♪♪ ♪♪ hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in the east. the january 6th select committee today hearing from one of the shadow witnesses of every single public hearing the committee has held so far. the man whose words and deeds have already played i significant role in every aspect of the plot by donald trump to

overturn the election results. that man is donald trump's top white house lawyer pat cipollone. he sat down for a transcribed interview under oath with investigators this morning. as far as we can tell, that interview or that meeting is ongoing at this hour. punch bowl news reports this about the parameters of today's testimony from cipollone, quote, sources tell us that the select committee does not have an agreement about what investigators can or cannot ask him. prior to hutchinson's testimony the panel had discussed an arrangement with cipollone for an on the record interview, but cipollone backed away from it, sources tell us. cipollone is expected to claim executive privilege over conversations he had with trump, but there is plenty that the committee is interested in outside of that category. for example, we expect cipollone will be asked about conversations with former white house chief of staff mark meadows. the possibility that cipollone could provide gamechanging information to the committee along with new witnesses coming

forward is prompting the panel to re-think its schedule of public hearings. that schedule was supposed to wrap up this month in july. "the washington post" reports the hearings can continue into august and beyond as investigators accumulate more evidence and witness testimony. the committee's next hearing on the books is scheduled for tuesday and it is reportedly focused on those violent extremist groups. groups like the proud boys and the oath keepers who acted on donald trump's call to arms. remember his december 19th tweet? he wrote this, quote, be there. it will be wild. the groups also served as the tip of the spear in breaching the u.s. capitol on january 6th. until now the committee has focused its public hearings on high-level plotting by trump to seize his second term by deploying an army of loyalist

lawyers. on tuesday instead they will plunge into the fever swamp where groups like the proud boys flourished and strategized openly ahead of january 6th. the january 6th committee member jamie raskin says this about this upcoming hearing, quote, our investigation shows that there was a tremendous convergence of interest between the domestic violence extremist groups and the broader maga movement. this will be the moment where one will see the convergence of experts with the insurrectionary mob violence. we see how the two streams of activity become one. testifying before the committee today before another significant public hearing by the panel is where we start the hour. luke broadwater is back. also joining us, former rnc chairman and political analyst michael steele is here. amy bennett is here and justice

department reporter and msnbc contributor and former campaign manager for president obama. luke i'll start with you. if you weren't standing here i would imagine you would be with your ear pressed against the room, after much ado, private and public pressure campaign with soliciting his testimony which as we understand, he's providing today. >> yeah. they're still in there. they just took a break about half an hour ago and went back in. the -- when i've heard so far is that pat cipollone is being cooperative, but is not answering questions as expected about his direct conversations with donald trump. we knew that he was likely going to invoke attorney-client privilege over some materials, but the committee asked about at least four really key categories. one is anything he saw or heard

on january 6th itself, excluding materials that were privileged and that could be any of those conversations with cassidy hutchinson and mark meadows and other people in the white house as the mob is rampaging the capitol. he is also free to talk about the issue with jeffrey clark in sending this false letter to the states from the justice department. he's free to talk about conversations with members of congress and also the role john eastman played with plans to overturn the election. there's a lot of ground to till for the select committee. he's been there since a little after 9:00 a.m., so i think they're covering a lot of ground as it's still going on. >> i want to -- i don't have all those categories, but i have a few of them, and i want to play for you, katie benner, some of the testimony where pat cipollone has been put in the room by a lot of other

high-level people and this is richard donohue. >> all anyone will think is that you went through two attorneys general in two weeks until you found the environmental guy to sign this thing. so the story is not going to be that the department of justice has found massive corruption that would have changed the results of the election. it is going to be the disaster of jeff clark, and i think at that point pat cipollone said yeah, this is a murder/suicide pact, this letter. >> pat cipollone weighed in at one point, and i remember saying that letter that this guy wants to send, that letter is a murder/suicide pact. it will damage everyone who touches it and we should have nothing to do with that letter. i don't ever want to see that letter again and so we went along those lines. >> katie, that first witness was stephen engel who was the head of the office of legal counsel. he was in that intervention, if you will, on the day that jeffrey clark was at least considered the acting attorney

general for long enough for someone to change his title to acting attorney general on the white house call log. he has the most descriptive term for what trump tried to do that day, a murder/suicide pact. talk about what he new with donohue and rosen and his deputy white house counsels, mr. philbin and mr. herschmann. >> so what justice department officials have testified is they thought the letter to georgia and the plan that jeffrey clark had was not only wrong because it was factually wrong, but they would undo the election and they would basically cause chaos within the justice department and within america at large, but what cipollone is saying which i think is interesting and the committee will really want to press on is the idea of whether or not it was legal and it was not just a murder/suicide pact and it was something he did not put in front of him and at the white house counsel, it's not because it seems like a bad

idea, or something that's morally unkooth, but for some that they get in legal trouble and in the cassidy hutchins' testimony where cassidy, if you allow the following things to happen, we will be hit by criminal charges for so many things and we could be in trouble here. so they're going to want to know why with conversation with the president with chief of staff, mark meadows and keep in mind that the executive privilege covers a lot of conversations, it doesn't cover conversations that are crimes. >> right. right. the whole sort of unveiling, michael steel of what was going on in the west wing while donald trump was president is worse than any of us thought it was and the degree to which they invoked criminality is really one of the more shocking and underreported aspects of the public hearings. here's mr. cipollone's deputy,

mr. herschmann speaking in pretty colorful terms about what he saw as a potential for rampant criminality. >> i thought the dominion stuff was -- i never saw any evidence what so were to sustain those allegations. i said to him are you out of your f-ing mind? i said -- i said i only want to hear two words coming out of your mouth from now on, orderly transition. i don't want to hear any other f-ing words coming out of your mouth no matter what other than orderly transition, repeat those words to me. >> what did he say? >> eventually he said orderly transition and than i said good, john. now i'll give you the best free advice you've received in your life. get a good criminal defense

attorney. you're going to need it. jeff rosen was proposed by jeff clark and i thought the proposal was asinine and when he finished discussing what he planned on doing i said [ bleep ] sorry, f-ing a-hole, you just admitted your first act as attorney general would be committing a felony. you are clearly the right candidate for this job. >> michael steele, i play that again for two reasons. one, many "f" bombs were dropped in the trump west wing and two, they talked about criminal exposure to such a degree that they talked about lawyering up with criminal defense lawyers. >> keep in mind, it is the lawyers advising the players in trump's little, you know on. >> coup. >> yeah, in his coup that you need to be aware of what you are

stepping into, you know, but the big takeaway is despite that they persisted. despite that, they still persist. donald trump is out here having rallies right now persisting in that -- that coup and so this is a very interesting moment for the january 6th committee to have cipollone in the room, to dance, yes, around the pinhead and the attorney-client privilege such that it can apply and you can get him to fill in some very important lanes of the narrative, and i think he realizes that because those lanes have largely started to be filled in by folks like cassidy, hutchinson and others who have made -- who as you started, put on a very stark view of this, right?

