peacock every thursday and friday. don't forget to follow us on twitter, instagram, facebook, and tiktok had the katie phang show. the katie phang show team and i also wish you a very safe and happy fourth of july. -- starts now. good morning, it is sunday july the 3rd. i am velshi and it is hard to overstate how disruptive infusing it has been for people across this country ever since the supreme court rooted kobe roe v. wade. even though it drafter that opinion leaked more than a month before the court officially handed down its ruling, nine days ago, few were fully prepared for the legal chaos and logistical challenges that are now taking place. opponents spent decades dismantling abortion rates bypassing a wide array of state laws that became increasingly restrictive and draconian overtime.

many states have multiple laws governing abortion on the books. in -- the world it is unclear which laws were infected with the even mean. take arizona, for example. it is unclear which law will take in effect there. two of the states top officials are indiscriminate about it. republican governor doug doocy says a recently passed 15-week abortion ban takes president. that would allow providers to offer some abortion care in the state. the attorney general, however, says that a 121 year old law banning all abortions is in effect. since the attorney general in forces the laws in the states clinics, they have decided that it's too risky to keep offering abortions. they have entirely stopped until everyone can get on the same page. arizona is one of the states highlighted in this darker red on the map. no abortions in those dark red states are being offered. the laws are clearer in some of these other nine states, but the reality of post roe america

is equally grim everywhere. yesterday i spoke with robin marty, the director of west of emma women system. the plane went into effect effect in alabama which -- when roe v. wade is overturned. it forced the clinic to top offering kara almost immediately. originally advised patients go to georgia as mel turned a, yesterday but he told me that the clinic i stopped doing it because alabama might be met a crime. >> i am seeing this with another emphasis in case anyone is listening. we have been informed that alabama is trying to understand what is criminal conspiracy law is. the eternally general announcing an interview yesterday that they are trying to decide whether or not it is a criminal offense, some form of a fence, something that can be if you provide information as to how someone can go to a different state. if you provide financial support or something that will help them get to another state.

we feel confident i will read it before it is in the letters of the law, because these were patients we already had a relationship with. i completely stand by that and will continue to stand by that, whatever happens. we cannot provide information to new patients. >> we cannot provide information to new patients. it's not a ban on abortion, that's a ban on abortion information. alabama is not an isolated case, far from it. a similar situation is playing out in texas where abortion funds have stopped helping people trouble cross state lines to access abortion care. they are fearful that it might be a crime to help someone pay for an abortion. the anxieties of the roe era extends to state where abortion remains illegal. take montana for instance. planned parenthood clinics have stopped issuing pills two out of state patients, and of concerns that it could open those patients up to liability in their home states. the closer you examined how our

post roe america is shaping up, the more it starts to resemble a police state. a lot of the focus in liability is placed on abortion providers right now. it's hard to imagine how women themselves could be punished for seeking an abortion, it's happened in the past. in 1970, three years before beau, 22-year-old shirley weaver was charged with manslaughter for getting an abortion and refusing to tell the police who performed the procedure. 52 years later, the host of the slow burn podcast, susan matthews, spoke with the prosecutor who prosecuted that case. i didn't consider this an abortion case. >> i looked at as manslaughter case. if she's going to kill a fully formed a viable child, then she is certainly responsible. if someone helping her do it, they're certainly responsible. that's just common sense.

>> just common sense? all takes is one person in a position of power who confuses abortion for murder or manslaughter to start slowing criminal charges against those seeking health care and those aiding them. it's possible that more, that half the states, half the every pregnancy that doesn't result in a live birth will be treated with suspicion including miscarriages. they are more common than people realize. according to the american college of obstetricians and gynecologists, 26% of all pregnancies and with miscarriage. this is the reality of what this country is facing right now. the right to an abortion is no longer constitutionally protected. overturning roe has led a huge murky gray area in the law that will lead to the prosecution of people who seek out and abortion in those who help them. >> joining me now is nancy -- she is the presidency out the center of reproductive rights. good morning, nancy, thanks for being with us. >> good morning. >> you know everything i've

