morning. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" with us on this friday and all week long. we'll have continuing coverage on the breaking news out of japan, the assassination of the former japanese prime minister shinzo abe. "morning joe" starts now. >> breaking news from japan, former japanese prime minister shinzo abe assassinated, shot while giving a political speech. japan, where gun violence is extremely rare, in shock this morning. we'll get a live report. we're also following the case of brittney griner. the wnba star pleaded guilty to drug charges in a moscow court yesterday. does that speed up the process of potentially getting her back home to the u.s.? and the most pathetic men in america. that is the title of the provocative new essay from mark leibovich about who he calls the, quote, cowards in congress still doing trump's bidding.

we'll read from that new piece. so much different legal angles are percolating with the jan. 6 and other issues with the election. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is friday, july 8th. with us, the host of "way too early" and politico's jonathan lemire. associate editor of the "washington post," eugene robinson. and we begin with the breaking news. former japanese prime minister shinzo abe is dead after being shot twice this morning. officials is say abe was campaigning for a candidate ahead of japan's upcoming house of counselors elections, where he was shot from behind, once in the back and the other in the neck, with what appeared to be a homemade gun. this happened in the city of nara, about 20 miles southeast of osaka. the chaos from the shooting and the subsequent takedown of the man police say carried out the attack was all caught on camera.

and we warn you, some of this video may be incredibly disturbing. [ speaking foreign language ] >> abe was immediately air lifted to a nearby hospital after officials say he went into a state of cardiac arrest. the suspect, according to police, is a former member of japan's navy. speaking to the country after the attack, the country's current prime minister and abe's successor called the shooting a, quote, despicable, barberious act we cannot allow.

>> let's go to beijing and janis mackey frayer. >> it is hard unless people follow japanese politics to understand what a massive figure that the prime minister was, and the pedigree. his grandfather also being premier. his father having the number two position. the longest serving premier in japanese history. the entire region, the entire world must be in a state of shock. >> reporter: well, shinzo abe was a political giant in japan. the longest serving leader in japan's history. a prominent figure who was still popular on the campaign trail. it's why he was giving that speech in western japan today, to help the other candidate. so there is no understating how this is reverberating for people in japan. also, we cannot understate how exceptionally rare gun violence

is in the country. japan has among the most stringent gun laws in the world. so that he suffered such a violent death, this assassination, is also profoundly shaking people, in a place unaccustomed to gun violence. >> yeah, this morning, the "washington post" reports that firearms are strictly regulated in japan. gun violence most often associated with the japanese criminal network. last year, eight of the ten shootings in japan were related to that syndicate, resulting in only one death. four injuries. janis, if we could talk about abe and how he was trying to actually move japan forward from the pacifist position that the united states and other leaders of the post-war world placed on them, and actually was trying to get japan in a position where they could defend themselves, or

at least be far more active with the united states in standing up to what he saw as a rising threat from china. >> reporter: well, shinzo abe had important relationships with several u.s. presidents. as you say, he was trying to expand the reach, the scope, and the strength of japan's military. and how large he figured on the political landscape showed why he was popular on the campaign trail. what we know of the suspect who was tackled by abe's secret service detail at the scene is that he apparently told investigators that he was not motivated by political beliefs. that he acted out of what he called a dissatisfaction with abe himself. so while shinzo abe loomed very large on the political scene in japan for several years, his politics were not always

popular. what we know from what happened, those two shots that are still reverberating, abe went down bleeding. he was unconscious when he was air lifted to hospital. reportedly had no vital signs. doctors say they tried everything to save his life. they tried resuscitating, but he had lost so much blood from wounds to his chest and two small wounds to his neck. when it happened, the arteries were so damaged and he lost so much blood, that triggered heart failure. he was pronounced dead just after 5:03 p.m. local time in japan, which is just after 4:00 in the morning eastern time. the current prime minister, fumio kishida, is expected to speak to the press shortly. again, this news has been reverberating for much of the day across japan. it did not look good for shinzo abe when he was being air lifted to hospital, but, still,

confirmation of his death, of such a violent death, is really, really rocking people in japan. >> janis, condolences, obviously, coming in from around the world. i believe i saw this morning the chinese government also sent their condolences. despite the fact they obviously had a tough relationship. the former prime minister, one of the fiercest advocates for taiwan and warning, again recently, that taiwan could be invaded and the united states and the rest of the world needed to defend them. talk about that relationship with taiwan and also his somewhat difficult relationship with china. >> reporter: there have been strained relations between china and japan for decades. certainly, on social media in china today, some of the comments on weibo not worth mentioning, but were gleeful,

hearing about the fate of shinzo abe. relations were further strained even in the past couple of weeks with fumio kishida appearing to step up to strengthen ties with the u.s. in attending the nato summit in madrid. officials here took note of that. they were not pleased with that. they are seeing an impact on regional relations. again, all linked to what is expected to be a chinese move on taiwan. again, much of this is still reverberating across the region. as you say, leaders around the world are expressing their condolences. so many of those leaders had met shinzo abe, had relations with shinzo abe, and so the news is still sinking in. again, for the people in japan, to lose such a prominent figure in such a violent way is quite jarring. >> yeah. >> nbc's janis mackey frayer

reporting for us in beijing. janis, thank you so much. we greatly appreciate it. gene, it is -- again, we are obviously the united states, not just news but culturally, we focus far more, obviously, on what is to the east of us in britain and europe. not quite as much with japan, despite their extraordinary power. but talk, if you can, for one minute, just for americans waking up who may not have as much of an understanding of what a massive figure he was in japanese politics, just the influence that he's had on japan. not only himself but his father as well as his grandfather. >> right. we tend to think of -- we tend to forget about japan. japan is the third largest

economy in the world. an extremely important country. of course, our foreign policy, we talked for 20 years about a pivot toward the pacific in order to deal with china's rise, rise to becoming a rival of the united states. arguably, the biden administration is finally executing that pivot, and he has emphasized his relationship with the quad group that japan is a member of. shinzo abe is arguably the most important and certainly one of the most important political figures in japan in the post world war ii era. the longest serving prime minister japan ever had. his policies were somewhat controversial in japan, in that he agreed with the united states

that japan should take a more -- i don't know if militaristic is the word, but should be more aggressive in its defense spending, in its defense policy, and more prepared to face the rise of a rising china. and he executed some of those policies. that, again, was controversial. we have no idea what the motive was for this shooting, but this is so shocking. this does not happen in japan, a country of 125 million people that has perhaps ten shootings, ten instances of gun violence in a year. this is incomprehensible, i believe, to most japanese, as they are watching what's happening. they can't imagine this happening in their country, that

there would be a shooting and a death like this. say nothing of it being somebody so important to japan for such a long time. >> for such a long time. and we believe we're going to be talking to the ambassador, the united states ambassador to japan, rahm emanuel, in a few minutes. mika, we have more to cover here. your father actually knew the prime minister, right? >> yes. shinzo abe actually has a couple of firsts in japan's history. he was the youngest prime minister when he first became prime minister at age 52. that didn't end well and didn't last long. then he returned in 2012 and became the longest running prime minister. his grandfather was prime minister of japan. many see his legacy, and this is to your point, joe, as strengthening relations with the united states and, thus, strengthening japan's defense capabilities. so he's a major figure in

japanese history and in world history. jonathan lemire, is there any reaction from the white house? >> they express their shock and sadness at former prime abe's death. their thoughts are with the grieving family and nation. later, president biden is expected to sign an executive order on abortion, and aides suggest he'll address abe's death then, as well. that's later this morning. abe, the longest serving prime minister in japan's history, left office in 2020 citing health issues. he and biden did not overlap while biden was president. biden knew him very well while he was vice president. they met a number of times, both in japan and here in the united states. abe is thought of warmly here in the diplomatic community in the united states. he also worked to establish a -- or tried to establish a good relationship with former president trump, as he did

indeed try to align japan more closely with the united states. we should underscore, he was assassinated while delivering a campaign speech in a town not far from osaka. the current prime minister of japan, prime minister kishida, just put out a statement mourning the death of his friend, but also saying that this sunday's elections, for which abe was campaigning, will continue. he feels like the democratic process needs to go on and, therefore, despite this assassination, they will go on as scheduled this sunday. let's bring in now u.s. national editor and columnist of the "financial times," ed luce, who is on the phone with us. ed, you obviously follow this very closely. give us, first of all, your reaction to the stunning manner of shinzo abe's death, and also what his legacy is for japan and the world. >> thanks, jonathan. it is obviously an utterly

freakish event in japan. this doesn't happen. the last assassination of a politician was in 1960. this doesn't happen. it's not even thought of in japanese political culture. his legacy is huge. abenomics was the great structural reform of the japanese economy, named after him. i think equally importantly was his amendment of japan's pacifist constitution to make japan's so-called self-defense forces less timid and japan's alliance with the united states more practical. he was a founding member of the quad, which some see as the indo-pacific's, i guess, embryonic nato. he's been a hugely significant figure in japanese politics. his career was by no means over. he was killed while campaigning for elections for the upper

chamber. at 67, you know, was not over the hill. >> yeah, you know, ed, it is interesting that over the past six months, obviously, europe has awakened to the growing threat from russia. the threat from russia and are taking back some more of their defense capabilities that they ceded after world war ii. it is interesting, abe was ahead of his time in that respect, wasn't he? he was very tough on china. he was a close ally of taiwan. like you and others have said, upset some people in china because he wanted to move away from a pacifist constitution and have japan be in a position to not only defend themselves but to be a strong ally of the united states in counteracting china's growth.