and kind of laid it bare. so you either step into the room and put your color on it and say this is how we advise and mr. herschmann was saying we were telling people you need to get a good lawyer because if you do this, it's going to be a problem or have that narrative overwhelm in such a way that you are implicated criminally and culpable criminally in some kind of fashion. cipollone is saying let me do a little bit more of a heisman and the cya and that way i can go ahead and fill in the blanks that some of the committee members may have as opposed to having them filled in by others. >> let me show you, david, some of what michael steele is talking about. this is cassidy hutchinson's testimony where she filled in a lot of the blanks about who had criminal exposure on the brain when they adhave kated for trump to release the tape while the

violence was ongoing. >> who convinced him to do it? >> i don't know who convinced him or if it was a group of people that convinced him. >> who was in the group? >> mark, ivanka, herschmann, pat cipollone and pat philbin. those are the people that were instructing him. >> white house counsel's office coming into the office that morning that they didn't think it was a good idea to include that in the speech. >> that being pat cipollone? >> correct. and eric herschmann. >> david, there is so much testimony that we've already seen and we don't know what we don't know. we've only seen the excerpts of the depositions that they've shown us, but just about everyone has something to say

about the pardon frenzy. even jared kushner talks about the pardon palooza he was overseeing and jared kushner testifies to cipollone's discomfort in the final days with everything that was going on. what do you make of cipollone's decision and this is a bit of a cave on cipollone's part and the early negotiations as far as i understood it were that cipollone would testify narrowly about the episodes. it is my understanding from punch bowl and i invite katie or luke to jump in if i have this wrong, but he may or may not answer all of the questions and it is my understanding that he didn't walk through the door with anything off the table in terms of what they would ask. >> i think that's because there's been so much testimony that's illuminated this to a degree. we know what happened, but as we learn about why it happened and how it happened, even in the trump white house it's worse than we could have imagined in a work of fiction. >> it strikes me as having worked in the white house it

just seems like -- and this is really the entire four years, but this episode, people basically ignored lawyers and ignored white house counsel, number one. number two, why did they do it? i'm sure most thought they would get pardoned and the morning of january 20th they were aren't pardoned and i'm sure some of them thought they might be successful because the more we learn about this, we know that this was not a ram shackle effort. this was highly coordinated and highly resourced and led by the most powerful person on the planet. my guess is, and i'm glad to see the committee. this can't go on forever, and the american people have shown great interest in what happened. i think you are try starting to hear donald trump, and thooed hearings are making him look

like a standard bearer. i think there was a view for a while, i think, like what's the committee doing and what value is this going to provide? is this going to serve as a deterrent and what more will we learn and we've had revelation after revelation and he could not narrow the terms to the degree that he thought he once could. >> such a good point, luke. we don't talk about this enough, but there was a sense that the committee would be close to finishing and that's when they'd go public and that isn't the case at all. they are very much still in an investigative phase with their investigators still combing through interviews and conducting new depositions. talk about the decision to possibly extend the public phase of the hearings? >> yeah. so one of the things we thought would happen early on was that the committee would have two investigative phases that they would present the original findings and then build on that, and they got ready for the

report in september, but what happened was people kept coming forward as it happened and the committee interviewed cassidy hutchinson a fourth time. they interviewed the cfo of the trump campaign. they've interviewed additional witnesses who have come in including pat cipollone today. so they're finding new things as they go. we've all heard there will be a second hearing thursday evening and i am told that's in mruks because depending on what pat cipollone tells them today and i understand they might be close to wrapping up, those videos could be played at one of the hearings next week or they could blow up the whole schedule later in a different hearing or they could call a new hearing and so everything is still very much in flux and it's because the investigation is gathering more information than what was originally anticipated, and so i

think this is potentially a good problem for the committee that they have almost too much information, too many findings and so they're sort of having to scramble to keep up with all of the information they're getting. >> so i hear that in two ways. one, as soon so interested in the fact finding mission and that sounds amazing. a a as a working mom i wanted to text my babysitter. what do you want to know? what do you think the burning questions are for pat cipollone and the committee? >> i think one of the big questions for pat cipollone say to you as to what was right or wrong. as white house counsel there's a lot he cannot discuss in terms of the conversations with the president, but any behavior that he believed was potential criminal behavior, that is really not covered by those privileges and it's been spoken

about by other witnesses. so i think it is very difficult for him to get around that to some degree and the other thing that i'm curious about is anything he has to say about the people who are already of interest, when it's jeffrey clark or john eastman because these are all in the department's crouse chairs, when it's aen friendly interview or the box, and this committee has interviewed and it will be hard to say no to those interviews and to try to claim some kind of privilege because they've spoken about certain incidents that happened in the waning days of the trump investigation in terms of investigators. >> no one is going anywhere. we'll look more closely at what we believe to be in focus of the public hearing and how the committee will seek to try the trump white house to those extremist groups who showed up and led the violence at the u.s. capitol on january 6th.

select committee members lofgren will be our guest in today's closed-door white house counsel bob cipollone. >> plus news this morning of the tragic assassination of the previous vice president of japan and a shock to see him in japan and we'll bring you the global reaction to his death and what it says about violence around. and the supreme court's extreme decision to overturn roe versus wade. president biden joe biden signed an executive order to safeguard some reproductive rights. we'll look at what that means when "deadline: white house" returns after a quick break. don't go anywhere. use" use" returns after -seriously? -denied. can we go back to meeting at the rec center? the commute here is brutal.

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a little more than an hour after miss powell, mr. giuliani, general flinn and the others finally left the white house, president trump sense the tweet on the screen now telling people to come to washington on january 6th. be there, he instructed them. we'll be wild. as you see, this was a pivotal moment, this tweet initiated a chain of events. the tweet led to the planning for what occurred on january 6th including by the proud boys who ultimately led the invasion of the capitol and the violence on that day. >> that was january 6th select committee vice chair liz cheney tying that now infamous december 19th tweet by donald trump to the perpetrators of the most

violent, and michael steele, i want to quickly ask luke. do we know if this interview is ongoing? we have the cameras in the hallway and we weren't sure if it was cipollone coming or going. >> i heard it was ending momentarily just a few minutes ago. i don't know 100%. sorry. >> we'll keep an eye out. i didn't mean to put you on the spot. michael steele, this relationship between donald trump and the extreme groups is almost disorienting, i disavow, stand back and stand by, and then come to washington. be there, will be wild. whatever excuse making goes on in any sort of criminal defense contact should that come to pass, it is undeniable that there was an answer between donald trump and the domestic violent extremist groups.

>> not to correct you, i wouldn't say it's disorienting, i would say it's orienting how donald trump saw these groups. they saw him -- he saw them as an extension of his efforts to retain power by any means necessary and they saw him as an extension of their efforts to gain legitimacy, to gain control and power withd in political institutions and influence and it was a symbiosis that worked between them. a lot of the hand wringing and hand-holding around the roles that certain groups played and whether they were this or that or how close they were, it didn't matter. i mean, it was very, very clear from the debate on when donald trump was headed, what he thought he needed as instruments to help him achieve those goals

and those groups where there were proud boys, three percenters, they were readily available and he was not interested in having them to stand down. he wanted them to stand by, and he made it clear that there was more to come, and they came. they stormed the capitol. they were part of that infrastructure on that day, and the january 6th committee is putting that out in stark relief for the country to see which is why i believe in some sense that the country's -- the number of viewers of this has not fallen off, but stayed steady and increases because people are curious and interested in how this turns out. >> well, michael steele, to your point, this relationship between trump and the extremist groups, the decision to have this hearing last was made at the beginning. this was always going to be one of the last public offerings, if you will, and congressman

raskin, i think, with stephanie murphy has been working on this one since before the public hearings began. if you go back to the kinds of things that stewart rhodes' wife said when he was charged, i mean, she talked a whole lot about what rhodes thought trump's role was vis-a-vis her husband. he was waiting for him to invoke the insurrection act. do you think they're going to show evidence or the smoking gun evidence of connectivity between the insurrectionists and donald trump? >> you know, that's a very good question, and i think that's a tempting thought particularly in light of the proud boys' leadership and the gentleman currently incarcerated say, i'll come talk and i want live coverage and i want these things. >> right. >> we'll see. we'll see exactly how the hammer is being wielded between the committee and the doj with respect to some of these players to get them to -- to make that

