january 6th committee. another hour of those she begins right now. of those sh begins right >> good morning to, you combining sunday, to you it's july 10th. 9 am, 90 am in the east i'm we're >> -- getting some more insight into donald trump's mindset in the days leading up to and following the capitol insurrection on january 6th just hours ago the new three-part documentary series, unprecedented, premiered on discovery plus featuring interviews with the former president and his eldest children. >> can we talk for minute about january 6th? >> yeah. he was a sad day but it was a day with great anger in our country.

-- it was the angry with an election that they think was rigged. it was a very small portion, as you know, who went down to the capitol. a very small portion of them went in. i will tell you that they were angry from the standpoint of what happened with the election, because they're smart and they see. they saw what happens. i believe that that was a big part of what happened on january 6th. >> use it before that he didn't to talk about the capitol. >> yeah, look at the sixth. >> when you're telling people that a presidential election has been stolen, you can't be shocked when people believe you and then become violent. >> unprecedented was found by the british documentary filmmaker derek holder. yesterday, ahead of its premiere, holder told tmz that they would track the trajectory of donald trump's presidential

campaign to the insurrection. that's something that the january six committee has been hard focused on in their investigation. a few weeks ago, they subpoenaed the footage by holder and interviewed him as well. this week, the committee will be shifting its sights on the role that domestic terrorist groups played in the insurrection. and tuesday morning the committee will be holding its next hearing to detail how far-right groups like the oath keepers and proud boys helped to spread the big lie that the election was stolen from donald trump as well as how they fueled the events of january six. representative jamie raskin said the hearings will trace the links between the former presidents, his team, and the far-right white nationalist extremist militia groups that participated in the attack. tuesday will be the first time that the committee will publicly convene says cassidy hutchison, a former white house aide gave her bombshell testimony about what was happening inside the white house during the insurrection. her testimony reignited interest in what information former white house counsel

pencil pallone might have to share. cipollone was subpoenaed right after this testimony. on friday, he sat down for a marathon eight-hour interview the committee. yesterday the spokesman for the committee said, quote, in our interview with mr. cipollone, the committee received critical testimony on nearly every major topic and its investigation, reinforcing key points regarding donald trump's misconduct of providing highly relevant new information that will play a central role in its upcoming hearings. this includes information demonstrating donald trump supreme dereliction of duty. course, all these relevant stations come back around to donald trump of self. -- she said that the former president was known to throw plates of food, even reportedly get into an altercation with a secret service detail after his speech on january 6th. more importantly, hutchison has offered the clearest picture yet of the link between the

election fraud conspiracies that the trump campaign spread, and the former presidents reluctance to quell the violent mob during the height of the violence at the capitol. joining me now is senior legal affairs coordinator for politico. kyle, thanks for joining us. tell us what the committee is aiming to do this week, because these threads, the threat to overthrow the election and the violent mob at the capitol have so far been parallel but separate. >> so the key word i've been told is convergence. i talk to jamie raskin who's going to leave this hearing and he said that they're not necessarily going to show that donald trump didn't sit down with a member of the proud boys, remember the north keepers that the key groups that were involved in the breach of the capitol. there was some signaling going on. they was clear evidence that donald trump's words, his call to action, to come to d.c., were resonating within those groups in very overt ways that the white house should've been

aware of if they weren't. people of donald trump's orbit were certainly track again. weather going to show, i think, as they were working in parallel in ways that were clearly signaling to each other what was going on and that the trump should've known, as you pointed out, cassidy hutchinson's testimony suggested, he knew there were violent elements in that crowd in court at them anyways, urging them to march the capitol. >> one of the things you wrote about is that on tuesday's hearing is of intense interest to the justice department, which is preparing to try sprawling seditious conspiracy cases against the leadership of both the proud boys and the oath keepers. what is it that you believe the justice department, which is not involved directly in the january 6th hearings, is interested in hearing? when you charge someone with seditious conspiracy in this country, that is a very tough charge. they, i would assume, they're well armed. >> yes. the justice department has extensive information, i think

