supreme court. but chief justice roberts said, in that opinion, do not worry. you are gonna be able to go to . thank you, sir. >> thank you. that is all in on this tuesday night. msnbc prime starts right now with ali velshi in highland park, illinois, good evening. >> good evening and thank you. we'll see you tomorrow. thanks for joining us this hour. i am here in highland park, illinois, a suburb north of chicago. the latest american city on a long list of cities, a growing list of cities that have experienced a deadly mass shooting. around 10:15 a.m. yesterday morning a gunman climbed up on the rooftop began firing toward the fourth of july parade below him. the parade is well attended by

families with young kids every year. that's what a fourth of july parade should be. local high school marching band was performing when the shooting began and as of tonight, seven people have died after being shot at that parade. 47 people were wounded. the victims range in age from 88 years old to 8 years old. the alleged shooter is 21 years old currently in custody. authorities say they believe he had been planning this attack for weeks. now, all in all, he fired more than 70 rounds from an ar-style weapon that he purchased legally in the state of illinois. this could be a tape by the way because that's what i always say that someone baugtd one of these ar-style weapons. but the thing about this particular type of weapon is that while it was purchased legally in this state, it was technically illegal to carry that kind of semiautomatic weapon inside the city of highland park where this massacre took place because in 2013 the city of highland park

banned assault weapons from their city. that happened just a few months after sandy hook, 26 little kids and their teachers were gunned down at their elementary school in connecticut. democrats in congress tried to pass a federal assault weapons ban which was swiftly blocked by republicans. members of the highland park city council took it into their own hands. they wroup a new city ordnance designated assault weapons as a risk to public safety. they said that in no situation are military-style weapons a justified means of self defense in high land park. and then they voted to ban all assault style weapons and high capacity magazines from their community. but there's one other interesting part of that particular city ordnance that i want to highlight tonight. take a look at this. it's toward the bottom and says, quote, the city previously encouraged the governor and illinois assembly to enact statewide legislation banning the sale and possession of assault weapons.

to date the state has failed to enact a statewide ban on the sale or possession of assault weapons. end quote. what the city council here was subtly pointing to is that this kind of city wide assault weapons ban doesn't mean anything if there are weak gun laws in surrounding areas. no cops checking you when you come into highland park. even with that band in place, nothing standing in the way of someone who decides to legally purchase an assault weapon somewhere else in the state or even a neighboring state and drive it into highland park to kill people which is exactly what happened yesterday morning just behind where i'm standing. we're learning more today about the trauma endured by the survivors of this mass shooting. one woman told "the new york times" that while she was fleeing the gunshots she saw a toddler trapped under a man who was bleeding and unresponsive. the boy's injuries were minor, just some scrapes and bruises, but he kept asking the woman where his mom and dad were.

the child was taken to the hospital where he was reunited with his grandparents. today authorities released the names of six of the seven victims of the shooting which is how we learned tragically both of those little boy's parents were killed yesterday. his mother, irina mccarthy, 35, father kevin mccarthy, 37 years old. the alleged shooter, police say in 2019, someone who knew the alleged shooter called the police because they said the shooter had attempted suicide. just four months later the police were called again this time by the teenager's parents their son threatened to, quote, kill everyone. police removed 1 knives, dagger and sword from the home. authorities say the suspect has been willing to speak to investigators since he's been taken into custody, though they say at this time any kind of motive he may have had remains unclear. the alleged shooter was charged late tonight with seven counts of first degree murder. the state's attorney general was

right here. he brought the charges. he said tonight that he expects dozens of more charges will be brought to account not just for the seven people who were killed but for all of the victims. charges will be representative not just of the physical damage done by the shooter but the emotional damage, if convicted, these charges come with a mandatory life sentence without the possibility of parol. now, just in the last hour, vice president kamala harris was in highland park. she urged the rest of the country to have empathy. that's the mayor on the left, by the way. to have empathy for the people of highland park because she said this could happen anywhere. and i know because i've been courting them. they literally do happen everywhere in this country. the sun is just starting to set here. it's actually set in highland park. this is the first full day after a man with a legally-purchased gunfired into the crowd and the gravity of what happened here is beginning to settle in. joining me now in highland park