connectivity. i believe it's there just based on my own observance and reading of -- of what's been going on. it's there and i think doj has become much more comfortable that it's there and it could lead to criminal relief with respect to donald trump and the committee knows it's there and quite honestly, i'd say don't think about shutting down until you're done. you've got until the end of the year. you've got until the new congress comes in. let the evidence take you where you need to go. do not be blocked by the impending elections and do not be forestalled between the elections and the new congress. do the work on behalf of the american people. get those people to sign on the dotted line, their narratives that fills in those very critical pieces that tie this

bow right around donald trump. >> yeah. david, to michael steele's points, i remember democrats, speaker pelosi and others being anxious about the politics of impeachment and the politics of the 1/6 committee seem very different for democrats. it seems to be moving independents more than anybody. to michael thiel steel's point it's being viewed among fox audiences and it's being aired, at least the daytime hearings are being aired and one of the anchors has found one of the witnesses devastating in the words of brett baer. what if the hearings continues into the fall? >> look, the numbers should be 100%, and it's not. maybe 70% of the americans want us to remain a democracy that the people who win the most votes should win the election. that's a pretty big universe, and i think that a lot of those people had issues with january

6th and the big lie and trump's attempt to stay in power and this has probably solidified that. it has hurt him in terms of his prospects for running and winning. i think there are a lot of republicans who on the record should say he should be on mount rushmore, and he probably shouldn't run because he'll be treated unfairly because of january 6th and what they think is he's been damaged. first of all, the politics should be secondary because the most important thing is we make it harder to do this again and every indication is there are still a lot of republicans who are fine doing it again and so the most important thing is to get that, and the politics certainly are not harmful. i'm not sure they'll have much impact in 2022, but i think they could have an impact in 2024 and that couldn't be more important. because if we survive the '24 election we'll probably be okay, but if they don't, we won't. going back to qanon and charlottesville, trump is always

painful to study in. he was never willing to cross anybody who was a supporter as long as they remained the supporter and as long as they remained kissing his ring and that's what drove this, and i don't even think it was him on the debate stage and other times saying this will hurt me in my, forts to win wisconsin. like, he's not that surgical. this is just a really instinctual thing and people who are for me are fine and i'll find a way to embrace them. we don't know, maybe when he said stand by he really had something in mind here. because it was prior to the debate, if i lose the election can't be legitimate. >> right. >> this was going on for months and months and months. yeah, i have been struck by the interest level in this. i think it's clear that people are willing to take on more information. in my view it's less about '22 than '24, but that's significant. >> katie benner, eric holder

said on this program that perhaps one of the services that the committee provides either wittingly or unwittingly, would be to soften public opinion and educate the public about donald trump's criminal conduct and make it easier should merrick garland go in that direction. do you pick up anything in the water or the tea leaves about the angst there? >> i think the committee has certainly done the justice department a great service if nothing else in putting evidence out to the public that gives the justice department a lot to think about. certainly, as i said before, it's much harder for people to not speak to the justice department now if they've spoken to the committee and it's very likely that the justice department would participate in the public hearings and the

closed door opinion and this speaks to the uniqueness and even if anybody, like a justice department official. this is so, so sensitive because you're using government power to go after people who are representatives and perhaps even a standardbearer of a political party of the united states. we have free and fair elections and we've never had to do that and that is the mark of a banana republic. ? yeah. when eric holder is saying that it speaks to the uniqueness of this kind of investigation especially if it does get closer and closer to people who are in the white house or who were firmly in the white house or who want to be in the white house again and that is why public opinion needs to be in a place where people think this investigation is fair, that the evidence is compelling and that it's reasonable to ask questions

about whether or not criminality occurred. >> it's an extraordinary moment. we are so grateful to have you, thank you so much for starting us off today. michael steele sticks around for the hour. when we come back, the long effort serving prime minister in japan's history was murdered overnight. president joe biden marking his passing this afternoon signing a condolence book at the japanese embassy. we'll talk about the historic nature of his assassination in one of the countries with the strictest gun laws. we'll have that next. e of the c e of the c strictes back to the miro board. dave says “feed it?” and dave feeds it. just then our hero has a breakthrough. "shoot it, camera, shoot a movie!" we'll have that next on miro.

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as the saturday sun is just now rising over japan, shock does not begin to describe what that nation -- the international community, even, is feeling. by now i'm sure you have heard the longest serving prime minister in japan's history shinzo abe was assassinated early friday. fair warning, we're about to show you video of the moments leading up to the shooting. here it is. two gunshots at a morning campaign event in the city of nara near kyoto. abe's confessed killer was arrested at the scene. a 41-year-old man, unemployed, with an apparent grudge to a group that he believed to be connected to the former prime minister in a nation known the world over for their strict gun control laws, the murder weapon appeared to be home made. a few hours ago president joe biden visited the japanese embassy to add his signature and a small note in a book of

condolences. quote, a man of peace, he will be missed. joining us on conversation is victor cha. he served as director of asian affairs during the george w. bush administration, and ben rhodes, national security adviser to president obama and michael steele is still with us. victor, just take me through your reaction at the moment and your thoughts now that the news has been processed by you yet. >> sure, nicole, yes. a very sad, sad day for japan. a very sad day for the world. that picture that we saw of president biden signing the condolences book in the japanese ambassador's residence speaks to how much the united states values japan as an ally. abe was about the best ally the united states could have ever had. he anticipated threats to the international order before most other leaders did and some of the things that the biden administration stood up like the

quad and the free and open indo-pacific, these are all things that abe talked about when he was prime minister, when ben was dealing with him. i dealt with him very early on when he was first a chief cabinet secretary and then eventually the prime minister his first time around, and i was just always struck by how deeply knowledgeable he was on policy issues and there are politicians that are not that deep, but he was extremely deep on almost any issue and just, a real friend of the alliance. the u.s.-japan alliance during his time as prime minister. it's a very sad and shocking time, not just for the united states and japan, for the world. >> ben, same question to you. i saw this news in the middle of the night and i kind of put my phone down thinking i must not have read that accurately and i woke up a few hours later and it was. it was a horror and a shock. i mean, political assassinations

are one of the most destabilizing things to read about anywhere, but as victor is saying, particularly of such a close friend and ally of this country. >> yeah. i mean, there are different layers to the shock. the first is just an act of gun violence like this in japan. it's absolutely extraordinary and it just doesn't happen. people are not killed with guns in japan at all. the numbers are miniscule, so to see this person killed in this way before the world was absolutely stunning. it's impossible to overstate how important a figure prime minister abe was in japanese politics. in the obama years in the first administration it was a very unstable time and there were four japanese prime ministers that president obama dealt with before abe took office in 2012 and then became the longest serving japanese prime minister and the anchor of all japanese politics and policy debate. he had a strong economic vision. he had a very strong vision of

japan pursuing a more normal foreign policy and defense policy. he wanted a more muscular approach and he saw the u.s. alliance with japan central a more muscular role in asia and he was concerned about the rise of china and he wanted to draw closer not just with the united states and to all other allies in the region like australia, forging a relationship with india and he was a singular politician and in 2016, president obama and prime minister abe, with president obama traveling to hiroshima, to mark the history and the absolutely barbaric and tragic beginnings of what became this incredible alliance. he's a person that had a certain vision of political leadership that went above the issue of the day and it's not just a loss to

japan. he's an irreplaceable figure and for him to go in this fashion at a time of global uncertainty is a gut punch. >> president obama references what he was talking about. let me read that to you. i am shocked and saddened by the a sass nation of my friend and longtime partner shinzo abe in japan. former prime minister abe was ded voted to both the country he served and the extraordinary alliance between the united states and japan. i will always remember the work we did to strengthen our alliance, the moving experience of traveling to hiroshima and pearl harbor together and the grace he and i, michelle and i send our deepest condolences to the people of japan who are very much in pain and his wife akie abe. it seems like those are the leaders who are the steadiest at

this moment of a lot of thrashing about internationally and not just our country. >> to go back about the visits to hiroshima and pearl harbor. he came from political blue blood and they were involved in imperial japan during the war, and as a leader during his second time as prime minister he tried to address the history issues, like he said going to pearl harbor and he went to the australian government and talked about the past history of the pacific war and he reached an agreement on south korea on comfort women, sex slaves that were forcibly taken from korea other countries to japan during the war. he tried to address those history issues. the other thing is he was really a story of political renewal.

