that does it for me. thanks for watching. i'll see you back here next weekend at 5:00 p.m. eastern. a beautiful shot of lady liberty on this independence day morning. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is monday, july 4th. i'm jonathan lemire. thanks for being with us today. the january 6th hearings are on hiatus until later this month, but the committee is not letting up. members fanned out across the sunday morning political shows this holiday weekend. they addressed the possibility of criminal referrals of donald trump to the justice department and what to expect from the evidence presented at future hearings. and from sky high gas prices

to canceled and delayed flights, a look at the chaos for holiday travelers across the country. we've got a lot of news to get to this morning, but we'll start with the january 6th investigation and the possibility that former president trump could be referred to the justice department for criminal prosecution. here's an interview with vice chair of the committee, congresswoman liz cheney. >> so the committee will or will not make a criminal referral? >> we'll make a decision as a committee about it. >> there is possible there will be a criminal referral. >> yes. >> which would be effectively the committee saying he should be prosecuted, and this is the evidence we've -- >> the justice department doesn't have to wait for the committee to make a criminal referral. there could be more than one criminal referral. i have greater concern about what it would mean if people weren't held accountable for what's happened here. i think it's a much graver constitutional threat if a president can engage in these kinds of activities and, you

know, the majority of the president's party looks away, or we as a country decide, you know, we're not going to take our constitutional obligations seriously. that's a much more serious threat. >> nbc news has confirmed at least one of the messages about possible witness intimidation presented in last week's hearing was received by former white house aide cassidy hutchinson. take a look. >> this is a call received by one of our witnesses. quote, a person let me know you have your deposition tomorrow. he wants me to let you know he's thinking about you. he knows you're loyal, and you're going to do the right thing when you go in for your de deposition. >> a source familiar with hutchinson's deposition says the individual referenced as "a person" in that message is, indeed, former chief of staff mark meadows. the committee declined to comment. a spokesperson for meadows

released a statement claiming, quote, no one from meadows' camp, himself, or otherwise, has ever attempted to intimidate or shape ms. hutchinson's testimony to the committee. vice chair cheney and several other members of the house select committee are weighing in on what will be presented during some upcoming hearings. take a look. >> do you have any evidence other than cassidy hutchinson's testimony to corroborate what she said happened in that presidential motorcade? >> the committee has significant evidence about a whole range of issues, including the president's intense anger, and i think -- >> anger at not being allowed to go to the capitol. >> exactly, at that moment. and so -- but let me just leave it there. i think you will continue to see in coming days and weeks additional detail about the president's activities and behavior on that day. >> i don't want to get too far ahead of what we intent to

present in our next hearings, but our very next hearing will be focused on the efforts to assemble that mob on the mall. who was participating? who was financing it? how it was organized. including the participation of these white nationalist groups, like the proud boys, the three percenters, and others. >> this happens every day. every day, we get new people that come forward and say, "hey, i didn't think maybe this piece of a story that i knew was important, but now that you guys are -- like, i see this plays in here." >> will we hear from witnesses you did not know about, stories you did not hear, because of the hearings so far? >> yes. yes, there will be -- there is and will be way more important. stay tuned. >> it also now seems more mik likely that former white house counsel pat cipollone will appear before the january 6th committee. cipollone will probably agree to a transcribed interview limited to specific topics to avoid any privilege issues.

cipollone has become a key figure in the investigation after former white house aide cassidy hutchinson painted him as a critical figure in the final days of the trump white house during her explosive testimony. >> he clearly has information about concerns about criminal violations, concerns about the president going to the capitol that day, concerns about the chief of staff having blood on his hands if they didn't do more to stop that violent attack on the capitol. hard to imagine someone more at the center of things. >> we'll have far more on the january 6th committee later in the show. let's now shift to holiday travel chaos. there's no relief in sight, as millions of americans are traveling to celebrate the fourth of july. flight delays, cancellations, and even some computer glitches are showing the masses are slowed down in a major way. for those who hit the road, gas prices just went up again in some states thanks to a tax hike.

nbc news correspondent george solace has more. >> reporter: before the fireworks even begin, many americans already blowing up in frustration. >> never come to an airport before wondering whether my flight is going to take off or not. it's a little nerve-racking. >> reporter: the last-minute scramble to get home for the fourth of july is on. tsa screened more than 4.6 million since friday across the nation's airports. those planning ahead still burned by ongoing delays and cancellations. >> my wife booked two flights, and one of them just canceled. >> reporter: since friday, more than 1,400 flights have been canceled, and more than 15,000 have been delayed. >> what's happening at our nation's airports? >> it's a mess right now. there's no other way of saying it. i've never seen anything like this. not in all these years. >> reporter: travel experts say it's a perfect storm, where supply isn't meeting demand. calling on airlines to be more transparent about their staffing. >> they have to get in front of this. they have to be honest about it.

>> reporter: american airlines experienced a scheduling glitch friday night that allowed air crew to drop flights, leaving up to 12,000 flights without pilots through july. the airline, in a statement, said the issue has been fixed, adding, they do not anticipate any operational impact. >> this is not about this one incident this weekend. you know, this is a much bigger -- as you know, i hate to be negative, but it is not going to fix itself next week. >> reporter: drivers facing other challenges. >> i think the gas prices are insane. >> reporter: the national average now around $4.81 a gallon. still a bargain compared to california, where gas hovers around 6 bucks. prices are projected to creep even higher. the golden state alongside six other states all imposed new gas taxes starting friday. nonetheless, some drivers still happily shelling out the green to see some red, white, and boom. >> woo-hoo! worth every penny, right, to be with family over fourth of july weekend. >> joining us now from newark

international airport is nbc' isa gutierrez. isa, i had to do some flying in recent days, airports packed. analysts predicted that air travel would return to pre-pandemic levels this weekend. is that what's happening? >> reporter: absolutely. aaa had predicted about 3.5 million people traveling by air this weekend. you heard george say over 4.6 million people since friday. yesterday alone, tsa screened over 2 million people. that number we hadn't hit since february 11th, 2020, before the pandemic. they had also predicted 42 million people hitting the roads. of course, we still have the whole day ahead. already, we're surpassing those predictions. as you can see behind me, this is not letting up any time soon. you know, cancellations, flight delays, over 17,000 delays since

friday alone at this point. travelers are really frustrated. by the way, the cost of traveling this weekend, as well, astonishingly high. not only the flights but the gas prices, as well. these road trips costing families a lot this year. >> gary, it's warm throughout much of the country. people want to go to the beaches, but as mentioned, prices are up. how are you seeing the impact of high prices there in bethany beach, and how is that impacting revelers and their holiday weekend plans? >> reporter: hey there, jonathan. yeah, folks here in bethany beach and beaches around the country will be spending the day enjoying their fourth of july, but they're going to be paying a lot more to do it. everything from getting there to staying there, even eating there is more expensive this year than it was last year. gas prices, i don't need to tell ya, they are high. they're $4.81 a gallon on average across the nation right now. food prices are really high, as well, up 17% compared to last

year, according to the farm bureau. i have a graphic here to show you. ground beef is up 36%. pork chops are up 31%. even a jug of lemonade will cost you a few cents more than it did last year. why is this all happening? well, we spent the weekend here in bethany talking to farmers and growers and consumers about their thought on all of this. of course, it all starts with the farmers. that's where the fertilizer has to get to so these crops can grow. farmers right now aren't getting the fertilizer from ukraine because of the war there. the costs of the high fertilizer gets passed along to the consumers, and consumers aren't happy about it either. here's what folks i talked to this weekend had to say. >> i bought three apples the other day, and they were $8. honey crisp, but i was surprised they were $8. >> reporter: did you buy it anyway? >> yeah, i did. i mean, you know, i'm by myself, so i want to have what i have. with everything going on in the world and stuff like that, i just accept it. i'm not going to complain about

