but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have long term consequences. now as you're thinking about all the vaccines your teen might need make sure you ask your doctor if your teen is missing meningitis b vaccination. hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in the east, any moment now authorities will provide an update on the mass shooting in highland park, illinois. the most uniquely american holiday, celebration was marred by the most uniquely american epidemic. the devastating scourge of gun violence, this suburban chicago community is now reeling from a massacre at a fourth of july parade. here's how their hometown paper, the chicago tribune describes what happened yesterday.

quote, on an idyllic summer morning from a rooftop high above the highland park independence parade, a gunman aimed down at the floats and lawn chairs and strollers and opened fire. the high school marching band's members sprinted for their lives. bystanders scooped up young children and fled. in all six people were killed. some two dozen others were injured, either by rifle fire or in a stampede away from the scene. the victims range in age from 8 to 85. just hours ago, officials announced that a seventh person has lost their life. the deceased include a 76-year-old grandfather, named nicholas toledo. "the new york times" reports this about him. toledo did not want to attend the highland park fourth of july parade, but his disabilities required that he be around someone full-time, and the family wasn't going to skip the parade, even going so far as to position chairs for a choice viewing spot at midnight the night before.

mr. toledo is sitting in his wheelchair along the parade route between his son and a nephew when the bullets started flying. more than eight hours after the shooting, chicago police arrested the man believed to be behind the massacre. you can see him here being taken into custody. it was after what police described as a short pursuit. the investigation, which police questioned is in its early stages is now facing mountains of questions including how the shooter pulled off such a devastating attack and why he did it. police say they have yet to determine a motive. they described the targets of the shooting this way, quote, completely random with no indications that the shooting was racially or religiously motivated. at a press conference today, officials say that the shooter purchased multiple weapons legally prior to the shooting. the gun used in monday's attack is described by authorities this way as a high powered rifle similar to an ar-15. it was actually left on the scene. it was the primary piece of evidence tracing police back to the shooter.

police also said that the suspect had been planning yesterday's attack for weeks, and they added this. >> during the attack, crimo was dressed in woman's clothing and investigators do believe he did this to conceal his facial tattoos and his identity and help him during the escape with the other people who were fleeing the chaos. during the attack, we believe that crimo fired more than 70 rounds from this rifle into the crowd of innocent people. following the attack, crimo exited the roof. he dropped his rifle, and he blended in with the crowd and he escaped. he walked to his mother's home who lived in the area and he blended right in with everybody else as they were running around almost as he was an innocent spectator as well. >> this is where we start our coverage today, msnbc senior national correspondent and anchor christian sing is live, also joining us nbc news

investigations correspondent, tom winter, a former senator and msnbc political analyst claire mccaskill is here, and former fbi intelligence agent. i want to ask you, i watched your hours that you anchored on the scene. tell us about what we know about both the victims and the survivors today. >> so i think i'll start because you mentioned the chicago tribune with this headline because it says holiday horror, and you see that there's a police officer who is covering his face. he cannot believe clearly what he saw, nor can any of the people that i've talked to here. some of the victims, the injured were as young as 8 years old. there were victims who were killed who were as old as 88, a man who every day still went into the office and did his job. this is not a community, nicolle, where people come expecting this in one way. they come here because it's safe.

there have been two murders here in the last two decades. this is a community that almost a decade ago passed a ban on the kind of weapons that police say were used in the shooting that happened just a block down from where i'm standing. you can still see the crime tape, but there is a sea change that i have seen since 1999 when i began covering school shootings at columbine. in those years right after, people in communities like this would always say to me, i can't believe it happened here. that's not what they say anymore. what they say is what i heard from larry bloom, a resident who like so many years before this came to the parade yesterday, take a listen, nicolle. >> this is something that i every year i've just -- i thought i can't believe this has not happened here yet based on the temperature of this country and some of the demographics of our town kind of invites that and that type of activity, and

hence the fact that, you know, we all came out. it's a town full of people that come out and appreciate a day and pretty much anyone within about 50 feet of me were likely to be murdered or seriously injured because somebody was -- had fire power that no civilian should have. if you stood under that and not knowing where all that was coming from, there's no reasonable person who would think that that is something that a civilian should have, that type of power and delivery system of that type of power. >> you sound angry. >> it's very -- it's upsetting. again, it's unbelievable and believable that we're doing this. >> reporter: and you can understand the anger when you hear the testimonials of people like a mother who grabbed a 2-year-old toddler who she said was covered in blood. when you talk to the parents who parent after parent after parent in the hours after this said it was their child who told them

what to do, their kids have it so engrained in them, this active shooter training, and in fact, i talked to another local resident, nicolle, who said to me last night after grabbing his 7-year-old twins and bringing them to safety, at 3:00 in the morning his son woke up having had a nightmare and said, daddy, someone is trying to kill me. help me. a 7-year-old boy, and then said he wanted to meet the shooter because maybe then he could help him understand that what he did was bad. it is one thing to have active shooter training and teach children how to deal with this situation, how to deal with the aftermath is another thing altogether, and that is what this community is dealing with at this hour, nicolle. >> it's an amazing sea change, kris, to be on the ground and for people to say not i can't believe it happened here, but it

was a matter of time. it's just a remarkable commentary on the collective failure to protect even the most innocent and innocuous gatherings. were there any talks today about canceling this parade or about increasing security around other soft targets in the town? >> reporter: well, there were immediately. other things in other communities were canceled. there was a terror that went through this entire area. folks know this place. they know it's safe, and so there were beaches, nicolle, that were closed. there were other fireworks that didn't go off, other community gatherings that were immediately canceled because suddenly you're reminded that even though it's independence day, even though it's a day of celebration, it's always a threat now it seems. people worry to get to anyplace where there's going to be a large gathering of people. and so, yes, a lot of people

here are saying, you know, i can't believe that we still live in a country where there is not a recognition that all of these places are potentially targets. we live in a country where there are more guns than there are people, and, again, this is a town that is definitely democratic as several people said to me today we lean toward the more liberal democratic, but as one person said to me, you don't have to be the person to ask the question why are we in a country where weapons of war are so readily available? these were, we believe, legally purchased weapons and where a doctor who had to treat the wounded and the dead said that these were indeed war wounds. >> tom winter, we are moments away from an update from law enforcement on the ground there. tell us what we have learned so far and what we expect to hear at this news conference starting

a few minutes from now. >> sure, i think we're probably getting close to some charging decisions in this case. you don't have to be a law enforcement reporter to figure out that we're probably looking at seven counts of homicide here. we know that seven people are now dead with seventh person dying today. obviously weapons charges are a possibility. this town does have an assault rifle ban, and so perhaps there's going to be charges there, believed to be misdemeanor charges that can be brought. so those are the types of things we might get if they decide to charge today, though we did learn from our last briefing that this person who's referred to is robert or bobby crimo, that he has been speaking with police, and so if that dialogue is ongoing, there's no reason to charge to somebody and to stop that. we don't know to the extent of which he may or may not be cooperating. we do know that he purchased several weapons in the last seve years, all legally

according to police, that was as you mentioned at the top of the show, one of the kind of primary clues or pieces of evidence they were able to use to be able it to figure out who did this because he dressed in disguise as a woman wearing potentially -- and you're looking at the image right there, potentially some sort of a wig, definitely different types of clothing and appears to have taken steps to apply makeup or do something to take away or at least conceal, i should say, the tattoos that he does have on his face. so that's something police say he did to evade capture so that he could blend in with the crowd after he climbed up on top of this building and began firing. they say it was an effort and a plan that had been in motion for at least several weeks to conduct this attack and as you noted, is not something according to law enforcement, at least at this stage of the investigation, i think it's important to note that given the enormous volume of social media

posts, information that's online, information that may be on his phone or phones, information that could be on computers. we just don't know yet. and according to police, they don't know yet the totality of information and things that he may have written or published or videos he could have put together that exist, and so until that is known, it's not yet known whether or not there's anything on there that points this towards a hate crime or some other ideologically driven crime. at least at the moment, there's no indication of that, nicolle. i think more clarity as far as what he's telling them, this idea of a cell phone that may have been left behind in madison, wisconsin, did he drive there, put that there after the shooting in an effort to throw off police, that would be something that would be interesting to get more detail on. so that's something of the things that we're still working on, so that's where i think this investigation stands at this point is what is he saying, to what extent is he cooperating, and when are we going to get