>> that is absolutely right. his two premierships, and particularly his second stint, was during a china no longer hiding its light, as the phrase goes, and keeping a low profile. a china that was more -- and abe was, in a way, japan's answer to this. japanese leaders tended to be very quiet, very timid. abe wasn't like that at all. he was more like a sort of presidential figure and not afraid to challenge longstanding principles of japanese politics, in order to adapt it to this much, much harsher world that he believed japan was facing with an assertive china. and that legacy will long outlast it.

it is a major shift in japan's posture, if you like. >> all right. so we are looking at pictures now of just horrific news out of japan. shock across the country and around the world as the former japanese prime minister shinzo abe has been shot dead, assassinated. word is that he was in the middle of a political event. he was shot twice and rushed to the hospital. they tried in vain to keep him alive, and the former japanese prime minister has been assassinated. we are going to be covering this throughout the show this morning, all four hours of "morning joe." there is the video of the attack, which is very disturbing. one of the things that a lot of people are talking about right now is how somebody could walk right up to him and shoot him. how guns are not prevalent in japan. how this may have been a homemade gun. there's a lot of unanswered

questions. >> right. >> we have much more to come on this breaking story. we want to quickly turn now to the resignation of british prime minister boris johnson. the "associated press" calling him the, quote, messiest of prime ministers, dogged by one scandal after another. johnson announced he would resign as conservative party leader but will stay on as prime minister until a new leader is in place, a process that could take weeks. possible contenders include foreign secretary liz truss. defense secretary ben wallace. and others. the white house gave a boilerplate statement, saying the united states and britain's special relationship will endure. when asked if he had a reaction to johnson's announcement, president biden said no. it's part of the process. eugene, your latest op-ed for the "washington post" is entitled "boris johnson's fall shows the limits of shamelessness as a superpower." interesting, what is happening

there and what the limits are there compared to here. >> yeah, yeah. i mean, we haven't found our limit yet. >> no. >> we're still deep into the shamelessness of our politics. >> we'll get there. >> but britain finally had enough of boris johnson's antics. i remember boris when i was london bureau chief of the "post" and he was brussels correspondent of the "daily telegraph." he basically made stuff up. i mean, he did. he just made stories up, got them on the front page, became kind of a star. he would find some little germ of truth or half truth, then concoct a whole sensational story a about the dastardly eurocrats and what they were doing to little england.

he sort of failed upward through his career until he became prime minister after knifing theresa may in the back. you know, so his rise was like that, and his fall is being accompanied by quite a bit of glee on a lot of his enemies. it is interesting, the conservative party was willing to go along with boris, much as the republican party had been willing to go along with donald trump, as long as the conservatives were winning. but i think the major factor here is, it's not that johnson was -- had become a different person. i believe he was the same person he always was, scandal after scandal, lie after lie, but the conservatives, the party was falling apart.

it was so far down in the polls, finally, the party had had it. they realized that with johnson as leader, they were going to suffer a crushing defeat. >> i was going to say, no profiles in courage in the torie party. people asking why it happens in britain but not the united states. in britain, it served their own political interest to turn on johnson. many republicans in this country have not yet reached that conclusion, which is why, right now, obviously, we seem to be in a bit of a transition. perhaps this is the future fate of donald trump with conservative -- well, not conservatives, with republicans. but we shall see. jonathan, quickly, quite a statement. quite a statement from joe biden from the white house on boris johnson leaving office. i almost had to wipe a tear from

my eye, it was so heartfelt. no comment. nothing to say. yeah, it's a process, whatever. >> it's a process. >> yeah, president biden was asked about it at an event yesterday and said, yeah, it's part of the process. there it goes. the white house statement itself made little mention of johnson, simply reaffirming the ties between the u.s. and uk will continue. certainly in washington, the greatest concern would be will the change at helm at 10 downing impact the uk's commitment to ukraine's defense. it seems like it would not be, regardless of who succeeds johnson. but despite this smiling photo here taken last year at the g7 in cornwall, hosted by johnson, biden and the outgoing prime minister, not particularly close. they got along fine, aides said, in terms of their personal relationship. biden feels far more of a kinship to some of his other world leaders and resisted boris johnson's declarations at the g7 last week in germany for all the

world leaders to take off their shirts in a threatening post to vladimir putin. so that will probably be less likely to occur with johnson's successor. >> yeah, thank god for the discretion shown there. so we have a lot to cover. the top of 7:00, we're going to be talking to the ambassador, united states ambassador to japan, rahn emmanuel. also, mika, on the story of boris johnson, anne applebaum has an absolutely withering piece on johnson. she has known him for a very long time. we also, of course, are going to be talking about mark leibovich's extraordinary piece also in the "atlantic." this is sort of our "atlantic" -- >> the "atlantic" "morning joe." >> "atlantic" get-together, i guess. also, mark leibovich's extraordinary piece, we'll be going through and looking at that, as well, on the pathetic men who have enabled donald

trump to stay in power for as long as he has. a lot of major world events to cover this morning. we'll be following all the new go developments out of japan following the assassination of former prime minister shinzo abe. also ahead, brittney griner faces an uncertain future after pleading guilty to drug charges in moscow. texas congresswoman sheila jackson lee is involved in the diplomatic efforts to bring the basketball star home. she joins us next. plus, it's been 18 months since the attack on the capitol, and prosecutors are closing in on a new milestone. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. a new milee

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yesterday. griner's plea coming on the second day of her trial there. more than four months after she was arrested at a moscow airport, where russian officials said they found vape cartridges containing cannabis oil in her luggage. one of griner's attorneys told reporters after the hearing that griner admitted the vape cartridges were hers, but said she brought them to russia unintentionally because she packed in a hurry. griner's legal team said, quote, considering the nature of her case, the insignificant amount of substance, and b.g.'s personality and history of positive contributions to global and russian sport, the defense hopes that the plea will be considered by the court as a mitigating factor, and there will be no severe sentence. griner faces up to ten years in prison. her next hearing is scheduled for next thursday. we'll be following that,

obviously. joining us now, congresswoman sheila jackson lee of texas. she just returned from europe, where she was representing the u.s. at the organization for security and cooperation in europe. she has been speaking out on behalf of brittney griner. we thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. what are you hearing about the possibility of brittney griner either receiving a shorter sentence or being able to come home in any way? there's been, apparently, no contact between her and her family, or very minimal? >> good morning and thank you so very much for having me. if i might offer my sympathy to the japanese people for the assassination of former prime minister abe. but it is clear that the russian judicial legal system is worse than a paper tiger. there is no legal system. i want americans to imagine that charges against brittney griner

include smuggling. they were charging her as a major trafficker of drugs. frankly, what happened to brittney griner, and whatever happened in terms of what she had, would have been in the court of law in the united states a dismissal or acquittal. so what had to happen, this daughter of a vietnam veteran, daughter of houston and texas, there had to be a strategy. i started working on this issue about five days after she was detained, around february which, by the way, everyone should know, it was within days of the olympics. russian had been embarrassed. putin had been embarrassed by doping charges. here, he has a call that comes like a gift. we have brittney griner. a two-time olympian, wnba player but, more importantly, someone who played seven years in russia. here we are with bogus charges, and the worst treatment that you

could have for a defendant. you're in a cage. the idea of this plea was to allegedly begin the process, that russia would move her through what they call a trial. there will still be a trial. they still have to present witnesses. in the meantime, as i -- at the osce, we made announcements about what we want to do, move expeditiously the negotiations, which will include a potential -- that has to be the future for her. >> we are following so much breaking news this morning, including this. please keep us posted. congresswoman sheila jackson lee, thank you so much for coming on this morning. coming up, we're going to get an update on where prosecutions stand now 18 months after the riot at the capitol. also ahead, should democrats cut president biden some slack? "washington post" columnist dana

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38 past the hour. look at the sun coming up over the capitol. >> absolutely beautiful. you know -- >> i love washington. >> yeah, you know where else it was beautiful last night? >> where? >> not in fenway, jonathan lemire. not in fenway. >> this is not good timing, joe. >> this is quite a skid. red sox are bad. we said at the beginning, this is an incredibly important run the past couple weeks. well, we haven't been running. we've just sort of been sitting there, eating dunkin donuts and not playing baseball. >> a lot to cover. >> it's really bad. >> the sox had a terrific june, despite losing ground in the standings to the yankees, who seem like the greatest team ever put on god's green earth.

we have slumped at the wrong time. lost two of three to the cubs, two of three to the rays. four games at home at fenway against the yankees. we come here next weekend for three games. here's a play by codera. pop-up, no problem. see, usually, first baseman catch that ball, joe? >> really? >> usually, when a pop-up is hit straight into the air to them, they tend to catch them. devers -- >> at least it's not an important game. if you drop a ball in the infield, do it a game where nobody is watching. >> do it against the first game at fenway this year against the juggernaut yankees, 60-23. rafael devers, the red sox need to lock up to a contract extension, he had two home runs but was the only bright spot. the final score was 6-5. a run scored on the bosh pop-up. that's right, the winning run scored on the bosh pop-up. sox lose the first one to the yankees. they play again tonight. >> jonathan lemire,

disappointed. >> maybe they need to win some games. >> you look so nice, dress up so well for the news, then you dive into the sports. we have so much else to do. just because joe did. >> yeah. >> well. today, former president trump's white house counsel pat cipollone is expected to give testimony, mika, to the january 6th committee. >> thank you. sources tell nbc news it'll happen in private and will be recorded. cipollone had an informal interview with the committee in april. he is considered a critical witness following testimony from former white house aide cassidy hutchinson. the next hearing for the committee is tuesday morning, but it has not said who is testifying. congressman jamie raskin tells "politico" the focus will be evidence of a, quote, tremendous convergence of interest between the domestic violent extremist groups and the broader maga movement. joining us now, senior legal affairs reporter at "politico," josh gerstein, reporting on the

prosecutions of those who stormed the capitol. josh, where do things stand now? >> well, mika, i mean, it's not that the justice department has not been moving on these january 6th prosecutions. we're looking so far at about 855 people who have been arrested in connection with the events of january 6th, making this, by far, the largest investigation and prosecution of a criminal event in u.s. history. and about 40% of those people have already either pleaded guilty or been found guilty at trial. so it is a massive undertaking, to the extent people have complaints about it, it's really about how far -- have reached into the upper echelons of the trump orbit. not so much in the overall effort that the justice department is making, which has been mammoth. >> this is gene robinson. what does the committee want to

hear from pat cipollone? he probably will not talk about his direct conversations with president trump. he might claim executive privilege or lawyer-client privilege. what can he tell them that they need to know? >> well, i think they want to see if he will verify key elements of cassidy hutchinson's very compelling account. remember, she claims pat cipollone told her that they were going to be charged with all kinds of crimes, including fraud and obstruction of justice and so forth, if they allowed president trump to go forward with his plan to visit the capitol on january 6th. presumably after the rally that he held there, which did not happen. but the question is, you know, will he show her account is accurate? it's come under attack by various people since she delivered it a week or so ago. so that's, i think, the primary thing they'll be looking for cipollone. he won't testify, as we