it. you want it, you get it. >> we've cut back on a lot of things. we're here now, but we're eating in. going out is so expensive. we look for bargains. that's what you do when you cut back. >> unfortunately, i don't think we've seen the end of it either. i think it's just going to keep going. i think the demand is there. they know, too, when we goo to the store to get things, people tend to buy in bulk more, too. >> gary, obviously, a lot of this is blamed on the administration, even though some of this, of course, is out of their control. the biden team trying to do what they can to lower costs. the folks you're talking to there, are they feeling the impact? who are they blaming? who are they holding responsible for everything costing that much more right now? >> reporter: well, there was a number of blames made this weekend. most goes to the biden administration. of course, president biden said this will take, quote, as long as it takes, and that's how long the costs will stay high before

ukraine wins this war with russia. of course, that's what the biden administration wants to happen. folk on the ground just want to buy their tomatoes, buy their corn, buy their ground beef, and not pay exorbitant prices for it. jonathan. >> isa, you mentioned the chaos behind you. large crowds already at 6:00 a.m. on the holiday itself. do we anticipate today potentially being another messy one at the airports? is it going to spill over into tomorrow, as well? >> reporter: definitely. i mean, just in the last couple of hours since being here, this is already gotten a lot busier. i came up from downstairs at arrivals where there was a very long line at the bag office. you know, people who lost their bags in all of this travel chaos. these delays and cancellations are due to a variety of factors. we have weather issues. we have short staffing, of course, with these delays and planes grounded. plane staff is having to switch out. they're only able to work for so long, so passengers having to wait for staff to come in and

out. then there's also the overbooking issue. there were even reports this weekend of one delta flight offering passengers $10,000 in cash to rebook their flights. airlines here really just trying to do whatever they can to get people off the ground, to get people to reschedule to other flights. but passengers really frustrated here this weekend. we're certainly expecting to not see that let up in the next day, day and a half. >> also the impact of covid cases surging across the country, causing crews to go out sick and cancelling flights. certainly, none of this unique to america. europe battling high inflation and chaos at the airports. nbc's isa and gary, thank you so much for being with us today. still ahead this morning, russia claims to have taken control in a key city in ukraine's eastern region. we're going to get a live report from that war-torn country. plus, protests erupt in akron, ohio, after authorities

released body camera footage of a disrupting officer-involved shooting. we'll be joined by the attorney representing the family of jaylen walker. and president biden admits the democrats lacked the votes to change the filibuster to codify abortion rights. we'll have his new comments on that, and what democrats are doing to put the pressure on republicans ahead of the midterms. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. pliers, and a phone open to libertymutual.com they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need... and a blowtorch. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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and never wonder if you got a good deal. because you did. ♪ okay everyone, our mission is to provide complete balanced nutrition for strength and energy. woo hoo! ensure, complete balanced nutrition with 27 vitamins and minerals. and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. ♪ ♪ welcome back to "morning joe." joining us now, white house reporter for "politico," a man of many hats, eugene daniels. we ran through the weekend developments surrounding the january 6th committee. perhaps none bigger than the idea that pat cipollone, former white house counsel to donald trump, may be a step closer to appearing before the panel and the possibility that president

trump could be referred to the justice department for criminalo how they think all of this is going down? >> first and foremost, you know, people have been wanting to hear from pat cipollone since the beginning. this is a man whose name popped up a lot. for folks who don't know, the white house counsel is constantly in meetings with the president of the united states and others, constantly at the forefront of all of these conversations and issues. as we heard last week with cassidy hutchinson, talking about how pat cipollone was trying to get mark memeadows, t chief of staff, for example, to go with him to president trump, to get him to stop the folks from rioting in the capitol. he is someone they definitely want to talk to. when you talk to folks in the white house about pat cipollone or about the possibility of donald trump or the doj doing the criminal referral for donald trump, that is something that,

one, they don't really want to talk about because they know they don't want to be seen as i'm from the white house. i'm leaning on the doj in any real way. also, they're obviously watching that. that is something that has been frustrating for a lot of folks, a lot of democrats watching as all of this evidence is presented to the january 6th committee, all of this testimony, and people wondering what's going to happen legally. because, as we know, this committee doesn't actually have the power to put anyone in jail. it doesn't have the power to take anyone -- to do anything legally to these folks. this is about what the doj is going to do. i would caution folks who think something is going to happen pretty quickly because this is a doj under merrick garland who has been trying to work really hard to get the politics out of there. if you come for a president of the united states, you have to have everything airtight. so it is going to be a case, if that is ever something that merrick garland actually does, that he is going to be sure is a

home run at any cost. >> yeah, it does seem, at times, these committee hearings have almost been playing to an audience of one, to merrick garland, the department of justice, trying to push them to the direction of charging the former president. to this point, they've been, of course, reluctant to do that. as part of that, there is growing chatter that the former president may announce his next presidential campaign as an effort to ward off some of this talk of prosecution. but, eugene, let's talk now about the current occupant of the oval office. it seems a moment of perhaps reset for president biden. i was on his trip to europe last week. undeniable successes, particularly in nato, but he was celebrated on the world stage by his fellow leaders at the g-7 in germany and then at the gathering of the alliance in madrid, spain. and he returns to the white house today. tell us a little about simply how he is going to mark the july 4th holiday, but also how the white house hopes to shape the week ahead. >> we were just talking on saturday, jonathan, about how his trip didn't really break

through in america, right? that is something, all the successes he's had on the world stage aren't really cracking through here at home. so, today, the president, the first lady are going to have a july 4th barbecue. it is a tradition at the white house. i've been talking to aides who are getting excited, bringing their parents and grandparents to the white house to see some fireworks. and he is going to give a speech. it is interesting to look at this july 4th compared to last july 4th and where the country is. last july 4th and moving into july 4th, the president was basically almost completely focused on covid-19. it was the focus of the administration. a year later, there is this long, long laundry list of issues, including ukraine but also gas prices, also higher prices overall. talking about lemonade being a little higher for folks today. also what happened at the supreme court just last week,

two weeks ago, with the overturning of roe v. wade. so much pressure being put on this white house to do something on, frankly, issues where there is not a lot of power that the president can do. so people want to see more executive action on aabortion. people want to see what he is going to do to bring down gas prices. what are the things he can do to fix the travel issues and nightmares people have that are going on right now? there's not a lot this white house can do. that does not stop the pressure. that does not keep people from telling this president, telling this administration, telling us they want to see more movement and faster. what i hear from folks is it's not just that they want to see actual action, they want to see bills, that kind of thing, they want to hear more from the president about how he is fighting with x, y, and z, right? whether they're beefing on twitter with jeff bezos about gas prices and whether he's tweeting to gas and oil companies, telling them to make

sure their prices go down, all those things. people want more of that. >> last july 4th, a moment when the president had positive poll numbers and also declared the nation was going to have its declaration of independence from the coronavirus. that, of course, wasn't the case. the delta variant showed up weeks later, and the president's poll numbers have yet to recover. "politico's" eugene daniels, thanks for starting the holiday with us, my friend. we'll talk soon. let's turn to the ongoing war in ukraine. after weeks of intense fighting, the last ukrainian stronghold in the eastern luhansk region has fallen to the russians, signaling at last a significant victory for moscow. ukrainian officials say their forces yesterday withdrew from lysychansk as they were waging a stiff but losing battle. president volodymyr zelenskyy says the decision to pull out was made to save the lives of their soldiers from the relentless russian assault in the city. he also vowed that ukrainian forces would regroup and return to try to fight back in those