far more than even the committee does about the alleged conspiracy, the seditious conspiracy by both groups. in fact, the leadership of both groups have been charged and are pending trial later this year. however, the committee has information that it hasn't shared with the justice department yet, including interviews with leaders of those groups excluding some of those charged, and some of those who are not charged, but who may have told the committee things that the doj wants to know before they take these cases to trial. one of the tensions between the two, doj and the committee, has been getting access to the select committee's thousand transcripts, witnessed transcripts, the key among them being interviews with the proud boys for example. the doj wants to make sure that they have all the information they need before bringing these difficult cases to trial. >> what about the oath keepers? they have slightly different roles in that they played on january six, the proud boys and the oath keepers. the leader of the oath keepers, stewart rhodes, the founder, he has made some agreement to talk

to the january six committee, along with some caveats. >> yes. he's already interviewed with them and a few months ago but he pleaded the fifth primarily. he offered the committee to waive his fifth amendment rights to testify about whatever they asked. this is as long as they agreed to let him do it in public, and to give him a platform. i think that's an unlikely cell. they're not going to want to give someone they consider a threat to democracy, someone who can marshal and attack, a literal attack on the capitol, a platform to say what he wants. it is an interesting offer that he's made and put them in a position of having to say, no, we don't hear from you directly. they haven't formally responded to that in any public way. that's still hanging out there ahead at this hearing. >> kyle, thanks again for your excellent reporting on this. we always appreciate it. kyle cheney is the senior legal affairs coordinator a politico. and now joined by mary trump, the -- of the former president. he's the host of the remarkable podcast, the mary trump show.

she's the author of the book too much and never enough and the reckoning. mary, thanks for being with us this morning. we appreciate you talking with us. i don't know if you've had a chance, because it just came out this morning, to have a look at the stalking monterrey in which they interview donald trump, donald trump jr., eric trump, ivanka trump. donald trump, in typical fashion, did not declined to talk to the documentarian about january 6th. it does seem that he truly believes that this was a vehicle for the anger, justified anger americans face seen at the stolen election. >> well, whether he believes that it was justified or not, it certainly is the story that serves him best. it helped him of a direct responsibility for the insurrection which we all know he was directly responsible for. once again, he's deflecting and blaming other people in his

usual fashion and the hopes that will be enough to once again, and his life, of eight accountability. >> interestingly enough, one of the things that you talked about is that donald trump is so worried about what's pat cipollone will had said. we don't know enough about why pat cipollone said, except that when he said did seem to contradict what he said before. there is a reason, i mean, donald trump has a cadre of loyalists around him who we can probably always rely on, or mostly, until the moment that they're about to go to jail. for some reason, you think that he is unduly worried about pat cipollone. why? >> because he was in the room. he has credibility. he understands that his job was to defend the president say, not the person in the office. donald also knows that pat cipollone, at this point, has absolutely no reason to lie or

to take a bullet for donald by covering for him. that's one reason. it's also because it's just one more person out there confirming the stories that we have been hearing for a while now that put donald at the center of the insurrection. i think that it's of a peace with so many other things that are going on right now, both in new york and georgia, et cetera. although donald has gotten away with everything his entire life, so in some senses i'm sure he feels impervious, he can't but notice that the evidence against him is piling up. it's being confirmed. >> let's listen to a little bit more of this documentary because i am intrigued by the difference in response to the documentarian that donald trump had versus the his kids. let's listen to a little more this together. >> you have to prove that you will do anything for him.

