>> i will never have regrets from pushing this, it's my mom story, and nobody else could tell it. my mom story, this sunday, nervous democrats. >> to say this president has not shown urgency is just false. >> growing criticism from democrats that president biden needs to show some fun. >> we want the president to crawl into every corner and say, what can we do to help. >> to guns. >> if you are angry today, i'm here to tell you be angry. i'm furious. >> to the economy. mr. biden says his options are limited. and republicans are standing in the way. >> that's why my plan is not finished and why the results aren't finished either. >> i will talk to commerce

secretary gina raimondo. >> plus, the republicans leadership challenge. >> get murkowski out of here because she's not a republican. >> how much influence does former president trump have on the gop? maryland's republican governor rr larry hogan joins me. plus, pat cipollone testifies after cassidy hutchinson's explosive appearance. >> please don't go up to the capitol. we're going to get charged with every crime imaginable if we make that happen. i'll talk to committee member congresswoman stephanie murphy about what cipollone told the committee. >> elon musk wants out of his deal to buy twitter over a dispute about spam accounts. >> he's just reaching out to something to blame. >> we're hear from tara swisher co-host of the box media's pivot podcast. joining me are hallie jackson,

daniel la gibba and rich lowry, editor of "national review." welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." >> from nbc news in washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is "meet the press" with chuck todd. good sunday morning. the phrase you hear most often these days when frustrated democrats talk about president biden is meet the moment. as in can president biden meet the moment? americans arguably elected joe biden for two reasons. one, because he wasn't donald trump. and, two, because he was going to be bring some stability and competence to the white house. and calm the country down. turn down the volume, if you will. while mr. biden has succeeded in not being donald trump. many complain he needs to show more passion, bang the table, raise the volume, take some chances, challenge the boundaries. in other words, meet the moment

that these crises have entailed. all the talk about mr. biden's lack of passion is code for concern about his age. so is the criticism fair? president biden has delivered the presidency he promised. he's been the grownup who plays by the rules. some think plays by the rules too well and he does try to work with republicans when he can. though some think he shouldn't try so much. the democrats progressive face always wanted more and mr. biden was never their first choice. even if the criticism isn't fair, the sentiment is real and potential democratic white house hopefuls are quietly and in some cases not so quietly preparing to have their moment if the president doesn't have his. >> we have a massive human rights violation in this country and he's not responding at that level. >> as many democrats plead for a fire, president biden is pointing out the limits of his power. >> i'm stating a basic fundamental notion. the fastest way to restore roe

is passing a national law codifying roe. >> after signing an executive order on access to abortion. and emergency contraception. >> if you want to change the circumstances for women and even little girls in this country, please go out and vote. >> some democrats who did vote in 2020 are disappointed with the democrats' failure to pass their agenda. pass the big ticket legislation and biden's reluctance to use the bully pulpit to change people's minds. >> democrats don't fight for nothing. right now, imagine being in a recession and they're not trying to fight to help or nothing and biden, to me, just talk in circles. >> biden was elected to restore competency and stability in washington after donald trump. he trails other presidents at this point in the election cycle. after a lingering pandemic, the chaotic withdrawal from afghanistan, failure to stem rising costs, failure to pass voting rights legislation and a failure to substantially address

climate change or immigration challenges. >> has the biden administration done a good job handling the border? >> they haven't done enough, no. >> whispers that his age and leadership style have limited his ability in the next term have gone public. >> he will be 86 years old. i'm not sure if any of us know 86 year olds that should be running the country. >> if he does run, he will have my support. >> echoed by voters. >> given what he was handed, he's really doing a good job. but we do need younger voices. >> my understanding that part of the wager in 2020 was that he was only going to run once. >> and some democrats eyeing 2024 are stepping in to the vacuum. california governor gavin newsom even aired tv ads over the july 4th weekend in florida. >> i urge all of you living in florida join the fight or join us in california where we still believe in freedom. >> illinois governor jb pritsker

had a response to last week's mass shooting. >> you are angry today, i'm here to tell you be angry. i'm curious. >> now biden, who ran promising to be a transitional figure. >> look, i view myself as a bridge, not as anything else. >> is trying to tamp down speculation he might not be on the ballot in 2024 as voters who elected biden to be above the fray worry he is not well suited for the current fight ahead. >> i think his energy matters. i want to see him out here fighting for these things. >> joining me now is the commerce secretary and former governor of rhode island. welcome to "meet the press." >> good morning. >> your purview is the economy largely. let me ask a simple question this way. what do you attribute to the fact that three-quarters of the country feel like the country is headed in the wrong direction? how much of it is economic in your view?