understand it, as you say, eugene, about his direct contacts with the president and their contact conversations, but it sounds like he will talk about what he said and did with other people in the white house. it would be pretty significant to hear that concern from him. remember, this is a trump loyalist through and through. i mean, he defended trump in the impeachment hearings. so he's someone who clearly was in the president's corner politically, but to hear these concerns about potential criminal charges against the white house staff will be pretty dramatic, if that is the testimony that comes forward from him. >> josh, tell us, if you will, the role this testimony, videotaped as you said, could play in the january 6th committee hearings next week. we know the one on tuesday is scheduled to be about the trump world's ties to hate groups like the proud boys and oathkeepers, but it seems this may fit into more with the other one on thursday, which is slated for primetime, potentially even the finale of the committee's

presentations. how central do they think cipollone's testimony will be to that? >> it could be pretty central to that. i mean, cipollone had his hand in a lot of different things. you know, for example, this issue of the coup at the justice department. remember, the president was toying with the idea of replacing the attorney general, which would have probably -- or the acting attorney general, which probably would have resulted in the resignation of everybody at the justice department. cipollone was directly involved in that activity. so he had a hand in, according to the accounts of people we talked to, resisting a lot of aspect of president trump's effort to fight back against his loss in the november election. so i think he could be a very pivotal role. you're correct, jonathan, doesn't seem to fit exactly with the tuesday hearing on the oath keepers and the proud boys. it seems more to fit with the broader themes of the committee, perhaps going into a wrap-up, high-profile wrap-up hearing

they may be trying to stage. >> all right. senior legal affairs reporter at "politico," josh gerstein, thank you very much. coming up, we continue to cover the assassination of former japanese prime minister shinzo abe. coming up at the top of the hour, we'll be speaking live with the ambassador to japan, rahm emanuel. he will be joining us live on this breaking story. again, shinzo abe, former prime minister, longest running prime minister of japan, assassinated at point-blank range. a man walked up to him and shot him twice while he was at a political event. rahm emanuel will be joining us momentarily to talk about what this all means and give us any more updates on what happened. we'll be right back with much more "morning joe." n what happe.

we'll be right back with much more "morning joe.

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about ten minutes before the top of the hour. a live look at the white house in washington, d.c. the sun coming up over

washington. so mark leibovich has a new essay in the "atlantic" entitled "the most pathetic men in america." it's adapted from his forthcoming book, "thank you for your servitude." in it, leibovich takes a look at what he calls the, quote, slavishly devoted republicans who trump drew to his side. he writes in part, this, it's been said before, but never can be emphasized enough, without the complicity of the republican party -- and, joe, this is a point you've been making all along -- donald trump would be just a glorified geriatric, fox-watching golfer. i've been watching the collaborators, trying to understand how they did what they did and how they could live with it. these were the kevin mccarthy, lindsey grahams, and other parasitic suck-ups, who made the trump era work for them, who

humored and indulged him all the way to the strains of american democracy. leibovich wrote this, i've known graham and mccarthy for years. they're a classically washington type. fun to be around, starstruck, and desperate to keep their jobs or get better ones to maximize their place in the all-important mix. on various occasions, i've asked them in so many words how they could saddle up to trump like they have. the answer basically is that they did it because it was the savviest course. because it was best for them. nearly all elected republicans in washington needed trump's blessing and voters to remain there. people like mccarthy and graham benefitted a great deal from making it work with trump or managing the relationship, as they say. i could get trump on the phone faster than any staff person who worked for him could get him on the phone, mccarthy bragged to me. there was always a breathless, racing quality to both men's voices when they talked about the thrill ride of being one of

trump's guys. joe. >> it is fascinating. this is a great piece. what's so fascinating is -- >> it's kind of sad. >> -- mark leibovich has a relationship with both the two republicans he profiles, kevin mccarthy and lindsey graham. he's gotten them to be quite honest through the years about how transactional the relationship with trump has been. he asks lindsey graham, basically after attacking donald trump harder than anybody else did in 2016, how could you be such a sycophant to him? lindsey said, well, if you know anything about me, it would be odd for me not to do this. and this is to try to stay relevant. mika, what is interesting, i've known lindsey since '94. >> yeah. >> and, i mean, lindsey just --

he just wanted to be at the sin center of things. >> aren't there moments in his career he stood up for people? >> ah -- >> no? i know meadows absolutely goes where the wind goes. >> well, so does lindsey. i mean, in -- i guess it was '96/'97, we had a coup attempt against newt gingrich, and 12 of us, sort of the red hots, the true believers as we were called, extremists as a lot of republicans called us, would have secret meetings. lindsey would -- it'd always be in lindsey's office. i never understood because he wasn't a true believer. he really didn't care. for us, it was about the deficit. it was about the debt. it was about smaller government. lindsey didn't really care about it. somehow, the meetings were always at lindsey's place. we'd have secret meetings, and we just started noticing that every time we showed up at the secret meetings, we had to walk through members of press on both

sides of the hall. we found out lindsey would have the secret ccoup meetings againt newt gingrich, and lindsey would tell the press the time and place of the meetings. we said, lindsey, you have to stop telling the press where the secret meetings are. someone was like, lindsey is a nice guy, but ipentagon. he went from that to being john mccain's best buddy, following john mccain around when he thought that served his interests. then -- which, of course, john mccain didn't think much of us. those of us going after gingrich, because we were, again, seen as being too intense on budget issues. then he went to mccain. and then, gene robinson, just like that, when trump got elected, after trashing throughout 2016, he became

trump's sycophant. >> absolutely. >> again, with lindsey, it has nothing to do with issues. as lindsey tells leibovich, and that is what is so extraordinary about this piece, he admits it. he says, he only cares about being at the center of things, being relevant. >> yeah, it is all transactional. it is all situational. lindsey graham is a senator to be a senator. that's basically it. and he and mccarthy and others rationalize this by saying, well, you know, it lets me -- i still have a seat at the table. i'm still able to, you know, influence events and policies. but to what end? what do they believe in, if anything? do they actually still believe in american democracy, or is that also sort of an optional feature that you can decide not to include with your package? i mean, it is incredible.

and what this dereliction of duty on the part of these elected republicans has done is it has also sort of allowed the republican base, because they won't level with the republican base, they won't tell the truth, it has allowed the republican base to also sort of go off the reservation. you have to entire party now from base to the top that is really out of control, yet still has a lot of power. it is astounding but horrible situation for our political system to be in. >> one of the things i've never understood about the republican party. i talked about our coup against newt gingrich. gingrich is the first republican speaker in 40 years. that certainly wasn't a popular move to make in my district. held town hall meetings, told them why it had to happen.

they said, okay. some of them didn't love it, but they understood. that's the thing, these republicans have never leveled from beginning to end about trump. but these two, mika, the reason why he focuses on these two, look at them on january 6th. they both speak out against donald trump. lindsey says he is done with trump. you have kevin mccarthy who says that trump should be removed from office. he's going to tell trump he needs to be removed from office. then he goes scurrying down to mar-a-lago. again, returns to being a sycophant. absolute shame. again, after the guy on the left tried to overthrow a presidential election. >> the democracy. oh, my god, it's just hard to understand. but we learn a lot in mark's book. eugene robinson, thank you. mark leibovich will be our guest on monday to talk more about his forthcoming book. coming up, we're getting back to this morning's big, breaking news on the world

stage. the assassination of former japanese prime minister shinzo abe. u.s. ambassador to japan rahm emanuel joins us at the top of the hour. "morning joe" is coming right back. e how do we show that we'll stand tall through the storms? nah. (thunder) how do we make our clients feel secure and- ugh... after people for over 170 years. "morning joe" is coming right back

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talk to your rheumatologist about rinvoq relief. rinvoq. make it your mission. learn how abbvie could help you save on rivnoq. it is the top of the hour, and we continue to follow the stunning, breaking news from japan. former japanese prime minister shinzo abe assassinated. he was shot while giving a political speech in the western part of the country, not too far from osaka. shot twice from behind. here is video of the moment of the attack. it's not very graphic, but, obviously, dramatic and disturbing. [ speaking foreign language ] [ gunshots ]. >> you can hear the two shots. he was hit from behind, once in the back and once in the neck. the suspected gunman was immediately tackled and

arrested. abe, a political giant in his country, was air lifted to the hospital but later died. japan and the world in shock this morning. let's bring in the tokyo bureau chief for the "economist," noah snyder. give us a sense of this news, of how it impacts japan on the world stage, and any reaction you're hearing from inside japan. >> well, as you said rightly, it's been shocking for japan. you know, this is the kind of thing that, as several people have commented here, happens in america, not in japan. >> right. >> gun violence is exceedingly rare. political violence, at least in the modern exceedingly rare. as you can see in the footage, politicians in japan seem to be up close and personal with constituents because of the security. the thought of assassination of a political leader, especially

someoneabe's stature, was kind of unfathomable. this has shaken not only the political landscape in japan but people's sense of japan itself, of japan as a peaceful, safe, stable nation. >> yeah. if you could, talk about his stature there over the past 20 yore years. obviously, the longest serving prime minister in japanese history. he comes from a family that's dominated japanese politics in the post-war era, and also really on the cutting edge as it pertained to moving away from a post-war stand of pat, being a pacifist nation. talk about that. and the impact he's had on the country's politics over the past 20 years. >> it's really hard to overstate

how consequential abe has been for japan. you know, not just the longest serving prime minister, but in many ways, a prime minister who transformed the country's direction, particularly, as you mentioned, in security policy and foreign policy. seeking really to carve out a more prominent role for japan on the world stage. you know, under his administration, you saw japan begin to really be active in asia and in the world in a way that hadn't been the case since the second world war. you see some of the legacy of that in institutions that abe left behind, groupings like the quad, which brought together america, japan, australia, and india. ideas like the free and open indo-pacific, which is now kind of in most of the western democracies.