ivanka, whereas ivanka? ivanka had been trying to convince her father to concede the election. >> she was very uncomfortable with the presidents lie after the election. she would never utter anything herself to establish that disagreement. >> don jr. recognize the opportunity to outflank ivanka and get closer to trump stepped in. >> when you're at a disadvantage, you don't take your ball and go home, you get out there and you fight harder. >> he was fully on board with the idea that the election was being stolen, that it was being ranked. >> i know people who have gotten five or six ballots to their home. >> everyone knows what's going on. let's get out there, let's kick some ass, that's when. >> he knew this when his father wanted to hear. >> talk to me about that dynamic, mary. you've watched it for a long time through your life, but it was interesting to see how this evolved? ivanka trump, including in her

testimony for january six said, i knew that something was off. donald trump junior has never, has never taken that position. he is in there more than the ex president's themself. >> well it says a lot about this families dynamic, that the only way for donald all of this child to be accepted is for him to lie and pretend that he's a tough guy. this is well he's throwing his sibling under the bus. we've known all along that these relationships are entirely transactional. ivanka clearly came down on the side of realizing that the only way for her to protect herself would be to stay out of it, and not support donald. although, as you mentioned, she didn't say anything publicly. i think that's a really important thing that we all need to remember. this is not just about donald

or his family, or even his inner circle, the entirety of, well almost the entirety of republicans in congress, also chose to say nothing. this is led us to this very fraught moment we're living in right now. >> i was just talking to frank lance about that because what's happened to boris johnson in the uk is telling. he also had a lot of supporters, he also had a lot of people who thought that his bluster was quaint an interesting. even they said, we've had enough. something that has not yet happened in the united states. it does seem, frank was kind of saying, in the uk, these members of parliament, these cabinet ministers realize that boris johnson had become an albatross. he was going to weigh them down and they were going to lose because of him. that hasn't happened yet in the united states. do you see it happening? >> i think that there will come a time when someone like ron desantis sees a more attractive candidate. this is kind of a horrifying thing to say because this -- is incredibly dangerous.

this party cannot be allowed to pretend that the problem is donald trump. the problem is that for years, they enabled him, they supported him, they basically made use of him to ram through policies that would help them maintain minority power forever. it's the entire party that needs to be ignited. if we had allowed them to claim success fully that the only problem is donald, and once we get rid of donald the republican party will be just fine, i think we're heading to some very dark times. >> that is a key an important point for us to never remember. it comes very easy to concentrate on donald trump all the time, but there's more to it than that. mary, good to see you as always. mary trump is the needs of donald trump the host of the podcast mary trump show. she's also the author of the books too much never now, if and the reckoning. up next, how a grassroots

efforts bring up to protect abortion rights despite at nearly century old law used to criminalize that. also, the war in ukraine. i'll talk to a member of congress just returned from the region about the situation on the ground about more we can do to help. for this week's meeting at the banned book club, all welcome ashley hope perez, author of out of darkness. this is a historical fiction novel for young adults at some across the country do not want you to read. r young adults at some when you have technology that's easier to control... you to read. that can scale across all your clouds... we got that right? across the country do no things. [whistling]

every search you make,

every click you take, every move you make, every step you take, i'll be watching you. the internet doesn't have to be duckduckgo is a free all in one privacy app with a built in search engine, web browser, one click data clearing and more stop companies like google from watching you, by downloading the app today. >> abortion rights will more duckduckgo: privacy, simplified.

than likely be on the ballot in michigan this november, as supporters fight to keep them protected while abortion remains legal in the state right now, it is hanging on by a thread. michigan is one of the states that has a pre roe abortion ban still on its books, a lot of dates all the way back to 1931. now once roe is overturned, that ban would have gone into an effect, if a judge had not issued an a junction to block it from doing so. that's the main reason that abortion remains legal right now in michigan. but as you can imagine, republicans are actively working to get rid of that injunction. but while it is playing out in the courts, an effort is underway to permanently safeguard the right to an abortion in the state. a measure has been proposed to amend the state constitution that would explicitly protect reproductive rights, including abortion. volunteers have been collecting signatures for a petition to

