>> good evening from new york. i am richard lui. police have now taken into custody that person of interest in today's mass shooting at a parade in highland park, illinois, that killed at least six people and wounded more than three dozen others. his name is robert bobby crimo iii, a age 22. according to authorities, he was taken to custody in lake forest, illinois, after a brief pursuit earlier. police also recovered a high powered rifle, who say believed to be the weapon he used at the shooting. that is the car that police say crimo was driving. you can see it here on this

live picture. this all started approximately at 10:14 am, central time. the shooter opened fire on the towns parade from a rooftop, along that route. and again, police say six people have been killed, and health officials report that at least two dozen, if not three dozen, were hurt. 25 with gunshot wounds in that total. let's go straight to shaquille brewster and as an msnbc correspondent there on the ground for us. and shaq, just the breaking news within the last 15 minutes that they have apprehended that person of interest. what else are we hearing? >> well, we are likely not gonna have any more updates from local law enforcement until tomorrow. but you heard this in the past couple of minutes there. we had that major update that person of interest was identified and, identified and captured. he is now in custody. just so you get a sense of where lake forest is. it's a town about 15 minutes from where i'm standing right now. i'm at the crime scene, about a

block away from where the person of interest, or the suspected shooter, opened fire earlier this morning, about 10:15 this morning. you still see the chairs behind me, the fourth of july decorations at this parade. but i'll tell you, even here, things are starting to loosen up a little bit more. some of the assisting law enforcement that we saw in this area have already started to pull out. there was an older lady wanted to check on her dog in the building right over my shoulder, who went inside, and the officer was able to escort her into her apartment, and take care of her business there. you're getting a sense that things are calming down a little bit with this person of interest now in custody. now, throughout the day, there's open questions over where this person was. we knew his identity. we knew what vehicle he was thriving. you mentioned, they identified that weapon, high powered rifle, as it was described, after the shooting. but it was a man hunt as far as we heard from law enforcement, but about 15 minutes from where the shooting took place, we now know that law enforcement identified and captured that person of interest. again, they're not calling him a suspect just yet, but they're calling him a person of interest.

now, in the update that we heard from law enforcement, just in the past 15 minutes or so, they also emphasized that people still have video, if they have any more information, they're still collecting that, but they will not have any update for us until at least tomorrow at this point, unless they say there's some major news that comes between then. >> shaq, we're looking at live pictures now from helicopter, and it appears they're going through the rear part of that honda car that they've been following. again, the car that was believed to be driven by the person of interest that they had given information out earlier, a silver honda fit 2010. and police went through the backseat, shaq, and perhaps the trunk in the back, in a red car, that's in front of it. no collusion appear to have happened as they are branded the person of interest. and what is of interest here, shaq, is they have not moved. and you made that point just a moment ago. they have not move this person

of interest, well bobby crimo into the category of suspect, and you're also noting that in the area that 6 to 9 blocks that they were in focus of, right? which you are standing right in the middle of, that they had been looking very closely for the person of interest, robert bobby crimo the third, 22 years old, 5'11, driving a honda fit that i was talking about, and they categorized him as armed and dangerous. here, again, another shot, live on the left-hand side of your screen, of course on law enforcement moving around the car that they apprehended that person of interest. have they loosened this area that you are standing in, given they have apprehended this person of interest? >> well, just in the past couple of minutes, i would describe it as some of the tension has eased just a bit. we've expanded the perimeter of giving us an excess that person

of interest was identified and located. but i think that image that you are looking at on the screen right now, that is at least the third active scene of investigation that we've seen throughout the day. of course, one being here, behind me where the shooting took place. the second was what we believed to be the childhood home of the person of interest, investigators were there a couple of hours ago, and they were scouring that scene. we didn't have confirmation on what exactly that scene was, but now, we know that was likely connected to this person of interest. and the third is what you are looking at right there with that vehicle, which was pulled over, and after a brief pursuit, according to law enforcement, after a brief pursuit, he was then captured, they say, without incident. so, i can't describe the scene beyond where i am right now. but from what i've seen now, things have not expanded, access has not been granted to us anymore than we have right now. i can tell you about a block away from where i stand right now, there is still a group of

investigators still on the scene. there is a lot of work that they have to do, and that's something that we heard from the chief when you get that update. there's still a lot of work they have to do, a lot of processing that they need to take place, that needs to take place. and i think a hint of that is the fact that he is still a person of interest, and perhaps, not a suspect, an official named suspect at this point. it hasn't been a named suspect, or anyone charged just yet. there's still a lot of work that they need to do, and a lot of work that needs to be happening -- >> so only hours in, about nine hours since this incident started, according to law enforcement timeline. and shaq, thank you for that geographic arc, because the three different locations, the second location, that's believed to be close to his childhood home. and how close is that to these other two locations, roughly, in terms of how it's relevant to a law enforcement, as they were going through this process? >> what's we're talking about, relatively all in the same area, all of the same community. i didn't get a chance to go

over there, we did have our affiliate reporters that were there. but we're talking about the same town here. lake forest, the neighboring town, for those who don't know this area, we are in the chicago suburbs. these are actively high-end suburbs of chicago, why towns, our affiliate, they had reporters who were here at the parade, enjoying the parade, who then saw what happened, and saw what took place. so, you get a sense, this is not the chicago downtown area, about 45 minutes to an hour outside of that, in the suburbs of chicago. but where these three active scenes, investigation seems, crime scenes, whatever you wanna call them, where these things are taking place, are all relatively the same area. i should also note, richard, that we are, we do know the fbi is assisting in this investigation. they were the ones who sent out that poster. they tweeted out that poster for a gathering more information for this person of interest, after local authorities named him. we do also know that the governor was here. he spoke. he talked about the idea of this being another tragedy. he said, if you're angry about the mass shooting, another mass

shooting in america, he said that he's curious about it. you get a sense, this is going to be something that we're gonna hear a lot from, we heard from the president about it, we heard from the vice president, who is actually scheduled to be in the chicago area tomorrow. that trip is still on this point. so we're gonna hear much more about this, as this investigation continues. but the big news in the past couple of minutes here is that the person of interest that was identified, and that we know let local law enforcement on a very active investigation, that person of interest has now been captured. and we will wait to see what more they have to say, come the morning. >> nbc shaquille brewster, about a block away from the crime scene where six individuals were killed at a july 4th parade, and on the left-hand side. thank you so much, shaq. on the left-hand side, you're seeing live pictures of the vehicle. that was the person of interest that's where he was apprehended, now in custody. we're watching life as law enforcement is going through. obviously, you're looking for evidence, maybe related to that

particular person of interest, becoming named. a suspect in the killing of the six everyday folks out of july 4th parade over three dozen injured, just about eight, nine hours ago. and this area, shaq was laying out, that geographic arc for us within a 15-minute distance of the crime scene. and also, the home of, childhood home of that person of interest, also within this 15-minute area. okay, we're gonna continue. watch these live pictures to see potentially with a lot forsman finds there. as we do that, let's bring in representative brad schneider who represents highland park. and congressman, thanks for being here. we appreciate you spending the time -- >> thank you. >> what have you been hearing, sir, in terms of the latest on this investigation, as highland park is your district? >> right, it's not just my district, it's my home. and this morning, as thousands

of people gathered as they do every 4th of july to celebrate our nation's birthday, the parade was shattered with the birth of gunfire. six people murdered, and dozens injured. our town is grieving tonight, still in shock, and angry about what's happening. i think there is relief. i know this, earlier i was at that command center, and this was identified, this individual was identified as a person of interest. it's a sigh of relief that he's been apprehended, and hopefully, tonight, people can breathe a little bit easier. everyone's been basically locked in their homes since 10:15 this morning. >> sir, how do you feel about the person of interest being from your neighborhood, potentially? >> well, i think everybody is shocked. what's happened today in highland park happened 308 times around the country. it's 308 mass shootings already this year.