city streets. lyschansk was a key target for the kremlin in its bid to control the entire donbas region. its fall now gives the kremlin a stronger base from which to advance on the neighboring donetsk region. meanwhile, there was some attacks reported inside russia yesterday. russian officials say three ukrainian missiles hit the city of belgorod, killing four and injuring four others. the regional governor said the casualties including three ukrainians who were refugees from kharkiv. he also said the blast damaged 11 residential buildings and 39 private houses. there was no immediate comment from kyiv, but an adviser to ukraine's interior ministry say cu russia carried out the attack itself, saying it is part of a propaganda campaign. forces did hit a military base

in the russian-occupied southern city of melitopol. there were several s there were severaltrikes on a single base. ellison barber, thanks for being with us. the eyes of the world for a long time have been focused on the donbas, the region in eastern ukraine. russia claims to control the luhansk region. what's next there? >> reporter: yeah, really, you have this situation, where severdonetsk, the sister city of lyschansk, fell. they'd have to capture severodonetsk and make their way across the river to get to the sister city. they started from the south while they were fighting in severodonetsk. severodonetsk has been described as one of the bloodiest battles since russia launched its full-scale invasion of this

country. yesterday morning, you had russian forces claiming that they had taken full control of lysychask. remember, if you look back a few months ago in may, that is when russian forces claimed that they and russian-backed separatists controlled about 90% of the luhansk region. but you had these two cities, severodonetsk and lysychansk, ukrainians putting up a heavy fight. you had heavy street fighting ensue. now, what happens next? it is clear russian forces want to move further and ramp up attacks into the donetsk region. remember when russian forces failed their initial goals of taking some of the largest cities in ukraine, kyiv and kharkiv, they shifted their attention to the donbas region. president putin has made this claim that he needs to take back this area, liberate these areas, he says, of predominantly russian-speaking people, because

he has claimed, without offering any shred of evidence, that ukrainian government officials and others are carrying out a quote, unquote, genocide against russian speakers in the region. again, absolutely no evidence for that. ukrainian officials have consistently said that this is a kind of a shift of where putin didn't achieve what he hoped to achieve at the beginning of this full-scale invasion. in an effort to sort of consolidate resources, shift it to focusing on the donbas region, the question for military analysts has been whether or not, if he were able to take the luhansk and donetsk provinces, if he can declare victory and sort of go home. you talk to ukrainian officials, listen to people like president zelenskyy, and they feel putin has said this in many speeches of late, that this was never really about quote, unquote, liberating russian speakers or helping anyone in the donbas area. this was an imperialistic land grab, of putin trying to go back to the russian empire and just

grab as much land and as much territory as he can. president zelenskyy said consistently that ukrainian forces plan to fight to take back control of any territory that russia occupies right now. he says again with lysychansk that he'll do that. he also said they'll be able to do it with some of the artillery they have gotten from western allies. you talk to soldiers who have gone back and forth between the front line, jonathan. they'll tell you this is an artillery fight. >> and this was a real topic of conversation at those european summits last week. zelenskyy saying he believes ukrainians can mount a counterattack to take back the territories, even by end of the year. western allies less certain. we'll certainly be following this in the weeks and months ahead. ellison barber, thank you so much for joining us today. coming up on "morning joe," democrats aren't just using the courts to fight back against abortion bans. we'll explain what the "washington post" calls a, quote, patchwork of countermeasures. plus, new reporting that the department of justice was caught off guard by the testimony of

former white house aide cassidy hutchison at last week's explosive january 6th hearing. our legal panel weighs in on critics who say the attorney general needs to get a lot more aggressive on this case. "morning joe" is coming right back. rheumatoid arthritis. and take. it. on... ...with rinvoq. rinvoq a once-daily pill can dramatically improve symptoms... rinvoq helps tame pain, stiffness, swelling. and for some...rinvoq can even significantly reduce ra fatigue. that's rinvoq relief. with ra, your overactive immune system attacks your joints. rinvoq regulates it to help stop the attack. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin cancer; death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older with at least one heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq as serious reactions can occur.

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tech upgrades for your changing wifi needs. and advanced security at home and on the go to block millions of threats. only from us... xfinity. in the aftermath of the supreme court's reversal of roe v. wade, democrats across the country are trying different methods to keep the issue in the minds of voters. the ruling overturned decades of precedent despite a majority of americans supporting abortion access. democrats response to the supreme court varies widely depending where you look. the "washington post" reports on this. on capitol hill, house democratic leaders are discussing ways to force republicans into uncomfortable positions on abortion, plotting potential votes designed to expose gop opposition to some popular protections and underscore their own commitment

to them. that's according to aides with knowledge of the democrats' plans. meanwhile, at the white house, president biden first encouraged outraged americans to express themselves at the ballot box, then days later and in response to criticism, shifted to a more aggressive posture, urging a change to the senate filibuster to enable democrats to codify abortion rights. he said that in last week's news conference in madrid. across the country, liberal governors on the west coast band ed together to create a multi-state haven aimed at protecting out of state abortion seekers from prosecution. new hampshire to florida. a 10-year-old rape victim was denied an abortion in ohio after the overturn of roe v. wade. the girl was a little over 6 weeks pregnant when the ban took effect.

now, she must travel to indiana to receive the procedure. ohio's abortion ban took effect last week. indiana lawmakers are poised to further restrict outright or outright ban the procedure in the weeks ahead. right now, abortion providers like those in indiana are seeking an influx of patients from neighboring states. joining us now, former u.s. attorney in michigan and law professor at the university of michigan law school, barbara mcquaid. and state attorney for palm beach county, florida, dave aronberg. good morning to you both. barbara, let's start with you. that headline about the 10-year-old girl obviously ricochetted across the country yesterday. just give us the local perspective here, that this could happen to her despite being 10, and what now? is there anything that could stop her from receiving this abortion in indiana? how do you see this playing out? >> well, that is the cruelty of these laws, jonathan.

there are no exceptions for rape or incest. a 10-year-old who is pregnant is, by definition, a victim of statutory rape. yet, there is no exception in ohio's law for this. there's all kinds of scenarios where people become pregnant in ways that i think are not envisioned by those who oppose abortion. when the state has its hands tied by laws, you can't allow girls, women, doctors to make what everyone would agree is the right decision. then with regard to travel, for now, she's permitted to travel to the state of indiana, but there are states, including missouri, that are talking about having laws that would forbid someone from leaving the state with the purpose of having an abortion. i think that is of questionable constitutionality. but with the makeup of our current supreme court, i don't know that i have full confidence in them to apply the clause the way it has been in the past. >> dave, we talked about this

patchwork of defense measures that democrats are trying to put in place. whether from the white house, on the hill, and on the state level, to try to protect some access to abortion rights. i want you to focus, if you could, on the states. what legal measures can governors, state legislators put in place to try to protect abortion rights in their state? and, to barbara's point, no -- to those who fight travel to their state for abortions? >> states can codify roe verse wade in their own laws. there are 20 states, and the district of columbia, that protects the women's right to choose. unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be movement on a national law to codify roe versus wade because you can't get through the filibuster. as far as preventing people from traveling to other states, i share barbara's concern, but i think it is blatantly unconstitutional to restrict interstate travel.