allow it to appear on the ballot this november, and put the amendment up to a vote of everybody. tomorrow is the deadline to submit those signatures, and it appears that the volunteers have more than enough. according to an organizer, the campaign is collected nearly 800,000 signatures. they need about 400,000 for this the ballot measure to be put on to the ballot. if certified, it might be the most successful ballot campaign in michigan's history. for more, i'm joined by dana nessel, attorney general for the state of michigan. attorney general, good to see you. thank you for being with us this weekend. tell us more about this. all around the country, people are looking for things that they can do in the immediate aftermath of the collapse of roe v. wade. this ballot measure has been remarkably successful. 800,000 signatures alone, just to get it on the ballot? >> yes, that is right. in my memory, i'm a lifelong

michigan or, i can't recall a ballot that's ever been this popular, or ballot proposal which is ever received this kind of support in a way of signatures. i will go to farmers markets around the state in the last month and see a line of people, just waiting to sign this ballot petition. we live in a state where the legislator will not protect us. obviously, the united states, the supreme court will not protect us and now it is up to the citizens of the state of michigan to protect ourselves. that is what we are doing, via this ballot proposal. >> we spoke to a number of attorney generals in michigan, as we were preparing for this to happen with roe the wade. and a number of them said, including the district attorney from wayne county, which is where detroit's, said they will prosecute these charges. but if i have an attorney general who defeats you, for instance, who does not wish to not prosecute, it is out of their hands?

>> yes. that is absolutely right. honestly, it does not matter that we have seven or more county prosecutors in some of our most populous counties, indicating that they will not prosecute abortion-related fetuses. if you have an attorney general, who is the top law enforcement official in the state, and has jurisdiction in all 83 counties, that person certainly can prosecute, as every single county in the state, and have wide authority to investigate, prosecute incidents, and in a better position to do so than any county prosecutors. my opponent has vowed, vigorously, to prosecute cases. in fact, he is so extreme, that right to life refused to endorse him because he refused to provide for an exception to save the life of the woman. he said there was no circumstances under which a woman's life would be in jeopardy, because of a

pregnancy or due to childbirth. so it's a very scary set of circumstances in the event we don't pass this ballot proposal, and honestly, if my opponent wins the election. >> what happens there? because this might be on the ballot, this measure will likely be on the ballot to make abortion rights, protected by the michigan constitution. but you are on the ballot, governor whitmer is on the ballot. tell me how those two things square. let's say the ballot measure winds, but your opponents come in, and governor whitmer's opponent comes in. how do those two things square? >> well if the ballot proposal, i think it's all assured that it will, it's over the 800,000 signatures a needs, only 225,000 have to be valid. i suspect we will be on the ballot. if it passes, when of course there is no prosecutorial

entity in the state they'll be able to prosecute these cases, because you know, abortion rights will be codified into the michigan constitution. that means birth control, which you know for some reason is under attack right now,, in fertility care, prenatal writes, miscarriage, management, all kinds of things to protect women across this state. but that does not mean that if you have the wrong people in positions of authority, they won't do whatever they can to investigate providers, which is uncertain. i will say this, if we get enough people out to vote on this ballot proposal, my hope, my assumption is that they will want to elect, reelect pro-choice candidates for office. not just for the executive offices, but also hopefully in effort to flip the ballots in the senate. because right now, the house and the senate are intervening

in these lawsuits to get these preliminary injunctions. like you said, it's the only thing that's stopping this 1931 law from going into place, from being enforceable. they are trying to get that lifted today, so prosecutors can immediately begin enforcing a very draconian law. so we need to do something but the legislator as well. >> dana nessel, good to see you again, thank you for joining us this morning. she is the attorney general for the state of michigan. straight ahead, i'm joined by the united states congressman who just returned matchup from eastern europe, or he took a closer look at america's efforts to help the people of ukraine. meanwhile, we do have news out of eastern ukraine, in the beginning of donetsk. look at this, last night, russian rocket fire destroyed 25 story buildings in a small town. that is according to ukrainian officials over there. several people have been pulled from the rubble, but emergency crews report at least 15 people so far are confirmed dead.