no community expects this to happen, wants this to happen. and in particular, on a day like today, when families are gathered, it was a truck full of grandparents, parents, and grandchildren, standing together, celebrating independence day. and in a blink of an eye, families were devastated, broken apart. six people murdered, 24 people, at least 24 people wounded. and for the people who died, their families will never recover from what happened today. >> if you look at the pictures from the area where this all happened, the crime scene within itself here, representative, we're looking at buildings and a small town, downtown if you will, they're all basically single story buildings, a single lane going each way. and the suspect, however it is, potentially this person of interest, deciding to take a high powered rifle day at a rooftop, and just a bit at various corners of people

sitting and watching a july 4th right. and only, sir, only 15 or 20 minutes into that parade, describe just with this typically is like, if this did not all happen today, because i think when people try to put it all together, even, you know, eight or nine hours later, it's still flabbergasting. >> this is like just about any small town in america, a central area where people gather -- i have my office in the downtown area 30 years ago. i would take my kids to dairy queen for ice cream. this is a place where thursday night there were music concerts in the plaza. this is a community that comes together, stays together. the 4th of july, every year, people gather they start gathering and putting out their chairs, sometimes the night before, they start gathering the night in the morning, and waiting for the parade. the parade is not famous around the world, the parade is a

local high school band, it's the school groups and cheerleaders, the boy scouts, the girl scouts, it's the social service organizations that are improving the lives of the community. this is a community parade celebrating the fourth of july, america's independence, and the ideals about the nation were founded upon, and that was shattered today. and what happened in a highland park is happening in communities around the country. the country should be mad, we should be doing more to reduce gun violence in this country. 93% of americans support universal background checks, the house passed a universal background check bill in 2019, and again last year in 2021 -- we can do so much to keep our communities safe, to make sure kids are safe when they go to the school or the park, or to a movie. my hope is, as we did just a few weeks ago after you've all day in buffalo, the bipartisan safer communities act -- to improve gun safety, and reduce gun violence and make our communities safer for everybody. hopefully we can take further stepto improve safetand security for all americans.

>> for those who weren't, there are those who are joining us today representative, i was looking at videos throughout the past several hours. a video for this morning, it is a parade that typically has maybe one or two rows deep. and you are looking at, as you are describing, high school bands, local troops walking through the street. i was also listening to one of your constituents, who said one of their acquaintances, once they heard the shot ran to a dumpster, and you may have also heard the story that was aired, and he put his children into the dumpster to protect them, and told them that they are playing hide and seek to try to explain to them why they were being put into a dumpster for the better part of an hour. so congressman, if you still have a -- very interested in what you are telling your constituents today

and at this hour -- >> yes, i heard the story on the news, and my heart was broken. the stories i heard, it was a father with his kids who is looking for, i don't remember of his children and didn't know what to do. so just out of instinct put his children in the dumpster, and essentially the dumpster was safer than being outside as shots were being fired. there were many stories of heroism today. the first responders who reacted immediately and ran, to where people were shot save lives today. the support of law enforcement from around the area, public communities, as well as the federal authorities came together and really showed how working together, that we can get things done. grateful to know, my district

includes north chicago, north chicago police burial early identified the person of interest. he was captured in lake forest. these are communities that lean on each other, the rely on each other. again, the capital towns and communities that i represent are the towns like communities all across the country. celebrating the 4th of july, as everyone should be able to do with her family and our friends, confident that they can be together, and end the day together, and wake up tomorrow to continue their lives. unfortunately, today, too many families have lost loved ones. >> stay with me representative, the live pictures coming from the sky, as we look at the honda vehicle that was believed to be driven by the person of interest. again, if you're joining us just in the last 30 minutes, it's when we got the word from law of enforcement that a person of interest was apprehended and is in custody. that location in lake forest,

give us a sense of how the different areas do work together, law enforcement, the distance between highland park and lake forest, and how long it would take for him to actually drive there, this person of interest. >> it's not far at all, i know the quarter very well. from highland park, to high woods, like gloves, north of chicago. these are all communities that people go from one community to another to grab a bite of dinner or ice cream. they ride their bike along the bike trail next to these communities. the schools will play each other in sports, there's rivalries. everyone across lake county, across the tampa district this morning and today, and as the entire nation -- this is the 308 shooting this year. tragically, too many communities have suffered similar events to what we had today in highland park. today it's highland park that is shattered.

families that are grieving. a community that will come together, but it is going to take time to heal and recover. and i'm doing everything i can to help my community. we are strong, and we will get through this. >> representative, what do you know about the active shooter protocols that exist in highland park we are listening to law enforcement earlier saying they do practice going through these active shooter protocols. we learned earlier to officials from the hospital where they were taken in most of those were injured today. they were also describing how they go through an active shooter protocol, that they had to go through a lockdown. they also had to go through a bipass because they had somebody coming in. in fact, but they were saying is, potentially they were overwhelmed despite having these protocols in place. and with understanding, giving the sheer number. over 3 dozen, according to what we understand, those who were injured and hurt. because of this particular situation. >> you know, you can prepare all you want.

i went to the command center and i spoke to the police and fire chief and i said nothing can prepare you for what you experienced today. in a matter of seconds, six people were murdered, more than 24 people were injured. they took people to three different area hospitals. north shore and highland park, but also lake forest. northwestern hospital in evanston hospital down the road. because there is such a large number of people wounded and killed, you can prepare all you want. this was a mile or a mile and a half long parade. families standing together in crowds, it's because it's such a tight community you have so many people on the street. and one individual decided to cry to a rooftop with a high capacity, high caliber, high powered rifle and fired off dozens of shots, as many as 60. and tonight, six families are broken with the loss of a loved one. 24 families are at the hospital

praying for the recovery of those dear to them. >> congressman brad schneider from highland park, thank you sir. our hearts are with you, as well as with all the great and amazing first responders that helped in today's situation. thank you so much. >> thank, you we appreciate, it and we are grateful for the heroes and first responders. >> joining us now, via phone, msnbc news correspondent tom winter has been following all the developments in this case. tom, what are you hearing right now? >> sure, richard, this person who is in custody, robert e. crimo iii. ellis's bobby, born september 20th, 2000. 5:11, 120 pounds, a number of -- -- the person of interest potentially turn to suspect, or is someone charged with a crime. it's important to note he hasn't been charged with a crime.

but authorities believe he has some connection to the shooting earlier today that killed six and injured over two dozen, as you know, from highland park. so that's the initial information that we have on him, and some of that information is coming from an fbi bulletin that was shared with law enforcement. some of that is coming from police officials at a press briefing, and it's a several press briefings throughout the day, regularly almost on the hour, leading up to this arrest. as far as what we know about his background, having gone through his social media accounts, he was taken down by numerous social media platforms youtube, facebook, twitter, et cetera. there appears to be, and when i'm hearing from law enforcement, that there's any sort of ties to some foreign or domestic terrorist

organization. but does not appear to be some hate crime or biased part of this at this time. the highland park community a number of people pointed out early on in the shooting, has a significant amount of those for members of the jewish faith. we have no way indications at this point. it's early in this investigation, nobody is gone through, or presumably hasn't had a chance to go through his phone, or whatever it might have been on his person or maybe wherever he's most recently lived. no indication so far that it has any ties to those groups, as a hate crime. whatever the motive is, it obviously won't make sense of the rest of us why somebody could've done what they did today at this fourth of july day parade. but again, it's important to remember he has not yet officially a suspect, or somebody who has been charged. when will that happen? not depends on a couple of different things. authorities will presumably need to hold him if they think

it is him, if they think they have the evidence. if those things come to pass, then they could charge him locally. i don't know if there's gonna be any sort of federal crime here, just because the fbi was involved in assisting, doesn't mean the case will necessarily go federal. that's really a determination of, what are the best statues to apply? what can, or if, be applied to him, or if anything could be applied to him. that needs to be something we need to wait for, it might not be told late tonight or early tomorrow morning before we get that. that's what we know about this person. we do know that weapon was, quote, a high powered rifle, according to police. they stated that on the record. we don't know the specific model number, ammunition. typically, that's a euphemism for an ar-15 style rifle, but we just need to get some more clarification on that. and obviously, a big component of this is was that weapon purchased legally? but, if anything, is in his

past? from a criminal perspective, was there anything that would have disqualified him from having that got on his person prior to the shooting. not a lot of anything i just said is going to do a lot of good for the victims and the people that were impacted by this today. but those are the types of questions, richard, that we still have at this point. >> tom, practically, help us out. the difference between person of interest versus suspects, and with that might mean for the process the law enforcement is going through? >> great question, it means different things to different communities. in new york city, for instance, if somebody is a person of interest, up to the moment they've been charged. there's some technical parts of the law that, if the new york city police department to call somebody a suspect, there will be certain legal things that could happen at that point, and they are often reticent to do so until they get the person in custody and put it case together. it kind of depends on the community, and if they had

enough to charge him with an arrest warrant, or something along those lines, they would do that. but, it's been less than 12 hours, and shots were fired here. they are probably still putting together, and piecing together things, they're going to want to see what he had on his person in his car and, continue to piece together the evidence and see what it totals up to for the charges. i think given the police the response that we've seen so far, given their attentions. it would seem, in the fact of the description of the person's build, 5:11 and 120 pounds. that is someone who is extremely -- has no weight on them at all. that matches the small build description that we originally had from eyewitnesses at the scene. if, in fact, this is a person that is charged. i think, given the totality of law enforcement's response at this point, it would appear that they think they have their man.