>> i think quite a bit of it is economic and specifically i think it's inflation. so, you know, look, obviously it's frustrating. if you were to ask me what do i think of the economy, i would say we have a very strong economy. you know, unemployment is down. we have recovered all the jobs since, lost in the pandemic. people's household balance sheets are strong. however, when you go to the grocery store, prices are high. when you fill up your car at the tank, prices are high. and so consumers, americans, are feeling that. and i think that is largely the reason folks say, as you said, we're headed in the wrong direction. but if you -- i was just talking to a ceo of a big company and asking him, as i always do talking to people, you know, what do you think about the economy? and he said the economy is strong. customers are buying. businesses are strong. people are adding jobs. he said we're trying to talk

ourselves into a recession. and i agree with that. you know, i think fundamentally the economy is strong. but if you go to the grocery store every day getting ready for that summer picnic and prices are high, you feel frustrated. and, you know, we get that. >> i want to talk about a couple things the administration hasn't done yet that have been thought of as pretty good short-term solutions. i was talking with stephanie murphy, democratic congresswoman from florida. she pointed out three things. and i've heard this from others. getting rid of many of these trump tariffs and boosting legal immigration and implementing on all of the above energy policy. i want to take the first two. you would like to see some of these trump tariffs gotten rid of on household items. you're not the only one in the administration. why hasn't that happened yet? >> the president is in the process of making that decision. i want to say a couple things about this. we should be clear about what lifting tariffs would and wouldn't do. right?

like lifting tariffs isn't going to bring down top line inflation in a very significant way. what it will do, potentially, is help consumers on certain household goods. so for that reason, given where inflation is, i think it could make sense to do it. but the president is being thoughtful about this, unlike president trump. those tariffs he imposed made no sense. so we are briefing him, and i expect to make a decision shortly. if he decides to lift certain tariffs, it will be because he knows he has to think about doing everything he possibly can to provide any relief to consumers. but he's going to do it in a thoughtful way that is strategic and also most important, most important to him and to all of us is without hurting american workers. and that's what we're trying to get done here. with respect to immigration, you know, that's an issue for congress to take up. and i think that, you know, it's

a discussion that we should have. everybody knows, ask any economist. >> we're not the single biggest driver actually right now with our supply chain problems, with the labor pressure, with all of this that in many ways this inflationary pressure in some ways is this labor shortage on the lower end of the scale, right? >> in a lot of ways, absolutely. not in some ways. it's a huge driver. and, so, increasing labor supply would certainly help. the other thing we need to do is get women back into the workforce. you talk about single biggest issues. look at workforce participation of women without a college degree. we have to be there for those women to get child care, to, you know, reproductive health is on everybody's mind. that's going to hurt the economy. you know, child care, health care, skills. train these women so they are able to get jobs that are

available today and be productive members of the workforce. if you are serious about the labor shortage, lean in to making sure women can fully participate. >> on the issue of energy crisis, the president proposed a gas tax holiday. there has been crickets in congress. what other ideas do you have to lower the price of gas? >> so that is one. and hopefully congress takes action. the other thing the president is working on is just increasing supply. you know, fundamentally this inflation we're experiencing, whether it's gas or goods, is being driven by a lack of supply. now, there is some good news, right? you saw wholesale gas prices drop significantly recently. i think that's due to the increased supply. and now we have to make sure consumers feel that at the pump. but the president is pushing producers, domestically and globally to increase supply so that consumers start to feel it at the pump. >> you brought up abortion rights.