is joel krauss, he was at the parade. joel, thank you for being with us. this is a hard day for everybody else things are settling down. for you you're still processing this. you were here with your family, with your two little daughters. >> that's correct, yeah. >> you were down the road on the right side over there? >> on the left side here. just down about a block or so. >> what happened? >> we were enjoying the parade and met some of our neighbors and there with two children, four young children there all together with us. we were unfortunately right in front of a person who lost their life nicholas toledo, who was the first person that we sort of noticed had been shot. so we heard the shots. we thought it was someone using fire crackers, something like that, being pretty insensitive and turned around and saw that he had actually received some graphic -- i'm trying not to be too graphic -- >> 78 years old. >> yeah. >> he was standing -- >> right behind us.

>> unfortunately their family probably took a lot of the damage for us, maybe saved our lives in one way or another. but we were a little lower to the ground and immediately dropped. and just all about frantically trying to court my children and use my body to protect them. >> literally you and someone next to you were covering your children. >> so i was trying to cover mine and my neighbor had his 15 month old in a stroller which we put down. he had the front side and i was trying to cover the back as well. so, together we tried to keep them all together and keep the kids as calm as possible and wait for the shooting to stop. the images i have, the memories there, the bullets going through the trees and hearing it hit the leaves. just the screams, the shouts, the panic. >> did you know -- you said it sounded like fire crackers. that's obvious. it's july 4th. it might have been fire crackers. then they realized it wasn't,

everybody tells me the same story. in some cases it's because people were screaming, people were running. in your case you saw a man get shot behind you. >> yes. we were feet away. unfortunately my children saw everything. they saw everything. so, my 7-year-old is processing. my 4-year-old is working through it as t not sugar coat it. answer their questions. make sure they know they're loved. they're supported. we're here for them, answer any questions. today it was her wanting to put together, my 7-year-old, what happened, where was mom? i was also there with my mother as well as my mother-in-law. so both of their grandmas were there. so, the chances of them -- they could have lost so much family. all in one go. >> that's not an abstraction because you saw what happened next to you.

>> yes. >> so at this point you and your neighbor, you're covering your children. you know that people are getting shot. and so, you're thinking that that bullet could be coming for your family. and you're -- are -- you're hoping if it comes to your family, it gets to you and stops with you and doesn't hit your children. what a thing to think about, court your children. cover your children. >> but they will. and we will talk about this in another, what, maybe a week or ten days. that's the worst part about it, right, it's almost everyday. >> it's almost erd. >> numerically it's a little more than that. >> yeah. >> what do you do about that? it's come for you now. it's not an abstraction. >> i'm angry. i'm angry. and i don't know what to do with that other than to channel it to something. so, what that might turn to be, i don't know. it's been 24 hours. i don't know -- >> certainly. >> what i'll do. there's so many things that need

to be fixed and so many pieces and all need to be fixed at once. we have the tendency to want to fix one thing at a time. you have to fix all of it. put your energy everywhere, chew gum and walk at the same time. as a country, we need to work together, talk about actual change that's going to prevent death and prevent loss in so many ways. i am fortunate to have had everyone in my family walk away completely fine. but, we know that others didn't. >> has that set in for you? >> yes. >> that you could have easily not been here today. i could have been talking to someone else about you. >> right. >> or your children. >> uh-huh. and it's -- yeah. i feel very fortunate that we survived. but not fortunate to have been there and not fortunate about anything else. nobody should have to live through that. we're working on it. we'll do our best to get through it. it's definitely going to be a long road. >> sad but you have the hopes and the wishes of a country that doesn't want to have to see this again, but they will.