even justice kavanaugh in his concurring opinion in dobbs said it'd be unconstitutional. he was part of the majority. when states try to restrict their citizens from traveling to other states, it'll eventually be struck down. all it take it is one rogue district attorney who is really aggressive, one of my counterparts somewhere, to try to make an example out of someone. then it has to go to a jury and on appeal until it eventually hits the supreme court. yeah, states can do things. right now, i think you'll see two americas. the states that outlaw abortion entirely, and you'll see the states that will welcome patients to be a haven. as far as the 10-year-old girl, i mean, what kind of world are we living in that forces a 10-year-old girl to carry her rapist baby to term? i mean, that's crazy. that's, like, when the governor of south dakota was asked that, it showed who she was when she supported existing law to require the 10-year-old girl to carry her rapist baby.

every candidate around the country should be asked about that. >> she was not the only governor this weekend who said that they, in their state, would force the 10-year-old girl to carry the baby to term. let's shift to the january 6th committee. every hearing has had explosive development after explosive development. yet, also, teasing what comes ahead. barbara, we're talking about earlier in the show pat cipollone, the white house counsel. you're the lawyer. you'll tell me how he does have the ability to invoke executive privilege far more than some of these other trump aides tried to. but what should we, you know, expect to hear from him, as he has emerged as a real key figure here in determining what then president trump was doing before and on january 6th? >> yeah. well, with regard to the privilege issues, it sounds like they're negotiating so that he can provide information. and to some extent, this is a little bit of a dance, i think. he demanded a subpoena. i think he'll testify.

i think there are many areas he can talk about. certainly, whenever there was someone present, a third party would waive any privilege he might have. as to what he can talk about, cassidy hutchinson really opened the door, i think, to putting the pressure on him to testify. she talked about things like he came barrelling down the hall to say, "if we don't stop this, there will be blood on your hands, mark meadows." when he said, "if president trump goes to capitol hill, we will all be charged with every crime imaginable." he was one of the people prepared to resign if donald trump fired jeffrey rosen and replaced him with jeffrey clark. he was involved in those conversations. cassidy hutchinson heard about some of these conversations. pat cipollone was present for the conversations. i think he can provide very important testimony that could demonstrate any number of crimes for president trump, from conspiracy to defraud the united states, conspiracy to obstruct an official procedure, and

possibly a conspiracy on january 6th. >> in trump world, they seize upon one detail that may not be 100% right, to try to discredit everything else. what they've done this time over the last few days is cassidy hutchinson's testimony, that the then president trump was reaching into the front of the limo or suv to try to grab the steering wheel. she said, "hey, that's what i heard. i didn't witness that myself." though video emerged over the weekend that suggested trump, in the suv, was gesturing at the minimum toward the front seat. how effective is that? is it a smoke screen by the trump world to discredit the whole testimony? what should we be looking at? >> it is a smoke screen, and it is sad. they're trying to discredit her by saying it is hearsay. hearsay is admissible in a congressional hearing. she was open from the beginning she was not in the car. she was retelling a story. even if that story proves not to be true, it doesn't mean she wa.

the thing to look for, jonathan, is the fact she said donald trump knew that his supporters were armed that day. yet, he still wanted the magnetometers to be removed. he wanted them to march to the capitol with him, and it'll move the needle for prosecutors for possible charges of obstruction of justice, conspiracy to defraud the united states, even incitement of a riot, and maybe seditious conspiracy. they'll be interested in the testimony. i don't think they'll care about the anecdote of trump grabbing the wheel. >> toss that out. certainly, her testimony damning from last week. dave aronberg and former u.s. attorney barbara mcquaid, thank you both for joining us this morning. coming up, we're going to be joined by the attorney for the family of jayland walker. he is the 25-year-old black man shot and killed by police in ohio last week. new body cam footage sparking outrage, as video shows officers

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newly released body camera video shows the moments leading up to the police shooting of a black man in akron, ohio, one week ago today. there were large protests in the city over the weekend. as a independent investigation into the shooting gets under way. maggie vespa has more. a warning, some of the imagesdi. >> reporter: nearly one week after jayland walker's death, and facing growing community pressure, officials in akron, ohio, releasing the body camera footage. >> the video you're about to watch is heartbreaking. >> reporter: it shows a harrowing police chase, followed by a hail of bullets. an estimated 90 rounds fired by eight akron, ohio, officers,

killing and leaving jayland walker with 60 wounds to the body, according to authorities. >> my youngest is 25 years of age, as well. and i cannot imagine what life would be like without my son. >> reporter: the approximately 7 minutes of raw video released alongside a second narrated clip gives insight into what preceded the shooting. they tried to pull walker over for a traffic violation and equipment violation, not shown on tape. they say he took off, driving at high speeds, and walker fired at them. you can see the flash from the gun from this security camera. >> 21 shots fired. had a shot come out the door. >> a shot is fired. that changes the nature of the contact. >> reporter: authorities say walker later ran from his car wearing a ski mask. officers, investigators say, fired tasers but missed. what followed, the deadly barrage of bullets. police saying officers said they thought walker was turning

toward them, reaching for a gun. walker was unarmed when he was shot. though police say they found a gun and what appears to be a wedding ring in walker's car. >> 60, 70 times, like they're inhuman. >> reporter: anger boiling over in akron. >> we have sons ourselves. it could be any of our sons. this is horrible. that many times? >> we are done dying like this. in this manner, with this fate. nobody should ever suffer the fate that jayland walker did. >> reporter: the family revealing just a month ago walker lost his fiancé. >> we know immediately after the death of his fiancé, he was sad. but he wasn't exhibiting any behavior that scared the family. >> reporter: the family's attorneys say the 25-year-old food delivery driver had no criminal record. his mother and sister pleading for peace, overwhelmed with loss. >> why?

>> why did this happen? and in such a manner. such a terrible, terrible way. >> just why? >> joining us now, attorney for the family of jayland walker, bobby decello. we saw him there in the package. good morning, sir. thanks for being with us today. what can you tell us about the latest in this investigation and the impact this new video, hard to watch and also, of course, now the revelation from the medical examiner that as many as 60 wounds were found on walker's body, what impact may this have on the case? >> well, the case is going to be notable for all time. for what the package you just played shows. a young man running across a parking lot is met with over 90 rounds, at least 60 of which strike his body. that's what the medical examiner

is showing. i need you to think about this. in kentucky a few days ago, a white man sat in his house, barricaded himself, killed two or three officers, and is in jail today. my client is in the morgue, and the other guy is in jail. now, why do i point that out? because we have to talk about how police attack sometimes. not all the time. not all police. but they do attack. in this case, there was an attack on my client. that was an attack. >> mr. dicello, authorities are claiming that walker fired a gun out of his car during the chase. walker did not have the weapon on him when he was shot. authorities saying it was, instead, found in his vehicle. what can you tell us? did he fire on officers? you know, what sort of is your sense of the run of play here, in terms of what happened when? >> what we're hearing from the

police right now is organized, you know, response that's designed to shed the blame and put it all on my client. that is absolutely wrong. let's think about this for a ap. you're driving the car, you open the door somehow with one hand. now, there's one hand on the steering wheel, presumably, and one hand on the open door. which hand uses the gun? let's assume you go no hands and use the gun and you have no hands driving the car. you have one hand opening the door. but the door, as you can see from the video, does not fly open. the hand doesn't flag a gun back in the direction of officers. so the only likely possibility, if there was any shot at all, was that he discharges a round onto the ground or at the ground. we also know there's no bullets in the gun and no magazine in the gun. they're going to have some explaining to do. i think the bureau of criminal investigation for the attorney general of ohio who is doing the

investigation going to piece this together for us. it is too early to tell whether my client possessed the gun. they're using a flash, they said, they get from the ohio department of transportation's camera you guys showed. they circle it with a red circle, none of which details a gun being pointed at police. i note, and i have to remind us, a few days ago in a standoff with dead officers, a man went to jail. how my client goes to the morgue with over 60 wounds in his body is inexcusable. >> lastly, sir, briefly, what do you want to see happen next? who do you want to be held accountable? what changes might you want to see made? >> we need changes, meaningful changes, in akron's pursuit policy. there is no reason for my client to have been pursued in this way. yes, he fled the scene of a traffic stop. that is not anything that should be done.

