would take on all these rights to privacy, and warned americans to pay careful attention. mike allen, thank you for being with us today. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" on this tuesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. fourth of july celebrations marred by gun violence in suburban chicago. highland park, illinois, six people killed, dozens more injured, after a shooter targets the crowd enjoying a parade. in philadelphia, two police officers injured when shots rang out during the july 4th events there. this video shows people on the ground scattering against a backdrop of fireworks. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, july 5th. i'm willie geist. we have the bureau chief at politico and host of "way too early," jonathan lemire. and associate editor of the "washington post," eugene robinson.

we begin with the latest developments in the mass shooting in illinois. six killed, 38 injured when a gunman opened fire at a fourth of july parade in highland park. that is an affluent suburb of chicago. this video shows a band playing as people begin to run. other footage caught the jarring sound of gunfire. ♪♪ [ gunfire ] >> imagine the shock and confusion. maybe it was fireworks, they could rightly think. no, those were gunshots. the series of shots you heard followed by a second round of shooting that lasted about 7 seconds. the gunman was on a rooftop with a high-powered rifle. parade-goers scattering in all directions once they realized what was happening. you see a band running there. the crowd left behind chairs, toys, baby strollers, and blankets. here's one witness describing that scene.

>> a few minutes into the parade started, like, the marching band had just passed, i heard a subsequent pop, pop, pop, all in quick succession. i thought to myself, that's not -- that sounds like gunshots, but there's no way. we're sitting in highland park at 10:00 in the morning. there's no way that's gunshots. must be fireworks. a few seconds later, people started to run past us. i grabbed my daughter at that point and just started running. >> the victims range in age from 8 to 85 years old. police say four or five children were treated at the hospital. a 22-year-old person of interest was taken into custody about 8 hours after the shooting. this video appears to show his arrest after a brief chase with police. the man has not yet been charged. police say they're not ready to call him a suspect, but they do believe he is responsible for the shooting. the 22-year-old reportedly has a history of sharing violent social media posts. more on that later.

more now on the victims. we've learned the names of two of the at least six people killed in yesterday's mass shooting. the family of nicholas toledo confirms to nbc news he was killed at the parade. his grandson called him a funny guy, always playful, always cracking jokes and playing with his grandkids. nicholas toledo was sitting in his wheelchair along the parade route when the shooting began. his son and his granddaughter's boyfriend also were shot. we're told their injuries are not critical. toledo held dual mexican and american citizenship. he'd moved back to illinois a few months ago because his family wanted him to have a better life. jacki sundheim a victim of the shooting. she was a life-long member and part of the staff at her jewish sing synagogue. she believes behind a husband

and daughter. joining us now from highland park, illinois, nbc news correspondent shaquille brewster. what is the latest on the ground there? >> reporter: good morning. i'm standing about a block away from where the shooting took place. it is a street that's still full of bicycles, of chairs, of fourth of july celebrations that were left -- or decorations that were left behind as people fled the gunfire that began about 10:15 yesterday morning. after the shooting, there was not only the chaos you had there, but you had situations of people who are nurses, doctors on the scene, immediately springing into action, saving lives. you know that it took the lives of six people who were killed and also put about 30 people, 38 people in the hospital. we also know that there was a large manhunt yesterday for the person of interest. someone not described as a suspect at this point, not formally charged, but the person

police believe is responsible for this shooting. we do know later today there will be services available for -- counseling services available for members of this community, as this is a grieving community that was shattered with this shooting. another mass shooting in the country. that was the message from the governor, jb pritzker, who was at a parade in a nearby town yesterday. he said if you're angry about another shooting in this country, he said he was furious about it. this is another scene we're going to see and will continue to see, where the investigation takes place. this scene is being processed still as we speak. it is likely going to be closed for some time, willie. >> shaq, to say gun violence is rare in highland park, illinois, is an understatement. it's an affluent suburb, northern suburbs of chicago, not far from downtown chicago. this looked like so many fourth of july parades we saw across the country yesterday, that we've all seen for our lives and for generations. you had little league teams and marching bands and just a small

town america. obviously, totally, totally shocked and stunned by what happened yesterday. >> reporter: an affluent suburb of chicago. you mentioned, it took about 45 minutes to get from downtown yesterday when i arrived on the scene. this is not just something that impacted highland park. neighboring towns, their fourth of july celebrations, parades, firework shows, they were canceled last night. we do know some of the hospitals were put on lockdown out of an abundance of caution, as the police and local officials and even with the assistance of the fbi, as they looked for this person of interest. it was an hours long manhunt that we saw yesterday. people in this area were told to shelter in place. we also know that when the person of interest was eventually identified and captured in lake forest, about 15 minutes away from where i'm standing right now, he did lead police on a brief pursuit. then he eventually surrendered.

you had three different active scenes of investigation in this area. this is something that impacted not only people of highland park but the entire region. what we know through nbc analysis of federal crime data, fourth of july, unfortunately, is one of america's deadliest holidays. >> we don't usually see it like this. shaquille brewster in highland parks, illinois, we'll be back to you. joining us now, tom winter and cedric alexander, public safety director of dekalb county in georgia. gentlemen, let's begin with reporting of how this happened, how they tracked this man down after the shooting, and what we know about him. >> right. what we know is it is robert e. crimo iii, not officially named by law enforcement as the shooter. goes by the nickname of bobby.

he is 5'11", 120 pounds. numerous face tattoos, numerous neck tattoos, as we've seen. he's posted a tremendous amount of material to pretty much every social media platform i can think of. youtube, facebook, spotify, twitter. this is somebody who is a -- who was named yesterday afternoon approximately 6 hours after the shooting began, which was around 11:14 a.m. eastern time. i think, willie, when you look at this, it was clear from the fbi seeking information poster yesterday that his vehicle was captured on some sort of a perhaps toll camera, something along those lines. it very clearly had the license plate visible, and that's the image we see. you know, did that play a part in them eventually getting on to this person? were they able to track his cell phone? that's something they have the ability to do in these types of incidents, either directly through the telecommunications

companies or through different devices police and the fbi can put into their police cars. we do know that a north chicago police officer apparently spotted the vehicle, called it in. they were able to arrest him apparently without incident. shortly afterwards, we had a helicopter overhead from our nbc station in chicago, captured the fbi s.w.a.t. on scene. they were working in the area, law enforcement was, at the time of the arrest and were clearly coming close to capturing him. they did. now, the question is whether or not this person of interest turns into a suspect, and whether or not that person is charged. presumably, we'll know the answer in the next couple hours. that's something we're going to continue to track closely. >> cedric, you've seen a lot in your long career. hopefully nothing like this. a man taking up a position on a rooftop and shooting down into a celebratory fourth of july parade. this last month or so, between robb elementary school, a supermarket in buffalo, and now a dark, dark, new chapter, where a target can be this joyful,

joyous celebration of our country in the northern suburbs of chicago. >> yeah, i mean, it's really sad, willie. first of all, let me say good morning. when we keep hearing these reports and they seem they're so frequent, and this one, frankly, struck me pretty close because my brother and his wife and family live just a few minutes away. even though they weren't there, they know people who were. fortunately, they weren't injured. every time these events occur, it seems to strike closer to us personally, regardless of who we are and where we are. in this country, i still think we have a lot to do around a whole idea around guns. the end of the day, it still comes back to that. you know, we're going to have some great legislation that's going to be passed by both sides of the aisle, but reality of it is, the accessibility of these weapons and being in the hands of those that it should not be, they should not be in the hands of, is going to be a continuing,

ever-plaguing problem for us in this nation. it'll put our communities at risk, our police officers at risk, who are out there trying to protect us. there's some heavy duty firepower out there. it is really concerning for me as a former law enforcement official, the safety of this nation and being able to keep each other safe. let me say this one thing and i'll stop here, to the american people, keep going to these events. let's continue to exercise our rights of freedom and having the opportunity to go out and enjoy ourselves. we're not going to let none of this stop us. we have to continue to be free, and we have to continue to g out and enjoy ourselves. we have to be mindful, watchful, and take care of each other. >> tom, it feels sadly appropriate, that in 2022, our nation's birthday is marked by a mass shooting, since gun violence so defines american culture these days it seems. images there from the parade just heartbreaking.

american flags left on the ground. stuffed animals abandoned by children. >> strollers. >> some kids last night separated from their parents. police trying to reunite them. obviously, investigation in its very early stages, but had two questions as to what we know so far. ishere any sense motive? i know there was initial chatter, this is a community with a very high jewish population. is there any sense that this was potentially anti-semitic in origin? secondly, we were commenting as the video was playing about the gunfire and how quick it came. what do we know about the weapon and how he got it? >> with respect to -- and you bring up a great point about the composition of the community. it was something we were certainly tracking and keeping an eye on early on. based on an initial analysis, and there's a lot of material from not only myself but our colleague ben collins at nbc, there doesn't appear to be anything overtly anti-semitic in the postings of this person of interest who, again, has not been charged with a crime and

not officially named, but we haven't seen that so far. does that mean the material doesn't exist somewhere else or on his person or perhaps doesn't exist at all? that's something time is going to bear out. with respect to the weapon, police said it is a high-powered rifle. i can tell you from listening to the bullets, it's not grandpa's shotgun. this is probably going to be an ar style or assault rifle type weapon. whether or not it was modified at all to shoot that quickly or whether or not he was somebody who had practiced and was that good at firing that weapon that quickly or not, again, are details we're going to figure out over time. as far as when it was purchased, the fact he left it behind, there was at least one rifle that was left behind at the scene, may have been the thing that allowed police to get onto or at least name him as a person of interest so quickly. you know, each weapon has a unique serial number. perhaps there were fingerprints left on it, but they could have tracked the initial purchase of the weapon or even maybe a

follow-on purchase of that weapon. that could have gone a long way into figuring out who was behind this and what was going on. certainly, the fact that if it is the person of interest that is, in fact, named the shooter, that person has real roots in this community, would have known, perhaps, the best place to be. it does indicate to me, at least initially and any discussions with law enforcement experts, some sort of a planning that occurred. this does not appear to have been something that just happened, you know, out of the blue. last thing i'll say, you know, you talked about the scene left behind at this, and shaq talked about it, as well, and showed images of it. this was just one of several scenes we saw across this country yesterday. last night in philadelphia, two police officers were hit with grazed gunshot wounds. luckily they're both going to survive, we're told by police in philly. that was an incident where you had people fleeing a fourth of july celebration, you know, one of the centers of american

democracy. that was some really tough video to watch last night, and it's still not clear who did that shooting. that was just one of several scenes. >> cedric, i want to get back to something that you said earlier. you said we should keep going out, live our lives, be mindful. i'm confused as to exactly how. this happened, you know, in a wealthy suburb of chicago, maybe the quintessential american city, in the heartland, on the fourth of july at a parade. if you're not safe there, where are you safe? how do we cope with this? what does being mindful and being careful mean at a time when you can go to a celebration of our nation's freedom and have it end in this kind of carnage?