it is interesting. whether it is inflation, whether it is abortion rights, whether it is yet another gun massacre in illinois, there is a growing group of democrats that are frustrated, believe that the president isn't showing enough energy, isn't showing enough fight on any of these issues. is any of this criticism in your view justified? >> no. no. look, it's not about who is the best performer. this isn't about, you know, performing. this is about who is going to go to work every day and get the job done and deliver for women. i have to say on a personal level. i first fell in love with senator biden way back when when he was fighting for the violence against women act. i was an intern at the department then. this is a guy who has been fighting decades to working, fighting, to help women with every day rights and now just signed an executive order to

preserve women's health care and reproductive rights. >> what does that order do other than tell everybody to follow the law? it looks like it is a glorified press release. >> well, you know, you put your finger on an issue. a lot of the things coming the president's way he doesn't have a silver bullet to solve. i mean, these issues have to be solved by congress or in this case the supreme court and congress. so he's doing what a good executive does, which is go to his team and say, give me every option that -- every tool in my tool box. and that's what this executive order does. he's pushing the limits of his authority to stand up for women who have had a right taken away. and that's what i -- look, i know people are frustrated. folks are cranky with a lot of good reason. but we have to focus on who is going to work every day and solving these problems. not who uses the most fiery language. it is who is going to stick up for women and deliver for them, whether it is health care,

reproductive rights or jobs or training or child care. and that's president biden. >> secretary gina raimondo, former governor of rhode island, appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us. >> thanks. >> you got it. from one party's leadership challenge to another, republican party is also facing one. president trump wields huge influence on republicans in congress. but republican governors have been able to maintain some independence from him. joining me now is the republican governor of maryland, larry logan. welcome back to "meet the press." >> good morning. >> you have been alone on this for years saying the governors are pushing back and you're starting to see more evidence of that. i want to start overseas. is there anything to be learned from what the torrys did with their unpopular and controversial leader? >> maybe not getting away from

what the basic tenets of your party are and changing direction. you know, i think he did some crazy things that didn't make the public very happy and he lost his position. >> why isn't the americans -- america's conservative party doing the same thing with their leader? >> i would argue that we are. it's just taking longer than it should. as you pointed out, i have been talking about this for years now. i felt like i was on a lifeboat all by myself. but now we need a bigger boat because more and more people are speaking out every day. i was chair of the national governor's association. we were pushing back all throughout covid. i have said that president trump's, you know, influence on the party was going to diminish over time. it hasn't happened, you know, rapidly, but it has diminished dramatically. there are only about 34% of republican primary voters who want to see the president run again. >> you know, you are in this awkward spot. you work with a lot of these governor races around the country. governor kemp was able to push back trump influence. look at what's happening in arizona.

there is a fight there. look at maryland. you have a fight there. look at what's happening in michigan and there is no anti-trump candidate because of bad campaign tactics, if you will. you win some, you lose some. arizona and michigan are tough ones to lose, you know? >> i agree. but it is an example of the fact that trump's influence is diminishing. i'm on the executive committee. five different governors where trump was attacking them. all of them won. i did events for brian kemp. staffers working on his campaign. he won by 52 points. and brad little won. kay ivy won. all the incumbent governors that trump went after have won their primaries. but, yeah, national democrats are now colluding with trump. >> that's funny you say. i want to play you an ad now and ask you about it. here it is. this is one running in maryland. >> dan cox, donald trump's hand picked candidate for maryland governor. cox worked with trump, trying to prove the last election was a fraud. dan cox, too close to trump, too conservative for maryland.

>> obviously we know they're trying to say, hey, look at who is the more conservative guy. they're not pretending they like the candidate here. sometimes you see that in these subtle ads. but is this a death penalty problem or a democratic party aggressiveness? >> well, it's both. i think this is a perfect example of -- they're talking about defending democracy. but they're spending tens of millions of dollars to promote conspiracy believing -- you know, this guy they're promoting this with guy took two bus loads to the capitol on january 6th. >> but trump endorses him. >> do you blame the democratic party for pointing that out? >> trump shouldn't be endorsing him but the democratic party should be spending millions of dollars trying to promote conspiracy theorists. >> if trump wasn't doing it, you would have a better case. >> nobody has been standing up more to donald trump than me. i am going all around the country helping people that trump is attacking and we're winning most of them.