and i think that, they're pretty much telegraphing to us that this is the person who they think did it. but, you know, where a lot of things in the press, but we did not charge people. we will see when they come out with, and what they say. >> shaq was also careful to say that in that area of interest, the 6-9 square block area around the crime scene, which was, at one point, it was a shelter in place region, a little rectangle. he did notice a little bit of. you are looking at the person of interest's social media footprint. any indication, and we ask these questions so often. ask read? writings of any length, indications of an understanding of motive? >> yeah, our colleague ben collins has been deep in a couple of different places on social media accounts. we have a whole team dedicated to that here. the initial indications from ben's reporting, and our

reporting, and what we are hearing from people who've been briefed on this investigation. is of is a lot of things that i think people are finding highly unusual. there is some posting of videos that seem to have some sort of ties is not the right word, but storm sort of a link to mass shootings that this person may have had a significant interest in mass shootings of some type, certainly with violence, of shooting at the people perhaps shooting themselves. i think violence is the key kind of underscore. but it is something that we need to do a little bit more reporting on. and of course, this person hasn't been charged with it. but that appears to be the theme of this -- we've seen at this stage.

>> tom winter, as always, thank you so much for all of the information you bring to us on this breaking news story. nbc news national investigative unit correspondent. thank you so much tom winter. if you are just joining us, we have just learned within the last 45 minutes that the person of interest in the mass shooting in highland park, illinois, was taken into custody, and is now with police and law enforcement. that happened within the last 45 minutes. six individuals killed over three dozen hurt. we will have more of this breaking news story, right here on msnbc right after this break. bc right after thi break. “shoot it?” suggests the scientists. so they shoot it. hmm... back to the miro board.

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the follow out from today's mass shooting in highland park, illinois, here on msnbc that left six people dead, and at least two dozen were injured. just coming to us right now, police have now taken a person of interest into custody, just within the last 45 minutes. the name here, robert e. crimo iii, age 22, and according to law enforcement, he was taken into custody, in lake forest, illinois, after a brief pursuit there. joining us now is illinois state senator, julie morrison. a democrat who represents the 29th state senate district, which includes highland park. state senator, thanks for joining us.

what have you been hearing from not law enforcement only, but as well as your constituents about with the latest developments are? >> i think for about nine hours, everyone was holding their breath. waiting for a suspect to be taken into custody. now, i think we're really starting to mourn, we lost six people from our community, and there are dozens who are in hospital tonight. now, we can really start to focus on the victims and the families, and the terrible loss that we experienced today. >> and state senator, what are some of the questions, as you've been speaking with your constituents, that you are hearing at this moment, because as you know, we have just learned within the last 45 minutes that a person of interest was taken into custody. not moved to a suspect, no charges were given as of yet, we have not heard word that

area of focus or interest around the crime scene has necessarily been released or removed. so, potentially, there still could be more developments, however, the indications at the moment do appear that they have found potentially, the person, the suspect that they may be naming, i suspect soon. of course, we have not heard that officially from law enforcement as of yet, so where are you add in that process? do you believe that the person of interest right now has therefore moved you into that period of mourning, that it is time, if you will, to move to the next step? >> you know, until it is official, i think that would be too early. what's the striking moment for me has been, you see, all the police, all law enforcement, from the county, from the fbi, from the state police, from all the municipalities, they kind of link arms. and all of this training, all of this equipment, all of these protocols that we never thought

would have to put in place are being used. and that's the reason that this man was apprehended as quickly as he was. i think a lot of people commented on the fact that there was an active shooter in the downtown area. and the police and the fire departments, and the paramedics, rushed into that open area, where people had just been shot. i've never seen anything like that. the bravery and the commitment these men and women have, it is really, truly amazing. we are so grateful that they were here today in highland park to help. >> yeah, and if you're watching the video from earlier today, state senator, you will see during the shots that have been fired, which are quite alarming by any measure, that you saw the yellow jackets, right? those who were there to secure the area, walking and biking calmly, trying to move to the

next step, during the shots, while others were running. and they were trying to, as you look at the video from earlier today, trying to secure and understand where that shooter, that active shooter was at. you see some of them here in this video right now. over 100 law en, at one point, we're down there in a matter of minutes, 50 to 6 -- 50 as well to try to find the active shooter. so, when you talk about moving quickly, it certainly does appear that law enforcement in highland park and in all of the partner organizations were moving with all wheels, definitely synchronized. >> absolutely, absolutely. and unfortunately, the training was put to use this afternoon. i was in a parade, just entered the parade line as the shooting

began. i was with my family all volunteers and friends who are walking alongside the car. and you just never, it never is normal. it is -- we unfortunately have become a little bit used to hearing about mass shootings. but when it's in your community, and it's your family and friends, and your neighboors, that are at risk, direct risk, we are now joining the thousands and thousands of other peopleacross the country, who have gone through th have lived with gun violence, and now, it has a new meaning for me. >> illinois state senator, julie morrison, thank you so much. we definitely appreciate your time today. i want to now bring in ben collins, nbc news reporter, focusing on online extremism. and i know you've been digging in, as tom winter was talking about. you've probably been talking all the day together, digging into this story, as we try to

understand more about the online activity of this person of interest. and i know you've got some new information for us, ben? >> that's correct. bobby crimo on the internet, went by a rapper named awake. and in those new music videos that he put out under that name, it was pretty much just graphic depictions of mass violence, school shootings, or him getting murdered by the police after, in cartoon form, after a shooting that he perpetrated in these videos. and that was basically has a static. a discord form, where people hopped on, and rooted him on four things. you know, most recently, before the shooting, the last post in the politics section of that discord forum was a picture of a bucked wire, a famously bought, a politician who famously killed himself on live tv. so, it's the sort of a static of mass that you saw on these

forms. it was this fetishization of mass death that you saw constantly from his posts and music videos. >> it's tough to tell, ben, but do you get a sense of what was driving this person of interest. what was driving crimo to violence? what were the reasons why? >> well, this is very difficult to say, because you don't wanna egg it on. but there is a community of people on the internet who are obsessed with mass death. and people who fetishes mass killers, this has been happening since basically columbine, but has accelerated in the age of social media and the internet. and you see a lot, in places like that extremist forums where they have developed entire personalities based around the concept of killing people. they view it as like a scoreboard, the amount of deaths you can accrue in a mass killing. they talk about that afterwards as well. some of these forums talk about, they compare mass killers to

previous mass killers, and say, he didn't do as well as this guy, something like that. that's part of the community that he was appealing to in these spaces. and you could see a lot, not just in his music videos, but in his posts across the internet. he was in other message boards, on the internet, that were literally just host of people being beheaded, or people being killed. he was a power user on those forums. it's basically a cult of death in these extremist forums. >> ben, kind of like a thick balance of a push pull understanding of why this crime, potentially happen today, if this person of interest becomes charged in the end. and you've been describing what may have pulled him into this space, perhaps, a lot of violence that you've been describing. also, maybe, a sense of fame, on the pole side, and then on the push side, was he angry at angry thing? was he upset with certain ideas

that may be on the push signed? >> that's a good question. you know, he -- i don't place this in political leanings. he had a couple of times posted about donald trump. once he was outside of his motorcade, after donald trump landed for an event. and at another time, it was posted with a trump flag draped around him. he posted that on his twitter account. but i do want to say that the irony of these boards is just as important as -- so whether he believes, whether he was functionally a donald trump fan or not, you can't tell by two posts. you really cannot. but you can tell, this guy was obsessed with mass murder. whether he was pushed that way from a politician or not, i'm not sure. but i can tell you, it was pushed that way from a community of people on the internet, who are more effectively his fans. and telling him to accelerate it. >> one of the things that you probably heard many times from tim kavanaugh, our analyst over here on msnbc and nbc news, he