>> you know, eugene, that's a question i ask myself all the time. it appears that every week, virtually every week, every other week, we're here at the same place we are right now. we keep asking ourselves that question, but it doesn't matter where that neighborhood may happen to be. that neighborhood there just outside of chicago, whether it's in buffalo, new york, in a middle income, african-american community, or regardless of where it is, we continue to see this trend. we've been seeing this trend for some time now. but are we really still addressing a larger social issue in this country, in which we really may have to begin to spend some time talking about? look, i think there's experts and researchers out there who certainly probably have better answers than i do. but i know this, and this is what 40 years of experience tells me, this is what continues to watch this and read about this and write about this tells

me, eugene, is that as a society, here in this country, things are beginning to feel as if they're breaking down. we sense and feel this more and more. here, you have a shooter, 21 years old, posts himself in an elevated position, shoots down on people. really don't matter it was there. it could be any city, usa. las vegas, elevated shooter shot and killed over 70 some people, i believe, there during an event in las vegas. but we've got to begin to think about, much more deeply than what we have in the past, what is happening in the environment? what is going on in our communities, in our neighborhoods, that is causing people to act in the manner in which these events are taking place? i think it could be a cull my culmination of a lot of things. it's not covid.

covid may have exacerbated the social ills and maybe a lot of the mental health issues that are beginning to emerge in our society, but i still will encourage, very strongly, eugene, and to the rest of the country, the only way we got to fight back is to continue to exercise our freedoms, continue to have to be a voice and speak up when we see something and hear something, because that's the only thing we can do. other than shelter in place. who wants to do that? we want to be americans that feel like we can go out -- >> it's a familiar story, as you say. you're breaking up a little there, cedric. i'm sorry. the familiar story of a young man with a high-powered rifle. we go back and will dig into this now in a moment and look into so many signs, a trail left online no one picked up. law enforcement analyst, cedric alexander, thank you for your insight. tom winter, you'll be back with us shortly. thank you. the shooting in highland

park wasn't the only case of gun violence during the fourth of july festivities, in philadelphia, two law enforcement officers now have been released from the hospital after both were shot at an event last night. police say the officers were working security for a concert and fireworks show near the city's museum of art when shots rang out at 10:00. a crowd of thousands ran from the area while fireworks lit up the sky behind them. as an overnight press conference, the police commissioner said investigators still are unsure where the gunfire came from or whether it was a targeted attack. here's the response from the frustrated mayor of philadelphia. >> we have to come to grips with what this country is about right now. this is a gun country. it's crazy. we're the most armed country in world history, and we're one of the least safest. so, you know, until americans decide they want to give up the guns and give up the opportunity to get gets, we're going to have

a problem. there's not an event, not a day i don't lay on my back and look at the ceiling and worry about stuff. i'm waiting for something bad to happen all the time. i'll be happy when i'm not here, when i'm not mayor. >> that's the mayor of philadelphia. gene, in these incidents yesterday, these two horrifying incidents, you have this tale of america right now in terms of guns. you have inner city gun violence, which is a plague and getting worse and expected to get worse this summer, and then you have this mass shooting where, again, a young man with a high-powered rifle, access to it, we'll learn how he got it, how easy it may have been for him to get it, could go out and create havoc and change a community and kill children in uvalde, texas, or grocery shoppers in buffalo, or people marching through a parade. a 76-year-old man sitting in a wheelchair at a fourth of july parade who was killed yesterday. this is, as you say, the story of america right now. >> it is, willie. with all these incidents, in

common, the gun. the gun. we will never, ever solve this problem, we will never, ever stem this tide of violence until we deal with the common element, which is the gun. there is mental illness and alienation. there are unattached and unmoored young men in every nation on earth. but in this nation, we have the potential for them to act out in this fatal, this tragic way, because we have more guns than people in this country. it is incredible. it is like a national suicide pack. we have to address the gun. we have to keep weapons of war out of the hands of civilians who are liable to use them in this way. we have to.

until we address that, until we look at that honestly, i don't see how we get anywhere. >> jonathan lemire, after uvalde, after buffalo, we had this big conversation. yes, there was some progress. there was legislation that made it through the united states senate, that made it through the house, that was signed by president biden. now, critics say it sort of nibbles around the edges and get gets at the margins of the problem and not the heart of it, but it took the death, the murder of kids in the elementary school classroom just to get us there. what will this do? what comes after that now? >> optimists hope that that piece of legislation that was signed into law would break the logjam, the first piece of gun legislation passed in decades, maybe more can follow. but most recognize that was all that, frankly, republicans are willing to do. something around the edges. yes, of course, it is good that something got done, but it was

incremental. even those who were cheering its support, including senator murphy of support, its fearest advocate, acknowledged there wasn't that much there. and it was immediately eclipsed by a supreme court decision that make it much harder for governments and police agencies to prevent people from carrying guns, concealed weapons on them. gun advocates across the nation fear that more shootings like this will now happen because it'll be that much easier to have guns. we've heard from mayors of gun cities, mayors of small towns, worried about this. police chiefs, big cities, small towns, worried about this, fearing that gun violence is only going to increase. and it is, to gene's point, an american story. it is, sadly, fitting that on the nation's birthday, we'd have another mass shooting with people ranging from 8 to in their 80s shot, wounded, and killed. >> we talk about red flag laws,

boy, were there some red flags with this person allegedly involved yesterday. we're going to get more on that. details of the person of interest in the fourth of july shooting in highland park, illinois, just outside chicago. including his violent presence online. ben collins has been digging through that and joins us with his reporting next. plus, we'll speak with a "chicago sun times" reporter who was at the parade yesterday. called it a, quote, blood bath. we will get her eye-witness account. plus, senate majority whip dick durbin of illinois will be our guest this morning. he was in highland park last night meeting with law enforcement and assessing what happened at the parade. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. parade applebee's late night. because half off is just more fun. now that's eatin' good in the neighborhood. my asthma felt anything but normal. you're watching "morning joe." you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. a once-mony add-on treatment

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♪ i've been everywhere, man ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man ♪ ♪ of travel i've had my share, man ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere ♪ ♪♪ you picked up your kid and put him in a garbage can? >> yeah. my little brother, who is 4, him, who is 5, and my puppy, i put them all three in the garbage dumpster. then i asked them to watch them.

i ran back. when i ran back, there was the bodies on the ground. >> my god, putting kids in a garbage dumpster to protect them from a mass shooting. that was a witness to yesterday's shooting in highland park, illinois, describing the moments after a gunman opened fire during a fourth of july parade. we are learning more today about the man police are calling a person of interest. joining us now with those details, senior reporter for nbc news, ben collins. ben, you've been digging through this man's online history. what'd you find? >> yeah, bobby crimo was, on the internet, known as a wake, a rapper on the internet. this wasn't a small time kind of thing. usually, where you see these mass killers, they sort of appear in the public for the first time at their mass killing. that was not the case with this killer. he had music videos where he graphically depicted school shootings and being in shootouts with the cops. there were cartoons of him being

in shootouts with the cops. he had a spotify account with tens of thousands of plays between that and youtube. he had his own discord server, which is basically like a message board or chat group, where people in that server talked about political nihilism, about political murder and things like that. this man was part of a much larger community that ties back to places like 4chan that are obsessed with mass death and nihilism in general, and the idea that the only way out of life in general, if you're a young man, is this sort of thing, mass death. to contribute your name to this culture of mass killing. >> so, ben, help me out here, and help our viewers out. you're describing explicit stuff on youtube, discord, other prominent social media channels. they say, they always tell us they're checking these things and taking down violent imagery and all the other things.

they have algorithms that can look for it. how does this stuff, number one, stay up, and, number two, nobody take notice of it and alert someone? how does that work? >> yeah, i have a hard time believing anyone in his life that didn't see the red flags in real life. this man made a music video where he had a set of a classroom where he did a school shooting, he was dropping bullets within the classroom, things like that. if you are someone in that person's life, you probably want to step in there. i'm just saying. unfortunately, this is, you know, not a thing that's easy to predict or protect. there are a lot of people making school shooting arts or, you know, graphic depictions and violent imagery on the internet. he was a power user on a specific website that was, you know, entirely devoted to videos of gruesome death. things like beheadings.

a few days ago, he posted a beheading video on an internet website where, you know, thousands of people use it. the thousands of people are not all going to go commit a mass killing on the fourth of july. that's the issue here. you know, we are, as americans, allowed to make these graphic depictions of horrific things. that should not necessarily put you on the radar of the feds. the problem is, when, you know, you start collecting ammo and people in your life start to see this, they really have to step in. that did not happen here. >> ben, it's jonathan. we had a similar tale with the buffalo shooter, who also had an extensive social media and online presence, which he talked about violence and warning signs that were so blatant but, yet, missed. your point is well-made, there's only so much law enforcement can do. but can you tell us what efforts there are under way? what sort of surveillance or monitoring they might have on

these sites, on this discourse, and is there a certain thing that would trigger intervention? is it a direct threat? how does this work? right now, you probably have a lot of people watching this so deeply frustrated that these signs are so out in the open and, yet, nothing was done. >> yeah, this is a new kind of thing. you know, does this fit in the idea of, you know, a terror group? it's really unclear. it's not like patriot front, the neo-nazis that march, get out of a u-haul and march for specific things they don't like. these are people describing themselves as lone wolves, having no real-life community, that meet together on the internet to talk about how horrible things are for them and how the only way out is to try to one-up the previous mass shooting. i am sure that there is some sort of, you know, fbi or law enforcement response to this that is ongoing, but it is probably not as advanced as traditional terror cells.

he pushed things that were closer to an aesthetic than a traditional group, i would say. you know, he made these music videos to fit in this larger thing called the fash wave of aesthetic, like the fascist retro wave or whatever. he was trying to fit into that community, the fascist online spaces on the internet with these music videos. what i would call black pills, which is the idea of death is really the only way out. that, you know, to them, society is a joke. death is the only way out. how do you exactly drill that down to who exactly is going to, you know, commit a mass murder? it is really difficult. but it is a completely new set of problems here that we have had in the last couple of years, as people got more and more deeply into very specific subcultures of the internet. some of those are incredibly violent. >> ben, what is even feasible in terms of trying to get advanced

warning of something like what happened yesterday? i mean, if you tried to even surveil every young man who has, at some point, a violent fantasy or who says something or posts something with some violence on the internet, you'd be completely lost. that's millions and millions of people. how -- how do -- is there any technology, is there any way that the social media companies can get their arms around this? i can't imagine that we would tolerate government surveillance of that sort of magnitude. who can do this and how? >> it's a really new challenge. i will say that -- man, there's no other way to put this -- the

one thing that combines all these things is ready access to weapons. and this guy had ready access to weapons. that's just the one thing. he had ready access to a machine that could kill a bunch of people in a short period of time. you're not going to be able to stop this on a rhetorical level. this guy, he posted on spotify, on discord, or a bunch of websites that you and i would never hear of. he posted on twitter, on youtube, instagram, posted everywhere he could post. even if there was a consortium of people who worked at the private companies monitoring this stuff, you couldn't get them all. there's no way to get them all necessarily. also, i want to say, like, you can't drill this down to one specific traditional political subculture. i know a lot of people want to point out he was a donald trump fan. he had -- there were pictures of him draped in a trump flag. outside of a donald trump

motorcade. this is part of a much larger, deeper subculture that donald trump is in the past of. like, this guy grew up as a child without donald trump as the president. he is going past donald trump. he is part of a new wave of terror, and that's something we have to get our brains around right now. this is not tied to one guy. this is tied to a much larger cell of people who think they're loners, who are really acting in concert, to express their disaffection with the world by murdering a bunch of people. we have to stop that. i don't know how else to stop that. the one thing you can stop at the very end is the gun part, but we have to at least, you know, try to start to learn how people are getting to this point. otherwise, we're going to come here every two weeks, guys, like every two weeks, we're going to be on this show talking about what's going to happen and how we can't stop this thing. we have to wrap our brains around this very new reality, where there are a bunch of

different subcultures that are extremely violent. they think the best way to get their message out, or they think the best way to show they can't live in this world is to murder a bunch of people at a parade. we have to start adapting societally to this, not just as a law enforcement perspective. we have to recognize the signs and working in our communities, in real life, to stop this stuff. >> ben, i hear your frustration. i think everybody watching shares the frustration. here we go again. as you said, just to go back to the beginning, this all was out there. this all was online, and there are people in his life who knew about it, who could have intervened, and may have stopped this. then the other stuff you talked about, the trail online, that gets into what does a red law flag do? it applies to criminal convictions and complaints. it doesn't apply to stuff you may have written online. it comes down to people in the shooter's life. ben collins, great reporting, as always. thanks so much for bringing it today. we appreciate it. coming up on "morning