just said. i'm not sure everybody in america knows this. i'm not sure that people who live in states that are not planning to ban abortion realize just how disruptive this is. the nature of it, the mean-spirited a bit of it, but i was told yesterday shocked me. that in west alabama, they cannot provide guidance and information, no abortion, no tools, no medical tools, no nothing. they cannot provide guidance in a information to women who need abortion and look for information where they can get, one where it is not for weeks long waiting, where it's illegal. they feel that they are staff can be prosecuted for that, so the kind of people seeking abortion services. >> this is a completely unacceptable situation that we have right now in the united states. the chaos, the confusion of the law. even more importantly, how this is impacting people on the

ground who are seeking abortion care. that we went from getting an injection in texas, at the end of the week, two clinics getting shut down yesterday and patient scrambling to find where they can go. the nation that you cannot give information. i want to say i don't agree with that as a legal matter, not out of the concerns that people have. this chilling effect, but absolutely in this country you should be able to tell people where we can go for legal abortion services in another state. this is a public health emergency. the inability to get abortion care. the biden ministration should declare a public health emergency and, in doing, that the obligate medication, abortion, into states. by telemedicine, by mail, even in states where it's banned. this is a public health emergency and we are urging the

biden ministration take that authority to address it. >> that is a big development. medication abortions, prescribed via telemedicine and sent across state lines. that is something that has only changed in the last few years leading to medication abortions, i think, being more than half of all abortions taking place right now. tell me what more needs to happen. what is still not possible on that front that could change, if president biden gets involved? >> right. well, right now we live in a state where abortion is legal and you can get medication abortion by having a telehealth visit with your physician and then having that prescribed and delivered by mail. the food and drug administration has approved telemedicine for medication abortions. think about that. never leaving your house, this needs to happen for people who are in the states that are denying abortion. it is a public health emergency. there is power under federal law for the secretary of health and human services to declare a

public health emergency. use that power to address the emergency. by authorizing and overriding state law, so that even in states where abortion is banned you can get it by telemedicine and then my met mail. never leaving your home. think about the difference for that for people in those states. not even having to scramble and think about how to go to other states and how to get in an airplane and find a clinic, the waiting times. this is such a straightforward way to address what is a public health crisis. >> given that some of these states are targeting contraception, do you not think that they will come for medicine abortion? >> well, they are trying of course to ban all abortions in the states we are talking about. but, you know, we need to use the federal power of the administration -- of the executive power in washington, to address it.

the biden ministration, by taking this route, could override the state laws that are banning using telemedicine and banning, frankly, abortion altogether. we have got to do something. it is not acceptable situation. we know. it is well-known the consequences when you can't get access to abortion, right? people will continue their pregnancies with all of the risks associated with pregnancy and childbirth, with people seeking, perhaps, unsafe abortion. we need to address this. the health consequences are noun. it is 2022 and abortion's health care. the world health organization acknowledges it as essential health care. this is needing to be addressed as the crisis of it is. >> you said something in your first answer that was much clear than the way i described at the top of the show. there's the actual confusion about whether some of these laws mean and how they work, as

we saw on arizona, but then there is the question -- he don't necessarily agree with that interpretation but the chilling effect of what may happen is almost as successful as the laws. the idea that information flow and data flow of abortions or cease because there is a fear someone may be charged. by the way, people can be charged whether or not the law is proper or not. there can be police going around charging people and putting them in arrest and these people can sit in a prison cell for a while cooling their heels. whether everybody agrees on the law, there is a chilling effect. >> that is right. i can completely understand why the clinics and abortion funds are very, very concerned. that is what chilling is. it is a really horrific thing to do, a horrific consequence of the criminal abortion bans and people concerned about getting swept in and with aiding and abetting laws,

conspiracy laws. we have got to really address this so strongly. it is absolutely not the case in a free country where you could say to people in texas you can't even get information on how to leave the state. this is why we need federal intervention and the ability to get medication abortion by mail and telemedicine. this so this credit crisis can be addressed. we also need to make clear, and of course there will be litigation on this in the clarity, that these states cannot do what they are trying to do. it to literally trapped people inside and all of them go to other states where abortion care is health care and it is available to people. >> leslie, thank you for your time this morning, we always appreciate when you join us. leslie is the president and ceo of the center for reproductive rights. since -- legal analyst accessible abortion care has proven to be