i'm sorry for the -- what you had to face. thank you for tells us about it. it does help. >> thank you for your time. >> it helps us to understand it, to keep hearing from people why this doesn't have to happen again. thank you. >> thank you. >> hope your kids are okay. >> thank you so much for your time. >> joel krauss was at the fourth of july parade when the deadly shooting happened, as were a lot of people i spoke to today. as we learn more about what happened, we're also learning about the seven people who were killed in this shooting. they are 64-year-old katherine goldstein. 63-year-old jacqulynn sundheim. 88-year-old stephen strauss. 78-year-old nicolas toledo zargoza. 35-year-old and 37-year-old irina and kevin mccarthy and yet unidentified person. those are the seven who have passed away. we're going to have more information on these victims as we get it. joining me now is the highland park mayor.

thank you for being with us. >> thank you, ali. >> we saw you moments ago, the video of you when the vice president was here. she had a scheduled trip to chicago. >> she did. >> you asked her to come. >> i asked her to come up and speak to our first responders. they have had an unbelievable 36 hours. i knew they would appreciate hearing words of comfort and support from the vice president. more importantly she said to them, they need to take care of themselves. >> tell us about the first responders. three reasons first responders were here. one of them is that some were in the parade. it was a large event, larger police presence and third they were the police around, the police station is over there. >> yeah. >> they did exactly what we hope first responders will do at their own -- to their own peril, they ran toward the gunshots. everybody else tried to run away, as people should. >> absolutely. >> they were running toward it. >> they were. they were unbelievable. we had incredible partnership with the fbi, atf, illinois state police and so many local police departments came

together, have worked unbelievable concert. and they caught the guy. i mean, it was an afternoon of absolute fear and panic. people were hiding under this gas station, under that store and houses. they caught him. >> people understand all politics is local. this city did the right thing about assault rifles ban. >> in 2013 we banned them. >> yet this still happened. >> right. so we need to talk about the fact that patchwork legislation isn't going to work when you're talking about weapons of war and it's time for a national ban. we had one. it diminished the number of mass shootings for several years then it expired and here we are. to your point, this is all too frequent. i heard from so many mayors who said to me, oh, yeah. let me give you the handbook on what mayors are supposed to do. >> you think about this now. it's not an abstract, something that might not happen. >> exactly. the u.s. conference of mayors literally had a seminar attended by hundreds of mayors and the middle of that seminar the mayor of seattle got the call that her

city was dealing with a mass shooting. it's a sickness. it needs to be addressed. we did what we could. we represented our city's values here and took the necessary action. >> right. >> we took the risk of getting sued by the nra and we were and we prevailed. but at the end of the day, we need to see leadership, whether it's at the state level, i would prefer the national level because we're surrounded by several states -- >> right. >> very lenient laws. >> i didn't tell the full story, you're surrounded by other communities that doesn't have these laws but the state is surrounded by other laws. illinois has more strict gun laws than other places do but it doesn't matter. >> right. drive an hour in indiana. drive in another direction and they're in missouri. i mean, this country has to get tired of the carnage at some point. the pictures and the what happens to people's bodies when somebody uses a combat weapon isn't making a statement. it's a violent evil act. >> is there some sense that this evolves and this changes because

it's hard. when you go into these communities where people say, i can't believe this happened here. >> right. >> but it does. it happens everywhere. is there some sense that -- do you get some sense particularly from seeing the vice president here, we obviously had some gun legislation, which was monumental to have anything happen. do you think people are tired of it and they will support communities that take a strong stand? >> it's interesting. i've gotten several calls from municipaliies wanting to take this action. currently preempted by the state of illinois. we're working to roll that back. i was lobbying the governor yesterday when he came here. there will hopefully be action either in terms of removing state preemption of creating a statewide ban, but again it has to be a national movement. we're the only country that doesn't address access to weapons of war. we know people have mental health issues in other countries and play video games and post nonsense on social media. >> right. >> but they don't have access to these guns. and something has to be done. this isn't freedom.