many more are believed to be trapped under the rubble, including at least one child. the search and rescue operation remains ongoing. we will bring you many more updates as we have them. u many mor u many mor update on our jackets? -denied. -can you imagine? i want a new nickname. can you guys start calling me snake? no, bryan. -denied. s ow about we all get quotes to see if we can save with america's number one motorcycle insurer? approved. cool! hey, if bryan's not gonna be snake, can i be snake? -all: no.

every search you make, every click you take, every move you make, every step you take, i'll be watching you. the internet doesn't have to be duckduckgo is a free all in one privacy app with a built in search engine, web browser, one click data clearing and more stop companies like google from watching you, by downloading the app today. we turn now back to russia's duckduckgo: privacy, simplified.

war in ukraine. this entirely unprovoked war that has been going on for four months, two weeks, two days. my next guest just returned from a trip to the ukraine border where he saw firsthand the efforts being made to support the ukrainian people. joining me now is democratic congressman of illinois. he's a member of the house intelligence and oversight committee. congressman, thanks for being with us. you and i were talking yesterday and you are deeply concerned that we'll we are on the root side of the equation here in regards to this conflict since day one, people are losing focus on. it is becoming hard after four

months in two days to keep focused on this. people start worrying about other things. you are here to remind us why we can't do that. >> that's exactly right, ali. i was struck by the remarkable deployment of the sophisticated weapons systems that we ship to the ukrainians in their fight against the russians. take, for example, the high marks system. this is the high mobility artillery rocket systems. these are inflicting deep losses behind enemy lines and ukraine. the question, of, course this is how quickly we can supply the ukrainians with the sophisticated weapons systems given the russians advantage and man power and equipment. as long as the ukrainians do a remarkable job of deploying these weapon systems, i'm hopeful that they can outlast the russians on the frontlines. >> let's talk about outlasting.

with each day that this goes on, and remember, at the beginning of this thing, u.s. intelligence, russia's intelligence, british intelligence, everyone thought this was going to be over in very short order. that it wasn't. that's why rally the world. the idea that these ukrainians were able to fight off a much bigger more established army from a much richer country. with each day this goes on, does it not feel that russia's gaining the advantage because the world sort of forgets about the intensity with which we need to continue to support ukraine? >> well i think that's why we need to shore up support from the ukrainians as much as possible. it is going to be a long slog. i do think that the russians, even though they're willing to throw massive numbers of people into the death grinder on the front lines of the ukrainian battle stay in, you know, even the lattimore putin is reluctant, for instance, and

engage in a general mobilization order within his own country. in order to get everyone into the fight. i do think that he also fears the we've percussionists of a long drawn out warn you crane. all that being said, ukrainians have to continue to receive the support that we've sent them so far and then some so they can do everything they can to make this particular war as painful for the russians as possible. >> what's your sense of the resolve of the ukrainian people? it amazed me while i was in eastern europe and getting a lot of them who is come across the hungry or poland the marketable result they had, and then once i was in ukraine, it was only reinforced. for people who have taken a hell of a beating for more than four months, they don't seem to be weakening in their resolve to say, this is not going to end with any other way than russia getting out of ukraine. >> that's exactly right, ali. i was impressed by the

ukrainians resolve, but i've also impressed by the resolve of the allies. this is including the polish. earlier, the polish are basically taking care of two to 3 million refugees. mostly women, children, elderly, and their country. they're doing so without batting an eye. i think that goes to how our allies and europe view this as an existential threat. i think when they do so, they obviously are preparing for the long cost of the war. and if the ukrainians have morale on their side, high morale on their side. the russians do not, quite frankly. >> congressman, good to see. you thank you for joining us this morning, we always appreciate you on the show. democratic republic and -- -- the book club is in session. don't go anywhere. >> club is in don't go anywhere.