>> based on what you scene. >>ed from the january 6 committee and what you take away, do you think he should be charged with a crime? >> i think that's for the justice department to decide because i think one thing the american people do want is to take the politics out of it and get to the facts of what happened. i think the committee has done a service in bringing a lot of people forward that are finally talking and we have more information than we did, but that's something the justice department has to decide. >> do you think the country can handle prosecuting a former president? >> yeah. i'm not sure we can. but i think no man is above the law. if that's where the facts lead, that's what has to happen. but a lot of people are talking about january 6th, but i was taking action on january 6th. i sent the maryland police and maryland national guard. they were the first to arrive to depend the leaders of congress -- to defend the leaders of congress. >> your state, the supreme court ruling on the new york law meant maryland's permit law, you were

going to have to essentially allow it to happen. do you feel as if the supreme court has constrained your ability to fight guns? >> look, i think -- it really doesn't do a whole lot. in maryland we have got some of the toughest gun laws in the country, but it hasn't stopped the shooting. 99% of the gun crimes that take place are all illegal guns. it has nothing to do with -- >> from states that don't have the maryland laws, correct? >> well, they're ghost guns and people trafficking and stolen guns. but the violent crime problem is real, and it doesn't have much to do with how you go about registration on concealed carry because the shooters, the repeat violent offenders, they don't follow gun laws. >> i hear you. but look at all these mass shootings. too many of them, they're always, oh, by the way, the gun was purchased legally. here you have states with red flag laws that can't be implemented. is that really the elixir? >> i sign a red flag law that does work in maryland.

so we aren't having some of those issues. i'm for universal background checks and for reasonable restrictions. i have always supported the right of law-abiding citizens to go through a process and be able to bear arms. but to do everything we possibly can to take guns away from the mentally ill and criminals. that's the problem in our state. our legislature keeps voting against penalties for people that shoot people with guns. >> do you think the supreme court has been too conservative, about right or maybe too activist? >> you know, i'm not sure if they have been activists or not and i'm not a constitutional scholar, but i think the supreme court and the people on there made decisions based on what their interpretation of the law was. a lot of people conflate how this came about, but a lot of these issues that hadn't been heard before they found a reason for taking action. >> do you worry it's become politicized, the court? >> i'm worried that the country is so dramatically divided and these issues will keep us divided.

you about i think the vast majority of people in america are frustrated and angry with all of the rhetoric on both sides. >> what about returning for president, what would make you not run? what about running for president, what would make you not run? >> i'm going to do the best job i can being governor until next january. i don't know what the future holds. but i think there are an awful lot of people. i would call them the exhaustive majority of americans frustrated with the far left and the far right and they want to see us go a different direction. i have seen nothing that would dissuade me -- there is a growing demand of what we have done in maryland. >> do you think donald trump will concede losing the primary. >> i'm hoping he won't be running and won't be the nominee if he does run. >> thank you, sir. >> when we come back, the trump white house counsel pat cipollone sat down with the january 6th committee last friday. we will talk about what cipollone told them and what we can expect from this week's hearings. cipollone told them and what we can expect from this week's

hearings

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welcome back. the january 6th committee is planning two more hearings. pat cipollone testified before the committee for seven hours on president trump's efforts to overturn the election. this week's first hearing will focus on mr. trump's connections to various extremist groups involved in the attack. it is being led by democrats jamie ras kin and stephanie murphy. welcome to "meet the press." >> thank you. >> let me start with pat cipollone's testimony. was it as critical as you thought it would be? >> of course it was. he had relevant information about what was happening in the white house. and we are really grateful he was willing to come before the committee and share that with us. there were areas he claimed privilege, but it was important for us to understand what the president's top legal adviser thought about the activities that were happening post-election and in the run-up to january 6th.

>> can you give me an ypd of what he would not touch? >> he claimed privilege on conversations that related to the advice he provided directly to the president or conversations with the president. but i think we still got a lot of relevant information from him. and it provides us another perspective on what was happening in the white house in those weeks running up to january 6th that were so critically important. >> i have seen some reports. other fellow committee members said mr. cipollone did not contradict previous witnesses. >> did he confirm information that cassidy hutchinson gave? >> he had a lot of information that fits into the puzzle that we're putting together. we have different voices telling about the same meeting and, more or less, telling the same narrative. of course you have to understand these are all folks who have had a year plus since the events, so everybody has a different level of memory or recall on specific details. but the overall message that we

have been gathering out of all of these witnesses is that the president knew he had lost the election or that his advisors had told him he lost the election and he was casting a ballot more ways in which he could retain power and remain the president despite the fact that the democratic will of the american people was to have president biden be the next elected president. >> was it clear that the president was told his actions that he wanted to take were illegal? >> i think he was given the best possible advice by very talented legal folks, both from barr at the department of justice as well as within the white house in legal counsel. and they gave him very strong advice. what we were able to ascertain from those folks is what their activities were, what they said. as you have seen in some of the hearings, they said in no unclear terms that these were things that -- these were lines that could not be crossed for the sake of democracy.