they had his information. they could have prosecuted him. he could have been fined. he could have been put in jail if necessary. whatever his fine or penalty was going on. but his penalty should not have been death. and i have to emphasize, not only does the chase policy need to be reformed but their use of force policy needs to be reformed. it needs to be in line with the state of the art when we talk about how guns are used and under what circumstances. in this case, two officers used tasers. the first two used tasers, so there was no lethal threat. to have eight officers respond with over 90 rounds, more than 60 of which took my client down, is, again, absolutely inexcusable. >> attorney for the family of jayland walker, bobby dicello, this is a story we'll be stay on in the days ahead. thank you for being with us today. coming up here on "morning joe," are trumps own staffers tanking his chances in 2024? the "daily beast's" matt lewis joins us with that take straight

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so the committee will or will not make a criminal referral? >> we'll make a decision as a committee about it. >> it is possible there will be a criminal referral, which would be the committee saying he should be prosecuted and this is the evidence we have uncovered? >> the justice department doesn't have to wait for the committee to make a criminal referral. there could be more than one criminal referral. >> that's january 6th committee vice chair liz cheney on the possibility that donald trump could be referred to the department of justice for criminal prosecution. members of the committee fanned out across the sunday shows this holiday weekend. the committee says the next hearing will spotlight the mob at the capitol, including who organized it and who financed it. we learned upcoming hearings will focus on donald trump's actions on the day of the attack and what cheney called his, quote, intense anger.

welcome back to "morning joe." monday, july 4th. happy independence day. 7:00 a.m. i'm jonathan lemire. federal prosecutors working on the justice department's january 6th investigation were caught off guard by cassidy hutchinson's revealing testimony before the house select committee last week. according to the "new york times," the federal prosecutors working on the case were just as astonished by her account of former president donald j. trump's increasingly apparent need to hold on to power. there were taped interviews beforehand. that's according to several officials, leaving them feeling blindsided. member of the january 6th committee, congresswoman lofren

responded. >> i'm surprised they had not subpoenaed ms. hutchinson. we interviewed her four times. i think that's publicly known at this point. >> yeah. >> the fourth interview was very compelling. it's obvious she is being intimidated. people are trying to discredit her. you know, i was surprised that the prosecutors were surprised. what are they doing over there? they have a much greater opportunity to enforce their subpoenas than our legislative committee does. >> we're also following news in doj's probe of the january 6th attack. nbc news has confirmed that two arizona state lawmakers who pushed former president donald trump's election lie were subpoenaed by the fbi. arizona senate president karen fann and state senator kelly townsend, both republicans, got identical subpoenas last week. a spokesperson for arizona senate republicans says they're

fully cooperating with the fbi and releasing emails and text messages before a deadline sometime later this week. those subpoenas were delivered the same day arizona house speaker rusty bowers testified before the house january 6th committee. he told the committee that trump and rudy giuliani, his personal attorney, pressed the state legislature to choose electors that would re-elect the former president, even after arizona's governor certified trump's loss. we've also got new sigs this morning that the former president could be losing his dominance over some circles of the gop. a growing number of republicans are making moves that could position themselves for a 2024 presidential primary bid. preparing themselves to potentially take on trump if he decides to run again. the list includes former trump appointees and allies. like south dakota governor kristi noem, trump's former u.n.

ambassador nikki haley. trump's former secretary of state mike pompeo. his former vice president, mike pence. as well as arkansas senator come tom cotton. the weariness of trump is brought into sharper focus amid revelations of the january 6th hearings. though many republicans are not watching the proceedings and are not likely to believe the committee's findings, the hearings are still creating unwelcome pressure, leading mega-donors to say anonymously they might back away from the former president. joining us now, white house reporter for the "washington post," tyler page. good morning. happy fourth to you. let's start there, with former president trump. a lot of conflicting signals in recent days. as outlined, there some s as outlined, thereeems to be more of a willingness from republicans to break a little, and some of them entertaining the idea of going forward with a

2024 campaign even if he jumps in. we've also had a flurry of reporting that trump is telling allies he is in and may declare his candidacy soon, really soon, far sooner than one normally does. even before the midterms. what's your assessment of what's going on? why is trump so eager to jump in the race? >> yeah, i think there's two factors, jonathan. great to be with you this morning. happy independence day. i think, you know, one of the factors is trump's record in gop nominaing contests. he's not been as dominant in choosing the winners of these contests throughout the country. some of his preferred candidates have won. some of them have not. i think it shows a potentially waning influence over gop rank and file members. his competitors, potential opponents, are definitely watching those contests with keen eyes and seeing whether or not the influence continues to wane. but in the bigger factor here is january 6th and the hearings, the public testimony we are hearing from his former aides and allies, sitting in front of

members of congress, detailing what is happening on january 6th or what happened on january 6th. i think it is opening a lot of fresh conversations about whether or not he is going to be able to overcome some of this testimony, some of what is going on. a lot of republicans are watching these hearings with an eye toward is this a space for me to jump in? at the same time, former president trump is also watching these hearings and, i think, weary about losing the edge he has with gop voters, and eager to jump back in, hold some of these traditional campaign rallies he relishes, and really speak directly to voters. i think it gives him also some potential legal and financial cover if he is officially declared a candidate. it could help in investigations not only here in washington but other states, as well, particularly in georgia, where they're looking into his potential meddle with the results there, as well. >> i think aides close to trump also think that it is one thing for another republican to jump in and declare a candidacy

before trump does, saying, hey, i'll stay in even if he jumps in. it is another matter if trump jumps in first and you flat out say, i'm challenging him. stay with us, tyler. i want your take on another story, as well. today marks ten days since the supreme court overturned roe v. wade, and, this morning, democrats are already plotting their next steps. tyler's paper, the "washington post," reported democrats want to force republicans to take uncomfortable votes on abortion rights to expose gop opposition and showcase democrats' own support for them. the "post" also reports that the biden administration and its officials are studying what else can be done through executive action. on "meet the press," health and human services secretary xavier becerra spoke about some of the challenges the administration faces when it comes to protecting abortion access. >> chuck, if you look at our laws and the way we administer them, when the supreme court

speaks, unless we're all going to say that the word of the supreme court will no longer have value, we have to heed the word of the supreme court. so we will, but we will continue to find every avenue possible to make sure women have access to the care they need, including abortion care. i think we're continuing to explore everything that's out there. the difficulty is that simply because it's an idea doesn't mean it can go out into practice. >> i looked at the list of things you guys are doing, and there's not much you can do. i looked, and it ispretty clear because you don't want to get outside of the law. what do you tell congressional democrats who feel the party isn't fighting enough? >> i'll say, give us ideas and ask them to please pass a law. they have it in their power, if they can find the votes, to actually codify the roe decision, which is what we need more than anything else. executive action, we will find

