today. >> you get. and i hope everybody has a great fourth of july. ahead for us, the war in ukraine is now over four months old with no real end or resolution in sight. after the break, we will speak with two reporters, one who is

still in country, the other who has recently returned, about where the war goes from here and what america and americans can do to help. that's next. what america and amn do to help th'sat next.

to a child, this is what conflict looks like. children in ukraine are caught in the crossfire of war, forced to flee their homes. a steady stream of refugees has been coming across all day. it's basically cold. lacking clean water and sanitation. exposed to injury, hunger. exhausted and shell shocked from what they've been through. every dollar you give can help bring a meal, a blanket, or simply hope to a child living in conflict. please call or go online to givenowtosave.org today with your gift of $10 a month, that's just $0.33 a day. we cannot forget the children in places

like syria, born in refugee camps, playing in refugee camps, thinking of the camps as home. please call or go online to givenowtosave.org today. with your gift of $10 a month, your gift can help children like ara in afghanistan, where nearly 20 years of conflict have forced the people into extreme poverty weakened and unable to hold herself up, ara was brought to a save the children's center, where she was diagnosed and treated for severe malnutrition. every dollar helps. please call or go online to givenowtosave.org today. with your gift of $10 a month, just $0.33 a day. and thanks to special government grants that are available now, every dollar you give can multiply up to ten times the impact. and when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special save the children tote bag to show you won't forget the children who are living their lives in conflict.

every war is a war against children. please give now. there's a monster problem and our hero needs solutions. so she starts a miro to brainstorm. “shoot it?” suggests the scientists. so they shoot it. hmm... back to the miro board. dave says “feed it?” and dave feeds it. just then our hero has a breakthrough. "shoot it, camera, shoot a movie!" and so our humble team saves the day by working together. on miro. as the u.s. and our allies look to punish russia for the war in ukraine with an expansion of nato powers, the realities on the ground in ukraine paint a really bleak picture of what is to come. just last week, we surpassed the

four-month mark since the beginning of the war. thousands of innocent ukrainian lives have been taken, and the country has slowly but certainly been destroyed. as russia continues to make incremental advances in the eastern part of the country, the inevitability of a potentially years-long standoff between the two countries is becoming a much more likely outcome, putting thousands more lives, the entire ukrainian economy on the line. let's bring in two people who know all of this better than anybody, two nbc news correspondents who have been covering russia's war in ukraine, ali arouzi, live in kyiv, and cal perry, live in washington today. ali, we don't get to pull back the lens often enough and talk about the full picture. you both do that expertly. but i wonder what the feeling is on the ground and how they have had to recalibrate from what they thought might be a short burst of violence and fuel shortages and devastation and infrastructure and economic woes

to a much longer and sustained assault from russia. >> well, nicole, it's really taking a toll on regular people, on the military, and the country as a whole. look, i mean, it's destroyed the economy in this country. it's laid entire cities to waste that literally don't exist anymore, like mariupol, and it's showing all the hallmarks of grinding on for a very long time, becoming this war of attrition, possibly a forever war because, i mean, we've seen the u.s. intelligence talking about russia probably wanting to take this entire country, despite morale being low amongst russian troops, despite not making the gains they need to make. putin's objective still seems to be to take all of ukraine and most ukrainians you speak to are fully aware of that. they realize that he's not going to be satisfied with the east, with crimea, with taking mariupol. he wants this entire country,

and it's a frightening prospect for them, because they can't get on with their lives. you can't plan for the future when you're being viciously attacked by your neighbor. i mean, look, their candidacy status for the eu got rushed through, but at the end of the day, they know they're not going to become an eu membership, even if they go through all the procedures and pass it properly, until this war is over. people come and go from the country, thinking, okay, it might be safe to come back and start your business, and then kyiv gets hit, and they have to leave again. so, it's a very, very debilitating cycle for everybody in this country to live through, and if you watch richard engel's interview with zelenskyy, he also worries that the west is going to become very tired of this war with ukraine, because it's costing them a lot of money. the longer this war goes on, the more it drives down profits in the west when you factor in

refugees, energy, rearmament, these are all huge costs for the west, and if this is going to be a war of attrition, ukrainians are asking themselves, how much longer are we going to get supported? >> and i think, cal, the only thing more bleak than that assessment is the alternative. i mean, what do you think the ability for people to really contemplate the grim and really dangerous implications of the alternative, for the, you know, and i keep going back to the briefings that we all got at the beginning from the administration, that this was going to be quick. that russia would take over, they would have control of kyiv in a matter of days, not weeks. the ukrainians were the plot twist that nobody saw coming, that western intelligence missed. what is -- what sort of recalibrations have we made to make sure to help guarantee their success? >> so, i think one of the issues is, just because the ukrainians had that initial success of stopping the russians, it doesn't mean they're winning this war. the ukrainians are very much