among my patients, i often see them havesession. >> does it worry me? absolutely. sensodyne sensitivity & gum gives us the dual action effect that really takes care of both our teeth sensitivity as well as our gum issues. there's no question it's something that i would recommend. ♪ ♪ this is the moment. for a brand new treatment for moderate-to-severe eczema.

cibinqo - now fda approved 100% steroid free not an injection, cibinqo is a once-daily pill for adults who didn't respond to previous treatments. and cibinqo provides clearer skin and helps relieve itch. cibinqo can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. before and during treatment, your doctor should check for infections and do blood tests. tell your doctor if you've had hepatitis b or c, have flu-like symptoms, or are prone to infections. do not take with medicines that prevent blood clots. serious, sometimes fatal infections, lymphoma, lung, skin and other cancers, serious heart-related events, and blood clots can happen. people 50 and older with heart disease risk factors have an increased risk of serious heart-related events or death with jak inhibitors. this is the moment. but we've only just begun. a new innovation from pfizer. speak with your doctor about cibinqo today. just a few moments ago we spoke

with michigan attorney general about how abortion could soon be on the ballot for voters in her state. now voters and pennsylvania may soon be in the same situation. this past week, both chambers of pennsylvania's republican control state legislature approved a proposal that would amend the states constitution to include clear language banning the right to abortion, paving the way for a referendum in the swing state. jonathan kaye part, the host of

msnbc's the sunday show is going to be tackling the story on his program this morning. hello, my friend. and i surprise that i got to see you i talked to a couple times. talk to me about the pennsylvania that, this is very interesting. most people know the pennsylvania has democrats on the executive office says republicans controlled the state houses so the state house in the senate. >> that is correct. good morning, ali. the pennsylvania legislature is forging ahead fast to try to amend the constitution to see that abortion is not a fundamental right. friday night in, an impassioned speech, democratic state representatives milken can get a called out republicans for what he calls lies and the abortion bill. he had his mic suddenly cut. we are going to talk about representative kenyatta and abortion rights advocate robin marnie about what's happening in this post rogue nation. also we're going to be looking at mass shootings from several vantage points this morning, ali. march for our lives founder

derek cobb will join me to talk about if the radicalization of young white men's burning in some of these attacks. civil rights attorney, maya wylie, we'll talk about how some groups want convictions for the suspects. but, not the death penalty. ali, we're going to have a special tribute today for pioneering giants. clifford alexander junior. the first black secretary at the united states army. he was huge. we'll have a lot coming up at 10 am today. >> do you have an extra hour? where are you gonna fit this all? then you've got a lot of show there. >> for killing briggs, we're just gonna go right on through. >> don't say that, the bosses i listen. and you can't say stuff like that. >> i know. >> good to see, my. friend msnbc is packed sunday show, join jonathan at the top of the hour, 10 am, eastern. he's got some great stuff today right after velshi. time to go get your coffee ready. sit in your comfy chair. after the break, i shall call to order this week's meeting of

the velshi banned book club. on the agenda this week, hour of darkness by ashley perez. that's next. ashley perez. when you have technology that's easier to control... that can scale across all your clouds... we got that right? yeah,that's got t. it's easier to be an innovator. so you can do more incredible things. [whistling]

out of darkness, today's feature for the velshi banned book club could be categorizing several ways. it is a tragic interracial love story. it's an honest and brutal look at racism in the 1930s. it examines the painful reality of objectifying women. it also is historical fiction. it's set against a real life tragedy, the new london school explosion. in 1937, and natural gas leak destroyed the entire texas school killing nearly 300 students and teachers. the blast is only one of the books horse, not the only one that stays with you have to close the cover. our heroine is naomi, a bilingual mexican american girl. after the death of her mother, she and her to have siblings