the first time around he was prime minister from 2005 to 2006, barely a year with lots of domestic crises and he actually resigned. he quit his job because of stress and health issues and many people, was there not a single person who didn't think he was done. that he was politically done at that point and for him to come back a few years later and be the longest serving prime minister and most importantly, to follow this agenda that is very important to the united states in terms of protection of democracy and the liberal national order and we pulled out of the tpp trade agreement and he and the australians picked up the ball and they took that to the finish line and completed that trade agreement without the united states. so he was a major figure not just in japan, but international

politics and not just in east asia. >> victor and michael steele are staying with us. the assassination of prime minister abe has ignited a conversation about the stark differences between gun laws in various countries and violent crime throughout the world. we'll share that with you on the other side. don't go anywhere. l share that e other side don't go anywhere. while wayfair is installing your new refrigerator and hauling away your old one. you're binging the latest true crime drama. while the new double oven you finan is taking care of dinner and desert. you're remembering how to tie a windsor.

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and kept it and i think that's why everybody -- i mean, it's just tragic what happened here. >> that was the united states ambassador to japan, rahm emanuel, shortly after former prime minister shinzo abe was killed. we're back with victor cha, michael steele. one of the most notable things about this horrific political assassination is what ben pointed out, that gun violence in japan is so extremely rare. i'll put up some numbers for our viewers who may not know. in 2021, in japan, there were ten shootings and one death. in america, there were 692 shootings and 20,944 deaths. >> yeah. stark, stark numbers. but very different cultures around guns, and the ideology and philosophy around guns.

ours is baked into a constitution. japanese do not have that as part of their governing or philosophical orientation, so you know, i think people need to be very careful sort of comparing the u.s. to japan when it comes to something like this in a stark, you know, topline sense. i think, though, what it does speak to, beneath that, is the culture in the sense of the times that we're in, that political disputes are acted out and result in violence, that political disagreements, this individual claimed to have a problem with a group that the prime minister was associated with, not even, it sounds like, not even directly with him, but with the fact that he may have been associated with some group. that speaks to a broader problem

that we've seen, not just here in u.s. but across europe and asia, that governments are going to have to come to terms with, what's feeding this particular underbelly that would lead to this kind of violence. because i was reading a few other things today, nicole, as i'm sure you have too, there are concerns out there that there's more political violence to come, for example. our secret service has been very concerned about this for some time, so i think that, you know, we definitely are shaken and taken aback by the starkness of this event, given the nature of japan specifically with respect to gun violence, but in one sense, we also need to appreciate that this could be the tip of a spear that could really hurt us big-time in the long-term. >> yeah, i mean, ben, michael steele is appropriately pointing the parallel to the specter of political violence, which, if

you go back to what we talk about many days on this show, "hang mike pence" being the mission statement of the trump/pence voters on january 6th, is there, you know, in the global security community, rising concern about the threats or the talk or chatter about political violence? >> oh, you bet there is, nicole. i mean, this is -- i mean, i have to say, to be honest, like, i've been surprised that there hasn't been more political violence in the last few years. >> wow. >> there's been this normalization of rhetoric. violent in nature. at leaders. and social media kind of turbo charges that and you have people living in these information ecosystems that dehumanize opponents. my point is that kind of --

>> we're going to try to improve ben rhodes' connection here, and you're coming in and out at us. i'm going to give victor the last word and we're going to try to fix your connection to us. victor, what should we sort of understand about the churn that michael and ben are talking about inside japanese politics? is there sort of political discontent in the same kind of heated debates around policy and politics there that we have here? >> so, you know, there's clearly political polarization not just in the united states but in many democracies around the world today. in this particular case, abe had been supported by some sort of very far right wing groups, although he himself didn't really push policies that were strongly in that direction. he basically moved to left of center national security debate to the moderates or to the right of center.

and this was one lone individual. so i wouldn't paint it that way in japan, but what is amazing about this japan case is, you know, this is a former prime minister who is just going out on the street and campaigning for these upper house elections that they have coming up in a couple of days, and former prime ministers don't walk around with a lot of security in japan. i've met them in coffee shops and hotels where they show up by themselves, and that just reflected broadly, as ben said, the public safety that there was in japan. i mean, police officers in japan don't walk around with firearms. they're stored in the police box, but they're not -- they don't carry them around. so, it's, again, it's just a really tragic thing, for japan, the united states, and the world. >> victor cha, michael steele, thank you so much for being part of our coverage today. ben rhodes sticks around until the next hour. we're keeping a close eye on the room where trump white house counsel pat cipollone has been

testifying all day long, we believe, before the january 6th select committee. it's been seven hours and counting. you can see him here heading into a sidebar meeting that he had with his attorneys earlier. congresswoman zoe lofgren will join us in the next hour, but only if she's done. ll ll join us in the nex and find the answer that was right under their nose. or... his nose. only if she's done

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overturning the last election and massively interfering with the upcoming one would cause serious and lasting damage to the people of the united states and to our great country. the senate cannot allow this to

happen. it is time for this to end here and now. >> you don't say. hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in the east. those words, spoken a few years ago now by the man of the hour, the man who, at this very moment, is still speaking with the january 6th select committee in a videotaped, transcribed interview under oath, an interview that is now seven hours long and counting, that man, of course, is the former white house counsel to donald trump. his name is pat cipollone. we know from other testimonies by january 6th investigation witnesses, he saw a whole lot of what went down, and he had a whole lot of strong feelings and feelings of deep alarm and concern about what he witnessed. cipollone's appearance today was the result of a subpoena the committee issued to him last wednesday, and the clip we played, he was making the closing argument in donald trump's first impeachment trial, two impeachments ago, if you will. appealing to the u.s. senate not to remove trump from office

because of this reason. "overturning the last election and massively interfering with the upcoming one would cause serious and lasting damage." how ironic. take a listen to a little more of what cipollone had to say in january of 2020 as he defended the now twice impeached ex-president. >> what they are asking you to do is to throw out a successful president on the eve of an election with no basis and in violation of the constitution. it would dangerously change our country and weaken -- weaken forever all of our democratic institutions. you all know that's not in the interest of the american people. why not trust the american people with this decision? why tear up their ballots? why tear up every ballot across this country? you can't do that. you know you can't do that.

so, i ask you to defend our constitution, to defend fundamental fairness, to defend basic due process rights, but most importantly, most importantly, to respect and defend the sacred right of every american to vote and to choose their president. >> now, we don't know if the committee played those comments for him. we would guess they did not, or if they plan to play them in the upcoming public hearing, but it's stunning, stunning, to hear donald trump's own lawyer defending the sanctity of elections. we know that the man he's defending there, donald trump, would go on to incite a deadly insurrection and attempt to overturn something he there claims he thinks is sacred. people's votes. in what would be the most secure election in america's history ever, according to fellow republican chris krebs. source tells nbc news that cipollone is being cooperative with the committee, but we don't know what that means exactly.