>> can you confirm if he said we're going to get charged with every crime imaginable? that was a big, important moment in cassidy hutchinson's testimony. were you able to have him confirm that that is a concern he had? >> we were able to get him to confirm the concerns that he did have. his reservations about some of the things that were happening. his desire not to be affiliated with, you know, some of the things. his desire to be on the record, have the -- >> with what? like what? the speech at the ellipse? >> well, the speech. he didn't attend the speech. >> did he try to get language struck out of it? >> you know, not to get too much into details, i think for legal counsel, they participated and perform the role they have when speeches do come to them. >> the jeffrey clark scheme, it was referred to that he called that a murder-suicide pact. were you able to get that?

>> he made it very clear that he thought, that the eastman theory which was this idea that the vice president could somehow unilaterally declare the president the president-elect or that the pressure on the department of justice, he sided with the department of justice on their findings of no fraud in the election. he made very clear that he took the side of many folks you have already seen come before the committee and was asserting there wasn't enough evidence to prove that the election was not free and fair. and the right thing to do for democracy is to have a peaceful transfer of power, especially after december 14th when the states have certified their electors. >> one of the more striking responses to supposedly things that mr. cipollone said was from jared kushner. the' -- it's clip we've seen a lot. i want to play it.

>> i know that, you know, he was always -- him and the team were always saying, we're going to resign. we're not going to be here if this happens, if that happens. so i just took it up to just be whining, to be honest with you. >> number one, did mr. cipollone have any reaction that his threats to resignation were chalked up to whining? >> i think when you look at legal advice that's given -- because you have to understand. mr. cipollone wanted to see president trump succeed, so he was giving him the best legal advice he could to ensure his success. if he got to a place where he felt like he couldn't morally stand by some sort of action, resigning isn't an act of whining. it is a ultimate protest that what -- that his advice was being ignored and what the president moved forward with was something he didn't want to be associated with. i'm not sure i would have characterized it as whining. >> let's go to your hearing on tuesday. are we going to see much of mr. cipollone's testimony?

on tuesday, or the first hearing this week? >> we are always receiving new information from a lot of different sources, and we are trying to pull the information that the american people most need to hear. and i imagine you will be hearing things from mr. cipollone but also from others that were in the white house. the focus of this next hearing will be on the domestic violent extremists, as well as members of congress, people that the president called in to assist him in this pressure campaign. and this pressure campaign is a follow on to the previous hearings where we talked about how the president pressured the vice president, pressured the department of justice, pressured state election and electors to just call the race in his favor. and he, in the waning days leading up to the january 6th called in additional support. >> congressman raskin called it convergence, these groups and the proud boys and the oathkeepers, what they were doing here. they wouldn't be here without

the president wanting them here. but are you going to be able to provide evidence that's more than convergence, that there was an absolute understanding as to why the president invited them to washington. >> without spoiling anything that comes this week and encouraging folks to tune in to the specifics, what i will say is we will lay out the body of evidence that we have that talks about how the president's tweet on the wee hours of december 19th of be there, be wild was a siren call to these folks. and we'll talk in detail about what caused them to do, how that caused them to organize, as well as who else was amplifying that message. >> and you have evidence of specific members of congress were somehow involved in amplifying and encouraging these groups to come? >> yes. i think all of that is quite public. they were public about their efforts to amplify the president's call to use january 6th as a last stand in this effort to remain as president. >> congresswoman murphy, appreciate you coming in. >> so great to be with you.

>> all right. we'll be watching this week. thanks. when we come back, is president biden the democrats' best bet in 2024? the panel is next. president biden the democrats' best bet in 2024 the panel is next.