those charges? that's what's -- that's what's ahead of us as far as developments. and no sort of motive that will come out, of course, will make any sense to the rest of us or certainly the people in that community as far as why this happened at a hometown very americana fourth of july parade. nicolle. >> pete struck, chris and tom are often two of the first journalists at our network that are on the scene of a mass shooting, but there is nothing routine about covering a terrorized town. some of the questions, though, have become routine, and i want to show you some of the journalists posing them about whether or not signs were missed, whether or not the shooter's social media profile is something that should have been handled differently. let me show you some of that q & a. >> have you seen disturbing videos online, were warning

signs missed? >> the question was there's disturbing videos online that have been seen. we are reviewing those. those are going to be a part of any investigation efforts by our task force investigators. we'll look at them and see what they reveal. >> considering the extensive digital trail, the disturbing videos, the about of views garnered, was he known to law enforcement before hand, and if not, why not? >> i can't get into that right now. there have been some law enforcement contacts, nothing of a violent nature. i can't get into the specifics of the context. >> pete struck, just talk about what a suspect like this, how they register on law enforcement, local law enforcement in this case's radar, and what can be done to prevent -- obviously there weren't enough tools in the toolbox to prevent yesterday's tragedy, but i wonder how many people like this suspect are out there. >> well, nicolle, i think it's a pretty daunting problem. i mean, the reality is if you look at social media and if you look at the type of personality that manifests this sort of

behavior, i think there is far more material than there are federal law enforcement officers, state and local law enforcement officers who are able to review that, and the second thing is i don't know given the first amendment as a society we want that level of invasive governmental look into what people are or are not doing online. but all of this discussion is talking about treating the symptoms, the fact of the matter is we have made -- nobody should be surprised and nobody should think it is hard to do something that this suspect did. we have made it easier in the united states to buy a weapon than it is to go to your local animal shelter and adopt a pet. the fact is that he, like many of these other folks we're seeing, these sort of socially alienated 18, 19, 22-year-old awkward white males go into gun shops, lawfully buy, again, not handguns, not a musket, but a weapon designed starting in the vietnam war to be a weapon of war, buy that legally, and in

some cases then turn around some with planning, some without and are able to do it. so i don't -- i'm not surprised that when people look and see posts on social media or youtube videos looking at violence when there are folks that it looks like there clearly was some sort of police interaction perhaps, not of a violent nature but of some sort of other disturbance, i'm not surprised we see that. i wouldn't be surprised to find out more, but i don't think focusing on that we can have as many red flag laws as we want. we can augment mental health programs as much as we want. but at the end of the day, all that is doing is treating the symptoms. the root issue here is the ready access to guns and in particular, the ready access to assault weapons that were designed to be used on battlefield to kill as many people as possible. >> claire mccaskill, we choose to live like this. these are our choices. we send people to congress and

the united states senate who vote this way. this is a choice that was affirmed in the 2020 election with every republican that was sent back, and this is a choice that's very much on the line in november. how do we hold the people who represent us accountable for what is now a country where you can't go to church, can't go to the grocery store, you can't take your children to a fourth of july parade without perhaps talking to your spouse or your partner about body armor. i mean, what do you make of the choices we've made as a country? >>. >> well, as kris said, we have more guns than people in the united states, and i think it's really important to put this in context. we have almost 50% of all of the private weapons in the world in america, 50 -- almost 50%, right around 45 to 50% of every private owned in the entire planet is in america, and i think what pete's saying is really important, and i think

politically it has to move up to the very top of the list because this is mind numbing. it is incredibly painful for us to watch these young men who are isolated, awkward, have spent a lot of time shooting people online. it is incredible that they can walk in a store, buy a military grade weapon, and most importantly, fire off 70 rounds in a very short period of time. i mean, there are all kinds of gun sportsmen around this country. they don't need to fire at a deer 70 times in a minute. this high capacity magazine, the ability to kill a lot of people quickly, the way that you stop one of these shooters is they don't have time to shoot as many people as is happening now with this frequency, and you listed all the people we can't -- where we can't go? how about me being afraid to take my grandchildren to school.

that's how bad it's gotten. >> that's right. i mean, dropoff became another terrifying ritual of being a parent in america. chris jansing, the mayor has become another i'm sure unwilling voice in this conversation about guns. let me show you something that highland park's mayor said on the "today" show this morning about having the conversation we're having right now about guns. >> this tragedy never should have arrived on our door steps, and as a small town, everybody knows somebody who was affected by this directly and of course we're all still reeling. i don't know where the gun came from, but i do know that it was legally obtained, and i think at some point this nation needs to have a conversation about these weekly events involving the murder of dozens of people with legally obtained guns. >> this harrowing reality for

all of us that we just did something that hadn't been done in decades, and that was a bipartisan piece of legislation to do basically something small, but it amounted to more than what has been done in decades, which was nothing. but clearly we're not the only country with six sociopathics, especially of the white male 18 to 22-year-old variety. we're the only country where massacres are so rapid that it feels like every week we have to marshal the four of you and have this conversation. chris, what is it about the weariness that i'm hearing from your sources and the people you've interviewed that should, you know, wake everybody up about how this has become so routine? >> let me say a few stories that i didn't have a chance to earlier. imagine being someone who has small children with them at a fourth of july parade, shots ring out, and to keep them safe,

you leave those young children unattended in a dumpster. that's what one man had to do. imagine being a father with a 2 1/2-year-old child who hands the child off to a complete stranger because his wife had been shot and he wanted to attend to her wounds. now, they were ultimately reunited, but that's what happened, and as i was watching the local news this morning and you mentioned mr. chiledo who was shot and killed in his wheelchair, the local report was that his family who had brought him there -- and this is graphic, and i apologize for that -- but his family was sprayed with his blood. so one of the things that happens now when you talk to people who advocate for the end of readily available assault rifles is that the circle is getting wider and wider and wider. it's getting harder and harder to find someone who has not been directly touched by this kind of

gun violence, whether it's one of the reporters who was on this often whose sisters lives just a couple of blocks away, whether it is someone who you know who lived in or around uvalde, texas, or whether it is someone, frankly, whose child has been traumatized, the 2 1/2-year-old whose mom after uvalde found the child standing on a toilet and who explained in a way that i guess a 2 1/2-year-old can that they had somehow seen that i guess someone, one child in a school shooting had hidden in a stall and stood on the toilet so they could not be seen. that the shooter wouldn't know they were there. so the number of people who were touched by this kind of violence is getting larger and larger,

and so the question then becomes to claire's point and to your question to claire, do they bring more pressure to bear on members of congress to do more than they just did with this latest package of new gun laws. >> tom, we should be just moments away from this latest press conference, and this is a new town that's been targeted by a mass shooting. these are new victims whose loved ones have not yet buried them. this is a fresh horror, but for law enforcement, it is a daily reality of facing these weapons in the hands of criminals and sick sociopathics like the alleged shooter from yesterday. what is the view from law enforcement about the crisis that we're facing with access to guns and these kinds of guns specifically? >> well, i think there's a whole host of things. i mean, i think first off there's a feeling just of the overall sense of violence in this country right now, grant it

the homicides and shootings are trending a little bit lower so far. tell that to the 13 people shot in new york just over the course of last night, four homicides including one homicide by stabbing, and tell that to the two police officers in philadelphia who were shot last night for just standing and trying to provide security for july 4th celebrations there and the people that had to flee from that. we have dozens of people shot in other cities. there was a shooting in gary, indiana, i just got a message from my colleague jonathan dienst, ten shot there, three fatally, and that's not even something that's part of our discussion today. that's not a slight against the victims there, but it just talks about the totality of the violence that we are seeing nationwide, and so i think you're seeing police officers that are at this point quite wary of the situations that they're involving themselves in, quite wary of who is around them and what is around them, and you

know, we have to -- pete struck talked about it from a standpoint, from an investigative standpoint as far as the decisions we need to make in this country, what do we want to be looking into? for police, what do we want our police to look like and how do we want them to be presented at these types of public events? we're getting to a point -- we did the barricades for the cars because of the isis threat. we did -- we did have police officers now at least have ar-style weapons in their vehicles. that's what occurs in many jurisdictions and an increasingly amount of them in this country. so now, do we want the police officers that are at parades to be in full body armor with ar-15s with the bear cat type trucks or military surplus type trucks around so that they're ready to respond more quickly in larger numbers with the same type of fire power that is being legally purchased and being brought to bear on them and innocent people like the