often uses the word loner. would you describe, based on the posting of this person of interest that this person of interest was a loner, and felt that others didn't except this individual? >> richard, you know, you could call these people loners, but at some point, there's a lot of these loners. and they are no longer loners. if there are going to the same boards, if they're all self referential, if they talk about the other shooters, if they talk about the, you know, what it looks like as arts, to do these things, before they do it. these videos were posted in january. this is not a recent phenomenon from this person. you know, if they have entire communities that talk about these music videos, and you know, people who know the references they're talking about when these things happen, this isn't a situation where there are loners. this is a situation where these people are operating, and functioning like a terrorist cell, committing these murders for the sake of internet fame. even if they're not alive to see it. >> you have been digging deep

into his online platform, in addition to that, were there any indications, based on the artwork, that he had exhibited through tattoos, that often might give us a hint as to who he might be as an individual? >> i think it's probably too early to say for that. you don't see any swastikas or anything like that on him. no traditional neo-nazi bearings, that i've seen so far. however, you can exist as a person who wants to murder people on the internet, with a completely different form of artistic framework, i guess. that's what this guy was going to. there is effectively, a mass shooter style esthetic that he was trying to replicate in these videos. and whether that's tied to white supremacy something we'll figure out over the next few days. but that's what you see constantly in these spaces,

people referencing those other people. so, it's a new kind of thing. like i said, it's like a cult of death out there. they constantly talk about the prior mass shootings on here. and i don't think this is any different. >> in your beat and expertise of online extremism, how does this person of interest either stand out or not stand out, compared to other individuals that we've had unfortunately had to try to understand and characterize, in recent months and years? >> well, i think, most interesting part of this is that he was sort of known on these online spaces. he had little biographies written about himself. tens of thousands of views on youtube before all this happened. he was sort of known in these far-right mass shooting spaces on the internet. that's the difference. previously, other people were aspiring to get into that space. and this guy was already making really terrible, by the way, art and rap about this sort of thing.

he was already in there, so that's the big difference. you know, the uvalde shooter for example, that was not the case. these are not known people. they are pathetic people in general who go and shoot up a school, or they shoot up a supermarket, or something. and they are seeking a claim. this guy was, i want to say if he was appealing to fans fulfilling his own, what his music video has shown, but that's the difference. this time, it sort of happened in reverse. he was saying he was going to do this through his foreign for a very long time. >> i know we got a lot to go. how long we talk about months, years here, then that we've had this track record? >> years, definitely years. what's weird is they went largely silent a lot of these forums, you know, traditional forms like twitter and youtube since basically, january. it's not clear what he was

doing since then, but he was still, you know, lingering around a couple of other forums in more anonymous spaces. >> great information there. nbc's ben collins who focuses on online extremism with a lot of detail to some of the questions that people are trying to understand about this person of interest, now about nine or ten hours since the crime had happened. thank you so much, ben collins. we'll stay on top of this breaking news story again. the person of interest in the mass shooting killing six people in highland park, illinois. we just learned that an hour ago. now, we're trying to understand more about what might be in for law enforcement with this person of interest or more. stay with us right here on msnbc. a short break. and forms an antibacterial shield. try parodontax active gum health mouthwash.

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high powered rifles from a top the fourth floor of a building. it's just too much. it's too much, and something has to change. >> that was doctor david bomb, an eye witness in today's mass shooting in highland park, illinois, which left six dead and at least two dozen or more injured. articulating what many of us are feeling today. something has got to change. joining us right now, jim kavanaugh, retired atf special agent, in charge and msnbc terrorism analyst, and carmen best, -- who served a 28 year career in law enforcement. let's start with you on this, carmen, the latest information that we have, one hour ago, we learned that the person of interest was taken into custody. still staying a person of interest, and as tom in winter was laid out for, us for certain purposes and in the process moving forward before charges, what are your thoughts about where we are at? >> well, like most of the rest

of america, i am breathing a sigh of relief that this person is in custody now. still identified as a person of interest, as law enforcement continues to gather more evidence, interview or interrogate, if you will, the subject, to place him at the scene for charging purposes and whatnot. breathing a sigh of relief after this very horrible and tragic incident occurred. now that this person of interest is in custody, the investigation will continue. we can focus, now, not only on this, but on the victims. mourn the loss of those who died at the hands of of the perpetrator. and also really try to come back together as a community after this horrific incident. >> jim, you were on air when we heard from law enforcement,

that indeed they had apprehended this person of interest, and they had that particular vehicle, in an intersection about 15 minutes outside of the crime scene. they were surrounding it, and watching some of the video together as they were going to the back seat and probably the trunk. it did not appear to necessarily be a beehive of activity, but they were certainly going through it. still, though, they were saying, no more press briefings today. is this the person that was, some surety they expected charges some point? where is there a possibility there could be others that they are following right now? >> i think there are laser focused on this guy, richard, and what they are doing tonight is they're trying to see, if the forensic evidence will match him. in criminal investigation, we have the theory of transfer, everybody is familiar with csi shows, but you have to link someone to the crime. and the way the killer will be

linked to this crime is, dna on the butt stop of the gun from is sweating face and hands, it's hot on the 4th of july, fingerprint evidence, the trace of the gun, and or a confession. one of those four ways, or cell phone location as well. video cameras. but one of those ways, or combination of those ways would link him to the scene, and then give the probable cause. but richard, if i might, you had such a great discussion with ben collins. i wanted to make a point to build on your discussion with him about these guys who, have a fetish over mass killings. in the usa today, they just reported, i want to get these reporters names right because it's a very good reporting. trevor hughes and grace howick of usa today, they just reported a piece saying that -- a significant amount of evidence led police to the person of interest. then in the article they say this. it was impactful to me, because when i first heard about the killer leaving the rifle at the

scene, the first thing i thought of was lee harvey oswald. you know, i used to be the assistant agent in charge in dallas, just blocks in the rip depository. i thought about that immediately, because oswald left the rifle, he was shooting at a slow-moving motorcade going 11 mph from a high position. usa today reports report on this within the last hours. a video posted by this person of interest, on his website, showed a cartoon character carrying a rifle, laying down with a face of blood, surrounded by police. he also appeared to post a picture of a newspaper could be not as, well referencing the death of lee harvey oswald, who assassinated john f. kennedy with a rifle from an elevated position. i would point, out and they didn't point out here, that he left the rifle there. and oswald's prints were all over that rifle. so, this guy is fantasizing over this kind of a murder, with this on his wall, about

that kind of a series of events, and he is the guy in police custody. it's just a picture into the mind of a killer. if he turns out to be the killer, he could still be eliminated as the chief knows, a lot of times we've had people come in on him on many of these big cases. i've had them come in and confess that they made the bomb and killed the guy, and of course we have to prove they didn't do it. i don't think the last door has closed here. but they certainly feel strongly that he is somebody that they might be able to link to this. they're trying to do that and eliminate him. i think the next thing we will hear, if he turns out to be the killer, will be a warrant. one last comment, richard. i looked at pictures of him closely on the web, he has a 47 tattooed on his tech temple, the number 47. often with gang members, that means an ak-47. could mean something else, it could mean he's from 47 street, of course. but a lot of gang members will

tattoo that 47, or an ak-47, and this rifle may have been a --, of an ak-47. it's just an interesting, fact is tattooed on his temple, so it may mean something to him. < >> right, we are very aware that it could be an ak-47, but we are not sure if it is an ak-47, according to law enforcement. carmen, what do you make about what was said there by? jim >> yeah, well jim is always definitely on point. there is no surprise that there's a fixation or proclivity towards violence, those described earlier. we see this often in these cases, many months sometimes years with the progression towards finally doing some horrible violent acts. i will also say that typically people are aware of the movement towards this fixation on violence it would've been great if there had been some intervention before an incident

like today happens. again, it's not a surprise, i think this is pretty common, particularly in this demographic of young white males under the age of 20, or in their 20s with the proclivity towards violence, or fixation on violence. ultimately, committing some sort of violent act like this. >> carmen best, jim kavanaugh, thank you so much for your help withll this right now. do stick around, we've got another hour coming up. this is much more, behind the story. we are only about an hour in says we learned that the person of interest is in custody, no charges as of yet, no suspects named as of, yet but a person of interest taken into custody, we'll have more of msnbc's live coverage of the mass shooting at a fourth of july parade in illinois. we will continue right after the short break. the short break.