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he sees himself and our family in the images of the ukrainian people. so, today, the statue of liberty is more complicated for us than it was that day on the boardwalk 37 years ago. >> those are the twin brothers, retired u.s. army lieutenant colonel alexander vindman and colonel yev vindman. both were born in ukraine. the refugee crisis in ukraine and elsewhere demand a stronger response from the biden administration. they join us now. gentlemen, great to have you with us. i think before we dig into what you're talking about in this opinion video about the refugee crisis in ukraine, it is important to take a step back and remind people. colonel vindman, alexander vindman, i'll start with you. of your own story, how you came to this country, what drove you out of the soviet union, the ukraine of today, and why this

issue of refugees is so important to you. >> yeah, we came here as this-year-ol 4-year-olds because our father believed in the american dream and a promise of america with unlimited opportunities. the video itself is a little bit of a representation of where we are today in 2022, an american society where there is still a huge amount of promise that i believe in deeply, but also with deep challenges, including what we've been talking about this morning with regards to gun violence. kind of a nihilistic, death cult being enabled by the former president trump and far right parties. it's a mixed story of that kind of tragedy, but also the promise of a more perfect union, represented by, you know, our kind of hopes for what brought us here and also for our children and the kind of america we want to live in.

that's what we committed to public service for, for two decades or more. >> yev, you came here, as your brother says, at the young age of 4. as you grew up, what was your experience as a refugee? what was your experience as an immigrant in the united states? how do you believe that it's a different experience for a refugee trying to come here now? >> first of all, willie, thanks for having us here today. it is a real treat for me to be on the show with alex. you know, our refugee experience 30 -- well, 42 years ago, we came very young. our dad bored the full brunt of the refugee experience. not speaking the language, coming to a brand-new country with a young family, hauling furniture for $20 a day until he learned enough english to become a new york city engineer and really start a new life. for us, we were very young. we were very resilient.

just like many of the young refugees and immigrants that come to the country. we are able to build a future for ourselves on par with anybody else that grows up in the country. the situation today is really, in many ways, not any different than it used to be for refugees. it's a difficult process, but it is one filled with hope. it's about a new life and a new beginning. the climate perhaps back then was a little bit easier. the year we came, 240,000 refugees were accepted in the country. now, the refugee ceiling, or under the previous administration, was reduced to 15,000. raised certainly by the certain administration, which is fantastic. but a lot of the infrastructure to support refugees was

eviscerated. that needs to be rebuilt. >> you mentioned your father. here's another short clip from the video, talking about the journey the vindmans' dad made. >> we were 4 years old. our father had $759 in his pocket when he arrived in the united states. he hauled furniture for $20 a day, learned english and, soon enough, he became a new york city engineer. he worked to support his three sons, and each us would go on to serve our country in the military. >> alex and i have come to see immigrants and refugees as a source of strength, bolstering our national security. >> colonel alexander vindman, why do you believe we can do better? where are the places the united states can expand its reach to refugees, specifically now as we look at the war in your home country and all of those people, lion them who have gone to poland, many million more displaced internally, looking for new homes. what could and should the united states do here?

>> we first need to recognize the strength of refugees and immigrants for this country. this is a country of refugees. each one of us can trace back our lineage to an immigration story somewhere in the recent past or distant past. we need to accept that it is a strength for the american population and recognize that there is an opportunity to add to our strength here by bringing in new blood, bringing in new populations. that certainly is the case with these temporary 100,000 parolees, welcomed in as respite from war. we should revamp the immigration policy to make sure there are basic services that allow families to come here and for children to prosper and to grow up and to commit to public service and to add to america's strength. we should just remember that each one of us has a story. almost none of us came from the u.s. it takes us back to a different,

far-off land. for decades, for generations, we've been able to come together all as one, and as americans with shared values and shared interests. might take a while, assimilation, it might take a generation, but that's the way this country has been built. right now, we don't welcome immigrants and refugees. that's something that i would hope to see change moving forward. >> colonel yev vindman, obviously, lots of refugees being forced from their home country of ukraine because of the war. just wanted to get your sense as to how things are going right now, in terms of the refugees finding homes elsewhere, even if not in the u.s. just yet. but also the state of the conflict with both sides taking heavy losses. the ukrainians resisting russia's initial assault on kyiv, of course, but russia now making some slow, grinding progress in the east. >> yeah.

i mean, just following up on what alex said, the system accepts refugees in a parole status. when refugees get here, they don't have the ability to work frequently, and the process to get work permits takes many months. so the families that arrive here need to have a method to support themselves so they're not on some other assistance. the united states is accepting refugees, but really a small fraction of what countries like poland and romania and other western european countries and central european countries are accepting. in all of these countries, there needs to be a mechanism for refugees in order to be able to support their families and not live on assistance. in order to be able to build new lives. this refugee crisis is a little interesting and maybe odd, and we'll see how it plays out in the end, depends how long the

war is, but many of the refugees state their intent to go back to ukraine. these are just temporary, temporary residences, in many cases, but with the need to support their families. as far as the war -- >> yeah. go ahead. >> i'm sorry. >> i was going to say -- >> as far as the -- as far as the way the war is going now, it looks like it's in a new phase. it is going to be grinding, more protracted conflict. that will certainly affect refugees and the ability of refugees to return to ukraine. but it's a conflict that must be won. ukraine must win that conflict in order to preserve a sort of international rules-based order that russia is destroying now. so they need our full support. they need timely support. on the humanitarian side as well

as the military side. >> as you know, the united states has pledged another $820 million just last week toward that effort. colonels alexander and yev vindman, thank you, both, for your service to the country, and thank you for bringing us your story. the new opinion video is online, thenewyorktimes.com. wnba star brittney griner pleads for help in a handwritten letter to president biden. what the administration is saying and, more importantly, doing about it. "morning joe" is coming right back. t only at vanguard you're more than just an investor you're an owner. that means that your priorities are ours too. our interactive tools and advice "morning joe" is coming right back hi. we're zerowater. and we believe everyone deserves

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♪♪ welcome back to "morning joe. "three minutes before the top of the hour. a handwritten letter from wnba

star brittney griner to president joe biden was delivered to the white house yesterday. she pled for his help. nbc news foreign correspondent matt bradley has details. >> reporter: an american basketball star jailed in moscow appealing to president biden. a letter from the phoenix mercury's brittney griner was delivered to the white house. she begs president biden to intervene in her case. i believe in you. i still have so much good to do with my freedom you can help restore. i miss my wife. i miss my family. i miss my teammates, the letter reads. it kills me to know they're suffering so much right now. the russians say they found vape cartaridges containing vape oil and could face ten years in prison. as i sit here in a russian prison, alone with my thoughts and without the protection of my wife, family, friends, olympic jersey, or any accomplishments, i'm terrified i might be here

forever. she was last seen in a moscow courtroom last week, charged with drug smuggling. >> she's walking into a situation where their judicial system has a 99% conviction rate. so in their system, there is no innocent. in their system, it's guilty. >> reporter: the u.s. state department considers greiner to be wrongfully detained, but her family believes president biden can do more. they want to meet him. meanwhile, griner, considered one of the biggest wnba stars ever, languishes in a russian jail. >> i'm terrified i might be here forever, writes one of the biggest stars in the wnba, putting increasing pressure on the white house to do something about this story. nbc's matt bradley reporting there. we'll keep tabs on that. coming up next, we'll return live to the scene of yesterday's mass shooting at a fourth of july parade in suburban, illinois. the latest from highland park, illinois, next on "morning joe," when we come back in one minute.

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♪ call one eight hundred, cacalledhehe bars s fillion ♪ i d d soit was the best call eouout hii could've made. call the barnes firm and find out what your case all could be worth.uld've made. ♪ call one eight hundred, eight million ♪ there are going to be people who say today is not the day, that now is not the time to talk about guns. i'm telling you, there is no better day and no better time than right here and right now. it's the fourth of july. a day for reflection on our freedoms. our founders carried muskes, not assault weapons. i don't think a single one of them would have said you have a constitutional right to an assault weapon with a high capacity magazine, or that that is more important than the right of the people who attended this parade today to live. >> illinois governor jb pritzker

speaking at a news conference after the mass shooting in his state yesterday, where police do say high-powered rifle was used. six people were killed, 38 injured when a gunman on a rooftop with that high-powered rifle opened fire on a crowd watching a fourth of july parade in highland park, an affluent suburb north of chicago. the victims ranging in age from 8 to 85 years old. a 22-year-old person of interest was taken into custody about 8 hours after the shooting. this video appears to show his arrest after a brief pursuit by police. nbc news national correspondent miguel almaguer has more. [ gunshots ] >> reporter: from parade to panic on the fourth of july. this the terrifying scene unfolding in highland park, illinois, as a barrage of bullets rips through a crowd, authorities say, killing at least six and leaving two dozen more injured, many with gunshot wounds.