does it mean answering, or does it mean being forthcoming and helpful? what we do know is that cipollone had to decide whether to defend his former boss or defend democracy. the same democracy and its rituals that he so forcefully championed in that first impeachment trial that is, as with all things trump, on tape. aaron blake of the "washington post" points this out, "it would be one thing if pat cipollone was a true believer who might believe the former president did have the election stolen from him via a different method, as trump has falsely claimed, but the evidence is that cipollone did not subscribe to trump's bogus claims." as we saw when we heard this testimony from cassidy hutchinson. >> i saw mr. cipollone right before i walked out on to west exec that morning, and mr. cipollone said something to the effect of, please make sure we don't go up to the capitol,

cassidy. keep in touch with me. we're going to get charged with every crime imaginable if we make that movement happen. >> aaron blake goes on to compare cipollone's testimony to that of former attorney general bill barr, writing this, "barr has already proved a significant witness because of his own misgivings and willingness to testify about them. but unlike barr, who resigned in late december 2020, cipollone was still around for many of the key late events, and his willingness to shed light upon them could turn the guy whose big entry into the public's consciousness was to defend trump to the hilt, into a very significant witness against trump." joining our conversation, former u.s. attorney barbara mcquade, who's now a university of michigan law professor, ben rhodes is back, former deputy national security advisor to president obama, and jackie alemany is here, "washington post" congressional investigations reporter. all three, msnbc contributors. jackie, what do we know of that ongoing testimony today with pat cipollone?

>> we don't know all that much, nicole, but my reporting, it tracks similarly with what you guys reported earlier today, which is that cipollone is cooperating and committee members and sources would not describe him as a hostile witness, but they also wouldn't describe him as a friendly witness. that being said, if you look at the amount of hours he has spent in that private deposition room in the o'neill building alone today, that says something about his cooperation and how much -- how many questions that the committee has had for pat cipollone. there are, i think, three most important elements that the committee needs to get from cipollone today that essentially provide a core corroboration of hutchinson's testimony. the primary piece of information being that trump would not act during that sort of infamous 187 minutes and that it was, indeed, a dereliction of duty on his

part and cipollone was one of the people in the room on january 6th that was trying to get him to act. the second thing that's really important for the committee to get him to comment on and potentially corroborate is that -- the issue of criminal prosecution and him saying to cassidy hutchinson, which she has already testified, that if former president trump went to the capitol with protesters -- sorry, pro-trump rioters, the insurrectionists who ultimately were at the stop the steal rally on the ellipse and later went and sieged and -- capitol security, that trump and the white house would be subject to, quote, every crime imaginable. and then i think the third part of it is just -- gets to that snippet that you just played us, which is that the chief lawyer in the white house was aware of the risk of crimes more generally speaking and that he can speak to that in the lead-up to january 6th and on january

6th. and i think, lastly, it's really important to remember that it's not just cassidy hutchinson that has mentioned pat cipollone as a fly on the wall in these conversations. it's people like rich donoghue, jared kushner, as we discussed yesterday, people who said he was there for important moments. jared kushner called him a wimp for threatening to resign and threatening that the white house counsel's office would resign if trump did certain things, and rich donoghue also described him as, really, one of the only firewalls actually in the west wing to the former president's actions. >> you know, barbara mcquade, before him, don mcgahn was a witness to donald trump's actions and was so concerned about what he saw that he had a note taker. he had a chief of staff. and ultimately, robert mueller got ahold of don mcgahn to the tune of, i think, 20 to 30 hours of testimony. mcgahn is the key narrator of volume two of the mueller report

as well as all the notes taken by his chief of staff about all the interactions with trump, and at the time, it was understood to be concerns about not being part of an obstruction of justice effort. what sort of concerns would people in the white house -- or what concerns should they have about being party to or in possession of knowledge of foreknowledge of the violence? cassidy hutchinson's testimony pushes the timeline way back on how bad mark meadows knew that january 6th was going to be. it's the night of the 2nd that he leans against his office door and says, hey, kasz, it's going to be bad, real bad. rudy says to cassidy hutchinson again on the 2nd, which is when trump is on the phone with raffensperger, i mean, we know so much more about the timeline and the premeditation of violence and threats to pence, do people in the white house have to worry about getting tied to that? >> absolutely. i think that pat cipollone is in an awkward spot here because he was the white house counsel, and

so he owes a duty of loyalty to his client, but of course, his client is not donald trump, the man. his client is the presidency, the office of the united states, and to the extent those two interests are diverging, his loyalty must be to the office. and so it sounds like perhaps pat cipollone was providing legal advice to donald trump not to do these things, not to go up to the capitol, not to participate in this murder-suicide pact, as he described the firing of jeffrey rosen and the replacement with jeffrey clark so that they could send letters to georgia falsely stating that there were irregularities in the election and suggesting that they convene their state legislatures for the purposes of selecting alternate slates of electors. it sounds like he saw his role as providing legal advice and stopping donald trump, the man, from violating the law and his duties as donald trump, the president. but i think that's where there may be room for him to be talking today about some of these things, and the one thing

i'm particularly interested in, one of the areas they have negotiated for conversation today that pat cipollone has agreed to talk about is president trump's meetings with congress. those would be outside of any privilege, either executive or attorney-client, if members of congress were present, and it does help maybe shed lighted on that comment you just mentioned about rudy giuliani, about, how great it's going to be when trump goes to the capitol and stand with members of congress and look so strong. what was the plan there? was there a plan for him to triumphantly walk into the capitol on january 6th after the proud boys and the oath keepers cleared the way? there could be some real blockbusters coming out of this testimony. >> yeah, and ben, to barbara's point, that's what ties into the violence. the violence was not a shock or an alarm for donald trump. he said, they don't -- they're not going to hurt me. i mean, he knew they were there. he knew they were armed, and he knew who they would and would not hurt. i think the piece of cassidy hutchinson's testimony, though, that has so far been the most revealing in terms of whether or not there's a criminal

investigation or prosecution, is that conversation cassidy hutchinson relays where cipollone runs down and says, you know, they're yelling, "hang mike pence," and meadows says to pat, he doesn't want to do anything. he likes it. i mean, the violence was the point from trump's perspective. >> yeah, i mean, there are two things that really leaped out from the cassidy hutchinson hearing. well, more than two, but two that are relevant here. one is, did he anticipate that there would be violence? was this just some big rally on the mall, or was there some anticipation or tolerance of violence? and clearly, the picture she painted is, they didn't care if there was violence, at a minimum. they didn't even care if there was threats in the form of weaponry, because he said, take away the magz, they're not there to hurt me, and then even after the violence began, he was joking about it. he was okay with hanging mike pence. he obviously wasn't trying to do anything to stop it. and the second thing was, did

trump know he was committing crimes? and the committee in my view has proven that he has committed a whole bunch of crimes. it is relevant and interesting information as to whether or not he knew and even cared about whether he was breaking the law, and that's where that comment about, you know, we'd be committing every crime imaginable is relevant. and as someone who's worked in the white house, i think a relevant role of the white house counsel, among many, is that's the person who is keeping an eye out to make sure that you're on the right side of the law on everything. you know, in normal administrations, it's not overturning the government, but it's things like, you know, the hatch act, are you violating prohibitions on political speech out of the white house? that's my interaction with the white house was always getting briefings from them, here's what you can and can't do. so, he would have known, in realtime, in realtime, this is on the wrong side of the law. this is on the wrong side of norms. and what's so fascinating in the human drama is there have been all these people who have done trump's bidding, some gleefully like rudy giuliani, and some