very safe. there's one way in which seeking an abortion today could be much riskier than before, it has to do with the data stored on your phone. other pieces of technology that you don't. those gadgets hold in inflation where you've been, what you're doing, who you are with, and in a post-roe air that information could be used to prosecute people seeking an abortion or helping someone else to him obtain one. that data is not safe and secure as most people would like to think it is. joining me now is cynthia conte cook, she is the -- of the gender racial ethnic justice team. she is also civil civil rights litigator. thank you for being with us, let's discuss this a little bit. the difference between pre roe and post-roe is that everybody has everything on their phone or computer, including looking for abortion services. how is that potentially detrimental under the legal framework that we're facing? >> well, no one truly knows the answer to that question. there is a lot of uncertainty and not --

not everything that will happen can happen. we know what has happened already. that is an important place to begin. tunnel evidence, like text messages, emails, search history, and websites visited have already been extracted from peyton peoples phones and used against them in criminal cases where they were charged with conduct related to the termination of the pregnancies. the digital forensics extractions devices that take this information out are widespread and used by system actors like police, schools, prisons, immigration agents, all over the country. they are often obtained without a warrant. most seizures actually occur because people think that there may be consenting to taking a screenshot of text messages, but they are obtained usually without a warrant. they are unregulated in regards to what's at's collection, how long and storied, and what it's used for. other police departments can even use it for other investigations. they are invasive. these tools generally get text

messages, emails, search histories, website visited, location data, social network, contacts, calendar events, any data that you could create with any app. they can allow keyword searches, image searches, map your locations visited, put in chronological order, apple and your social network. >> is there anybody doing anything about this right now? is it anyone who is either training people as to how to avoid this or tech companies that are taking a lead role in this? >> fortunately there is already many other movements that have had to deal with this very real difficult question. there's a lot of information and the grassroots movement spaces about how to manage the information that you have on your phone, how to safely access the information and safely network to organize with other people. many years ago a powerful group wrote a report called power not paranoia.

marginal bodies work and the electronic frontier foundation. we fight the immigration space and other groups have to tell the extent to which this information is used and how to navigate around the surveillance. >> the uv joining us, cynthia conte cookies -- and civil rights litigator. we'll talk someone else who navigate surveillance in a post-roe world who has a deeply personal experience with abortion in a perspective that is largely missing from the conversation. next, the next step in the january 6th investigation -- to answer trump -- 's subpoena from the committee. really appear? the -- they are commonly author of boyer raised, powerful memoir dealing with religion, family, and identity which some people across the country don't want you to read. you to read. put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when uc got unpredictable,...

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the break, the personal information that you store and sight line is about to become even more sensitive if you are seeking an abortion the. washington post reports quote, a google search for reproductive health clinic, all in order for abortion pills, location pen and a doctor's office and text messages about considering ending a pregnancy could all become sources of evidence. people constantly share data about their fertility online, privacy advocates say, even if they don't realize it. other obvious sources of healthy and include period tracking apps into check-in forms of hospitals. >> joining me now tatum hunter, a reporter for the washington post and author of that article titled seeking an abortion, here is how to avoid leaving a digital print. tatum, thank you for being with us. >> thanks for having me. >> you mentioned two things, some of them are specific to seeking an abortion and some of them are things that are not

specific to seeking an abortion, including period tracking apps or as you say, actually health care provider that constantly fill you in on abortions and the intake forms for a doctor appointment. where does the danger lie for people who may be seeking an abortion? is that information that is instantly on your phone or if you are charged with something that they can then subpoena your staff and look at your searches in history? >> so, the second scenario you just mentioned is a lot closer to what privacy advocates are concerned about this month. that tech companies, small and large, have such a large amount of data start on us, like you said, from tiny mock noxious moments in our days to internet searches and information on big intimate decisions. if the supreme court -- if law enforcement asked for that, we're not sure what would happen. >> how sure are we, we have a

picture of google on screen but places like google, apple, that we know they go to when there is a crime and they asked for information. if they successfully get a subpoena, generally, those companies hand over the data. >> yeah. these companies state in the policies that they push back and spread requests, but of course that language is so squishy. it is worth noting that there is president here in the u.s. of women being tried for abortion and having digital data utilized against them. >> let me ask you. i want to read from your article in june 29th, it has you schedule an abortion on plan parents who heads website could tell facebook. in it, it talks about the things that could be shared. why does that matter? how does plan her parenthood tell facebook and why does that matter? >> so, planned parenthood like almost every website for an organization or company that you visit has trackers running. it helps people understand how