move to the oil town of new london with her deeply abusive white stepfather, henry. while naomi's have siblings are able to pass as whites, and easily assimilate to their new surroundings, naomi's experiences the opposite. then she finds washed, one of the few black people in the community. he's kind, he provides solace, protection, and the kind of buoyant hope that only comes with the first love. naomi and wash our certainly star crossed lovers, and their end is even more gruesome than that of romeo and juliet. there is violence, and a rape scene. the effect is devastated, and shock. again it doesn't feel gratuitous. the violence could not exist without the pervasive racism within their texas town, and so much of the nation at the time. it could not exist without the abuse of stepfathers patriarchal need for control. perhaps the true devastation in reading this difficult scene is that the realization that something so appalling could also exist outside the pages of a book. out of darkness is told from

multiple points of view. alternating by chapter, so as told through the eyes of not just naomi and wash, but also from the points of view of henry the use of stepfather, and a group of deeply sexist and racist boys known as the gang. they function as a collective, a refrain of their racist and sexist songs of the town. the gang introduces the reader to the relentless objectification and harassment that naomi faces as a woman every single day. particularly, as a mexican american woman. the gangs voice is intentionally crude. one parent, and light, travis took umbrage with this particular passage from one of the gangs chapters in which the young men up the gang casually and explicitly discuss what it would be like to rape the main character naomi. this parent addressed her local school board ends the speech she made went viral for her tirade against the book. i am not going to play the clip here because this is a family shell, most of the time. this parent quoted and zeroed

in on a couple of explicit words, and urge the school to quote, start focusing on education and not public health. the public response that bible video isn't surprisingly split down the middle. some of this woman of being overwrought, others applauded her desire to protect our children. she is far from the only parent or school board to come out four out of darkness, this book has been targeted all over the country. it's already been banned and 16 school districts, and it's number three on the american library associations topless of talent most challenged books of 2021. my role as executive chair person of the velshi banned book club's not to defend out of darkness, as an easy read, or suggest that it's appropriate for every reader. it is neither. it is brutal, a searing. sometimes you need to close the covers and come up for air from this book out of the darkness. challenging subject matter,

emotional writing, and gruesome events do not a band book make. assuming you are in advanced radar, or motion lee quipped four out of darkness, you stand-alone great deal from that. this book harnesses the power of discomfort that we have talked so much about as a book club. right after the break, i'm thrilled to be joined by the author about of darkness, ashley ho perez. about o among my patients, i often see them havef teeth sensitivity as well as gum issues. does it worry me? absolutely. sensodyne sensitivity & gum gives us the dual action effect that really takes care of both our teeth sensitivity as well as our gum issues. there's no question it's something that i would recommend. ashley ho perez.

all right about chief ample

club is now in session. i'm thrilled to be joined by ashley ho perez, she is the associate professor of comparative studies that ohio state university. she is the author of the book out of darkness. she's the recipient of numerous honors, including the 2016 prince award for excellence and young adult literature. ashley, good morning to you. thank you for joining us on the velshi banned book club. >> thank you so much for having me. >> out of darkness is a challenge in re-, there's no question about. it is tough. what's do you say to parents who argue that their child is not ready for book like this? >> adam, i am a parent so i really relate to those concerns. i would tell them, no problem. your child doesn't need to read this book. if they want to read it, read it with them if you have concerns. >> let's talk about the passage that the lake -- the mother and late travis had problems about. for obvious reasons i'm not going to read out that passage. it is graphic. they get in the scene's

imagination what it would be like to rape the main character. it talks about, well talks about a lot of tough subject matter. tell me about that particular thing. this mother seem to be quite taken by that and there's a concern that out of context, that makes sense but she set. it's not out of context, it's a passage in your book that is meant to be about something. >> yeah. my goal, like many out there is, is not to endorse negative behavior. sometimes we need to represented to be able to show the effects that has on people and their communities. one of the things that i didn't out of darkness was use these passages from the perspective of the game to condense the racism and misogyny that are part of what's the main character naomi has to deal with. by putting it in a pressure cooker, conciliate down,