the trade pack which donald trump pulled out of. he really left a substantial legacy in foreign policy. though he didn't achieve his lifelong political goal of revising japan's post-war constitution, he did reinterpret it, tweak it in ways that made japan more of a player in military and security terms, as well. now, of course, these changes were not without controversy. he was perhaps as polarizing a figure as he was a controversial one. but nonetheless, for all of the resistance to his reforms while he was in office, no one imagined that his storied career would end this way. >> absolutely. >> and as you said, hard for us to overstate the force he was in japanese politics. we certainly just don't really have a parallel in american

politics, the massive impact he had there. tokyo bureau chief for the "economist," noah snei dsneiderk you. we appreciate it. we'll be talking to the ambassador to japan, rahm emanuel, in a few minutes. jonathan lemire, what have you heard from the white house? >> sadness and stunned disbelief, as the whole world is coming to grips with what happened yesterday in japan. gun violence so rare there, as we've been talking about all morning. shinzo abe, the former prime minister, yes, polarizing but still well-thought-of certainly in japan, for the most part, and around the globe. certainly here in the u.s. not everyone agreed with his politics, but there was a sense he was doing his best to bring japan and the u.s. closer together. he and president biden knew each other from the now president's time as vice president. mr. abe hosted then president trump twice in japan when trump was in office and also visited him in mar-a-lago.

he had served two different times as prime minister. was giving a campaign speech when shot down. the current prime minister, kishida, has said the election will go on this sunday. that democracy will not be intimidated by the shooting. we should point out, we don't yet have a motive for this senseless killing. abe is 67. we'll be hearing from president biden about this a little later today when he gives remarks about an executive order he is going to sign, trying to protect abortion rights. >> certainly, he was -- he was a polarizing figure in japan, only because he was trying, again, to move away from the post-war pacifist role that the japanese had taken. he wanted to be more of a military partner with the united states against a rising china. also, very close relations with taiwan. also warned of a chinese invasion of taiwan.

obviously, had a strained relationship with the chinese communist party because of that. they have sent their condolences today. but you brought up donald trump. he was actually, again, far more aggressive than most japanese politicians and prime ministers. soon after donald trump was elected, he was -- he got his phone number on his own, called donald trump, circumvented normal diplomatic channels. got in touch with donald trump and had a meeting, mika. >> was the first over. >> yeah, was the first over. >> so we're going to continue to cover this breaking news. again, in a few moments, we'll be talking to the u.s. ambassador to japan, rahm emanuel. joining the conversation, we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle. the host of the podcast "on brand with donny deutsch," donny deutsch. and opinion columnist at the

"washington post," dana milbank. good to have you on board this hour. dana, in your piece "give biden the break," you write, here's the deal, democrats. you need to give joe biden a break. for weeks, democrats arrayed themselves in traditiontraditio circular fire formation, outraged about mass shootings, the supreme court's overturning of roe v. wade, and maga republicans assault op democracy. there's just one problem, with the too cool joe complaints, biden has been saying what he is accused of avoiding. democrats are habitually more self-critical than republicans, who remain silent as donald trump's election crimes pile up. there is genuine frustration more can't get done. that's the fault of another joe, joe manchin, not joe biden, and

of a broken political system that protects minority rule. it's fair for democrats to ask whether in 2024 they should renominate a man in his 82nd year, but this goldilocks tale about biden's too hot and too cold rhetoric needs to be put to bed. dana, there are some poll numbers that back up the complaints, as well. i tend to agree with you, especially on the world stage. joe biden has done a lot to stabilize what needed stabilizing, that perhaps americans don't spend a much time worrying about because they have kitchen table issues to deal with. and there may be the problem. because we have inflation and we have economic woes and concerns of our own here in america that fall on joe biden's lap. >> yeah. let us be clear, his poll numbers are low because for americans, it's costing a fortune to fill up the gas tanks. they're looking at inflation and

the general misery of the world and the country right now. his poll numbers aren't low because he is not being more forceful or meeting the moment on gun violence or abortion or the other issues at hand here. i think that's what's happening, i think, particularly with the left of the democratic party. they're saying, if only he were more outspoken. then they're criticizing him for not saying the exact sort of things that he's been saying. you know, you were talking a couple moments ago about my friend mark leibovich's new book, about the slavish devotion the republicans had to trump. the democrats have the opposite problem. it is this perpetualrpetual, ci firing squad, demanding biden be something other than what is possible in this moment. >> i was going to say, dana, it was ridiculous, and we've said it on this show an awful lot, the first year in the majority, democrats would just attack each

other, then go out into a hall and hold press conferences. it was like lindsey graham announing where our secret coup meetings against newt gingrich was. guys, do that behind closed doors. they would attack each other. i've yet to hear anybody come up with a good idea on what joe biden should do about six republican appointed supreme court justices or about the fact that joe manchin and kyrsten sinema are doing what they consider to be in their best political interests, like lindsey graham and kevin mccarthy. >> right. he's not getting any sort of consideration of that possibility. then when he does go out there and lights his hair on fire, you know, he compares potentially manchin and sinema and republicans to wallace, they go, whoa, you're being too divisive. full months later, they go, he's

not forceful enough on the urgent threats to democracy we are facing. dammed if he does and dammed if he doesn't. as i wrote in the piece, the problem is not joe biden, the problem is joe manchin. this is not meant as a full-throated defense of everything, every policy joe biden is pursuing. nor, as i said, does this mean you want to have been a 82-year-old guy being your nominee in 2024. but, on the other hand, they're sort of blaming him for things that he is simply not responsible for. >> you know, dana -- >> mike barnicle. >> -- one question i have about all of this, in addition to the fact that joe biden could literally change the last initial of his first name to be job biden, given everything that has fallen upon his shoulders, inflation, a global war, global inflation, but with regard to the left of the democratic party, how is it that the president of the united states, we're talking about the sad, the

tragic news out of japan, abe being shot and killed, assassinated, how is it that a president of the united states who speaks quietly to world leaders around the globe, pulls them together in a unifying aspect to combat the russians and the war in ukraine, gets very little credit for convincing people like abe to help with this effort, to help with trying to neutralize china, to help with going against russia in terms of ukraine? he gets no credit for the quiet successes that he's had, and the loudness overcomes everything. >> well, the short answer is, i think, americans don't care much about foreign policy, maybe in the brief, early days or week of a crisis, mike. but i think, you know, it is worth looking at. think of the leaders of canada, britain being replaced, france, germany. they're all in the same miserable place in the polls,

more or less, that joe biden is now. so this is because of inflation and the other problems dragging them down, as well. so there is this sort of international malaise, to borrow a word from the 1970s, that's dragging everybody down, even if they are younger and even if they're more charismatic. >> you know, donny deutsch, it is remarkable that there is so little institutional knowledge among some of the democrats. you know, i guess republicans do the same thing. they all do the same thing, but, you know, biden is about two years in. he's having some problems. economically with inflation. of course, again, i saw colin today talking about inflation being joe biden's fault, which is, of course, hilarious, considering donald trump had the biggest deficits, the biggest debt, the most bloated budgets in american history.

but you look at reagan in '82. you know, people were saying he was too old. republicans got crushed two years in. clinton in '94. you look at barack obama in 2010. this has happened even to the most popular of presidents. i guess, again, democrats don't have to be excited about it. they don't have to be happy about it. but, yeah, we have gas price problems, but among western countries, our gas prices are lower than most of the rest of the world. we have inflation problems, but we're fairing as well or much better than great britain and other countries in europe. you just wonder why they're panicking the way they are. they certainly aren't helping themselves, and they're certainly not helping their president, not helping their party. i'm just talking politics. >> yeah, people feel a certain way right now, voters and democrats. i don't think there's ever been more of a right brain reaction to what is going on in the

world, when you put together guns, insurrection, put together roe v. wade. somehow, biden has not -- even if the words are there, you can try to transcribe and look at them -- he hasn't been able to translate the feelings people are having, the combination of outrage and fear and worry. it's not coming across -- it is interesting you brought up reagan and obama. both of them, obviously, from different sides of the aisle, were fantastic at channelling the feelings of their voters and being able to react to them and being able to present in a certain way. there's something about biden that doesn't connect. i'm not saying it is his age. there's something. he gets up there and he speaks, and you don't lean in. somehow, he's not been able to garner and take what's going on in his audience, bring it back and reflect it back out. somehow, that connection of feelings is not -- it is very hard to explain. you can't put it into words. if we transcribed all of his messages that he's put out

there, he's saying the right things. it's just not connecting in the gut. >> yeah. you know, dana, it is interesting, you've been around washington long enough to know whenever somebody starts talking about a problem, a political problem, a problem with communication, it's not about communication. >> no. >> i just want to ask you, though, is it about communication here? is it that, somehow, joe biden doesn't seem forceful enough, doesn't seem engaged enough? the words on the page don't match the emotions americans are feeling? >> if he was forceful, people would call him that. >> which they have. look, i don't doubt that somebody, a better speaker would do better, it's not what they're saying. why isn't he meeting the moment on abortion? what is he supposed to do?

apparently, set up pop-up abortion clinics in yellowstone national park, which he's not going to do. he'll get whacked for that, though this morning he is coming out with abortion executive orders. >> donny, we'll take dana's point there. but there is a number of democrats who are upset with the president right now. we've got a new story out this morning about a governor's call a few weeks ago. they lit into top biden aides saying, where is the message on the economy, on abortion rights? you're leaving us out here stranded heading into a midterms which they are very nervous about. the president is going to be speaking a few hours from now on abortion rights. what message -- we understand his hands, and democrats understand, his hands are largely tied. >> yes. >> inflation, mostly out of his control. supreme court, mostly out of his control. vladimir putin's efforts in ukraine, mostly out of his control. but they want to feel like he is fighting for them. how should he do that? >> i'm going to repeat myself. mika, you kind of said it,

people don't want to see the outrage, then they'll say this. yes, whatever he does, there's going to be people criticizing. right now, and we all get this, we all get stopped by people and people say, oh, my god, the it's never been this bad. what's going to happen? can you believe roe v. wade? can you believe january 6th? somehow, with the charisma word, we need our leader to get up there and say, we're going to get it right. you know, once again, i can't set up abortion clinics right now, but we are going to do whatever it takes. just get up there and say that. whatever it takes, we're going to have to get back on the right track. raise your voice. lean into the camera. say there's the right side and there's the wrong side. we are on the right side. take some of the messages that gavin newsom put in the ad against ron desantis, which was basically, you know, freedom, democracy, and this is what we're about. it's very, very hard to put into words what is missing. it's that x-factor.

it's that special thing that people can then -- hands are on the wheel firmly. there's things he can't do, but you can make people feel a certain way. >> hey, joe, let me ask you about a theory i heard the other day from a very, very smart person, about exactly what we've been talking about right here. getting an audience to listen, getting an audience to react. it is this, the theory is that this country, after enduring, you know, three years, still enduring, living alone due to the virus, being isolated from neighbors, having that empty feeling a lot of us of loneliness because you don't have the human contacts that we did three, four, five years ago. you pile that onwith the trump years of chaos. this nation, as a whole, is suffering from a form of ptsd.