they behave on the state, it also helps them with their marketing campaigns. in this case, they seem to have left marketing trackers running on pages that could be sensitive like a provider search for an abortion provider near you. they ended up sharing an ip address which could help and understand that service provider tryst back to an individual and even a selective method of abortion. >> what can happen with that information? how does that become dangerous to the user, other than the fact that it's private information you don't want facebook to have, does not become or create legal liability? >> absolutely. i think that he put on trial or, who we are seeing from our reporting on that, if you are suddenly on trial for a criminal abortion, a state government could issue a subpoena to a tech company to get data from their service. of course, it is always important to remember that the biggest factor of risk is your device. the people who are closest to

you, who have access to it or law enforcement, potentially confiscating. >> is there some movement underway, as there has been with a lot of other right to sue in the last few years, with companies or groups taking a leadership role and creating a world in which women are safe with their health information? using the dully? >> absolutely. my colleague at the washington post this week, our tech columnist jeffrey fowler issued a call to google to ask them to take steps to protect all of our sensitive health care data in a effort to protect women. privacy advocates have been warning us for years that, what some people call corporate surveillance, it gets a lot scarier when it's not just about targeted ads. when it's about the law, laws that you might not agree with, to think about the size of the collection of data that companies hold on. us >> tatum, have a deeply personal story about abortion. when you are teen you are not able to get abortion because

you need parental consent. you had a child and give her up for adoption. you've written about the trauma that birth mother's face when going through that road. i am quoting from your article, ultimately, a new pair of new parents pointed to my family's living room with a baby, and i went back to high school. the end. now i have a job, cat, and a husband, i'm aggressively normal except surrender when i start my toronto or mr. boss or recently sad, i'm hit by a wave i'm indescribable panic and pain. my baby is gone. >> this is a perspective we have not heard much in the conversation about abortion. >> absolutely. i think birth mothers are chronically underrepresented in conversations about wrap reproductive choice in adoptions itself. >> how do we fix that? you -- to fix this. how do we get that voice in the conversation? there is a lot of effort out there to say don't abort your baby, will adopt it. there's obviously a massive

backlog of adoptions america, but it makes something that sounds very simple and easy, you illustrate that is more complicated than that. >> absolutely. to answer your question, where does the responsibility lie for reaching out to and featuring birth mother voices. i'd say that responsibility lies with the people who are mentioning adoption. in that context, if you will mention adoption, if you will suggest that people do it, that is a great time to bring in a birth parent. sometimes their perspective might align with yours, or they're trying to mount. you have done the honest thing in that moment. >> thank you for bringing that to our attention, we appreciate it. tatum hunter is a -- reporter at the washington post. thank you joining us this morning. >> thank you. >> kathy hudson's explosive testimony last week brought us along the path donald trump took during the insurrection. now the committee is seeking testimony from another person who is in the room where it happened.

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committee will soon find out whether the former white house counsel under donald trump will corroborate the explosive claims made about trump in last week's public hearing. pat cipollone was subpoenaed for a deposition, scheduled for wednesday. after bombshell testimony given by cassidy hutchison, a top aide to then chief of staff, mark meadows. from previous hearings, we learned that cipollone warned trump against challenging the 2020 election results and did not want trump to go to the capitol after his incendiary speech on january 6th. but hutchison also told the public that cipollone had to be here of mark meadows that day and wanted him to convince the former president to stop the insurrectionists. according to hutchinson's testimony, cipollone was worried about the legal consequences for anyone on the trump team who showed up on capitol hill as the riot unfolded. >> mr. cipollone, right before

i walked out that morning. mr. cipollone said something to the effect of, please make sure we don't go up to the capitol, cassidy, keep in touch with me. we're going to get charged with every crime imaginable if we make that movement happen. >> do you remember which crimes mr. cipollone was concerned with? >> in the days leading up to the six, we had conversations about potentially obstructing justice or defrauding the electoral count. >> now, even though cipollone appears to be on the right side of history, somewhat, questions remain about whether he will appear before the committee and corroborate hutchison's claims. cipollone has that with the committee members before in an informal interview in april, but he's not cooperated with them since. which forced them to issue a subpoena which reads, quote, the select committee has continued to obtain evidence about which you are uniquely positioned to testify. unfortunately, you have declined to cooperate with us further, including by providing on the record testimony.