we came together yesterday to celebrate as a community multigenerational, independence day, our first parade in two years. it was a glorious day until it wasn't. and it turned from a parade to a mass evacuation. enough. >> so what the audience couldn't see as i was talking to joel moments ago, you were standing right there. you heard the whole conversation. you felt his emotion. >> absolutely. >> he said it. he said i'm angry and i'm trying to channel it into something. he said only bnl been 24 hours. i don't know what that is. that's something i've been hearing a lot not just this community but ere community i go to after a shooting. i want something to happen. >> right. >> what should that something like like for everyday people who have not been killed in a mass shooting. >> right. >> what should that look like? >> it should look like an understanding and an empathy for war victims because at the end of the day, we are having the functional equivalency of a war breaking out on our streets unprovoked. senator duckworth was here last night. she said she hasn't heard those

sounds since she was in combat in iraq. enough is enough. there's no reason to have these weapons on our streets. not for hunting, not for self protection. it has to end. >> mayor, thank you. i'm sorry to make my first visit here under these circumstances. but i wish you the best healing. >> appreciate everything. thanks, ali. >> highland park mayor. the congressman who represents highland park was actually at this parade yesterday when the shooting started. we'll talk to him about yesterday and how as the mayor talked about to change things going forward. that's coming up next. hings going forward. that's coming up next.

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why is it -- oh god. oh god. oh god. [ screaming ] a philadelphia-based nbc news reporter was the middle of interviewing a couple of teenagers out celebrating the fourth of july last night when gunfire rang out. this is an aerial look at how that independence day celebration devolved last night as fireworks went off in the center city of philadelphia and hundreds of people began sprinting down the ben franklin parkway away from the gunshots. there were no casualties. two police officers were injured in the shooting. investigators are still working to identify a suspect who remains at large. they're also trying to determine where the shots came from and how many rounds were fired.

it was supposed to be a celebration in a city where the declaration of independence was signed. this is how the mayor of philadelphia describes what happened instead. >> laid back chill day. weather was beautiful. concert was beautiful. but we live in america and we have the second amendment and we have the supreme court of the united states telling everybody they can carry a gun wherever they want, god city. we have to come to grips with what this country is about right now. >> in addition to that incident in philadelphia, more than a dozen mass shootings took place across the country during this holiday weekend alone. including the catastrophe in highland park yesterday that left seven people dead. even before that attack, at least 57 people were shot in the chicago area this weekend, 9 of them died. when you take the six months and five days of the year that have gone by in 2022, gun violence

archive counts 309 mass shootings so far in 2022. those are incidents in which four or more people were shot or killed. more than one a day. actually more than two a day almost. just last weekend president biden signed brand new gun legislation into law. the most consequential and expansive bill of its kind in decade. during the signing ceremony he said the families of the victims of recent shootings told him, for god sake just do something. the president said, quote, today we did. he said lives will be saved. that was on june 25th. the law he signed strengthened background checks for buyers younger than 21. tightened the boyfriend loophole. it set aside funds for mental health resources and state's red flag laws. the law does not ban assault-style weapons. let me tell you, i have been covering these shootings on the ground from the scene for years, and they all have assault-style weapons.

fast forward about a week, by the way, after that signing. a mass shooter kills seven people on july 4th with an assault weapon leaving highland park to be the latest community to gain national attention as a target of mass violence. these are the two main newspapers in chicago. these are today's front courts. "the chicago tribune" says "holiday horror" the sun times says horror on the fourth. officials here are still not sure what motivated the highland park shooter. it seems clear that ready access to these weapons of war allowed him to inflict as much damage as he did. joining me now is congressman brad schneider, democrat from illinois who represents highland park. he was at the parade when the shots were fired. congressman, good to see you. >> good to be here, thanks. >> this is the route along which the parade was going where the shots were fired. you were moving your way between towns. you had four parades you were going to. >> five parades. >> you were coming here. >> literally just arrived was talking to my team on where to connect to join the parade