gentleman who was in the wheelchair who just happened to be at the parade with his family and was shot and killed to death. so those are the types of decisions that we need to make in this country, and it wasn't so long ago that people said, no, we don't want those heavy weapons teams, we don't want that continual s.w.a.t. presence, we don't want our tax dollars going to those types of vehicles. what are we willing to tolerate? i'm a reporter. i can share with you the information. it's up to the people that are watching this to decide and to determine how they want their society to look like, but that's the direction that we're going because i think increasingly police officers are going to feel like, you know what? i'm vulnerable out here on the street with a 9 millimeter or a 40 cal bullet in a pistol versus an ar-15 rifle with 20 round magazines with somebody shooting from an elevated place. i think law enforcement is increasingly frustrated, we hear after these shootings continuously this was a troubled kid, or that was the person i

thought was going to shoot up the school one day. when is somebody going to pick up the phone, not that law enforcement's track record in that regard is perfect, there have been numerous instances where law enforcement has received information and not the right steps were followed to take away a person's gun. i'm thinking of the situation that we recently had in buffalo, new york, where a red flag law could have been invoked there keeping weapons potentially away from that shooter, but there's just not enough of a dialogue of saying, okay, if the person next to you is posting something or you know somebody who's posting information that's concerning, when do we bring see something, say something out of the al qaeda era into the era of daily life here in this country. so those are all questions that i pose, but those are all questions that are being talked about in law enforcement circles, and of course the incredibly difficult balance of what is first amendment protected speech, one of the corner stones of our republic versus what do we have now that we've never had before.

we've gone far beyond the printing press. we've gone into the internet world with this amplifier and loud speaker that is just overwhelming, and you really are picking your poison if you're somebody who's got a mental illness, am i into isis, am i into far right, you know, nazi extremism? am i somebody who just wants to glorify previous mass shootings and think that life is a video game? you have all those things at play here. i think our colleague ben collins has done tremendous work today pointing out the extremist nature of the postings that have been put out there by this individual, and it's something i think we really need to pay a lot of attention to because this goes far beyond very simple ideologies, and it is not as fringe as i think all of us hope that it is. it's something that i think we're going to have to pay attention to. there's just not enough cops, not enough agents to look at all this material day-to-day. again, removing the constitutional component that pete referenced.

>> but pete, to your broader point, there are people that look at violence porn, whether it's of the isis variety or just run-of-the-mill domestic violent extremism in every country on the planet. we're the only country where i think all five of us have together had conversations about massacre at an elementary school, a massacre at a grocery store in buffalo, and regular mass shootings every single week, and at the root of that is the access to weapons of war. i wonder what you think about tom's commentary about what cops are talking about. i mean, do you think we're too far out from people wanting to send, i don't know, i mean, is it time for people to make their own security decisions and not go to parades and not go to sporting events and not go to -- i mean, what should people take from the frequency and the randomness and the inability

both for first amendment reasons, second amendment reasons to protect ordinary citizens from doing the most mundane of things? >> well, nicolle, i think you highlighted exactly the point. the one differentiator between us in the united states and the rest of the developed world is the easy access to weapons, and i absolutely understand what tom was talking about, concerns about law enforcement and what they're facing on the street. you know, i carried in my weapon in the fbi at different times -- >> pete, i'm sorry to interrupt you, let me pick this up with you as soon as they finish. they're at the microphones. let's listen. >> on july 4th, 2022, at approximately 10:15 a.m., highland park police were on the scene of an active shooter in the area of central avenue and 2nd street. highland park. while an independence day parade was in progress. the county coroner's office was notified and responded to the scene. it is with a heavy heart that i

bring to you the names of the victims of that tragedy. 64-year-old katherine goldstein of highland park, 35-year-old irina mccarthy of highland park, 37-year-old kevin mccarthy of highland park, 63-year-old jacqueline sondheim of highland park, 88-year-old steven strauss of highland park, 78-year-old nicholas toledo zaragasa of morelless, mexico. we have been notified there is a seventh victim that died at a hospital located outside of lake county. i will now give the microphone to the mayor of highland park, mayor nancy rotoring.

>> the highland park community like so many before us is devastated. it is impossible to imagine the pain of this kind of tragedy until it happens in your backyard. our focus the last 36 hours has been on the perpetrator of this heinous crime. as we now put the names and faces of those lost yesterday, family, friends, guests, long-time residents of the highland park community, our focus shifts to the victims and those left behind. this crisis has been devastated entire families and our community in a single moment, and we know it will take time to heal. on behalf of the community and the world that mourns alongside us, i offer loved ones of those who passed our condolences. i thank those who have organized prayer vigils to help support the weight of our shared sorrow. we've listed those on our

website, and while we're hurting, we know that we will continue to come together and support each other as we always do in difficult times. we are highland park strong. >> thank you, mayor. there were some questions at our last press briefing about prior contacts that law enforcement may have had with crimo iii. we've done some research, gathered some reports and i'm going to relay some information from two prior instances that occurred here in highland park. the first was in april of 2019. an individual contacted highland park police department a week after learning of mr. crimo attempting suicide. this was a delayed report, so highland park still responded to the residence a week later, spoke with crimo, spoke with crimo's parents and the matter was being handled by mental health professionals at that time. there was no law enforcement action to be taken.

it was a mental health issue handled by those professionals. the second occurred in september of 2019. a family member reported that crimo said he was going to kill everyone and crimo had a collection of knives. the police responded to his residence. the police removed 16 knives, a dagger and a sword from crimo's home. at that time there was no probable cause to arrest. there were no complaints that were signed by any of the victims. the highland park police department, however, did immediately notify the illinois state police of the incident. shifting gears a little bit, talking about the investigation itself. the community has been absolutely terrific with providing information to law enforcement investigators throughout this, but we're asking the community to -- if they're able to dig a little deeper and recall some specific instances from the events based on video surveillance recovered

by our investigators, we're very certain that there was a female witness who saw crimo drop an object inside of a red blanket behind ross's at 6:25 central avenue immediately following the shooting. we've not been able to identify this witness yet, but we're asking if you are the witness and you are hearing this, please call 800-call-fbi. investigators really would like to speak to you about this. we're also asking that anyone with any firsthand information about crimo relative to this investigation also call 800-call-fbi. please keep in mind, though, we're asking for firsthand information that could be relevant that could help investigators. we're not asking for third-party information or information heard through the grapevine, only if it's firsthand knowledge that you have. to update the victim count including those that have perished, there are approximately 45 injured or

deceased from this incident. at about 5:30 this evening, the state's attorney's office will be holding a press conference, and we anticipate an announcement of charges at that time. with that we'll take some questions. >> obviously people are going to look at this and say this could have been an opportunity to stop what we saw here. your view on that and how are these things supposed to be handled? how do you stop a shooter if someone's calling police saying, hey, we have a problem. >> the question is the response to the september incident. the police responded there. police can't make an arrest unless there is probable cause to make an arrest or somebody is willing to sign complaints regarding an arrest. absent of those things, the police don't have power to detain somebody. now if there is an issue where there is the necessity to iran voluntarily commit somebody to the hospital, that's an option, but that wasn't an option at that time. it didn't fall in that category. but nonetheless, highland park police did notify the illinois

state police of that [ inaudible question ] >> the threat was directed at family inside of the home. >> even buy a gun when -- [ inaudible question ] >> so in order to purchase a gun legally in illinois, one has to possess a foid card, that's a process solely managed by the state police, and i'm not able to speak to that process. >> you mentioned how much the community has been helpful in this case with videos, with sending information to you guys. so many people i've been talking to are asking how can this be prevented in the future. given the amount of social media posts, the sort of disturbing content that he had posted, would you recommend that community members in this community or others flag police to that kind of information? you said you weren't aware of it

beforehand. were you -- if you were aware of it, could this have prevented something like this considering the red flag laws and other laws in the state? >> so the question is essentially social media, if we had known about some of the posts would we have investigated, do we encourage the community to report those, and the answer is absolutely. if the public sees something that is concerning online with anybody, they should notify the social media network it's posted on. they should notify local law enforcement, and that's when we get involved and we conduct an investigation. law enforcement's going to do everything they possibly can to ensure the community is kept safe, but if we don't know about it, it's hard for us to investigate. >> under the red flag laws in this state, would this potentially have been enough for you to confiscate weapons or take some sort of action. >> in the case of september, the knives that crimo possessed they were confiscated and secured for safe keeping. >> the rifles and considering the social media posts and videos we have seen. >> at that time there was no information he possessed any firearms, any rifles. would that be enough if he's

making threats? it's a case by case basis. i don't want to speak broadly to the issue. it depends on the circumstances. there are circumstances where law enforcement does have that authority to obtain a seizure order, but it is situational dependent every single time. >> there's a report that crimo visited a synagogue here in town during passover. do you know anything about that? can you speak to that? >> that's nothing i know about at this time. >> discussed whether -- weapons the rifles were legally purchased in this general chicago area, but can you specifically say when they were purchased? >> they were purchased after that september incident. i don't have the exact dates. i believe it was in 2020 and 2021. >> discussing whether we had any additional information on motivation, you said not yet. is there any new information in that regard -- >> investigators have been really tirelessly working since crimo was taken into custody trying to determine motive.