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now in custody. here is the moment that officials broke that news. >> what i can tell you at this moment, it was approximately 15 minutes ago, the subject you are looking for, the person of interest, robert e. crimo iii, was spotted by a north chicago police unit at buckley and 41. his vehicle, the vehicle we are looking for, he initiated -- attempted to initiate a traffic stop, and that subject did flee. a brief pursuit was -- went on. ultimately, they were able to get the subject stopped at leslie and 41 in lake forest. the fact is he was taken into custody without incident. >> now, the arrest of the suspect came after a massive hours-long manhunt across the chicago area that left communities on it. you can see the car that the suspect was driving right here, just moments after his long enforcement was trying to find yet more potential evidence to find out if this person of interest was indeed the suspect, a person they could charge. i want to play you some

disturbing video, taking back the moments we believe the shooting began. you're gonna hear the gunshots and see people fleeing in this. take a look. >> [noise] [noise] >> traumatizing for the people that were there. retraumatized in folks that have maybe seen it already, as we just listened through that entire video again. police saying six people have been killed, and health officials report that at least 26 were hospitalized.

25 with gunshot wounds, ranging in age from 8 to 85. joining us now, msnbc correspondent, shaq brewster, who is just feet away from the crime scene. and shaq, what are you hearing there right now? >> it's the thing to see behind me, i'll tell you, investigators are about a block behind me, there is still there. they're still scouring the scene, still taking pictures. you see, the fourth of july decorations behind me. you say the flowers, the flags, all lined up and left from when people fled the scene as those gunshots took place. and something that i'm noticing in this area, you have members of the community, people who work here, people who live here, trying to come back and get access to it, and to give you the sense of how active the investigation is right now. law enforcement are not letting them beyond this police line that you see behind me. so, things are still pretty much active. and that's when we heard from

the chief, even when he came out and gave that big news just over an hour ago. yes, the person of interest is in custody. they're not calling him a suspect. he has not been charged. but the person of interest is in custody. you heard a little bit of the sound a couple of minutes ago of how that came to be. that scene, about 15 minutes away from where we are, a town 15 minutes away from where we are right now, after a brief pursuit that person of interest taken into custody. we also know that there were law enforcement agencies and investigators at what we believe to be the childhood home of that person of interest. and then, there is the scene that we have here. so, things are very active. investigators say we heard from the chief. he said he's encouraged they have the person of interest, but he said they have a lot of work to do. there is a lot of video from this parade that people were out here celebrating and enjoying before those shots rang out. there is a surveillance video from many of the businesses that were lined up along this street. and then, there's the articles, the strollers, the chairs, the toys that are lined up along this road. so, investigators and authorities have a lot of work to do, but the big headline that we got just over an hour

ago is the person of interest, the person you're just looking at on the screen there, not a suspect yet, but that person is now in custody. >> and shaq, overview in the locations which you know well, being from that area, tell us about the location you are at, which you just described. also, where the person of interest, his childhood home was at, and then, where he was apprehended? >> well, we are talking about it put pretty small radius on where this happened. we are in highland park right now, north of chicago, maybe about 45 minutes to an hour, depending on traffic from downtown chicago. it's a wealthier suburbs of chicago. and then, the suspect's home in is in this area. we do know that that's where there was a very active scene there. we saw that seen take place, actually before this person of interest. i said suspect, but a person of interest was captured. we saw that scene at his home. and then, lake forest, where he was actually captured, again, just about 15 minutes from where i'm standing right now.

so, this is a very small radius. we do know it's not just the highland park police department, the county and the state involved, but we also know that the federal bureau of investigation, the fbi, is assisting in this investigation. they assisted in the man on the 20 on for several hours after those shots rang out. and you know, one other point i should make here is that when folks were coming in, and talking to us about their community, one thing that i've heard more than once, and not just to me, is tell people about how this community normally is. they feel like this is a peaceful community. it's a quite community. people come here, enjoy their fourth of july celebrations. it was a parade, after all. you are seeing some of the videos, you are seeing the marching band just go by before those shots rang out. and this is something that's not just impacting highland park, but many of the neighboring communities. many of the neighboring towns have canceled their operates, or have canceled their fireworks celebrations, out of an abundance of caution. when you listen to what officials in those different

jurisdictions, different jurisdictions have to say. so, this is not something that's just impacting a small town here. this is not the city of the chicago, this is not something that just impacting a small town but it's having an impact really across and throughout this entire region. >> yeah, it was their tradition. give us a context of the time you saw, when you first got on scene here, shaq, and what you're seeing right now. and also, the amount of law enforcement. i know at a certain point, even five, six hours in, they still had a lot enforcement on rooftops, as in the safe area that they were looking at, this focus area. give us something about this arc of time? >> lock for summit on rooftops. we also saw many armored vehicles, swat vehicles here in this area. as the man hunt was happening. the shooting happened about 10:15 this morning. in the immediate aftermath, that's where you had chaos. people rushing to hospitals. we heard stories of nurses, doctors who are in,

participating, watching the parade, spring into action. people went to the hospital immediately, without being called in. a volunteer, crushing in to assist the trauma and the influx of patients that they were experiencing. and that happened in the immediate hours after the shooting. and then, we heard from local law enforcement that the suspect here, although they retweet what they described as a high caliber weapon, that the suspect, or the person of interest, the apparent shooter, they, that person was not in custody for several hours. so, we knew there was a man hunt. there was a perimeter that was established in the immediate area, the immediate vicinity of this shooting. people were told to shelter in place. that happened for several hours after the shooting, and then, we got the news about an hour ago. and you did feel things start to lift a little bit. some tensions starting to ease. i saw a number of the local law enforcement and -- this is just an example, they're bringing some floodlights behind me. this is just law enforcement officers there, just give you a sense of what it's going to be done here throughout the night.

they have a lot of material to process during this parade scene. we got the news about an hour ago that the person of interest is in custody. even when we got that news, so we've got a warning, some of the warning according to the chief, that the work is not done. they say it's good news, it's positive news, they're happy they caught this person of interest. but they still have a lot of work to do. you see some of the scenes still behind me, a lot of work, and even as i'm reporting, people coming up to the officers behind me, asking when they can retrieve their items and when they can go and. richard, i think maybe i'm gonna make one other point. you heard from local politicians, local elected leaders, you heard from the governor who said, hey, if you are angry about another mass shooting in america, he president, vice president in washington, d. c., talk about this. one thing that we know is vice president kamala harris is

actually scheduled to be in the chicago area tomorrow, as far as we know from the white house that trip is still on. she reference that she's still going to be in the chicago area tomorrow, so i think that trip is still happening. it will be an open question of whether or not she visits highland park, but this is something that, again, it's not just getting the attention of this small community here, but it's getting the attention of folks and chicago, throughout the state of illinois, and really all across the country. >> on cue for nbc, shaq brewster there in highland park, the lights coming right in, as we were saying, lots of work to do tonight. shaq, thanks so much for that. let's go to jim kavanaugh, retired aft special agent and in charge now of msnbc terrorism. he let us -- and former u.s. attorney who prosecuted gun crimes. jim, let's start with you very quickly, just because we were watching, as the light trucks were coming in. and as shaq was reporting for us, it tells us a lot about what the next stage might be,

as shaq was saying, they're telling him, lots of work tonight. >> well, that's right. everything is gonna slow down right now, really, really slow down. gather that evidence, interviewing these persons of interest, making sure they issue those warnings, there is an attorney if he desires before he's interviewed. the physical evidence being tried to match to him. and everything slows down. when i was in the command post, on some cases like this, this is what i would find guys like harry, the u.s. attorney, and if i didn't have a close enough helper already, i'd be there hugging him right now, because the killer's been captured. or the one we think the color. and it's harry and his guys, the da and his guys, they're gonna have to prosecute this case. and so, we have to move forward, you know, like we are dancing in step-by-step, we never can miss a beat. so, the prosecutors, they've been there all along. the prosecutors, you've got to have them there from the beginning. but now, the person is in custody. sometimes, they kill themselves, police kill the suspect, or something. there is no prosecution.