readers get what's like to walk into a school space and be confronted with the stairs. we, as readers, see what are they thinking? what are they assuming they get to do to her body? that kind of representation has been really important for readers, especially those who aren't often on the receiving end of that kind of treatment or tension. certainly young man reading that are not beat encouraged to enact those behavior as, but to think about what's their choices of words looks, actions, mean for the women and their lives. >> you are connecting something that maybe some young man who are violent and racist would say, but there also seems to be a subtext about how maybe the things that we men say around each other can have a remarkable impact even if your intent is not what you actually believe it to be. >> correct. that's one of the things to

recognize. i think the power boards is not just in your intent, but in the effects that it has. i also is about what kind of cold climate you crater on other peoples bodies and how they are red as available are unavailable. >> there is a long history of controversial young adult books. flowers in the attic by pc anders, go ask alice by beatrice parks, even bridge to tear a bit out by kathryn pederson. all of these are considered contemporary or call classics at this point. they all faced extreme uproar, bands, challenge is. talk to me about writing for the genre. you have to go into it knowing you're going to face this kind of scrutiny. >> you do. i think this book came out in 2015. i did anticipate pushed back then, and it never came. i think folks recognize what's, you know, that was at the height of the emergence of black lives matter movements. i think folks were receiving it, recognizing what was the significance of these kinds of

starting conversations about racialized violence in our history as we were reckoning within our present. i think that as far as the fact that people get worked up about what young people are reading has to do with fear and control. no one and the school board medians is talking about they cell phones that are in their kids pockets. they have immediate access to so much content. i think what is important about literature, it has been in the case of all the books you mentioned, and many other books of literature, is the opportunity to create for young people. rather than focus on objections parents have, schools can focus on how they are supporting parents, teachers, librarians, students, and having difficult conversations that we really need to have. >> does it help if the concept around teaching this book and school does include all the criticism and why? that's kind of how i remember

it. to be clear that this is controversial writing, or certainly was when it was released. this is how it has a vault. wouldn't that be the goal? sitting there and saying, this is the teachers guide out of darkness as opposed to, let's not read out a darkness. >> sure. first of all, i don't know if out of darkness has ever been in a sign book in any classroom. it's, the most inclusion it's hadn't curriculum is as a book club choice. an option. it's always optional reading for young people. i think that's important to stress when folks are looking at the books that are being banned across the country. we're talking about removing them as choices from libraries. yes, you know, a teaches guide, if a teacher wants to teach out of darkness, they should certainly prepares students and their parents for the kind of content it has. however, most cases, this is just a book that is available on the shelf along with

faulkner, hemingway, and all the other many works of literature that also engage with difficult content. the bible, that's my favorite. >> this is an important point that you make, because a lot of books that are banned or not talk to students, they're just available to students. >> correct. that's right. i was a high school teacher so i can say, i wouldn't assign this to a tenth grade literature class. >> right, that's what we face. a lot of people say, there are certainly people who say this is but -- let's keep this available for people, let them make informed choices of their equipped to handle it. thank you so much for joining us at the velshi banned book club. actually hope perez is the author of the book out of darkness. i could continue this conversation for ages, by the way. guess what? today i get to do just that. i'm going to keep speaking with the author right after our show ends on tv, and you'll be able to stream the extended cut of this discussion later this week exclusively on peacock. we should check it out.

for now that doesn't, that does it for me. thank you for catching velshi. catch me next saturday and sunday morning from 8 to 10 eastern. the sunday show with jonathan park continues right now. >> the big lie, under the microscope. new details on former trump white house counsel pat cipollone told the january six committee. when to expect that this week's hearing on the extremist groups at the insurrection. protesters demand the white house do more to protect abortion rights, as states move to pass new restrictions. we will tell you why pennsylvania is the latest battleground. and, for all of you disgruntled democrats, keep your eyes on the ball, y'all! >> for god's sake, there is an election in november. vote, vote, vote, vote! >> could not agree more, mister president. i am jonathan capehart. this is the sunday show