at this point there is no definitive motive that he had. >> is he talking? >> he has been talking to investigators. >>. [ inaudible question ] >> i don't have that information. >> the object you said was dropped behind ross, do you know what that was? >> it was the rifle, and it was in a red blanket. >> do you have any information that he may have tried after the shooting tried to check himself into a hospital, lutheran general hospital as an injured person? >> no, we do not have that information. >> you said that involuntarily committing him was not an option. can you explain that? what are the options for officers? >> based on that time, based on those circumstances, that was not an option. it did not fall in that category. >> what would it have required? >> again, it's case by case specific. >> were irina and kevin mccarthy husband and wife? brother and sister? what's their relationship? >> i'd have to get back to you on that. >> the handguns you talked about

earlier, how many were there? were they legally purchased? anything on that, the count, the sheer number? >> so he had purchased five. five firearms, five firearms, and that includes rifles and handguns as well. >> so the other three legally purchased and they were hand guns? >> there were a combination of which, i don't have the exact count, at least two rifles, some pistol and possibly a shot gun. those were seize the at his father's home pursuant to a search warrant yesterday. >> what was the size of the knife collection, and did he ever get it back after the incident? >> would have to do a little research on that. >> over what time period were those weapons purchased? >> approximately a year. >> is there any information about that seventh victim who passed away in age? >> not yet, we're working on obtaining information. >> what county is that victim in? >> cook. >> if the charges are filed around 5:00, will there be an arraignment likely tomorrow morning or? >> that would be my -- yes. >> you don't know a time. >> if charges are filed today,

it's very likely he'll appear in court tomorrow morning. >> do you have more evidence -- or more explanation of what you found in the car? you said the rifle was found in the blanket and what you found on the roof, i guess more specifics on that. >> evidence technicians are collecting a lot of shell casings, but as far as anything of evidentiary value, that's the extent. >> and in the car, rifles -- >> in the car there was a rifle. >> anything else? >> was it loaded? >> >> i would have to check and get back to you. [ inaudible question ] >> he was -- he drove around to a number of places. he drove into wisconsin, then he came back into illinois. that's when the alert person who recognized the vehicle description from the press briefing called 911, and he was stopped. >> chris, are you able to seek any federal investigation, any possible federal indictment where he would be brought into the federal system? >> so the fbi, the atf, our federal partners, the department of justice are very involved in this case. i can't speak for them. all i can say is they are on the

ground working with us in lock step, and i can take two more. >> do you know where -- >> back to the september incident, police notified state police, what was the -- state police at this point, and was there any monitoring given what had happened of his social media counts then? >> do you want to speak to that? >> my name is sergeant delilah garcia, i'm public information officer, deputy chief. so basically in september of 2019, isp did receive information from highland park police department, and at that time the individual named in the report did not have a foid card or anything to revoke or to review, so at that point we -- that foid part of it was our stance on that. >> and there was nothing to say this person shouldn't be able to get -- is there any mechanism to say this person shouldn't be able to get a foid card in the future? was any action like that taken?

>> at that time basically -- so he didn't have a pending application, so there was nothing to review at that time when we got that notification. we didn't know, you know, a few months later something else would happen. >> what would -- have to have seen to try to involuntarily commit someone based on those facts? >> involuntarily commit someone? >> to follow up on after looking at the facts was that an option you considered, this person might need to be involuntarily committed? >> there was no foid application at the time. >> came to you, this person had knives. your role was only whether you had a firearm. >> right. the state law, does it allow you to flag someone and say, hey, we're flagging this person. they should be -- are you allowed to say this person can't get a foid card. >> more questions regarding that

procedure from the state police are going to be forthcoming. we know there's going to be questions coming on procedure, how foid card applications work, when notifications come in from local law enforcement, that is much better answered by the state police. it's very hard to speak to their policies and procedures. one more. >> travel to and how did you track him? was it high pass? >> i don't want to get into how we know he was in wisconsin, but we know he traveled to the madison area before turning around and coming become to illinois. >> last question. >> did his parents ask -- was his parents involved with the knives and taking them from him? did they report that he was threatening and that's the reason -- came to the house? >> a family member reported that he was being threatening. >> so in other words a family member reports of knives being there, but then he's buying guns and nobody said nothing? >> i'm not quite following your question. the police responded -- the police responded in september, okay, to this call. they responded, they took the knives out of the home.

they filed the paperwork with the illinois state police. at that time there was no function to make an arrest. there was no -- >> but the parents are there watching him buy five or six or seven guns. >> i don't know if the parents were there. i can't speak to that. >> thank you, we'll be back at 5:30. >> all right, guys this is a reminder we're going to the west side of the scene at this point. we have been watching together this latest briefing by law enforcement officials in highland park, illinois. some headlines here to quickly go over with our guests. this was the lake county sheriff, their public information officer who gave the most detailed accounting of the shooter's violent past or at least questions of his potential for violence. he described an incident in september of 2019 in which 16 weapons, which included knives, a dagger and a sword were reported by a family member. they investigated. they went to the house. they described that the weapons were seized at the time, but it

sounds like the loophole, if you will is that there wasn't an application to purchase fire weapons at the time. so they couldn't revoke his ability to buy weapons of war, ar-15 style rifles, of which he purchased at least two. he also purchased three other weapons, a combination of pistol and shotguns sometime in 2020 and 2021. just talk about the limited tools available to law enforcement who know this is a violent individual who in september 2019 are at their house. he's so violent, he can't be safely in possession of swords and daggers, yet two years later he goes out and buys two ar-15 style rifles. >> well, nicolle, it clearly points to a gap in the red flag law of illinois potentially, we need to figure out what was transmitted, how that was handled and what their laws and procedures are. again, i think if we start looking too much at what might or might not have been done from a red flag perspective, it takes away from the broader issue here. i mean, certainly, yes, there was a -- it appears to be a very

real possibility that information was missed that should have been present, and if the system or the procedures didn't allow for that, they should be changed. but at the end of the day, if we allow this discussion to suddenly become consumed about what red flag laws should be, what warnings should be, it takes away from the broader issue, which is for every person who has this collection of knives who say they're going to kill everyone, for everyone who has prior visits from the police because they tried to commit suicide or somebody heard that they were trying to commit suicide, there's going to be another one or two or five or 20 people who don't make statements like that who still have the ability to access these guns. and again, to the point that tom was making before the news conference, i think law enforcement absolutely across the united states are looking at every one of these incidents with a sense of dread. i carried long guns. sometimes i carried shotguns, at other times solely based on the concern about what we might face on the other side whether it was somebody armed with an automatic weapon or with body armor, and the difference is that, you

know, every agent goes through quantico, every policeman, every sheriff goes through the police academy. every member of the military goes through basic training for months and months and months of training before they're ever allowed to have a weapon in the first place. yet, the people they are potentially facing on the street are able to very easily go and get these same weapons without any training, without any licensing, without any insurance, without any wait period in many cases, and so there is this disparity that i am certain -- and i know that from federal law enforcement officers all the way down to city and county police are looking at what they might face and trying to understand, okay, what do i need to be doing? how do i need to arm and protect myself to counter this threat, which, you know, is exactly what we saw play out in illinois just, you know, yesterday. >> chris, we also learned at this briefing that there are 45 victims. they include the injured and the deceased. we know that this is still an active crime scene. they're looking for a female