route. they hadn't yet joined the route when the shots rang out. woman i was talking to, ari, said there's been shots. everyone is running to get away. and i moved away from the parade grounds. but this is a parade that, you know, thousands of people line this route. they come together, families, generations, grandparents, parents and grandchildren. i talked to one family 16 family members were sitting where the shooting took place, celebrating the nation's birthday. our independence, our freedom. >> yeah. >> and only to have in a flash of a moment upwards of 70 rounds fired. ar-style weapon kill, murder seven people, wound more than 30 and shatter the tranquilly and aspirations of this community on the day we celebrate our nation's -- >> jill krauss standing there and had a man next to him shot dead said he heard the bullets

whistling through the air. the mayor who was just here a moment ago was talking about the fact that it sounded more like a war zone. the senator, tammy duck worth said the same thing, she hadn't heard this kind of thing in small town america. you hear it in a war zone. on one hand we actually have legislation for the first time in decades, gun legislation. on the other hand, everybody who does one of these things does it with an ar-style weapon and lots of young men seem to get them. >> i don't want to dismiss this legislation. house, senate, republicans, democrats came together. >> it's a big deal. >> it's a big deal but it's a small step. it's money for states to put in red flag laws, which need to be in these states. yesterday's experience demonstrates that. it's money for mental health. it's closing the boyfriend loophole. all of these things are critically important. but it's not enough. we know that these military weapons, weapons of death and destruction designed for one thing to kill as many people as efficiently and quickly as possible have no business in our

community on our streets. as long as people have access to these weapons to climb on a roof and disrupt a holiday parade where families are celebrating our community, we're going to have tragedies like this. 309 that, almost 12 a week, 2 everyday. we're better than this. we need to come together, republicans and democrats and address this problem. >> some of that will happen in congress or could happen in congress. it does feel to some people that we squeezed all the juice that we could out of fruit to get this legislation that we've just had. in the end, you talk about red flag laws. this is an example of a person who has had the police called twice, for suicide attempt and possibly for a threat to kill other people. and yet was able to legally purchase a weapon in the state of illinois, which is not known for having the most liberal gun laws in the nation. how do you solve problems that seem so obvious to people who think about it but seem unsolvable in terms of getting

weapons out of the hands of these young men? >> absolutely. we'll get more information about how this guy got the gun. he bought it legally. there were visits to his home a couple years ago and all that will be developed as we get more facts along the case. this is still a crime scene. they're collecting all that data. but we know that assault weapons ban worked. we had one for ten years. the number of -- >> you did not have these stories on a daily basis. >> exactly. >> i used to say weekly basis, it's more than that. >> it is everyday, two a day we're seeing this and affecting communities all across this nation. no community should experience what highland park is experiencing now. no community deserves to experience this. what our communities deserve is action from congress, concrete action, until we passed twice in the house universal background check legislation. 90% plus of the population, left, right, hunters say we should do that. let's get that done. it's not a matter of trying to squeeze the juice out of congress.

congress stepping up, stepping forward and taking our responsibility seriously to keep our communities safe. kids in their schools, people in church and synagogues, people going to the store or movie should not have to worry that someone is going to come in and fire off 70 rounds within just a couple of minutes. >> congressman, thank you for your time. >> thank you. appreciate it. thank you for being here. >> my pleasure. thank you, sir. congressman brad schneider democrat from illinois who represents highland park. we're going to speak with a surgeon who was at the parade. the congressman was just talking about the damage that these weapons of war do. there was a surgeon who was here with his family during the shooting. he jumped in to help treat the wounded as soon as the shooting stopped. he's next. wounded as soon as the shooting stopped. he's next.