but now, there is the prosecution. and it's got to really go in this very slow dance, this methodical place where all the legal constitution requirements are followed. this guy needs to be represented by an attorney. he needs to have all his rights, and the evidence needs to be presented in a court of law. so, it's gonna be a change now, a big change in the face of the investigation. and it's gonna switch over more toward, you know, if he is the guy, towards the prosecution, so -- >> harry, thanks for being here. and to jim's point right now. this person of interest is not the person of interest, what does that tell you? >> well look, that tells me -- as they have been all the way through, somewhat safe and methodical. i think, given the circumstances of his apprehension. it's a pretty good operating assumption that he is the

shooter, and exactly as jim says, we moved that from an interdiction footing, to a prosecutorial footing. we make sure that evidence is all collected in accordance with legal requirements. we make sure that he is questioned, and everything is on the up and up, so it will take place within a court of law. a very big thing that happens now is the potential discussing, and potential skirmish between state and federal authorities. whose case is this going to be? the evidence that comes out over the next several hours may have a lot to say about that. if it turns out to be a hate crime, there are special federal statutes and imprints. if it turns out to be a more or less arbitrary suiting. then maybe this state takes the lead. but the state police in the fbi are already involved, and they are now ready to move to the

very different sort of protocol, one foot in front of the other that you do when you are making sure that a prosecution can occur without any compromise. >> we heard from ben collins here on nbc which focuses on online extremism. you may have heard him report a little bit earlier, but this particular person of interest has had years of posting online, this fantasy or glorification of killing, of mass killing, and as earlier, jim was talking about, according to the usa today he had also glorified lee harvey oswald with a gun and leaving the gun behind. what is your take on all of that, in terms of the case itself? >> i am sad to say that i am not surprised. the first thing that i thought would happen, when they identify someone, through social media, and it was likely to be a treasure trove. in terms of evidentiary and prosecutorial significance, the question will be whether it

makes out the kind of motive of a hate crime, that specifically sounds under federal law. and a lot going forward will depend on that call. i haven't seen that social media evidence yet. but as i said a few hours ago, i thought it was likely once they apprehend him, there is going to be a wealth of it. and that is going to play a major part in the eventual prosecution. one other point, jim mentioned it to. it is fortunate, in many ways, that he was taken alive here. -- 50/50 that it wasn't going to occur that way. so now it terms to a serious, step-by-step methodical construction. starting, with by the way, a critical component of him being apprehended, that will probably be presented within 12 hours.

>> jim, harry brings up the question i was also curious about. because of, again reporting going back to ben. the way that he had glorified going, out if you, will with a big bang. in this case, he seems to have stopped short right at the intersection, not interfacing it with what appeared to be a red undercover on enforcement vehicle. but stopping right there and then was apprehended again, not injured, not killed, and as harry was saying he is still alive. but does that tell you about this particular person of interest? >> he's really scared, and he's a coward, and he doesn't live up to his online persona. i saw some of his posts, and i agree with everything harry, they have, about if there was a hate crime -- it could be a federal crime. but it looks like here, to me, is more of the murder fetish, that you discussed earlier, richard, and that would be a power motive. a power over humans, a power over society, a power to cause mass death.

that is not a federal jurisdiction, this would throw it into a sick state homicide charges, and 20 aggravated assaults. if it turned out his writings were, you know, based on religion, race, or sexual orientation or something, and it could be federal. or if it's terrorism, it could be federal. i think it's leaning more towards the power of mass murder finish, his postings towards the power of mass murder finish, his postings and writings, and the things he had. you know, also, i thought you had a great discussion with been about whether these guys are learners or not. it's interesting because, ben was right, he's totally, right as we always is he such a great reporter. these guys have an online community, but they live in that. it's not a real community, so a guy can be a loner yet supported by these digital friends. so when we, say he is a.

he's alone physically, he probably doesn't even have any friends. he's a marginalized person, living in a basement posting pictures of his rifle in his helmet, i'm crazy stuff like this, cartoons of shooting people. and he has a digital family of other people who glorify mass murder, and want to look at columbine. and want to look at liu harvey oswald. it can exist together, this evil digital group. but you're really a human living human being going down the street by yourself, you have no friends, you don't need anybody, you're sort of by yourself. this is a kind of type we see with these guys, so i think you kind of have both things going on. and then they act out, and it's like a mad dog you know? this is the way that al-qaeda has recruited people like this, who are susceptible to that online digital recruiting of white nationalists, who have done it, you get that guy who

feels alone, feels marginalized feels weak, and he grabs on to that certain community, and in this case maybe people with a murder fetish, any kind of lives in there and unfortunately he acts it out. so that is what we may be dealing with and like harry said i think we may see a warrant tonight certainly by the morning. i think it is probably going to be state murder warrants that's my guess if the friends out to match the gun the dna, the fingerprints the gun trace, maybe a confession. i think that is probably what's going to happen, but we can't say for sure. >> yeah harry, on this idea of community that he was in, and he had so many conversations. he was very public. he was known as a rapper awake, as ben was telling us. compare and contrast illinois versus federal, and what might be the potential outcomes if the individual is charged in the end. >> let me start with this second point first.

if it what jim says pans out, and there's likely to be a strong push to keep him stateside. these are very professional prosecutors, and investigators, and agents. and frontline prosecutors, so the case will be well handled. how does it play out? there's a certain pathos in points to these figures. you don't feel that way, because they're acting so heinously, but it would not be by any means a first rampage killer who lived a life of sort of quiet desperation, whose neighbor said, well, he never really talked much, et cetera, there's a sense of impotence among these guys that is some what, for them, ameliorated by their tough talking online. when he asked to say online, state or federal, it's going to be really important for the prosecution, wherever it occurs. >> all right, harry litman, jim cavanaugh, standby, great stuff. thank you so much for helping us understand where we are at,

what we might see in the coming hours, or the next 12 hours. ben collins, as we were talking about, nbc's correspondent, who focuses on online extremism, which whom we've been invoking for the last 15 minutes. also joining us, right after a short break. >> this morning at 10:14, our community was terrorized by an act of violence that has shaken us to our core. our hearts go out to the families of the victims during this devastating time. on a day that we came together to celebrate community and freedom, we are instead mourning the loss, the tragic loss of life and struggling with the terror that was brought upon us. r that was brought upon us.

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any normal family, just trying to enjoy the parade. and all of a sudden, we just heard a bunch of like shooting, and everybody started hill running and yelling. and you know, i was just, it was a scary thing. i got separated from him. and i ran with my daughter. she was scared. i was trying to find a place to hide with her. i was scared for, you know, my children. and it was just crazy

experience, you know, you don't, you don't expect it. it's highland park, and nowadays, we don't feel safe now anywhere. >> and we are back with the breaking news coverage on the mass shooting in highland park, illinois. at the bottom of the hour, the latest person of interest, now in custody. nbc news reporter ben collins joins us. he's been tracing the trail of violent imagery left on line by the person of interest. jim kavanaugh, harry litman, as promised, also still with us. ben, we were going through all of the pieces of information that you are giving to us, after you went through a lot of what was left on line by this person of interest. and one of the questions that comes out throughout all of this is what can they do, when it goes to a person like harry litman, like, what is usable there, and what stands out, based on what you've seen? >> that's a really good

question, in terms of prosecuting this person. i will say that this person's obsession with death goes back years, mass death and mass murder. you know, the most recent music video he made was about getting shot by the cops, after you know, committing a school shooting. this is a very uncomplicated ideology this man has in support of mass death. he was also on these message boards that were constantly posting videos of beheadings and murder and things like that as well. this was a guy who was extremely built in to an online hemisphere that was totally focused on killing people. so that, i'm sure this will come up when this comes down to prosecution. >> and then, known as a rapper,

called "awake", dig into that for us a little bit. >> yeah, he's a rapper, and it's not, you know, just some guy on youtube. this guy is on spotify, he had followers on there. he had a discord, it's like a message board, a community message board. he communicated to people who liked his work, and were in that space. and for example, the most recent post on the politics forum of his own discord, from one of the users, it was a picture of a box wire that politician who killed himself on live tv. and it was a meme about that. so, this was a rapper who had a community who had a space behind him, who have you know enough money to make music video on a set and all the stuff. so, a lot of these other people are just people of the internet. you, the first time they appear in public is maybe on a live stream doing their mass shooting. that was not the case this time. this guy was known amongst the community. >> which was the scope of his

following? which was the scope of his popularity? >> it's a really good question. i do want to stress, this is a very bad rap and art. it's not even that level, but some people seem to like the aesthetic of this mass murder stuff, which is what this was about. it has a very, like, columbine kind of feel to it, if you can call it that. it's very dark. it's a very dark aesthetic. it's focused on, with a lot of 4chan memes in this space as well, it's extremely online stuff. so, that's, it's focused on a lot of death in that space. and that's what you would see over and over again, over pretty much anything else. >> so the words used, the lyrics in these songs that he had created, this person of interest, was about, like, the words, murder, the words, death, the words, mass shootings.