one of the elements of ptsd is that when you try to treat it, whether with a speech from a president, speech from candidates for president, speeches from politics, anybody talking to the nation, the first reaction among the people who have been afflicted with this version of ptsd, if you will, is avoidance. they avoid the reality of their lives. instead, they exist looking at the gas pump, realizing they're putting $90 worth of gas in the car. they don't regard it as global inflation, it's personal to them. but that concept, of the united states of america, the large elements of the population suffering a form of ptsd, do you think that's a factor in what we're going through right now? >> well, i'm sure it is. i also, though, if you talked to jimmy carter or people that worked in the carter administration, they would tell you that it didn't matter whether he was attacked by a

killer rabbit or whether he collapsed in a race or, you know, all the stories in "the new york times" or the "washington post" and "wall street journal" write about him being weak. you know, my dad went from paying 33 cents a gallon for gas to paying over $1 per gallon for gas. he talked about it all the time. i've always thought -- and, dana, i'd love to get your input on this. i've always thought we americans give the president who is in office too much credit or too much blame for how the economy is going. people that study the u.s. economy their entire lives have no idea what's going to happen next. they have broad, general ideas, but, you know, carter got run over by the economy. '82, the great communicate e ronald reagan, got run over by the economy. time and time again, you have

these forces, as you've said. i named three presidents who had horrible midterms. ronald reagan, bill clinton, and barack obama. as you point out, you know, try to find me a better communicator than one of those three presidents. >> yeah. guess what, none of the candidates up for election in the midterms wanted their president to be with them at this time, just like we're seeing with biden now. >> right. >> so there is nothing unusual about that. look, were he more charismatic, surely it'd help at the margins, but we were going to be in this place no matter what leader we're talking about. you know, you had the gallup poll on trust and institutions out. it is at an all-time low, going back to when they first started looking at it in the early 1970s. across the board, democrats, republicans, men, women, black, white, it doesn't matter, americans are in an awful mood. it's been developing for a very

long time. it wouldn't matter who is in the position right now, he would be, or she would be suffering because of the mood of the nation. >> certainly would. again, i understand donny's point and hear it from a lot of democrats. mike talks about ptsd that the united states is going through. this has been -- we've had a rough five, six, seven years. i will just say, though, asda as dana points out, mika, whether it is reagan, whether it is clinton, whether it is obama, you have, in all three, gifted communicators, people who knew how to connect with the american people. they all got crushed in their midterms. of course, the end of that story is, of course, barack obama easily won re-election two years later. bill clinton easily won re-election two years later. ronald reagan, who a lot of people were saying was too old for the job, won 49 states two

years later. so we never know. we're not saying -- >> patterns. >> -- joe biden is ronald reagan or bill clinton or barack obama. we're just saying politics is politics. people need to -- >> you're picked on when you're president, for sure. >> it's your job. >> dana milbank, thank you very much for being on this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," we're following new details from japan after the assassination of former prime minister, the longest running prime minister, shinzo abe. u.s. ambassador to japan, rahm emanuel, will be our guest. also ahead, more from the resignation of british prime minister boris johnson. the fallout, who might replace him, and what it means for the u.s. relationship with the uk. >> of course, that hair. the beautiful hair. >> and the hair, yes. plus, new video from the january 6th attack on the capitol. the select committee prepares for more hearings next week. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. week.

you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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unbeatable internet made to do anything so you can do anything. the first thing you need to know about boris johnson is he is a lawyer. trumpian is the ease with which he tells stories, but boris is a -- sorry. porkies. porky pies, lies. you don't know, american audience, sorry. "new york times." boris johnson a liar. just keep it simple, stick to that. boris denied any knowledge of any parties until it became clear he was at some of them. >> mr. speaker, i want to apologize. >> ie, he lied. to the country and to parliament. and he did it again this week when he lied to parliament by denying he'd previously lied to parliament. that's boris all over. his lies are no secret. he essentially lied to the queen

when he illegally shut down parliament. he lied to the country when he said brexit would be good for farming and fishing and trade deals and the economy. he's been fired twice for lying. he was fired as a journalist from the "london times" newspaper for simply making stuff up. he was fired for lying about shagging someone behind his wife's back. boris and trump, both products of a broken political system that rewards ignorance and hubris. like trump, boris says he loves his country, yet boris and his vicious, right-wing populists show open disdain for all the things good about it. >> that's a portion of a saterical video, "the first thing to know about boris johnson is he's a liar." >> ka comedian, wow.

boris johnson has been lying his entire professional career. fired from the "times" for lying. as gene robinson said, he knew boris when he worked over in london, and johnson would just make things up for his "guardian" profile. lied time and time again when he was in politics and when he was prime minister. absolutely remarkable it took so long to catch up. again, as we said last hour, conservatives didn't dump him because he was, you know, lying, because he got caught lying about covid parties. they dumped him because it was in their best political interest. i suspect for the same reason republicans are still scared to show donald trump the door as leader of their party. >> yes. but if you go back to, obviously, your previous segment and mark leibovich, these guys

do act that way. they're open about it. you're starting to see people sneak up. they're not as adamant about the support of trump. it is waning only because they see the same numbers. they see desantis beating him in polls in new hampshire. that's going to start. once again, if we show on screen today versus 18 months ago, it is different. i think it will continue to wane. yes, these sycophants, these weak little sniveling, pathetic people, as we've all documented so many different ways, trump still has the grip, but the grip is not as firm. i think it will continue to weaken as january 6th committee continues to go forward and as someone like desantis as an alternative shows up. i don't think it's the same as it's been. >> yeah. mike barnicle, you've obviously, for decades, been following politicians, covering politicians, writing about politicians, commenting on

politicians. what is so remarkable about the era we're in now, the boris johnson era, the donald trump era, well, the johnson era coming to an end, perhaps same with trump, is that just one of the lies, one of the scandals, one of the flip-flops, used to be that'd be put in a 30-second commercial and would end a politician's career. both johnson and trump very open about lying, and as the russians call it, it's a fire hose of falsehoods that, at some point, become overwhelming and, at some point, the base accepts from their leader. yeah, he's lying, but you know what, he wins elections. >> well, you know, they both are skilled liars. boris johnson clearly just lied himself right out of office. but the worst danger is not only are they skilled liars, but they

convince normal people, normal people, average citizens, that everybody lies. everybody in public life lies. not true. but the worst element of it, joe, is the cast of characters around these two liars. trump and boris johnson. otherwise educated people, people of title, party members in england, people who knew they were lying, who knew the dangers and the damage that those lies were causing, and said nothing. and still say nothing. have to be subpoenaed to be forced to tell their own version of the truth and their truth about what they heard and what they saw. and the damage that that has done, in addition to the enormous, and perhaps lasting damage to some of our institutions that donald trump did, the damage that that does to the average person out there who said, oh, everybody lies.

i don't know how long it'll last, but it is part of what we're all carrying. >> mike, we want to jump in. because we have joining us now live on the phone the u.s. ambassador to japan, rahm emanuel. rahm, thanks so much for calling in. obviously, some terrible news after the assassination of the longest running prime minister of japan, shinzo abe. what is the reaction there? what else do you know about what happened? >> well, i mean, first of all, it is a tragic event, and i would just say, you know, this is the most un-japanese like thing to happen. i think people are still in shock because they're trying to kind of grab what this means and understand it. it's not something that is -- i don't have any exact statistics, but i don't think japan has double digit gun violence or gun

homicides in the country all year. to have a political assassination with a gun is just something unheard of on a civilian level, let alone someone of this stature. it's not really been -- i mean, people are just in shock, i think is the right word. then i also think, i want to acknowledge, he's not only -- he was a japanese statesman, a world leader, and an unwavering friend of america. i think his voice will be missed not only in japan but around the globe. when you think about it, here's a person that articulated this concept of a free and open indo-pacific, which we've adopted as our own, but it was he that put the words and the concept together. he was a person that originated the whole idea of a quad, and two american presidents made it their own. he put together and helped initiate the transpacific

partnership trade agreement. when america stepped back, you know, withdrew from it, he stepped up for japan to lead it. this is a person that has been transformational. it's going to be the loss of his voice, going to be sorrowfully missed at an essential time. >> mr. ambassador, first from the "washington post," firearms are strictly regulated in japan. the national police agency says last year, there was only one death and four injuries. secondly, i wanted to follow up on what you were just talking about. what a giant figure he was not only in japanese politics but also moving that country forward. you gave a speech that we played. you gave a press conference we played on our show several months ago, and you were talking about the importance of standing up to authoritarian leaders. of course, we're seeing that in

europe with vladimir putin. but part of what you were talking about, obviously, we also heard from the former prime minister talking about the need to stand up to china's growing influence there. could you talk about that? >> i think, you know, i want to say, when everybody recognizes a political achievement, i want to pick up on one thing you said. he's the longest serving prime minister in japanese history. he comes from a rich political history of a family. also, the japanese family gave him that confidence because, in many ways, he was ahead of his time. he was ahead of the japanese public and moved them and took them to a place of leadership. he understood that and articulated a notion right here, and japan is america's long ally, that you cannot allow any

country, china, russia, to be so flagrant in the use of power against values, interests, and common trust. and he was a trusted partner to the united states. both for president obama and then for president trump. even when he wasn't prime minister, he was a force for our shared interests. that makes him, i mean, really, truly, not just because he was long serving, that's one measure, but the measure is what he did in the time, not just the time he served. he transformed a vision for the area. that's why when we all talk about the free and open indo-pacific, it was abe, who p those words and the concept out there that everybody has now adopted in a normal phrase, as if it's their open, but it was his. the idea of a quad, he constructed that.

the idea of a trade agreement that brought -- that helped america be a permanent pacific power, he was the person with president obama who came up with that. this is a person who put his thumb on the scale of history and tipped it. i think that's why everybody -- i mean, it's just tragic, what happened here. it's so unlike -- it's the most un-japanese thing i have seen, being in my tenure here in japan, because it is not in the character. violence, let alone gun violence, in the loss of a statesman, so senselessness. what i was going to say to you is, you know, when you think of an america, we find out pretty quickly, like, what was the motivation? obviously, the police are working on this, but that's not yet known.