what with can and do what we can, but when you are stripped of a right, as the supreme court just did to every woman of child-bearing age, it is tough to overcome. it took 50 years for us to get as far as we did. now, we have to figure out how to do this. it will not be easy. >> tyler, you're a part of the team on the reporting there, democrats wanting to put republicans in these uncomfortable positions. beyond making it perhaps politically unpopular vote, is there any practical reason why democrats want to do that? also, speak a little bit about where the white house stands. there's a lot of pressure in the first days after the decision for president biden to do more. we finally heard from him last year, saying he would support a carveout in the filibuster to codify roe v. wade. not sure it is going anywhere. >> on capitol hill, there is divergent strategies from the house of representatives and the senate. in the house, there is eagerness from the democrats to put some of the republicans on the

record, to show that many of them oppose protecting some of these rights that were in the roe decision. they want to use this as a political strategy ahead of the midterms, to show the contrast between democrats and republicans on this. for the senate, there's some antsiness in the senate democratic caucus, about giving space for the more moderate republicans to break with the party and show some of them support protecting abortion rights, which could make it district for this contrast they're seeking to drive between democrats and republicans on the issue. we'll see how it plays out on the hill. from the white house, we heard from secretary becerra there. i think there is a growing frustration within the administration. there is outrage about the decision. but they knew this was coming and they spent weeks and months preparing for possible contingency plans. the real problem here is that they don't have a lot they can do. they're trying to underscore that while also showing some sort of action. but as becerra said there,

there's little the executive branch can do to fill in the gaps created by the supreme court decision. i think that is what is frustrating the white house, is that they're under a lot of pressure from the democratic party, from democratic voters, to do something, to fix this problem, and they can't really do that. that is the nature of the different branches of government. so i think we're going to continue to see some rhetoric from joe biden calling on the senate to act, as we saw, to eliminate the filibuster. jonathan, as you said, there are two senate democrats standing in the way of any progress on that front. so i think there is a general frustration, that they want to do something but they're limited in what they can do. >> tyler, lastly, briefly, the supreme court had a lot of decisions in the last week or so that many democrats found unpalatable, one limiting the epa being able to limit carbon emissions, seen as a blow to

combat climate change. in the wake of that, the president opened the door to more offshore drilling. give us a sense as to how big of a deal that is, obviously, as he combats rising energy costs. he's also staked his claim as a candidate and as a president to try to do more to protect the environment. >> yeah, this was a fraught week for the biden administration's climate agenda, as you outlined there. two policy decisions here that make it more complicated for biden and his efforts to meet his ambitious climate goals. on the drilling thing, that was a legal requirement that they had to put out this plan. in speaking with sources inside the white house and the administration, there is a lot of difficulty when it came to that. one, they're trying to appease a key senate vote on their agenda. senator joe manchin from west virginia, a democrat who is key to doing anything they want in the senate and has called for more drilling. at the same time, trying to reach their ambitious climate goals. i think the supreme court

decision was really demoralizing for this administration as they try to move forward with some regulation in that effort. >> the "washington post"'s tyler pager, we appreciate you spending this holiday morning with us. thanks, my friend. still ahead on "morning joe," the january 6th hearings are revealing just how many trump staffers thought the former president was unfit for office. we'll talk about what that could mean for trump's chances if he does decide to make another white house run in 2024. plus, the latest on the fight over the filibuster. president bide san says he supps calls to waive the filibuster for abortion rights, but not everyone in his party is on board. we're back in a minute. my asthma felt anything but normal. ♪♪ it was time for a nunormal with nucala. nucala is a once monthly add-on treatment for severe eosinophilic asthma that can mean less oral steroids. not for sudden breathing problems.

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republican governor of arkansas, hutchinson, says he won't support donald trump if he runs again in 2024. >> as you can see from the testimony on january 6th and subsequent to the election where he waslegality of it, the lawful transfer of party, yes, that was a threat to our democracy. that was a threat to our institutions of government. that's not the behavior we want to see in a responsible president. i would not be supporting him for 2024. he acted irresponsibly during the time he was at risk to the nation, absolutely. >> there are not many other republicans who have said the same. now, to be sure, there is some speculation that governor hutchinson himself might launch a 2024 presidential campaign. joining us now, we've got senior columnist for the kbt daily beast," matt lewis, and republican strategist and msnbc political analyst, susan del

percio. matt, in your latest for the "daily beast," you talk about how the january 6th committee is effectively using former administration officials and gop voices to show former president trump's actions. let's read a little of it. you say this. as the january 6th committee hearings progress, one thing has become painfully clear. many donald trump staff members think he should never again be within 10 miles of the white house. indeed, the remarkable thing about the january 6th committee is that, despite being controlled by democrats, the hearings have largely been narrated by a republican, representative liz cheney, with the most damning testimony being provided by people who worked for trump himself. to be sure, it's early. trump has been written off prematurely too many times for me to make that mistake again. but should this trend continue, the january 6th committee will deserve much of the credit. likewise, nancy pelosi and democrats deserve credit for letting cheney and republican rep adam kinzinger do most of

the talking. this time around, the public is watching bona fied republicans ask bonafide republicans who donald trump was. let's expand further on that point. certnly, republicans have been effective voices in the committee, but how are you seeing them move the needle with other republicans, some of whom aren't even watching these committee hearings? >> right. well, again, i give nancy pelosi and democrats credit for, you know, during the impeachment proceedings, i felt they should have let justin amash, for example, be a house manager. they didn't go that route. this time around, i think it's just much more effective. but you're right, a lot of people aren't watching. maybe they're not watching the entire hearing. they're hearing it secondhand. they're seeing it on twitter. i think that this is really accumulative thing. we have donald trump, his endorsements kind of falling

flat. we have ron desantis starting to edge him out in some of the early primary polling. you have the roe versus wade case which some people argue hurts donald trump. it is like, okay, donald, if you are a republican, mission accomplished. here's your gold watch. it is time for a younger republican with less baggage, someone like ron desantis. but i do think the most important part of this is the january 6th committee. i think it is a matter of accretion. republicans are not going to wake up one day and give us that, "i told you so" moment. they're not going to wake up and have this epiphany and disavow donald trump. it is never going to happen. i think what can happen and what is happening is that they're slowly beginning to move on, to conclude that he is a little too old and he's got a little bit too much baggage. i think the big winner is probably ron desantis. which, again, democrats are probably not the big winner.