witness. it sounds like there's either another witness or some surveillance video, and what they're looking for that female witness to tell them about, they think that this female witness may have seen the shooter drop an item in a red blanket. the officer later revealed that it was the rifle wrapped in that blanket, still a very active still a very active crime scene there. >> reporter: and that's what they said earlier today at the press briefing prior to this one, and it's something we've seen play out over and over and over again, that there is just so much out there, so much information, but we do know that memories are fresh now, that the evidence is fresh now, so they're working in overdrive to get as much information gathered as they possibly can. the breadth of the technological ability that they have, whether it's looking at cameras or, you know, going into his online, but in the end, they also want to talk to these individuals, and so this is going to be something that goes on and on, and i would just say that there are, for

example, investigations that continue to this day on shootings that were long since over, whether it was because the shooter was killed or because the shooter has been convicted. i think it took something like ten years for a definitive study of the columbine shooting to be published, so that gives you an idea of how much information is out there. but one of the things that you see, time after time after time, is that people, once the initial shock wears off, they do want answers. they do want to know that everything that could be found about why this happened has been found, but the additional thing, and that's what we were talking about before the press conference, is how do we see that this doesn't happen again? in 1999, it is seared in my brain that the last day i was covering columbine after many, many days of being there, a teacher from the school walked up to me in the parking lot to thank at the for covering their story and saying, i believe that

it's out there, maybe this won't happen again. maybe we can stop this. and that was 1999. so, there are a lot of questions that law enforcement still has and a lot of answers that they and this community want answered long after we have gone on to the next story, nicole. >> and you do such a good job, chris, making sure that we talk about them and we think about them in their entirety. another person that helps us do that is our next guest, shannon watts, founder of the group, moms demand action for gun sense in america. you have, i think, given voice and given -- i don't want to say purpose, because obviously, no one who has lost a loved one i a mass shooting wants their purpose to be about the single most heinous day of their lives, but the truth is, many of them do give of themselves and do turn their grief into action. we last talked, shannon, when there was some real notable progress, but here we are again, and i wonder your thoughts on a day like today.

>> well, you're exactly right. survivors who wake up and do this work inspire me. they are heroic. and you know, i wept yesterday for the people in that community, in illinois, who were supposed to be celebrating freedom. and i think we should reflect on, you know, what does that even mean? freedom for who? freedom for the seven people and dozens more who were either killed or wounded at a parade? freedom for who? for the three people and seven more who were killed or wounded in gary, indiana, just 16 minutes away from highland park? freedom for who? the police officers who were shot while hundreds fled because gunfire rang out in philadelphia? you know, between july 2nd and july 4th, there were at least 430 shootings across the country. there were at least 167 people killed, hundreds more wounded.

this is the reflection of who we are right now as a nation. we are not safe anywhere. and it is just so important to remember that we have the power to stop this. and that comes by organizing and outworking and outvoting these radical extremists who have been writing our gun laws. this is the logical but horrific outcome of allowing gun lobbyists to write our gun laws. >> you know, claire, it is sort of this pit in the bottom of your stomach that to love and celebrate our country on the fourth of july was for many mixed with grief and horror and fear about the direction republicans seem to want to take us, either through their nominees on the supreme court and overturning a constitutional right that women have enjoyed for 50 years, or this extreme, what shannon's talking about, these extreme policies on access

to weapons of war. what were you feeling yesterday, claire? >> well, it is really hard to kind of grapple with the notion that we've gotten to the point that 40,000 people die every year that never make a headline, nicole. we're not talking about the young lives that were lost in kansas city today or the lives that were lost in gary, indiana, or in chicago or new york or philadelphia or boston or small communities across this country where a young child gets ahold of a gun that has not been stored safely. our love affair with guns has turned into a massive cause of death in this country, and i understand that it is kind of bred into our culture in some ways, this love affair with guns, but you know, somebody on

twitter today had a sarcastic tweet that i thought was pretty clever. he said, a well regulated militia went to the top of a building in a small community and took aim at strollers and lawn chairs and massacred a lot of people, and the mindless thoughts and prayers were the only thing that came in afterwards. and i do think that that phrase, "a well regulated militia," is forgotten by republicans and not embraced enough by democrats. we can do something about this, and shannon's right. it's about using your voice at the ballot box to get rid of people who think we have to have high-capacity magazines available to young men who are searching for some kind of fame in all the worst ways you can possibly imagine. >> claire mccaskill, chris

jansing, pete strzok and shannon watts, thank you so much for being part of this all too common ritual. i'm grateful to all of you. to all of you, please don't go anywhere today. there's much more news ahead. breaking this afternoon, top trump insiders, people like giuliani and his bestie, lindsey graham, were subpoenaed today by a fulton county, georgia, grand jury investigating criminal interference in the 2020 presidential election. that is right after a quick break. minal interference in the 2020 presidential election. presidential election. that is right after you're binging the latest true crime drama. while the new double oven you financed is taking care of dinner and desert. break. for all of life's moments get the brands you trust to get the job done ♪ wayfair you've got just what i need ♪

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every american, not to target one. >> i just don't do nothing anymore. i don't want to go anywhere. i second guess everything that i do. it's affected my life in a major way. in every way. all because of lies. me doing my job, same thing i've been doing forever. >> hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in the east. those powerful, heartbreaking testimonies there by ruby freedman and shea moss, election workers in fulton county, georgia, display the horrible consequences of the lies spread by trump and his allies as they sought to discredit the 2020 ballot counting in a state that the ex-president lost. whether there was potential criminal interference in georgia's election by the ex-president has been under active investigation by the fulton county district attorney,

fani willis, who this spring impanelled a special grand jury to help move her investigation forward. and just this afternoon, the "atlanta journal constitution" was first to report the fulton county special grand jury issued subpoenas to key members of the ex-president's legal team, as well as the close ally of trump's in congress, former trump lawyers and legal advisors rudy giuliani, john eastman, jenna ellis, cleta mitchell, and kenneth cheesebro, a podcast host named jacki pick deason and lindsey graham. the 23-person special grand jury has heard testimony in recent weeks from a parade of witnesses, including some who had direct contact with trump and his soerkts. but tuesday's subpoenas are the closest jurors have gotten to the inner circle of the former president. in giuliani's subpoena, the grand jury specifically calls out his willful spreading of lies. it says this, "despite the lack

of evidence, the witness, rudy giuliani, made additional statements both to the public and in subsequent legislative hearings, claiming widespread voter fraud in georgia during the november 2020 election and using the now debunked state farm video in support of those statements. there is evidence that the witnesses' appearance and testimony at the hearing was part of a multistate coordinated plan by the trump campaign to influence the results of the november 2020 election in georgia and elsewhere." an indication of how far and how deep investigators believe this plot went, as the ajc reports. "willis launched the criminal probe into georgia's election in february of 2021, weeks after a recording of the trump-raffensperger phone call leaked. she has since expanded the investigation to include the fake gop electors, giuliani's testimony to state legislators, and other efforts to pressure georgia officials to act in trump's favor."

it's where we start the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. "atlanta journal constitution" political reporter greg bluestein is back. carol leonnig. former u.s. attorney barbara mcquade who is now a university of michigan law professor, and "new york times" columnist charles blow joins us, all msnbc political analysts. greg, we have talked over the last couple years about how every crisis has a georgia thread. this one, in this case, georgia is the beating heart. tell us about this development today. >> yeah, it's a major moment in the course of this investigation, because it amounts to a direct effort to reach trump's closest allies in his efforts to overturn the election in georgia and not just that but the steam to set up sham electors in georgia and perhaps other battleground states, just like my colleague reported. this is an effort to get to trump's inner circle. we're not sure if it's going to work. these are all attorneys. they could claim attorney-client privilege and there's still a

complex process to get them to testify, but it is a first step in what could be an effort to end up compelling their testimony before this grand jury. >> and greg, the grand jury process is, of course, secret by design, but some of the witnesses who have been before the grand jury have also appeared in the highly public, highly publicized january 6th hearings. let me read from some of your reporting. you're writing that the secretary of state, brad raffensperger, several of his deputies, and attorney general chris carr have already testified before the grand jury. governor brian kemp, who rebuffed pressure from trump to call a special session of the state legislature to reverse the election results, is also slated to give a video statement later this month. talk about what they will hear from witnesses like raffensperger and his deputies. >> yeah, we're seeing a clear split. obviously, some republicans are more than happy to testify. governor kemp is going to give video testimony on july 21st. others like lieutenant governor