there's no sense of what this -- who this was who shot the former prime minister. what was the motivation? hours later, it's just not -- this is just out of character for the country, which is why people and the country is still reeling. it'll change society. this won't easily fade into the fabric. this is going to change society here. >> well, and you look at, obviously, the circumstances around the shooting. he was just campaigning in a median in the middle of a roadway without a whole lot of security around him. again, that speaks to what you were saying before. this is so extraordinarily rare in japan that, obviously, it's going to change the way that politicians campaign. it may change the way government officials lead their lives, right? >> yeah.

i mean, well, one of the beauties of being here is there is a great sense of freedom, a great sense of trust. and a great sense of, i mean, belief in not only the system but the people that lead it. that's why this will be -- you know, i don't want to get ahead of myself because we don't know how it'll be -- but one of the things i noticed and i still love about japan is what a trusting society it is. as you said, the former prime -- >> we might have lost ambassador rahm emanuel. u.s. ambassador to japan, again, giving his reaction to the assassination of former japanese prime minister shinzo abe. really this consequential place in history, being the longest running prime minister and

having so much impact on the u.s.-japanese relationship. this is really a blow on a number of levels, including the fact that gun violence is just not a thing in japan. that will also be another set of questions that have to be answered. >> well, jonathan lemire, you picked up two things listening to ambassador rahm emanuel there. one was, obviously, the extraordinary impact the former prime minister had on japanese politics, as well as the region, the world, but also, you could just hear the sense of shock in his voice about how this is just something that is beyond the comprehension of the japanese people. again, the "washington post" reporting that there were ten shootings last year and only one death in japan from gunfire. >> yeah, it is an extraordinary

statistic, which makes this shooting all the more stunning. we should note, initial police report, the weapon may have been homemade. photographs of it. it has duck tape on it. police say they'll have more to say in the hours ahead about the weapon, how the suspect got his hands on it, and whatever the motivation may have been. because we do not know at this time what led to this tragic and stunning shooting. yes, to the ambassador's point, the former prime minister's legacy will certainly live on for decades to come, trying to bring japan closer to the u.s., to be more of a regional rival, try to stand up to china, to be a big part of -- in fact, abe was one of the forefathers of this quad concept. president biden has really embraced it, far more so than his predecessor, along with australia, japan, south korea, india. i think it may be a quintuple, adding a fifth country.

there were meetings last week, summits in europe, on this concept. the biden administration trying to broaden the indo-pacific influence, as well. that will be part of prime minister abe's legacy, as well. >> all right. coming up, a conversation about the shifting culture on the supreme court. our next guest says the justices are starting to sound just as divided as the rest of us. only, their decisions carry so much more weight. we'll be right back. r decisionso much more weight we'll be right back.

i want to go back to donny deutsch. let's circle back to the circumstance we were having before ambassador rahm emanuel called in. it was on a problem the white house was having. you brought up a good point off air, and that is, that people really feel -- and we're about to talk about the supreme court -- but people feel it's not just about the economy.

it's about them losing basic rights. talk about that. >> yeah. you know, the contrast between obama and reagan and the people able to tap into feelings, as i talked about, they were overcoming or trying to overcome a left brain obstacle, the economy sucks, you're losing money, and the gas pump is up. something different the here. yes, inflation is 8% and 10%, but what's causing the dismay, the panic, the anguish, is not that, it's, as you just said, it's, wait a second, a woman doesn't have the right to choose anymore? wait a second, elections might not count anymore? wait a second, i can't send my kids to school without feeling like they might get shot? that's different. that's what biden has got to plug into. it's not just, we're going to tackle the inflation and everything and do whatever it takes. it's the stuff that people are walking around going, wait, is this my country? what's happening? >> right. >> somehow, he's got to plug

into that dismay, that rage, that fear, that anguish, and that's not what's happening. >> and how we got here. >> yeah. >> which is, you know, a lot that he can talk about. you know, in the weeks since the supreme court overturned roe v. wade, there is a roe v. wade,

you see a polite approach. in the dissent in roe v. wade, still acknowledged up front that, look, you know, the majority opinion demands my respect. it's done a lot of real legal scholarship here. in casey v planned parenthood, the tone gets harsher. you see the justices, you know, warning of the darkness if the other side gets another vote, kind of mocking each other. by the time you get to dobbs, they're just flat out accusing each other of not fulfilling their job of letting their own political inclinations get in the way of applying the law.

and so the other justice that even attempts to sort of, you know, find some -- some middle ground there is justice roberts. you know, basically told to take a hide by both sides of the dobbs decision. >> you know, it is fascinating. i'm glad you brought up chief justice roberts. after the affordable care act, he shocked a lot of people, angered conservatives on the bench with him, but one of roberts' most telling lines, as an institutionalist was, don't ask us to do on the court what you can take care of next year in the voting booth. we can't overturn something, basically, that abruptly. this was something, obviously, i think was lost immediately after the newsthat abruptly. this was something obviously i think was lost immediately after the news was breaking, that it was chief justice

roberts trying to pull either kavanaugh or amy coney barrett over to take more of an institutional role. what roberts has in common with all those people you talked about in the past is he was an institutionalist. he understood that the supreme court's power in part came from the respected americans, the esteem that the americans held the man. >> roberts in this case was trying to make a narrower decision. he felt you could uphold the mississippi law that would ban abortions past 15 weeks without overturning roe v wade. he was suggesting that 15 weeks was a sufficient time to exercise the right that roe protected. that kind of middle ground seems impossible right now. he writes in his opinion that both the court's opinion,

majority opinion and descent display relentless freedom from doubt that i cannot share. he is willing to short of wrestle with his own doubts and ambiguities much more so than any other side of the court. >> you mentioned that roberts was the only one seemingly interested in finding a middle ground. as the decision came down we heard from justice clarence thomas suggesting that the courts should look at other rights to privacy that can include contraception, same-sex marriage, others. that's set off a lot of alarm bells across the country, democrats, the white house, is there anything to stop the forces from steam rolling roberts and others who might be looking to compromise? >> the majority in dobbs assured over and over again they wouldn't. this only applies to abortion because abortion is unique and

deals with potential life. tom was as one with that and in his own opinion said it was up for grabs. the logic of the dobbs majority rooting that right needs to be rooted in history of the united states, if it's not part of the constitution in explicit sense seems to leave the door open and certainly clarence thomas seems inclined to walk through it regardless of the ashowers that the dobbs majority repeatedly wants to give. >> let's be very blunt here. you look at the legal reasoning of the decision. clarence thomas is the only one in the majority that's telling the truth. as i said before, they have ripped the plank, the legal plank, they have ripped the precedent out of the foundation of all of these privacy rights

and to say oh you know what, this will only apply to abortion because this will only apply to abortion. it makes absolutely no legal sense. there are going to be federal judges that are going to take this decision and run with it and the right of americans' privacy in the most intimate parts of their life now up for grabs by supreme court. >> that's why this is an historic story. we are living through right now a pivotal moment in the history of the supreme court. i would like to ask am i wrong when i think after i read decents that we are now looking at a supreme court where colleague at is almost dead. >> it certainly seems to be the

case when you read the descent on this ruling. you see how they flat out suggest -- they don't suggest. they say that the majority is being guided by its politics and they are no longer faithfully and impartially applying the law. that's a far cry from the kind of dissents you know whether in casey or roe when they still seem to accept they are embarked on a common enterprise at the supreme court and differed on sort of fundamental interpretations. that in this particular case has gone by the way side. >> pulitzer prize winning, thank you so much for bringing this to the table.

next, the latest from japan following assassination of shinzo abe. plus we are watching for the health of the economy. june jobs report is expected to show slower growth. could it be a sign of a looming recession? we'll speak with a top white house economic adviser about the new numbers. morning joe will be right back. . . morning joe although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have long term consequences. now as you're thinking about all the vaccines your teen might needwill be right bac make sure you ask your doctor if your teen is missing meningitis b vaccination. it could be you! wow. really? of course, you'll have to eat your greens, watch your stress, wear sunscreen... but to live to 150, we're developing solutions

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we are rolling into the third hour of morning joe. we begin with breaking news, shinzo abe dead after shot twice this morning. officials say abe was campaigning for a candidate ahead of japan's upcoming house of counselors elections when he was shot from behind, once in the back and once in the neck, with what appeared to be a home made gun.

the chaos from the shooting and subsequent take down of the man police say carried out the attack was caught on camera. you might find this video disturbing. abe was immediately air lifted to a nearby hospital after officials say he went into a state of cardiac arrest and later died. the u.s. ambassador to japan joined us exclusively on morning joe just a few moments ago. >> a tragic event. i would say this is the most unjapanese like thing to happen since i have been here. i think people are still in

shock because they're trying to grab what this means and understand it. i don't have exact statistics but i don't think japan has double digit gun homicides in the country all year. so to have a political assassination by gun is just something unheard of on a civilian level let alone somebody of this stature. it's not really been -- people are just in shock, i think is the right word. i also want to acknowledge he was a japanese statesman, a world leader, an unwavering friend of america. >> ambassador rahm emanuel there, joe, really pointing out the two shocking fronts on this story. number one, the fact that a

world leader was shot point blank range practically in the back in japan. you can hear the shock in his voice. it just doesn't happen at all. secondly how consequential the loss of abe is. he was very politically active, longest running prime minister. he was prime minister twice. his grandfather was prime minister. his legacy is consequential in many points especially in building u.s. japan relationship. >> he has been a massive presence in the japanese politics in the 21st century. he served twice, last time from 2012 to 2020. he was moving japan forward trying to have a stronger position militarily. of course there was a post world war ii constitution. he wanted to reform it, allow japan to carry more of its own weight and its defense policy, wanted to be a stronger

military presence to counter balance a risek china, wanted to be a stronger ally to the united states militarily. he worked hard to do that. he also wanted to put together alliances in a specific region that would also, again, serve as a counter balance to a rising china. it's hard to over state two things this morning. one, the extraordinary significance, as you said, of not only him but also his family in japanese politics. but secondly, how shocking this is especially in japan, "washington post" reporting this morning that there were ten shootings last year in japan and only one death and four injures. >> quoting rahm, world leader, japanese statement, friend of america, the clarity of his voice will be missed. the united states has lost a

trusted partner and outspoken advocate for our shared ideals. michelle, what more can you tell us about the gun, the gunman, and the legacy of this incredible leader? >> it is an incredibly shocking day. that's the best way to describe it like the ambassador said. what we know is limited but according to reports the gunman had home made his weapon. he went outside of the very strict gun regulations in japan and made his own weapon. he apparently said that he intended to shoot to kill because he felt frustration with abe. that's not independently confirmed yet, but that's what japanese media have been reporting. it's sent shock waves throughout the country. not only is it rare to see any

shooting at all. it is also shinzo abe, possibly most recognizable politician in and outside of japan from japan. >> that's probably what is really making this even more of a blow, not just on the world stage around the world but for the people of japan who recognize not just his name but his face and know his family. i mean, the legacy of shinzo abe goes back generations. >> absolutely. as japan's longest serving prime minister, abe is associated with a period of stability and trust in his leadership. that's the reason why he has done so much on the campaign trail ahead of the election. people know what he is about. people trust his leadership. he has been controverse i can but after he left office, his popularity rating went up. people associated him with trusted leadership.