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welcome back. hallie jackson, mark leibovich and author. of the new book "thank you for your servitude." and danielle gibbs. the executive vice president of the center for american progress. since the first half of our show was about sort of the hand wringing going on inside the democratic party, danielle, i'll let you get first crack here which is what is the issue at the white house? are they not meeting the moment? are expectations too high on the left? what say you? >> maybe it is a little bit of both. look, it is a national past time here in d.c. to talk about democrats infighting, you know. i was using the analogy the other day.

>> dems in disarray. >> that is totally a hashtag thing in this town to say. we went out and bought a house and they're sitting outside arguing what color to paint it. meanwhile, the republican party is outside burning it down. that is how we view this argument. there are bigger fish to fry. what you need to be doing is focussed in laser beam on november. that is what is most important and maybe let the american people know there is a big choice. >> what are you hearing out of the white house? >> a couple things. there is -- i think there is a frustration, obviously. there is also a sense of like, listen, we are doing stuff. people just don't see it necessarily or people don't see how engaged the president is. it is not a shock to you, chuck, that that is what the president is saying. in defense of president biden. on the flip side, i was speaking with a democratic member of congress who said there is frustration. first you have front liners, the more moderate folks who feel like he has to be doing more on the economy.

there is a sense that there is an objectively good jobs report out on friday. why didn't the president do more to highlight it? he talked about it, yes. on the other side, you have the progressives saying abortions, guns, where are you on that. yes, he did that event this past week. but there is a sense i heard from people saying where was this the day the supreme court made the decision. why aren't you doing x, y and z? the white house said, listen, we had things ready to go the day the decision came down, we're working on it. we have our legal team doing it. it is not like we're hearing these suggestions and ignoring it. >> guess who has seen this vacuum? it is gavin newsom. i want to play this ad he's running in florida. >> freedom is under attack in your state. i urge all of you living in florida to join the fight or join us in california where we still believe in freedom, freedom of speech, freedom from hate and the freedom to love. don't let them take your freedom. >> now, look, we can carve this up two ways, mark. he's trying to pick fights with

trump. he's trying to pick a fight with desantis. but the messaging in there was fascinating. i think that's what you hear from democrats. why isn't the white house -- this is what he says. where is the party? this is him saying, hey, guys, look, try this message. >> exactly. i don't think he cares about whether ten people in florida move to california. his message is to go national with these ads, get the attention of the white house. and, look, it is a compelling message. good afternoon newsom, with all due respect to president biden, gavin newsom delivers it a lot more compelling than a guy who has been on the national stage for as long as the current president is. look, i think it is very effective. i think it's a vacuum that is being filled and i think this is probably a product of its own weakness from the white house. >> rich, we will get to the republican leadership problems in the next block, but it does feel as if republicans only will have themselves to blame if they

can't counter this. >> uh-huh. well, i think the newsom thing is just to promote himself and to get us chatting about what is working. >> the freedom is a fascinating thing to reclaim that word. >> he will have to work hard to reclaim that given the policy in california. there was this period with people puffing him up into something he wasn't. now there is a period of existential despair when people realize what he is. he won the presidency by default. he is nearly 80 years old. it is not as though he hasn't said from my perspective incredibly, from my perspective, over the top things about guns and abortion and voting and everything people want him to rise to the moment on. he's not compelling or vigorous. that's just who he is and it's not going to get better. >> somebody said this to me. i think there is validity to it. that the single biggest thing that will stop this chatter about president biden in 2024 is if donald trump announces he's

running in 2024 because there is nothing like that in the eyes of some folks that will solidify the party around joe biden. and put away the demes in disarray hashtag, at least temporarily. >> all right. but i want to play this ad that's in north carolina. making it clear she doesn't want to be associated with either party. take a listen. >> we all know washington doesn't make a lot of sense. so why send the same politicians and expect it to change? special interests have too much party and neither political party is getting it right. >> clearly, look, that's the only way she's going to get to 50% in that state. we know those last 5% of voters in north carolina. can democrats succeed and distance themselves from washington at the same time? >> yes, they can because politics are local. this is a local election about what's happening in north carolina. she needs to state clearly what she is going to do to deliver for the people in her state, how she will differentiate herself and what's happening in d.c. this is a tale as old as time, people running away from the current occupant of the white