>> yeah, the videos around that were about mass shootings. i don't give this guy too much credit to explain what this whole police set was, but it was just disguise videos, graphically depicted mass murder. and the last one that he put out was in january, and it's unclear what he did in the last few months. since this all came out, but it's clear now in hindsight, you can, 2020, but clearly, this guy was not just thinking about this, he wanted to actually pull off the sort of thing. for example, one of the pictures, sorry -- one of the cartoons that was drawn shows him with a long gun, and that's exactly what police say he had today during the shooting. >> jim kavanaugh and harry litman are here, ben. they've got lots of questions for you too. jim, you go first. >> ben, i want to ask you, how large do you think the murder fetish community is in the u.s.? you know, there's a lot of people that post, really gravitate to that genre of, and just excluding this killer, how

large do you think that community is that supporting that kind of talk. >> it's a really good question. i don't you can put a real number on it. and when the fbi does visit these people, and i have no idea if he was visited. but for example, there was a shooting from 2018 in new mexico, where one of the people shot a school in new mexico. william, he was visited by the feds because his name on the internet was: future mass shooter. that was his username on one of the things. they went into his house, and said, hey, how real is this exactly? and he said, i'm just strolling, dory about it, it's not that big of a deal. later on, he did perpetrate a mass shooting. so, they hide behind these guise just trolling, just joking around, this is how we talk about stuff to get through stuff, you know? but -- >> -- the buffalo shooter, similarly, a year before had made a threat, and that shooting. the police were called. he was taken to a mental health

facility, and told doctors he was just getting. so i, mean, this is something that we are not recognizing an american law enforcement and mental health evaluation where these people are saying this, we're not stepping forward to take the right action. you know, we are not saying that it would take, you know, attorneys like harry and the great attorneys in justices in congress, to see if there is a way, that when someone threatens a shooting, it could be a misdemeanor terroristic threat, that would then disable your ability to own or possess or purchase a firearm. if you are convicted of a misdemeanor triumph domestic violence, for example, misdemeanor crime of domestic violence under laws of any state, you prohibited federally from ever buying a gun. you can go into a gun shop and buy a gun. we have these people saying they want to do mass shootings, but we never go the extra step, when we get through, they say they're getting, and anyway -- >> yeah, really quickly. it's really difficult legal grounds here, because this guy

never said i'm gonna go to a mass shooting at a parade on the 4th of july. he never said that. he made a music video about mass shootings. the machine is only depicted in court to inform. so, you know, that is absolutely put that in speech. there is no question about that. you are allowed to make art about things that happen on planet earth. so, it's very difficult in the situation, unless there is some sort of other private indication, you can be obsessed with death on the internet. it's another thing you can be obsessed with. there was no overt threat that i have seen on the internet from, this guy yet. so, it's a very weird space for people who want to perpetrate this stuff. they can talk about it all they want. the issue is, if he doesn't give any sort of real threat, we're really there was not one that i saw so far, then it's very difficult to find the guy. >> harry, your thoughts? >> well, look, i agree with that, when you are just making noise on the internet, it's hard to criminalize, there have been some inroads made in

different communities, not through law enforcement, but through sort of social services to identify these potential problem guys, and really know when they might be taking, you know, within a couple of steps of actually acting out, as he seems to have done, starting in january. we don't know all the facts about that. so, certainly, you can certainly right, there's no law enforcement leverage, until, for just talking. but there may be -- you know, these are only 2%, 3% of shootings in the country. and they are notoriously difficult to stop. but, there is some progress being made, and identifying who among the kind of big tough talkers -- and notice, he's a nobody in real life, when he gets to be a rapper doing these songs online, which among those would be swashbuckling guys actually could be acting out. but man, it's a very tough

problem! and it's not one for a law enforcement. law enforcement, sack to say, comes in now after six people are dead. >> harry, jim, ben, standby, we just got some new video here at msnbc of the arrest of the person of interest. look closely as we -- look at this. it looks like a user generated content. as we watch this, can you tell us, jim, what you're seeing here as well? >> you know, it's a felony car stop. procedure for a felony car stop. they made verbal orders, step him out, get down on his knees, it looks like. and then, they moved in. you see him there. he's following the verbal orders of the patrol officers. you know, he is doing what they say, and then, you will see the staff moved him behind him, and then they're gonna handcuff him. it's a textbook felony car stop. they had him on the ground. they went running up to him prior to him obeying their verbal orders. and that's what we call, that's what you do in a felony car

stop, when someone is dangerous like that, you don't one up to him, because you don't want him to shoot you. so, what you do is your behind the doors of your patrol vehicle. you have officers, armed officers, stepping out, hands up, turn around, lay down on the ground. and they move in from where he cannot see that moving up, and of course, you see him there, and coughing him on the ground, securing the vehicles. >> and the person of interest here, jim, is right by the rear left wheel. is that what we are seeing? >> yeah, it. simple looks real skinny, as he is. the he only weighs 120 pounds, but that's him laying down their. there are handcuffing him. you had video showing doing a sweep of the vehicle, which is routine as well. and those dogs, they will pick up bullets and shell casings and even guns. so, they're doing that sweep, but that's later. we had that video on earlier. so, this is the arrest. felony car stopped, textbook, good maneuver. everybody safe, and now, the

next step is, you know he's taking, and given his rights, and his given a few months to talk to his detectives or not, obtain an attorney. and that's his next stage. >> so very non violent altercation here or confrontation with a person of interest, clearly. >> yeah, i think it was scared once he saw that cruiser in the front. the patrol in the back. like i said, this guy is not a real man. he's a coward, shooting and throw it goes from the roof. i mean he's a craving coward. i mean, he has images of and self like he likes to post, as ben was describing, he posted them on mr. big bands, brave guy. but as soon as the officers get around him, he is -- he is nothing. and now, he is arrested. you know, the community is a little safer. >> harry, quickly, reaction to that, from what you see? >> yeah, all through, textbook stuff. as a prosecutor, i'm encouraged

to see everything being done by the book, little stuff that you're not aware can really cause problems down the line. and i have to say, from the time the shooting started, these guys have been real pros, and that's gonna pay off, when we are actually in court. as i was surprised, he turns out to be not a guy who wants to go down, you know guns blazing, but quickly surrenders and will be going to trial, unless he pleads otherwise. >> harry litman, jim cavanaugh, stay with us. ben collins, thank you so much. lots of great information in the reporting on online footprint there of the person of interest. appreciate that. we will talk to you a little bit later if we can. jim, again, as i was mentioning as well, harry's gonna be with us. we're gonna take a short break here on the breaking news story. again, the person of interest taken into custody about one hour ago. two hours ago now. and we are now trying to determine what are the next

steps. we may hear charges coming down the next 12 hours, according to harry litman. we're gonna get to that, right after a short break, right here on msnbc. right right after a short break, right and vanguard retirement tools and advice can help you get there. that's the value of ownership. can help you get there. finding my way forward with node-positive breast cancer felt overwhelming at times. but i never just found my way, i made it. so when i finished active therapy, i kept moving forward and did everything i could to protect myself from recurrence. on msnbc verzenio is the first treatment in over 15 years for adults with hr-positive, her2-negative, node-positive, early breast cancer with a high chance of returning, as determined by your doctor when added to hormone therapy. hormone therapy works outside the cell while verzenio works inside to help stop the growth of cancer cells. diarrhea is common, may be severe, or cause dehydration or infection.