>> i saw people shot on the ground, and a little boy being carried away by a person who got shot. people's blood, gunshot wounds. >> reporter: families that lined a holiday parade route suddenly scrambling away from the volley of gunfire and an active shooter who appeared to take a sniper-like position on a rooftop, according to police. >> people were screaming, panicking. just scattering. >> reporter: as mothers and fathers scrambled to carry their children away from the fourth of july bloodshed, investigators say the shooter initially slipped away, recovering a high-powered rifle, officers ordered a lockdown as their manhunt turned into a citywide dragnet. robert crimo was taken into custody. >> this appears to be completely random. >> reporter: with lawn chairs, strollers and blankets strewn across the crime scene, heavily armed police escorted children and their pets out of the area.

the mass shooting happening 30 miles outside chicago in an affluent suburb known for its safety. at 10:14 a.m., minutes after the parade started, the first shots rang out on a downtown block lined with trees and buildings. >> the people who were gone were quickly identified by the paramedics because they had horrific injuries. the kind of injuries you probably see in partime. >> nowadays, you don't feel safe anywhere. >> reporter: first mistaking gunfire for fireworks, cheers in the crowd quickly turned to cries for help, as hundreds ran for their lives. now, a person of interest after apprehended after six were killed on a day dedicated to freedom, but instead marred by tragedy and gun violence. >> miguel almaguer reporting there. joining us now live from highland park, illinois, nbc news correspondent shaquille

brewster. shaq, i'm struck watching miguel's piece, we've all been to that parade. it is a familiar scene to so many americans. you set up your camping chair, folding chair, try to get a good seat. you watch a marching band go by. a group of kids from the cub scouts or girl scouts go by. the vfw, all the groups that make up a community. then the gunshots in a community like that especially, it doesn't register in your brain that's even a possibility until you see people running for their lives. >> reporter: exactly, willie. the sun is rising behind me, revealing a scene frozen in time, as investigatoring continue processing it. it's the scene you described earlier, people here with their strollers. you still see wagons, blankets. the fourth of july celebrations and decorations as people were coming to enjoy the holiday. that's still there as investigators are working through this scene. the mayor described it as the bloodiest day highland park has seen. we do know that people fled. people thought it was fireworks.

they thought it was a military salute, as one person told one of our digital reporters who was here yesterday in the immediate hours after this shooting. i want you to listen to what some folks who were here at the scene as the shots rang out, what they said. >> maybe a few minutes into the parade started, like, the marching band had just passed, i heard a pop, pop, pop, all in quick succession. and i thought to myself, that's not -- that sounds like gunshots, but there's no way. we're sitting in highland park at 10:00 in the morning. there's no way that's gunshots. must be fireworks. >> pow, pow, a sound i've never heard before. ten seconds later, you hear people screaming, "bodies down." everyone starts scattering. >> reporter: you hear the disbelief in their voices as they were there, again, for the fourth of july parade. we know in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, people who were at the scene,

doctors, nurses who were here enjoying that parade, they sprang into action, applying tourniquets, rushing people to the hospital. there was the immediate manhunt for the person of interest. police quickly releasing a name, a photo, a vehicle id connected to the person of interest, and finding him 15 minutes away from where we're standing right now after a brief pursuit and he eventually surrendering. the one thing i do want to be clear about, while police are calling him a person of interest, they do believe he is the person who is responsible for this shooting. we do expect to get a little bit more from investigators. this is not just local police involved. county and sate police. you have the federal bureau of investigation, the fbi and atf, they're assisting this investigation. we know they'll be here processing the scene for some time. there's a lot we have left to learn, willie. >> that classification, the semantics they're using around him likely to change in the next few hours. shaq, we know six people are

dead, 38 people sent to the hospital. police yesterday said it was four or five children who were in the hospital. do we know anything at this point about how they're doing? >> reporter: the age range is from 8 to 85. a wide range of people who were impacted by this shooting. we do know some were in critical condition, serious condition. i think in all, you had about 38 people, about three dozen people who were rushed to the hospital as a result of this shooting. at one hospital, they said about 25 people had gunshot wounds. there were also wounds from people fleeing the scene. one thing we heard from some of the doctors and nurses is that not only did you have people here at the parade who were able to assist and likely stop the bleeding and save many lives by being able to immediately respond and immediately help people who so desperately needed it, but you heard the stories of doctors and nurses hearing about what happened in their downtown and rushing to the hospital to

help. before being even called in, they were able to help victims coming into the hospital, being rushed into the hospital. that likely saved lives. we'll learn more about those victims. we know two victims, two of the six who were killed have already been identified and have been named. we'll likely learn more about their stories, more about what exactly was lost, as we're dealing with another community heartbroken after an instance of gun violence. >> people going to a fourth of july parade being turned into field medics afterward. shaq brewster in highland park, illinois, thanks so much. we'll go live to the hospital for an update and the condition of some of the surviving victims in a bit. of those killed yesterday, we've learned the names of two of the at least six killed in yesterday's mass shooting. the family of nicholas toledo confirms to nbc news he was killed at the parade. he was 78 years old. toledo's grandson called him a funny guy, always playful, always cracking jokes and

playing with his grandkids. toledo was sitting in his wheelchair along the parade route when the shooting began. his son and his daughter's boyfriend also were shot. their injuries, we're told, not critical. toledo held dual mexican and american citizenship. he'd just moved back to illinois fewths ago because his family wanted him to have a better life in america. jacki sundheim has been identified as a victim of yesterday's shooting. her death confirmed by the north shore congregation israel. she taught preschool. she was a lifelong member and part of the there. the synagogue says she leaves behind a husband and a daughter. all victims that died at the scene have been identified. families still are being notified this morning. back with us, investigations correspondent tom winter. also with us, retired police chief carmen best. chief best, same conversation last hour with cedric alexander who, like you, has seen a lot in

his career. you've seen a lot in your career. but a young man with a high-powered rifle on a rooftop shooting down from an elevated position into a fourth of july parade is something we thought, hopefully, we never would have to see in this country. >> yeah, here we are again. over 300 mass shootings this year. mourning community, families mourning the death of people who were simply out, as you said, to enjoy an independence day parade. this young man with what we know is a high-powered rifle, which, you know, is more or less a euphemism for some type of assault weapon, just raining bullets into this crowd. we'll be curious to know, as investigators are following now, what the motive was, what inspired this guy to do this. we do know he has a fixation with violence and shootings. >> chief best, as a police chief

of a big city in seattle, you had to assess threats all the time, gather intelligence on people who may be a danger to the community. what do you do about a guy like this? we had our reporter ben collins on earlier saying this guy left a long trail of violence online. perhaps we don't know yet, but perhaps didn't have a criminal record as far as we know, but a long history of violent imagery, fantasizing about mass shootings at schools and other places. what do you do about a suspect like this? >> well, the thing is, we've had so much publicity and so much media attention to these cases, the that we know the signs of a person who has what we call leakage. they're leaking information out. they're indicators. we need people to come forward. somebody knew something more, i'm sure, about this, to come forward, so that we can, you know, have a way of maybe doing

some intervention before it leads to this violent act. this likely won't be the last time. some of this is, in some ways, preventable, if people come forward with information that can help law enforcement. it is a police chief's worst nightmare, the city's worst nightmare, a community's worst nightmare, to have a mass shooting like this. >> tom winter, this is a community certainly not accustom to really any violent crime, certainly anything like this. what more do we know about the investigation at this hour? >> willie, of course, to have a shooting at a -- and you said it earlier, this is a fourth of july day parade that looks like so many across the country. what we're waiting to hear is what type of charges might be filed in this case. it's certainly, based on the fbi seeking information poster and does not take somebody with my background to tell you, that homicide is definitely going to be there at the top of the list. we anticipate charges will

probably be filed today in this particular case. as shaq said, police believe this person, robert "bobby" crimo, is the shooter here. we'd anticipate the information being filed at some point. he was taken into custody without incident. we're not aware he needs any medical treatment for any physical injuries he may have. and so we should probably see him in court today. unclear whether or not our cameras could be in that particular courtroom. that's something we'll figure out down the line. that's the next step as far as the legal aspect of it. i think chief best really touched on it there. what's the next steps as far as this country is concerned? somebody, based on the social media posts that i look at and say, boy, if you sent me that youtube page two days ago, that's a phone call right there. you're picking up that phone because this is somebody who

clearly has some sort of an obsession with violence if, in fact, it is this person, and that it is somebody who has an obsession with perhaps school shootings, as well, or some mass shooting. that's something that needs to be looked at. i think that's something we need to address in this country. when are we picking up the phone here? we're conditioned to see something, say something, kind of the new york city area mantra when it comes to terrorism. when are we going to do that when it comes to people that are in our communities? >> tom, we had that conversation with ben collins earlier, talking about how there are these elaborate and disturbing social media presences, online presences out there. right now, there is not much law enforcement can do. i want to talk to you about another phenomenon. the copycat effect. we know that after the buffalo shooting, there was fear there could be another soon. of course, there was uvalde. we don't know those two were linked. there was suddenly a rise in shootings. there was a spike in shootings across the country. do we think what happened

yesterday, too early to say whether yesterday was connected to that, but how much of a concern is it we'll have another mass shooting, inspired by those that came before, by shooters who fit the profile? >> if you have to say the name, say it once and that's it. don't perpetuate the name of the shooter here. when we get new details on the uvalde shooter, my sense is we'll find out that individual was disturbed on levels that, frankly, we haven't really come across before, in that that was under way well before the incident we saw in buffalo. but to the greater point, we consistently see in these shootings that these individuals study, are completely engaged in the history of mass shootings. adam lanza is a classic example.

somebody who is very acutely aware and studied prior mass shootings before committing the atrocity that we saw at the elementary school, sandy hook elementary school in newtown, connecticut. when we look at these incidents, it is a fear of mine talking about it. we have to -- we have a duty to inform people. we have a duty to let people know information. that helps inform policy. that helps people understand what's going on. but i think it's important that we also realize that the more this information is out there, the more it entices individuals, potentially, to commit these acts and to get inspired themselves by it. something we used to talk about when isis was putting out a lot of propaganda. in a way, this is another propaganda. as somebody in law enforcement put to me a couple years ago, the internet is this amplifier and speaker that we have never had before in society. >> yeah. >> and so whatever the music it is that people choose, they're able to get access to so much of

it now. it's such loud volumes. it is something we need to think about. >> and those people have access to the weapons to carry out their fantasies, as well. chief best, we should add that last night, two philadelphia police officers were shot. they've been released from the hospital, thank goodness, during a fourth of july celebration. we just got word overnight from the new york city police department that in a 4-hour span last night, 13 people were shot, three of them dead. some others in critical condition. as you know from serving the city of seattle, this is not a problem just about ar-15s and people shooting up schools and grocery stores and fourth of july parades. this is something we expect to see, sadly, tragically, all summer in our big cities. >> yeah, you're absolutely right. the level of violence and the number of shootings, proliferation of guns, the recent legislation hopefully will make a dent in some ways with this, but we have a real problem here.

we have an epidemic of violence and shootings all across the nation. homicides are up. we're going to have to work together on legislation, on common sense gun responsibility, and law enforcement staying more alert and involved, and the community coming forward with information beforehand so we can prevent some of these shootings that are occurring. it is going to be a tough summer. >> retired seattle police chief carmen best, nbc's tom winter, thank you, both, so much for being with us this morning. we appreciate it. still ahead on "morning joe," we will get a live report from akron, ohio, where the mayor declared a state of emergency in the wake of a disturbing officer-involved shooting. protesters and the family of a young man named jayland walker are demanding answers about how and why the 25-year-old was shot to death in a flurry of bullets by a group of officers. and more from highland park, illinois. "chicago sun times" reporter

will join us with her firsthand account of the shooting. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. you're watching "morning joe." so you can go and see all those lemons, for less. welcome to allstate where the safer you drive, the more you save like rachel here we'll be right back. the most cautious driver we got am i there? looking good (phone chimes) safe driving and drivewise saves you 40% with allstate my asthma felt athing but normal. ♪♪ it was time for a nunormal with nucala. nucala is a once monthly add-on treatment for severe eosinophilic asthma that can mean less oral steroids. not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions, back pain, and fatigue. ask your asthma specialist about a nunormal with nucala.