house and people saying how they will be different. >> which never works. it never works. if the president is at 38%, it doesn't matter. >> they never had the attention around gun violence happening. i think this is different than other mid-term elections. >> the face of the opposition party remains donald trump. you can go to the middle of the charlotte airport and say, hey, there will be a rematch between donald trump and joe biden. in two years. how do you feel about this? i guarantee you, seven out of ten of them will say oh, like kill me now. this is not an appealing message from the defining figures of both parties right now. >> i guess the other thing is is there any way they change this narrative? you said it has to be trump that has to announce. >> i think gina is struck she acknowledged to you pretty clear that inflation is the reason why so many people are unhappy with the state of the country right

now. what's that face? >> i don't get why they haven't done some of these small things. they proposed a gas tax holiday, right? >> you asked her about that, right? i think, to me, when i have conversations with folks here who are lawmakers say it is so much about the economy and inflation. it is about the supreme court decision, but i think there is still a question at least for now. at to how much it will drive people to polls. you heard that in the opening piece. >> last week 5% of people it is a top issue, abortion, 5%. we will find out there. i don't understand some ideas to tackle inflation are too small to have an impact. others are small but let's see if it has an impact. they don't seem to have the same story for every idea out there. when we come back, a story that takes more than 280 characters to tell. elon musk is trying to drop out of his deal to buy twitter. why this matters.

of his deal to buy twitter why this matters

welcome back. elon musk is a man who makes headlines, a few bigger that he announced on friday, that he wants out of his deal to buy twitter, to take it private. what happened and why? kara, welcome back to the show. this feels like the most predictable potential next thing that was going to happen the day he decided to buy it. >> yeah.

>> so you are probably not surprised. but is he still going to own twitter anyway? >> well, if a court makes him buy it right now. i mean, i think that's what it's going to go to. it is all a legal proceeding now. it will be hard for the court to force someone to pay that much money for something and it is a little unprecedented. of course they have elon musk who likes to fight. he will fight with the dell care courts, with twitter, he will fight publically. it could be a big mess and everyone might want to have him pay the billion dollar breakup fee and go. if twitter presses it, he may have to pay more. to try to get out of this deal. >> what does this mean for twitter? this is a public square that there is political debate that sparked from it. it matters to a small group of people, but it matters a lot. what happens to the company? what's to the product? -- what happens to the product? >> nothing good comes out of

this elon musk is bored routine. he's interested in the company because he likes the product but a lot of this has become a ridiculous circus. i think it's not good for twitter. it puts them in a bad position to have to do this lawsuit, especially with someone that doesn't care and attacks them on their own platform. it is kind of ironic in a weird way. it is not good for them. they never had a strong business, which is one of the reasons someone like elon musk or another buyer could do something with it. it is a small, small business. for years it's underperformed, whether it is the stock or the revenues and this and that. there was a lot of promise here of possibility but nothing good is going to come of this for them and being in court against someone like that is not good for the business, not good for employee retention, not good for branding, advertisers, not good. >> bad for twitter, good for who? is this a boom for tiktok, instagram? who? >> i guess. i guess.

they're just watching quietly from the sidelines while this goes on. it can't be good. they weren't much of a competitor to facebook and tiktok. tiktok has been growing like crazy. even snapchat was doing well until the recent downtown. everyone has been hit hard in the recent stock sell-off. they were all doing fine without twitter so it is not really going to affect them. >> all right. all i know is it is elon musk which we will all be paying a lot of attention to this drama. >> maybe not now, chuck. >> all right. fair enough. kara, you always make us smarter. thank you. when we come back, a conservative party dumps its leader after a series of scandals and embarrassment. stay with us. scandals and embarrassment stay with us

when traders tell us how to make thinkorswim® even better, we listen. like jack. he wanted a streamlined version he could access anywhere, no download necessary. and kim. she wanted to execute a pre-set trade strategy in seconds. so we gave 'em thinkorswim® web. because platforms this innovative aren't just made for traders -they're made by them. thinkorswim® by td ameritrade welcome back. now to the republicans. so, rich, there was a scandal plague and embarrassing leader of the conservative party in the u.k. and there was finally the enough is enough moment and they got rid of boris.