jeff duncan, who's a republican, and several former state lawmakers are trying to fight their testimony. we'll see how that plays out, but they'll be asked a number of questions. we're not exactly sure what the process will be. the judge right now is working out basically a framework for what questions they can be asked and what they might not be asked. but in general, we're going to hear more about what the grand jury is narrowing in on as some of these details leak and what we're hearing from democrats who have gone before the grand jury is that increasingly, the testimony is focusing on rudy giuliani's role in this overall plot. >> rudy giuliani's lawyers have always been known to be busy. carol leonnig, one of the most dramatic aspects of the public phase of the january 6th hearings is the devastating evidence of corruption, of an attempt to overthrow the results of the 2020 election, all offered by lifelong republicans who, in 2020, when given an option between joe biden and

donald trump for president, they all chose donald trump. let me show you how one such trump voter, brad raffensperger, sounded during the january 6th hearing under questioning from congressman adam schiff. >> mr. secretary, is there any way that you could have lawfully changed the result in the state of georgia and somehow explained it away as a recalculation? >> no, the numbers are the numbers. the numbers don't lie. we had many allegations, and we investigated every single one of them. >> what was amazing about that, carol leonnig, is it's the same thing that doj did under bill barr and then under jeffrey rosen. one of the most incredible things that the january 6th committee has revealed is how many people who derive their salaries from taxpayers investigated donald trump's b.s. fraud claims that were all in trump's own telling discovered on the internet. he tells some doj officials, i'm just better at the internet than you are.

what do you make of this -- it seems like accelerated phase of the fulton county criminal investigation? >> well, in some ways, this investigation has been very slow moving from the start, so i think accelerated is the right word to use to refer to it now. especially because the grand jury subpoenas for some of the testimony of specific individuals are for people out of state, and that requires a judge to say, yeah, you got good reason to get the testimony of these individuals. it's another hurdle that the district attorney has fairly easily met. and i think that it's so smart of you to focus on the pattern, right? lots of times, when you're covering something in realtime, you don't see every little piece and how it overlays, but the way in which rudy giuliani, as part of team trump, as sort of the tip of the spear, worked georgia

legislators, at the same time president trump was working the department of justice, you know, he was telling the top people, what do you mean there's no fraud? i've got this video from rudy. it shows these valet -- the valises, suitcases full of ballots underneath a table, pulled out at the last minute, and his acting deputy attorney general says to the president, which must have taken a lot of bravery, mr. president, that video doesn't show that. your friend, mr. giuliani, has only shown a portion of the video. if you watch the whole thing, none of that is true. that is not what happened. and you need to watch that. at the same time, in georgia, rudy -- rudy giuliani is still pushing that nutty narrative with the georgia legislature, and the president is aware, and on alert from all of the senior people who advise him, this is bogus. this is nuts.

and we can't change the results for you. in fact, i remember when the president called mr. raffensperger, one of the most striking things, again, a moment of bravery, a georgia state election official turns to the president of the united states and says, i know, mr. president, i know that's what you want to believe, but the numbers and the data are not with you. they don't show that. it's sort of shocking how often the president was told this and seemed to continue to push on, as did the rest of his team. >> yeah, i mean, to carol's point, actually, we just got some breaking news that i want to tell our viewers about, as well as all of our guests. the january 6th select committee has just now made public their intentions to hold another public hearing next tuesday, that is, one week from today. they were expected to have additional hearings in july. it was last week's surprise testimony of cassidy hutchinson that was not expected and by their own admission, that was the result of new information

they received. i want to ask you, barbara mcquade, about any potential intersection between this criminal investigation and the evidence being churned and disclosed by the january 6th committee. i don't know that there's been a more gutting human moment than watching the two women, ruby freedman, and shai moss, testify about the abuse and really being hunted by trump's supporters because of a lie. and the lies about election fraud, which were disproved by trump's own republican allies in the state and at doj. >> that was some of the most compelling testimony we've heard during these hearings, and absolutely, they are right at the center of donald trump's attacks. he calls them out by name in that phone call, which then got a lot of publicity. knowing that he was doing it with complete reckless disregard for the truth and putting them in harm's way. now, you know, when we've got these bounty hunters or whoever

they were that showed up at shai moss's grandmother's house, i don't know that we can say that donald trump is legally liable for that but he's certainly morally liable for that. when you call out someone as your enemy, knowing you've got all kinds of devout followers out there, you have to know that you're putting her life in jeopardy. but i think these two threads are coming together very much, and there's concern there that one is going to step on the other, that one is going to reveal testimony that the other would prefer not yet be revealed so that they could collect evidence quietly and not permit witnesses to get their stories straight. but i think that between the january 6th committee, fani willis in fulton county, and the department of justice, it's inevitable that their efforts are going to clash. one hopes that they are coordinating to avoid having problems that they create for each other. >> charles, i want to show you two things. i want to put up again the list of people who were subpoenaed today by fulton county corner fani willis. they include rudy giuliani, john

eastman, jenna ellis, cleta mitchell, kenneth chesebro. there's a notable name not on the list. here he is on january 2, 2021, trying to shake down brad raffensperger for the exact amount of votes he needed to flip the state. let me play that for you. >> why wouldn't you want to find the right answer, brad, instead of keep saying that the numbers are right? so, look, can you get together tomorrow -- and brad, we just want the truth. it's simple. and the truth -- the real truth is i won by 400,000 votes at least. so, what are we going to do here, folks? i only need 11,000 votes. fellas, i need 11,000 votes. give me a break. >> it feels like an insult to tony soprano to call that tony soprano-esque but there he was trying to shake down brad raffensperger. do you think this investigation

ultimately includes him and his -- requires his testimony, charles? >> yes, i'm not an attorney but the way these things works is they work their way up, so this is one level of subpoenas that go out to people beneath him so by the time you question the president, you have had testimony from as many people below him and connected to him as you can possibly get. i also am struck in that -- and i've always been struck in that recording about how the former president talks about the truth itself, and this is a person who has, you know, lied at a scale and at a rate that was unprecedented, and a person who has no respect for, no kind of sense of what truth means, because when you live in a world where you bend it, where fraudulence is part of how you operate your life, he actually believes that if he looks close enough, you can find some fraud, because in his life, fraudulence was part of how you operated, and so he looks at the world,

including these elections, and says, the truth is fungible. it is malleable. it's like play-doh. if you play it around with it enough, you can make it into whatever shape you want it to be in. that does not work well or at all in a court of law. and so, now that we're getting to a grand jury, none of that matters anymore. this is all on the record. if they get testimony from these witnesses, as we already said, there will be some pushback because some of them are lawyers, but if they get testimony, that's testimony on the record. if you perjure yourself, you perjure yourself, that is a legal problem for you. so there's all reason to tell the real truth and not the donald trump version of the truth. this is not an alternative facts universe when you're in front of a grand jury. >> such a good point. at the moment, donald trump does not have any pardon power and it wouldn't work in georgia anyway. one of the trump acolytes or trump sycophants who makes a cameo in the georgia criminal

probe is lindsey graham. greg, what is the feeling on the ground about lindsey graham trying to meddle in the effort on donald trump's part to overturn his defeat in the state? >> yeah, that news -- that little snippet came out a little later, after the infamous raffensperger call, that lindsey graham had also apparently pushed brad raffensperger to find illegal votes, to try to find a way for donald trump to win. so, we're not sure how extensive his efforts are. his campaign -- his office hasn't even confirmed that he has been subpoenaed quite yet, but certainly, it was looked at as more out-of-state meddling by not just democrats but also republicans were upset about the efforts to overturn georgia's election. >> and carol, i mean, this is what the subpoena says about lindsey graham, who is known to enjoy, you know, helping trump out on the golf course, but now, after the subpoena, is known to have helped him try to steal georgia. the court finds that the witness, lindsey graham, based on the substance and timing of