we are left with no choice but to issue the subpoena. joining me now is hugo lowell, congressional reporter covering the january six committee for the guardian. good morning to you my friend, thank you for being with us. what is the latest? do we expect we are going to hear from pat cipollone? >> i think we can expect to see pat cipollone go before the committee in at least a closed-door deposition. combined with that subpoena, i don't think there's any indication that he's not going to comply with a subpoena. the remaining difficulties, as far as i'm aware, is about the scope. the select committee would love for pat baloney to testify about everything that cassidy hutchinson testified that potentially corroborated testimony, including that part about being charged with every crime imaginable if trump went to the capitol that day. it's not clear whether that's going to work out, i know that the negotiations are ongoing about the scope. it sounds like, though, who going to talk about a limited set of issues that he believes will not hinge on --

>> the issue is, in the days since the testimony, cassidy hutchinson testimony, they've been forced supply coming from trump world and right-wing media too to imply that she wasn't really at the center of activity, she doesn't really know what she's talking better she's trade up making it up. that's a different story for pat cipollone, who's the actual white house counsel. he wasn't a staffer to someone else. so, if he does corroborate some or all of what cassidy hutchinson testified about, that b comes -- makes it harder to discount her information. >> correct. and pat cipollone was there for all of the worst moments, he was there when cassidy hutchison was around but he was also there for a lot of the 1 to 1 or smaller group meetings that trump was having through the postelection period. he was trying to overturn the election results, all the way through the january six and beyond, right through the inauguration. is there from the 18th of december meeting, when sydney powell and michael flynn and patrick byrne were trying to

seize voting machines. that cipollone was there, obviously, at the white house on the sixth. this guy can speak to a lot of what was going on in the west wing and can do so with a lot of credibility because he was, in fact, white house counsel. >> and hugo, for reporters like you coverage anyway, six you cover two parts of, it right? you cover the very large, 50,000 foot effort to overturn the election through the courts and through the electoral count act and all that kind of stuff. and then you cover the people who are charged with storming the capitol, the proud boys, the seditious conspiracy, all that. there's something that comes together in your reporting from june 29th, in which you say former president trump and senior aides face exposure over knowledge that supporters were armed and intended to march to the capital. the response from the former president is significant for two main reasons. it makes clear that he had been informed that his supporters were carrying weapons and that he name those armed people intended to make a non-permitted march to the capitol. that is where these two stories that you've been covering for over a year now come together. >> yeah, that's right.

the march was never permitted, there is never a permit for people to walk from the ellipse to the capitol. in fact, previous reporting has suggested that the white house mold it but decided it wouldn't be great optics to have the presidents and the cap crowd to the capitol. and of course, that's exactly what he did. there's an additional element they came out against the edge of this testimony that we should talk more about, which is the fact that trump apparently ordered meadows to call roger stone and mike flynn the night before the capitol attack. that's really interesting. these are two guys connected to the proud boys and, through their own organizations, the oath keepers. of, course to contagious that actually storm the capital. so, we have these for the connections, and that was the first time we learn that trump himself was directing his chief of staff to call these far-right cooperatives. i think that's really significant, we should see if the select committee is going to unpack that in the hearings ahead. >> hugo, thanks very much for joining us as always. hugo lowell is a congressional reporter for the guardian.

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revised goals after it failed to capture kyiv. ukraine has not commented on the claim and we should note that, throughout this war, russia has had a history of prematurely claiming victories. notably, in the city of mariupol. joining me now from kyiv is nbc news correspondent alison barber. ellison, good afternoon to you. tell us more about this claim from russia and what you can make of it. >> hey ali, we have reached out to ukraine's department of defense, they're ministry of defence, rather. we're still waiting here back from them but a spokesperson told the bbc this morning that russian forces are not in full control of the sea shops, they did acknowledge to the bbc that they were forced to retreat from some of their positions in the city because of intense russian fighting. as you, said russia's ministry of defense claims they have full control of this city. it was the last city remaining before russian forces and russian-backed separatists have

entire control of the luhansk region. the u.s. based institute for the study of war, they say they believe it is possible that lazy shops was taken over and controlled by russian forces yesterday on july 2nd. a new report, part of the reasoning behind that is that they have gio located footage that shows russian forces walking around the city in a way that they think they would not be doing if you ukrainian forces were still close by. remember -- is the sister city of donetsk, those two cities have been at the heart of the battle to control the luhansk region for months now. in may, russian forces claim that they controlled over 90% of the luhansk region but these two cities, ukrainian forces were putting up an incredibly strong fight in holding the back. center the nets, that is one of the bloodiest battles we've seen in this war. then he fell about a week and a half ago on june 25th.