it's really just a devastating day here in japan. >> michelle, good morning. speak to us a little bit if you will about abe's successor, how he is approaching today, what his message is to the country, how us trying to signal to a frankly rattled region about what happened. >> he is a friend of abe. he talks about that. he delivered very long remarks today about what this means and how heart breaking it is, and how devastating it is fosse an exceptional leader gone in this way. that's pretty much of of what he said. he is not a very expressive man. he is a stoic man. he did say that the election for monday will continue. the leadership decided they can't let violence change the

course of the democratic process in japan. they will enhance security measures tomorrow and sunday ahead of the election. they will move forward and go right back on the campaign trail until tomorrow as a sign of trust in japan's democracy. >> the tokyo bureau chief for "washington post," thank you so much for joining us this morning. let's bring in staff writer at the atlantic and apple buddy of apple bomb. >> . first, your reaction. >> the points people have made is maybe the most important. in japan this is very abnormal. they don't have a tradition of political violence like we do. they're not used to the idea that one of the leaders can be more assassinated.

that make it more shocking. we unfortunately have violence as part of the politics, the news cycle. it is more normal. it is important to reflect on the difference between our cultures. >> in your recent piece you write what brexit did to boris johnson and britain. you wrote, quote, brexit, solution to the problem johnson and supporters described is based on a series of lies. electorate was promised that departure from e.u. would lead not only to fewer immigrants but greater prosperity, more welfare spending, less crowded hospitals. instead six years after the vote britain is less prosperous and more unequal. if british politics were a fault, brexit would be the long ago tragedy that haunts all the main characters even if they hadn't been born when it happened. johnson's perceived is a

byproduct of brexit, perceived failure to keep economic promises is a byproduct of brexit. flailing economy itself is a partial by product of brexit. because we are talking about westminster, not washington, it is extremely unlikely, unimaginable that johnson will stage a coo, encourage violent march on house of commons or support the public hanging. johnson has already broken many unwritten rules and possibly some written ones. >> that stuff only happens here. >> you have written in your extra book about how leaders in hungary and poland made up crises. i talked time and again about donald trump talking about building the wall in 2016 when actually illegal immigration to the united states from mexico was a 50 year low.

you go through and once again here is one more phoney populist, oxford phoney populist. we have our ivy league phoney populists. coming up with a solution to a probe that did not exist. talk about how that ultimately brought him down. >> it is important to acknowledge that brexit was not immediate cause of why boris johnson's cabinet began resigning, why people were so angry. that was because of a series of lies he told, some important and some trivial that added up over time to a picture of somebody who is dishonest and also his method of dismissing the lies by laughing or making a joke. it worked for a while and then it didn't work at all of the really in the background of that as you say and as i wrote is this big lie. the lie was that brexit was this great advantage for uk, that it would bring british

more money. there was a slogan, we will get 350 million pounds a week from national healthcare service if we leave european union. that was a plead up number. they knew it was a made up number. nevertheless they kept repeating it. this idea of if we leave europe, we'll have more money and be better off, we'll get sovereignty back. that was a package and it was utterly dishonolulu eh!. brexit has made it harder to trade with europe, has created a series of complicated political problems in ireland and with the european union. it's removed britain from important councils. it is really a shame that the uk is not part of the eu foreign policy making mechanisms and isn't part of the conversation about ukraine taking place there. so they weakened the country and made the country poor and

made business more difficult all in the same of some kind of super plan that was going to help poor people get back at the elite or something like that. it was made up. that's what's in the background to a lot of the other scandals. this feeling that johnson didn't tell the truth. he didn't tell the truth about that either. >> you have written a good bit about funny populism, the lies, falsehoods that's polluted western democracies. do you see with the january 6th committee's work in somehow breaking through to the american public with boris johnson's departure, do you see that perhaps this phoney populism, i won't say may be coming to an end but maybe reached its zenith and may be

in decline? >> i think it's clear that people fighting populism and lies, like january 6th lie, are better at doing it. we understand that just shouting you're wrong or here is a fact doesn't change anybody's mind. what you need to do is present people with a digestible narrative as the january 6 committee has done, cutting up the story into segments, doing it slowly over time. one of the most important things they've done is present the evidence, 90, 95% of it is from republicans. not just republicans but people close to donald trump. the idea is you are hearing this story not from the left and not from trump's enemies. you are hearing it from trump's friends. the idea is to persuade people that you are hearing the story.

that was populism. them saying it's not 350 pounds. it's not true. that didn't work. you need a counter narrative, a counter explanation, give them a sense of reality. >> good morning. it's jonathan. joe radar talking about liz cheney, diving deeper on the role, what she represents, she was at the white house yesterday as a guest attending presidential medal of freedom ceremony there. she's also someone facing a very stiff primary challenge in wyoming even as there is buzz she might run for president in 2024. tell us about her importance and what you see her future being and what that can tell us about efforts to stand up to the phoney populist. >> liz cheney will be remembered as one of the most historically significant

figures of this period of time. she's understood the importance of the january 6th lie, why it's important to stand up to it, why it's important as a republican to stand up to it even if it comes at the cost of losing her seat in congress. we don't know whether that will happen. i think what she's trying to do is build some possibility of a different republican party in the future. here is what it could look like. here is what kind of people can be part of it. it used to be normal for republicans or democrats indeed to go to the white house when somebody of the opposite party was the president or to attend neutral ceremonies like congressional medal of honor ceremony. she's reminding everybody of that normality. there used to be bipartisan things we could do together. >> used to be. as always, thank you so much. we'll be reading all your pieces. we appreciate it. still ahead, we are

awaiting june jobs report. economists say it will likely offer clues about a possible recession. we'll break down those numbers with one of the president's top economic advisers. plus new first hand accounts from heroes on the ground during monday's mass shooting at a july 4th parade in highland park. you are watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. are watchi we'll be right back.

it is again -- we are obviously united states, not just news but culturally. we focus on what is to the east of us in britain and europe, not quite as much with japan despite extraordinary power. talk for a minute just for

americans waking up who may not have as much of an understanding of what a massive figure he was in japanese politics, just the influence he's had on japan. not only himself but his father as well as his grandfather. >> right. we tend to forget about japan. japan is third largest economy in the world and extremely important country. of course our foreign policy, we talked for 20 years about a pivot toward the pacific in order to deal with china's rise to becoming a rival of the united states. arguably the biden administration is executing that pivot and has emphasized a group that japan is a member

of. shinzo abe is arguably the most important and certainly one of the most important political figures in japan in post world war ii era as longest serving prime minister japan ever had. and his policies were somewhat controversial in japan in that he agreed with the united states that japan should take a more -- i don't know if militaristic is the word -- but more in its defense policy and more prepared to face the rise of a rising china. he executed some of those policies. that again was controversial. we have no idea what the motive was for the shooting. but this does not happen in

japan, a country of 125 million people that has perhaps ten shootings, ten instances of gun violence in a year. this is incomprehensible, i believe, to most japanese as they are watching what's happening and i can't imagine this happening in their country, that there would be a shooting and a death like this. say nothing of it being somebody so important to japan for such a long time. >> for such a long time. we believe we are going to be talking to the united states ambassador to japan rahm emanuel in a few minutes. we have much more to cover. your father actually knew the prime minister. >> yes. shinzo abe has a couple firsts in japan's history. he was the youngest prime minister when he first became

prime minister at age 52. that didn't end well and didn't last long. but then he returned in 2012 and became longest running prime minister. his grandfather was prime minister of japan. many see his legacy, to your point, as strengthening relations with united states and thus strengthening japan's defense capability. so he is a major figure in japanese history and in world history. is there any reaction from the white house yet? >> we have a statement from the white house expressing shock and sadness to former prime minister abe's death. president biden has an event later today on abortion rights, expected to sign executive order and aides suggested he will also address abe's death then. that's later this morning. we should note abe as you said, longest serving prime minister

in japan's history, left in 2020 with health issues. he and biden did not overlap when president but he knew him well when he was vice president. they met a number of times in japan and united states. abe is thought of warmly here in the community and in the united states. he tried to establish a good relationship with former president trump as he did indeed try to align japan more closely with the united states. we should underscore he was assassinated while delivering a campaign speech in a town not from from osaka. the current prime minister of japan put out a statement mourning the death of his friend and saying that the elections for which abe was campaigning will continue. he feels the democratic process needs to go on and despite the assassination, they will go on as scheduled this sunday. let's bring in now our u.s.

financial editor and columnist to the financial times. ed, you obviously follow this closely. give us your reaction to the stunning matter of shinzo abe's death and also what his legacy is for japan and the world. >> it is obviously an utterly freakish event in japan. this doesn't happen. i believe the last assassination of a politician was 1960. this is not even thought of in japanese political culture. his legacy is huge. the great structural reform of the japanese economy, named after him. i think equally importantly was his amendment of japan's passing the constitution to make japan's so called self

defense forces less timid and japan's with the united states more practical. he was a founding member of the quad which some see as end oh pacifics, embryonic nato. he has been a hugely significant figure in japanese politics. his career was by no means over. he was killed while campaigning for elections for the upper chamber. at 67 he was not over the hill. >> it's interesting that over the past six months obviously europe has awakened to the growing threat from russia and are taking back more of their defense capabilities that they seeded after world war ii. it's interesting abe was ahead of his time in that respect,

wasn't he? he was tough on china. he was a close ally of taiwan. like you and others said, upset some people in china because he wanted to move away from a passivist constitution and have japan in a position to defend themselves and be a strong ally with the united states in counteracting china's growth. >> that's right. particularly his second stint coincided with a china that was no longer hiding its light as the phrase goes and keeping a low profile, a china that was more. abe in a way was japan's answer. japanese leaders tended to be very quiet, consensus oriented, very timid. abe wasn't like that. he was more like a sort of

presidential figure and not afraid to challenge long standing principles of japanese politics in order to adapt it to the much harsher world he believed japan was facing with an assertive china. that legacy will long out last him, a major shift in japan's posture if you like. will pleading guilty help free brittney griner from a russian jail? we'll have the latest on the basketball super star's fight for freedom, just ahead on "morning joe." fight fight for freedom, there's a monster problem and our hero needs solutions. so she starts a miro to brainstorm. “shoot it?” suggests the scientists. so they shoot it. "morning joe."