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welcome back. 7:23 on the east coast. a state of emergency now in effect in akron, ohio, as anger grows over the shooting death of a black man by police. citing, quote, credible cause to believe that further threats of violence and unrest exist, the city's mayor issued that emergency order yesterday. that comes amid protests in akron, after jayland walker was pulled over for a traffic stop last week. the 25-year-old allegedly led police on a chase. police say he fired a shot from the car before trying to run away with eight officers later firing dozens of rounds at the 25-year-old man. police say a gun was found in walker's car afterward but not on his body. the officers involved since have been placed on administrative leave. joining us now from akron, nbc

news correspondent maggie vespa. what's the latest there? >> reporter: sure. willie, just over a week after police shot and killed jayland walker, the city of akron quiet this morning but remaining on edge and under the state of emergency. as you said, police demanding justice and answers, after walker had 60 gunshot wounds on his body. we want to warn you, some of the video you're about to see may be disturbing. >> what do we want? >> justice. >> reporter: mounting anger and a march to the mayor's house demanding justice for jayland walker. the man shot dozens of times, authorities say, by eight officers in akron, ohio. >> hurt our hearts to see a young black man was gunned down. >> reporter: the mayor declaring a state of emergency after more protests. police appearing to deploy tear gas on a crowd angry at the shooting. the family attorney says

authorities told him90 rounds were fired, 60 hitting mr. walker's body. >> it was an attack on my client. that was an attack. >> i understand the public's demand for information now. >> reporter: the 7-minute clip shows walker's last moments beginning with a high-speed chase. police say officers tried to pull walker over for an un unspecified traffic violation, not shown on tape, but he sped off and allegedly fired at them. >> a shot. >> reporter: police say you can see the flash from the gun from a security camera. the video shows walker later ran from his car wearing a ski mask. officers, investigators say, fired taizers but missed. later, the fatal hail of bullets. officers thought walker was turning toward them, reaching for a gun. adding they found a gun not on him but in his car. the family revealing walker

recently had lost his fiancé. robert hubbard was walker's high school wrestling coach, remembering him as a sweet kid. >> i never remember hearing him raise his voice in anger. to be shot down like that, like a rapid animal, was devastating. i still don't understand it. >> reporter: the eight officers, unnamed, are on leave, as protocol. walker's family pleading for answers. >> we want to know why did this have to happen to him? >> reporter: the state's investigation into the deadly shooting continues. ohio's attorney general promising yesterday it will be, in his words, complete and fair. that being said, no estimate as to how long this investigation will take. willie. >> for now, a state of emergency there in akron, ohio. nbc's maggie vespa reporting for us from akron. thank you so much. more on this story ahead. coming up next, we'll return

to highland park, illinois, for more on the victims of yesterday's mass shooting just outside of chicago, as well as those now being called heros for their actions to save lives at a fourth of july parade. plus, u.s. senator of illinois, majority chip dick durbin will join our conversation. "morning joe" is coming right back. conversation when moderate to severe ulcerative colitis persists... put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when uc got unpredictable,... i got rapid symptom relief with rinvoq. "morning joe" is coming right "morning joe" is coming right back check. and when uc got the upper hand... rinvoq helped visibly repair the colon lining. check. rapid symptom relief. lasting, steroid-free remission. and a chance to visibly repair the n lining. check. check. and check. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb.

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so start saving by switching to the mobile service designed for small business: comcast business mobile. flexible data plans mean you can get unlimited data or pay by the gig. all on the most reliable 5g network with no line activation fees or term contracts... saving you up to $500 a year. and it's only available to comcast business internet customers. so boost your bottom line by switching today. comcast business. powering possibilities. let's go to kathy park. she's outside of north shore highland park hospital, about a mile away from the scene of yesterday's shooting at a fourth of july parade. kathy, what more can you tell us about the victims this morning? >> reporter: willie, good morning to you. hearts are definitely heavy here in the community of highland park, as you mentioned. the hospital we're standing in front of is less than a mile away from the parade route.

as you can imagine, shortly after the shooting, there was a rush of people who were injured. they came to this specific location. 26 in total. doctors say that 25 sustained gunshot wounds. this is some promising news, they said that 19 people were treated and released yesterday. as of this morning, we know that several people at other hospitals in the area are still receiving treatment. it certainly was a chaotic scene yesterday here in downtown high school park. it was july 4th celebration. we talked to a lot of folk here on the ground. they said they were looking forward to this annual tradition, especially after hunkering down with the pandemic. the roads were packed. people were looking forward to this event. shortly after 10:00 yesterday morning, that's when officers said that the gunman was on top of a roof and began shooting at people on the ground. it was just chaos and panic that

ensued. then there were stories of heroism. there were several doctors who were among the crowd. they quickly jumped into action, trying to stop some of the bleeding. they waited for help to arrive. then you hear elementary school kids helping or watching the parade, helping to guide other kids who were lost amid the chaos. willie, it's important to note the victims' names are being released. we have something to share. nicholas toledo didn't want to come to the parade. he was visiting from mexico, encouraged to join the day with the family. several other members of the family were injured, as well. another victim was

jacki sundheim. she was a teacher and events coordinator. she was remembered for her work, her kindness, and also her warmth. as the day progresses, i'm sure we'll get more stories like this. we'll also hear stories of heroism and the lives they left behind. >> came to watch a fourth of july parade like so many of us across the country have for generations. kathy park, we'll be back to you shortly. you have more to report from highland park. we'll get back to you. coming up next, in the words of senator mitt romney, quote, america is in denial. we'll tell you what he means in a new piece in the "atlantic" next on "morning joe." "atlanti next on "morning joe."

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liberty is under assault, assault both here and abroad. in recent days, there's been reason to think this country is moving backward, that freedom is being reduced, that rights we

assume were protected are no longer. reminder that we remain in an ongoing battle for the soul of america, as we have more over 200 years. i know it can be exhausting and unsettling, but tonight, i want you to know, we're going to get through all of this. >> president biden speaking at the white house yesterday during a july 4th celebration. meanwhile, senator romney wrote a piece for the "atlantic" in which he writes "america is in denial." quote, what accounts for the blithe dismissal of potentially cataclysmic threats? the left thinks the right is at fault were ignoring climate change and the attacks on our political system. the right things the left is the problem for ignoring illegal immigration and national debt. more and more, we are a nation in denial. president joe biden is a genuinely good man, writes

romney, but he has yet been unable to break through our national malady of denial, deceit, and distrust. a return of donald trump would feed the sickness, probably rendering it incurable. i hope for a president who can rise above the din to unite us behind the truth. while we wait, leadership must come from fathers and mothers, teachers and nurses, priests and rabbis, businessmen and businesswomen, journalists and pundits. that will require us all to rise above ourselves, above our grievances and resentments, and grasp the mantle of leadership our country so badly needs. jonathan surprising, to see sen romney critical of donald trump. but there are many americans and republicans, of course, who hear the early drum beat of president trump running for president again and worry about what may be around the corner for this country. >> yeah. as someone put it to me recently, that were trump to be re-elected, to take office again

after 2024, after everything he had already done, the mismanagement of the pandemic, the way he used office, the powers of the office to enrich his family, and, of course, everything that came that led to january 6th and his big lie and his efforts to discredit the electoral system in this country, were he to win again, we'd be in a new, very dangerous place. the american experiment itsel would be in jeopardy. certainly, look, there are plenty of democrats who don't like everything senator romney stands for and positions he has taken, but he is right about that, that at the moment, there seems to be a sense of real frustration and hopelessness surrounding this nation's politics. president biden, of course, you know, a decent man, his hands tied in a lot of measures, trying to fight things like inflation or a supreme court where four of its five justices -- five of the justices, in fact, appointed by republicans who lost the popular vote. a lot of people really frustrated, angry, and almost

hopeless about where things are, particularly in the wake of yet another mass shooting. willie, there is no question, that senator romney is on to something in terms of having to look for local leadership, for family members, to try to find some inspiration. right now, it feels hope is in short supply. >> if you look at the wrong track numbers, they're staggering. 75%, 85%, that's the wayfeels t here. our next guest may have thoughts on leadership in america. 2017, former missouri secretary of state jason kander experienced a meteoric rise after being mentioned by president obama as a rising star in the democratic party. >> who do you see out there in the democratic party today as a rising star, that sort of has that accepts of principle and courage you see coming up in your generation? >> i think there's a bunch of folks who are doing really

interesting stuff. my guy in missouri, who lost, but seems extraordinarily talented, kander, talented and a sharp guy. i hope he gets back on the horse. >> as his status grew, the afghanistan war veteran prepared to expand his political career, until he says it came crashing down due to his battle with ptsd. jason kander joins us now, "invisible storm, a soldier's memoir of politics and ptsd." i want to dig into this book because it is an important topic for so many point. i'm curious to get your take on the state of the country, playing off what senator romney wrote about in the "atlantic," the lack of leadership, the lack of guidance, the lack of purpose the country feels right now in the face of all the obstacles that we see in front of us, including yesterday a mass shooting at a fourth of july

parade outside of chicago. >> thank you for having me. when i think of senator romney's words, i think of a term that i learned about myself in therapy, that i've thought a lot about in regards to the country in the last couple years, which is avoidance. when there are things happening that we don't want to think about. in my case, it was intrusive thoughts, disruptive memories, but in the country's case, it's the news. it's what's going on. it's the difficulty we have in speaking to one another and finding any common ground with each other. so we avoid it. we find other things to think about, talk about, or avoid reality in many cases. you know, senator romney thinks of it as denial. i think of it as, you know, avoidance. in my case, it's what i learned about myself in therapy for ptsd. >> here the book. i promised i'd hold it up, as delivered there. talk to us about what prompted you to write this and why you think, lessons you learned about

yourself, ptsd, about the struggle with it, might be applicable and helpful for a country right now that does feel like it is reeling from daily traumas. >> couple reasons. one, you're right, we are undergoing trauma as a country all the time. but one of the things i learned, i spent 11 years telling myself what i experienced in afghanistan, that can't count as ptsd. i have friends who were shot, lost limbs, that sort of thing. i told myself for years, it doesn't count. what i hear people doing all the time now is looking at the news and saying, well, that's what had happened to somebody else. it's upset manage e, and i've been having trouble concentrating and losing sleep, but it is not like i experienced a trauma. they don't afford themselves an opportunity to get help. i wrote the book i needed sh 14 years ago when i came home from afghanistan that didn't exist. i hope there's someone out there, a veteran, maybe not, they don't have to be to get something out of the book. i think they can get a lot out

of it. >> how are you doing now? how is your battle with ptsd? >> i'm doing very well. that's the other thing that i wanted to get across, post-traumatic growth is a real thing. we tend to see ptsd or any kind of trauma as something where it happens and you never get over it. that's how it is usually portrayed. but i wanted people to know that you can manage your life. you can have this trauma, go to treatment, and do better, which is why i wrote the book. all the proceeds go to fight veterans suicide and homelessness. >> couldn't be more of an important cause. i have to go back to it. former president obama suggested you were someone who could have a bright political future. you set politics aside. think you'll get back into it? >> people should read out the book to find out more. >> good tease. >> what i'd say is at this moment in my life, i no longer feel i'm in a place where i have to think about the future to avoid what is going on in the present.