at the time that that city was on the cusp of falling, russian forces, initially it was thought that to take lysychansk they would have hate -- and then another assault on the city through the river, but they started moving around and encircled simultaneously. right, now you have conflicting reports about who controls lysychansk, but we know the situation in recent days has intensified again and again. right now you have some u.s. think tag saying that it looks like russian forces control the city. ali? >> all right, alison, will stay close to you if you get confirmation or denial from the authorities. please let us, now we'll bring you right back to talk about. it >> msnbc's also barbers and kyiv, ukraine for us. according to the washington post, the former president told more than 35,000 lies during his four years in office. however, one thing he didn't lie about was his plans for the supreme court. he did exactly what he said he was going to do, packet with conservative judges and antiabortion judges. the trump court has already altered america, but what is

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be appointing pro-life judges. and that will go back to the inevitable individual states. >> would you overturn roe v. wade? >> if we put another one, two, or three justices on that's what will happen. that will happen automatically, in my opinion, because i am putting pro-life justices on the court. i am saying this, it will go back to the states. the state will not make a determination. >> that was donald trump telling the truth for one during a presidential debate in 2016. he openly talked about the plan that conservatives had been putting into place for years, packing the supreme court with antiabortion justices in overturning roe v. wade. regardless of whether you agree with the court's decision, this was a historic turn. aside from dismantling abortion, writes the conservative judges faith rule may religious rights in some cases. most notably that a high football coach had the ability to pray with players in game.

the court of redrawing line separating church and states. trump's appointees have sulfide the court's conservative majority along with samuel alito in clarence thomas. the chief justice, judge roberts, completes that authority. he is now voted as a swing vote, because he sometimes sided with the liberals. thursday was the last day of this court's turn. it was a eventful one, the high court issued ruling that limits the environmental protection agency's power to limit we greenhouse gas emissions. thereby restricting the governments ability to fight climate change. stephen breyer retired from the court thursday, he helped swear in kentucky brown -- the first ever black woman on the supreme court. when the court but convened in october it will hear a civil rights case that could change elections as we know them. known as war v harper, the case builds upon the independent

legislature theory that hold that state legislators have almost full authority in setting the rules and procedures for every aspect of federal elections. what could possibly go wrong? when we go back we will talk about the courts it transformation with -- and josh, graves two of the greatest legal minds right now. minds right now ♪ i want to rock and roll all night ♪ ♪ and party every day. ♪ ♪ i want to rock and roll all night ♪ applebee's late night. because half off is just more fun. now that's eatin' good in the neighborhood. ♪ ♪ ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement.

♪♪ (grandmother) thank you for taking me home. it's so far. (young woman) don't worry about it, grandma! this'll be fun. movement. (young woman) two chocolate milkshakes, please. (grandmother) make it three. (young woman) three? (grandmother) did you get his number? (young woman) no, grandma! grandma!! (grandmother) excuse me! (young woman vo) some relationships get better with time. that's why i got a crosstrek. (avo) ninety-six percent of subaru vehicles sold in the last ten years are still on the road. (grandmother) i'm so glad you got a subaru. (young woman) i wonder who gave me the idea? (avo) love. it's what makes subaru, subaru. i want to bring in ken gse now,

a professor of constitutional law at -- university. also for team a cost grace, ceo of the national women's law center and president of the national women's law center action fund. it morning to both of you. thank you for being with us. we have talked a lot about the constitution, the cream court in the last few years. well a packed week. while, rightfully, the abortion decision got the most attention, there were a lot of things that happened in the last week that the field many americans like setbacks. for seema, i want to talk with with you. notwithstanding the abortion discussion, what's your sense of the last set of decisions by the court? >> i think when you pair the abortion decision together with the client decision, the gun's decision, the decision around separation of church and state. all of this together lead people to believe that we are now in a totally new face with

this court. we are now in a phase where the long term political project of the right, which has invested so deeply in control of state legislature, the control of courts. that is coming to fruition. there will be very few checks on extreme ideas, extreme laws. the apportioned decision would have been bad and chaotic enough, but when paired with everything else it's really, really frightening around the direction that we are coming. >> kenji. i will say, having spoken to a number of abortion experts and abortion providers since this decision, they are even surprised at the speed and swiftness of how abortion rights are falling across the country. that said, and i did this decision or any of the others should be all that surprising, we have seen the signal by president trump and we knew when his appointees were confirmed to the course of things like this would be coming.