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there are 16 new recipients of the presidential medal of freedom this morning. they include trail blazing athletes, civil rights icons, ordinary americans who have shown extraordinary courage in difficult times. peter alexander has the details already thank you all very much. >> reporter: at the white house, celebrating incomparable line up of legends. >> this is america. >> reporter: most decorated u.s. gymnast of all times, simone biles adding to her medal count, art 25, the youngest ever recipient of the medal of freedom. >> it is the best award you can receive for your life. now it's scary.

like what do i do now. >> reporter: meghan rapino recognized for another goal. >> equal pay for women. >> reporter: labor movements and civil rights, honored gabby giffordss, finding her voice to stop gun violence. >> gabby is one of the most courageous people i have ever known. >> departed giants of technology and politics. steve jobs revolutionized how we communicate. john mccain, decorated vietnam veteran turned maverick senator and presidential nominee. >> i have never stopped admiring john. i i knew his honor, courage, commitment. >> extraordinary lives that help lift up america. coming up, all important jobs numbers for june.

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a new essay entitled the most pathetic men in america. it's adapted from his book thank you for your servitude. he looks at what he calls the slavishly devoted republicans trump brought to his side. he wrote it's been said before but not enough that without the

complacency of the republican party, donald trump was a geriatric fox watching golfer. i have interviewed scores trying to figure out why they did what they did, the kevin mccarthys, lindsey grahams, all the other busy parasitic suck ups who made trump era work for them, who humored him down to the last exhausted strains of american democracy. he writes i have known graham and mccarthy for years. they are a classical washington type. fun to be around, star struck, desperate to keep their jobs or get better ones to maximize their place in the all important mix. i have asked them how they can side up to trump like they have. the answer basically is they did it because it was the savviest course, because it was

best for them. nearly all elected republicans in washington needed trump's blessing and voters to remain there. people like mccarthy and graham benefited a great deal from making it work with trump or managing the relationship as they say. i can get trump on the phone faster than any staff person who worked for him could get him on the phone mccarthy bragged. there was a restless quality to the voices when they talked about thrill ride of being one of trump's guys. joe. >> it's fascinating. it is a great piece. what's fascinating is the relationship with both of the two republicans pro filed, kevin mccarthy, lindsey graham, has gotten them to be quite honest through the years about how transactional the relationship with trump has

been. ask lindsey graham, basically up for attacking donald trump harder than anybody else did in 2016, how can you be such a to him and lindsey said how can you do this? he said if you know anything about me, it would be odd for me not to do this. this is to stay relevant. i have known lindsey since '94. lindsey just wanted to be at the center of things. >> aren't there moments in his career when he kind of stood up for people? no? i know meadows absolutely goes where the wind goes. >> and so does lindsey. i guess it was '96, '97 and we had a coo attempt against newt gingrich and 12 of us, the red host, true believers as we were called, extremists as a lot of republicans called us would

have secret meetings. it would be in lindsey's office. i never understood why bois he wasn't a true believer. for us it was about the deficit, debt, small are government and lindsey didn't care. somehow the meetings were at lindsey's place. we'd have these secret meetings. we noticed that every time we showed up at the secret meetings we had to walk through members of press on both sides. we found out lindsey would have secret coo meetings against gingrich and lindsey would tell the press the time and place for the meetings. at one point we were like you have to stop telling the press where our secret coo meetings are. somebody said lindsey is a nice guy but i wouldn't want him guarding the pentagon. >> no. >> they went from that to being john mccain's best buddy, following john mccain around when he thought that served his

interests. then of course john mccain didn't think much of us going after gingrich because again we were see as being too intense on budget issues. then he went to mccain. then robinson just like that, when trump got elected, after trashing throughout 2016, he became trump's fan. again with lind sigh, it has nothing to do with issues. it's just as lindsey tells, he admits it. he says he only cares about being at the center of things, being relevant. >> it's all transactional. it's all situational. lindsey graham is a senator to be a senator. that's basically it. he and mccarthy and others rationale eyed this by saying well, i still have a seat at

the table. i am still able to influence events and policies. but to what end? what do they believe in if anything? do they still believe in american democracy or is that also an optional feature that you can decide not to include with your package? it is incredible. what this der election of duty on the part of the elected republicans has done, it has also sort of allowed the republican base, because they won't level with republican base, won't tell the truth, it has allowed republican base to also go off the reservation. you have this entire party now from base to the top that is

reeling out of control and yet still has a lot of power. it is an astounding but horrible situation for our political system to be in. coming up, we hear about religious right lately when talking about the supreme court. there is a vocal religious left too. it's speaking out loudly about abortion rights in america. we'll talk about that just ahead on "morning joe." about only at vanguard you're more than just an investor you're an owner. that means that your priorities are ours too. ahead on "morning joe."

52 past the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." cloudy morning in washington, d.c. poling shows more and more americans view the supreme court with skepticism. many stemming from a pervading sense that politics and religion is increasingly influencing the high court's decisions and american culture overall. our next guests are sounding that alarm.

joining us now, reverend jennifer butler, the founder and residents of faith in public life and also with us, serene jones, the president of union theological seminary and a family professor for religion and democracy. and it is good to have you both. i want to kick off the conversation with a portion of your recent op-ed entitled christian nationalism is dangerous to christians. you write in part this. we cannot allow our faith to continue to be hijacked by white supremacists, covered in religious language for the sake of our faith and our democracy, we must denounce christian nationalism and reclaim a faith that values and affirms the human dignity of all people. including our own. so, if you could maybe develop on that point. how is the faith, the christian faith being sort of hijacked? >> well, that is right.

our entire faith is about the care of vulnerable people and pushing back on those who would oppress others. and unfortunately what has happened in america is christianity has long been used to justify the oppression of others, it was used to adjustfy slavery and jim crow. now it is being used to justify blocking women from the reproductive abortion care that they need to raise hathy families an that is not my faith. the majority of religious people in this country support a woman's access to abortion care because we believe in her moral agency. we believe she has the spiritual capacity to make these complex and important decisions for her own family. and so as christians, particularly as a white christian in this country, where christianity has been used to justify terrible racial oppression, we need as christians to speak for loudly about what our faith calls us to

resist the farrows, the egypt an kings, the roman caesars of our day. so we're organizing now to push back on that and to really reclaim our faith for justice and for compassion. >> reverend jones, in your op-ed for the hill, you write as ministers and heads of a seminary that is training the next generation of progressive faith leaders, we are outraged by this blasphemous use of the bible as a tool of hatred and division and not as one of unity and lover and we know it is up to faith leaders from all major religious traditions both in the u.s. and abroad to fight against those twisting the word of god to justify bigotry, hatred and discrimination. right-wing lelgs leaders profess that the bible supports these acts of hatred and division but they ignore the lesson core to all fts major faiths. love of fellow human as you

would yourself. and if i could ask you, is abortion being brought into this? and is the bible being used incorrectly against it? >> absolutely. you know, there is two major points i like to make as a theological who talks often about this issue and the first is that abortion is not a biblical topic. there are one or two references to it that clearly prioritize the life and agency of the mother over a fetus. and that is it. to turn around and act as if the bible has a mandate that is anti-choice when the bible on every page is affirming the agency of people and the care of the vulnerable, the poor, the orphan, the woman at every turn. and the second is it is very interesting to look back at history and realize that 50

years ago, the southern baptist convention which is now 100% anti-choice, came out with multiple platforms in which they affirmed a woman's privacy. said that the state did not have a role in the decisions that women make with respect to pregnancy. so, the last 50 years has seen a very planned out, concerted often savage and cruel program to bring this topic to the fore in a sense make it up and deploy it as a tactic. >> so reverend jones, i want to get your related idea, your thoughts on the concept of religious freedom. we perceive it as the freedom to have whatever religion you want but it could also be freedom from religion and fro dom from religion extremism. is that part of your concern here? is that a value structure is being put upon on a small group

to the rest of the country. >> yes. absolutely. and that is often overlooked because the same group of evangelicals are shouting about religious freedom in other counties and in this context it is about a small minority imposing their view on vast numbers of people who don't share their views and have own positions of conscious or lacking of religious conviction their own sense of moral rekt tude, not by someone else's view. so it runs directly against religious freedom. >> and reverend butler, we'll get you to weigh in on the topic and the slippery slope that you perceive as to abortion, but what other rights coo be infringes upon or completely taken away by a supreme court that seems to be espousing a narrow view of religious belief. >> it is being used saz a tool

and weapon to discriminate against others but and that is tragic because it is in our constitution buts it not imposing your religious beliefs on someone else and the majority of people in this country support the fact that abortion care, including religious people and support lgbtq equality. so they've used religious freedom to try to pass religious freedom bills at the state level that are discriminatory bills. they are not trying to shore up religious freedom. they would discrimination against lgbtq people in housing and jobs and health care. and we've been working at the state level to elevate faith voices that say not in our name. don't be using religious freedom to discriminate against others. >> exactly. >> serene, on the topic of abortion that we've been talking about over the past several

weeks, how i grew up as a southern baptist, and actually it seems strange to say now but baptists, until 1979 -- >> yes. >> -- let's be clear, almost 2000 years after jesus's birth found religion on abortion and became pro-life. as i said, mainstream evangelical churches were pro-choice like after the beatles broke up. and i say even after the beatles broke up. this just happened. and not only did it just happen, and the grand sweep of the history of christianity, it happened in somehow because of what paul wyrick and jerry fallwell, and what conservative ministers were trying to do