i no longer have the disruptive thoughts, the nightmares and all those things that i had on a day-to-day basis before i got treatment for ptsd. i'm coaching little league, playing on an old man baseball team, hanging out with my wife and kids and enjoying the heck out of it. maybe one day i'll get back into things, which sounds like an answer i'm avoiding your question. the truth is i'm having a really good time. maybe one day i'll run for something again, but it ain't going to be soon. >> shoutout to old man sports leagues, by the way. we're all there with you, by the way. you took the extraordinary step, you were running for the mayor of kansas city. you were going to glide to that office, a very big job, obviously, in your state and across the country. you took the extraordinary step of withdrawing from the race because of your ptsd. can you talk a little bit about how critical the problem was at that moment for you, to take that step, and how you got through it? >> yeah. it was pretty critical. it got to the point where i actually had called the veteran suicide hotline, the va crisis

line. to that point, i told myself i wasn't like the other people who were experiencing this. though i had 11 years of symptoms, that i had sort of avoided in my mind and tried to cope with and, frankly, tried to outrun by running for office. it was when i heard the tone of the woman's voice on the other end of the phone, and i realized, oh, i didn't sound ay different than anybody else she dealt with that day in the job. i was having suicidal thoughts. it frightened me. i didn't want to want to kill myself. i decided to step back from everything. more importantly, that's when i decided i'd tell everybody the truth about why. i felt like if there was somebody else out there like me, well, maybe they would hear that and it'd cause them to get help. it turns out, there were a whole lot of people out there like me, veteran or otherwise. you know, i wish everybody had the experience of when they decided to keep help, that they got the affirmation of having people say, you saved my life because i realized if you needed this help, maybe i did, too. and i figured if i was able to

do that with my announcement, maybe with this book, i can convince people that getting help actually does help. >> that's an important moment to underline and stop and pay attention to. because, obviously, suicide is epidemic in this country. it is epidemic among veterans. how did you get past that moment? get past that moment because a lot of people either don't make that phone call or don't survive past that phone call even if they make it. what was it that stopped you and allowed you to sort of see the light beyond? >> a couple of things, one, my wife. you know, my wife plays a big role in my life obviously but also in this book. unlike most memoirs, she gives a lot of first person passages in the book because it's important to not just hear from me but hear from her about what it was like being with me, and i don't think it was like a party all the time. now she likes to say that we're on our second marriage. and to the same guy. the other thing that got me through was therapy at the va. you know, the entire third act of the book is just me taking

you inside what that therapy room was like with my therapist nick at the va. i figure, and by the way, the book is funny too. i should say that. it's a book about ptsd, but the jokes work, which is why you can get through it. i wanted to take people inside that room because i figure if my goal is to get more people, whether they have trauma, whatever it is, a bad divorce, a car accident, it doesn't matter, just you live with somebody who went through something, if i can get more people to understand what it's like to be in the room and how doable the treatment is, i figure that's probably the greatest service i can do. >> with a lot of help you found hope and joy. let's end this with a message to the country right now. obviously you found hope in your own life. a lot of people are feeling frankly grim about the state of affairs in this country. what gives you hope, jason, as you look ahead to the future? >> i would say the biggest thing that gives me hope and i'm going to sound -- i'm 41 years old.

i don't feel that old but this is an old guy, whenever i talk to people younger than me. folks particularly from generation z what i find is that they are -- their find our inability to speak to one another, and our inability to deal with the problems that face us, it's not that they are frustrated by t they find it completely unacceptable to them, and it makes no sense. americans don't feel like they know each other anymore, you only know people who are exactly like you and think exactly like you, they find it unacceptable. we think that, you know, technology is pushing us apart, and i find that, you know, folks in their 20s right now or younger are using technology to bring them closer together with people who are not exactly like them all the time, and that's what gives me hope. ultimately in a country that has many no form of mandatory service far long time for the longest consecutive period in their history, we are struggling to figure out what it is as americans that holds us together. is it that one in three watch a

super bowl, everybody has a view on taylor swift, it's got to be something deeper than that. when i look at rising generations, people are searching for than commonality. >> it's an important message. all over your book. you're doing well, 41 years old, a lot of road ahead of you, people waiting to see what you do next. the new book is "invisible storm a soldier's memoir of politics and ptsd" if you're suffering, listen to jason's message and call and reach out for the help you need. thank you so much for being with us, and congratulations on the book. >> thank you, willie. some developments to report from the war in ukraine this morning. the prime minister of that country says it will take about $750 billion to rebuilding his country after russia's invasion. his comments came yesterday during a conference of world leaders and international development organizations in switzerland. president volodymyr zelenskyy addressed the gathering virtually saying the task of rebuilding ukraine will require quote large funding and colossal

investments. meanwhile, the president of the european commission says the eu will set up a reconstruction platform to coordinate that rebuilding of ukraine. in russia, there have been several high profile arrests in recent days, a sign president vladimir putin is cracking down on any signs of push back. "the new york times" reports one of the targets is an ailing physicist at the time of his arrest. the message sent by high profile detentions, nearly anyone is now punishable in vladimir putin's russia. none of the targets in the recent crack down was an outspoken kremlin critic. many of the loudest opponents who chose to stay in russia after the invasion of ukraine already were in jail, but each of the recent crackdown targets represented an outward looking russia that putin increasingly describes as an existential threat, and the ways they were taken into custody appeared designed to make waves. that is reporting this morning

from the "new york times." still ahead, we will go back to highland park, illinois, the scene of the latest mass shooting in america. also nbc's pete williams reports on a key piece of evidence that gave investigators a major break in this case to find and arrest the suspect. "morning joe" is coming right back. find and aesrrt the suspect. "morning joe" is coming right "morning joe" is coming right back how do we show that we'll stand tall through the storms? nah. (thunder) how do we make our clients feel secure and- ugh... not lions. (lion rumbles) we do it with our people. people who've been looking after people for over 170 years.

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i just listened to the sound of that gunfire from one of the videos that was captured, and let me tell you, that the last time i heard a weapon with that capacity firing that rapidly on the fourth of july was iraq. it was not the united states of america. we can and we should and we will do better. >> senator tammy duckworth of illinois, retired combat veteran reacted to the mass shooting in her home state. six people were killed, 38

injured when a gunman opened fire at a fourth of july parade in highland park, a suburb north of chicago. here's video showing the moment the gunfire began. the series of shots you're hearing was followed by a second round that lasted about seven seconds. you can see people watching a fourth of july parade just sit there at first because how could that possibly be gunfire. maybe it was fireworks or part of the parade. everything changes. that gunman was high on a rooftop, shooting with a high powered rifle. parade goers scattered in all directions, leaving behind chairs, toys, baby strollers, blankets, everything you would expect to see at a fourth of july parade. the victims ranging in age from 8 to 85. police say four or five children were treated at hospitals. a 22-year-old person of interest was taken into custody about eight hours later. this video appears to show his arrest after a brief pursuit by police. he has not yet been charged, but

he's believed to be responsible for the shooting. the man has a history of violent social media posts. nbc news justice correspondent pete williams has more on how investigators tracked him down. >> reporter: police in highland park say a major break in the investigation is the discovery of a high powered rifle apparently used in the shooting and left behind when the attacker fled. investigators checked it for fingerprints and atf agents launched an immediate trace based on the unique serial number on every firearm that can reveal who originally bought the gun and when it was sold. >> at a mass shooting, a killer does not usually leave the gun. all that's found are shell casings and projectiles left at the scene. here we have the rifle that would yield evidence of dna. >> police from chicago and other communities rushed in to help, along with federal agents, they joined hundreds of officers in an intensive search, launching aircraft and drones, deploying

dog teams andleading for public tips. officers fanned out from the scene of the parade, searching nearby buildings. residents in the area were urged to stay in their homes. 2022 has brought a flood of high profile mass shootings. more than 300 incidents in all so far this year. that's approaching a record number. mass shootings in the u.s. have been on the rise since the beginning of the covid pandemic. public gatherings are especially difficult to secure, and the department of homeland security has warned that the u.s. remains in a heightened threat environment with a mix of motives. last november, a man plowed his suv into a crowd gathered for the annual christmas parade in wisconsin, just outside milwaukee. six people were killed and more than 60 were hurt. police said the driver, angry and speeding away from a domestic dispute targeted the crowd. >> talk about a fourth of july parade as a quote heightened threat environment. that's nbc's pete williams reporting.

joining us now from highland park, illinois, nbc news correspondent shaquille brewster. good morning again. what's the latest there. >> reporter: you see investigators still behind me, processing the scene. they will be here for much of the day. there are a few updates that we've had since the last hour when i spoke to you. first, we can expect to hear from the lake county sheriff's office. they have been the ones updating members of the public, members of the media. we can expect to hear from them at some point later this morning. likely around noon eastern time. last we heard from them was when they announced the capture and arrest of this person of interest who they believe is responsible for the shooting that happened after a brief pursuit in a town about 15 minutes away from where i'm standing right now. we'll see if we get any update, if they officially call him a suspect or any charges will be filed. we'll see if we find out more about that later this afternoon. second, we heard from the hospital, at least eight people are waking up in the hospital this morning. the hospital not providing any updates on their conditions or the identities, but we do know

that eight people are waking up in the hospital after this shooting. we know about three dozen people, 38 people were hospitalized, both transported to the hospital and also self transported to the hospital. we'll get an update from them to see if there's any more information there. we heard from the mayor in the last hour who told the "today" show, told hoda that the weapon used, the high powered rifle, that's all we know about it at this point, that that weapon was legally obtained. it's been that weapon that's been the focus of many of the political leaders including the governor of illinois, j.b. pritzker who said that the access to weapons here in the state of illinois, here in the united states is too easy, too available. i want you to listen to a little bit of what we heard from him in the immediate aftermath of yesterday's shootings. >> if you're angry today, i'm here to tell you, be angry. i'm furious. i'm furious that yet more innocent lives were taken by gun

violence. i'm furious that their loved ones are forever broken by what took place today. i'm furious that children and their families have been traumatized. i'm furious that this is happening in communities all across illinois and america. i'm furious because it does not have to be this way. and yet, we as a nation, well, we continue to allow this to happen. >> reporter: this is something that is not just impacting highland park but is also impacting many of the neighborhoods around. we know fourth of july parades, celebrations, fireworks were cancelled in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. there was a man hunt underway for that person of interest. we also know that the town is offering starting at 9:00 a.m. this morning, they'll be offering counseling services at the high school for members of this community. there were hundreds of people who were here at this parade celebrating the fourth of july holiday who heard the gunfire,

who ran, who were fleeing for their lives. a lot of physical pain, a lot of physical recovery, but also there's that mental and emotional recovery people in the town will need to go through ins weeks and months to come. >> the new news, the mayor of illinois saying the high powered rifle was illegally detained as we detailed over the course of the morning. this man has a long internet trail of violence and a history. they'll be looking to that as well. nbc shaquille brewster, live from highland park, illinois. joining us now, washington bureau chief for the ”chicago sun-times”, lynn sweet, she was there when the highland park shooting began. thanks for spending time with us this morning. i'm so sorry what you saw yesterday. the images that you posted to social media were among the first that we saw of what took place. there's one video in particular where you can see everything change, where there's a ban

marching down the street, and the band suddenly begins to run, the crowd is confused, doesn't know what it's seeing and realizes it had better run too. what was it like to be there? >> well, thank you, willie, and good morning. the sudden dawning on everybody that there was a shooting going on, i was near the beginning of the parade route, a little bit off from the central avenue downtown highland park, so i saw a storm of people, a sea of people all of a sudden running towards the floats that i was standing by, and i said somebody what's going on, there's a shooting. i was told, i saw people hiding in an underground garage, so the enormity of what happened certainly wasn't obvious at that moment, but as i made my way towards the main viewing area, willie, it was a sombering, horrible sight. i saw bloodied bodies, wounded, people being lifted on to

gurneys. it was clear that something at a very large scale had happened just by seeing the number of people who were wounded there. >> lynn. the shooter has been described as shooting from a roof. did you have any sense in realtime of what was happening. you're at a fourth of july parade in highland park, illinois, your first instinct is not there's a shooting, these are fireworks or whatever else is going on with the fourth of july. what was going through your mind personally? >> i was trying to be methodical, take pictures, and i was aware that it was an active shooting incident. what was fairly obvious to me is that the shooter had to have some height because of the clust -- clustering of where the bodies were on the south side of the street, clearly the shooter was someplace on the north side. this was where most of the rounds were fired, and where i