i don't think liz cheney is the big winner, but i think donald trump is the loser. >> susan, there are two things that can be true at once here. there is no question that trump's standing among republicans has weakened, somewhat. also, he is still, by far, the most powerful republican. but it does seem like he has taken some dents here, particularly as matt points out from the committee. how do you analyze that with this chatter that trump is now considering jumping in and maybe doing so very early? aides have said to him, "you should wait until after the midterms. wait for january 2023," even for fundraiser purposes. he may announce later this summer. what does that tell you? >> he is desperate. he is trying to be relevant. if he is jumping in, no one else will be jumping ahead of him, except for maybe desantis. governor desantis is certainly the big winner in all this. the issue that donald trump is facing is, like you said, he is the most popular person in the republican party, but the

republican party wants to move on. given, frankly, the low approval ratings of joe biden, they think they can move on. they don't need donald trump to do it. let's face it, they never liked donald trump. they just needed donald trump to win. that's where they're moving forward from. hey, we can win without donald trump, too. we just want to win our primaries. now, primary season is almost over. donald trump seems almost irrelevant. maybe even puts a lot of candidates in the general election in a difficult spot. >> so, matt, obviously, the impact of the supreme court's decision on roe v. wade, you mentioned that donald trump, of course, played a role there, but it's seismic throughout the political landscape. it'll impact this year's midterm elections and puts a sharp focus on the current occupant of the oval office, joe biden. i was in the room in madrid last week when he said he'd support a carveout for the senate filibuster to codify roe v. wade. what's your assessment of that

step, and what could he be doing on abortion rights to satisfy his very disappointed and frustrated political base? >> well, i do think that this is what he is doing to satisfy his base. but i don't think it is -- i don't think it's a wise idea for a whole bunch of reasons. you know, first, obviously, i think joe biden was elected to restore normalcy and institutions and norms, and blowing up the filibuster, i think, is the opposite of that. i also think it'd be really counterproductive. so let's assume -- i don't think joe biden can do this, i think that's actually another sign of weakness. he's telegraphing he can't do something, it's not going to happen. but if he were to get his way, i think there would be two likely outcomes. the first would be a situation where america just oscillates back and forth on some really big fundamental laws and decisions. i think that'd be very unhealthy for this country. we've already got a lot of

problems. imagine the chaos and destabilization of being abortion be legal, illegal, then legal, illegal, back and forth at the federal level. i think that would be really very bad for the country. i also think democrats need to be careful. remember back in 2013, mitch mcconnell warned harry reid, if you nuke the filibuster, for most judicial appointments, you will regret it and probably sooner than you think. it was four years later that mcconnell then took it one step further and was able to confirm supreme court justices based on, i think, the permission structure harry reid had given him. so if democrats right now, with joe biden's recommendation, seize this opportunity to blow up the filibuster, what are they going to do when republicans win back the senate and possibly the presidency? i think maybe they should think so i understand why joe biden feels the need to do this, to

say this, for the base heading into the midterms, but i think it is a horrible idea for everybody, including democrats. >> that's certainly the dilemma democrats face, worried what could happen next, if republicans seize control, but what could be more important than voting rights or abortion rights? we were talking about the bind the democrats are in. what, in your estimation, should say, president biden but also chuck schumer and those on capitol hill, how should they navigate this? >> stop putting up votes you cannot win. when you lose vote, to the public, you look like a loser. i have been watching hispanic focus groups the past three months. every single time they say, yes, we like the policies of democrats, but they can't get anything done. at least donald trump was good on the economy. however you feel about that statement, that is the idea that is seeping through the general public right now. stop putting votes on.

you can't win on abortion or other issues. get the insulin vote done. pass legislation to cap insulin. that is tangible to deliver to the public. >> terrific conversation. we have to leave it there. susan del percio and matt lewis, thank you both. our next guest could have fled ukraine but didn't. the former president joined the fight against russia's invasion. petro poroshenko is our next next on "morning joe." or an intense burning sensation. what is this nightmare? it's how some people describe... shingles. a painful, blistering rash that could interrupt your life for weeks. forget social events and weekend getaways. if you've had chickenpox, the virus that causes shingles is already inside of you. if you're 50 years or older ask your doctor or pharmacist about shingles. i'm greg, i'm 68 years old.

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billion in security aid to ukraine. additionally, turkish customs authorities have detained a russian cargo ship allegedly carrying stolen ukrainian grain. that's according to reuters, citing ukraine's ambassador to turkey. in an interview with ukrainian television yesterday, the ambassador said the vessel was carrying about 7,000 tons of grain stolen from the russian-occupied port. according to reuters, the ship was anchored to shore with no obvious signs of movement aboard or by other vessels nearby. ukraine accused russian forces of stealing its grain since moscow's invasion began in late february, exacerbaing a food shortage throughout the world. the kremlin previously denied stealing any ukrainian grain. investigators are set to decide the fate of the ship in a meeting today. we're going to have more on this, including an interview with the former president of ukraine, when "morning joe" comes right back. back

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joining us now, the former president of ukraine, petro poroshenko. president poroshenko, thanks for being with us this morning. we detailed how the biden administration is going to be sending that much more military equipment to ukraine, but you're finding seems as if that might not be enough. as you're traveling europe, trying to purchase military vehicles for the forces there in your country, tell us about it. are your allies falling short in giving you what you need? >> let me congratulate the american people with your independence day and your example of a mature democracy. help us, ukrainians, shoulder to shoulder, to fight for freedom, for democracy, dictatorship, against autocracy. i think the leadership of the

american president, joe biden, congress, and people is helped us a lot. but weapons is never enough. and you are absolutely right, i just returned about five days ago i was away where there is severe fighting on the east of my country. yesterday, i was in italy where we bought the armed vehicle, the most modern made standard with the first ever supply sent to ukraine. next week, i hope, keep our fingers crossed, that the armed personal vehicle would be in the ukrainian armed forces, helping us to provide a counterattack. and your weapons, including the howitzer 777, the rocket launch system, artillery system,

drones, missiles, everything we needed in the air. because we have a great armed forces and i am proud that since 2014, me as the supreme commander in chief of ukrainian armed forces created this army together with your assistance, based on nato standard, with the training of nato instructors. now, we demonstrate the second biggest army in the world. we stop them from kyiv. today, we have a very severe fight on the eastern. now, war is different. now, war is the war of artillery, war of drones, war of missiles, war of modern rocket launch system. with that situation, definitely. russia has 10, 15, some parts of the front 20 full-tim times big we are. only the professionalism and strong motivation of ukraine can help us defend, help us to win.

>> yeah. we heard from president biden and other nato leaders last week saying they would support ukraine as long as it takes, in terms of sending military equipment. you just mentioned the fierce fighting there in the donbas. eastern ukraine. the russians are claiming they now control the luhansk region. they believe they the use it as a spot to jump off into the next region, continuing their attacks across the east. give us a sense, what do you know of where things stand right now in the donbas, mr. president? >> i have on my connection with the brigade, which is now on the east, and i definitely can confirm that in some part of the luhansk region, we still have the ukrainian troops. this is definitely not all of donbas under russia control. this is the propaganda machine. but i can confirm that the fighting is absolutely severe.

with that situation, i want to send a message, that we, 40 million ukrainians now, is part of the armed forces. definitely everyone fighting in their own place, but we are the same like we do in the beginning of the war. from this part, we fight against russian tanks just 5 kilometers from here. we 100%, i want to assure you we deliberate all of the ukraine, donbas, south region where my battalion, which i participated in, are. we definitely need more weapons, more ammunition. exactly what you proposed to us with the land lease act. we are absolutely interested in that, the same act be done by

all nato member states. same with the supply of the new anti-aircraft missiles, with the new radar system. we keep our fingers crossed that it should be also jet fighters, at least the old soviet style where we have the best pilot in the world. we want to control the sky because on the donbas, russia has, unfortunately, a very strong control on the sky which creates a headache for ukrainian forces. but we will fight for every single meter of ukrainian soil. >> certainly heavy losses being taken on both sides right now. former president of ukraine, petro poroshenko, thank you for being with us today. good luck continuing in your country's battle here. up next, we're going to have a conversation with historian jon meacham on this fourth of july holiday. how a divided nation can try to find common ground.