how do you think about? >> yeah, i couldn't agree more with fatima. i think that it's a reminder when someone shows you who they are believed in the first time. i really think that what's going on is important, showing who it is in a court and the full splendor. we are seeing not just who they are in the past couple of weeks, but with cases coming up whether that's regarding affirmative action, whether it's regarding religious exemptions from celebrating things -- same-sex marriages or whether that's the -- case they've shown that's a maximalist course. we saw justice roberts trying to pump the brakes on the abortion decisions but he no longer controls that court in the courts majority is really by a majority conservative majority. they really don't need to justice roberts in order to create or impose their will on the american people. >> 14, what happens next? obviously you are in the business of dealing with things that seem difficult and

overcome or even impossible in some cases. what can you do after? where you don't even need to reestablish protection for people who have lost them from the courts, it's the first time that the court has taken away a right in the way that it has done with roe v. wade. how do you fight this? what does success look like to you, does a look like changing the court? does it look like -- what happens? what should happen? >> there are two types of work that is happening right now, there is deep work that is an effort to ensure that people can get the care they need, they are protected. the really, really long work that we are all engaged and now is changing these rules. you need to look at changing both the court and changing a senate that is broken. it cannot be a democracy, that we can't pass laws and we can do nothing about a court that is so rogue and so dismissive of the constitution and its

precedents. >> professor yoshino, that sounds hard, but if this north carolina case that the court says it will take up in the next session, if that decision goes the wrong way what fatima just suggested is going to be substantially harder. that legislators can do whatever they want regards to federal elections whether they are contrary to certain laws, because court cannot be used as a place to challenge those decisions. >> that is exactly right. judge rudik said in the january six hearing committee, we see in this decision that is really, right, part of a playbook to say that state legislators get to choose the electors and things that determine a presidential election. given that 30 of the state legislators are currently controlled by republicans, we know that that will play out. i do think that we are hearing more calls, more insistent calls for judicial reform. that is expanding the number of

justices on the supreme court, or whether that is limiting the term of the justices on the court. we know under article three that federal justices have life tenure, but we don't know that they had that life tenure on the supreme court itself, it could be that they serve a term on supreme court and go back to a palette court. i think we are exploring, in a newfound way, these alternative options for thinking about what to do with this runaway court. >> and, tina, in a testimony that the professor makes reference to. justice rudik who is a conservative and republican warns that the republican playbook at the moment is undoing democracy and not the intention of everyone else, he doesn't call it democrats because he's not a democrat at all, he says everyone's attention needs to be on some of the smaller, procedural matters that don't make big politics that are undoing all the things that you suggested need fixing. >> you know, the public is paying attention to it. it's confidence in the court is really at an all-time low.

it is not like the court has an army, its power is based on its public trust. that has been nothing that has been a road of so deeply because of these extreme decisions, because of approaches that it has taken. because of the confirmation process. all of that, together, is making the public less satisfied and clear about what it is the court is doing. you have even heard calls around that come from inside the court in some of these decisions. >> thanks to both of you for joining us, we appreciate this conversation. can gene is a professor of constitutional law at nyu law school. for team as the president and ceo of the national woman's law center. straight ahead, latest on the january 6th investigation and the important and cost of blowing the whistle as a member of today's republican party. plus, today this week's meeting of the velshi banned book club. welcome garrard conley, author of boyer raced.

er raced good morning. today is sunday, july the 3rd, i'm ali velshi. over the course of six congressional hearings, the january 6th sect committee has ht to make clear to the american people just how complicit the failed former president was in the attack on our nation's capital. now, the committee is seeking the testimony of another key witness who could bring even more evidence, insight and important context to the potentially illegal behavior conducted by some of the ex president's most loyal cronies. but the question is, will pat cipollone, the former white house counsel, honor the oath that he took as a public servant? or continue to pander to trump and his base? cipollone was subpoenaed for a deposition that was scheduled for this coming wednesday after bombshell testimony given by cassidy hutchison, a top aide to then chief of staff, mark meadows. from earlier hearings, we learned that cipollone warned trump against ch