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from watching you, by downloading the app today. duckduckgo: privacy, simplified. ♪♪ when the crowds started running, at first he thought a celebrity had been spotted. howard was playing the tuba with his band, a jewish instrumental group at the highland park fourth of july parade yesterday when the horror began to unfold. i spoke with him earlier this evening. this was the scene of the shooting behind us. when you were performing, what happened in that moment when the shooting started? you were performing, you were playing. you didn't hear anything. >> correct. >> how did you know something was wrong? >> you know, we didn't at first and then we started seeing people run on the street that we

were on, which was the street right before getting into the main street for the parade. >> this is the main street for the parade. >> correct. >> so the parade was here and people were now running away from here. >> correct. this way. and you were over there. >> yes. yes. we were over there playing and we saw a few people run by and didn't think much of it. we kept playing. >> right. >> joyously and then all of a sudden we saw a larger crowd and said something is not right. we stopped playing to try to find out what was going on. and of course no one was saying anything. and finally we heard shooter. >> wow. >> and that just scared us. we heard some of the pops. when we stopped playing, we heard some of the pops from the shooting. >> so you're performing in a band. >> yes. >> it is literally joyous music. >> yes. >> it's this fun thing. so i'm trying to understand the moment between when you're performing -- i imagine you're having a great time performing. >> yes.

>> and then it dawns on you there's a shooter and you see people running and they have panic in their eyes. just give me a sense of what happened. this is inside of a minute? >> yes. i think we probably playing for two minutes. >> yeah. >> and then this started. then we started -- so we're playing a little longer. again, not for the first few people because we didn't think anything was up. but the more we saw people running the more we realized in both our piano player gayle and violin player alex realized there's a shooting going on. >> how are you all communicating this to each other because you're playing? >> right, right. gayle is a piano player, she can talk. i think something is wrong. i'm playing along thinking i don't see anything, gayle. i don't think so. >> right. >> and she was right. >> tell me what you've been thinking for the last 24 hours. >> this is surreal. i can't believe it happened here in this community. i can't believe i was this close

to it. i'm just still numb and in shock that this madness, this violence, this gun violence continues in this country. >> this is surreal. i want to turn now to someone who not only witnessed yesterday's brutal attack, but he stayed as the terror unfolded to help victims. joining us now is the man we always hope or the man or woman we always hope is here. dr. lauren was at yesterday's july 4th parade with his family right here. he jumped in to help and treat victims after the gunfire rang out. his normal job as a surgeon at rush university medical center in chicago. doctor, thank you for your service first of all. >> thank you. >> you shouldn't have to be the guy who is around at a parade, but this happened. and i think the thing we have to get across to our viewers is this isn't the same as being shot with a handgun. these weapons which is what all these mass shootings are under

taken with, they do damage to the body that even having a doctor on the scene can't always help. >> i mean, that's absolutely correct. the injuries were devastating. i won't describe them, particularly but it was carnage. several people i saw who were obviously deceased were beyond hope. we turned our attention to other people. it was triage situation. there was an older gentleman i believe he was unfortunately one of the people who passed away with a gunshot his abdomen. started an iv, held pressure on his abdomen. went to some of the younger people who had multiple gunshots to their legs, open fractures, bones displaced. applied tourniquets, started ivs. got them on the ground. couple older people who hadn't been shot who were pretty bruised and beaten tried to comfort them as best we could. couple of the younger people who were literally eviscerated on

the ground. >> these weapons are of a power that some people say a handgun is also a semiautomatic. keep pulling the trigger and each time you pull the trigger a gun will fire. why do people distinguish between those and these. >> i've seen unfortunately a number of handguns, these clearly weren't handguns. the level of devastation and destruction to the body was well beyond a handgun. these individuals were mortally, mortally wounded. >> there were ems people here and a surgeon like you. this is beyond in many cases what people on the scene can do. i'm not even sure that some of these people if they were magically in an operating room within moments can be saved given the damage that you and others have described to me that those people who died faced. >> they were clearly deceased at the scene. getting them to an operating room would not have made

unfortunately one bit of difference. >> wow. what's your take on it? as a doctor who sees these things unfortunately this is not what you see everyday. what's the message you like people to take away from this? >> i mean, i certainly don't understand. i don't own a gun. i don't understand why someone would need a weapon of this power. the devastation that we saw was horrific. i can't imagine as a sport hunter that you would need a weapon of that nature. it was just truly awful. it was horrific. i don't have words to really describe the community that i grew up, my wife grew up in, we raised our kids. >> which by the way doesn't allow those weapons. >> which does not allow those weapons. >> how are your kids? >> the older one was pretty shaken. he was about 100 yards away with his sister. >> how old? >> he's 8 going to be 9. and i was literally on the street underneath the shooter and we called my sister who had him.