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welcome back to "morning joe." great to have you with us. pulitzer prize winning historian jon meacham with us. jon, i always love talking to you around the fourth of july. it seems over the past four or five years there's been so much going on that it's always important to have a reminder of who we are as a nation, where we've been, and how we're making our way toward being that more perfect union. i want to talk about what happened, though. a lot of people talking, obviously, over the past few days about cassidy hutchinson and her testimony. reminds me of something that you speak a great deal about. something that happened, i believe, on june the 1st, 1950, with a certain female senator from maine. tell us about what being an american, what being a patriot is really all about on this

fourth of july weekend. >> yeah, it was lincoln's birthday in 1950. joe mccarthy of wisconsin drew the short straw and went to speak to the wheeling, west virginia, women's republican gathering. believe me, wheeling, west virginia, is not where they sent the top tier folks of the republican party in 1950. there, mccarthy gave his famous speech that he had in his pocket the names of -- the number kept moving -- but circa 200 communists in the department of state. it sets off our second great red scare. the first in the late 19 teens and '20s. he began, really, the reign of terror that joe mccarthy was the author of in 1950. it was margaret chase smith of maine, republican senator, who gave the first great statement

against mccarthyism. it was early. february 12th to june 1st. she went to the floor, gave a speech entitled "the declaration of contents," which she said we can disagree about the goals of policy, but we should not question each other's motives. we cannot be un-american in that way. she only got six co-sponsors. mccarthy dismissed them as snow white and the six dwarves. four years later, the senate of the united states would side with smith. she was right. the majority that had decided to take an easier path, mccarthy seemed powerful, the press loved him, he understood how to manipulate it, and we had this four years of madness. dwight eisenhower, much argument about that, about what he did, but he actually took a dive during the 1952 campaign and

took out a section of his speech attacking mccarthy because they just didn't want to affront the base. huh, sounds pretty familiar, doesn't it? >> you know, eisenhower, one of my heros. when i was reading the great book on mccarthy. >> it was really hard to read because dwight eisenhower was a hero. he was going to win in wisconsin easily. he had a chance to criticize joe mccarthy, had a chance to criticize a man who had gone after and tried to wreck the career, wreck the life of his mentor. general marshall, and he refused to say a negative word about them. and like you said, actively, went into the speech, took out a part that would've condemned mccarthyism. just didn't have the courage to do it, just like so many people

haven't had the courage to across donald trump. but once again, you have a strong woman here, you have liz cheney, and again, margaret j smith. that reminds me, john, when i read history, it actually reminds me that we aren't so disconnected from our past. we like to think, we somehow, five years, 10 years ago, where the house yelling days. we have been through this before. you see the mccarthy own, like you said, he had the press in his pocket, he ruined lives, he wrecked careers, he caused people to commit suicide. and he gave the loyalty of the republican party for a very long time. the fever, though, eventually did break. >> it was for years. it was a long time. and what we are dealing with now is the fullest

manifestation of the darkest forces in american life. and those forces are perennial. they are far, far older than america. they started in the garden of eden. it's the will to power. the putting of your own ambition and appetite ahead of anything else. and one of the things we commemorate on july 4th is the founding of a nation, that however imperfect and however incomplete its realization of that ideal is, was founded on an ideal that all men are created equal and are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights. we have not always owned up to it, when main always will. but the moment you or i or anybody else would want to go back to that they are willing to admit to, are moments where

we expanded the definition of what it means to be an american. we expanded the meaning of that incredibly important sentence, written by thomas jefferson, and one of the great committees of all time. great committees like 20th- century military, not a huge category. john adams, thomas jefferson. livingston, sherman, they were on this little sub committee and they wrote this declaration. and it was meant to be read, it was a declaration to the world, trying to make its case that the united states should have some standing among the powers of the earth. and what we are dealing with now over the last six years in particular, is an inversion of what we should be. too many people have put the pursuit of power at the center of their political public facing being.

and the thing about america is that we are at our best when the strong do not exploit the week. the rule of law is about putting up a guard rail, because we are all fallen, frail and fallible. you grew up in southern baptist, i grew up in southern episcopalian, we know that we are sinful. and because democracy is the fullest manifestation of all of us, the country is going to be sinful, too. the reason you have the rule of law, the reason you have commandments is to try to do better. and if you don't ascend, if you don't agree to win by the rules or lose by the rules, then the entire enterprise collapses. i tell you this. if we break the united states

of america, we don't get it back. >> saved by grace, as you and i were taught in the church, and thank god because i will speak for myself, i know i need grace. i know in the country i love so much, it needs grace. let's talk about, what you have written about, thomas jefferson. as we grapple with the challenges of coming to terms with our history, we have this debate between those that are in the 1619 camp, those who are in the 1776 camp. it's so important that we are able to hold those two truths at the same time. it doesn't have to be an either/or. i was explaining this to a graduating class i spoke to a few weeks ago. thomas jefferson can both be a man who was considered deplorable by some standards, even in his own time, and also

be the man that wrote the words that have freed more people than any other political document in the history of humankind. isn't that our challenge as we look at all of our leaders and we judge them while understanding that two truths can be held in mind at the same time? so we don't just completely wipe away our history. >> absolutely. in 1619 and 1776 and 1865 and 1920 with the 19th amendment and 1944 with the landings at normandy, 1964 was the -- movement, 1955, the voting rights act, all these parts of a whole, and history, because it's human, is a couple of steps forward, a step or two back, and then you do it again. and there's nothing guaranteed about our success. there's nothing guaranteed about justice. but at every point, we know

what we should do. whether we do it or not is an entirely different question. and we should take no solace from the fact that it has worked out from the past. what we should take solace from is that human beings made it work out in the past. and they were not nobler or more perfect than we are. >> our friend david mccullough says no in the process this is how the pastors. they didn't know how it turned out, either. but what we can learn again and again, when we live into that sense that jeffersonian sense, as flawed and difficult as he was, we can create that more perfect union. a paragraph written by dugan

morris. >> i know she's going to miss that. he walked around with a peg leg because it was said he had jumped out a window when he was with another man's wife and the man showed up. these are not, you know, olympian figures. they are human. and the marvelous thing about the united states is that it is not just the powerful, but it's also those far from power who meet in this dialectic. and another quick point is, alina president obama loved and dr. thing about from theodore parker. it only bends if there are people like john lewis and rosa parks and those men on the beaches at normandy who insist that it's --. there's always going to be forces of action and forces of

stasis. and that's just what history is. and it's hard to remember that from day today, the tsunami of news that we all live in. but if you take just half a step back, you understand that it really is up to us. and i would argue that this fourth of july, as much as any in our history, certainly since the civil war, is one where we have to realize that patriotism isn't passive. it's an active state. this is a stress test for citizenship. >> so i tweeted a couple of days ago a question, i guess just because i was ready to be abused. the question, even with all of our flaws, why are you proud to be an american? that's a dangerous question to ask on twitter. got a lot of really positive responses. got some negative response from people who are deeply concerned with whether the country is. but here's one of my favorites

by joe reynolds. and he said, when you are some small person with your back against the wall, a natural disaster, political prisoner or pandemic, you don't say, maybe india will help us, or maybe china. you say, maybe america will help. we don't always live up to that, but we should. i loved that answer, because again, through all of our flaws, through all of our problems, this republic has said and freed more people than any country in history. and so, on this fourth of july weekend, i ask you, john, why are you proud to be an american? >> i'm proud to be a an american for the same reason i'm proud to be a human being. i know that i am capable of great evil and great shadow and great darkness, but i also know that there are days