like cipollone who was up there defending him against articles of impeachment. he carried a lot of water for donald trump. does he want to continue to carry that water by not being as forthcoming as he could be? because you can sit in these rooms and say, well, i don't recall that, and you can be somewhat evasive while still sitting there for a few hours. or is he going to tell people what he knows? because if he tells people whoa knows, you've got to think that it's going to sharpen the case around criminality and this tolerance of violence that you spoke about. >> it is an interesting, you know, sort of frame of relativity, jackie, you know, do you want to be less helpful than bill barr, who seemed to enjoy yukking it up and invoking the word b.s. over and over again, colorfully, as well as mr. cipollone's own deputy, eric herschmann, who's also been a fulsome storyteller of the vast sort of criminal concerns that the lawyers had. i mean, we already know so much about how concerned the lawyers were about criminal conduct on

the part of eastman, on the part of trump, by pushing the eastman plan to pence, on the part of rudy, on the -- i mean, there -- it feels like we have so much testimony already of how awash in criminal concerns they all were that in a lot of ways, cipollone would have to take on his two deputies, mr. feldman and mr. herschmann. he'd have to take on cassidy hutchinson. he'd have to take on mark meadows' text messages. what are the -- what did it ultimately come down to that got cipollone in that room today? >> that's a really good question, but our recent reporting has shown that since cassidy hutchinson's testimony, when was that, last week or two weeks ago -- >> it was just last week. >> it's been a long time since these hearings have become. we've been told by our sources involved with the investigation that more republicans other than pat cipollone are coming forward here. >> wow. >> but what we're also seeing

these people trending towards is sort of dancing this fine line between appeasing their former boss, the former president, and cooperating and doing what people view as, quote, unquote, the patriotic thing. pat cipollone, for example, had put out some messaging from people on his team or people affiliated with him prior to appearing that he was, you know, executive privilege warrior and was going to protect his conversations with the president sort of appeasing the people down in mar-a-lago, but then also, you know, indicating to -- a little bit more subtly to the committee that he was going to provide corroboration on the things that have already been made public and on his conversations with all of the other people around the former president. that's also what you've seen eric herschmann do as well, try to maintain his relationship with trumpworld. there are people working for him who are well connected to the former president and continue to be, and -- but also provide very

brash and blunt testimony that herschmann would probably privately say, well, that's not with regards to the former president. i'm criticizing john eastman. i was calling john eastman f'ing crazy, not former president trump. so -- but i think that what we're also going to see is that this young crop of former trump staffers that cassidy hutchinson's of the world, potentially sara matthews, is people who are looking at it from a potentially different frame, people who want to do the right thing, who maybe haven't been able to get a job in the past year and a half since coming out of the trump orbit, haven't been supported by their former superiors, and now see this as a way of potentially trying to make up for what happened on january 6th, assuage some of that guilt that cassidy hutchinson emotionally spoke to. >> wow. that's such a loaded backdrop for all of what we watch. i want to show you, barbara mcquade, to your point about the

republicans. here is congressman fred upton, republican who voted to impeach donald trump, after the insurrection. here's something interesting he said yesterday. >> what disappoints me the most is that here we are a year and a half later, we're now just getting other republicans within the former administration to step up, to tell what they thought, what they saw happen, and where were they a year and a half ago when ten of us voted our conscience and decided to cast the vote that we did? they should have helped us, in my view, back in january when we cast that vote. >> this is so interesting, because it goes to what they all knew at the time, and it comes out they all knew at the time, we have kevin mccarthy's voice on tape with steve scalise and liz cheney and others at the time of the insurrection, they all knew that it was trump's fault, trump was to blame, and without trump, there would be no insurrection. >> yeah, i think this is an excellent point.

i don't know what he said today, but pat cipollone, you know, is no hero. the leadership at the department of justice, jeffrey rosen and rich donoghue, are no heroes. yes, you know, in the moment, they did what they could to stop trump from destroying american institutions, but they kept quiet about it. i'm sure they told themselves all kinds of stories about how executive privilege and attorney-client privilege and other things precluded them from coming forward, but unless they ran to the biden administration on january 21st and told doj exactly what happened, then i do not consider them to be great patriots. >> that's a great point. ben, i want to show you the list of crimes committed by donald trump in the view of donald trump's first criminal attorney who represented him in the mueller probe, ty cobb. >> in a word, does the president deserve blame? yes. if it's as simple as, just do it, which i believe mr. bowers was told in arizona, that's highly problematic.

i mean, i think you've got issues of defrauding the united states with regard to the vice president's issue and the big lie. you've got potential obstruction influencing a witness, and of course, you've got seditious conspiracy if indeed they can tie all those pieces together. i think that will be difficult on the sedition, but i do think there are certainly other criminal activity worthy of investigation. >> so, ben, i've watched it three or four times. this is donald trump's former criminal defense attorney going, you know, i mean, sedition will be hard, but the rest -- i mean, people that are just looking at this on the facts think that in terms of the evidence that's public facing, it's a very good case, very strong case against donald trump. >> yeah. i mean, these are pretty common sense things, right? i mean, he called the secretary of state of georgia and asked him to find more votes for him.

he had a whole plan cooked up in the white house to subvert and obstruct the congress in validating the election and overturning the result of the election. we have had all manner of intimidation, of people who are testifying, you know, these ties to extremist groups. the reality, part of what is so interesting and hearing even a guy like ty cobb talk about this, is there's not, like, one big crime in the book that's like, don't try to overturn the results of an election, because it's like a lot of things with trump, like the laws didn't anticipate someone doing -- >> trump, yeah. >> so, in the mueller report, this was part of the issue. people didn't anticipate someone working with and appealing to a foreign adversary like russia to swing an election. and so we're tying ourselves in knots looking for the crimes. well here, the crimes are actually much plainer, and part of what the january 6th committee's done a good job of is connecting his behavior to not just the intent of overthrowing the election but to specific crimes. now, they've resisted going the

extra step and saying, he committed crimes, but how can we avoid this topic? there's this sense that we're just watching this play out, and the public's going to be convinced, but at the end of the day, the guy committed a whole bunch of crimes on the most serious matter imaginable, the fate of american democracy, and if there's not accountability for that, at the end of the day, i think we've got a big problem. >> yeah, i mean, just ask pat cipollone. that's why we started with those comments. nothing more sacred than the votes of the american people. ben rhodes, jackie alemany, thank you so much for starting us off this hour. barbara sticks around for the hour. after the break for us, president joe biden's frustration spilled out into the open today. we'll hear his fiery rhetoric about protecting abortion rights and his plan to turn democrats' anger over the supreme court into action. plus, the threats of criminal penalties against doctors who provide healthcare to women. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. doctors who provide healthcare

to women "deadline white house" continues after a quick break.