i said get out of here. we had my older parents. we were shuffling them off. i mean, we literally heard the bullets coming by, the trees were shaking. >> heard that from people they heard the bullets. >> i'm not familiar with that level of gun noise. i mean, i thought in my head, this is where i'm going to end. this is the end of it. and got around the corner and my dad is a retired doctor. i said i'm going to go back and help. hand that's what we tried to do. >> thank you for what you did. by the grace of god you're here, but may this not be something you ever see again. >> thank you. >> a surgeon at rush university medical center he treated patients at the scene during yesterday's horrific mass shooting. we're going to continue our coverage here. we turn next to the other shooting that our nation is grappling with right now, a heavy night and there's a lot to get to. we'll be right back. d there's ao

get to we'll be right back.

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about 350 miles east of where i am right now in highland park, illinois, the city of akron, ohio, is under curfew tonight coming after multiple days of protests following the release of body cam videos on sunday that showed eight akron police officers shooting and killing 25-year-old jayland walker. now, the police pursuing him for having fled from a routine traffic stop. but that pursuit ended with jayland walker suffering from more than 60 gunshot wounds. now, there are plenty of complicating factors to this

case that are getting a lot of coverage in the media. police say when he emerged from the car walker was wearing a ski mask and also had a gun in his car that police say discharged prior to the pursuit on foot. he was unarmed at the time he fled the car and was shot, but all of those complicating factors might be beside the larger point what has people in the streets of akron upset about, this particular police shooting, is the amount of force used by the police. now, we normally try to avoid showing video that's too upsetting or too violent, but for this story, in order to understand how much deadly force was used against walker seeing the video is necessary. so now is your chance to turn away if you don't want to see the video. i fully understand if you need to because this is tough to walk. this is video from when walker exits his car to the point when he's shot. now, we're going to freeze the video, but then keep the audio going once walker is on the ground. it's important to hear just how long the officers continue to shoot after he's down.

>> stop! [ gunfire ] >> non-stop shooting from multiple officers for nearly seven seconds. joining us now is phillip, the co-founder and ceo of the center for policing equity and professor of african-american stuies and psychology at yale university. professor, thank you for being with us tonight. you had a chance as you always do to have a look at sort of what the public gets, the information, body cameras, the things that the mayor and the police chief and others have said. what do you make about -- of this situation in akron? >> so, you're in highland park

right now. single shooter, discharged something close to 70 rounds. it was a mass shooting. catastrophe, a tragedy. these eight officers discharged 90 rounds, 9-0. 60 of which went into one body. you're talking earlier about how ar-15 style weapons shred the body. it's not like a hand held pistol. but 60 rounds in an individual. there is no one who is that dangerous. there is no way that you can justify it. it's just grotesque. and so, we'll talk about in the weeks and months to come the failures of training and we'll talk about the reasonableness standard of, well, they thought there was a gun and he was wearing a ski mask and that led the officers to fear. but what on earth are we going to be able to say that says 90 rounds, 60 of which go into a single body, is the way in which anybody is kept safe? my response to this is the same

as most folks that i see in these communities which is that this is a ridiculous thing that we pay for to then have to watch someone die that way. >> so what is the response to the official line from the police, at least for now, prior to there being a full investigation that we should be considering the fear that the police officers may have had by virtue of the fact that they say a weapon was discharged from the car and he got out of the car with a ski mask. >> so, i want to understand how fear of a potential shooter leads eight officers in akron, ohio, to shoot 90 rounds, 60 of which go into one body and say, well, that's reasonable. but some one individual who shot 70 rounds into a parade said, hey, could you do me a favor and get on the ground? right. so, i understand fear. i've been in positions where i am afraid for my safety.