saw most of the pools of blood. i think it wasn't me. i think the crowd got it. even especially those who heard those rapid fire shots, and may i just take a moment here to note, there was that pause that was mentioned in your reporting. that is highly likely to switch out your high capacity cartridges, authorities did say that not only did the person of interest leave a rifle, a high powered rifle on the scene but also there was spent cartridges, so there is plenty of physical evidence that was there to piece together this story of what happened. i mentioned high capacity cartridges because one of the issues that congress has just balked at dealing with was the accessibility of high capacity

cartridges that let it unfold as it does yesterday. in less than a minute, you saw a destruction that one shooter was able to create. >> hey, lynn, good morning, it's jonathan lemire. we're glad you're okay and certainly sorry you had to witness this. particularly in the wake of the mass shooting in the school in uvalde, texas, there's a lot of scrutiny on the response by law enforcement. obviously there will, much delayed, they didn't confront the sheet. from what you could see, and obviously it was chaotic, what was the police response like, certainly we heard earlier, he noted how good the public communication has been from the local law enforcement there too, but in the immediate aftermath of the shooting were you able to see police officers? were they able to respond quickly and get people to safety and look for the shooter? >> absolutely. highland park, give credit to all the authorities in highland park. just by fate would have it, the

beginning of the parade kicked off with fire engines, with their sirens on in a celebratory way, in a fourth of july way. you had a lot of first responders here who were nearby on the scene anyway. law enforcement officials who were there to just help manage a very friendly parade in downtown highland park. there is total communication from the beginning, the emergency operations center was created at a fire house down the street from downtown highland park. there were briefings, there is a massive law enforcement presence that i saw in minutes. because as you showed in your video, the active shooter was someplace to be found, i made my way downtown, highland park, checking out the scene, there were police everywhere, especially from adjoining

suburban communities. it did turn out that the suspect, that the person of interest just got in the car and drove a few miles up toward north chicago and wake forest. the law enforcement response here was so opposite what was going on in texas. this situation was different of course, but this is highland park, illinois, and i think people who run the city, talk about the mayor, i think they put a very high value on communication and letting people know what's going on. you also have a governor, as you saw tammy duckworth, the senator, who would come to the scene because that's just the nature of what they do in something like this. one other thing i want to add, you mentioned that the city of highland park was offering services for people who might have been traumatized. there's a service of healing. i don't know you could heal this

quickly from something like this at one of the local synagogues here in north shore. congregation israel who lost one of their staff members in the slaughter on july 4th. >> yeah, and she taught preschool there and was killed watching a fourth of july parade in this terrible new chapter in the story of mass shootings in america. washington bureau chief for the ”chicago sun-times”, who was there, who witnessed the terrible tragedy in highland park, lynn sweet, thank you so much for being with us. we appreciate you sharing what you saw yesterday. the shooting in highland park was not the only case of gun violence during yesterday's fourth of july festivities. in philadelphia, two law enforcement officers now have been released from the hospital after they were shot during an event last night. police say the officers were working security for a concert and fireworks show near philadelphia's museum of art, when shots rang out of 10:00. the chaos sent the crowd of thousands running away from the area while fireworks lit up the sky behind them. at an overnight press

conference, the police commissioner said investigators still are unsure about where the gunfire came from or whether it even was a targeted attack. gun violence also gripping new york city overnight. at least 13 people were shot. three killed. in a half dozen incidents across new york. just between the hours of 10:00 p.m. and 2:00 a.m. joining us now, the former police commissioner of the city of new york, dermot shay. thank you for being with us. let me start in new york, we'll work backwards from there. summer time is a difficult time and an ugly time for gun violence in major cities and new york as well. what do you make of what you saw last night, those numbers? >> this has always been a busy weekend, particularly in the summer, but july 4th is an all hands on deck with the nypd. officers all the time working late. it's a festive time where you have tons of parties and celebrations, and barbecues, but

unfortunately, you saw last night what we've seen over the years. one or two people can ruin a really nice event, and when you mix alcohol and mix it with illegal firearms, that's what you get. >> let's talk about the illegal firearms in new york city, commissioner: obviously it's been something that has plagued our city of new york for a very long time. what more can be done in new york, and take that out to cities across the country to stop. we're talking mostly about handgun violence in those cases. >> yeah, as i'm sitting here, and we'll get into it with what happened in chicago, i would parse it as two different things when you talk about these mass shootings, and that's a discussion we'll get into shortly. when you talk about the inner city, it tends to be different. it tends to be hand guns. it tends to be repeat criminals committing those crimes, and whatever conversation we're having, i think i speak for everyone here. aren't we tired of having the same conversations over and over

and over? >> yes. >> it seems like, you know, where is it going to be next, is what i'm thinking as i hear these stories. in terms of whether you're talking philadelphia or downtown chicago or new york city, you have very competent law enforcement professionals, prosecutors. i think you have dedicated legislatures as well. they have to come to the table and make small fixes. we've seen the pendulum swing too far in recent years in terms of a movement to not incarcerate anyone. we don't want to overincarcerate, but we don't want to have criminals walking the streets either. i have said that before. that's what i believe we're seeing with this handgun violence in some of the inner cities. small fixes can change immediately. >> it's that revolving door as you know of officers who see the same people out on the street again committing crimes. let's talk about highland park,

commissioner. obviously it's a difficult comparison from new york city to a suburban town outside of chicago of 30,000 people, but there is such a pattern here, isn't there, it's a disaffected young, usually white male with access to a high powered rifle. we learned this morning from the mayor of highland park that it was purchased legally, this gun. the young man that is a suspect, the person of interest leaves behind a long trail online of different very public forums including you tube, his obsession with mass shootings and school shootings, and nihilism and everything else. what do we do about that guy? what do we do about the guy in the supermarket in buffalo, the guy at an elementary school in uvalde, texas. ? >> i think there's three points that continue to come up, and they have to be addressed, the access to these high powered rifles, number one. number two, you know, i get it, i'm a parent, we don't know

everything. who can honestly say when you look at the recent shootings. and the pictures of the individuals committing them that somebody didn't know something was wrong. that's .2, and .3, you know, in a time when we protest everything in this country, and i support it 100%, i truly do, where are the protests that we have web sites and we have ways for these kids or young men to be sharing videos and by any description are horrific, glorifying violence, glorifying killing people. when you look at the access to guns, potential people on the margin being affected by this material, we have to take, in my opinion, a hard look at these web sites and other mediums that are sharing this information. and god forbid if some companies are making money on this material that's being pushed out on the internet because it's by any definition, it's sickening.

>> commissioner, it's a conversation we were having earlier this morning with our reporter who was digging through this suspect's online history. if a company like you tube or a company like discord or twitter, all of these places where it's not like it's on the dark web, this is just out there, fantasizing about mass shootings, what is, in your view, the responsibility of social media companies? they've got algorithms that can do just about everything, they know where you and i have been, where we shopped, and what we want, and what kind of ad we want to look at, and they're telling us that they can't do anything about this? >> frankly, i don't believe it. what you run up against here is one of the things we cherish so much coming off independence day in the great country of ours is the freedoms that we have. you know, there's an occurrence, it may be lawful, free speech and everything that comes with that. that doesn't make it right either. we have a moral obligation to take a hard look at this

material, and honestly, if you have videos that are glorifying and advocating for violence, i mean, i think we have to do better in that regard, otherwise we're going to continue to have this conversation over and over. >> as you said earlier, the people in their lives need to speak up when they see it. former new york city police commissioner, dermot shea, thank you so much. new details about the highland park shooting suspect's online and social media, as we mentioned, includes references to mass shootings and public killings. more on that reporting from nbc's ben collins, and senate majority whip dick durbin of illinois will be our guest, and called yesterday's violence, nothing short of horrific. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. horrific. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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you picked up your kid and you put him in the garbage can. >> yeah, my little brother, who's 4, him, who's 5, and my puppy, i pull them all three in the garbage dumpster, and asked them to watch them, and i ran back, and when i ran back, there was the bodies on the ground. >> my god, putting kids in a garbage dumpster to protect them from a mass shooting. that was a witness to yesterday's shooting in highland park, illinois, describing the moments after a gunman opened fire during a fourth of july parade. we are learning more today about the man police are calling a person of interest. joining us now with those details, senior reporter for nbc news, ben collins. ben, you have been digging through this man's online history. what did you find? >> yeah, so bobby crimo was on the internet known as a wake, a rapper on the internet. this wasn't a small time kind of thing. usually where you see these mass

killers, they sort of appear in the public for the first time at their mass killing. that was not the case with this killer. he had music videos where he graphically depicted school shootings and being in shootouts with the cops. there were cartoons of him being in shootouts with the cops. he had a spotify account with tens of thousands of plays between that and you tube. he had his own discord server, which is basically a message board or a chat group where people in that server talked about political nihilism, about political murder and things like that. this man was part of a much larger community that ties back to places like that are obsessed with mass death and nihilism in general, and the idea that the only way out of life in general if you're a young man is this sort of thing, mass death, to contribute your name to this culture of mass killing.

>> so ben, help me out here, and help our viewers out. you're describing explicit stuff that was up on you tube that was on discord, other prominent social media channels. they always tell us they're checking things, and taking down violent imagery, all those other things, they have algorithms that can look for it. how does this stuff number one stay up, and number two, nobody take notice and alert someone, how does that work? >> i have a hard time believing anyone in his life that didn't see the red flags in real life. this manmade a music video where he, you know, he had a set of a classroom where he did a school shooting, he was dropping bullets within the classroom and things like that. if you were someone in that person's life, you probably want to step in there, i'm just saying. unfortunately this is not a thing that's easy to predict or protect. there are a lot of people making school shooting art or, you know, graphic depictions and

violent imagery on the internet. he was a power user on a specific web site that was, you know, entirely devoted to videos of gruesome death, things like beheadings, his last post was a few days ago where he posted a beheading video on an internet web site where, you know, thousands of people use it. those thousands of people are not all going to commit a mass killing on the fourth of july. so that's the issue here is that, you know, we are -- as americans, we are allowed to make these graphic depictions of horrific things that should not necessarily put you on the radar of defense. the problem is when you start collecting ammo and people in your life start to see this, they have to step in, and that did not happen here. >> ben, it's jonathan, we have a similar tale with the buffalo shooter who also had an extensive social media and

online presence, which he talked about violence, and warning signs that were so blatant. but yet missed. and your point is well made. there's only so much law enforcement can do. but can you tell us what efforts there are underway, like what sort of surveillance or monitoring they might have on these sites, on this discourse, and is there a certain thing that would trigger intervention? is it a direct threat? how does this work? i think right now, you probably have a lot of people watching this, so deeply frustrated that the signs are so out in the open, yet nothing was done. >> yeah, this is a new kind of thing. does this fit in the idea of, you know, a terror group? it's really unclear. you know, it's not like patriot front, those near nazis that march, that get out of a u haul, they march on mass to protest specific things they don't like. these are prescribe who describe themselves as lone wolves, as having no real community that meet together on the internet to talk about how horrible things

are for them, and how the only way out is to try to one up the previous mass shooting. i am sure there's some sort of, you know, fbi or law enforcement response to this that it is ongoing. but it is probably not as advanced as traditional terror cells. he pushed things that were closer to an aesthetic than a traditional group i would say. he made these music videos to fit this this larger thing called the fascist, you would say like retro wave, kind of music. he was trying to fit into that community. he was trying to fit into the fascist online spaces on the internet with these music videos, this what i would call like black pills, the idea that death is the only way out, to them, society is a joke. death is the only way out. how do you exactly drill that down to who exactly is going to, you know, commit a mass murder. it's really difficult, but it's

a completely new set of problems here that we've had in the last couple of years as people got more and more deeply into very specific subcultures on the internet, and some of those are incredibly violent. >> nbc's ben collins, great reporting as always. thank you so much for bringing it to us today. we appreciate it. coming up, our next guest calls yesterday's shooting in illinois, nothing short of horrific. we'll speak with the senior senator, majority whip dick durbin who met with first responders in highland park yesterday. that's straight ahead on "morning joe." highland park foe eosinophilic asthma. not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occured. yesterday. that's straight ahead on that's straight ahead on "morning joe." back pain, and fatigue. ask your asthma specialist about a nunormal with nucala.