the telephone call he personally made to georgia secretary of state brad raffensperger is a necessary, material witness in this investigation. the witness possesses unique knowledge concerning the substance of the telephone calls, the circumstances surrounding his decision to make the telephone calls, the logistics of setting up the telephone calls, and any communications between himself, others involved in the planning and execution of the telephone calls. the trump campaign and other known and unknown individuals involved in the multistate coordinated efforts to influence the results of the november 2020 election in georgia and elsewhere. finally, the witness, lindsey graham's anticipated testimony is essential in that it is likely to reveal additional sources of information regarding the subject of this investigation. this sounds to me like they have a whole lot of phone records and perhaps even audio recordings of

potentially even this witness. we know that mr. raffensperger has testified. what does this sound like to you, carol leonnig? >> well, i share your gut instinct, nicole, about phone records, at least metadata, at least they've gotten a trail of who pinged who on these respective days. it doesn't take a lot of work for a prosecutor to get that information, and it would be a sort of basic building block for this investigation. but i think as well, i'll add another two cents. lindsey graham will be put in a pressure cooker as a result of this subpoena, because no longer is it just whether or not my voters and supporters and my loyal base for getting re-elected as a senator. no longer is it whether or not they like how i've handled my relationship with donald trump. now, there's an investigation into a felony, a felony of

interfering in a state election. and it has serious consequences, and it will amp up the temperature, the boiling point, if you will, underneath lindsey graham's feet to answer questions. oh, so, who'd you talk to before you called brad? was it donald trump, by chance? did donald trump tell you what you might want to say to brad? you know, it seems like -- i can make up that conversation, and i don't like to be speculative, but that -- if i were the district attorney, that's what i would be asking, and i would probably have some metadata to back up the reason i wanted to ask that question. >> yeah, i mean, and there's certainly enough clues to make us ask these questions in the subpoena itself. greg bluestein, thank you for starting us off with this breaking news today. if we learn anything else in the next 45 minutes, just wave and we'll bring you right back on. when we come back, a newly unearthed piece of evidence that is now in the hands of the

january 6th committee. we will play it for you. it's from an unbelievably bizarre alternate reality. it's a documentary called "unprecedented." its chronicles the trump family, like way inside their comfort zone, as they sought to cling to power and carry out a coup against the united states government. we'll talk about where the committee's investigation will go with its next hearing now announced for next tuesday. plus, why so many of the lawyers who tried to help the disgraced twice impeached ex-president cling to power are being punished for their role in subverting american democracy. brand-new reporting on that to tell you about. and wnba superstar brittney griner makes an appeal to president joe biden, telling him that she is terrified she'll be stuck in russia forever. we'll bring you the latest on the efforts to bring her home. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. the latest the latest the efforts to bring it's a storm that crashes, and consumes, replacing thought with worry.

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about two weeks ago, we learned about a filmmaker named alex holder. we learned that he turned over 11 hours of footage he had for a docuseries called "unprecedented." it followed the trump family very closely ahead of and in the aftermath of the 2020 election. today, we got a snippet of those hours of footage that are now in the hands of the committee investigators. here's a trailer for "unprecedented," obtained exclusively by politico. ♪♪ >> okay. >> do you see this line?

>> how are you? >> tired. i did evangelicals for trump, then i did indian americans for trump, then i did asian pacific americans for trump. >> my father, the people's president. >> we will make liberals cry again. >> i don't think you want to have the water in the picture, right? you can take it. >> as a family, we've done 55 events in 48 hours. >> the campaign basically was a family operation. >> washing my hands after giving a bunch of fist bumps, you know? >> is that okay? >> yeah, might as well take the table. >> maybe i should just have the dog on my lap. can i borrow your dog? can i borrow blanca? stroking the dog. >> put the table back and put the water on the table without the thing on top of it. >> this is a business. >> oh, this feels good.

>> where you have to be in it for the right reasons. >> this is a fraud on the american public. >> for the sake of this country, we're going to get these guys. >> let's kick some ass, let's win. >> let's walk down pennsylvania avenue. >> they threw the damn match. >> get the roaches out, all of them. >> when you can manipulate people, that has consequences. >> donald trump was able to use his children as the embodiment of trump, the brand. >> he's an unconventional person. >> he believes that everything that he's doing is right. >> how's that look? >> trump has always looked at his project as a dynastic one. >> they have a base. they have their own base. people have no idea how hard this family works. it's part of my base. ♪♪ >> this is my house. >> right? let's go.

>> do you miss me yet? do you miss me? >> we're back with our panel, which is a good thing, because i have no words. carol leonnig, charles blow, barbara mcquade, if i don't see any hands, i'm going to call on you first, charles blow. what do we think the panel might glean from what appears from the trailer like a promotional video for the family coup? >> yeah, i'm not sure what evidence will be in this video that would be useful to either the january 6th committee or even to the people investigating georgia, but what it is, is revelatory once again about the family, about trump and his family, which is that this is a man who has spent his entire life manipulating media. if you were a citizen of new york city for a long time, that's what trump did, right? but it was the gossip pages or

inflating income on a financial basis and making the list. he was able to manipulate or he would have a pseudonym and call in and pretend he was someone else on behalf of the trump organization. that's what he did. you know, it strikes people sometimes that, why would he do this? he keeps doing it because he still believes that he has the charm, he has the ability to manipulate. he has sat for interviews for books. they were not flattering because they told the truth. and when he comes out and says, well, these people are horrible, and they lied, and it's not what i want and not what i meant, he still believes that he is the king of this. he's the king of distortion. he's the king of manipulation. he's the king of people in those interactions. he sees that as a struggle and a battle, and he always believes that if he sits across from someone, he will eventually win. it's just that it doesn't work. the cameras capture what the cameras capture. the pens capture what the pens capture. you say it, we write it down.

that's how it's going to work, and you're not going to be able to go out with every viewing or with every book and explain that that's not what you said or what you meant because, in fact, it has been captured. >> so, we know, barbara mcquade, that one of the things that was gleaned from this documentary filmmaker, mr. holder's footage, was that ivanka trump is full of it. she's either lying to the 1/6 committee when she says she always believed bill barr -- bill barr was gone by december 19th. she says she believed him at the time. or she's lying to the documentary filmmaker who's making the, you know, trump family video montage or the moving christmas card, whatever the heck they thought this was on their way out the door. what would prosecutors be mining this nine hours of footage for? >> oh, this could be a potential gold mine, nicole. you know, when you're prosecuting a case, you have to look not only for evidence that proves the case but you also have to disprove the negative, that the person was acting in good faith, that they did not believe that they were

committing a crime when they were doing the act, so it's useful just to look at it for what it's worth. but i've also found that people in power are surprisingly risky, surprisingly arrogant, and will say things that you just can't believe they said out loud, that they thought would be cut or footage that might even be included in the documentary. and so, i think it's very useful to watch all of it and listen to all of it. but of course with a grain of salt. as you said, ivanka trump apparently made contradictory statements. i'm reminded of the old cory lewandowski line that it's not a crime to lie to the media. i would put stock in what she said under oath over what she might have said in a documentary. >> carol leonnig, i won't ask you to share with us what you found weird, with but i'm going to share that between ivanka, can you see this line, to, can i steal your puppy and misappropriate it to trump's, like, insane obsession with the cup of water? i don't know if that's rubio baggage, but it really does show

them as -- the kindest word i can use, eccentric. >> yes, and i just want to say i also found the whole line issue interesting. you know, obsession with, like, what her waist looked like at that moment. but let's be clear, all of us are on television right now, and i'm sure, you know, barbara and i did our mascara right before, so we were thinking about the way we were seen as well. >> as did i. >> correct. and so -- however, i find the trump moment the most fascinating, because we wrote, phillip rucker, my coauthor and i, wrote about a moment in which president trump was a very new president, and obsessed with the documentary that was being done by alexander pelosi. he didn't really understand that it was nancy pelosi's daughter when he agreed to it, but the whole idea was people would read, like, portions of the most important papers of the

founders, the bill of rights, the constitution, they would read portions of it out loud, and i think you know this, nicole, that the president was obsessed with how his skin would look in the documentary. he was very worried and flustered, and he had trouble saying the words that he was already practiced at to read the constitution. he had these really difficult moments where he would say, cut. let's do that again. no, no, no. i stumbled over that. let's do this over. whereas, you know, dick cheney, george bush, mike pence read their sections aloud because they were familiar with the document. they knew what the constitution and the bill of rights were, and they'd read it in school, and understood the american experiment. they understood what america blossomed from. trump had no familiarity with it, and this video, this documentary by alex holder brings me back to that moment, understanding what happened when

donald trump was asked to talk about something he had no genius to manipulate, no way to maneuver, no way to present himself as brilliant, because he didn't know anything about it. >> yeah. it's so -- you know, everyone has their, like, moment they realize that he was making everything up all the time. for me, it was when john heilemann asked him about the bible and what his favorite verse was, and he, i like all of it. every page. i love it. obviously not familiar with it at all. carol leonnig, barbara mcquade, charles blow, thank you so much for starting us off today. when we come back, there's brand-new reporting on how so many of the attorneys who helped the twice-impeached, disgraced ex-president/coup plotter try to overturn the will of the american people have so far gone undisturbed and unpunished. that's next. e have so far gone