it has never made me act like that and we saw in the video the officers were able to make tactical decisions. you see officers put down their gun and when someone crosses in front of them. these folks are supposed to have to justify each and every single bullet in a court of law. you can't justify 90. i don't care what the heck the story is. there's not a justification for 90 bullets. >> so, if you were either in charge of or advising the akron police force today and you were tasked with repairing the relationship with the community, where do you start after something like this? >> i'm not sure that i do. so in most of these situations what we get asked to do all the time and what many politics will ask to do, how do we do exactly that? how do we repair the relationship there? how do we fix what has been broken? i got to say in many cases across the country, folks are not -- are no longer asking for

better. they're asking for different. they're saying i don't want law enforcement to respond to a traffic violation. so for instance, in berkley, california, we found 6.5 times more likely black folks getting stopped than white folks often for pretext. berkley said, we're not going to do low level traffic enforcement with armed responders anymore. and berkley has been followed by places like los angeles, philadelphia, pittsburgh, seattle, lancing, michigan, brooklyn center, minnesota and the entire state of virginia. i don't know the thing to do here is focus on how much we trust the folks who are armed and have a badge so much as it is trying to stop responding to things that could turn deadly and shouldn't with non-deadly options. >> well, you and i both spent a lot of time in philadelphia where the police were in favor of this. great. you know what, get us out of the business of pulling people over for a sticker that expired or a light that's not working in the car. it doesn't end up well. we don't want to be in this business of raising revenue for

the city by pulling people over for petty traffic crimes. >> yeah, that's right. if you got a license reader, you can tell where the person lives and just send them a ticket. right? in many cities they have banned pursuits in cars precisely because folks get hopped up on adrenaline and then they end up getting in crashes. it's dangerous to the officers and obviously can be deadly to the motorist. but it's not just traffic, i don't need gun or badge child welfare the right kind of way. we don't need to respond to crises with potential for punishment and death. so much as we need to respond to crises with care. it can be cheaper and it is almost always less deadly. that's not from an ideological position. that's from science. and law enforcement and activists are asking for the same thing right now. >> phillip, good to see you again. thank you for being with us. a cofounder and ceo for center for policing equity, professor

at yale university. always appreciate seeing you, sir. thank you for being with us. we have two big updates in two of the investigationings into donald trump's attempts to overturn the 2020 election. that's next. d trump's attempts overturn the 2020 election that's next. your projects done right . with angi, you can connect with and see ratings and reviews.

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we have two other important pieces of news before we go tonight, both involving the investigations into donald trump's plot to overturn the 2020 election. today we learned that the fulton county georgia special grand jury, which is looking into potential criminal interference in georgia's 2020 presidential elections, has subpoenaed key members of former president's donald trump's legal team including his personal lawyer rudy giuliani. in addition, that grand jury also subpoenaed south carolina senator lindsey graham, that's the first piece of news. the second involves the january 6th investigation on capitol hill. today the january 6th committee announced it will hold another public hearing next tuesday 10:00 a.m. eastern. msnbc will have live coverage of

the hearing as well as a primetime recap that evening at 8:00 p.m. eastern hosted by rachel maddow. she'll be joined by a whole host of msnbc colleagues. certainly going to be a busy few days and weeks ahead. that does it from us here in highland park, illinois. we'll see you again tomorrow. "way too early" with jonathan lemire is up next. ♪♪ be smarter as a country in terms of what who has access to what, in particular assault weapons. and we have to take this seriously. vice president kamala harris visiting highland park, illinois, on the heel of the july 4th mass shooting. this morning, we're learning more about the victims including a toddler who lost both of his parents. he was rescued from beneath his father's body. meanwhile, the suspect is