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every search you make, every click you take, every move you make, every step you take, i'll be watching you. the internet doesn't have to be duckduckgo is a free all in one privacy app with a built in search engine, web browser, one click data clearing and more stop companies like google from watching you, by downloading the app today. duckduckgo: privacy, simplified. welcome back to "morning joe." joe recently sat down with best selling author, malcolm glad well to talk about his book titled "the bomber mafia, the dream of temptation and the longest night of the second world war," it is out in paperback,s remarkable story of a group of strategists who

forever changed military history and the world. >> i started an audio company with my friend jacob bestberg and we sort of specialize in creating these new kinds of audio books that are immersive and have lots of interview tape, that are almost like audio documentaries, and the story of the bomber mafia is such a, i don't know, it's such a fantastic story, i feel like it works in any form, so we thought, you know, a book would be just as powerful as the audio book. i continue to be amazed. it was a great untold story from the second world war. i think there was, and that's the story of the bomber mafia. >> you know, i've thought so much of the bomber mafia, and one of the reasons why i bought the book and also downloaded it is because obviously we're seeing these unguided missiles going into apartments in kyiv, going into shopping malls, and it made me reflect back on the

stories that i remember. we all of course remember hiroshima and nagasaki, but i remember those horrid tokyo bombing raids. i remember reading about dresden, i remember reading about where we would fire bomb huge swaths of cities. and i always thought, well, it was the 1940s, we really didn't have any other choice. of course the bomber mafia actually explains how we did. could you go into it? >> yeah, so there's a -- it's a story of this group of highly idealistic brilliant young men who were at maxwell air force base in alabama in the 1930s, and became convinced that the bomber, the sort of advent of these fast, high flying bombers, would end also the advent of some of the beginnings of precision bombing, the idea that you could actually drop a bomb

pretty close to your intended target. they felt those two facts would change warfare forever, and they bring this incredibly idealistic technological fantasy to the second world war. and try and ultimately fail to kind of transform the second world war on those lines. but now of course we see, you know, the -- we're in the world that they imagined 80 years ago. so it's like they were far ahead of their time, which is part of what makes them so interesting. you know, their struggle to bring this vision of how just by relying on a bomber, and just by dropping bombs precisely where you wanted, you could transform now. the struggle of how they tried to make that real during first the european bombing campaigns, and then the bombing campaigns over japan is a kind of -- it's an amazing heartbreaking

fascinating story. >> you know, i grew up, loved reading, tom wolf's stuff, i loved the movie, loved all of it, and you got the idea that these cowboys, when it came to aviation, it was the 1950s. it was the 1960s. it was in california. but you -- you actually find these band of brothers from central alabama at maxwell, and i think what shocked me so much, not only that it was i passed maxwell air force base driving it a hundred times, had no idea what happened there, i think what shocked me most was how early this was. back when these guys were imagining the future we're going to live in 80 years from now, people kind of looked at pilots and people who were flying planes, kind of quirky. and sort of military dead,

right? >> yeah, well, the reason they were at maxwell air force base in montgomery is that originally, you know, the air force was originally just a division of the army, of course, through the end of the second world war, and so here's a group of young men who are obsessed with this brand new technology, the airplane, and they're chafing against the traditionalism of the army. people think of the airplane as a toy, a gadget, as, you know, marginal to the task of waging war. but this group, the bomber mafia think that's wrong, this is something that should transform everything we think about. so they're based in virginia, and they realize, we can't dream and push the envelope and develop these technologies if we're under the thumb of the army. let's try and go as far as possible from army headquarters

as we can and where do they go? montgomery. as far as you can get from washington, d.c. right? so there's a reason they chose that, which is they wanted to be in a place so far out of the way that nobody would ever bother them. they used to always say, here are these guys, working their way in the 30s to kind of come up with -- to fine tune precision bombing. they would always say, if the guys back in washington knew what we were doing in montgomery, they would fire us all. they really thought of themselves as renegades. >> speaking of renegades, and speaking of someone who changed the world as we know it, who changed warfare as we know it, and created the world we live in now as far as warfare goes, talk about a quirky character. i want to read people. you're such a masterful story teller. these are some of my favorite

lines in the book. let me read it. he wore a three-piece suit, had short white hair with a little cow lick, a thriving mustache, and heavy lidded eyes underwritten with deep lines as if he hadn't slept in years. his nickname was old man dynamite. he drank coach by the gallon, lived on steak. explain how this dutch scientist changed the world, and as you said, nobody remembered. no statue, no museums, no leading biographies written about him. >> so if you look back at the second world war, what were the biggest projects the military undertook in the second world war? well, number one is obviously the manhattan project, right, we spent billions on that. number two was -- was the big bombers. we developed for the first time in this second world war. number three was a little analog computer the size of a football.

it was actually called the football that was developed by this highly eccentric dutch engineer named carl norton under conditions of great secrecy in downtown manhattan which was a device that was intended to allow the bombardier to drop a bomb from 25,000 feet with perfect accuracy. so this was -- you think of this, you know, well before gps, well before radar, well before any of that stuff, norton creates this thing. it's a little, like i said, an analog computer, and you would enter in 20 different things, your speed, the temperature, the, you know, your location, i mean, any variable you can imagine that might affect the flight of a bomb dropped from an airplane. and this device would tell you when you should -- what is the optimal moment to release the

gates and drop your bombs. norton was convinced this thing worked and it did work in theory, and it worked if you were practicing, you know, under perfect conditions in the proving grounds in utah, where the sun is shining and there's no enemy planes flying at you. what the bomber mafia discover, though, when they take their prize bit of technological gadget into actual combat, it's a lot harder to use it to drop the bombs with the same kind of accuracy. it's a beautiful story about one of the many great things in this, you know, there's always in any era in history a group of dreamers who believe passionately in the potential of technology to transform the way we behave, the way we conduct our affairs. we have it now in silicone valley, right? people who think that you can

come up with a bit of software, and it will solve the problems of the world. well, norton is the guy you read the passage about. he's the silicone valley visionary of 1940. that's what he is. he's such a familiar figure to me. you know, i feel like i see that person every day now in the news. he's the elon musk, if you like, of the second world war. >> it is a remarkable book, and i hope those who haven't had a chance to read it, to listen to it, will do it, of course. there's a tragic choice that's made that ends with the fire bombing of tokyo, which of course you start the decision that was made by the military, the tragic decision that was made by the military. >> joe's conversation with malcolm gladwell for the

paperback release of gladwell's book "the bomber mafia, a dream, a temptation and the longest night of the second world war," the other project is a limited podcast, the american runners who raised their fists in protest during the 1968 olympics. that part of joe's conversation with malcolm gladwell is next when "morning joe" comes right back. new poligrip power malcolm gladwell is next hold and seal. clinically proven to give strongest hold, plus seals out 5x more food particles. when "morning joe" comes right back

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every search you make, every click you take, every move you make, every step you take, i'll be watching you. the internet doesn't have to be duckduckgo is a free all in one privacy app with a built in search engine, web browser, one click data clearing and more stop companies like google from watching you, by downloading the app today. duckduckgo: privacy, simplified. joe." in a moment we'll go live to highland park, illinois, where a fourth of july celebration ended in terror after a mass shooting left six people dead and dozens more injured. tom llamas is on the ground there. and plus pete williams will bling us the latest on the federal investigation into that attack. but first we want to turn back to joe's conversation with author malcolm gladwell whose

new podcast tackles a iconic moment more than 50 years ago that resonates today. >> i was five years old and the mexico olympics were the first that i saw. i don't know if i remember when tommy smith and lee evans and john carlos put their fists up in the air. but i know, it not ome horrified my family, it horrified polite society. you're supposed to salute the flag. and, you know, of course, as we get older and older and move further and further away from that, you just sit there and at least i do and gasp and go, how young they were on an international stage making a remarkable, remarkable political statement at a time when it was a dangerous thing to do. and you understand what heroes

they were. but you talk about the track program where they came from and the remarkable story behind that moment in '68. >> yes. so, it was a podcast that we did, which is simply you have iconic photographs, which we all know, have seen of tommy smith and john carlos on the stand of the -- in mexico city games and their fists are raised, they have a black glove in their hand and their head is bowed during the national anthem. and at the time, as you say, it was kind of the world was watching and people were aghast in a they were bringing politics to the olympics, not only that, they were representing the symbolism of the black power movement. in what was supposed to be this

kind of sacrosanct amateur sporting event. so we tell our podcast, the story behind that photograph. who were these men and where did they come from and why did they protest and what was the fallout from the protest. and it turns out, you know, all of the sprinters who were involved in the protest in 1968, the two gold medal winners, lee smith and lilly evans and tom smith and john carlos, they all came from san jose state track program. and their coach there turns out to be probably one of the greatest coaches of the 20th century. i would put him up there with john wooden and bill belichick. without question. and harry edwards, who is the guy who inspired that protest, also went to san jose state. they all were on the same track

team together. all coached by the same guy. so this event of international importance all begins in a sleepy commuter school in downtown san jose. it is like it is so weird. like, i didn't -- i've been doing track my whole life, no cluz what so ever that this whole thing begins in one little institution with one coach, has no money. kind of a shoe string operation. and one coach produced one record holder after another and harry edwards imbowes those guys with a sense of moral purpose that they should use their platform and their -- to say something about the condition of african americans in the united states. it is incredible story. >> and just extraordinary. and it -- the fact that it started at a second rate track program at the time, that they all -- like you said, at a place

nobody knew. what came from this school, it reminds me of a mass of beatles fan and the question that i always ask, is how did john lennon and paul mccartney grew up on the same side of liverpool and they just bumped into each other when they were 15 or 16 years old at a wedding and changed history. >> both of these things are great things that come from out of the way places. >> joe's conversation with malcolm gladwell podcast titled legacy of speed. coming up next, dick durbin is next. plus we'll go live to the white house for the president's response to the latest mass shooting in america. "morning joe" is coming right back. in america.

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welcome back to "morning joe." we're just turning to the top of the hour here on the east coast. it is 8:00 in the morning in highland park, illinois, where we are learning new details about the mass shooting the a fourth of july parade that killed six people and injured 38 others just outside of chicago. authorities took a 22-year-old suspect into custody late yesterday following a brief car chase just hours after the attack. and just a short time ago, this morning the mayor of highland park revealed new information on the "today" show about the weapon used in the attack. >> i don't know where the gun came from. but i do know that it was legally obtained. and i think at some point this nation needs to have a