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it is our privilege to be joined right now by california congresswoman and january 6th select committee member zoe lofgren. she is just out of an eight-hour meeting, testimony with former white house counsel pat cipollone. congresswoman, thank you so much. do we have the time right? did you spend about eight hours with pat cipollone today? >> yeah, i don't think that's a secret, but you know, the committee rules prohibit us from discussing the substance of witness testimony without a vote of the committee, so i'm not going to be able to go through

it with you. >> we will not -- we will respect that code. all of you are quite disciplined about it. can i ask, was it a taped deposition, like all the others have been? >> yes. >> so, that tells us we can look to hear from him in the future. i want to ask, i mean, we went back and looked at every public hearing, including the one you led, people have defend about cipollone in every single hearing that you have showcased. can you just characterize how important it was to all of the sworn testimony you've already shown the public to speak to him today? >> well, you know, i don't know that i can characterize it in that way. obviously, he was an important figure in the white house. many of the meetings that he attended, we have information from other participants, so it's

not as if we were completely in the dark on many of these issues. certainly -- >> did -- >> go ahead. >> did -- did anything he say today change any of the plans for next week? >> well, i can't address that. you know, again, one of the protocols we all try and observe is that we let the chair and vice chair announce the schedule of hearings. we do, you know, anticipate our hearing as indicated on tuesday, and i'm looking forward to -- i think it will be a good hearing. it will be connecting some of the dots, and i think there's some information that is not yet publicly known that will be of interest to people. >> congressman raskin has talked about this ring as sort of the center ring, right, the coup

plotters, the high-level government coup plotters. there were the people on the ellipse that marched down, and then there was this center ring, the organized violent extremists, many of them, i think, 855 last time i looked, have been charged by doj. doj believes about 2,000 were in the building. does the -- does that ring get connected through evidence that the committee has turned up to the ring that you focus so much on in the hearings, what was happening at the white house? >> well, let me just say that i think we will be connecting some dots on tuesday that will be important. and without going further and stepping on the hearing itself, it will be a dot-connecting exercise worth looking at. >> is there -- is there anything else that you're able to confirm about next week? we've heard some news organizations talk about potential for hearing on thursday. other news organizations have said that is in flux. do you have any clarity on that as we meet? >> well, again, i'm going to let

the chair and vice chair announce the schedule, but obviously -- there's so much information coming in still, and so you know, we're trying to fly the plane while building the plane to some extent. >> yes. >> and we want to make sure that we have a full and complete report and hearing, and so, that's -- those are the issues and all the balls in the air. >> is part of that -- when we see reports of the possibility of public hearings extending into august, these aren't things that you know and are keeping secret. are these active deliberations about what to do and how long to continue? >> again, i -- you know, i'm not going to make announcements on behalf of the chair and vice chair, that's the role that they're assigned by our committee structure. our mission is to tell the complete story as best we can find it out to the american public and then make recommendations on various legislative changes that we

think would be prudent, and we will be doing that, and as you know, it's been publicly indicated we will have a report at the end of this process, looking at all the likely time frame for that. >> the vice chair of the committee, liz cheney, at a speech at the reagan library, and in interviews, i think, before or after that, made clear that the committee will not stand by and watch the character of credibility of its witnesses assassinated. it came on the heels of cassidy hutchinson's testimony, but has that promise been invoked? i mean, has the harassment or the witness intimidation that witnessed have faced, that the committee made public at the end of ms. hutchinson's testimony, have people come back to the committee and asked them for support after they've cooperated? >> let me just say, it's a matter of grave concern to the committee. it's obvious that people who

step forward and tell the truth are victims of harassment. i mean, we saw that with the election workers from georgia. that was not necessarily official action on the part of the former president, but his supporters threatening them and the like. but the second category of basically trying to interfere with a witness testimony is a crime. and so, we're very alert to that, and we're going to do everything that we possibly can to protect witnesses and to prevent the commission of that type of criminal activity. >> and it is criminal activity to tamper with any witness. do you know if doj has opened an investigation into any of that behavior? >> let me just say that we are certainly going to make all the information we have available to the department of justice relative to the potential crime of witness intimidation, and i can't make an announcement for

them. i mean, the department of justice makes its own decisions and its announcements tend to be in the form of indictment rather than press conference. so, we'll see what they do. >> i want to ask you, if we could go back to the dramatic testimony of last week, to have sat through cassidy hutchinson's testimony in realtime, as a public, we were hearing it for the first time. for all of you, she had been before you four times. are you able to characterize the distinction between her -- the fulsome nature of her testimony between attorneys? because it seems like there are some questions swirling now around the trump-funded attorneys. there's a very public change in counsel that she had, which happened just ahead of her public testimony. are you able to talk about a before and after, you know, she was truthful but not forthcoming? can you characterize that? >> well, i just think, you know,

i wasn't able to sit in on the interviews, but i did read the transcripts of all four of the interviews, and i would say that the fourth interview was the most robust in terms of disclosure and the most like her in-person testimony, but i wouldn't say that she was deceptive in the prior three. i mean, i think she came forward to tell the truth, and as she knew it, and i admire her for doing that, it's not easy, especially for a young person that started their career understanding the ramifications and yet she put her obligations to her country foremost and i respect that a great deal. >> and it is her testimony that ties donald trump most directly to the violence, not just in knowing about it from the secret service telling him the kinds of weapons that were on the mall between the ellipse and the

capitol, but in her testimony about his desire to go with them to the capitol. is that part of her testimony something you expect the committee to continue to pull a thread on and explain to the public? >> well, her testimony isn't the only public testimony we have had. about his interest in going to the capitol, and he said that in the speech itself. what i think was the most telling testimony from ms. hutchinson was when she overheard personally the president say that he didn't -- he didn't care if his supporters were armed, to take the f'ing mags away. they weren't there to hurt him. and then they could march to the capitol, these armed people, after his speech. that's a pretty -- that was what she testified she heard the president say directly. that's pretty amazing. >> does the committee know from

her or other witnesses how trump knew that -- there was no chance they would hurt him? >> i can't answer that. but he knew they were his supporters. >> and not mike pence's? >> well, he said, let me people in. right? that was part of her testimony. my people. and so, his ownership of the armed mob was out of his own mouth. >> when we look back at cassidy hutchinson's testimony, she really brought pat cipollone to life almost as much as she brought mark meadows to life. did that, in your view, change his decision to testify today, and was there a lot of invoking executive privilege, or did the committee tailor the questions for the kinds of things that clearly there's no privilege to invoke?

>> well, let me just say, i don't know what motivated mr. cipollone, and i would -- it would be wrong for me to speculate. he had sat down for a substantial discussion with the lawyers earlier. he came in voluntarily today. so -- and i -- once again, i can't discuss the nature of the testimony under the committee rules without a vote of the committee, which has not occurred. >> i can't imagine this is something you'll answer but i'm going to ask. did he invoke his fifth amendment privileges? >> no. >> yes, or you can't answer? >> no, he did not. >> he did not. so, anything that he wouldn't -- we can assume that he's already expressed concerns about executive privilege. >> well, you know, let me just say there are attorney-client

privileges, there are executive privileges. the current holder of the executive privilege is president biden, who has declined to assert it. the holder of attorney-client privilege is the client. it's not the same as executive privilege. so, you know, those are the issues, but i really am not at liberty to go through, you know, the nature of his testimony today except to say that he did appear voluntarily, it was for over eight hours, and i think we did learn some things. >> will he be back, or was the committee finished by the time he left today? >> well, you know, we always reserve the right if we have a further question, but i think after eight hours, we pretty much got all our questions that we wanted, that we were able to get answered, and there could be further proceedings. we rule nothing out. >> i guess my last question for

you is, what should we be watching for? what are you watching for? what are the questions that are still unanswered, either in terms of the investigation or in terms of sharing with the public? >> well, i think, as i say, we're still getting new information in. some of it, we already knew. but some of it is informative, and so we'll reveal that in the process of these hearings or in the report at a later date. but i think the questions really have always been, what did the former president know? what did he do? relative to january 6th? and i think that picture is becoming ever clearer. it has been through the hearings so far, and i think this tuesday will get an even clearer picture of how this all unfolded. >> congresswoman zoe lofgren, we always appreciate your time but especially after a day that

included eight hours of testimony from former white house counsel pat cipollone. thank you very much. >> you bet. take care. >> thank you. all right. we have to sneak in a quick break. we're going to come back and talk to barbara mcquade about what we just heard from congresswoman zoe lofgren but first that warning from president joe biden about the supreme court's decision to overturn roe vs. wade and the actions he's taking to protect women and abortion rights in america. stay with us. e and the actions he's taking to when you have technology that's easier to control... that can scale across all your clouds... we got that right? yeah, we got that. it's easier to be an innovator. so you can do more incredible things. [whistling] women and abortion rights in america. stay with us