losing this war. thousands of ukrainians are dying. we don't know how many civilians are dying. we don't know how many soldiers are dying on the front because it's a country at war and they're not going to share that information for very legitimate security purposes. i hate the winners and losers talk in war because it's war, and it's terrible, and there are no winners and losers, but if anyone's winning this war, the united states is winning this war, because their goals of strengthening nato, of strengthening a european alliance, of weakening the russian military, of costing the russian military lives, lives of young men and women who don't know what they're doing there, they're succeeding in doing so. we should also mention, big losers in this war are the millions of people who are going to starve to death in coming years. 18 million people in the horn of africa are now in a food emergency because of the war in ukraine. the united states, for my entire lifetime, was always seen as playing a peacemaker role in every conflict, and for all of

the obvious and right reasons, the u.s. cannot play that role here, but it does not take away from the fact of what you're laying out, which is the cost of this war in lives is something i don't think we have a good grasp of, and we certainly don't know how it really have evidence. skbler. >> it is horrifying and i have traveled a bit in the first to two weeks of summer, in towns big skbhal. there are ukrainian flags, there are signs for bake sales and i mean, there is something that does unite our very polarized company country. but i wonder, ali, hur paying your livens hur had when you are paying with an economy for the foreseeable future, it cannot feel like enough that america citizen stands with ukraine, does it? >> no, it doesn't feel enough. look, they are always grateful

for the help the that the united states is giving them but this is their war and they are paying a huge price for it it. i mean, look, when you are here in ukraine, you meet amazingly talented new generation of 20-year-olds that have all these prospects for the future. their intel jept. they're well read. they are worldly. lot of them are on frontline now getting killed ask you have to wonder what is going to happen to this generation that had such huge hopes and aspirations for their future and now all these men on the frontline ask we saw this prisoner exchange happen the other day these prisoners and i interviewed a couple of them krerd have been treated appallingly. their lives are finished. they talked about, you know, having horrific injuries, approximating left in a russian hospital with shrapnel in this -- in their leg, and their leg left to rot and the russians are doing that on purpose because they want them to come pack here maimed, ub unable to fight, unable to help their

country so you look ahead decades and this is going to take a really bad toll on this country ask leave deep emotional scars on this generation. >> yeah, that is something you both reported on, and, cal, from the earliest days of the war, i remember your reporting about the very first person who died. >> something other than a bomb falling on them. i think it was starvation or -- or freezing and the idea of having to watch someone go through that in the year 2022 share rowing. ali arouzi ask cal perry, thank you for sending some time be us today. a quick break for us. he will approximate right back. s he will approximate right back

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for the last eight weeks in our house, we have lived and died all the news made by the january 6th committee. my son's little league schedule. and this show sunday night. on which i was lucky enough to serve as one of the executive producers. it is an effort to try to help the people al kri and cal are talking about. the preponderate nnt victims of war in ukraine. so we have marshalled some of the biggest names in hollywood. paul mccartney, billy ilirn and her brother, chef jose andres, jan bap teebt, brian cox, jeff daniels, alicia key, julian moore, it's not even half of the number of people you will hear on sunday night and all them answered our calls. some of them answered my call the literalry to raise awareness, to feel connected to what is happening in ukraine and of course to always raise money

for some of the riff gees ask families affect by russia's brutal and escalating war. if you don't have any plans for sunday night, take an hour, sit down, it's july 3rd at 7:00 p.m. it is call "ukraine answering call." it a airs nbc 7:00 p.m. eastern and pacific he will see you there. quick break for us. we'll be right back. we'll be right back.

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of diet products before. i've tried detox, i've tried teas, i've tried all different types of pills, so i was skeptical about anything working because it never did. but look what golo has done. look what it has done. i'm in a size 4 pair of pants. go golo. (soft music) thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary homes. we are grateful. "the beat with ari melber" starts right now. >> hi, in i coal. we ever tracking news in the insurrection probe if further fallout and cracks after blockbuster testimony against trump has really ricocheted around the nation. the testimony linked trump to the violence of that coup attempts, turbo charging trump-world anxieties as they prep for even worst-case scenarios and there are more and more