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profitable opportunities, from our good friend, heidi przybyla's new reporting, "in total, at least 16 lawyers who represented plaintiffs in five federal lawsuits promoting trump's baseless election fraud claims in the key battleground states of michigan, georgia, wisconsin, and arizona remain in good standing or at least have no record of disciplinary action with their respective bar associations or licensing authorities." that's according to a politico review. "fourteen of them have since engaged in additional work in support of the election fraud conspiracies despite losing the election to president joe biden. these include defending accused january 6th rioters, consulting for partisan election audits or partaking in advocacy or legal cases sowing doubts about the integrity of the nation's elections." our good friend, heidi przybyla, joins us now. because it's you, this is an extraordinary piece of

reporting. tell us more. >> yeah, nicole, the legal battles around 2020 were really key in helping former president trump further his election fraud conspiracy theories, and the names that we most often hear associated with that are rudy giuliani, sidney powell, but there's this whole cadre of attorneys that were the lead attorneys who were pushing these suits in the states that trump used to make his baseless claims, and what i found was that this network remains really active. most of them have not been penalized. there were some sanctions issued in michigan, but that's under appeal right now. and the elections experts and legal attorneys that i talked to, nicole, say they're just concerned about a repeat of this, because when you look at the amount of money that was raised, we're talking millions and millions of dollars by some of these pacs associated with the president and his supporters and sidney powell, it really pales in comparison to some of

these sanctions orders and so there's a disincentive there, and some of the experts i talked to are pushing for additional reprimands, additional consequences. for instance, we saw rudy giuliani lost his license or it was suspended in new york. it was suspended in washington, d.c., for his role in advancing some of these cases. but we haven't seen that in other cases, and so it is the second rung of attorneys that these outside groups, like the 65 project, are starting to go after some of these attorneys because they're concerned about what will happen if there aren't greating consequences. at the same time, it's really important to all of these cases to prove that these individuals knew that what they were doing was fraudulent, right, when they filed these cases, but in this case, the attorneys that i looked at were only the attorneys that were involved in the so-called cracking cases.

if you recall, sidney powell said she's going to release the kraken and file these lawsuits so these attorneys were all of the attorneys that were involved in those cases that can be tied to her and 14 of them, of the 16, are still actively involved in, like you said, representing right-wing extremist groups like the oath keepers that were involved in the insurrection, representing in the wisconsin audit case that's still ongoing, as well as in michigan, a sheriff who became notorious because he tried to impound voting machines and is still trying to do his own election fraud investigation, nicole. >> heidi, do you think that anything could change if a conspiracy is charged by doj? >> i think that each one of these cases will be looked at potentially individually. the problem is that we don't have a lot of insight. >> we lost heidi przybyla there but not before we got to hear her incredible reporting.

it's a thread of her reporting that we will stay on top of. heidi przybyla, thank you so much for joining us. when we come back, we will tell you about a very, very powerful development in the brittney griner case, a terrified brittney griner appealed directly to president joe biden to help free her from a russian prison. what it could take to bring the basketball superstar and wife and friend and team member home. that's after a quick break. don't go anywhere. and team mem. that's after a quick break don't go anywhere.

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everything about this is a calculation for me, because i have to walk the fine line of, you know, harm versus help when it comes to my wife right now. so, as much as i want to, you know, advocate for her and push for her government to do everything, i also have to take into account that she's in a position where she could be harmed also by any and everything i do, and so it's a thin line to walk, and initially, you know, i was told, just -- we're going to try and reserve -- we're going to try and handle this behind scenes and let's not raise her value and stay quiet and i did that. and respectfully, we're over 140 days at this point. that does not work. and so i will not be quiet anymore. >> that was cherelle griner, the wife of wnba star brittney griner, talking this morning about the change in her public

posture as her wife, griner, remains imprisoned in russia. griner and her loved ones are now turning up the pressure publicly on the biden administration. just yesterday, a letter from griner was delivered to president joe biden at the white house, begging him to do anything to bring her home. griner says, in the letter, that she is terrified. "as i sit here in a russian prison, alone with my thoughts and without the protection of my wife, family, friends, olympic jersey or any accomplishments, i'm terrified i might be here forever." griner, the seven-time wnba all-star was detained near moscow in february, one week after russia's invasion and war in ukraine began and is currently facing up to ten years in prison in russia for alleged drug smuggling charges. joining us now, michael crowley, "new york times" diplomatic correspondent. you know, i read the letter. i understand. and we've all tried to cover this. in the beginning, it was very difficult to understand, really, the details of the case, the details of her condition and status.

i wonder now if there's any more information or evidence that the charges themselves are fabricated. >> thanks, nicole. you know, we just don't know. the problem is that when it comes to the russian legal system, you have to be willing to believe anything. you know, the russians will fabricate, plant evidence, gin charges up, so you know, it's totally reasonable to assume the worst, but we just can't know for sure, so that is a complicating factor here. but having said that, on some level, it may not even be relevant. you know, the state department has determined that griner is wrongfully detained, which means that above and beyond whatever crime she might have committed, if she did commit one, the state department is saying that this situation is not on the level and that it requires special diplomatic intervention because of the way the russians are handling it. >> what are the options being

discussed behind closed doors at the state department? and i presume at the white house as well now? >> well, nicole, you know, u.s. officials are incredibly guarded about talking about these situations. you know, their feeling is that talking about it in public is counterproductive, and you know, as we saw, they counsel relatives and loved ones of people who are detained that the wisest strategy is to keep a low profile. so, the u.s. doesn't want to do these negotiations in public. you know, i think it's clear that when you have these circumstances, the most obvious thing that you consider is the potential for prisoner trades. there is a track record of that kind of thing happening, and in fact, we had a prisoner exchange with russia in april when the u.s. released a convicted russian drug smuggler, a pilot who was flying a plane with drugs, in exchange for trevor

reid, who was a former u.s. marine from texas who had been imprisoned in russia for a few years on charges of assaulting police officers. the russians have floated the possibility of exchanging griner through their media, i should say, not through official russian government official government channels for victor booth, a notorious russian arms dealer currently several a federal prison sentence in the u.s. but u.s. officials are not really engaging with that scenario or talk about it as something they're taking seriously. >> i know we talked about the nature of that swap being incredibly disproportionate. this is a hardened criminal who has done a lot of harm in the world. we don't know that brittney griner is remotely guilty of what she's been charged with by the russians. just talk about, widen the lens for me. explain the russian's strategy. do they target high profile americans for the express purposes of trying to free some

of their notorious harden criminals? >> yeah. i'm told by russia experts who have been watching how the kremlin operates for decades, this is exactly the kind of thing they do. they harass americans and arrest them looking for concessions from the americans' side. a number of american adversaries have done this over the years. iran is a prime culprit that they point to as engaging in essentially hostage bargaining and diplomacy. and so you have to wonder whether that is what the russians set out to do. we don't know whether griner might have been targeted. did the russians kind of luck into this, so to speak? by their account, a drug sniffing dog barked at one of her bags at the moscow airport. or did they see her coming through the system and say this would be a good person to grab? we don't know that.

this is how the russians play. yes, they would love to get victor boot out. as you said, it is very disproportionate. victor is a notorious arms dealer. grinl griner maybe had some vape cartridges with hashish oil. that's a tough one, unless you want to include someone else for the americans, namely, paul whelan who has been imprisoned in moscow for a few years. the u.s. government is not saying in any detail whether that's something they might consider. >> and to be fair, the calculation with the u.s. government is a really difficult one. they view that this puts americans in danger all over the recalled would. you understand it better than anyone. thank you for taking some time to talk to us about it. we'll stay on it. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. r

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