you know, arguably mitch mcconnell had a moment where he could have done the same thing, essentially the vote of no confidence. we're dumping our leader. he can never be leader again. this american conservative party hasn't done it, why? >> one, it is a different system. two, the british torrys have an ingrained culture of zabbing their leaders in the back and in the front without compunction. that's not the way it works in our system. at the end of the day, the issue is trump has significant hold on republican voters. and critics of trump, enemies of trump want him to go away. they need to remind themselves the people they need to convince, fence sitting republicans. they vote for him twice. they like him. they're entertained by him. they hate the media, and they think trump is often attacked unfairly. from my perspective, the person most likely to win those voters

from twufrm is someone who trump could hate as well, someone like ron desantis rather than a liz cheney. >> i think that's right. you talked about that gavin newsom ad. you talked about the way that desantis has become the -- and this is -- think of a way to put it, but if donald trump doesn't run, does ron desantis take that mantle? it's a different system he's got. i he's got a small group of people around him. it is not like donald trump where it is a sprawling group of advisers. tons of people talking about his plans. if you look at 2024, i think mike pence will clearly run. i do not think as much as mike pence wants to have a hold on the maga members of the republican party, he does not. that's a question mark. even evangelical republicans he can make a case to. for broad appeal is going to be it for him. >> let's get to your book because in many ways you get the explanation for why what happened in the u.k. isn't yet happening here.

i want to start with this excerpt because i think it gets at the core of republicans not understanding what's happening. if you are a republican in washington, the idea is basically to make yourself as much of a d-head as possible in order to get attention and impress the biggest d-head of all, the guy sitting in the white house. finish the anecdote for me. >> i'm not going to finish the d-head. >> he would not put his name on the quote. explain to me what he told you. >> because he said he might have to lobby some day. that made the point for me in this book. conversations like that happen again and again in this book. "thank you for your servitude." you see the gap between, one, what republicans will say publically and privacy play out again and again and again. it is not like there is not a tradition of republicans pushing back on the leadership of their

party in america. i mean, the person -- the private view of republicans towards this president is extremely harsh. it is extremely mocking. and, look, politicians will always say different things in public and private before different audiences. i have never seen a gap wider than this. >> okay. but did this outgoing member of congress understand the fact that he saw his service in congress as a bridge to lobbying, does he not understand that's why trump was able to get these to hold? did he understand that part of the joke? >> apparently not. that literally is the problem. i think you're right. like republicans have to figure out what's more important to them. is it the immediacy of the power or do they care about their legacy? do they care about what history books write about them? i'm like of course they don't care. it's been shown over and over again. it is more important for them to

win the election than to, i don't know, stand up for democracy. >> lindsey graham told you i have never been called this much by a president in my life. he was addicted. >> they're all addicted. there are any number of psychological reasons why people do certain things, you know, and make decisions like this. it is funny. rich and i were in the green room before when governor hogan said well, republicans need to figure out what they need to do. it's like, it's been seven years. i mean, based on the precedence of recent history, the republican m.o. in dealing with donald trump fecklessness. in doing this book, i learned this over and over and over again, and i don't think the revolution will be led by lindsey graham or kevin mccarthy or mitch mcconnell. look, they have had the chance to do it over and over and over again. if he can survive january 6th and for a few days it looked like he wasn't and look where he is today. >> if he runs will somebody explain to me how he accepts losing? >> you know the answer to that question.

>> that's a big conundrum. i think there is maybe 15% chance he doesn't run. but -- but very likely he's in. >> that was the only answer is death. how many times did you get that. >> the only plan we have is a former republican congressman. we have no plan for this except sitting around hoping he dies. again, these conversations -- it's depressing but it is a fun book and has a great feature. but, no, these conversations happen over and over again. and what casts sharp releave over the last few months is you see what's happening on the january 6th commission, the courage that actually does happen in conservative circles, is cast in receive leaf with the leadership of the republican party. >> it is both a fun read, as you said and absolutely infuriating. congratulations. that's all we have for today. thank you for watching. remember, if it's sunday, it's "meet the press."

remember, if it's sunday, it's "meet the press. good morning. we're following several major developments with the january 6 committee. former trump aide steve bannon now says he's willing to testify. former trump white house counsel pat cipollone has already testified behind closed doors. while a former member of one of the extremist groups that led the attack is set to appear as a witness at the next hearing scheduled for tomorrow. we will break down what all of this means for the investigation. plus, secretary of state tony blinken takes an unexpected detour to tokyo, as he