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we cannot allow an out-of-control supreme court working in conjunction with extremist elements of the republican party to take away freedoms and our personal autonomy. the choice we face as a nation between the mainstream and the extreme, what we're witnessing wasn't a constitutional judgment. it was an exercise in raw political power. >> president joe biden today rebuking the stripping away of a constitutional right to an abortion by the united states supreme court. it was at a signing ceremony for an executive order designed to help women obtain access to healthcare. that executive order attempts to safeguard access to medication abortions and emergency contraception, to protect patient privacy, to launch public education efforts as well as to bolster the security of and legal options available to those seeking and providing abortion services. before signing the order, president biden called out the degradations that have already been inflicted on women and

children just two weeks after the supreme court handed down its decision. >> so extreme that many don't allow for exceptions even for rape or incest. just last week, it was reported that a 10-year-old girl was a rape victim. 10 years old. and she was forced to have to travel out of the state to indiana. imagine being that little girl. just -- i'm serious. just imagine being that little girl, 10 years old. does anyone believe that it's ohio's majority view that that should not be able to be dealt with? or in any other state in the nation? a 10-year-old girl should be forced to give birth to a rapist's child? i can tell you what i know. i can't think of anything that's much more extreme. >> joining our coverage, fatima

goss graves, president and ceo of the women's law center and msnbc medical contributor, dr. kavita patel, a former obama white house health policy director. barbara mcquade is still here as well. dr. patel, i think one of the first things you said to me that i found really haunting is that doctors and nurses and healthcare providers don't know what to do anymore. did -- the white house seems to have heard that and to be trying to help. what did you hear? what was important in what the president did today? >> yeah, i thought it was important, nicole, that they had both the secretary of health and human services and the vice president who i think has been trying to identify this for what it is. it's a healthcare crisis. having them both there, having these executive orders, you know, something that barbara probably knows a lot about, the emergency medical treatment and labor act, which is something that all of us physicians and care providers have gotten used to where if somebody presents to a clinic, an emergency room, and they're in an emergency, doesn't

matter who, what, what kind of insurance, no insurance, we are obligated to take care of them. it's our ethical duty. what has turned everything upside down is that there are many states in which even if it is obvious that a woman is in the midst of a spontaneous miscarriage, that because of these arcane laws that are now still law, have been law, will continue to be law, providers have to sit by and wait until that woman -- and you've read the words from the texas tribune, septic, where they're basically almost dead. and so this has created such a quandary for providers. even very simple things, the data issues that have come up, privacy issues. i would never have thought that the simple app i was using to track, you know, my menstrual cycles would actually potentially be used against me and that calls into question so many recommendations that i make to women where i say, look, nobody can remember when they had their last period, so i do think this was important. i don't know if it will be enough because to be honest, the answers -- we need them today. and so i get worried when i read words like "interagency task

force." there's just a part of me that goes, oh no, don't. that's not quick enough. but i can't help but feel that way. but it's a good start. >> fatima, you know, to dr. patel's point, the crisis is now, and i too worked in the federal government, worked in the white house. there's just so much you can do quickly that holds up legally to bring all these pieces together, but in terms of the urgency with which the white house seems to be trying to act, what's your reaction? >> it is totally urgent. i mean, they did say for hhs that they would report back in 30 days with the steps that hhs is going to take around expanding access to medication abortion and contraception and the pieces, so that part felt a little more urgent, but i think we are going to need a task force in an ongoing way. we know what the emergency has been these last two weeks, but

we are going to continue to see this involve both a legal emergency, it's chaotic right now in terms of employers not knowing what to do, patients, providers, and anyone who wants to help them and they accompany public health emergency that is emerging. >> dr. patel, the president there gave voice to this horrific story from about a week ago. republican lawmakers were pressed on it over the weekend on sunday interview shows, and the republican position now, in many states, is that a victim of rape or incest who's pregnant, even as young as 10 years old, would be denied an abortion. it's a really hard thing to talk about. it's a really, really brutal mirror to hold up to our country right now, but this is who we are right now. >> yeah, and on top of that, nicole, even in states -- trust me, i've looked at the laws. i've talked to colleagues who are in these states. when there are exceptions, quote, unquote, for rape and

incest, read the fine print. you have to notify local authorities. the sheriff needs to be notified. literally there are colleagues saying, is there a 24/7 line so that we can reach a sheriff? what is the obligation for the disclosure of that information? why is it their business that they need to i hope this brings to light what has existed before this decision was handed down, and

keeps the fire in the belly, not just in women and people who kind of relate to this on a very visceral level, but everybody, every son, brother, father, should care about this. >> you would hope, right? thank you so much. we are going to ask you to stick around, we want your take on the news of the day. we are going to sneak in a quick break. we will be right back. we will be right the minions are coming to ihop. back.th an all new menu you're going to love. ♪ ♪ excuse me! enjoy the minions menu at ihop. for a limited time kids eat free! and catch minions: the rise of gru. and catch minions: agreed... my patients like these patches because they work for up to 12 hours,

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interview with pat cipollone was recorded so we can expect to see video clips of pat cipollone and subsequent hearings and that he did not want to do this, what was your sense of what would happen to take up eight hours of the day? >> i think he must've been answering a lot of questions. she also said we learned a lot today. i think it is likely that they had worked out in advance the four areas they were going to discuss, those areas were clear of attorney-client and executive privilege. it sounds like he was answering questions and providing information. i would look to those clips and i will be eager to hear what he said. >> something else that i wanted to ask you about, it is clear that they are doing three things at once. telling their story publicly in terms of what they already have, getting new tips and leaves and witnesses coming forward every moment, and staring at this ticking clock, depending on what happens in november, their work could be abruptly shut off. it seems to be a high degree of

difficulty. >> i haven't investigated into the congressional level but i will tell you i have investigated criminal cases and one challenge you always have, is whenever you talk to one witness, you often find out about courtney's more witnesses, you find more documents, there is always more and more and more that you can look at down the rabbit hole and at some point you have to know that it is time, enough, like a good kindergarten teacher knows when to take the fingerpainting away from the child, enough, it is done, it is beautiful. i think someone will have to know when enough is enough. >> it is done, it is beautiful. i can't wait to hear liz cheney say that. barbara, thank you for helping us make sense of it all. thank you. a quick break for us, we will be right back. us, we will be right back.

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. we are so grateful. the beat starts right now. happy friday. >> happy friday. hello, nicole, thank you very much. welcome to the beat. we are going to get right into it because we are tracking more than one breaking story here. there is a major development in the january 6 investigation, literally happening right now. the white house lawyer who warned chump of every crime imaginable is going under oath for the first time today. in essence, this is what losing looks like, trump white house counsel, pat cipollone, testifying under oath. when you talk about people losing the january 6 committee, there is another sign of another major trump white house figure, who then was out, planning and falling about january 6 independently. steve bannon, the washington post crossing a story moments ago that as soon as tomorrow, mister bannon may actually