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here to tell you, be angry. i am furious. i am furious that yet more innocent lives were taken by gun violence. i am furious at that their loved ones are forever broken by what took place today. i am furious that children and their families have been traumatized. i am furious that this is happening in communities all across illinois, and america. i am furious because it does not have to be this way, and yet, we as a nation, well, we continue to allow this to happen. >> governor of illinois there, sharing some thoughts that many americans are thinking tonight. back now with our continuing coverage of the shooting at the fourth of july parade of highland park, illinois, six people dead, dozens injured. the person of interest in that shooting was apprehended earlier this evening, after a manhunt across the chicago area. now, the shooting was took

place this morning, sent hundreds of people, fleeing for their lives at the sound of gunshots. one of the people at the parade, chicago columnist, lynn sweet. she spoke with my colleague, chris hayes, earlier tonight. take a listen. >> i came to the parade as a civilian, just hoping to have a nice fourth of july parade in the suburb that is about 25 miles north of downtown. chris, what i saw was horrific. i saw the people fleeing, the moment the shots fired, people started scattering. so, as i went toward the scene that people were fleeing, i saw bodies on the ground, so mangled from this high powered weapon that the shooter was using. i don't even want, on television, tell you what one body i saw looked like, it was so horrific. i saw people being carried on journeys into ambulances. so, if there was anything

blessing in this horrible terrorist attack, is that at the beginning of the parade, there were all kinds of highland park emergency vehicles, kicking off this parade. and so, they were right there on the scene, when this shooting happened. it happened -- so, the emergency vehicles, chris, kicked off the parade. and the shooting happened about 14 minutes later, so they were all still there. so, small blessing in this casualty. >> lynn, where people able to tell where the shots are coming from, and run from safety? was it like -- how quickly did it don on everyone to understand where danger was, and where safety was? >> well, it wasn't that hard to figure out. the shooter, the massacres took place interviewing stand, which is right in downtown highland park, which is a area right where the train tracks. if anyone is familiar with this

suburb. so, most of the bodies i saw were the south side of the street, which suggests that the shooter was on the north side, on one of the buildings. it took people no time at all to understand to flee. people were running. people left their belongings. moments in time, the chairs, the water bottles, the nap sacks, candy, everything, abandoned. especially those baby carriages. i think it was pretty obvious what direction that the shooting was coming from, and people were able to run away from it. >> you, obviously, you've covered local politics. you've covered national politics, for years. and you have seen a lot in your very robust career as a journalist. there's something really kind of soul breaking about this, not just the first order of

horror of what happened in this murder, but to happen on this day, amidst a celebration, and the most kind of innocent, you know, fun filled, familial activity, just feels like, i don't know, something even darker than what we've experienced before. >> chris, can we review some words here? horrible violation, horrific, terror -- i mean, it's beyond terrible. and i think one of the things that we all know, because there are tragedies, other gun shootings in the city of chicago, tragically, that also happened in the weekend. but this mass shooting here is just one of the latest series of shootings. it strikes home. i mean, ironically, i came to this parade, which i've been to for many years. i have family up here, and friends. i came here almost for a day of rest from the news, which wasn't to be, to me.

and the people who died, and the people who were wounded, now have a sense of serenity, or a sense of place in this suburb. i am sure we had we've used to come that this happened with with an assault weapon, or an apparent rampant fire weapon. i think it also brings home the point that when you have a high caliber, or a high magazine count in a weapon, you can commit a massive, massacre in a matter of seconds. and we can count out, it was a matter of seconds before these people died, and dozens of others were injured. you know, we bless the walk-in's, or plus the people that might not have taken themselves to the hospital because there was the shooter at large, and people may not have wanted to go. >> yeah, and i wonder, if you think, as someone who has covered the gun debate in this country for a while. you know the governor has spoken, the mayor nancy very

outspoken, the senator very outspoken. just immediate and clear and vibrating with anger. as was the witness we spoke to. >> so governor, and the senator duckworth, just appeared at the last briefing. and a at a firehouse, about a mile away from the shooting so talk about this community this is a community that passed an assault weapons ban. i think went all the way up to the supreme court. but -- i have covered mass shooting since columbine. okay, what i hope people understand when you lived through it and you see people, and you see how fast a high rapid fire weapon, with a magazine, chalk full of -- you see here and witness this. i saw pools of blood so deep

today, where somebody must have been the, the physical evidence of the destruction that this weapon made. it is, i don't, and won't describe it on television. because the words i would use would just be -- it wouldn't be appropriate here. >> all right, journalist lena sweet their, chicago sun times, on site, at highland park. what's she had learned and what she had seen their, with my colleague chris hayes. we're going to take a short break up next, we're going to begin to the victims. the names were known very early on. but they were not released. what that might mean for the case going forward. short break, be right back. he case going forward short break, be right back

[interpreter] >> six people have passed, but we have a lot more work to do. we have to get this under control, we have to get this under control. having said that i just want to [inaudible] a slight moment of silence for all those families. >> all right, the president with a moment of silence there at the white house. for the july 4th celebrations.

but then this news broke earlier today, at around 10:15, local time. they're in highland park illinois. let's bring back jim kavanaugh. now jim we did know early on from law enforcement, that they had identified the names of those who lost their life. but they were very clear, and understandably, by protocols, we understand it's too early to do that. based on notifying relatives, and where they were barking in the case. but as you and i, and harry, we're talking about earlier. as we think about the case, the backgrounds of the victims as well as those who were injured. it may factor in to what's next in this case, might it? >> exactly, right. here's what i would expect tonight. if they can lock this guy in, if he is the killer, forensically, and maybe from a statement. they will try to get a murder warrant, one murder warrant, because, you know, you have these rifle shots, that are going into these victims. you have to get the ballistics

firearms identification. to match, you have to get a forensic firearms examiner to look at the projectile, you can retrieve, compare it to the rifle. that would be the strongest evidence. you can do it without that, that would be the strongest evidence. you don't need it for all six victims or all of the 20 wounded you just need it for one. so you can get the warrant to hold him and get a high bail. and then you can come in with a laboratory work later. and remember, the rifle round can go right through the person. you know, hit the cement, walk it, so the projectile can be discorded. so, you have to find the projectile some times you have to go to the morgue that is not totally deformed. sometimes, they could be, dependent on where they hit in the body, bones, so forth. you need to get that, the examiner looks at it, they can match it to the rifle, then if the rifle can be tied to this suspect. then that is a simple warrant, on one murder, for state homicide. that would be the kind of work i would expect, they would be

working towards tonight. if it is him, i wouldn't expect this early on, even six warrants. because they could always add those on later. the key is to get one strong charge tonight. if he is the killer. >> yes, as harry was talking about, when it comes to hate crimes, which he was very clear in describing. that could be a major addition to these charges. you are saying early on, don't expect to hear that even if we do understand what the backgrounds, the beliefs the ethnic backgrounds, the religions, of those who lost their lives. and who were attacked, don't expect that so early on, is what your are saying. because they may and on later? >> right, unless that evidence was so out front, the killer, at the supermarket in buffalo, he had put all these white nationalists hate speech, carved it into his rifle. i mean, you know -- what the civil rights attorneys in the doj are looking for. this is a guy who is committing mass murder for hate. you know, on black citizens.

so he is carving all of that white hate into the motive. and so that is an easier way to charge that. but in this case, even though something may surface as hate crimes, richard. it's not servicing yet as we know of it hasn't been out there so blatantly we know of. really forensically, linking at least one of these cases, could be a murder, could even be an aggravated assault. in other words someone who was wounded. if they can't get it on a murder victim, a murder victim would be preferred. but if they couldn't then get a warrant for aggravated assault. based on solid simple evidence. to get him locked in for the night, and get the bail high. then they can come on later, and added the other homicide charges. look at what you are describing, hate crimes, if the evidence is there. you know, and look at a whole panoply of crimes state and federal. but the key is locking that evidence in tonight. if he is the killer. if he is, you don't want him to

go free, you have to get something that will hold them. and that is the legal standard, you have to present an affidavit to a judge. it's not going to be a ground jury tonight. so a detective is going to have to sit down in the federal service, a special agent would sit down. they would write an affidavit atf agent, fbi agent, this is what i found i found a bullet it matched, a rifle. a fingerprint of the guy et cetera lay it out for a judge. and say this is my complaint, i am complaining that this is the killer and i want a warrant. and the judge based on your criminal complaint would issue the warrant. and that happens the same way in the state court. so that is likely what will be going on through the hours tonight. with the district attorney from that area lake county. you know sitting with the detectives, helping them to write a warrant, search warrant. and getting that all locked. i would be surprised if by the morning if this is the guy. that they don't have at least one warrant on him tonight. >> thank you so much, throughout the entire afternoon,

as you help us through this case jim kavanaugh as always, thank you so much. as we close out this hour of our special coverage, a statement from chicago mayor laurie lightfoot. my heart aches for the people of highland park we must continue to lift up this community. the victims, and their families and prayer. gun violence does not respect geographical boundaries or socioeconomic differences. it is a plague that affects us all. whether it is back of the yards, englewood, west garfield park, uvalde buffalo or now highland park. none of us are immune and all our vulnerable without a federal effort to take weapons of war out of the hands of civilians. it can be done, it must be done, and we must continue to move towards that goal with all deliberate speed. we cannot be truly free, unless we are relentlessly brave. chicago mayor laurie lightfoot there. we're going to take a quick break, our coverage continues after this. break, our coverage continue after this after this

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